OBG 584：小盒子大乐趣

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我正在想，你玩过《Tiny Epic Galaxies》吗？

Because I'm looking I'm thinking of have you ever played Tiny Epic Galaxies?

我没玩过，尽管听说这是最好的一款。

I have not, even though I heard it's the best one.

它可能是最好的一款。

It's it's probably the best one.

这取决于你想做什么。

It depends what you're looking to do.

但它确实非常有趣。

But it is it is pretty much fun.

你面前会随机出现一组行星，然后掷骰子、消耗资源，来征服这些行星获取分数，或者提升你的文明等等。

You have a random tableau of planets, and then you're rolling dice and spending resources to either conquer those planets and get some points or increase your civilization and and whatnot.

这本质上是一款被简化到核心要素的四X游戏，加入了掷骰子机制。

It's supposed to be kind of a four x game really distilled down to its base elements with a with dice rolling.

而且我非常喜欢它。

And and I love it.

玩起来非常有趣。

It's a lot of fun.

我老实说不会把它列在这份清单上，因为总体来说，它和别的游戏差不多。

I honestly wouldn't put it on this list because overall, it's the same thing.

行星会变化。

The planets change.

能力也会变化。

The powers change.

但总体而言，你的步骤和策略都相当固定。

But overall, your your steps, your strategies are pretty static.

但当你看看其他一些游戏时，比如——我也不想老拿Gamelin说事，但我们就拿《小小僵尸》举例吧。

But then when you look at some other games like well, let's just I I don't wanna keep picking on Gamelin, but let's take Tiny Epic Zombies for instance.

在这款游戏中，你可以构建许多不同的地图。

So in that game, there's lots of different maps that you can build.

你可以运行许多不同的场景。

There's lots of different scenarios that you can run.

因此，在重玩性方面有大量变化，每次游戏的内容都会不同，而不仅仅依赖于随机数生成器。

So there's a lot of, there's a lot of flexibility in the replay where things are gonna be different each time that you go beyond just sort of the the random number generator that comes up.

所以我认为，这正是我们开始满足这些标准的地方。

So I think that's really where we start to meet meet some of those criteria for this.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个系列中的《Tiny Epic Western》。

I like the tiny epic western of the series.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，这款游戏在玩家数量少的时候表现一般，但在玩家数量多的时候表现很好。

For me, that one, doesn't shine very well at low player counts, but does shine at the higher player counts.

这是一个小盒子，却包含了大量丰富的决策元素。

And it's a small box that packs a lot of different crunchy decisions into the process.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的观点。

That is a great point.

首先，它在多人游戏中表现得很好，而且拥有多种不同的机制。

First of all, it does handle multiple players well, and you've got a lot of different mechanics.

你有扑克机制。

You got the poker mechanic.

你有骰子机制。

You got the dice mechanic.

还有工人放置机制在其中发挥作用。

You've got the worker placement mechanic going on there.

所以，没错，让这个游戏成为小盒游戏的，仅仅是它那小巧的包装盒本身。

So, yeah, the only thing that makes that a small box game as it were is literally the small box that comes in.

对吧？

Right?

我同意。

I agree.

太好了。

Excellent.

那么，我们来谈谈为什么要这么做，之后再回过头来看看这能带来什么好处。

Well, let's talk about why you would do this, and then we'll kinda come back to what that gets you.

那么，为什么要专注于小盒游戏呢？

So why would you focus on a small box?

因为很明显，像《Tiny Epic Western》这样的游戏，你完全可以做成一个完整的大游戏，比如全尺寸棋盘之类的。

Because obviously, something like Tiny Epic Western, you could have built a full full game out of, you know, full board, all that kind of stuff.

当然。

Absolutely.

那么，你认为你创作这些看似大型游戏的小盒版本，背后有哪些理由呢？

So what do you think of what are some of your reasonings behind creating small boxes for for these arguably big games?

对我来说，我认为是便携性。

Well, for me, I think it's portability.

我认为不是每个人都想带着一大背包游戏去游戏之夜。

I think not everybody wants to take a gigantic backpack of games with them to game night.

对吧？

Right?

我知道我是一个经常旅行的人。

And I know I'm a person who travels a lot.

我在这方面非常幸运。

I'm very blessed that way.

但因为我经常旅行，很多时候我的游戏收藏并不在我身边。

But because I do travel, I don't have my game collection with me a lot of times.

但我非常想一直玩游戏，又不想仅仅通过数字方式来玩。

But yet I really want to play games constantly and I don't want to just go digital in order to play games.

所以，如果我出差旅行一两周，我希望至少能带几款令人满意的游戏体验同行，而我必须优先选择哪些游戏。

So for me, if I take a trip and I'm gone for a week or two weeks somewhere for business or whatever, I want to be able to take at least a few satisfying game experiences with me and I'm going to have to prioritize which ones those are going to be.

而且我知道很多人家里没有太多地方存放游戏。

Also I know a lot of people who don't have a lot of space in their house for games.

