64. 女性是否被要求比男性更友善？

我非常想强烈同意你的观点。

I would like to violently agree with you.

太好了。

Yay.

但在强烈同意之前，我想先强烈反对一下。

But before I violently agree, I would like to violently disagree.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

嘿。

Hey.

我是安吉拉·达克沃斯。

I'm Angela Duckworth.

我是史蒂文·杜布纳。

I'm Steven Dubner.

你正在收听

And you're listening

到任何愚蠢的问题。

to no stupid questions.

今天在节目中，友善有多重要？

Today on the show, how important is it to be nice?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我太兴奋了。

I'm so excited.

你赢了游泳比赛。

You won the swim meet.

好的。

Okay.

告诉我一切。

Tell me everything.

另外，读书在道德上是否优于消费其他形式的媒体？

Also, is reading books somehow morally superior to consuming other forms of media?

有人炫耀说他们今年计划读超过30本书。

Someone was bragging that they were on track to read over 30 books this year.

我开玩笑说，我今年计划看300个YouTube视频。

I joked that I was on track to watch 300 of YouTube.

所以，安吉拉，我们收到了很多听众发来的有趣邮件，我非常感激。

So, Angela, we get a lot of interesting emails from our listeners for which I'm grateful.

偶尔，也会有人评论说，他们非常喜欢我们的互动氛围，因为有点甜中带酸。

And, occasionally, there's a comment to the effect that they enjoy our dynamic so much because it's a little sweet and sour.

他们说，你不仅非常聪明，而且特别友善，而我呢，不仅没那么聪明，还刻薄、爱讽刺、态度消极。

They say that you, in addition to being so smart, are also so nice, while I, in addition to being less smart, am also mean or snarky or negative.

尖酸、讽刺、爱批评。

Acerbic, sarcastic, critical.

我只是在猜而已。

I'm just guessing.

也许这些邮件都是你写的。

Maybe you're the one writing all these emails.

所以，不管这是否真实，它让我开始思考，当你想要传达一个信息时。

So whether or not this is true, it did make me wonder when you have a message to get across.

‘友善’有多重要？

How important is, quote, being nice?

我特别好奇这与性别有多大关系。

And I'm particularly curious the degree to which this is gender related.

女性是否必须友善，而男性却可以肆无忌惮地刻薄？

Are women required to be nice while men can get away with being mean?

嗯，我确实了解关于性别差异的文献，但就我个人而言，当我发表言论时，很多时候我都会考虑：我的话听起来怎么样？对方会有什么感受？

Well, I do know this literature on gender differences, but I think for my own self, when I say things, I do, a lot of the time, think how is this coming across, and what are the feelings of the person who's receiving them?

我并不总是这么做，但当我没这么做时，通常是因为我累了、饿了，心情不好，但我一直努力去做到。

I don't always do it, but usually when I don't do it, it's only because I'm tired, and I'm hungry, and I'm bad mood, but I tried to do it.

你呢？

What about you?

据说我小时候，至少还是个小男孩的时候，非常友善。

So I was reportedly very nice when I was younger, as a little boy at least.

谁说的？

Reported by whom?

我的家人。

My family.

我那时非常有礼貌、合作且顺从。

And I was very polite and cooperative and obedient.

我觉得自己并没有变得刻薄，尽管我现在确实比小时候更愿意说出自己的想法。

And I don't feel like I turned mean, although I do think I am much more willing to say what I'm thinking now than I was when I was a child.

另一方面，我的工作就是观察世界的发展、人们的行为以及各种观点，并对它们提出质疑。

On the other hand, what I do for a living is try to look at the way the world is going, look at what people are doing, look at the ideas that are out there, and challenge them.

并不是说：‘你太糟糕了。’

So it's not saying, oh, you're terrible.

你很愚蠢。

You're stupid.

而是更像在问：‘你怎么知道这是真的？为什么你确信这是个好主意？’等等。

It's more like saying, how do you know that's the case, and why are you sure that this is a good idea and so on?

所以，是的，我认为提问是我性格中不可或缺的一部分，这些问题有时可能会显得有点消极或讽刺。

So, yeah, I guess I feel that part and parcel of who I am is to ask questions that might occasionally feel a little bit negative or snarky.

我要说的是，这并不让我困扰。

And I will say this, it doesn't bother me.

也许它应该让我困扰，但我内心深处觉得自己是个相对善良、有爱心的人，所以我并不觉得有太大冲突。

Maybe it should, but I feel that deep down, I am a relatively kind and loving person, so I don't feel a big conflict.

但我很好奇，为什么你的印象是，我和你相比，显得有点像食人魔，而你却显得有点像圣人，而我对这种印象并不在意。

But I am curious that the perception is such that I, compared to you especially, seem a little bit ogre ish, whereas you seem a little bit saintly, and I'm okay with that.

我当然也完全接受这种印象。

I'm definitely okay with that.

当你说到提问是你的工作的一部分时，比如，我是一名记者。

Now when you say it's part of your job to ask critical questions, like, I'm a journalist.

我需要质疑一切，需要让你审视自己的假设，找出你论点中的逻辑漏洞。

I need to question everything, and I need to get you to examine your own assumptions and ferret out the logical kinks in your argument.

你有没有办法在做你的工作的同时，传达出我是你的盟友，而不是敌人？

Is there a way that you can do your job and at the same time signal I'm an ally, not a foe?

我觉得我天生就会这么做。

I think I do innately try to do that.

