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哦，嗨。
Oh, hey.
你邻居的Wi-Fi网络显示为‘新英格兰蛤蜊路由器’，艾利·沃德。
It's your neighbor's Wi Fi network that shows up as New England clam router, Ali Ward.
我们正好聊到足够多关于古代动物解剖学的内容，特别是那些奇特的小牙齿。
And we are biting up just enough to chew about ancient animal anatomy, particularly little weird teeth.
我知道你从没想过自己需要了解这些，但这太惊人了。
I know you never knew that you needed to know about this, and it's wild.
这太迷人了。
It's fascinating.
我向你保证，这就像地球时光中一个你根本无法想象的角落，除非你是这种学家或他们的同事——研究化石化史前组织样本的古生物学家。
I promise you it's like a little corner of the earth in time you'd never otherwise imagine unless you are thisologist or one of their colleagues, paleontologists who study fossilized prehistoric tissue samples.
我爱这个。
I love this.
这位‘学家’是我在网上、推特上认识的老朋友，那时候还是老推特，他总是乐于帮忙辨认骨头，推广了‘猜猜头骨’这个标签，并热爱骨头的历史。
This ologist, an old friend I met on the Internet, on Twitter, ye old Twitter, and someone who was always on hand to help identify a bone, who popularized the hashtag guess the skull and loves the history of bones.
他们出生在摩洛哥。
They were born in Morocco.
他们在埃及长大，青少年时期移居加拿大，之后在多伦多大学完成医学预科本科，随后在该校获得生态与进化生物学硕士学位，研究动物颌骨。
They grew up in Egypt and moved to Canada as a preteen, then did undergrad in pre med at the University of Toronto before getting a master's in ecology and evolutionary biology there, studying animal jawbones.
接着，他们在柏林洪堡大学获得博士学位，并在芝加哥大学做博士后期间，已发表多篇论文，包括2025年发表在《自然》上的《脊椎动物牙齿的起源与感觉外骨骼的演化》。
Then they got their PhD at the Humboldt University of Berlin, and as a postdoc at the University of Chicago, has already published several papers, including the twenty twenty five nature paper, the origin of vertebrate teeth and Evolution of Sensory Exoskeletons.
这简直颠覆了古生物学界。
That's like shaking up the fossil world.
除了是专业的古生物学家和进化生物学家，他们还是备受赞誉的科学传播者，表示自己热衷于以富有创意的方式让科学变得通俗、奇特而精彩，而这期节目正是如此。
And in addition to being a professional paleontologist and an evolutionary biologist, they are also a celebrated science communicator who says that they love finding creative ways to make science accessible, weird, and wonderful for everyone, which this episode does so much.
所以我们马上就开始深入探讨。
So we're gonna get into it in a minute.
但在那之前，衷心感谢赞助本节目的支持者，他们在录制前送来了幽默而富有洞察力的问题。
But first, thank you so much to patrons of the show who make it possible, and they send in hilarious and thoughtful questions before we record.
感谢所有通过访问ologiesmerch.com购买我们周边产品的朋友们支持本节目。
Thank you to everyone out there supporting the show by wearing our merch from ologiesmerch.com.
提醒一下，我们还有适合所有年龄段、课堂安全的简短儿童友好剧集，叫做Smologies，拼写是s-m-o-l-o-g-i-e-s。
As a reminder, also, we have shorter kid friendly episodes suitable for all ages and classroom safe, and those are called Smologies, s m o l o g I e s.
它们在独立的播客频道中提供。
They're available in their own feed.
无论你在哪个平台收听播客，都可以订阅。
Wherever you get podcasts, you can subscribe.
感谢所有为节目留下评价的人，你们的反馈证明了我确实有认真阅读每一条评论。
And thanks to everyone who leaves reviews of the show and to provide evidence that I do read them all.
感谢最近的评论者Coco Reads Books，她说：‘Ologies能让最冷门、最古怪的话题变得超级有趣。'
Thank you to recent reviewer, Coco Reads Books, who said that ologies, quote, can make the most obscure, weird topic super interesting.
Coco，你根本不知道。
Coco, you have no idea.
我们马上又要开始了。
We're about to do it again.
好的。
Okay.
古组织学。
Paleohistology.
这个词源自‘古老组织’，其中‘组织’中的‘histo’来自一个古老的希腊词，意思是网状结构。
It comes from the words for old tissues, and the histo in tissues comes from an older Greek word that means web.
几个月前，我在芝加哥参加一个朋友的婚礼，婚礼前的下午，我跑去菲尔德博物馆，在幕后与这位我多年来在互联网上仰慕的古组织学家一起探索。
And I was in Chicago a few months ago for a friend's wedding, and the afternoon before the rehearsal dinner, I romped off to the Field Museum to lurk behind the scenes with this ologist I had been admiring from the Internet for years.
我看到了一抽屉一抽屉的骨头、数百万年前的头骨、显微镜，以及那些改变了我们对口腔中生长物认知的证据。
I saw drawers of bones, millions of years old skulls, microscopes, and the evidence that changed how we think about what grows in our mouths.
准备好惊掉下巴吧，我们将探讨牙齿的起源、为什么你的牙齿有时会疼、它们是如何长进你嘴里的、关于灭绝物种的长期争议传闻、粒子加速器与古生物学如何碰撞、化石采集者依赖哪些工具、微小的谜团、揭穿古老的骗局，以及为什么在树害你之前你应该拥抱它，还有为什么一条鲶鱼可能凭借科学传播者、研究员、古生物学家、牙齿爱好者和古代组织研究者——古组织学家哈里迪博士——成为你的主宰。
So prepare to drop your jaws as we discuss the origins of teeth, why yours hurt sometimes, how they got in your mouth, the long debated rumors of extinct species, how particle accelerators and paleontology worlds collide, what tools fossil pickers rely on, teeny tiny mysteries, busting age old flimflam, and why you should hug a tree before it kills you, plus why a catfish might become your overlord with science communicator, researcher, paleontologist, tooth enthusiast, and researcher of ancient tissues, paleohistologist Doctor.
雅拉·哈里迪。
Yara Haridy.
我首先请你念一下你的全名和你使用的代词。
First thing I'll have you do is if you could say your first and last name and the pronouns you use.
我是雅拉·哈里迪。
So I'm Yara Haridy.
博士。
Doctor.
哈里迪。
Haridy.
博士。
Doctor.
雅拉·哈里迪，她/她的代词。
Yara Haridy, sheher pronouns.
你什么时候通过博士答辩的？
When did you defend your PhD?
我于2022年1月正式获得博士学位。
I was officially awarded to me in January 2022.
是的。
Yeah.
我关注你的推特很多年了。
I followed you on Twitter for years.
之前。
Before.
我知道。
I know.
是的。
Yeah.
在从前的时候。
In the before times.
在从前的时候，我想应该是Twitter，因为那时所有科学家都在那里聚集。
In the before times, so I reckon it was Twitter when that's where all the scientists gathered.
那真是美好的时光。
It was such a beautiful time.
那真是美好的时光。
It was a beautiful time.
是的。
Yeah.
我了解过你的工作。
I got to know your work.
我总是很喜欢，每当有人在棚子底下发现一只浣熊的头骨时，都会@你。
And I always love that whenever someone found a, like, a raccoon skull under a shed, they would tag you.
这是什么？
Be like, what is this?
我确实成了大家找骨头和牙齿问题的首选人，这本来就是我最初的目标。
I did become, like, a go to bone and tooth person, which was my goal in the first place.
说实话，这真让人难过，因为我以前总是建议，甚至对想进入科学领域的年轻人，把社交媒体当作首选资源，因为它真的是个非常好的平台。
And honestly, it's so sad because I used to suggest, like, social media as a go to thing all the time for even for, like, young people, like, young people who are trying to get into science because it was such a good resource.
我通过它得到了工作，得到了做访谈的机会，还获得了真正的科学合作——有人会说，等等，我有能做这个的设备。
I got jobs off of it, I got talking head gigs, I got collaborations, like actual science collaborations where someone's like, Well, wait, I have the machine that can do this.
我结识了朋友，认识了各种人，诸如此类的一切。
I got friends, got know, all that kind of stuff.
那真是一个非常、非常美好的地方。
And it was a really, really beautiful place.
希望科学能在其他地方重新凝聚起来。
Hopefully, science will come together again somewhere else.
一片晴空万里。
Nothing but blue sky.
所以我非常期待能和你聊聊，因为我早就想邀请你了。
So I am excited to catch up with you because I wanted to have you on for so long.
好了，来说说这个‘-ology’本身。
Now, okay, the ology itself.
我看到你有一篇论文，叫组织学骨骼年轮学。
I saw that you have a paper, histological skeletochronology.
这是个可行的方向。
That's a possibility.
古牙科学。
Paleodentology.
嗯。
What Mhmm.
我们在想什么？
What are we thinking?
你觉得你的专业领域是什么？
What would you say your ology is?
我的意思是，当别人问我时，比如，
I mean, when people ask me, like,
我的主要方法是古组织学。
what my main method is, it's paleohistology.
是的。
Mhmm.
所以我觉得这会是一个非常好的选择。
So I feel like that would be a really good one.
