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Inverse Genius 呈现 onboard games 五月，什么才是有趣的游戏？
Inverse Genius presents onboard games May, what is fun?
您正在收听《Onboard Games》，在这里，游戏行业的资深人士会谈论桌游和卡牌游戏爱好，并探讨游戏玩家、设计师和出版商感兴趣的话题。
You are listening to Onboard Games, where game industry veterans talk about the board and card gaming hobby while exploring topics of interest to gamers, designers, and publishers.
在本期节目中，Eric 与 Bruce Vogue III 一起玩得开心，同时我们试图弄清楚是什么让游戏变得有趣。
In this episode, Eric has fun with Bruce Vogue the third while we figure out what it is that makes games fun.
Onboard Games 由我们在 patreon.com/obg 的杰出赞助者支持。
Onboard games is sponsored by our amazing patrons at patreon.com/obg.
非常感谢你们持续的支持。
Thank you so much for your continued support.
所有通过 Patreon 支持的资金都用于支付我们每月的播客成本，这让我们无比感激。
Everything that comes in through Patreon goes to cover our monthly podcasting cost, which is incredibly appreciated.
谢谢。
Thank you.
嘿。
Hey.
我们非常重视反馈。
We live for feedback.
你可以通过电子邮件联系我们：onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com。
You can send us email at onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com.
你也可以关注我们的Facebook或Twitter账号：inverse genius。
You can go to our Facebook or Twitter accounts at, inverse genius.
还有我们的社群：BoardGameGeek上的guild three two five，也总是很期待大家的关注。
And our guild, guild three two five on board game geek, always loves to get a little attention as well.
告诉我们，你觉得桌游哪里有趣？
Let us know what you find fun about board games.
嘿。
Hey.
我们有个周边商店，聊聊有趣的东西。
We have a merch store, talk about fun.
如果你需要一些OBG的周边商品，只需访问inversegenius.com，点击商店链接，就能像我一样穿上酷炫的周边了。
If you need some OBG swag, you can just go to inversegenius.com and click on the store link and be sporting some cool swag just like me.
和往常一样，我们非常感谢听众，请把《Onboard Games》推荐给那些可能喜欢它的人。
And as always, we appreciate listeners, so spread the news of onboard games to those you think might enjoy it.
谢谢。
Thanks.
大家好，欢迎收听《Onboard Games》的又一精彩节目。
Hello, and welcome to another incredible episode of onboard games.
我是您的主持人埃里克·杜威。
I'm your host, Eric Dewey.
你可以
You can
我可以在 ericdewey.com 找到。
find me at ericdewey.com.
埃里克，a y r k，几乎遍布整个互联网，尤其是在板游戏迷网站上。
Eric, a y r k, pretty much all over the Internet, especially at board game geek.
和我一起的这位先生，是把乐趣注入‘超級艦長·次元放克’的阿玛达——布鲁斯·沃格三世。
And with me, the man who puts the fun in the super admiral of the subspace funk, Armada, mister Bruce Vogue the third.
哦，那个很难，那是个棘手的问题。
Oh, that was a hard that's a tough one.
那个问题很难答对。
That's a tough one to get right.
我甚至都不尝试去做了。
I don't even try to do that.
但是，没错，我就是那位副司令
But, yes, I am the sub admiral
亚空间舰队上将。
admiral of the the sub space Space.
放克舰队。
Funk armada.
放克舰队。
Funk armada.
我有一块牌匾上写着这个。
I have a plaque that says it.
是的。
Yes.
你确实如此。
You do.
你最近怎么样？
How are you doing?
我过得非常好。
I am doing fabulous.
你呢？
And yourself?
很棒。
Fantastic.
很棒。
Fantastic.
就像任何
Just like any
我们应当在我们为Flip给我的那个标题发愁的时候就把这个拿出来。
We should get that out while we were struggling with whatever that title is that Flip gave me.
是的。
Yes.
所以，布鲁斯，最近有什么新的或值得注意的事情吗？
So, Bruce, anything new and or noteworthy lately?
我玩了这么多新游戏，埃里克。
I have played so many new games, Eric.
做好准备吧。
Brake brace yourself.
我接受。
I embrace.
太多了。
So much so.
所以让我问你一下，埃里克，我们会一一谈到的。
So let me ask you, Eric, and I we'll get to them all.
你是想要那些更符合我平时玩的类型的游戏，还是想要一些完全不符合我风格、因为别人让我玩而体验的游戏？
Do you want the ones that feel more like a game I would play, or do you want something that feels wholly and completely off character because someone else had me play it?
我们可以在中间穿插一些不符合风格的。
Let's mix the off character in the middle somewhere.
让它们给我们惊喜。
Let it surprise us.
那我先从一款非常符合我风格的游戏开始。
Well, I'm gonna start with a game that's very on brand for me.
这款游戏叫《棒球卡总经理》。
It is a game called Baseball Card GM.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
顾名思义，就是字面上的意思。
It is exactly what it sounds like.
这款游戏是2004年由加勒特·韦弗创作的，当时他只有七岁，因为他想用自己的棒球卡玩游戏。
It's it was created in 2004 when Garrett Weaver, a then seven year old, created this game because he wanted to play with his baseball cards.
真棒。
Neat.
天哪。
And gosh darn it.
他做得相当不错。
He did a pretty good job on this.
所以我是在节日期间订购了这个，这个游戏本质上是一块大号的尼龙橡胶垫、一些玻璃珠、一对骰子和一个放大镜。
So I I ordered this one around the holidays, and, essentially, the game is a big neoprene mat, some glass beads, a pair of dice, and a magnifying glass.
这是因为你在用真实的棒球卡玩一个模拟棒球游戏。
And it is because you are playing a simulation baseball game with actual baseball cards.
棋盘足够大，可以摆下你完整的九人阵容，假设包括八名位置球员和一名指定击球手，因为现在棒球都是这么玩的。
The layout is big enough for you to lay out your full nine player team, assuming eight position players and a designated hitter because that's how we do all of baseball now.
你还可以使用投手。
You can have pitchers.
他们增加了额外的规则。
They add extra rules.
但本质上，如果你玩过任何模拟棒球游戏，这个会让你觉得非常熟悉。
But, essentially, if you've ever played a simulation baseball game, this is gonna feel familiar to you.
它使用了一种系统，但我也不太清楚。
It uses a system, and I don't know.
你可能知道这叫什么，埃里克。
You might know what this is called, Eric.
我不知道。
I do not.
我知道这种系统在体育中广泛应用，就是你掷两颗骰子，然后用较小的数字和较大的数字组合。
I know it's used all throughout sports, but where you, like, throw two dice and you call them by the lowest number and then the highest number.
所以1和6组合成16，而不存在61。
So a one six is a 16, and there is no 61.
只有16。
There is a 16.
它使用的就是这种系统。
It uses that kind of system.
本质上，你掷骰子，它们会告诉你需要查看你属性栏中的哪项属性。
And, essentially, you roll the dice, and they're gonna tell you which stat on your stat line you need to look at.
所以有时是安打。
So sometimes it's hits.
有时是保送。
Sometimes it's walks.
有时它总是某种击球统计数据。
Sometimes it's it's always gonna be some kind of batting statistic.
然后当你查看你的数字落在哪里时，通常会有两种结果。
And then when you look at where your number lands, it usually gives you two outcomes.
一种情况是，如果你在那项统计数据上是更优秀的球员；另一种情况是，如果你在那项统计数据上表现较差。
One, if you are a better player in that statistic, and one, if you are a worse player in that statistic.
你只需利用这一点，让你的卡牌与其他人的卡牌进行对战。
And you simply use that to have your cards fight someone else's cards.
这可以说是此类游戏中最简单的系统了。
It is the most simplistic system for this it can be.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我认为这正是它的优点所在，因为这款游戏本质上是一款自动对战游戏。
And I think that is far to its benefit because what this game does effectively is it is an auto battler.
你排好你的卡牌，任何玩过模拟游戏的人都知道。
You line your cards up, and anybody that's done simulation gaming knows.
模拟游戏的关键在于，你不是在操控一支队伍。
The key to simulation gaming is you're not playing a team.
你没有选择立场。
You don't have a side.
你只是掷骰子，然后根据结果看看体育比赛中会发生什么。
You're rolling dice, and you're doing things to just see what would happen in sports.
任何类似决策的事情，通常在你第一次掷骰子之前就已经做好了。
Anything that you do that's like a a decision, you have normally made before you've thrown the dice the first time.
明白了。
Gotcha.
这一点在这里也同样适用。
And the same holds true here.
明白了。
Gotcha.
这几乎就像在《万智牌》里组一套牌。
Almost like building a deck in magic the gathering.
完全就像在《万智牌》里组一套牌。
Precisely like building a deck in magic the gathering.
不过我想说的是，万智牌在整局游戏中提供了更多操作空间，因为很多人会告诉你，如果你是一名优秀的万智牌玩家，理解卡牌运作机制，甚至拿到一副完全陌生的套牌，只需看几张牌就能明白：哦，我知道这套牌想怎么打了。
Although here's what I would say is magic has more play throughout the game because as many people will tell you, if you are a good magic player and you understand how the cards work and you can even you can be handed a blind deck and kinda look a couple cards and you're like, oh, I know what this deck wants to do.
我能比你玩得更好。
I'll play it better than you.
但这游戏并没有真正给你那样的机会。
This doesn't really give you that opportunity.
你组好套牌，然后就结束了。
You build the deck and then you're done.
你组建好队伍后，就到了自动战斗的时候了。
You put your team together and now it's time to auto battle, essentially.
是的。
Mhmm.
你可以时不时地决定，比如让速度快的跑者从一垒冲到二垒，或者从二垒冲到三垒。
You can you can decide every once in a while to, like, send a runner from first to second if they're fast or second to third.
但除此之外，你在这过程中其实没什么可决策的。
But past that, you really don't have decisions in this.
我认为正因如此，有时会有评论说：我不明白这为什么算个游戏。
And I think because of that, sometimes there are reviews that are things like, I don't know why this is a game.
你就是扔骰子而已。
You just roll dice.
如果你这么想，那你真的没理解这个游戏的精髓所在——游戏的真正乐趣在于你提前组建的队伍。
And I think if you think that, you really do not understand where the game is here because the game was in the team you built ahead of time.
明白了。
Gotcha.
我觉得它的简洁性。
I think its simplicity.
我正在看它在Board Game Geek上的评分。
I'm looking at the board game geek rating on it.
它的复杂度是1，我觉得这个程度刚刚好。
It's a weight of one, which I think feels about right.