所以这必须是在保证游戏体验的前提下，最大化单位体积的价值。

So it has to be a maximizing of the value of the game experience for the size of the box you're doing.

因此，这就是我能想到的为什么小型盒装游戏可能很重要的两个原因。

So those are two things that I can think of why a small box game might be important.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

这就像是，我是想带Gloomhaven，还是带其他一款小得多的游戏呢？

It's like, oh, do I wanna bring Gloomhaven, or do I wanna bring some other game that's much smaller?

我知道自己会从架子上选哪一款。

I was like, I know which I'm which one I'm grabbing off the shelf kind of thing.

当然。

Definitely.

而且我认为，从生产角度来看，如果你能只用卡牌来完成所有设计，而不需要印刷版图，那在很多方面都能节省大量成本，这意味着你可以选择更低的定价、更高的利润空间，或者让游戏的生产变得更简单。

And I think actually from a just from a production standpoint, I mean, if you can do everything with cards and you don't have to print a board, you know, you're gonna save a lot of money in a lot of different ways, which means you can have a lower price point if you want or a higher profit margin or just kind of make the game easier to produce.

我的意思是，如果你的游戏包含卡牌、骰子、微型模型和版图等所有这些东西，那每一样都需要独立的制造流程。

I mean, if you have a game with cards and dice and miniatures and boards and all this, those are each separate manufacturing things that have to happen.

而通过省略版图这样的组件，你可以让自己轻松不少。

And by eliminating, say, the board, then you can make things easier on yourself.

但随之而来的大问题是：你最终是否不得不在某些方面做出妥协？

But then the big question becomes, do you end up having to compromise for something?

对吧？

Right?

比如，我只有x大小的空间，你知道的，三乘五、十乘十二， whatever box size you've got。

Like, I only have a space for x, you know, three by five, ten by 12, whatever box size you've got.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我会不会为了让它适应那个空间，而不得不妥协我对游戏的设想？

Do I end up having to compromise what I want the game to be to kind of make it fit into that spot?

我要说，一般来说，盒子的设计是在游戏完成后才进行的。

Now I will say, generally speaking, the box is designed after the game is made.

对吧？

Right?

但如果答案是肯定的。

But if this is Yes.

如果这就是你想要的方向，你觉得这会带来哪些问题呢？

If this is sort of the way that you wanna go, you know, what are some of the what are some of the issues that that ends up bringing up, do you think?

我认为，一方面，有时候你会失去触感体验。

Well, I think one, sometimes you don't get the tactile experience.

对吧？

Right?

有时候你得不到那种大块的棋子。

Sometimes you don't get the big chunky meeples.

你得不到那些能增加沉浸感的微型模型。

You don't get the miniatures that add a little more immersion.

大部分情况下，你得不到那种咔哒作响的棋子。

You don't get the clicky clack kind of pieces for the most part.

你得到的会是薄薄的卡片或其他类似的东西。

You're gonna then get thin cards or certain things like that.

所以，我不是说游戏越小就越好。

So I I'm not saying that games are better if they're smaller.

我确实觉得有些游戏体验我并不希望它们被缩小，但我总是对那些能精简到更小空间、从而让我在旅途中更方便携带的游戏印象深刻，但这并不意味着它们变得更好。

I think there are definitely some game experiences where I would not want a small version, but I'm always impressed when you can distill it down to a smaller space that allows me to then give it more accessibility in my adventures, but that doesn't mean it makes it better.

但我喜欢那些因为做到这一点而变得更棒的游戏。

But I love games that are better because they do that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

那么，让我们把焦点暂时放在你身上。

So let's let's, turn the spotlight on you for a moment.

葡萄酒窖在尺寸上并不是特别大的游戏。

So, wine cellar is not a particularly large game dimensionally.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Right.

那么，在设计这款游戏时，你经历了哪些设计考量？

So, why what were some of the design thoughts that you went through while you're making the game?

我意识到最终的盒子尺寸可能并不是你考虑的重点，但你知道的，你本可以设计一个棋盘、骰子，或者任何其他东西。

I realized the end box size was probably not one of the things you're considering, but, you know, you could have had a board, could have dice, you could have whatever.

那些设计思路中，有哪些逐渐清晰起来了？

What were some of those design thoughts that kinda started to distill down?

首先，我职业生涯初期是一名葡萄酒专家。

Well, one is I started off in my career, I was a wine expert.

我曾经是一名品酒师。

I was a sommelier at one point.

因此，基于这一点，我想把这份知识分享给游戏界。

So based on that, I wanted to share that knowledge with the gaming world.

对吧？

Right?

我的想法是，把我对葡萄酒的了解融入到一款有趣的游戏里，而不是像《葡萄种植》那样的大盒游戏，对吧？

Like, so what I wanted to do is wanna take what I knew about wine and make a game that was fun that wasn't say a viticulture, a big box game or Right.

《Vinos》是另一款大盒游戏。

Vinos, another big box game.

但我也并不想让它变得太肤浅。

But I also didn't want it to be kind of dumb.

我想让它是一款聪明的游戏。

I wanted it to be kind of smart game.