古组织学就是研究古代组织的学科。
And paleohistology is just the study of ancient tissues.
是的。
Mhmm.
组织学就是研究组织的，而古组织学就是把它们变成古老的。
Histology is just literally the study of tissues, and then paleohistology, you just make that ancient.
古老的。
Old.
古老的。
Old.
是的。
Yeah.
古老的。
Old.
古老的。
Old.
我们在谈组织，但也在谈牙齿。
We're talking tissues, but we're also talking teeth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
牙齿是一种组织吗？
Is a tooth a tissue?
牙齿由我们即将讨论的各种组织构成。
So what makes up a tooth are the different tissues we'll be talking about.
比如牙本质、牙釉质，这些词人们从牙膏广告里都听过。
So, like, dentine, enamel, those are, like, words that people have heard from, you know, your tooth paste commercials.
是的。
Yeah.
这些就是组织，但整体结构才是牙齿。
So those will be the tissues, but the structure as a whole is the tooth.
帮我回溯一下。
And take me back.
你是什么时候开始对古生物学感兴趣的？
When did you start getting interested in paleontology?
哦，天哪。
Oh, girl.
这感觉像是一个很奇怪的故事，因为很多人，尤其是在古生物学领域，小时候就对恐龙着迷，他们就是知道。
This is this is like I feel like it's such an odd story because so many people, especially in paleo, they were dino kids, and they knew.
他们就是很清楚。
They just knew.
你知道的吗？
You know?
我丈夫就是这样，他一直觉得，至少自己想往这个方向发展。
My my husband's that way where he's like, I just knew that this is at least a direction I wanted to go.
不一定非得是古生物学，比如艺术之类的。
Not paleo particularly, but, like, art, for example.
古生物学往往就是这样，很多人从很久以前就对它感兴趣了。
Paleo tends to be like that where a lot of people have been into it since forever.
但我走了好几条弯路才走到今天。
But I took, like, a couple of wrong turns to even get here.
我是在中东长大的。
So I grew up in The Middle East.
在中东，孩子们并不会真的经历一个恐龙痴迷阶段。
And in The Middle East, you don't really have, like, a dinosaur phase as a kid.
那里并没有这样推广。
It wasn't marketed that way.
我是1994年出生的，那可是个好年份。
You know, I'm nineteen ninety four, so good year.
但那时候，《侏罗纪公园》正开始流行起来。
But, you know, Jurassic Park was just becoming, like, big.
所以在中东，恐龙热潮并没有那么大，根本不算什么大事。
And so it just wasn't as big in The Middle East, it wasn't a thing.
我根本没想到这还能成为一份职业。
And I didn't really understand that that could be a career.
后来我们移民到加拿大，我开始上大学，对科学产生了浓厚兴趣。
And so then we immigrated to Canada, and I started going to university and really being interested in science.
我是埃及人，在我们的文化里，你只能选择少数几种职业。
And I'm Egyptian, so in our culture, you can be a few things.
你可以当医生，可以当药剂师，可以当工程师，也可能让家人失望。
You can be a doctor, you can be a pharmacist, you can be an engineer, or you can be a disappointment.
所以当我决定投身科学，至少先朝着当医生的方向努力时，我正在为医学院备考，但说实话，我根本不喜欢。
So when I decided to go into a science and try to at least go into being a doctor, so I was studying for med school, and, man, I just wasn't enjoying it.
而我真正喜欢的是解剖学、生理学，以及事物运作的原理。
And the parts that I enjoyed were the anatomy, the physiology, how things worked.
在准备医学院考试期间，我自愿去古生物学实验室做志愿者，然后爱上了古生物学。
As I was studying for med school, I volunteered in a paleo lab, and I fell in love with paleontology.
然后，一些看似右转的决定其实成了左转，或者一些左转的决定反而成了右转，最后我进入了古生物学领域。
And, yeah, couple of right turns turned left or couple left turns turned right, and I got into paleo.
他们给了我一个硕士学位的机会，我就这样继续走下去了。
They offered me a master's, and I continued from there.
是什么吸引了你？
What was it about it?
是因为它那难以想象的古老年代吗？
Was it just the age, the unfathomable age?
是结构吗？
Was it the structures?
这是个非常好的问题。
That's a really good question.
我其实能 pinpoint 那个转折点。
And I can actually mark the point where it happened.
他们让我挑选化石，挑选化石就是坐在显微镜前，从蝾螈的小骨头或牙齿中挑出微小的化石，这很有趣。
They had me picking fossils, and picking fossils is when you just sit on a microscope and you're picking little microscopic little bones from salamanders or teeth, and that was fun.
我觉得化石的形状很有趣，而且让我震惊的是，这些化石来自二叠纪，有两亿八千万年以上的历史，如果你不熟悉这种数字，这简直让人脑洞大开，而谁又熟悉呢？
And I think the shape of fossils is interesting, and I was just kind of mind blown that these were from the Permian, so they were two eighty plus million years old, which breaks your brain if you are not used to those numbers, and who is?
是的。
Yeah.
但当时实验室里有个博士生，他教了我一种叫古组织学的方法，也就是研究组织。
But then there was a PhD student in the lab at the time, and he taught me this method called paleohistology and the study of tissues.
我当时并不理解那是什么意思，因为你说组织怎么能保存在两亿八千多万年前的化石里？
And I didn't understand what that meant at the time because what do you mean tissues survived in these 280,000,000 plus year old fossils?
所以我们把它们切开，在显微镜下可以看到骨组织。
And so we cut them up, and you can see under the microscope the bone tissue.
你可以开始提出不同的问题，比如这只动物有多大年纪？
You can start asking different questions, like how old is this animal?
它是如何生长的？
How did it grow?
它的生长速度有多快？
How fast does it grow?
它的血管是什么样的？
What are the blood vessels like?
牙齿也是同样的道理。
Same thing with teeth.
它会替换牙齿吗？
Does it replace its teeth?
它是如何长出牙齿的？
How does it grow its teeth?
所有这些都仍然保存了下来。
All that was still preserved.
那一刻，我的震惊从‘炸了’升级到了‘碎成渣’，简直难以置信。
And at that point, it went from, like, mind blown to, like, shattered, like, gone because that was crazy.
你能看到细胞的空隙。
You can see cell spaces.
你能看到一些线条，表明这只动物经历过一个艰难的冬天。
You can see lines where, like, you know, this animal had a hard winter.
所有这些都被记录在了化石中。
All that was recorded in the fossils.
那一刻，我心想：等等。
And at that point, I was like, oh, wait.
这可能是一门真正的科学。
This might be a real science.
这可能真的是真实的。
This might be a real might be for real.
真实的东西。
Actual thing.
嗯，在那之前，大家都只是
Well, before that, everyone's
只是从外部拍摄这些化石。
just photographing externally, like, these fossils.
这当然也是科学。
And it's not that that isn't science.
当然，是的。
Of course, it is.
但那并没有触动我内心那部分想法：我们可以更深入。
But it just wasn't as it didn't tickle that little part of my brain of, we can go deeper.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们可以看到这只动物是如何活动的。
We can see how this animal ticked.
它的血管做了什么？
What did its blood vessels do?
它的细胞做了什么？
What did its cells do?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，如果你不是研究化石的人，不是古生物学家，你可能会认为只有骨头能保存下来，但当你读到一篇文章，说我们发现这里还有羽毛时，你会惊讶。
I feel like if you were not a fossil person, not a paleo person, you think the only things that maybe survived were the bones, and then you read an article where you're like, we know that there were feathers in here.
好吧。
Okay.
我们知道有鳞片，但我之前想象的只是坚硬的骨头保存下来，其他所有东西都腐烂了。
We know there were scales, but I either imagined hard bones that survived and everything else rotted out
对。
Yep.
或者鳞片，一些仍然坚硬的东西。
Or scales, something Something still hard.
某种仍然坚硬的东西。
Something still hard.
是的。
Yeah.
某种具有结构的东西。
Something with with a structure to it.
这很合理，因为绝大多数化石确实如此。
And that's fair because that's the vast majority of fossils.
大约99.9%的化石其实是牙齿，因为牙釉质是脊椎动物中最坚硬的组织，因此保存得非常好。
That's like 99.9% of fossils are actually teeth because enamel is the hardest vertebrate tissue, and so it survives really well.
它已经高度结晶了，那么地球还能让它再结晶多少呢？
It's already very crystallized, so, like, how much more crystallized can the Earth make you?
是的。
Yeah.
所以它们保存得非常好，骨骼次之。
So they survive really, really well, bone being secondary to that.
但在地球历史上，有些特殊的保存时刻，合适的细菌没有接触到它，或者合适的细菌确实接触到了它。
But there are exceptional preservation moments in Earth where the right bacteria didn't get to it or the right bacteria did get to it.
它们保留了羽毛。
And they preserve feathers.
它们保留了皮肤。
They preserve skin.
我们现在有了鱼龙的脂肪组织。
We now have ichthyosaur blubber.
人们确实进行了同位素测量，发现这种脂肪是以一种非常有趣的化学方式被保存下来的。
People, like, have, you know, actually done isotopic measurements and know that it's fat that was preserved in a really interesting chemical way.