它非常简单，而我真的很喜欢。
It is just dead simple, and I really enjoy it.
我唯一要注意的是，这个游戏的好坏取决于你放入的卡牌。
The one thing I will notice is that the game is only as good as the cards you put in.
所以你的输入会影响你的输出。
So your inputs affect your outputs.
对我来说，这意味着如果你是个棒球卡爱好者，而我们现在正处于冬天，埃里克。
For me, what that meant was if you are a baseball card type person and we are in the winter right now, Eric.
我们现在录制这段内容，我不知道是在一月的什么时候。
We're recording this, I don't know, sometime in January.
所以如果你去当地的塔吉特百货，那里卖的卡片都是所谓的Tops更新系列。
So if you go to your local Target, the cards that are there are for what's called the update series of tops.
这意味着所有被交易的球员和所有新秀。
What that means is all the players that have been traded and all the new rookies.
所以这些都不是什么厉害的球员。
So it's nobody that's amazing.
即使有厉害的，他们的卡片背面也没有数据。
And if they are, their card doesn't have stats on the back.
它只是告诉你：天哪。
It just tells you, oh my goodness.
这人真的太棒了。
This guy's really awesome.
所以你不能用这些卡片玩这个游戏，因为‘棒’不是一项数据。
So you can't use them for this game because awesome is not a stat.
因此，总的来说，你手里的都是垃圾球员。
So you have garbage players by and large.
所以我们尝试只用密封的大包顶级卡来玩，结果我们组建的队伍并不理想。
So we tried playing it with just a sealed big packs of tops, and the teams we made were not good.
因为每次你查看击球数据时，它们会说，哦，他们需要击球率超过两成五。
Because every time you'd go to, like, a hitting stat, they would say, oh, they need to hit over two fifty.
然后你就会发现，哎呀，他们只打出了一成三一的击球率。
And you'd like, oh, well, they hit one thirty one.
所以每次我们遇到的每个人，拿到的都是最差的数据统计。
So every time we got the worst statistic for everyone we encountered.
这导致了一场——我不想说是糟糕的棒球比赛，但那确实是漫长的九局，我以零比一输了，这在现实中也是可能发生的结果。
And that made I don't wanna say a miserable game of baseball, but it was a long nine innings where I lost one nothing, which is how it would work out in real life.
所以它在模拟方面做得不错，但我要说的是，如果你想让游戏感觉更有活力，用更好的球员来组牌是非常重要的，这从逻辑上讲也是你会做的事，但我们只是碰巧遇到了一个罕见的玩法情况。
So it does a good job of doing the sim properly, but I will say it is super important if you want this to feel livelier that you stack the deck with better players, which is logically what you would do, but we just ended up in a rare circumstance of how we were trying to play it.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这会是其中一件我觉得有趣的事情。
I think it would be one of the things I think is fun.
首先，我喜欢用统计数据这个想法，因为卡片上总是有数字，这太棒了。
First of all, I love the idea of using the stats because there's always numbers on the card, and it's brilliant.
然后，仅仅去挑选球员就会非常有趣，你知道的，天哪。
And then it'd be so much fun just to start grabbing, you know, oh, man.
让我们把韦德·博格斯、达里尔·草莓，还有马克·麦奎尔都放进去。
Let's put a Wade Boggs and a Daryl Strawberry and a, you know, Mark McGuire.
我总是不自觉地从同一个时代挑选球员。
I'm I keep peeking from the same era.
我正试着想想不同年代的棒球选手。
I'm trying to think of different, you know, decades of baseball.
而且
And
让1986年的达里尔·草莓和2024年的大谷翔平，还有上世纪七十年代的威利·斯塔格尔一起打球，这个想法太棒了。
Oh, the idea of having an 86 Darryl Strawberry playing with a 2024 Shoahi Ohtani playing with, you know, a Willie Stargel from back in the seventies is brilliant.
所以对我来说，我做的另一件事是，我去了一家几乎废弃、破败的商场，买了一些东西。
So for me, the other thing I did was was I just bought I was at a defunct, nearly dilapidated mall.
不知为何，那里有一张桌子，有人在卖交易卡。
And for some reason, there was a table of someone selling trading cards.
他们有的东西之一是一套完整的一九九八年Topps系列，我花了20美元买下。
And one of the things they had was a complete nineteen ninety eight set of tops that I bought for $20.
哦，所以现在我有了所有98年的球队阵容，随时可以开玩。
Oh, so Now I have all of the 98 teams ready to play.
这真是太棒了。
That is great.
我认为对很多人来说，这个游戏的乐趣在于组建球队的各种方式。
I I think the fun in this for a lot of people is gonna be the ways in which you can build a team.
对吧？
Right?
假设你和我决定去参加本地的球星卡交易会。
So let's say you and I decide to go to our local trading card convention.
我觉得可以设定一个规则：允许花费10美元，用这10美元能组建出的阵容就是你的球队。
I think a world where you're allowed to spend $10, and whatever you can build for $10 is your team.
所以就是我们翻遍那些50美分一堆的卡片，你知道的，不仅要找好球员的卡，还得是背面有数据的那种。
So it's us running through 50¢ stacks, you know, trying to find not only cards of good players, but that actually have stats on the back.
所以它们不能只是，比如，他们出了一张小卡尔·瑞普肯的闪卡。
So they can't just be like, they made a shiny card of Cal Ripken junior.
它必须得是他的一张有数据的卡，我才能从上面提取数据。
It's gonna actually have to be one of his cards for me to pull any stats from it.
我觉得这听起来很有意思。
I think that sounds like fun.
我认为可以选取特定年份的球队套装。
I think taking the team sets from a given year.
我觉得，如果你拥有的是除更新系列外的任何一套顶级系列，比如系列一或系列二，那里聚集着普通的棒球球员，我认为你可以从目标商店买两包，扔一包给你的朋友，打开它们，然后用其中一个所谓的'肥包'来组建一支球队，那种包装里大概有30到40张卡。
I think if you were in any series of tops other than update, if you were in series one or series two where, like, normal baseball players hang out, I think you could just pull two packs from the target, throw one to your friend, open them up, and build a team out of one of the what they call the fat packs so they have, like, 30 or 40 cards on them.
我认为这款游戏的乐趣就在于这里，在于组建混合球队，在于如果你是那种三十年前小时候收集过棒球卡、现在某个地方还放着一盒随机卡片的人，你现在终于有事情可以用它们做了，因为它们本身并不值钱。
I think that's where the fun of this game sits is in doing that, in building mixed teams, in if you're the kind of person where you collected baseball cards when you were a kid thirty years ago and you have a random box of them somewhere, you now have something to do with them because they're not worth anything.
对。
Right.
这太棒了。
Well, that is awesome.
棒球卡总经理。
Baseball card GM.
我觉得这非常酷。
I think that's super cool.
关于评分，我想说一点。
Here's what I will say for it as far as a rating.
如果你不喜欢棒球，这对你来说没有任何改变。
If you don't like baseball, this is not changing anything for you.
如果你听到的任何内容听起来有趣，你大概应该试试看。
If anything you heard sounds interesting, you probably wanna give this a try.
我喜欢这个。
I like it.
是的。
So Yep.
我们收到了一封邮件，来自一位通过你，布鲁斯，了解到这个节目的观众。
We received an email in our mailbag from someone who actually came to the show through you, Bruce.
尤里。
Uri.
哦。
Oh.
尤里是‘人做事情’这款产品的设计师。
Uri is the designer of person do thing.
是的。
So Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
当然。
Absolutely.
我们聊过。
We have talked.
我谈过关于person do thing的事。
I've talked about person do thing.
我仍然觉得这是一款很棒的游戏。
I still think it's a lovely game.
我仍然觉得它需要一个计分系统。
I still think it needs a scoring system.
我不知道这个计分系统该是什么样的。
I don't know what that scoring system would be.
他提到关于评价之类的一件事是，他对其他能带来类似体验的游戏感到好奇。
So one of the things he mentioned about reviews and stuff is that he is curious about other games that scratch a similar itch.
所以，我们谈到了棒球卡经理游戏。
So, you know, we talked about baseball card GM.
还有其他棒球类游戏吗？我的意思是，你有像Play这样的游戏，你知道的，有棒球统计数据，当然还有Stat-O-Matic。
Are there other baseballs I mean, you got, like, play has, you know, baseball stats and, of course, stat o matic, of course.
当然。
Absolutely.
有一大类游戏都做这件事，具体取决于你想深入到什么程度。
There's a really kinda rich group of games that do this depending on how in the weeds you wanna get.
对吧？
Right?
棒球卡经理绝对是离平坦沥青路最远的那个。
So baseball card GM is absolutely as far on flat blacktop as you can possibly get.
如果你只是想浅尝辄止，看看它是什么样子，那它是个绝佳的入门选择。
If you just wanna dabble in it and you wanna see what it's like, it's a great starting space.
Play，p-l-a-a-y，我们以前聊过他们。
Play, p l a a y, we've talked about them before.
他们做了一个很棒的版本，把统计数据藏在文字背后，让你感觉更像在读故事，而不是去查某个球员某年的打击数据。
They do a great version where it hides the statistics behind words, so it feels much more like a story than, like, a let me go look at the hitting of this guy in this year.
所有数据其实都在背后，但它用‘击中’、‘猛击’、‘精彩’这类词来告诉你球员的情况，这是一个很棒的改进。
It's all there hidden behind it, but it uses words like hit or crack or fresh or, you know, to, like, tell you things about the players, which is a great step.
很多人知道Stratomatic，当然，它会清楚地展示所有数字。
A lot of people know Stratomatic, which, of course, very much shows you where all the numbers are.
这真是太棒了。
It is awesome.
我们还尝试过另一个叫'决胜投球'的游戏，它本质上也是一个双骰子系统，和这个类似，但它要求你购买其专属卡牌。
There's one other one we try called payoff pitch, which essentially is like a two die system much like this one is, but it wants you to buy its proprietary cards.
但本质上，每一次掷骰子都是'决胜投球'，在棒球中这意味着将决定结果的那一投。
But, essentially, every single die roll is the payoff pitch, which in baseball means the pitch that's gonna determine what happens.
所以，如果是三坏球两好球的情况，这就是决胜投球。
So if you are three balls and two strikes, this is the payoff pitch.
无论这一投是什么，它都将决定某些结果，因为我们要么会让这家伙保送上垒，要么就会发生点什么，因为除非再出现界外球，否则就没有更多机会了，然后我们称下一投为决胜球。
Whatever this pitch is, it's going to determine something because we're either gonna walk this guy or there's gonna be like, something's got to happen here because there's no more opportunity unless it's another foul ball, and then we call the next one a payoff pitch.