事实上，问题越尖锐，我越努力做到——也许‘温暖’这个词不太准确，但至少不会显得敌对或具有对抗性。

In fact, the harder the question is, the more I do try to be maybe not warm is the word I would use, but certainly not hostile, not confrontational.

我甚至会在提问前先说‘批评者可能会说’或‘我忍不住想’之类的，以表明我不是在咄咄逼人地针对对方。

And I might even preface a question by saying a critic might say or I can't help but think, etcetera, etcetera, just to show I'm not trying to aggressively line up against the person.

另一方面，我觉得你和我的对话更像是一般性的交谈。

The other hand, I think the conversations that you and I have are more like conversations.

所以，我可能会问你很多问题，但并不是在正式地采访你。

So I may be asking you a lot of questions, but I'm not interviewing you per se.

当你以记者的方式真正向某人提问时，我猜——这也是我会做的——不会一开始就抛出那些尖锐的问题。

When you are, like, actually asking somebody questions in a journalistic way, my guess would be, and this is what I would do, is I wouldn't start off with the really critical questions.

我想我会先用一些不太会引发激烈追问的问题来暖场，虽然我不太想用‘奉承’这个词。

I think I would warm them up with a lot of, like, I don't wanna say flattery, but questions that you're not gonna be asking a lot of challenging follow ups to.

这是你的策略吗？

Is that your strategy?

这确实是一种标准策略。

That is definitely a standard tactic.

我知道没有任何记者，在进行可能在某种程度上激怒受访者的采访时，不会尝试循序渐进。

I know of no journalist who, when they're having an interview, where they know that they're going to potentially antagonize the subject to some degree, where they don't try to ease into things.

因为如果你一上来就那样做，会让受访者进入防御状态。

Because if you start on that foot, it puts the subject on the defense.

而且说实话，即使我在质疑他们的结论时，我也尽量不让他们感到被攻击，因为我希望他们有机会充分表达自己的观点。

And, honestly, I try to never really put the subject on the defensive even if I'm challenging the findings because I want them to have an opportunity to really put their argument forward.

我的目的并不是要说：嘿。

My purpose is not to say, hey.

我认为我是对的，而你是错的。

I think I'm right, and you're wrong.

不过，偶尔我也会问一个问题，比如：你能解释一下为什么你在这个问题上没有错吗？因为我看不出其中的逻辑。

Although, occasionally, I will ask a question like, explain to me why you're not wrong about this because I'm not seeing the logic.

此外，我还会运用丹尼尔·卡尼曼和唐纳德·雷勒迈尔提出的‘峰值-终值理论’，这个理论源自一篇关于结肠镜检查的旧论文，意思是：如果你让一段负面体验的结尾变得更积极，那么整个体验就会被更正面地看待。

And then I also incorporate the old peak end theory from Danny Kahneman and Donald Rellmeyer having to do with this old paper about colonoscopies, which is if you make the ending of a negative experience more positive, then the entire experience will be viewed more positively.

因此，即使面对特别有争议或困难的采访，如果你能将其引导回一种合作与温暖的氛围，似乎就能缓解一些敌意。

And so even if there's a particularly contentious or difficult interview, if you can bring it back to a moment of collaboration and warmth, than it seems to distill the aggression a little bit.

顺便说一下，这常常受到批评。

This is often criticized, by the way.

当你给予某人反馈时，先说一些积极的话，然后讲一大堆你真正想表达的负面内容，最后再以积极的话收尾？

You know, when you're giving somebody feedback and you say something positive, and then you have all this negative stuff that you really wanted to say, and then you end with something positive?

对此有各种不同的说法。

There are various ways to describe it.

我经常听到它被称为‘三明治法’，但我认为这其实是个好方法，因为有PCM的支持。

I frequently heard it called a sandwich, but I think it's actually a good thing because of pcm.

在我看来，这在心理上是明智的。

That to me is psychologically wise.

如果它显得陈词滥调，那也只是因为它有效，所以我们才不断重复使用。

And if it's cliche, it's only because it's good, and therefore we keep doing it.

所以我很好奇，作为一位女性学者，你是否感受到，在职业环境中，人们期望你或你自身觉得有必要‘表现得友善’，因为女性往往因被认为不够友善而受到歧视，而男性却可以相对轻松地逃脱这种评判。

So I am really curious to know whether you have felt as a female academic that it is either expected of you or it's advantageous for you to, quote, be nice in a professional setting because women have often been discriminated against when they are perceived as less nice, whereas men can sort of get away with it.

通常，在社会认知——这是心理学家用来描述我们如何感知他人的专业术语——中，主导的理论框架认为，我们评判他人的一种方式是衡量对方是否温暖。

Usually, in social cognition, which is the fancy word psychologists use for how we perceive other people, the dominant theoretical framework is that one of the ways we judge people is how warm are you.

另一个维度是能力。

The other dimension is competence.

实际上，在一家工程公司进行过一项科学研究，这是一家总体上男性占主导的行业。

There's actually a scientific study at an engineering firm, very male dominated industry in general.

那里有男性和女性。

There were women and men.

作为他们日常绩效评估的一部分，他们收到了360度反馈。

And as part of their just general performance reviews, etcetera, they got three sixty feedback.

这项研究的设计包含了对能力和温暖度的评分。

The study design had ratings of competence and warmth.

你可以看到，男性被评价为自信，这也是收集的另一项评分。

And you see that men are rated as confident, which is another one of the ratings that was collected.

当男性被认为有能力时，他们就会被视为自信；但女性要被他人视为自信，只有在她们既表现出能力又表现出温暖时才成立。

Men are seen as confident if they are seen as competent, But women to be seen as confident by others, that is only true if you come across as both competent and warm.