它确实是岩石，但却保留了这些组织的印痕？
And it is rock, but it takes the impression of all those tissues?
并不总是如此。
Not always.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这么说公平。
So fair.
对吧？
Right?
那是一种旧观念，认为那只是一种印记。
That's kind of the the old thinking of, like, well, it's just an impression.
比如鳞片，你怎么知道恐龙木乃伊之类的东西呢？
Like, scales, for example, like, how do you know, like, dinosaur mummies and stuff.
有时候它们只是一种印象。
Sometimes they are impressions.
有时候软组织留下了印痕，然后消失了。
Sometimes the soft tissue left an impression and then disappeared.
有时候组织本身会矿化。
Sometimes the tissue itself gets mineralized.
所以，举个例子，想想你的皮肤。
So for example, let's think of your skin.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你的皮肤有好几层，其中一些部分会逐层被替代，或者发生交联，或者以某种化学方式改变，从而变得稳定。
There's multiple layers in your skin, and some parts of them basically get replaced one to one or they get cross linked or get changed in some chemical way that makes them stable.
因此，它们实际上以被稳定新化学物质渗透的组织形式保存下来。
So they actually preserve as that tissue that has been infused with new chemicals that are stable.
我没想到软组织竟然也是可以研究的对象。
I didn't realize that soft tissues were even something that you could look at.
现在在软组织和牙齿之间
Now between the soft tissues and the teeth
是的
Mhmm.
牙齿显然随着时间进化了。
Teeth obviously evolved over time.
生物是什么时候开始长出牙齿的？
When did things start getting teeth?
这基本上是我一生的问题。
So that is basically the question of my life.
生物是什么时候开始长出牙齿的？
When did things start getting teeth?
或者如果我可以进一步推演，那就是生物是什么时候开始形成矿化组织的？
Or if I can, like, extrapolate that even more, it's like when did things start getting mineralized tissues?
好的。
Okay.
我们有一个叫做生物矿化的过程，生物体整体上会从环境中吸收矿物质，并用它们构建骨骼。
So we have this process called biomineralization where organisms as a whole will basically take minerals from the environment and make a skeleton out of them.
但我们并不是最早这么做的生物。
And we're not the first to do that.
海绵有骨骼。
Sponges have skeletons.
它们有玻璃质的骨骼。
They have glass skeletons.
像软体动物这样的有壳生物，它们也有骨骼。
Shelled organisms like mollusks, they have skeletons too.
这些壳也算骨骼。
Those shells count.
钙碳酸盐骨骼。
Calcium carbonate skeletons.
节肢动物有外骨骼。
Arthropods have exoskeletons.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
所以，从环境中获取物质并制造自己的骨骼，我们也是如此。
So just taking stuff from the environment and making your own skeleton, we do that too.
我们制造骨骼。
And so we make bone.
我们制造牙齿。
We make teeth.
我们的骨骼由磷酸钙构成，但有趣的是，这些矿化标本非常容易形成化石。
Our skeletons are made of calcium phosphate, but what's interesting, of course, is that these mineralized specimens fossilize really well.
因此，我们可以回溯历史，思考：第一个长出牙组织的动物是什么？
So we can go back in time and be like, Okay, what's the first animal to have tooth tissues on it?
第一个长出骨组织的动物是什么？
What are the first animals to have bone tissues on it?
据我们所知，我们可以一直追溯到非常非常久远的中奥陶纪时期。
As far as we know, we kinda trace it all the way back deep, deep, deep in time into, like, the middle Ordovician.
所以大约是4.55亿年前。
So about 455,000,000 years ago.
是的。
Yeah.
很难想象。
Hard hard to Can't fathom.
难以理解。
Conceptualize.
对吧？
Right?
难以想象。
Can't fathom.
恐龙是什么时候灭绝的？
So dinosaurs went extinct when?
哦，6650万年前。
Oh, 6065.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
然后这些骨头已经存在了很长时间。
So and then these, like, bone has existed for a very long time.
牙组织也已经存在了很长时间。
Tooth tissues have existed for a very long time.
我说牙组织，是因为它们并不完全是牙齿。
And I say tooth tissues because they weren't exactly teeth.
它们曾经是软骨，然后变硬了吗？
Were they ever made of cartilage and get harder,
还是一开始就是矿化的？
or they were always mineralized?
动物曾经有过那种软软的、像牙龈一样的牙齿吗？
Did animals ever have, like, kinda gummy, like, like, kind of, like, teeth?
我很好奇，它们是不是在海里光靠牙龈就把猎物磨死了？
I love did they just gum things to death in the ocean?
是的。
Yeah.
很可能，但更有可能的是，它们只是靠吸食进食。
Probably, but also more likely is that they were just suction feeding.
早期曾出现过某种滤食方式。
There was some kind of filter feeding that happened early on.
所以，在化石记录中最早出现的类似牙齿的结构，并不是在嘴里发现的。
So the very first tooth like structures to appear in the fossil record don't appear in the mouth.
它们出现在鱼的体表。
They appear on the outside of fish.
它们出现在这些鳞片和真皮骨的外表面，这听起来有点可怕，直到你看到这些鱼有多荒谬——它们长得简直像胡乱拼凑出来的。
They appear on the outside on these, like, scales and dermal bone, which is partially nightmarish until you see how ridiculous these fish look like because they're nonsense looking.
它们看起来就像那种你用来吸汽车的便携式吸尘器？
They look like you know, like, a handheld vacuum that you're gonna, like, clean your car with?
或者对。
Or Yeah.
它们看起来像那样，但把一对圆溜溜的眼睛粘在末端。
They look like that but stick googly eyes on the end.
哦，天哪。
Oh, no.
而且它们的嘴总是张着，因为它们还没有下颌。
And then their mouth is always open because they don't have jaws yet.
所以这些长在这些鱼体外的、类似牙齿的小结构，我们称之为齿状突。
So these little tooth like things that are on the outside of these fish, we call them odontodes.
这就是我接下来会经常用到的词。
So that's the word I'm gonna be using often.
齿状突就是一些小块，看起来像牙齿，但它们长在嘴的外面。
So odontodes are little chunks that basically look like a tooth, but they're on on the outside of the mouth.
它们由釉质和牙本质构成，内部有牙髓腔，但覆盖在鱼体外部，而不是位于口腔内部。
They're made of enamel and dentine, and they have a pulp cavity, but they cover the outside of fish rather than being the inside of the mouth.
听起来像一个畸胎瘤。
It sounds like a teratoma.
你
You
知道吗？
know?
是的。
Yeah.
完全对。
Totally.
一团东西，嗯。
A blob item Mhmm.
到处都长着牙齿。
With teeth sticking out everywhere.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但它们长在体外是用来做什么的呢？
But what did they use them for on the outside?
砰。
Boom.
没错。
Exactly.
我们并不喜欢，所以不知道，或者以前不知道。
We don't like, so We don't know or we didn't know.
我们有几个假说。
We had a couple hypotheses.
为什么这些结构会长在身体外面？
Why would you have these things on the outside of your body?
最开始的答案总是说是为了保护。
The very first answer was always like protection.
就像是，你把身体最坚硬的组织放在了体表。
Like, oh, you're making your hardest tissue on the outside of the body.
你是在制造盔甲。
You're to make armor.
你知道的。
You know?
很多现代鱼类都是这样。
A lot of modern fish do that.
像雀鳝这样的鱼，全身覆盖着非常坚硬的鳞片。
Things like gar have really hardened scales that cover their entire bodies.
这让其他生物更难咬你。
Makes it harder for things to bite you.
是的。
Yeah.
也让寄生虫更难附着，等等。
Makes it harder for parasites to get attached, etcetera, etcetera.
请务必观看我们的《鳞鱼学》节目，了解这种长而可爱、古老、耐心、可戳的噩梦般鱼类，以及特邀嘉宾、著名生物学家兼双关语大师所罗门·大卫博士；还有我们的《地域学》节目，讲述虚构作品中怪物的历史与文化。
Please, please see our Garology episode about long, cute, ancient, patient, boopable nightmare fish with the iconic biologist and punster, doctor Solomon David, as well as our Territology episode about the history and culture of monsters in fiction.
因为畸胎瘤是一种可以在你体内生长的团块，却长有完整的牙齿和毛发团块。
Because the a teratoma is a blob that can grow in your body, but with fully formed teeth and clots of hair.
如果你听到节目末尾，我会告诉你我本人关于畸胎瘤的一个秘密。
And if you listen to the end of the episode, I'll tell you my own personal secret about teratomas.
但在真正的牙齿出现之前，已经有数百万年了。
But, yes, millions of years before actual teeth.
而且，
And, of
当然，牙齿长在嘴外的景象实在太可怕了。
course, the image of, like, teeth outside the mouth is so grotesque.
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你想想现代鲨鱼，现代鲨鱼的牙齿就在嘴外，或者它们有这些牙状结构。
But if you think about, like, modern sharks, modern sharks have teeth outside the mouth, or they have these odontos.
它们全身都覆盖着这些。
They're covered in them.
所以如果你顺着摸鲨鱼，感觉是光滑的，但逆着摸，就会非常粗糙。
So if you pet sharks one way, it's smooth, but if you pet them the other way, it's super rough.