因为在某个时刻，我们会从这次击打中获得回报。
Because at some point, we're gonna get the payoff for this at bat.
那个也是我之前非常感兴趣的一款，直到我看到了棒球卡经理游戏。
That one's also that was one I was very interested in until I saw baseball card GM.
我当时就想，哦，它给人一种类似的感觉，就像那种凝视远方的感觉，但我可以用棒球卡，而不必购买专有的卡包。
And I was like, oh, it's it feels like a, a similar feel from a thousand yard stare, but I can use baseball cards instead of having to buy proprietary card packs
是的
Yeah.
为了能够玩游戏。
To be allowed to play.
是的
Yeah.
你可以去跳蚤市场淘一堆卡片，随便捡一堆。
You could scoop up you hit garage sales and just scoop up Yeah.
东西。
Stuff.
你可以去塔吉特超市买两大包卡片，和朋友一起玩，或者像我知道的，有很多方式可以让那些算是爱好者但并非狂热玩家的人也玩得开心。
And and exact and, like, you go to the Target and buy two big packs of cards and play with a friend or go to know, like, I think there's a lot of ways that this game can be played by people that are, like, sort of enthusiasts, but not really, that could be fun.
我觉得这款游戏会吸引很多人。
I think this will be one that will grab a lot of people.
就像我说的，你九十年代收集过卡片，现在可能还有一箱随机的卡片放在某处，虽然不值钱，但都是你曾经喜欢的球员。
Like I said, you collected cards in the nineties, and you have a random, like, long box of cards sitting somewhere that you've accepted or not worth anything but were players you really liked.
而且你可能想和别人玩这个游戏，尤其是孩子，因为这是一款非常简单的游戏。
And maybe you wanna play that with someone, especially children because this is such a this is such an easy game.
它 literally 就是掷两颗骰子，看看结果，必要时查一下图表或卡片，然后再次掷骰子。
It's it literally is roll two dice, look at the thing, consult a chart or card if need be, time to roll two dice again.
所以我们玩的整个九局比赛，大概只花了十五分钟。
So an entire nine inning game we played in, like, maybe fifteen minutes.
哦，这真不错。
Oh, that's nice.
是的。
Yep.
太棒了。
Well, cool.
我收到一个叫 Sensu 的游戏，拼写是 s-e-n-s-u。
I got in the mail a game called Sensu, s e n s u.
好的。
Okay.
这是一款卡牌游戏。
It's a card game.
我之前提到过这个游戏，但那时你还没上节目。
I talked about it before, but you weren't on the show at the time.
但它完全是关于日本制作扇子的艺术，就是那种会飘落又弹回的小扇子。
But it is all about the Japanese art of making fans, you know, those little fans that kind of fall out and come back.
是的。
Yeah.
我先讲一下基本规则，当然如果你想要更多游戏化元素，还有一些进阶规则。
And so there are in the I'm just gonna talk about the basic rules, but there are some advanced rules if you want a little more gamification to it.
但基本上，有五种不同的扇子，每张牌上都有一定数量的扇叶和对应的分数。
But basically, there are all these different cards for five different fans, and the card has a certain number of fan blades and a value on it.
好的。
And Okay.
你有自己的弃牌堆。
You you have your own discard pile.
每位玩家都有自己的弃牌堆。
Each player has their own discard pile.
在你的回合中，你基本上可以抽两张牌然后弃一张，或者从弃牌堆中取一张牌——无论是自己的还是别人的。
And on your turn, you basically draw either draw two cards and discard one or take a card from a discard pile, yours or somebody else's.
好的。
Okay.
如果你不想抽牌，而你手中的牌总点数为15，就可以打出这些牌。
If you don't want to draw a card, if you have cards that total a value of 15, then you play them.
有一些牌是三、四、五点，或者一、二、三点，这样能增加一些变化。
There are a few cards that are like three, four, fives or one, two, threes so you can get some variability.
然后你打出这些牌，其中扇叶数量最多的那张（我称它们为‘枝’）会放在你面前。
So then you play those cards, whichever one has the most I call them sticks, but the most blades on the fan is played in front of you.
如果你的牌点数匹配，就可以打出扇叶数量最少的那张。
And then if you match numbers, you can play one that has the least amount.
如果你的牌颜色匹配，也可以打出扇叶数量最少的那张。
And if you match colors, you could play the one that has the least amount.
你的目标是让你的风扇上凑齐七片叶片。
And what you're trying to do is get seven blades on your fan.
一旦你在一个特定颜色上凑齐了七片叶片，你就完成了那个风扇。
And then once you get seven blades on a particular color, then you've gotten that fan.
最先集齐三个风扇的玩家将触发游戏结束，拥有最多已完成风扇的玩家获胜。
And then whoever gets the three fans first, that triggers the end game, and whoever has the most completed fans wins the game.
所以，好的。
So Okay.
从规则上来说，这个游戏非常简单直接。
Real rules wise, it's pretty simple and straightforward.
对。
Yeah.
从玩法上来说，这非常有趣，因为你不断来回权衡：如果我出这张牌，这个风扇就完成了。
Gameplay wise, it's a lot of fun because you're you're you're kinda bouncing back and forth like, oh, if I play this one, then this fan's gonna be played.
但我又不希望这张牌被打出。
But I don't want that card to be played.
我想让其他牌被打出来。
I want some other card to be played.
所以我得试着去琢磨，你知道，这其中的思考量比表面上看起来要多得多。
So I gotta try and figure out, you know, kind of there's a lot more thinking involved than than it just kinda looks on the on the surface.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这些卡牌本身非常精美。
And the cards themselves are beautiful.
它们它们有点，所以它们的高度远大于宽度
They're they're kinda, so they're much taller than they are wide
是的。
Yeah.
但也不是特别大。
But not super big.
但它们上面有，比如，金箔，所以有一些小小的亮点，而且，你知道，所有的东西都是
But they have, like, gold foil on so little highlights of them and, you know, everything's
哦，真棒。
Oh, nice.
做得非常精美。
Very beautifully done.
我已经爱上了这个游戏。
And I've just fallen in love with this game.
我只是觉得这个游戏的概念非常容易理解。
I just love the the concept is really easy to get across.
它很容易上手，但其中包含很多策略和思考，却不会让人脑力透支。
It's really easy to play, but there is a lot of strategy and thought that's involved, but it's not like a brain burner.
所以我非常喜欢SenSou这个游戏。
So I really have enjoyed SenSou quite a bit.
真好。
Nice.
所以，你刚才说的有一件事，我觉得我有点想不明白。
So then how would there's something I feel like I can't wrap my head around in what you said.
如果你需要三个扇子来结束游戏的话。
If if you end you need three fans to end the game.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
三个完成的扇子。
Three completed fans.
三个完成的扇子。
Three completed fans.
你怎么可能不是拥有最多完成扇子的人呢？
How would you not be the person with the most completed fans?
会不会有什么最后时刻的操作让别人超过你？
Is there, like, some last minute play that could push somebody beyond you?
是的。
Yeah.
所以基本上每个人都会获得相同数量的回合。
So you basically everyone gets the same number of turns.
所以，无论谁触发了终局，其他人都有一次最后的机会，可以快速出牌完成一个。
So if whoever triggers the endgame, everyone else, you know, may has one last chance to quickly play and put one out there.
通常是这个人。
Normally, is that person.
好的。
Okay.
但偶尔，如果你已经有一张牌准备就绪，就放在弹仓里那种情况。
But every so often, you know, if you have one in the in the chamber ready to go kinda thing.
真不错。
So Nice.
至于进阶模式，我读过规则了。
And then the advanced game, I've read the rules.
我真的很喜欢。
I really like it.
我还没说服我妻子玩这个游戏，因为她喜欢基础版的简洁性。
I haven't convinced my wife to play it yet cause she likes the simplicity of the basic game.
但在这一版中，当你打出某些扩展卡时，根据颜色不同，它们会赋予你特殊能力，或者让你收集分数。
But in this one, when you when you play certain fan cards, depending on the color, they have a special power that you can use or you can collect points.
所以你可以用它来实现，比如现在可以抽两张牌而不是一张，诸如此类的效果。
And so then you can use it like, oh, I can now draw two cards instead of one and, you know, that kind of stuff.
这就是它带有的游戏化元素。
And so that's kind of the gamification part of it.
好的。
Okay.
但是
But
不过，我对Sensu一直很满意，我们会继续玩下去。
still, I've really been happy with Sensu, and we'll continue to play it.
它非常精美，而且特别有趣。
It's very beautiful and a lot of fun.
太酷了。
Very cool.
太酷了。
Very cool.
我马上去玩一局游戏，说到简单性，我确实认为它的魅力就在于简单。
I'm gonna jump onto a game real fast speaking of simplicity that I do truly believe it is in its simplicity where it is brilliant.
这是你之前提到过的一款游戏，我就是因为听了你的推荐才买的，就是《Bomb Busters》。
This is a game that you have talked about and I bought because of you, and this is bomb burst.
太好了。
Yay.
《Bomb Busters》。
Bomb busters.
我终于入手了《Bomb Busters》。
I finally picked up bomb busters.
我现在和四个人一起玩。
I'm playing it with a group of four.
你知道的，你已经聊过很多次了，所以也没什么好说的。
I you know, you've talked about it a ton, so there's not really much to say.
它今年赢得了Spiel des Jahres奖，所以我猜大多数听众都应该知道这款游戏。
It won the Spiel du Jard this year, so it's gonna be a game that I would imagine most listeners are gonna know.
我从来不是推理类游戏的铁粉。
I can say I've never been the biggest fan of deduction games.
我不讨厌它们，但我也谈不上有多喜欢。
I don't hate them, but I don't I don't find myself loving them either.
我认为部分原因是，大多数推理游戏要求你同时关注太多不同的维度，这不合我口味。
And I think part of it is that most deduction games want you working on too many different axis for my taste.
你知道，本来有X和Y就已经够多了，但一旦再加上Z和Θ，我的眼睛就开始发花，甚至会犯一些实际的错误——比如你问我关于Θ的问题时，我却回答了Y轴的内容，根本没意识到自己答错了。
You know, there's just too many I can do x and y, but once you add x, y, z, and theta, it's my eyes start to glaze over, and I'll start to, like, make actual mistakes where you'll ask me about theta, and I'll answer from the y axis, not realizing I didn't say the right thing.