我觉得希拉里·克林顿总是被描述为冷漠，但我一直不太理解这一点。

And I think about Hillary Clinton as always being described as cold, and I never really got that.

但对于女性来说，你必须既有能力、自信，又要非常、非常友善。

But for a woman, you have to be competent and confident and super, super nice.

我曾听一位政治专家解释说，选民不会投票给一个他们不喜欢的女性，即使认为她很有资格；但他们却会投票给一个他们不喜欢的男性，只要觉得他有资格。

I have seen it explained by one political expert that voters will not vote for a woman they don't like even if they think she is qualified, whereas they will vote for a man they do not like if they think he is qualified.

因此，很难不把这看作是一种惩罚。

And so it's hard not to take that as a penalty.

我认为确实存在一种期望，几乎是一种参照标准，即女性应该比男性展现出更高的亲和力。

I do think there is an expectation, a reference point almost, a kind of like, what should women be that is higher in warmth than it is for men?

一些科学家会说，这是因为事实上女性的同理心和亲和力基础水平确实高于男性。

And some scientists would say that's because it's actually true that women do have a baseline higher level of empathy and warmth than men.

我知道有一些研究涉及大脑中的多巴胺奖励系统，其中一些研究指出，当女性为他人做出亲社会行为——即利他而非自私的行为时，女性的奖励系统比男性更敏感。

I know there is research on, for example, the dopaminergic reward system in the brain, and some of this research would suggest that when a woman does something which is prosocial on behalf of another person, altruistic as opposed to selfish, the reward system is more sensitive in a woman than a man.

如果这是真的，而且普遍而言我们觉得女性更富有同理心、更温暖，那这或许就能解释为什么我们对女性有更高的要求。

If that's true and if it's generally true that we experience women being a little more empathic, a little more warm, that could be the explanation for why we demand it more.

当你看经济学时，这门学科传统上是非常非常男性化的，但过去一二十年来，女性参与度有所增加，但男女经济学家从事的工作类型一直存在分工。

When you look at economics, which traditionally was a very, very, very male field and has gotten somewhat more female over the last ten or twenty years, there's always been a division in the kinds of work that female and male economists do.

有些领域几乎完全由男性主导，而另一些领域则有更多女性经济学家。

There were some areas that remained almost exclusively male, and then some other areas where there were more female economists.

比如，克劳迪娅·戈尔丁是一位非常著名的劳动经济学家。

Claudia Golden, for instance, being a very prominent labor economist.

我相信她会认为，作为一名女性，她对劳动的整体看法略有不同，不仅包括企业中的工作，还包括女性在家庭中承担的、远多于男性的家务劳动。

She would argue, I believe, that as a woman, she had a little bit of a different view of labor across the board, not just jobs with firms, but also the work that women are doing in the home to a much greater extent than men are doing in the home.

当你现在观察经济学领域时，过去一二十年来，大多数致力于研究并大力推动全面改革、真正试图让经济对更多人更公平的经济学家，

When you look around economics now, most of the economists who have been researching and really pushing for holistic reforms over the past decade or two, really trying to make the economy fair to more people.

至少在我看来，其中绝大多数都是女性。

The vast majority of those economists that I see at least are women.

我想到了凯特·雷沃思、玛丽安娜·马祖卡托、珍妮特·耶伦这样的人。

I think of people like Kate Rayworth and Mariana Mazzuccato, Janet Yellen.

所以当你提到科学观察显示女性更具同理心时，我很好奇这究竟是一种特质，还是一种策略。

And so when you say that empathy is scientifically observed that women have more of it, I am curious whether it is trait or strategy.

无论如何，男性可以从中学到什么？

And whatever the case may be, what could or should men learn from that?

我不知道我们是否能真正厘清这些进化层面的问题，比如是否因为女性承担了照顾者的角色并生育后代。

I don't know whether we can ever tease apart these evolutionary questions of whether it's because women were in the caregiving role and we bear the young.

这些差异是因为这个原因，还是后天习得、塑造并由文化构建出来的特征？

Like, is that why there are these differences, or are they learned and shaped and constructed and, a feature of culture?

但对我来说，这显然更好。

But to me, it's clearly better.

这并不是说，你知道的，我说番茄。

It's not like, well, you know, I say tomato.

你说番茄。

You say tomato.

共情是好的。

Empathy is good.

关心他人是好的。

Caring about other people is good.

如果正如许多研究指出的那样，女性平均而言在合作、同理心、关怀和亲社会动机方面水平更高，那么真正的问题或许是：我们该如何帮助男性迎头赶上？

And if it's true, as many studies suggest that there are higher levels of cooperation, empathy, caring, prosocial motivation for women on average, then maybe the real question is, how do we help men catch up?

我们能否只是提高对男性应有表现的期望？

Can we just raise the expectations for what men should be?

但是，安吉拉，让我问你一个问题。

But, Angela, let me ask you this.

当出现矛盾或摩擦时，无论是人际关系、工作关系，还是其他情况，友善是反击或达成目标的好方法，还是应该暂时放下友善以实现目标？

When there's a problem or friction, whether it's a personal relationship, work relationship, whatever, is niceness a good way to fight back or to get the result you want, or is it better to put niceness aside to get the result you want?

我认为90%的情况下，友善能让你得到想要的结果。

I think that 90% of the time, niceness gets you what you want.

真的吗？

Wow.