你从鲨鱼身上感受到的砂纸般的触感，是因为它们的皮肤上布满了微小的牙齿。
That sandpaper feeling you get from sharks is because they have little tiny teeth all in their skin.
这些就是牙鳞吗？
Those are odontos?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
全身都覆盖着微小的牙齿？
Covered in tiny teeth?
嗯。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
我喜欢的是，人们总是被鲨鱼的大牙齿吓到，但他们不知道，鲨鱼皮肤里还有一支由微小牙齿组成的军队在支持着它们。
I love that the big teeth in a shark are what freak people out, but little do they know they have an army of tiny teeth also backing Yep.
所以，首先那些牙齿是在身体外部的。
Them So the first ones, though, were outside the body.
它们是什么时候开始融入体内的呢？
When did they start merging into the hole?
融入体内？
Merging into the hole.
我们是不是该回到它们在体外是做什么用的这个问题？
Should we go back to the what are they for on the outside?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以有几个悬而未决的假说。
So there's a couple floating hypotheses.
其中一个大概是这样的：好吧。
There's one that's like, okay.
它们起到保护作用，因为它们本身很坚硬，而且长在体外。
They're for protection because they're hard on their own, and they're on the outside.
在那个时期，中奥陶世，海洋里有好多可怕的大生物，比如大型头足类动物——巨大的乌贼或鹦鹉螺类，会捕食我们小小的鱼类祖先。
And at that time period, Middle Lord Ovation, there's, like, big scary things in the ocean, big cephalopods, so big squid nautiloid looking things that would eat our little fishy ancestors.
还有体型比你我都大的巨型海蝎子，身长可达六英尺以上。
There's big sea scorpions that are bigger than you or I that are up to, like, six feet or more.
同样是会捕食我们小小鱼类祖先的生物。
Again, things that would eat our little fishy ancestors.
所以第一个假说认为是保护作用，是说得通的。
So it makes sense that the first hypothesis was protection.
另一个基于鲨鱼的假设是，这可能有助于它们的运动。
Another one that's based more on sharks is that maybe it helps them with locomotion.
当我提到这些鱼长得非常奇怪时，嗯。
So when I said these fish are really weird looking Uh-huh.
它们还没有鳍。
They don't have fins yet.
所以最早的那些鱼没有胸鳍。
So so the first ones didn't have pectoral fins.
它们只有尾巴。
They just had a tail.
就像一根管子。
It's like a tube.
正如我所说，这就像一个手持吸尘器，末端长着眼睛，嘴巴是敞开的。
Like I said, it's a handheld vacuum with eyes on the end and an open mouth.
那么，它们是如何在这些湍急的海水中移动的呢？
So how do they move around in these, like, turbulent seas?
你如何让自己的运动更高效？
How do you make your locomotion more efficient?
鲨鱼利用皮肤上的小刺——也就是外表的齿状结构，即齿鳞，来帮助提高水动力性能。
Sharks, they use the little spikes on in their skin, these little teeth on the outside, the odontodes, to help basically with hydrodynamics.
由于它们身体表面遍布的小凸起，水流经过它们身体的方式更加高效。
The way that the water flows over their body is more efficient because of the little bumps all over them.
所以早期的鱼类也可能采用了同样的方式。
So maybe the early fish did that too.
这是另一个理论。
So that's one other theory.
最后一个理论是，这可能与感觉有关，因为现代的牙齿是有感知能力的，也许这些外部的结构也有同样的功能。
And then the last theory is that maybe it has something to do with sensation, that maybe because our modern teeth are sensitive, maybe the outside ones are as well.
这些外部结构有多大？
How big were these outside ones?
它们很小吗，还是说
Were they teeny or were they
我应该直接给你看看。
I like I should just show you.
它们在我们后面的柜子里。
They're they're in the cabinets behind us.
是的。
Yeah.
拿一个过来。
Grab one.
好。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
给我一秒钟。
Give me one second.
好的。
Okay.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
我就是喜欢你这种态度，好像我们这儿有一件几百万年历史的东西一样。
I just love that you're like, well, we've got something that's millions and millions of years old over here.
他们说得对。
They were right.
就像我会从柜子里拿出一个咖啡杯那样。
Like how I would pull a coffee mug out of a cabinet.
这也是我第一次听到‘odontode’这个词，真让人兴奋。
This is the first time I've ever heard the word odontode also, which is exciting.
我根本不知道它们还有个统称。
I didn't know that there was even a generalized name for them.
这些柜子里的藏品真是太疯狂了。
This haul of cabinets is so bonkers.
我这里有一块无颌鱼的头甲部分。
So I have a part of a head shield from a jawless fish.
你能看到这些小凸起，嗯。
And what you can see here, all these little bumps Mhmm.
每一个小突起都是一个小牙齿。
Each one of them is a little tooth.
不。
No.
它看起来像牙质结构。
It looks Or edontoed.
牙质结构。
Edontoed.
它看起来有点像微型的奶酪天花板。
It looks kind of like a tiny cottage cheese ceiling.
你知道的。
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
它的爆米花质感。
The popcorniness of it.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这种质地非常强烈。
The texture is very intense.
它们几乎像小小的珠子。
They're like little tiny beads almost.
现在你澄清了，你之前在这里外收到过一些批评。
And now you clarified that you have gotten flak here and there.
我们称它为牙齿，因为牙齿是在颌骨里的。
We're calling it a tooth because a tooth is in a jaw.
是的。
Yeah.
但我们是在广义上讨论，以便沟通清楚。
But we're talking broadly to communicate Right.
它是一种类似的结构。
What it's an analogous structure.
对。
Right.
或者同源的。
Or or homologous.
对吧？
Right?
同源的。
Homologous.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
因为它们有相同的起源。
Because they have the same origin.
所以我们知道口腔外的这些牙状结构与牙齿有关，是因为它们由相同的物质构成。
So with the reason that we know that these odontos on the outside of the mouth are even related to teeth is because they're made of the same thing.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
它们由釉质构成。
They're made of enamel.
它们由牙本质构成。
They're made of dentin.
它们有牙髓腔。
They have pulp cavities.
它们有相同的血液供应。
They have the same blood supply.
所以它们在口腔中的作用和我们的牙齿非常相似，嗯嗯。
So they they act very similar to our own teeth in the mouth Mhmm.
只是它们的替换方式不同，而且功能也不一样，因为它们不用于咀嚼。
Except that they don't replace the same way, and they don't have a job in that they don't chew.
然后它们开始合并了。
And then they started coming merging.
它们开始说，我们进洞里吧。
They started saying, let's get in the hole.
那么，我们的牙齿是怎么出现在嘴里的呢？
So how did we get teeth in the mouth?
或者，你是怎么从长在头部外面的突起物，演变成可以咬其他鱼的牙齿的？
Or how did you how did you go from odontodes, things that are bumpy outside the head, to things that I can bite other fish with.
所以这一变化发生在大约泥盆纪时期。
So that happened along so we assume some time in probably the Devonian.
泥盆纪是一个持续约六千万年的时期，从大约四亿二千万年前到三亿六千万年前左右，那是个盛大的时代。
So the Devonian was a cute little sixty million year era from about 420,000,000 years ago to 360 or so million years ago, and it was a party.
那时陆地上出现了植物，叶子和种子形成，生物从水中爬出，走向陆地生活。
It involved plants growing on land, the formation of leaves and seeds, critters slithering out of the water into their terrestrial destinies.
我们还有带壳的昆虫。
We had shelled bugs.
我们有长着颌的鱼。
We had fishes with jaws.
事实上，这个时代被称为鱼类的时代。
In fact, it was called the age of fishes.
当时甚至还有现在已经灭绝的生物，叫做盾皮鱼，它们看起来像是穿着防弹衣和头盔的扁平板状鱼。
There were even now extinct things called placoderms, meaning flat plate fish that looked like they were wearing bulletproof vests and helmets.
四亿年前，原始的鲨鱼就已经存在了，这比树木的出现还要早一百万年。
Four hundred million years ago, primitive sharks were like, hey, about a million years before trees existed.
鲨鱼比树木更古老。
Sharks older than trees.
鲨鱼真不错。
Also, nice to sharks.
2023年，美国有71人死于树木，而全球范围内未经挑衅的鲨鱼袭击仅造成10人死亡。
Trees killed seventy one people in The US in 2023, but unprovoked sharks killed ten globally.
其中只有两起发生在美国内。
Only two of those were in The US.
鲨鱼是我们星球的长女。
Sharks are the eldest daughter of our planet.
所以我们现在有一些化石，它们的整个面部都布满了这些小突起。
And so what we have is a couple of fossils that are covered in these little bumps all the way across their face.
在现在已经演化出的下颌边缘，你看到的是更锋利、更尖锐的齿状突起。
And right at the margin of the jaw, which had now evolved, you have sharper and pointier odontodes.
它们逐渐过渡到口腔内部，然后你就能看到口腔里真正的尖锐结构。
And they kinda grade into the mouth, and then you have actual pointy things in the mouth.
这显然是牙齿的雏形。
It's done ostensibly teeth.
我们能看见那些洁白的牙齿吗？这就是我们推测其演化过程的一种方式。
Can we see those pearly whites, So that's one way that we think it happened.