但一旦我说自己说错了，那就破坏了游戏规则。
But then I can't tell you anymore that I said the wrong thing because that breaks the game.
而《Bomb Busters》的妙处在于，它只涉及数字和几根导线，复杂度是逐步增加的，我特别喜欢这一点，因为它的机制足够直接，以至于在四人游戏中，有时桌上的其他人即使看不到我的牌，也能理解我的处境。
So with with bomb busters, the idea that it's just the numbers and a couple of wires and that everything slowly gets more complex, I really like because it's just straightforward enough that I have found with four people, sometimes someone else at the table will understand my problem without seeing my cards.
对。
Right.
然后可以说，你知道，假设我有一根黄线。
And can say, you know, let's pretend I had a yellow wire.
我不能告诉你我有，但假设我有。
I can't tell you I do, but let's pretend I did.
我可能会和他们沟通，因为我会意识到我的黄线和他们的黄线必须匹配，因为其他所有线索都缺失了。
I might talk to them because I would realize that my yellow wire and their yellow wire would have to match because everything else is missing.
而且游戏中有足够的内容，让你可以在不作弊、不透露太多信息的情况下做出这些假设，但它的实际结构足够简单，如果你反应够快，就能从别人手中的牌和他们艰难的决定中看出端倪。
And there's enough in the game there that you can make those assumptions without cheating, without giving too much away, but the actual, like, structure of it is simple enough that if you're really on the ball, you can see that in somebody else's hand and their labored decisions.
是的。
Yes.
这一点我真的很喜欢。
And there's something about that I really, really like.
希望我们能继续深入探讨。
I hope we go further.
但是，你知道，每次你和游戏团队在一起时，你可能会想，哦，总共只有67个场景。
But, you know, anytime you're with a game group, you're like, oh, well, there's only 67 scenarios.
你就会觉得，嗯，这永远不可能发生。
You're like, well, this is never gonna happen.
不过我现在可以说，我真的很享受这个过程。
So But I can say right now that I really enjoy it.
再次强调，我非常喜欢的一点就是游戏中的决策是多么直接明了，尤其是在游戏初期。
And once again, part of what I really like is just how straightforward the actual decisions are, especially early in the game.
我只是想提醒一下大家，我现在还处于训练阶段，所以不知道后面会变得多复杂。
I'm just as a note for anybody out there, I'm still in the training days, so I don't know how crazy it gets.
但目前在训练阶段，我感觉难度是逐步提升的，这让我觉得自己能理解规则，而且玩得很开心。
But right now in training days, I feel like the it is ramping up slowly enough that I feel like I understand it, and I'm enjoying it.
是的。
Yeah.
我们现在是66关中的第64关。
We we are currently on 64 out of 66.
不错。
Nice.
这个会花我们一点时间，因为这是那种在双人对战时通常最后会变成五五开选择的情况。
And this one's gonna take us a bit because it's one of these ones that's gonna is usually ends up to be like a fifty fifty choice at the end for us because we're playing two player.
但还是很有趣。
But it is still a lot of fun.
我要说的是，我注意到当他们增加复杂性时，通常都是很简单的复杂。
And what I will say, what I've noticed is that when they add complexity, it's usually very simple complexity.
并不总是这样。
Not always.
好吧。
Okay.
几乎总是这样，比如他们会加入一个新机制，用起来特别简单，然后我们也不会再用它很久，之后再稍微扩展一下。
Almost usually, it was like, oh, now we're gonna, you know, throw in this new mechanic, and it's real simple to use, and then we're not gonna use it again for a little while longer, and then we're gonna build on it a little bit.
对。
Yep.
我不喜欢他们加入的所有机制。
I don't like all of the mechanics that they throw in there.
但我也不讨厌其中任何一个。
But I do enjoy I don't hate any of them.
总体来说，被迫改变还挺有趣的，尤其是玩了四五十局之后，你的思维模式已经非常固定了，就像克鲁斯蒂小丑在重复录播他的内容一样。
And overall, it's kind of fun having to change because after especially after, like, 40 or 50 games, you really get your your thought process down, you know, and you're kinda like Krusty the Clown recording his recorded things.
嘿。
Like, hey.
嘿。
Hey.
砰。
Bang.
砰。
Bang.
砰。
Bang.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
砰。
Bang.
砰。
Bang.
然后游戏说：哦，顺便说一下，你只能猜奇数。
And then the game says, oh, but by the way, you can only guess odd numbers.
你就会说：好吧。
You're like, okay.
等等。
Wait.
咱们慢点，重新想想。
Let's slow down here, you know, kinda rethink it again.
所以啊，是的。
So I yeah.
我同意你的看法。
I'm with you.
我太喜欢了。
I love it.
实际上，自从我去年开始记录数据以来，那是我们玩得最多的游戏，也是我去年玩得最多的游戏。
It was actually since I started keeping stats last year, that was the most played game that we did, that I played last year.
其中很多原因是因为我和艾米玩的是双人模式，这个游戏非常容易上手，随时都能拿出来玩。
And a lot of it is because Amy and I play a two player, and it's really easy game just to break out and and move forward on.
给《Bombusters》点个大大的赞。
So big thumbs up for Bombusters.
是的。
Yeah.
正如我所说，我得说我现在还处于新手阶段，但到目前为止我非常喜欢，而且我看不出有什么能改变这一点。
I like I said, I gotta say, I'm still in the training days, but I am a big fan so far, and I don't see what would happen that would take that away from me.
我也非常喜欢，这款游戏感觉会像一款战役游戏，但又不是那种玩过一次就再也回不去、再也找不到乐趣的战役游戏。
I also really like that this feels like it's gonna be a campaign game, but not a campaign game where I can't go back to an old campaign and still find it entertaining.
对。
Yes.
你知道，它不是那种随着游戏进程就把战役内容耗尽的游戏。
You know, it's not one of those where it shreds its campaign as you go along.
因为你会想，哎，我已经见过托马斯那个矮人法师之类的了。
Because you're like, well, I've already seen Thomas the dwarven wizard or whatever.
对吧。
Right.
你知道，它完全不是那种情况。
You know, it's it's none of that.
它就是简单地说，嘿。
It's just like, hey.
它更像是，嘿。
It's more, hey.
你知道你要做什么吗？
You know what you're gonna do?
你要摇一摇一盒数字，然后扔出一些数字。
You're gonna shake up a box of numbers and throw some numbers around.
正是由于这种简洁性，虽然故事性不算很强，但你完全可以重玩之前的内容。
There's just nothing because of that simplicity, Although not sort of not a strong story, you can very much replay earlier things.
老兄，那个故事真是费尽心思。
Man, that story tries so hard.
比如，每个盒子
Like, each box
都包含了它想要的一切。
has all it wants to.
从故事性来说。
Story wise.
是的。
Yeah.
然后它就像是，好吧。
And it's it's like, okay.
那没问题。
That's fine.
是的。
Yeah.
当我们把它带到一个私人游戏展时，我们才刚刚触及皮毛。
When we took it to to, like, a private game convention, and we had barely scratched the surface.
比如，我们只打开了一盒。
Like, we opened one box.
于是我看着人们玩，心想，哦，等等。
And so I was seeing people play it, and I was like, oh, hey.
你知道，那是我的那份。
You know, that's my copy.
他们说，对。
And they're like, yeah.
而且他们就是那种人，说：‘其实要到第30个任务左右才真正有意思。’
And and they were one of those people that was like, well, it doesn't really get interesting until mission 30 or something like that.
我就说：‘那你们尽管打开盒子吧。’
And I was like, well, feel free to open the boxes.
玩完了就放回去就行。
Just put them back in when you're done.
你知道的。
You know?
这根本不会有任何影响。
It's it's it's not gonna change anything whatsoever.
哦，好吧。
Like, oh, okay.
太好了。
Great.
然后他们就去做了自己想做的事，玩得很开心。
And then off they went and did whatever they wanted to do and had fun with it.
所以祝他们玩得开心。
So power to them.
说得有道理。
Fair enough.
我说我不同意这一点。
I'm gonna say I don't agree with that.
我的意思是，也许我到30岁的时候会这么想，但现在我正玩得不亦乐乎，不管是负三还是啥的。
I mean, maybe I'll feel that way once I get to 30, but I'm having plenty of fun at negative three or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
我第一次和别人玩的时候，通常都会退出。
First time I ever play it with people, I usually pop out.
我不记得到底是六、七还是八，那个只是基础玩法。
I don't remember which one is, six, seven, or eight where it's just sort of the basic game.
对。
And Yep.
然后玩得开心点。
And have fun with it.
天啊，没有什么比挑中那根红电线更糟的了。
And, man, there's nothing worse than picking that red wire.
你感觉到了‘哎呀’。
You feel like Uh-oh.
幸运的是，我们仍然避开了所有红色电线，因为我们还处于早期阶段，已经学会了如何避免这个错误。
Luckily, we we are still we have still avoided all red wires because we're early enough in it to have figured out how to avoid that mistake.
我们随时都可能遇到危险，之前确实遇到过一次五五开的情况。
We're waiting at any moment, and we did have one situation where it was a fifty fifty.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们当时有一个工具，让我可以对大家说：嘿，各位。
And we had one of the tools that we were given allowed me to say, hey, everybody.
不如我们停下来，用这个工具吧，我打赌我们能化解这个五五开的局面。
How about we stop and let let us use this tool, and I bet we can destroy the fifty fifty.
我们这么做了，效果太棒了。
And we did, and it was awesome.
但在我们前几局游戏中，甚至有过这样的时刻：计时器几乎就要爆炸了，我们还不确定红色线在哪，但正是这种紧张感，游戏想带给我们的那种时刻，它确实给了我们。
But we've even had, like, moments in our first couple games where it was, you know, the the ticker was almost about to explode, and we didn't quite know where the red so it even gave you kind of the moment it wants to give you, it gave us.
是的。
Yes.
这太酷了。
Which was super cool.
太棒了。
That is awesome.
对。
Yep.
好吧，我还有一个游戏，之后就让你自己玩了。
Well, I have one more game, then I'll let you just run with it.
我不知道你以前有没有玩过这个游戏，它叫《票务之旅》。
I don't know if you've heard this game before, but it's called Ticket to Ride.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know what?
我算是有点印象。
I am I am vaguely familiar.
我女儿这周过生日，所以我们开车过去，她说，哦，带些游戏来吧。
So my daughter's birthday was this week, and so we drove down and she's like, oh, some bring some games.
你为什么不带《车票之旅》来呢？
Why don't you bring Ticket to Ride?
我们有一阵子没玩那个了。
We haven't played that in a while.