我们的朋友鲍勃·西奥迪尼会说，这涉及互惠原则。

Our friend Bob Cialdini would say there's the principle of reciprocity.

你对某人友善，人们往往会不假思索地本能地回报以友善。

You start being nice to someone, and without thinking about it, people tend reflexively to be nice back.

也许有10%的时间，友善并不能让你如愿，这时你就需要以另一种方式展现出坚定。

And maybe 10% of the time, it doesn't get you what you want, and you have to be fierce in a different way.

比如，对我女儿们来说，当她们成长为年轻女性时，我想告诉她们：友善很棒，能友善就尽量友善，但也要记住，你并不总得友善，有时这并不是正确的做法。

And maybe the lesson for my daughters, for example, as they become young women is that being nice is great, and yay for being nice as much as you can, except remember that you don't always have to be nice, and that's not always the right thing to do.

我曾遇到过一些情况，我自认为对某人非常友善，但对方却没有回应。

I've been in situations where I am what I feel is very nice to someone, but then it's not reciprocated.

当发现对方没有回应时，我不会刻意变得不友善，但我会尽量避免再与这个人接触。

And when I find it's not reciprocated, then I don't go out of my way to be unnice, but I do try to avoid that person in the future.

那种友善被拒绝的感觉真的很不舒服。

There's a feeling of niceness being rejected that is really unpleasant.

现在想想，这可能不公平，因为也许对方只是心不在焉，或者今天过得不好。

Now it's probably not fair because maybe the person's distracted, having a bad day.

可能有成千上万种原因。

It could be a million things.

但当你觉得自己的友善没有被回应，甚至没有被注意到时，你会怎么做？

But what do you do when you feel that your niceness is not reciprocated or even acknowledged?

比如，你特意去为朋友买一个火鸡奶酪三明治，但他们从来不会给你买一个三明治。

Like, you go out of your way to pick up a turkey and cheese sandwich for a friend, and they never buy you a sandwich ever.

甚至连半个三明治都不会。

Not even half a sandwich.

就是类似这样的事。

Something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你真像我妈妈那样圣洁，你根本不会注意到。

If you were truly saint like like my mom, you wouldn't even notice.

你根本不会觉得任何人应该为你买三明治，哪怕你为他们做了那么多三明治。

You would never even think that somebody should ever get you a sandwich, as many sandwiches as you might make for them.

我认为大多数人并不是这样的，互惠原则也体现在我们期待别人回报我们的善意上。

I think that most human beings are not like that and that the principle of reciprocity works also in the direction of expecting somebody to reciprocate our kindness.

当他们没有回报时，我就和你一样感受，史蒂文。

And when they don't, I feel the way you do, Steven.

我热爱感恩。

I love gratitude.

当我做好事时，如果却感受不到感恩，就会想：等等。

And when I do nice things and there is the absence of gratitude, it's like, wait.

那封感谢邮件呢？

Where's the thank you email?

那个笑脸呢？

Where's the smiley face?

我有点生气。

I get a little annoyed.

而且，是的，这让我以后不太愿意再这么友善。

And, yes, it makes me not so inclined to be so nice in the future.

但你在这里说的是，友善是一种策略。

But what you're saying here is that niceness is strategic.

对吗？

Yes?

亚当·格兰特，我经常合作的共同朋友和科学家，会把这种过程的其余部分称为‘匹配’。

Adam Grant, common friend and scientist who I work with a lot, would say that this rest of process, he calls it matching.

你知道，我为你做了这件事。

You know, I did this for you.

你也应该为我做点什么。

You should do this for me.

真正的纯粹利他主义并不是这种‘匹配’。

And the true pure altruism is not matching.

它只是给予。

It's just giving.

就是说，我为你做这件事，就这么简单。

Like, I do this for you, period.

但真正的利他主义者，是人类中的独角兽吗？

But is the true altruist the unicorn of the human?

它真的存在吗？

Does it really exist?

我认为我们每个人都是匹配者和给予者的混合体，甚至我们内心还有一点点索取者的影子——那种只想要东西、完全不愿友善对待他人的人。

I think we're all of us, some blend of a matcher and a giver, and even some little part of us is a taker, somebody who just wants stuff and doesn't wanna be nice at all.

我们内心都同时具备这三种特质。

We have all three of these things in us.

希望我们的比例是：给予者占大多数，匹配者有一些，而索取者尽可能少。

Hopefully, we have them in a ratio which is mostly giver, some matcher, and hopefully not very much taker.

但我确实认为，除了家庭之外，比如除了你的孩子或配偶，期待某种互惠是合乎逻辑的。

But I do think that outside of family, like outside of your own children or your spouse, the idea that there'd be some expectation of reciprocity is just logical.

你为什么不说声谢谢呢？

Why wouldn't you say thank you back?

或者，我的三明治在哪？

Or, like, where's my sandwich?

亚当·格兰特其实有一个观点，叫‘不讨人喜欢的给予者’，指的是那些在做出贡献、做有益事情的同时，可能有点儿不讨人喜欢、脾气暴躁的人。

Adam Grant actually has this idea of being a disagreeable giver that is somebody who's making a contribution and doing things that are helpful, but they might be a little bit disagreeable, cranky.

我认为当亚当宣扬这一点时，他说这些人就是敢于直言真相的人，而他自己就非常擅长成为不讨人喜欢的给予者。

And I think when Adam evangelizes about this, like, oh, they're the ones to call things as they are, and he himself has a very high capacity for being a disagreeable giver.