另一种我们推测的可能方式是，构成齿状突起的那些基因，后来在口腔内部重新表达了出来。
The other way that we think it could have happened is just whatever genetics that make up odontodes, they got re expressed inside the mouth.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这并不一定需要结构逐渐移动到口腔中，而可能是重新表达。
So it doesn't have to be a gradual, like, actual movement of the structure into the mouth, but it can be a re expression.
只是说，嘿，我把我在这里用的工具箱，改在口腔里使用。
Just, hey, let me take this toolbox that I use up here, and I'm gonna express it in the mouth instead.
就像你突然在别处长出一根奇怪的毛发一样。
Kinda like when you get a weird hair that pops up somewhere else.
你会说，你在这儿干嘛？
You go, what are you doing here?
是的。
Yeah.
不过我不建议用镊子拔牙。
Except I don't recommend tweezing out your teeth.
对。
No.
别这么做。
Don't do it.
别这么做。
Don't do it.
好的。
Okay.
象牙和牙齿有什么区别？
What's the difference between a tusk and a tooth?
一个是象牙。
One is ivory.
象牙和……有什么区别？
What's ivory versus
象牙其实就是牙本质。
Ivory is just dentine.
象牙其实就是牙本质。
Ivory is just dentine.
这意味着没有釉质或牙髓吗？
Does that mean there's no enamel or pulp?
所以象牙就是牙齿。
So tusks are just teeth.
哦。
Oh.
但它们是特殊的牙齿，因为通常不会替换。
But they're fancy teeth in that they are usually nonreplacing.
它们通常是持续生长的。
They're usually continuously growing.
大象是最著名的长象牙的动物。
So elephants are the famous tusks.
当它们还是幼崽时，牙齿末端会有一层小小的釉质帽。
When they're babies, they have a little itty bitty enamel cap on the end of their tooth.
是的。
Mhmm.
随着象牙不断生长，通常会因为它们蹭树、用象牙掘土或争斗而磨损，最终只剩下牙本质。
And then as it keeps growing, that usually gets worn away because they just, like, rub them on trees, they dig with them, they fight, and then it ends up all being dentine.
是的。
Yeah.
明白了。
Got it.
好的。
Okay.
我不禁想，既然牙釉质这么坚硬，为什么它们不保留它呢？
I wonder why they don't keep the enamel since the enamel's so hard.
嗯，我想是因为牙釉质在使用过程中会被磨掉。此外，还有一些非常有趣的研究表明，大象会把象牙当作感知工具。
Well, think it's just it gets worn away after a Also, there's a bunch of studies that are really interesting that show that elephants use their tusks as like sensory things.
所以它们会用象牙敲击地面，通过象牙感受震动。
So they hit them on the ground and they like feel vibrations with them.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它们会收到某种反馈，它们并不是在胡乱地挥舞大棍子。
So there's some kind of feedback that they're they're not just like whacking around big sticks.
也就是说，确实存在某种反馈。
Like, there is some feedback.
这是一种活组织。
It's a living tissue.
对吧？
Right?
在那下面是一层淡黄色的牙本质，它比外层的釉质软，但仍然是坚硬的组织，保护着牙齿内部那小块牙髓。
Underneath that is the yellowish dentine, which is softer than the outside enamel, but still hard tissue, and it's protecting that little lump of inner pulp in the tooth.
而牙本质由胶原蛋白组成。
And dentine is made up of collagen proteins.
根据《工程再生》期刊中的一章——一本非常出色的书——牙本质中存在一种称为牙本质小管的细小管道。
And according to a chapter in the journal Engineered Regeneration, banger of a book, there are fine tubes arranged in dentine known as dentine tubules.
当牙本质暴露时，它会将外界的冷、热、酸、甜刺激传递到牙髓神经，从而引起疼痛。
And when dentine is exposed, it can transfer cold, hot, sour, and sweet stimulation from outside to the pulp nerve and cause pain.
亲爱的，我们欠你们一期关于牙齿的牙科学专题。
Darlings, we owe you an odontology teeth episode.
我们还欠你们一期关于大象的专题。
We also owe you an elephant episode.
我们正在筹备中。
We're working on it.
我们选定的象类专家已经在野外待了整整两年。
Our pachydermatologist of choice has been in the field for, like, two years.
我们正在等她有空。
We're waiting for her to become available.
请别冲我大喊大叫，你们这些可爱的小家伙。
Please don't yell at me, you sweet little brats.
你们最近一篇关于敏感牙齿的论文中提到，要怪就怪你们的鱼类祖先。
And this is one thing in a recent paper of yours about sensitive teeth, like blame your fish ancestors.
是的。
Yep.
我刚换了一个牙冠，现在那边不能喝冷水。
Which I got a crown replaced, and I can't drink cold water on that side.
已经两个月了，我对此还是很生气。
It's been, like, two months, and I'm just angry about it.
而且我脱水了，而且
And I'm dehydrated, and
哦，天哪。
Oh, no.
这大概只是个时间问题。
It's just, I guess, a time mention.
但我确实要怪我的鱼类祖先。
But I do blame my fish ancestors.
我对他们很生气。
I'm pissed at them.
这是个不错的开始。
It's a good start.
所以，外部的感觉器官也能帮助它们感知水温有多冷吗？
So a sensory organ on the outside also helps them figure out, like, how cold the water is?
什么？
What?
这是个非常好的问题。
This is such a good question.
但基本上，我们并不知道。
But, basically, we don't know.
我们不知道它们感知的是什么，因为我们不仅能够感知冷热，还能用牙齿感知甜味和压力。
We don't know what they're sensing because not only are we sensing cold, we can sense sweetness, we can sense pressure with our teeth.
有些人对甜味特别敏感，吃一块糖果就能感受到明显的反应。
Some people have sweet sensitivity, so they just eat like a candy and they get some sensitivity from it.
我的意思是，如果你用力压牙齿，你确实能感觉到它们。
I mean, you felt like if you press really hard on your teeth, you can feel them.
我知道你刚刚压了压你的牙齿。
I know you just pressed on your teeth.
我知道。
I know it.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们的牙齿能感知多种东西。
So our teeth can sense multiple things.
我们感知冷的原因后面再说。
The reason we sense cold is later.
基本上，信号会被发送出去，然后它之后是如何被解读的呢？
Basically, the signal gets sent out, and how does it get decoded later?
你的大脑会说，这个信号意味着冷。
Your brain says, this signal means cold.
所以这发生在之后。
So that happens down the line.
从技术上讲，这几乎可以是任何东西。
That could technically be almost anything.
所以我不确定这些早期的鱼类是否拥有这种组织，然后下游它们能感知到诸如水温变化、潮汐变化、有东西在咬我，或者沉积物流动改变等情况。
So I don't know if these early fish had this tissue basically, and then downstream, they had it sensed for like, hey, it's warm water or cold water or a change in tides or something's trying to bite me or the sediment flow changed or any of that.
我们并不确切知道它们感知的是什么，但我们知道某种信号确实被传递了。
We don't know exactly what they're sensing, but we know that some kind signal was getting passed.
然后给我讲讲这篇论文吧。
And then tell me a little bit about this paper.
这篇论文在过去三年里一直是个噩梦。
This paper has been the nightmare of the past three years.
好的。
Okay.
说得通。
Checks out.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个有趣的故事，因为它的研究路径非常曲折，我认为这展示了科学并非线性发展的。
So it's an interesting story because it's a really winding pathway, and I think it shows how science is not very linear.
嗯嗯
Mhmm.
有时候，当我们开始研究某件事或寻找某个东西时，会发现一个更加复杂的故事，而这种故事往往更有趣。
And sometimes when we set out to research one thing or look for one thing, we get a much more complicated story, which tends to be a lot more interesting.
嗯嗯
Mhmm.
我基本上提出申请，想去芝加哥，在芝加哥大学做我的研究。
So I basically had pitched to come to Chicago to do my work at University of Chicago.
我提出说：
I pitched, hey.
我想研究化石记录中最早可能具有齿质、可能具有骨骼的生物。
I wanna look at the very first thing in the fossil record that might have odontodes, that might have bone.
让我们通过了解这些早期组织，弄清楚我们的骨骼是从哪里来的。
Let's figure out where our skeletons came from by understanding these early tissues.
我想把它切开。
I wanted to cut it up.
我想扫描它。
I wanna scan it.
我们现在有非常先进的扫描技术。
We have really good ways to scan things now.
让我们把所有能用的方法都用在这块化石上。
Let's, like, throw everything at this fossil.
我特别感兴趣的化石是一种来自晚寒武纪的动物。
And the fossil I was really interested in was this animal from the latest Cambrian.
而且，这距今大约有三亿到四亿年。
And, again, this was 300 to 400,000,000 years ago.
这比盘古大陆形成并分裂还要早数亿年。
This was hundreds of millions of years before Pangaea existed and then broke apart.
所以我们是在追溯非常非常久远的过去。
So we're going way, way back.
哈里迪博士竟然随手就拥有着比我所能想象的还要古老得多的牙齿。
And doctor Haridy is, like, casually in possession of teeth of an age that are beyond my capacity to fathom.