我当时就想，是的。
I'm like, yeah.
当然。
Sure.
于是我就拿起了《车票之旅》，然后我注意到我拿到的是瑞士和印度地图。
So I grabbed Ticket to Ride, and I noticed that I had the Switzerland and India map.
我当时就在想，你知道吗，我不确定我有没有玩过这个。
And I was like, you know, I don't know if I've ever played this.
所以我也把它带上了。
So I grabbed that as well.
于是我们到了那里，五个人一起，拿出瑞士地图，开始玩游戏，玩得非常开心。
And so we got out there and and, five players, we whip out the the Switzerland map and and start playing the game and had a great time.
但游戏进行到大约一半时，我看了看规则，才意识到瑞士地图是为两到三名玩家设计的，最多可能容纳四名。
But about a about halfway through the game, I was looking at the rules, and I realized Switzerland map is designed for two to three players, maybe four at best.
我当时就想，哦，我觉得这可能会出问题。
And I was like, oh, I think this is going to break.
而且，你永远不可能派出足够的火车来正式结束游戏，因为地图稍微小了点。
And, like, you would never get enough trains out to technically end the game because the map is a little bit smaller.
所以我们按时结束了游戏，然后继续玩，仍然度过了非常愉快的时光，玩得很开心。
So we ended it on time instead and then kind of played and still had an amazing time and had fun with it.
然后我和我妻子尝试了印度地图，它也是为两到四名玩家设计的。
And so then my wife and I tried the India map, which is also designed for two to four players.
我跟你说，你谈到认知负荷。
And I tell you, you talk you talk about cognitive load.
你忘了当你对美国了如指掌时，找东西有多容易。
You you forget how easy it is to find stuff when you know The United States like the back of your hand.
是的。
Yep.
但当你突然要找印度或甚至瑞士的地点时，就会开始想：它到底在哪儿？该怎么到达？等等。
And then when suddenly you're trying to find something in India or even Switzerland for that matter, you're kinda like, where is it now, and how do I get it and stuff.
不过这会拖慢你的节奏。
So slows you down, though.
但我认为这依然是一款非常棒的游戏。
But I think it's it's still just an amazing game.
当然了。
Oh, definitely.
我还想补充一个额外的小贴士，就是由Marmalade Game Studios推出的最新电子游戏版本，嗯。
And I'm gonna get I'm gonna piggyback with one extra tip, which is the most recent sort of video game version by Marmalade Game Studios Mhmm.
非常出色。
Is amazing.
它让你能做到我希望所有电子游戏、所有登陆Switch平台的桌游都能设法实现的功能，那就是电视可以充当棋盘，而我可以用手机来玩。
It lets you do the thing that I wish every video game everything that's on the Switch that's a board game should find some way to do this, which is the TV can be the board, and I can play from my phone.
哦，不错。
Oh, nice.
是的。
Yes.
它让你能实现类似Jackbox那种玩法，你知道，就像当我和Rocky一起玩的时候，她可以舒舒服服地坐在沙发上。
It lets you do the jackbox thing where, you know, like, when Rocky and I are playing, she can kinda sit on the couch.
我可以坐在座位上，我们俩都能看着主屏幕玩游戏，用手机查看我们的卡牌和车票在哪里。
I can sit in the seat, and we both can play the game with us looking at the main screen and playing off of our phones where our cards are and where our tickets are.
这真是太棒了。
And that is just wonderful.
它也非常适合学习，比如那个曼陀罗图，你会想，嗯，我其实没怎么接触过印度。
It's also really good for learning, like, the mandala where you're like, well, I haven't really dealt with India.
让我看看是怎么回事。
Let me see what the deal is.
或者他们称之为德国。
Or I think they call it Germany.
我想印刷时可能是马克林公司。
I think it may have been Marklin when it was printed.
我不知道德国是否再次作为《票务乘车》的地图出现过，但有一个版本是寻找乘客并送他们去各地，还有一个是旧金山版，你需要四处收集纪念品。
I don't know if Germany has existed again as a ticket to ride map, but it's one where it's find passengers and take them places, or it's got San Francisco where you have to go around and collect souvenirs.
所以这是一种有趣的方式，可以尝试那些你可能没有的版本。
So it's a fun way to kinda try those versions you may not own.
明显缺少英国和宾夕法尼亚版。
It is notably missing UK and Pennsylvania.
他们决定不浪费时间在那些失败的发明或股票市场游戏上，但包含了《票务乘车》的几乎所有其他版本，包括我认为一两个仅限于电子游戏的专属版本。
They decide not to waste their time with the broken inventions or the stock market game, but it's got pretty much every other version of ticket to ride, including, I think, one or two that are exclusive to the video game.
有意思。
Interesting.
是的。
Yeah.
我以前玩过旧版，里面有简·斯坦博特还有所有那些名字。
I had the older version with, like, Jane Stainbot and all the the names of them.
是的。
Yep.
我们经常玩那个版本。
And we played that a ton.
但当他们推出新应用时，我一直没转用新版，不过听起来很棒。
But when they made the new app, I had never switched over to the new one, but that sounds awesome.
我买了。
I I got it.
假期期间在Switch上打折，我就入手了。
It was on sale on Switch over the holidays.
我当时想，你知道吗？
And I was like, you know what?
我已经十五年没买过《票务之旅》的电子游戏了，但我还挺想坐下来玩一玩的。
I haven't bought a Ticket to Ride video game for, you know, fifteen years, and I wouldn't mind me able to sit here and play with it.
它到目前为止的表现远远超出了我的预期，因为当它介绍本地多人模式时，我还在想：它居然告诉我，我能用手机出牌。
And it so far outperformed what I expected it to be able to do because it was as it was explaining its couch multiplayer, I was looking at going, it's telling me I'm gonna be able to play these cards from my phone.
我甚至打算买下来，就为了吐槽这根本不是它的工作方式。
I'll buy it just so I can complain about how that's not really how it works.
结果它偏偏就是这么工作的。
And then it was exactly how it worked.
我想了想，
I was like, you know what?
好吧，Marmalade Game Studio，你们赢了。
You win, Marmalade Game Studio.
这次算你们赢了。
You win this time.
拿去吧，我的钱。
Take my money.
真是绝妙的实现。
Just a brilliant implementation.
太棒了。
Awesome.
好吧。
Alright.
那你有什么？
So what do you got
给我？
for me?
现在轮到我玩一款非常不符合我风格的游戏了。
It's time for me to move into the game that's very out of character for me.
我和一些朋友一起玩，他们特别喜欢叙事类游戏。
I play with some friends who just love narrative games so much.
他们希望听到一个故事，尤其是如果我们四个人必须一起合作的时候。
They want a story to be told, and they especially love a story if maybe, like, all four of us have to work together
好的。
Okay.
这通常不是我的风格，除了《炸弹破坏者》之外。
Which is normally not my scene outside of bombbusters.
我玩过一款叫《Unsettled》的游戏。
I played a game called unsettled.
好的。
Okay.
《Unsettled》来自Orange Nebula。
Unsettled is from Orange Nebula.
这是一款科幻游戏。
It is a sci fi game.
它的视觉设计绝对一流，我想说，在进入游戏领域之前，Orange Nebula 曾经为某种商业产品设计过东西，比如饮料，这好像是我隐约听说过的，但别太当真。
The the graphic design is absolutely top notch, which I wanna say Orange Nebula before they got into games, they designed some sort of commercial product for some reason, like beverages feels like the thing that I kinda remember hearing about, but don't hold me to that.
但我记得他们在进入游戏行业之前，有商业设计的背景。
But I remember that they had, like, a commercial design background before they got into the game space.
而《Unsettled》本质上是一款科幻游戏，你降落在一颗陌生星球上，并被赋予一系列任务，以设法离开星球或完成其他目标。
And unsettled is essentially a sci fi game where you have landed on a foreign planet, and you are given a group of things you have to do to get yourself off of the planet or accomplish whatever the goal is.
好的。
K.
听起来不错。
Sounds good.
游戏的配件非常棒。
The the pieces to the game are amazing.
它有一些小面板，你可以把东西放在上面。
It's got, like, little dashboards where you sit things.
它有不同的星球，所以每个星球的运作方式都会不同。
It has different planets, so every planet is gonna work in a different way.
所以如果你在玩，比如说，格洛尼克星，也许在格洛尼克星上，你需要竖起能量塔，然后启动这些能量塔来触发其他事件，从而让你的飞船起飞。
So if you're playing, you know, Gloernic, maybe on Gloernic, you have to put up pylons and then fire the pylons up to get something else to happen to get your ship off.
但如果你在莫斯菲利亚星，那里的苔藓正在过度生长，你必须摧毁这些过度生长的苔藓，最终才能让你的飞船重返平流层。
But if you're on Mosspheria, it is the moss is overgrowing, and you have to destroy the overgrowing moss to get your ship eventually back into the stratosphere.
很酷。
Cool.
我们来看看这里。
So let's see here.
我玩得挺开心的，因为我想说，我觉得自己在这档节目里，甚至在现实生活中，都因为我不喜欢奇幻题材而被贴上了不喜欢科幻的标签。
I enjoyed what I played because I wanna say I I get a terrible reputation, I think, on this show and also in my real life that because I don't like fantasy that I don't like sci fi.
但我其实很喜欢科幻。
And I do enjoy sci fi.
我只是不喜欢《星球大战》。
I just don't like Star Wars.
我喜欢《星际迷航》。
Star Trek, I like.
如果你看一些不那么严肃的科幻作品，比如《火星人玩转地球》和《银河系漫游指南》，我就超爱科幻。
And if you get into, like, not real sci fi, like Mars Attacks and Galaxy Quest, I love sci fi.
这个游戏非常严肃，但它相当不错地呈现了这样一个故事：我们必须四处奔走、完成任务、找出解决办法、避开会给我们带来麻烦的问题，然后我们的机器人朋友能帮上忙，最后我们赶紧把事情搞定。
This game takes itself very seriously, but it does a pretty good job of giving you that story of we've gotta run around and do the thing and figure it out and avoid the problems that are gonna get us, and then our robot friend can help us, and we let's rush stuff over.
我只玩了一个星球。
In the one I only played one planet.
我只玩过一次。
I've played one time.
我们没能成功离开那个星球。
We didn't successfully get off the planet.
对我来说，像这样的游戏，你最后总会遇到一大堆必须完成的事情。
The problem for me was in in some of these games like this, you end up with, like, multiple things you have to do.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
所以对我来说，当卡片上写着‘建立高塔’时，我希望这就是整个游戏的全部内容。
So for me, when the card says, like, establish the pylons, I want that to be the whole game.