我认为，作为一个男性，他做这件事更容易些，如果他是女性，就没那么容易了。

I do think that it's easier for him to do that as a guy than it would be if he were a woman.

我想知道，有多少次会出现这样一位女性，她虽然不太讨喜，但非常高效，最终为团队做出了贡献，而大家还是会说：‘不过我们还是很高兴她能在团队里。’

And I wonder how often there's, like, a disagreeable but really productive, ultimately contributing woman who everyone's like, but we're still glad to have her on the team.

我认为，社会对女性有着更高的期待，要求她们始终考虑你的感受，考虑事情会带来怎样的影响。

I do think there is a much higher expectation that women are gonna be always thinking about how you feel, how things land.

所以，再次强调，我不知道解决方案是什么。

And so, again, I don't know what the solution is.

我宁愿男性变得更友善，也不愿降低对女性的要求。

I would rather men be nicer than for us to lower the threshold for women.

你认为，更可能发生的是男性变得更友善，还是女性在不被‘礼貌’对待时不再受到惩罚？

What do you think is more likely that men will become nicer or that women will become less penalized when they're not being, quote, nice?

我认为男性已经在变得更有礼貌了。

I think men are already becoming nicer.

我不确定。

I don't know.

也许是因为我嫁给了这样一个特别友善的家伙。

Maybe it's because I'm married to one of these guys who's just so nice.

我认为我们正进入一个文化阶段，传统的性别角色正在彻底模糊、交换、颠倒。

I do think that we are entering a cultural chapter where the traditional gender roles are absolutely blurring, trading, flip flopping.

我看到越来越多的男性公开认同自己是温暖、亲社会、富有同理心的人，我认为这是正确的方向。

And I see men more and more take public identities as being warm, prosocial, empathic human beings, and I think that's the right direction.

所以，我们这场对话的主旨其实是：男性比以前想象的更出色。

So the headline really of this conversation that we're having is men are more awesome than previously thought.

或者说，男性终于赶上了。

Or men are finally catching up.

接下来在《没有愚蠢的问题》节目中，史蒂文和安吉拉将探讨阅读书籍与听播客或观看纪录片的内在价值。

Still to come on No Stupid Questions, Steven and Angela debate the inherent value of reading books versus listening to podcasts or watching documentaries.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

为什么有人会为了娱乐而这么做呢？

Why would anyone want to do that for pleasure?

史蒂文，我们收到了一封来自约翰·B的邮件。

Steven, we got an email from a John b.

你好，约翰·B。

Hello, John b.

约翰写道：我对社会对阅读的崇敬感到困惑。

John writes, I have a problem with society's reverence for reading.

最近我参加了一场对话，有人炫耀自己今年计划读完30多本书。

I was part of a conversation recently where someone was bragging that they were on track to read over 30 books this year.

我开玩笑说，我今年计划看300个小时的YouTube视频。

I joked that I was on track to watch three hundred hours of YouTube.

关于哪种方式更值得花时间，双方产生了一些分歧。

There was a, quote, disagreement, unquote, over which was a better use of time.

我主张，那些花时间观看优质纪录片、解说视频和科学实验的人，比那些花同等时间阅读超市结账台廉价小册子的人获得的收获更多。

I argued that someone who watches hours of quality documentaries, explainer videos, and science experiments on a screen is getting more enrichment than someone who spends an equivalent amount of time reading supermarket checkout line paperbacks.

我并不是在贬低读这类书的人，但我认为这不值得为此自鸣得意。

I'm not putting down anyone that reads books like this, but I don't believe it's something to get on your high horse about.

我们花了很多时间告诉人们要远离屏幕去读书。

We spend a lot of time telling people to get off the screen and read.

我想知道，在印刷术刚发明的时候，是否也有人告诉人们放下书本，去篝火旁讲故事呢？

I wonder if there was a time right after the printing press was invented where people were told to put the book down and go tell a story around the campfire.

大概在1475年，某个父亲可能会对他的孩子说：那本书会把你脑子搞坏的。

Some dad back in 1475 probably told his kid, that book is gonna rot your brain.

我想听听你对这件事的看法。

I'm curious about your take on this.

我超喜欢John B。

I love John B.

我知道。

I know.

对吧？

Right?

所以目前我不确定自己站在哪一边，因为我曾经写过书，现在却做广播和播客。

So I'm not sure which camp I'm in at the moment because I'm a person who used to write books, and now I make radio and podcasts.

是的。

Yeah.

这是真的。

That is true.

你就是问题的一部分。

You're part of the problem.

我就是问题的一部分。

I am part of the problem.

所以几年前，《Slate》杂志上有一篇由冯·贝尔撰写的文章，他是伦敦大学学院的神经科学家和临床心理学家。

So there was an article several years ago in Slate by Von Bell, who's a neuroscientist and clinical psychologist at UCL University College London.

文章标题是《别碰那个旋钮》：从印刷术到Facebook的媒体技术恐慌史。

It was called Don't Touch That Dial, a history of media technology scares from the printing press to Facebook.

正如约翰所说，确实一直有人在大声疾呼这类问题，但这种现象早在印刷术之前就存在了。

And it is indeed true, as John said, that there have been people shouting about this kind of thing, but it precedes the printing press.

苏格拉底曾著名地警告不要写作，因为这会让学习者的心灵变得健忘，因为他们不再需要运用自己的记忆。

So Socrates famously warned against writing because it would create forgetfulness in the learner's souls because they wouldn't have to use their memories.

很有趣。

Interesting.

苏格拉底希望你把一切都记在脑子里，从不写下来。

Socrates wanted you to just commit everything to memory and never write it down.