她于2025年5月在权威期刊《自然》上发表了一篇题为《脊椎动物牙齿的起源与感觉外骨骼的演化》的论文。
She published a paper in May 2025 in the venerated journal Nature titled The Origin of Vertebrate Teeth and Evolution of Sensory Exoskeletons.
论文中写道：脊椎动物牙齿的起源一直是古生物学中的一个长期难题。
And it reads, the origin of vertebrate teeth has been a long standing problem in paleontology.
尽管牙齿是从无颌脊椎动物皮肤外骨骼中的结构——齿质演化而来，但其起源和功能仍不明确。
Although teeth evolved from structures in the dermal exoskeleton of jawless vertebrates known as odontodes, their origin and function remains obscure.
这篇论文具有开创性，这可不是一个化石相关的双关语。
And this paper is groundbreaking, and that's not a fossil pun.
但即便它才发表几个月，已经被大量引用了。
But it's already racking up citations despite being, like, just a few months old.
我们稍后在节目中会深入探讨原因，到那时我们就更清楚这些术语的含义了。
So we'll get into why later in the episode when we know what more words mean.
而且，这背后还有一个引人入胜的故事，并引发了诸多有趣的反响。
And also, it's a juicy story and had some fascinating reactions.
如果你还记得前面我说过，我们所知的最早脊椎动物来自中奥陶世。
Now if you remember earlier, I said the best things that we know, the earliest vertebrates are from the middle Ordovician.
埃迪卡拉纪就在奥陶纪之前。
The Edescambrian is just before the Ordovician.
但这些化石的问题在于它们非常零碎。
But the problem with these fossils is that they're super fragmentary.
当我说到非常零碎时，我是说，特别小。
And when I say super fragmentary, I'm saying, like, tiny.
小到能放在牙签末端那种程度。
Like, fits on an end of a toothpick tiny.
天哪。
Oh, dear.
是的。
Yeah.
说天哪确实没错。
Oh, dear is right.
因为当你告诉别人‘我是古生物学家’，然后给他们看你研究的化石时，会让很多七岁孩子非常失望。
Because when you tell someone, oh, I'm a paleontologist, and then you show them the fossils you work on, I make a lot of seven year olds very disappointed.
碎片化，是指整个牙齿，还是说它碎成了许多小片？
And fragmentary, that's the whole tooth, or that is just it bursts into shards?
我
I
我应该给你看看。
should show you.
想要一个特别小的吗？
Did want a teeny?
是的。
Yeah.
你有什么？
What do you got?
哦，我有
Oh, got
四个。
four.
这些是哦，超小超小的。
These are the oh, teeny teeny.
我知道它们是如何在岩石中被发现的。
And I got how they're actually found in the rock.
你知道它们长什么样吗？
You know what they look like?
它们看起来像书呆子。
They look like nerds.
就像是最小的书呆子。
It's like the smallest nerds.
它们装在小瓶子里，你把它们倒出来。
And they're in a vial, you're pouring them out.
那些是牙齿吗？
Those are teeth?
那些看起来像碎石。
Those look like gravel.
我知道。
I know.
对吧？
Right?
这些看起来像是高档花园里的风化花岗岩。
Those look like decomposed granite in a fancy garden.
你看到那些小白点了吗？
Do you see the little white bumps?
是的。
Yes.
所以这是这些古代鱼类的真皮骨的一部分。
So this is part of dermal bone on these ancient fish.
所以我手里拿着的，到底是什么？
So I'm basically holding, like, what is it?
你说像是麦片的碎片。
You say fragments of, like, cereal.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
它们太小了。
They're so tiny.
它们就像葡萄坚果。
They are like grape nuts.
是的。
Yeah.
它们非常小。
They're very tiny.
我们从它们身上获得了非常好的数据。
And we get really good data from them.
奇怪的是，它们扫描效果非常好。
Oddly enough, they scan beautifully.
它们切片效果也非常好。
They section beautifully.
在显微镜下，它们美极了，牙釉质完好无损。
Under a microscope, they're just gorgeous, and the enamel is intact.
每一个小凸起都是一个小小的齿质突。
Every one of those little bumps is a little odontode.
不。
No.
每一个都是。
Every single one.
所以这些齿质突附着在真皮骨上，这就是它们形成盔甲的方式。
So the odontodes adhere to the dermal bone, and that's how they make their armor.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
因此它们全身都覆盖着这些结构。
And so they're covered in these ones.
它们真的非常小。
They're really tiny.
它们比之前我给你看的那块还要小得多。
They're even tinier than the other piece that I showed you earlier.
因此，这就是早期一些零散的、最早开始矿化的脊椎动物的最早形态表现。
And so this is the earliest representation of what some of these fragmentary early, early mineralizing vertebrates look like.
它们 tiny 到极点。
They're teeny tiny.
所以当有人跟你说化石记录有问题时，这就是证据。
So when someone tells you the fossil record is a problem, this is it.
我的意思是，你很容易就会忽略掉它。
I mean, you could overlook that so easily.
你这里有一块石头，圈出了某些东西，里面有一些绝对微小的、像针尖大小的白色光点结构，你必须仔细查看。
And here you have a rock, and you've circled some things, and there are absolutely pinprick little white light ish structures, and you've gotta go in there.
你是不是用，讽刺的是，牙科工具？
Do you use, ironically, a dental tool?
是的。
Yes.
你真的吗？
Do you really?
对。
Yeah.
我们经常使用牙科工具和牙科印模材料来制作模型之类的。
We use dental tools all the time and dental putty to make molds and stuff.
对。
Yeah.
我认识很多牙医。
I'm friends with a lot of dentists.
我
I
希望你有个好牙医。
hope you have a good dentist.
我简直不敢相信它这么小。
I can't believe how teeny it is.
所以我又打开了一支安瓿，倒进了更多碎屑。
So I just opened another vial and poured in another bunch of scrap.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但这个据说是来自不同物种的。
But this one's supposedly from a different species.
所以你可以看出来，因为齿突的形状不一样。
And so you can kinda tell because the shape of the odontodes is different.
嗯。
Mhmm.
它们更细长。
They're more elongate.
它们看起来像小米粒，但比米粒还小。
They kinda look like little rice grains, except smaller than rice grains.
是的
Yeah.
它们几乎是波浪形的。
They're like wavy almost.
是的
Yeah.
这些米粒般的微小石粒，是4.75亿年前生活在如今北美地区的海洋动物所覆盖的原始牙齿。
So these grains of rice, these little pebbles, they are the proto teeth that covered marine animals 475,000,000 years ago in what is now North America.
而我们正在查看的这些波浪形的米粒，是哈里迪医生从岩石中 painstakingly 挑选出来的。
And the ones we're looking at, the vial of wavy rice grains that doctor Haridy painstakingly picked out of a rock.
于是我们围坐在桌旁，周围摆满了这些古老的标本，就像一桌小菜一样。
So we sat down at the table with this array of ancient specimens around us like tapas.
它们遍布整个北美。
They're all over North America.
这种动物有多大？
And how big was this animal?
这是个好问题。
It's a good question.
我们很少能遇到完整的标本，也就是仍然保持在一起并呈原始形态的标本，因此很难估算。
We don't get many articulated specimens, so specimens that are still together and in life form, and so it's really hard to estimate.
我们有一具部分完整的头部标本，只有几厘米宽，但还有一具要大得多。
We there is one partially articulated head, which is only a couple of centimeters wide, but then there's another one that's, like, quite a bit bigger.
所以我们不知道我们捕获的是幼体还是成体。
So we don't know if what we're catching is a baby and an adult.
我们真的不确定。
We're really unsure.
很难估算这些最早期的生物长什么样。
It's very hard to estimate what these earliest earliest ones looked like.
世界上有多少人做这个？
How many people in the world do this?
整个古组织学领域？
Paleohistology as a whole?
或者寻找微小的
Or Looking for tiny
像这样的牙齿？
teeth like this?
可能只有 handful 个人。
Probably a handful.
可能不到十个人。
Probably less than 10 of us.
是的。
Yeah.
你们在 WhatsApp 群里吗？
Are you guys on a WhatsApp thread?
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我们通常在各种会议上定期见面，然后每个人的研究方式都略有不同。
We kind of meet regularly in conferences and stuff, and then everyone kind of approaches it a little bit differently.
所以，我可能是唯一一个做组织学的人。
So I'm probably one of the only ones that does the histology.
还有其他人做，但有些人从形态学角度观察，也就是形状。
Few others do, but some people look at it from morphology, so the shapes.
有些人研究分类学。
Some people look at a taxonomy.
他们关注具体的物种，但我对组织感兴趣。
They look at the actual, like, individual species, but I'm interested in the tissue.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
为什么是牙本质？
Why dentine?
为什么是牙釉质？
Why enamel?
为什么是骨头？
Why bone?
我对这个感兴趣，因为在这些生物出现之前，存在着软绵绵的原始生物。
And I'm interested in that because before these guys, there was squishy boys.
当时有各种各样的柔软早期脊椎动物。
There was all kinds of squishy early vertebrates.