我们建好了想要的高塔，但他们却说：不行。
We established the pylons we want, and they're like, no.
但接着你又得给它们供电。
But then you have to power them.
然后你就想：可是我已经建好了啊。
And you're like, but I established them.
我们在做什么？
What are we doing?
我们花了整整一小时二十分钟才建立好 pylons。
It took us an hour and twenty minutes to establish the pylons.
它们就不能直接通电吗？
Can they not just be powered?
我们不是在太空中吗？
Did we not we're in space.
我们真有必要遵守这些限制吗？
Do we need to hold ourselves to these sort of restrictions?
对我来说，问题就出在这里。
And for me, that was kinda where the problem came.
如果你们对玩一款深空生存游戏感兴趣——和你的船员一起远程努力逃离星球，我觉得你们一定会喜欢这个游戏。
I will say if the idea of playing like a deep space survival game where you're working with your crew to get off the planet remotely sounds interesting to you, I think you're really gonna like this.
我也觉得这很有趣。
I also think it was interesting.
我跟那些玩这款游戏的玩家聊过，他们拥有这款游戏，他们说：‘哦，不。’
I was talking to the the folks that I play with that owned the game, and they're like, oh, no.
我们玩了这个苔藓星球，体验完全不同。
We played this moss planet, and it played way different.
所以我觉得它做到了很多叙事游戏都会做的事——根据你的行为很好地调整自身体验。
So I think it does that thing that a lot of narrative games do, which is it does a very good job of varying itself based on what you're doing.
而且，这些元素设计得非常好。
Also, the pieces are great.
它的视觉效果也很棒。
The look of it is great.
我会再玩一次，我觉得这对这样的游戏来说已经说明了很多。
I would play it again, which I think says a lot for a game like this
对。
Right.
对我来说。
For me.
但美术风格很好。
But the art is good.
你做的事情很有趣。
The stuff you do is fun.
我知道至少在这个游戏中，我再次只玩过一次。
I know at least in this game, once again, I've only played it once.
即使输了，我也觉得在大多数回合中我都能影响结果。
I felt like I could affect the outcome in most of my turns even losing.
它感觉不像《鬼故事》这样的游戏。
It didn't feel like a game like ghost stories.
我一直以来对《鬼故事》的玩笑是，如果我直接给你一对骰子，告诉你必须连续掷出七次双六否则你就输，这个游戏反而会更容易。
My joke has always been about ghost stories is that that game would be easier if I just handed you a pair of dice and told you you have to roll boxcars seven times in a row or you lose.
在《鬼故事》中，总有一些地方让我看到它的‘双六’本质，对吧。
And there's something up to me in ghost stories where I see the boxcars of it all Right.
每次我玩的时候都是这样。
Every time I play.
我从不觉得任何策略真的能起到作用。
I never feel like any amount of strategy is really helping.
这只是一次又一次的尝试。
It's just the the the goes one time.
哦，这次你还能掷出11点。
Oh, this time you can also roll an 11.
对我来说，这感觉从来没什么不同。
And it never feels any different than that to me.
这款游戏让我感觉我的很多决策都至关重要，虽然可能有点运气成分，但如果我们当时能更熟练一些，或者没有遭遇那么多次不幸，我们或许就有机会赢。
This, I feel like a lot of my decisions mattered, that although it may have been a little lucky, if we had been a little more skillful or we had not gotten unlucky as many times, we might have had a chance.
是的，所有这些感觉都恰到好处。
Like, all of that felt right to me.
它的故事线感觉很合理，我没有被游戏戏耍的感觉。
The story of it felt correct, and I didn't feel robbed by the game.
我们只是恰好没有赢而已。
We just happened to not win.
而且，这其中有些东西我真的很喜欢。
And I there's something about that I really like.
所以我必须说，我很享受玩《Unsettled》的时光。
So I have to say I enjoyed my time with unsettled.
我相信将来某个时候我会尝试另一个星球，等我有了新的体验后，可能会回来再聊聊它。
I'm sure at some point I'll try another planet, and I may come back and talk about it again when I've had another experience with it.
不过它的外观看起来超级酷。
But it's super cool looking.
这些棋子真的很棒。
The pieces are really good.
盒子设计很有趣。
The box design's fun.
收纳方式，它如何放入
The organization, how it fits in the
盒子里很棒，如果你是那种
box is great if that's the kind
你喜歡的那種類型。
of thing that you like.
我超愛這個。
I love that.
但，是的，總的來說，我覺得我還不至於給完全讚好，但在板遊迷網站上給了8.1分，我能理解為什麼會這樣評分。
But, yeah, generally, I think I don't wanna go all the way to thumbs up, but I'm it's an 8.1 on board game geek, and I understand how it got there.
有道理。
Makes sense.
那我問你個問題。
So let me ask you this.
把你在這款遊戲中的樂趣，和《詭屋背叛》之類的遊戲比較一下。
Compare and contrast your the enjoyment in that versus something like betrayal at house on the hill.
我知道這遊戲有叛徒元素，但先忽略那部分。
I realize there's a traitor aspect, but but ignore that piece.
對我來說，這突然就變成了一個主題層面的問題。
So so for me, this all of a sudden comes down to thematic things.
对。
Right.
我喜欢恐怖和悬疑电影。
I love horror and suspense movies.
我喜欢老式的城堡电影，你知道的，那个叮当响的和蜡像馆。
I love the old castle movies, you know, the tinkler and the health of wax.
所以对我来说，这突然变成了主题性的问题，因为这些主题对我冲击很大，我会想，哦，接下来大概要出现黏液怪了。
And so for me, and this is how thematic games work, because those themes hit me so hard, because I can go, oh, I think this is about to be the blob.
我们得面对黏液怪了。
We're gonna have to face the blob.
大家准备好了。
Get ready, everybody.
黏液怪要来了。
The blob's coming.
这让我感觉好多了，远胜过这里的情况，因为我想我更喜欢《背叛》这部电影，而不是《不安》。
That feels real good to me far more than this does here because I guess I I like the movie of betrayal more than I like the movie of unsettled.
话虽如此，但《不安》显然更像一个正经的游戏。
That having been said, unsettled is capital letters significantly more an actual game.
对。
Right.
《不安》绝对是一款游戏。
Unsettled is definitely a game.
《背叛》几乎像一款角色扮演游戏。
Betrayal is almost an RPG.
作为一个非常喜欢它的人，我可以告诉你，你可以在玩《不安》时在意输赢。
And I would say, like, even as a person that loves it, I can tell you, you can care about winning and play unsettled.
如果你玩《背叛》时还在意输赢，那里面什么也给不了你。
If you go into betrayal and you care about winning, there is nothing for you there.
你只会让自己沮丧。
You're only gonna upset yourself.
明白了。
Got it.
好的。
Alright.
这正是我预期的，但我认为这是个不错的方式。
That that was what I was expecting, but I thought that was a good way to go.
你还有另一个要给我吗？
You got one more for me?
我还有一个特别想聊的。
I've got one more I really wanna talk about.
在PAX Unplugged上，我有一些朋友在Allplay展台工作。
So at PAX Unplugged, I have some friends that worked at the Allplay booth.
我看到一个小游戏，就问他们：这游戏怎么样？
And I saw a little game, and I said, how is that?
他们说：每个人都喜欢它。
And they went, oh, everyone loves it.
每个人都喜欢它。
Everyone loves it.
我们几乎卖光了。
We're almost completely sold out.
你最好赶紧买一个。
You should probably get it.
你可能会喜欢它。
You'll probably like it.
我什么都没听，直接买下了。
I listened to no more and picked it up.
这是一款叫 Lure 的游戏，拼写是 L-U-R-E。
It's a game called lure, l u r e.
这是一款钓鱼游戏，埃里克。
It's a fishing game, Eric.
天哪。
Oh, boy.
我们开始了。
Here we go.
所以，
So,
本质上，它的运作方式是这样的。
essentially, it works like this.
你会得到一堆骰子，我有游戏本体和一个大型扩展包。
You're given a bunch of dice, and I have the game and the one big expansion.
我觉得还有一些小型扩展，但有一个是增加更多骰子的。
I think there are some smaller expansions, but there's one that adds more dice.
基本上，你会得到五个六面骰和一些奇怪的骰子。
And, essentially, you're given five d sixes and some freaky dice.
我的意思是，它们是多面骰。
And by what I mean is that are a polyhedral dice.
二十面、十二面。
D twenty nineteen twelve.
骰子效果更好，因为它们的功能用途不同。
Dice works out better because they are used functionally differently.
明白了。
Gotcha.
所以，每回合都会放出一些鱼，而这些鱼有特定的要求。
So essentially, every turn, fish are put out and the fish have requirements.
嘿。
Hey.
你必须掷出超过两个。
You've gotta roll more than two.
嘿。
Hey.
你必须掷出超过十八。
You've gotta roll more than 18.
嘿。
Hey.
你必须确保你的其中一个骰子是四。
You have to make sure that one of your dice is a four.
嘿。
Hey.
你的两颗骰子不能相同。
No two of your dice can match.
嘿。
Hey.
你的两颗骰子必须相同。
Two of your dice have to match.
它们都有要求。
They all have requirements.
然后你和你的骰子池——五个六面骰和三个特殊骰子——一起抽出你想要的骰子，所有人同时进行，接着进行施法。
And then you and your pool of dice, which is five d sixes and three freaky dice, is you pull out what you want and everyone does it at the same time, and then you cast.
当你施法时，所有人同时展示你抽出了多少颗骰子。
And when you cast, you all reveal how many dice you pulled.
抽出最少骰子的人先掷骰，抢取桌上的资源，然后依次轮到抽出最多骰子的人。
Whoever cast the fewest dice gets to roll first to grab what they can on the table, and then it moves up to whoever did the most.
好的。
K.
这样一来，你就开始钓鱼了。
With that, you pull fish in.
有些鱼，就像我说的，有特定要求，比如必须使用诱饵或者不能用。
Some fish, like I said, have requirements where you have to use a lure or not.
有诱饵标记。
There are lure tokens.
你一开始有一个。
You start with one.
它们会做一些事情，比如直接给你一个六点。
They will do things like they just hand you a six.
这个诱饵标记就是一个六点。
This lure token is a six.
或者有时候，当你钓到一条鱼后夸耀一下，就能获得额外分数，或者可以向上或向下调整一点。
Or sometimes you'll brag once you've caught a fish and you get more points, or you can go up a pip or down a pip.
有点像基础的骰子游戏机制。
Kinda basic dice game stuff.