我的意思是，这些文化中存在着口述传统和口述历史，人们以讲述故事、背诵家谱等能力为荣。

I mean, these were cultures where there was an oral tradition and oral history, and you were prided on your ability to tell stories, to recite genealogies, and so on.

至于印刷术本身，有一位名叫康拉德·格斯纳的瑞士科学家，他可能是最早对信息过载影响发出警告的人。

And then in terms of the printing press itself, there was a Swiss scientist named Conrad Gessner who may have been the first to raise the alarm about the effects of information overload.

他在1545年写了一本具有里程碑意义的书，描述了现代世界如何用海量数据压垮人们，这种信息过载令人困惑并对心智有害。

He wrote a landmark book in 1545 describing how the modern world was overwhelming people with data and that this overabundance was confusing and harmful to the mind.

到了十八世纪，随着报纸日益普及，有人提出观点认为，从印刷页面获取新闻会使读者感到社会孤立，削弱了从教堂获取新闻这一具有社会性乃至精神提升意义的群体活动，因为教堂历来是传播某些类型信息的渠道。

And then in the eighteenth century, as newspapers were becoming more common, there was this argument that getting news from the printed page was socially isolating to readers, and it detracted from the socially and, I guess, spiritually uplifting group practice of getting news from the church because the church was always a disseminator of certain kinds of information.

所以，这是一个源远流长的故事。

So this is an age old story.

但在我看来，如果这可以称为一个问题的话，约翰的问题在于他不喜欢读者们所占据的道德制高点。

But it sounds like John's problem here, if I may call it a problem, is that he doesn't like the moral high ground that readers seem to take.

所以对约翰来说，一个安慰的事实是，几乎没有人真正读书。

So one consolation to John would be the fact that almost nobody actually reads books.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

这是我最喜欢的一个故事，讲的是人们读得有多少，即使是那些买书的人。

So here's my favorite story about how little people read, even the people who buy books.

英国有一个奖项。

There is a prize in England.

它以前叫曼·布克奖。

It used to be called the Mann Booker Prize.

我想现在名字有点变了。

I think the name has changed a little bit now.

我觉得现在就叫布克奖。

I think it's just the Booker Prize.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我觉得曼恩实际上是个赞助商。

Because I think Mann was actually a sponsor.

哦，我本来想说曼恩做了些糟糕的事，然后被抵制了。

Oh, I was gonna say Mann did something terrible and got canceled.

也可能是因为这个。

It could also be that.

我不确定。

I don't know.

但曾经有个实验，据我所知，他们把那本获奖小说拿去，让一个调皮的人——可能是《卫报》这样的报纸——在书的中间夹了一张可以兑换20英镑的优惠券，想看看买了这本书的人有多少会去兑换。

But there was an experiment in which I believe it was the winning book that someone cheeky, it might have been a newspaper like The Guardian, went into bookstores and put a coupon that was redeemable for £20, something like that, into the middle of the book to see how many people who bought it actually would redeem it.

可以说，那个搞这个调皮举动的人根本没花多少钱。

And let's just say that whoever pulled that cheeky stunt did not have to pay out very much money.

很多因为这本书是获奖作品而买它的人，根本没读到第184页。

Many of the people who bought the book because it was the prize winning book never got to page whatever it was, 184.

这太聪明了。

That is so clever.

由于电子书如Kindle的发明，我们现在有了更全面、系统和完整的数据，来分析人们阅读了多少内容，以及阅读了哪些书的哪些部分。

And because of the invention of electronic books like Kindle, there's actually been much more comprehensive, systematic, and complete data analysis on how much people read and then how much of which books people read.

我认为《哈利·波特》系列是被阅读最多的书。

I think Harry Potter books are the most read.

人们会购买它们，并且读完它们。

People buy them, and they finish them.

我认为有些书像《混沌》这样的，你一听就觉得不错。

And I think there are books like Chaos where you're like, that sounds good.

我真该去学学牛顿力学之类的。

I really should learn about Newtonian mechanics or whatever.

但人们往往只读了前三段，就再也不看了。

And then people read the first three paragraphs, and then that's it.

但我一直觉得，要登上《纽约时报》畅销书榜其实只需要很少的销量。

But I always wondered you know, it takes so little to be on the New York Times bestseller list.

当我的出版商告诉我，你只需要在一周内卖出几千本，而不是几十万本时。

When my publisher told me that you have to sell thousands of books in a given week, not hundreds of thousands of books.

我一直在想全球人口和美国人口，当时我以为要登上《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜榜首，那一周至少得卖出十五万本书，但其实并不是这样。

I was thinking about the population of the globe, of The United States, and I was like, oh, you must have to sell a 150,000 books to be number one on The New York Times bestseller list that week, and that's not true.

首先，纽约时报的畅销书榜单很有趣，因为现在有非常多的榜单。

So first of all, the New York Times bestseller lists are interesting because there are now many lists.

有精装本、平装本、如何类等等，这意味着要登上任何一个榜单都容易多了。

There's hardcover, softcover, how to, etcetera, etcetera, which means that it's a lot easier to make any one list.

但我还记得《魔鬼经济学》第一周我们卖出了多少本，那真让人兴奋，因为那是我的第一本《纽约时报》畅销书。

But I do remember the number of copies of Freakonomics that we sold the first week, and it was thrilling because this was my first New York Times bestseller.

我记得大概是两万三千册左右，你知道，从某种角度来说，这已经是一本相当畅销的书了。

I believe it was something like 23,000 copies, which, you know, is, in some ways, a lot of copies of a book.