因此，我特别感兴趣的是，从我们脊椎动物祖先、脊索动物等那些软乎乎的生物，到完全披甲的鱼类之间的巨大转变。
And so I'm really interested in the jump from gooey things that were our vertebrity ancestors, chordates, etcetera, to the jump of, like, fully armored fish.
因为在化石记录中，这种转变看起来似乎是突然发生的。
Because in the fossil record, that looks like it just happens.
从完全裸露的软体生物到巨型装甲鱼类之间，没有任何过渡形态。
There's no transition between fully naked goopy thing to mega armored fish.
我们中间没有任何化石证据。
We don't have anything in the middle.
我们没有发现任何轻度装甲的鱼类作为中间形态。
We don't have a lightly armored fish in between.
知道那个缺失的环节可能就藏在你们还没找到的某块岩石里，这会不会让你感到不安？
Is it unnerving to know that that missing link is somewhere in a rock that y'all haven't found yet?
我觉得这是个令人振奋的事，因为我真的很兴奋。
I think that's a hopeful thing because I'm I'm excited.
我的研究方向正是想朝这个方向发展。
I mean, that's the direction I want my research to go.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这正是我们希望找到的。
That's what we're hoping to find.
你知道吗，当我现在跟孩子们聊天时，他们总说，哦，所有东西都已经被发现了，对吧？
It's still you know, When I talk to kids nowadays, they're like, oh, everything's been discovered or you know?
很多人对科学都有这种想法。
A lot of people think that about science.
他们觉得一切都已经被发现了，但实际上还有很多谜团，这正是其中之一。
Oh, everything's already been found out, but there's still so much mystery, and this is one of them.
因此，年轻科学家还有很多空间可以进入并拓展，尤其是借助新技术。
So there's a lot of space for young scientists to come in and expand, especially with new technology.
有很多方式可以提出或重新提出旧的问题。
There's a lot of ways to ask or reask old questions.
你是在
Are you out in
野外穿着卡其色衣服，夏天大部分时间还戴着帽子吗？
the field wearing khaki garments and, like, a hat in most of the summer?
你的野外工作是什么样的？
What does your fieldwork look like?
我刚在科罗拉多州工作过。
So I was just out in Colorado.
我们当时在观察一处路堑。
We were looking at this one road cut.
有一个区域即将被爆破，因为他们要把这条路拓宽。
So there's this one area they're about to dynamite because they're making this road really wide.
那个区域有一层叫做哈丁砂岩的地层，我们对它很感兴趣，因为我们在那里发现了来自中洛德组的这些小生物。
And that area has this formation called the Harding Sandstone, which is something that we are interested in because that's where we find these little guys from the Middle Lord division.
所以他们给我打了电话，说：嘿。
So they called me up, and they're like, hey.
你有兴趣在我们炸掉之前来研究一下吗？
Are you interested in working on this before we blow it up?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
当然有。
Absolutely.
是的，我们一直在那里挖掘，整个区域都挖了，我们在那片山坡上挖了很多，找到了大量这些碎片和鳞片。
Yes, So we've been out there digging, yeah, the whole the whole thing, And we dug a lot in that hillside, found a lot of these fragments, a lot of scales.
我们非常幸运，但仍在寻找更完整的个体，因为那才是我们真正想要的。
We were very lucky, but we're still looking for a more complete guy because that's really what we want.
我想看看这些奇怪生物的脸长什么样。
I wanna see what a face of these weirdos looks like.
是的。
Yeah.
它有尾巴吗？
Does it have a tail?
就是那种之类的特征吧。
Is it you know, all that kinda stuff.
所以我们还没能挖到那个，但我们会很快回去。
So we we weren't able to hit that just yet, but we'll go back soon.
我记得跟迈克尔·哈比布聊过，问过一次恐龙挖掘要花多少钱，他说是的。
I remember talking to Michael Habib and asking about how much it cost for a dino dig, and he's like, yes.
我当时问：两百万？
And I was like, 2,000,000?
三百万？
3,000,000?
他说只要一万美元。
He was like, $10,000.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时就想，还没一辆凯美瑞贵。
And I was like, less than a Camry.
挖恐龙的花费还没一辆二手凯美瑞贵。
Less than a used Camry to dig up dinosaurs.
当你知道他们要炸掉某个地方，而你心里想，天啊，里面肯定有好多好东西，这时候想进去就太难了。
Like, it tough to get an in when you know they're gonna dynamite something and you're like, oh, there's so much good stuff in there.
你得做选择吗？比如，我先把这个放一放，去你们即将炸掉的地方，等以后再回保护区？
Do you have to choose, like, I'm gonna put this on hold, and I'm gonna go to the place that you're about to dynamite, and I'll get to you later in the protected lands?
完全对。
Totally.
没错。
Totally.
我的意思是，这其实就是人生的全部。
I mean but that that's all of life.
对吧？
Right?
你得重新安排一下，调整优先级。
You have to kinda move things around and reprioritize.
所以当我们发现这个区域要被炸掉时，我们想去看一看，于是把其他事情都放一边，去实地考察了。
So when we found out that this area was getting dynamited, we wanna check it out, moved a bunch of things aside, and went and checked it out.
但就像哈比布说的，这比人们想象的便宜多了。
But like Habib said, it's so much cheaper than people think.
而这正是为什么科学经费如此难申请，显得更加荒谬——我的上一次野外工作，总共才花了23美元，就请了几个人，整整一周时间，挖掘、调查，做了大量的科学工作，大量的科学工作。
And that's again why it's even crazier that it's so hard to get science funding because, I mean, my last fieldwork was maybe only $23 to get a few people out there for a whole week and dig it up and, you know, and really get a good survey and do a lot of science, a lot of science.
但这确实很难。
But it's just hard.
有时候很难凑齐这笔钱。
It's sometimes hard to scrap that together.
是的。
Yeah.
在我看来，这简直疯狂，因为这也就相当于一顿饭的钱。
Bonkers to me considering that that's like one dinner.
这在华盛顿就相当于一顿饭的钱。
That's like one dinner in Washington.
是的。
Yeah.
就是在某个地方和说客举着香槟社交一下而已。
It's just some hobnobbing over champagne somewhere with a lobbyist.
我不知道。
I don't know.
现在，我认为在很多方面，科学家们已经开始意识到我们需要捐助者。
And now, I think, in many ways, scientists are realizing that we need donors.
我们需要那些真正对此感兴趣的人。
We need people who are into it.
一旦标本从地下挖出来，就需要进行处理。
Once you get the specimens out of the ground, they need to be prepared.
而处理过程可能非常昂贵，因为你需要雇佣一位技术高超的人，并给予他们合理的报酬，希望如此。
And it's the preparation that can be really expensive because you're hiring a highly skilled person and paying them fairly, hopefully.
因此，这可能需要大量手工技能劳动的时间。
And so that can be a lot of hours of manual skilled labor.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
人们已经为此提供了资金。
And people have funded that.
人们已经找到了为这项工作筹资的方式。
People have found, like, ways to fund that.
他们为苏做了这件事，比如，你怎么为这样一具巨大的恐龙化石的修复工作筹资呢？相比之下，卖一只霸王龙比卖一条满嘴牙齿的无颌软体鱼要容易得多。
They did that for Sue, like, how do you fund the preparation of this giant T It's a little bit easier to sell a T Rex than it is to sell a jawless floppy fish covered in teeth.
哦，无颌的。
Oh, a jawless.
我的孩子们不被爱。
My children are not loved.
你的小甜心和那些软趴趴的
Your gummy boys and your floopy
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
无鳍的生物
Finless things.
没错
Yep.
我知道我们还有很多内容要讲，但能不能用赞助者的问题来覆盖一下？
Can I I know we have so much more to cover, but can I cover it with Patreon questions?
当然可以。
Absolutely.
好的。
Okay.
我们来看看他们问了什么。
Let's see what they've asked.
但首先，让我们为亚拉选择的事业捐款。
But first, let's donate to a cause of Yara's choosing.
本周，她选择了同者计划，该计划通过清理街道废墟、清理充满碎片的建筑、租赁和燃料重型机械、派遣大型团队修复被毁社区以及修复被毁的供水管线，帮助希望返回加沙家园的家庭。
And this week, she selected the Sameer Project, which assists families who wanna return home to Gaza by cleaning the streets of rubble, cleaning debris filled structures, renting and fueling heavy machinery, and bringing large crews to tend to destroyed neighborhoods, and working on destroyed water lines.
他们目前还有一个名为‘为加沙送去温暖’的倡议，通过提供毛毯、防水布、帐篷和衣物，保护家庭免受风雨侵袭，并给予关怀与康复的温暖。
They also have an initiative right now called Give Warmth to Gaza, protecting families from the wind and rain, and giving the warmth of care and recovery with blankets, tarps, tents, and clothing.
如需更多关于加沙流离失所以及以色列军事行动造成大规模死亡的背景信息，您可以观看我们的《种族灭绝学》节目，以及近期与世界知名种族灭绝学者迪尔克·摩西博士合作的更新重播版。
And for more context on Gazan displacement and mass deaths from offenses from Israel, you can see our Genocidology episode and its recent updated encore with a world renowned genocide scholar, doctor Dirk Moses.