对。
Right.
而且规则非常简单，但骰子竞标时，每当你使用一个奇特骰子，它就会在下一轮无法使用。
And it is very simple, but with the bidding of the dice oh, and anytime you use a freaky deaky die, it doesn't come back for a turn.
如果是你的三个多面体骰子之一，它会暂时放到一旁，隔一轮后才会回来。
If it's one of your three polyhedrals, it goes off to the side for a round and then returns the round after.
你的六面骰可以每次都能重新使用。
Your d sixes can fire back every time.
因为投出最少骰子数的玩家可以优先抓鱼，这正是解答了每个人疑问的关键：如果我有五个骰子，每轮都能收回，
And because the lowest number of dice cast gets to grab fish first, that is the thing that answers the question everyone has, which is if I have five dice, I get back every turn.
那我为什么不每次都投五个骰子呢？
Why don't I cast five dice?
对。
Right.
这是因为有时候棋盘上会写，获得一条四点及以上的鱼可得六分。
And it's because sometimes in the the board will say, you get six points for a fish that's four plus.
于是你会想，那我就扔一个骰子吧。
And you'll go, well, then I'll throw one die.
希望我能掷出较高的点数，赶在别人行动之前把鱼收进我的船里，让其他人去争夺高分的鱼。
Hope I get the higher half of it and get it get it into my boat before anybody does anything and let everybody else fight for the high fish.
这正是这个游戏里你可以做的事情。
And that is a thing that you can do in this game.
这只是一个精彩而快速的骰子游戏。
It's just a brilliant little quick dice game.
在我看来，它比像‘鸡仔骰子’或‘火星骰子’，或者你平时拿出来不想动脑时玩的任何骰子游戏，都要更烧脑一点。
To me, it sits as a thinkier version of something like chicken or martian dice or whatever your, like, diced zombie dice, whatever your, like, dice game is you pull out when you don't really wanna think.
它只是比那些游戏多走了一步，但又不至于变成角色扮演，我觉得这太棒了。
This is just one step past it without being a role in right, and I think it is brilliant.
我给每个人看过的人都很喜欢这个游戏。
Everyone I've shown it to has enjoyed it.
它一直留在我的包里，就是那种我们本来以为要结束了，但还想再玩一局的时候，完美适合这种情况。
It literally stays in my bag as the, you know, we can play one more game, but I think we're we're starting to get tired, and it fits perfectly for that.
这太棒了。
That is awesome.
那这个游戏要玩多久？
So how long does the game take?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得最多十五到二十分钟，如果刻意拖慢的话，最多二十分钟。
I would say maybe fifteen, twenty minutes tops, twenty minutes if you're really stretching it out.
你可能还能更快，但我觉得没必要那么快。
You could probably go faster, but I don't think you'd want to.
没错。
Right.
但这个游戏大约十五分钟，你知道的，因为开局会拿掉不少卡牌，所以会有足够多的回合。
But it's about a fifteen minute game, you know, with enough rounds because you take a bunch of cards out to start and stuff.
所以，没错，这是一款很棒的、扎实的十五分钟游戏。
So but, yeah, it's a good solid quick fifteen minute game.
抽到你需要的牌时的那种运气很有趣。
The the luck of the draw of the things you need to pull is fun.
掷骰子竞标这个机制很有趣，带点小刺激。
The dice bidding is an entertaining thing that had just a little bit of sauce to it.
我真心推荐。
I really thumbs up for me.
我玩过上帝。
I've played god.
这可能是我今年到目前为止玩得最多的游戏了，尽管今年才刚开始不久。
Probably, this is probably my most played game of the year so far, although we are very early into the year.
但这是一款很棒的游戏，我会随身带着到处展示给大家。
But a great game I kinda bring everywhere to show everybody.
太棒了。
Well, awesome.
听起来很棒。
That sounds awesome.
在我们正式开始之前，你还有什么想聊的吗？
Do you have anything else you wanna talk about before we dive in?
我觉得这些已经说完了。
I think that'll cover it.
我也说了不少，谈了很多我玩过的新游戏，所以我会留一些内容给未来的节目。
I've too I've gotten to speak a lot and talk about a lot of new games I've played, so I'll save some stuff for future episodes.
所以这些就是我特别想聊的内容了。
So that covers the stuff I really was raring to get to.
那听起来不错。
Sounds good then.
好吧，尽管玩得很开心，但我们还是先短暂休息一下，然后回来继续享受更多乐趣。
Well, let's take a quick break as much fun as I've been having, and then we'll come back and have more fun.
嘿。
Hey.
我是埃里克。
This is Eric.
我只是想告诉大家，自2020年以来，我们一直使用Zencastr进行所有录音，这对我们帮助巨大，因为它不仅提供了一个基础网站，让大家可以像使用Zoom或Teams那样相互连接和沟通，还能将所有内容以独立音轨录制，这在后期编辑时至关重要。
I just wanted to let you guys know that since 2020, we've been using Zencastr to do all of our recording, which has been a huge help to us because what it allows you to do is have your basic website where you can connect with one another and communicate with one another, you know, like your Zooms and your Teams, but it also records everything in a separate track, which is critical when editing time comes around.
所以，嘿，我鼓励大家。
So, hey, I encourage you.
去试试Zencastr吧，网址是zencastr.com。
Check out Zencastr, zencastr.com.
谢谢。
Thanks.
我们回来了。
And we're back.
我依然是埃里克。
I'm still Eric.
他依然是布鲁斯。
He's still Bruce.
所以，布鲁斯。
So Bruce.
我还是布鲁斯。
I'm still Bruce.
是的。
Yeah.
Dictionary.com 将‘fun’定义为‘Yes’。
Dictionary.com defines fun Yes.
意思是‘好吧’。
As Okay.
提供欢乐或娱乐的事物。
Something that provides mirth or amusement.
可以说，这正是我们玩游戏的原因。
And arguably, that is why we're playing games.
可能还有其他原因。
There there may be other reasons.
我需要成功带来的自我满足，或者我需要，你知道的，诸如此类的东西。
I need the self satisfaction of succeeding or I need to, you know, whatnot.
但总的来说，你玩游戏是因为它们有趣。
But in general, you're playing games because they are fun.
是的。
Yes.
这就引出了两个问题。
So that brings up two questions.
我们已经将其定义为能带来欢乐或娱乐的事物。
We've already defined it as something that provides mirth or amusement.
但游戏是如何提供乐趣的呢？
But how does the game how does the game provide the fun?
然后，我们如何利用这些信息来更享受游戏，或者在设计/玩游戏中获得更多的乐趣？
And then what is it that that we can actually use that information for to enjoy our games more or have more fun designing slash playing games?
所以，这就是我们今天要讨论的主要话题。
So that's the the big the big topic here.
如果能客观地说出X有趣而Y不有趣，那该多好。
And it would be lovely to be able to say objectively, x is fun and y is not fun.
但当然，人是非常复杂的。
But, of course, people are insanely complex.
大脑极其复杂。
Brains are incredibly complex.
一个人觉得有趣的事情，比如进入地牢并遇到龙，其他人可能并不觉得有趣。
And what one person finds fun, say, going into a dungeon and meeting a dragon, other people might not find fun.
确实如此。
Indeed.
但我们能达成一个普遍共识。
But we can come to a general consensus.
对吧？
Right?
你知道的？
You know?
那么，我们来聊聊究竟哪些方面能让一款游戏变得有趣。
So with that, let's kind of talk about what are the aspects that actually make a game fun.
我能先让车开下悬崖一会儿吗？
Am I allowed to drive the car off the cliff for a second?
当然可以。
Sure.
在我们深入讨论所有这些之前，我想先进行一次讨论。
I would like to have one discussion before we even get into all of this.
并非所有游戏都旨在追求乐趣，乐趣也并非每款游戏的必备目标。
Not all games are fun, and fun does not have to be the goal of every game.
确实如此。
True.
我认为有时明确表态很重要：这款游戏可能并不有趣，但你值得一试。
I think it is super important at times to say, this game is not fun, but you need to try it.
我认为，就像所有艺术形式一样，嗯。
I I think as with all art Mhmm.
不是所有的艺术都有趣，但这并不意味着它没有价值。
Not all art is fun, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have value.
因此，从现在开始，当我批评那些不有趣的东西时，请理解在这一切背后，我确实明白这是一种艺术形式，而艺术形式中的每一件作品并不一定在任何人眼中都是有趣的。
So from this point further, when I bash things that are not fun, understand that deep under all of it, I do understand that this is an art form, and not every single thing in the art form is fun in anyone's distinction.
而这并不意味着它没有价值，但今天我们讨论的是趣味性。
And then that that does not mean it is without value, but we're gonna be talking about fun today.
同意。
Agreed.
对。
Yeah.
所以这很难，因为趣味性包含太多不同的含义。
So I it's so hard because fun is so many different things.
对吧？
Right?
而且对不同的人来说，趣味性也有着太多不同的含义。
And it's so many different things for so many different people.
所以我认为最重要的事情，你已经提到过，就是如何用语言描述一款游戏，从而让一个人判断它是否有趣。
So I think the most important thing, which you've touched on, is the language of how you describe a game to then let a person decide if they think it's fun.
对。
Right.
如果我们暂时跳开话题，谈谈建筑，比如你看喜剧片，滑稽喜剧会告诉你一些关于它的信息，这些信息你可能喜欢，也可能不喜欢。
If we can if we can dance about architecture for just a second, if you look at something like comedies, right, slapstick comedy tells you something about it that you may or may not like.
是的。
Yes.
它是一部喜剧，这表明在设计时，它的目标很可能是为了带来乐趣。
That it is comedy tells you that its goal when being designed was likely to be fun.
除了像讽刺到底意味着什么这样的更大范畴的问题。
Beyond the bigger of like, what does satire mean?
但本质上，如果你创作了一部喜剧，你就试图最大化它的趣味性，但我可能讨厌滑稽搞笑。
But essentially, if you've built a comedy, you've tried to maximize fun, but that I may hate slapstick.
但这没关系，因为这对我来说不会有趣。
And it doesn't matter because that's not gonna be fun to me.
你知道吧？
You know?
粗俗的成人喜剧并不会吸引所有人。
A gross out adult comedy is not going to appeal to everyone.
我认为在游戏领域，了解这些很重要，比如说明游戏非常依赖运气
And I think in the gaming space to know those things, to say things like the game is very luck based
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
这非常重要，因为一个游戏可以很有趣，但并不依赖运气。
Is super important because a game can be fun and not luck based.