但在YouTube排名前一千的视频中，我猜每三分之一秒就有超过两万五千人正在观看。

But of the top thousand videos on YouTube, I'm guessing there are more than 25,000 people watching it every third of a second.

所以这一切都是相对的。

So it's all relative.

这还是很久以前的事了，那时候纸质书的购买和销售量可能更大。

And this was a while ago when there were probably more hard copies of books being bought and sold.

这让我们登上了《纽约时报》畅销书排行榜第五名，我想。

That got us to, like, number five, I think, on the New York Times bestseller list.

所以如果你看整个人群的数据，真正读书的人非常非常少。

So if you look at the data across the population, very, very few people read books.

所以我会对约翰说，别担心。

So I would say to John, b, don't sweat it.

你在这里属于赢家团队。

You're on the winning team here.

所以如果你因为不读书而感到愧疚，没关系，因为你其实属于大多数。

So if you feel bad about not being a reader, it's okay because you really are in the majority.

你觉得现在人们从你产出的内容中获得的东西，比你以前写的要少还是多？

Do you think that people are getting less or more out of what you're producing now compared to what you were writing before?

这是个有趣的问题，有多种答案。

It is an interesting question with a lot of answers.

对我来说，制作每周一期的《魔鬼经济学》播客，与每四五年写一本《魔鬼经济学》书之间，一个很大的区别是：当你做每周节目时，你的观众会一直跟随你。

One big factor for me of making a weekly Freakonomics radio podcast versus writing a Freakonomics book every four or five years is that when you make a weekly show, your audience travels with you.

所以大多数听播客的人会订阅，或者现在人们更倾向于用‘关注’这个词，因为‘订阅’让人觉得要付费，而大部分内容其实是免费的。

So most people who listen to podcasts subscribe, or these days, they're changing the word to follow because subscribe connotes that you pay, and most of it is free.

所以如果大多数人关注你，他们的手机或电脑通常会自动获取下一集，虽然不是所有情况都如此。

So if most people follow you, their phone or their computer automatically gets the next one, in most cases, not in all cases.

而每当你写一本书，那需要非常、非常、非常长的时间，你得对整个世界说：嘿，世界。

Whereas every time you write a book, which takes a long, long, long time, have to sort of say to the universe, hey, universe.

是我。

It's me.

我写了一本我们称之为书的东西，你必须努力找到这些人，提醒他们还存在一种叫书的东西，并告诉他们去哪里购买。

I've written this thing that we call a book, and you have to try to find these people and remind them that there is a thing called a book and that this is where you can go to buy it.

另一点是我最喜欢写作的部分——那就是采访。

The other thing is my favorite part of writing was always interviewing.

我热爱采访的原因是，我觉得对话——就像我们现在正在进行的这场对话——尽管我现在确实说得很多，但其中有一种奇妙的化学反应。

And what I loved about interviewing is I feel like conversations, like this conversation that we're having, although I'm certainly dominating right now, there is something alchemical about it.

当两个人交流思想、相互挑战时，会发生一些特别的事情。

There's something that happens when two people are exchanging ideas and challenging and so on.

但我讨厌将采访内容转化为文章或书籍的写作过程，因为太多背景信息被遗漏了。

And what I disliked about the writing process turning that interview into an article or a book, is that so much context got omitted.

因此，我觉得音频格式在某些方面更胜一筹，因为对听众而言，相比读者，背景信息更加完整，我觉得这非常有用。

And so the audio format, I find, is in some ways superior because for the listener versus the reader, the context is more intact, and I find that incredibly useful.

为什么背景信息更完整呢？

Why is the context more intact?

这是因为，听一段对话（即使经过剪辑）和阅读页面上的引述，两者之间存在差异。

Well, it's the difference between hearing the conversation, even if it's edited, and reading a quote on the page.

比如，如果我写一篇关于史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的8000字文章，这8000字中可能只有1500字是他的原话，而这些引述是由作者嵌入到自己构建的语境中的。

For instance, if I write an 8,000 word article about Steven Spielberg, let's say, of those 8,000 words, maybe 1,500 words are quotes from the person, and those quotes are being inserted into a context by the writer.

换句话说，作者对这篇文章的整体环境和语境掌控得更多。

In other words, the writer controls the ecosystem or the environment of that piece a lot more.

而在音频访谈中，比例很可能恰恰相反——你会听到更多被采访者的声音，而且通常是在更自然的语境中听到的。

Whereas in the audio interview, the balance is most likely to be close to flipped, You hear a lot more from the person being interviewed, and you hear them typically in a more native context.

因此，我会说，没错，每种媒介都各不相同。

And so I would make the argument that, yes, every medium is different.

报纸和书是不同的。

A newspaper is different from a book.

播客和纪录片、电影等也是不同的。

A podcast is different from a documentary and film and so on.

但我认为，对于约翰·B的问题，我最满意答案是：世界上有这么多获取有趣知识的途径，取决于你是谁以及你想学什么，所以，如果你选择不读书，完全没必要觉得自己被歧视了。

But I think my favorite answer to John B's question is there are so many avenues for learning interesting stuff out there depending on who you are and what you wanna learn that, no, you shouldn't feel discriminated against because you choose to not be a reader of books.

就此打住。

Full stop.

但让我把问题抛回给你，安吉拉。

But let me turn the question back on you, Angela.

你似乎是个相当稳定的读者。

You are a pretty constant reader, it would seem.