此次捐款代表的是亚拉·哈里迪博士，非常感谢节目赞助者，正是他们的支持让我们每周都能向一位学者心系的慈善机构捐款。
So that donation was on behalf of doctor Yara Haridy, and thank you so much to sponsors of the show who make it possible to donate to a different charity close to the ologist's hearts each week.
好的。
Okay.
也感谢通过 patreon.com/ologies 提交问题的节目赞助者。
Thanks also to patrons of the show who submit questions before we record via patreon.com/ologies.
要从你们众多精彩而有力的问题中选出第一个开始，真不容易。
It is hard to select which of your strong, toothy contenders to start with.
但赞助人彼得和托姆斯克的格雷戈里乌斯也有一个精彩的提问，其他人也是。
But patrons Peter and Gregorius of Tomsk had a whale of one, as did.
鼠标帕克顿和Spicy Native都想知道，正如Spicy Native所说，鲸须。
Mouse Paxton, Spicy Native, both wanted to know, in Spicy Native's words, baleen.
它是什么时候进化出来的？
When did it evolve?
鼠标问，鲸须算不算牙齿？
Is whale baleen, mouse asks, considered teeth?
哦，这是个非常好的问题。
Oh, it's a very good question.
它到底是什么？
What is it?
我以为它是角蛋白化的。
I I thought it was keratinized.
对吧？
Right?
你说得对。
You're right.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不是牙齿。
So not a teeth.
不是什么odontoin，你明白了吗？
Not a not an o odon o you got it?
odontoin。
Odontoin.
odontoin。
Odontoin.
你懂了。
You got this.
为什么我做不到？
Why can't I do it?
因为你不够相信自己。
Because you're not believing in yourself.
牙质结构。
Odontodes.
牙质结构。
Odontodes.
牙质结构。
Odontodes.
是的。
Yeah.
没关系。
It's fine.
我对这个词还不熟悉。
I'm new at this word.
我们会搞定的。
We'll get it.
我们会搞定的，各位。
We'll get it, guys.
不。
No.
你完全正确。
You're absolutely right.
阿里加10分。
10 points for Ali.
好的。
Okay.
它们完全角质化了。
That they're totally keratinized.
所以如果它们角质化了，就不会有牙本质。
And so if they're keratinized, they don't have dentine.
它们没有釉质。
They don't have enamel.
所以它们不是。
And so they're not.
齿质。
Odontodes.
我做到了。
I it.
我做到了。
I did it.
很好。
Good.
我为你感到骄傲。
I'm so proud of you.
谢谢。
Thank you.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
你的听众提出了一个非常好的问题。
So great question from your listeners.
骨鳞不是牙齿。
Baiolin is not teeth.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
它是完全不同的组织。
It is completely different tissue.
它是从哪里来的？
And where did it come from?
这是个非常好的问题。
That's such a good question.
所以这是一个完整的研究领域，因为我们有化石显示它们可能同时具备这两种特征。
So that's a whole section of study because we have fossils that look like they might have both.
哦。
Oh.
是的。
Yeah.
所以须鲸是从有牙齿的祖先演化而来的。
So so baleen whales came from toothy ancestors.
它们来自长着牙齿的鲸类。
They came from whales that have teeth.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此，在某个时候，它们开始失去一种特征，同时获得另一种特征。
And so at some point, they started losing one and gaining the other.
这是一个相当有争议的话题，因为我觉得有一支团队坚决认为不是这样。
And that is quite like a controversial topic because I think there's, like, one team that's like, no.
它们先失去了牙齿，然后才长出须鲸须，而另一组学者则认为这两者之间存在重叠。
They lost teeth first and then gained baleen, and then another team says that there's an overlap there.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
所以这完全取决于你如何解读这些中间阶段的化石。
So it just depends on how you're interpreting these, like, really middle fossils.
或者你认为这个特定化石嘴唇周围额外的血管和血供，是因为须鲸须，还是仅仅因为它们有肉质的嘴唇？
Or do you think all that extra vascularity, all that extra blood supply around the lip of this certain fossil, is that because of baleen, or is that just because maybe it had fleshy lips?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我不知道。
I don't know.
所以，是的，这是一个完整的研究领域。
So, yeah, that's a whole area.
人们还不完全清楚须鲸须是如何进化的，但我认为人们正在越来越接近真相。
People don't really know exactly how they were baleen evolved, but I think people are getting closer.
那个时期有很多非常有趣的全新化石。
There's a lot of really cool new fossils in that time period.
鲸须因为是角质化的，是吧？
Could baleen, because it's keratinized Mhmm.
会不会就像挂在嘴里的头发一样？
Be sort of like hair that's, like, just hanging out in the mouth?
我的意思是，角蛋白是一种极其多样的组织，是吧？
I mean, keratin is incredibly diverse tissue Mhmm.
因为我们的皮肤含有角蛋白。
Because our skin has keratin.
我们的头发含有角蛋白。
Our hair has keratin.
我们的指甲也是，所以它其实可以在任何地方出现，不过我不是研究鲸类的专家。
Our nails have so it can just be expressed anywhere, really, and I'm not a whaleologist.
是的。
Mhmm.
但我认为它们可能只是在那里重新表达了这种特征。
But I think they probably just re expressed that there.
我不知道中间形态会是什么样子。
I don't know what an intermediate would look like.
也许我长着奇怪的胡子。
Maybe I had, like, weird mustaches.
我不确定。
I don't know.
就像小海象一样。
Like little walrus.
这是个非常好的问题。
That's a really good question.
我们还没做过关于鲸鱼的细胞学专题，但我们做过一期关于功能形态的，讨论过当一头鲸鱼死在海滩上，你必须超速驾驶，后座带着锯子和斧头赶过去，以免它爆炸，结果却被警察拦下了。
We still haven't done a cytology episode about whales, but we have done one on functional morphology that discusses what happens when a whale shows up on a beach dead, and you have to go over the speed limit with a saw and axes in the backseat to get there before it explodes, but you get stopped by the cops.
我和马洛，西鲁兰星球的小伍德女皇，蒂诺斯，想知道瑞安问：鸟喙是牙齿吗？
My and Marlowe, planet Silurane, Empress of Smallwood, Tinos, wanna know Ryan asked, are bird beaks teeth?
哦。
Oh.
鸟喙不是牙齿。
Bird beaks are not teeth.
那是另一种角蛋白结构。
That's another keratin structure.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但鸟类曾经确实有牙齿。
But birds did have teeth at some point.
现在它们没有牙齿了吗？
Do they not have teeth now?
现在鸟类都没有牙齿了。
No birds have teeth now.
哦，明白了。
Oh, okay.
它们怎么了？
What happened to them?
非常好的问题。
Very good question.
不知道。
Don't know.
好吧。
Okay.
它们是怎么咀嚼食物的？
How are they chewing stuff?
它们不咀嚼。
They don't chew.
鸟类不咀嚼。
Birds don't chew.
一点都不？
At all?
嗯嗯。
Mm-mm.
没有。
Nope.
没有。
Nope.
鸟类通常是抓住就吞下去。
Birds kinda like do a grab and swallow.
因为它们有嗉囊。
Because they got the crop.
它们有嗉囊。
They got a crop.
它们的舌头上有时还有角质的小突起，能帮助把食物推回食道。
They also have, like, sometimes little keratin horns on their tongue that that help that help them push things back into their gullet.
是的。
Yeah.
它们的嗉囊里有时会有很多小石子、沙砾之类的东西，帮助它们咀嚼，但它们本质上更像是整粒进食的动物。
Their crop has, like, all these little stones sometimes and grit and stuff that helps them chew, but they're kind of like whole meal eaters, really.
是的。
Yeah.
它们其实并不咀嚼。
They don't really chew.
它们会把东西撕碎，喂给幼鸟之类的，但不会咀嚼。
They'll tear things apart, you know, and feed their babies and stuff, but they won't chew.
有一种假说认为，当鸟类的祖先失去牙齿时，喙就开始完全包覆起来。
There is one hypothesis that basically as teeth were lost in birdie ancestors, that's when the beak started to fully envelop.
因为很难想象喙和牙齿是如何共存的。
Because it's kinda hard to imagine how beak and teeth coexist.
牙齿会穿过喙继续生长吗？
Does the tooth keep growing through the beak?
哦，是的。
How Oh, yeah.
两个组织融合？
Two tissues merge?
我不是说这不可能发生，但就我们目前所知，化石记录中具有真正喙的生物，至少在鸟类这一支系上，通常没有牙齿。
I'm not saying it can't happen, but we just as so far as we know, things that have true beaks in the fossil record do not tend to have teeth, at least in the on the bird side.
所以鸟类是恐龙。
So birds are dinosaurs.
在向鸟类进化的方向上，它们失去了大量牙齿，发展出了完整的角质喙，这是对喙的学术术语。
On the direction of evolving to birds, they lost a lot of their teeth and did full ramphitheca, which is the fancy word for beak.
所以当你被一只鹅攻击，或者被一种叫食火鸡的鸟杀死时。
So when you get attacked by a goose or killed by, like, a cassowary castor cassowary.
食火鸡？
Cassowary?
是的。
Yeah.
它们是在用角蛋白啃咬你吗？
They're gumming you with keratin, sort of?
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