我个人认为不依赖运气的设计更难，但这是因为我喜欢依赖运气的游戏。
I personally think that's more difficult, but it's because I like luck based games.
但我认为这些点非常值得讨论。
But I think those things are super important to talk about.
你提到背叛这一点，我觉得非常好。
I think you made a great point in bringing up betrayal.
《背叛》是一款在特定心理和情感条件下玩起来会很有趣的桌游。
Betrayal is a game that can be fun if you come in mentally and emotionally under certain conditions.
没错。
Right.
但这些条件并不一定是游戏通常所处的环境。
And they're not necessarily the conditions that games exist under.
所以现在我要把话题抛回给你，因为我觉得我已经提出了一些观点。
So then I'm I'm gonna throw back to you because I think I've at least put some ideas out here.
是的。
Yes.
在这一领域中，你认为什么是重要的？
What are you seeing in the space that you think is important?
第一点，你提到过，我也提到过，我认为游戏中运气成分的多少非常重要，因为人们可能喜欢或不喜欢这一点。
The first one, and you mentioned it and I mentioned it, is I think how much luck a game has is super important because people can like or not like that.
正如我每次在这里讨论时都会提到的，游戏的主题也极其重要。
The theme of a game as I manage to take care of every time I'm here talking is super important.
还有其他哪些游戏方面的因素，你认为对人们的潜在乐趣很重要吗？
Are there other sort of aspects of a game that you think are important in potential fun for someone?
当然。
Absolutely.
我脑子里一直在想的是，比如乔这个游戏设计师向一家公司推销一款游戏，他们玩了之后，发现游戏功能正常。
And and what I'm really thinking about in the back of my mind is, you know, Joe Game Designer is pitching a game to a company, and they play it, and it's functional.
老实说，他们脱口而出的是：还不错。
And, honestly, the the word that comes out is it's fine.
对吧？
Right?
意思是，游戏确实完成了它设定的目标，但缺少那种火花。
Like, the game does what it sets out to do, but there's not that spark.
缺少那种让游戏真正令人兴奋的乐趣。
There's not that fun excitement that the game kind of brings.
所以，这种感觉到底是什么呢？
And so that's kind of what's what is that?
而且说实话，每一种艺术形式都有这种情况。
And and honestly, every art form has that.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，那些在酒吧里演出的乐队，A&R人员会说：嗯，他们还没达到那个水准。
You know, you got those bands that are are playing in the bars and the and the A and R guy is kind of like, well, you know, they're not there yet.
要真正超越平庸，可能需要某些东西发生，这是最贴切的说法了。
There's something that needs to happen for them to really transcend mediocrity is probably the best way to put it.
所以我认为，从游戏的角度来看，这被委婉地称为‘有趣’。
And so I think games wise, it's charitably described as fun.
我的意思是，你看看像《高级步兵指挥》这样的游戏。
I mean, you look at something like advanced squad leader.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yep.
一款我喜欢的游戏。
A game that I enjoy.
我玩得很开心，但我能轻易理解为什么很多人会说它一点都不好玩。
I have fun playing, but I can easily see the argument why so many people would say it is not fun at all.
因为规则手册的厚度，对于还记得这些东西的人来说，就像旧电话簿、旧黄页那么厚。
Because the rule book is the size of, for those of you who remember these things, old phone books, old yellow pages.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，它有一大本活页夹，里面全是这些小部件。
I mean, it's a giant binder, and there's all these little, kind of pieces to it.
但掌握那种复杂性，比如，本身就是乐趣的一部分，看着所有部件协同运作，让那些齿轮按你想要的方式转动，对于那款特定的游戏来说，就是乐趣所在。
But some of that mastering that complexity, for instance, is a bit of the fun, is the kind of seeing all the pieces move together and making those wheels work the way you want them to is, for that particular game, part of the fun.
好的。
Okay.
但我认为，总体而言，你是在浏览大量游戏，或者在游戏商店里挑选时，主题会为你设定基本预期。
But I think predominantly, in general, you're looking at the big library of games or you're at your game store trying to pick The theme is going to to establish your baselines.
对吧？
Right?
所以你会看到一个吸引你注意的主题。
So you see a theme that looks that that kind of grabs your attention.
然后你就根据这个主题产生了预期。
And then now you have expectations based on the theme.
我们以游戏《Rock Hard 1977》为例。
Let's take the move the game Rock Hard 1977.
好的。
Okay.
对吧？
Right?
我看到这个，心里就想：好吧。
I see this and I'm like, alright.
我要尝试成为1977年的摇滚明星。
I am going to try and be a rock star in 1977.
这就是我仅仅看着盒子或标题时，游戏给我设定的预期。
Now that's what the game is pitched to me just looking at the box or looking at the title.
现在就看游戏能否满足这种有趣的期待了。
Now it's up to me to to the game to fulfill that fun expectation.
而游戏是否做到这一点，可能甚至不是游戏本身的错。
And whether or not the game does it may not even be the game's fault.
我可能带着错误的预期而来。
It could've I could've come in with faulty expectations.
你明白吗？
You know?
比如，我想管理一支1977年的乐队。
Like, I wanna manage a band in 1977.
不。
No.
这并不是那种类型的游戏。
This is not that game kind of thing.
所以这会在某种程度上扭曲了乐趣。
And so that would sort of end up skewing fun.
所以我感觉我绕了一个大圈，但我确实认为主题与此有很大关系。
So I really feel like I've talked at a giant circle, but I definitely think theme has a lot to do with it.
确实如此。
Definitely.
而且由于这个词在现代的用法，它并不是一个很好的词。
And I'm gonna I because of the modern use of the word, it's not a great word.
人们并不喜欢它，但我还是要用它，那就是参与感。
People don't love it, but I'm gonna use it anyway, which is engagement.
嗯。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
所以让小队指挥官和咔嗒伐木工平等的是参与感。
So the thing that makes squad leader and click clack lumberjack equal is engagement.
对吧？
Right?
它们以不同的方式引发参与。
And they engage in different ways.
如果你看到一本像电话簿一样厚的规则书，然后说，哦，好。
If you see a rule book the size of a phone book and you go, oh, yeah.
你已经在心里说，我准备好投入其中了。
You are already saying, I'm ready to get engaged.
如果你看到桌上有一棵微型树，有人拿着一把小小的塑料斧头，然后你想，哦，他们到底在干什么？
If you see a miniature tree on a table and someone holding a tiny little plastic axe and you go, oh, I must see what they're doing.
这关乎参与感。
It is about engagement.
我认为这是最重要的事，其他所有东西都是实现它的工具。
I think that's the most important thing, and and everything else is a tool to do it.
Steam有帮助吗？
Does Steam help?
Steam的帮助非常大。
Steam helps a ton.
而且，我再次强调，我多次说过这一点。
And and once again, I've had game I've said this many times.
我公开表示过，我真的很、很、很、很不喜欢《阿卡姆 Horror》这款游戏。
I'm on record saying, really, really, really, really do not like the game Arkham Horror.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我百分之千确定，如果它叫《阿卡姆疯人院》而游戏内容完全一样，我会非常喜欢。
I am a thousand percent sure if it was called Arkham Asylum and was an identical game, I would love it.
加个蝙蝠侠，那就完美了。
Throw in a Batman, and you're good to go.
我百分之百讨厌这样。
I hate that 100%.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，如果是我在说，哦，那个穿黄衣服的人在某个地方表演，然后错过了卡托尼克什么的，我根本不在乎。
You know, if it's me going, oh, well, the man in yellow does a play somewhere and then miss Katonic something something, I don't care.
但如果小丑抓住了芭芭拉·戈登，我知道只要我能从小丑手里救出芭芭拉·戈登，我就能得到蝙蝠女，那我突然就在意了。
But if the Joker has grabbed Barbara Gordon, and I I know if I can just get Barbara Gordon from the Joker, I get Batgirl, suddenly I care.
而这仅仅是因为主题契合。
And it's just it's simply on theme.
我想说，对我来说，《雷霆之路》这款游戏在包装盒上就向你做出了承诺，这涉及到营销层面的讨论。
I would say, like, Thunder Road to me is a game that it gives you a promise on the box to talk about kind of the marketing aspect.
没错。
Right.
它向你许下承诺，然后绝对兑现了这个承诺。
It makes a promise to you, and then it absolutely delivers it.
正因为它许下了承诺，而我也准备好投入其中，并且它兑现了承诺，所以我更加投入了。
And because it promises it and I was ready to engage and it delivers it, I'm more engaged.
对我来说，这很有趣。
And to me, that is fun.
然而，如果你是一个国际象棋冠军，你的乐趣来自于战胜对手，那么这个盒子里的东西对你来说毫无意义。
However, if you're a chess champion and where your fun comes from is in dominating an opponent, there's nothing in that box for you.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你并不想参与其中。
Because you don't want to engage with that.
当然。
Definitely.
还有另一个方面，要么游戏本身现在——我换一个角度说，不有趣。
And then there's the other aspect where either the game itself doesn't now I'm going on the other end, not fun.
游戏本身没有达到预期，或者出于某种原因，你想要做的事情却无法实现。
The game itself doesn't meet the expectation or for whatever reason, what you want to do, you can't do.
或者你尝试去做，却一再失败。
Or you try to do and fail repeatedly.
举个例子，我之前多次提到过《Viticulture》这款游戏。
And this is for an example, I I've talked about this multiple times, but Viticulture.
我不认为这个游戏本身有缺陷，但我几乎可以肯定，它永远无法让我实现自己在游戏中想做的事情。
I am not convinced that the game is broken, but I am convinced pretty much that it will never allow me to do what I think I need to do in that game.
这是一款酿酒厂主题的游戏。
So it's a it's a winery game.
你种植葡萄，然后把葡萄酿成葡萄酒。
You plant grapes, and then you turn those grapes into wine.
你知道，你可以种植两种不同类型的葡萄，然后随机抽取顾客来购买你的葡萄酒。
You know, there are diff two different types grapes that you can plant, and then you're randomly drawing customers to fill those wines.
每次我玩的时候，我都在努力搭建白葡萄酒的葡萄架之类的东西，但每次抽到的顾客全都是喜欢红葡萄酒的。
And every single time I've played, I've been building up the, let's say, a white wine, you know, trellis and whatnot, and every single person I've drawn is a red wine person.
所以，所有这些投入和需要多个阶段才能达成的努力，在我看来都白费了，说实话，一点都不有趣。
And so, know, you all the effort and stage and it takes multiple stages to get there is is kind of wasted effort to me, and it's honestly not fun.
好吧。
Okay.
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