你总是在读至少一本书甚至五本。

You're always reading at least a book or five.

对吧？

Right?

我是个每晚都读书的人。

I am a nightly reader.

我睡觉前会读书，白天大概还会读两个小时。

I read right before I go to bed, and then probably, like, two hours during the day.

那你的孩子们呢？

And what about your kids?

他们读得比你少还是多？

Do they read less or more than you?

可能我们差不多。

Maybe we're about the same.

如果你的孩子或者家人中有人说，他们只想整天看YouTube，不想读书，你会怎么回应？

And what if one of your kids or someone else in your family says, I just wanna watch YouTube all day instead of reading?

你对此会怎么说？

What's your response to that?

我肯定他们小时候说过类似的话，比如‘我想看几个小时的YouTube’。

I am sure one of them did say something when they were little, like, I wanna watch hours of YouTube.

我的孩子都18和19岁了，所以马已经跑出马厩了，我再也管不了他们了。

I mean, my kids are 18 and 19, so the horses have left the barn, and I have no control over them anymore.

说实话，你这番话让我觉得自己不过是又一代人，在抱怨年轻人沉迷于某种新技术，会把脑子搞坏。

And, look, I guess you're giving me some historic tableau in which I'm just yet the next generation of people to crankily bemoan that the youngins are getting on to some new technology that's gonna rot their brain.

但当我的女儿们还小的时候，我就想，如果她们看那种色彩鲜艳的埃尔莫视频，哪怕内容有点教育意义，也比真正动脑思考要轻松得多。

But I will say that when my girls were young, I thought to myself, if they watch this Technicolor video with Elmo and whatever, even if it's kind of educational, it's just so much easier than the work that has to be done when you're really thinking about something.

阅读确实比被动观看纪录片更费劲，不管纪录片有多好。

And reading does seem to be more effortful, at least for me, than when I am passively watching a documentary no matter how good the documentary is.

所以我认为，阅读有一种参与感和自我节奏，这是其他一些媒体所不具备的。

So I think there is a level of engagement and self pacing in reading that doesn't happen in some of these other media.

比如说，你在听播客时，听到某个内容但没完全理解。

Say, for example, you're listening to a podcast, and you hear something and you don't really quite understand it.

可还没等你反应过来，播客已经进入下一分钟了，因为它一直在往前推进。

And before you know it, you're on the next minute of the podcast because it just keeps moving.

对吧？

Right?

你知道吗，他们有个暂停按钮。

You know, they have a little pause button.

但你走在去杂货店的路上时，没人会用这个按钮暂停并倒退三十秒。

Nobody uses that to pause and go back thirty seconds when you're walking to the grocery store.

我的意思是，如果我在读书，你知道的，我的思绪会飘走，然后我想，天啊。

I mean, if I'm reading a book, you know, my mind wanders, and I'm like, oh, crap.

我完全不记得刚才读的那段话了。

I have no idea what that last paragraph was that I read.

我会很自然地翻回去，从我失去逻辑线索的地方重新开始。

Just very reflexively, I go back and I start over where I lost the thread of logic.

我真的认为我们在看YouTube视频、听播客或其他这些本质上被动的媒体时，并不会这样做。

And I really don't think we do that with YouTube videos, with podcasts, or any other of these media, which are inherently passive.

我认为阅读中确实有一种主动参与，这是不同的。

And I do think there's this active engagement that happens in reading that is different.

所以我非常强烈地同意你的观点。

So I would like to violently agree with you.

太好了。

Yay.

但在我激烈同意之前，我想先激烈地反对一下，哦，不。

But before I violently agree, I would like to violently disagree for a moment Oh, no.

我想反驳你的观点，即没人会在播客、电影或视频中暂停或倒退。

And say that I dispute your argument that no one pauses and rewinds on podcasts or films or videos or whatever.

因为每种媒介都略有不同，但都有一个很棒的十五秒倒退按钮。

Because there is a awesome little every medium is a little bit different, but the fifteen second rewind button.

那个逆时针方向的小箭头。

The little arrow that's going counterclockwise.

也许我是例外，但我非常怀疑这一点。

Now maybe I'm the outlier here, but I really doubt it.

但我经常用它。

But I use it all the time.

什么？

What?

我在听有声书时会用。

I use it in audiobooks.

我在听播客时也会用。

I use it in podcasts.

不会。

No.

我会。

I do.

你会？

You do?

我会。

I do.

听起来我们刚结婚似的。

It sound like we just got married.

为什么？

Why?

为什么？

Why?

因为我漏掉了什么。

Because I missed something.

我没理解某件事。

I didn't understand something.

我可能在开车，得集中注意力。

I was maybe driving, and I had to focus.

我经常用它。

I use it all the time.

这正是我现在很难听直播广播或看直播电视的原因之一，因为我本能地想找那十五秒的回放功能，但它根本不存在。

It's one of the reasons I have such a hard time listening to live radio or watching live TV now because I instinctively look for that fifteen second rewind, and it's not there.

这非常令人沮丧。

And that's very frustrating.

甚至《危险边缘》也是。

Even Jeopardy.

你看《危险边缘》的时候，是不是很讨厌那种等待的感觉？

When you're watching Jeopardy, don't you hate when you wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

我没太听清，我想倒回去。

I didn't quite get that, and I wanna go back.

你也有这种经历吗？

Don't you have that experience?

是的。

Yes.

当然有这种经历，但我不是那种总想找快退按钮的人。

Of course, have that experience, but I'm not the person who looks for the rewind button.

我就只是想：啊？

I'm just like, what?