于是我想到一个点子：如果每张牌都代表一瓶酒，而每张牌上都标明了最适合饮用的时间线。

So I thought about this idea of what if each card is a bottle of wine and then each card tells you the timeline that's best drunk at.

对吧？

Right?

或者说是最佳饮用时机。

So or when you're best to consume it.

有些酒适合尽早饮用，有些则更适合陈年，而这个游戏的每张牌都会向每位玩家提供这些信息。

So some wines are better early, some wines are better if they're aged, and then this actually gives every person who's playing the game that information on each card.

然后我想，我特别喜欢拍卖类游戏，因为感觉更公平。

And then I thought, I love auction games because it feels more fair.

在这个游戏中，你用自己手里的牌来竞拍桌上的牌。

So in this game, you're bidding with the cards in your hand to try to collect the card on the table.

所以你是在衡量自己对选择哪张牌所赋予的价值。

So you're trying to determine how much value I'm putting on my choice about which card I get.

也许我不在乎拿到哪张牌，所以我出价很低。

Maybe I don't care which card I get, so I bid low.

或者我非常想要某一张特定的牌，所以我必须出我最大的牌。

Or I care very much that I wanna have one specific card so I gotta put my high card in there.

所以我想创造一种桌游体验，让那些喜欢葡萄酒但不懂游戏的人也能轻松参与。

So what I wanna do is create an experience around the table for a bunch of people who may love wine but don't know games, so something very accessible.

但同时也是一款不会让他们的游戏爱好者朋友感到无聊的游戏，那些朋友会兴奋地把这款游戏介绍给只喝葡萄酒、玩斯皮德牌的朋友们。

But also a game that won't bore their gamer friends who are very excited to show this to their friends who only drink wine and play spades.

对吧？

Right?

像这样的情况很可能真的存在。

Like something like that could very well be the case.

而且我也想把对葡萄酒的热爱融入其中。

And also I wanted to put that love of wine in there too.

所以每张牌上都有品酒笔记。

So there's like tasting notes on every card.

所以你可以实际看到，如果你决定喝这款酒，它可能会是什么味道。

So you can actually like see what the wine might taste like if you decided to drink it.

因此，我也希望人们能看看这些卡片，心想：这听起来像是我想尝试的，然后他们可能会去买一瓶，看看自己是否喜欢。

And so maybe I also hope to be able look at some of these cards and go, that sounds like something I want to try and maybe they go out and buy a bottle of that and see if it's something they like.

所以这就是我当时的想法。

So that was kind of my thought process in this.

但我也非常注意设计成一个小游戏，因为这最初是我和我妻子度假时玩的两人游戏。

But I also was very cognizant about making a small game because this was originally a two player game for my wife and I to take on vacation.

所以最初只有18张牌。

So it was originally just 18 cards.

我做它的时候有点像‘按钮害羞挑战’那种感觉，嗯。

I did it kind of like the button shy challenge kind of thing Mhmm.

但它并不是一个‘按钮害羞’游戏。

But it wasn't a button shy game.

从一开始我就很清楚这一点。

And I knew that from the very start.

这只是一个起点。

It just was a starting point.

但我确实这么做了。

But, I tried to do that.

果然，我和妻子玩这18张牌的时候玩得很开心。

And then sure enough, my wife and I were having fun playing it just as the 18 cards.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

我们来把它扩展到四人玩，然后六人，再扩展到八人，因为这感觉像是一个派对游戏，尽管它其实不是派对游戏。

Let's let's grow it up a little bit more to four players, then up to six players, and then up to eight players because this feels like a party game even though it's not a party game.

这是一种我想让那些举办葡萄酒派对或招待一群朋友的人能随手拿出来的游戏：你知道吗？

It's the kind of game that I want people who are having a wine party or having a bunch of people over can just pull this out and be like, you know what?

我们来快速玩个十五分钟的小游戏，乐一乐。

Let's play this fifteen minute game real quick and we'll have some laughs.

这就是这个游戏的设计灵感。

And so that was the design inspiration for this game.

太棒了。

Awesome.

所以当你在竞拍酒瓶时，你刚才说你手里的牌，这些牌也是你要竞拍的酒瓶吗？

So when you're bidding on the bottles, are you you said the cards in your hand, are they also bottles of wine that you're bidding?

这些牌是类似于

Are the cards sort of

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

游戏中每一张牌都是一瓶酒。

Every single card in the game is a bottle of wine.

明白了。

Gotcha.

所以对我来说，这是一个很有趣的设计选择，因为你完全取消了对某种货币的需求。

And so that in that that to me is a kind of an interesting, design choice because you've eliminated the need for some sort of currency.

我的意思是，这是正确的组成部分。

I mean, it's it's part of the Correct.

卡片本身。

The cards themselves.

在追求极简设计这一点上，我真的很喜欢你从18张牌的挑战开始的想法，因为这真正提炼了我想表达的——它把游戏的核心体验浓缩出来，去除了所有多余的元素。

So in the aspect of of trying to achieve a a paired down thing, which I really love the idea that you started with the 18 card challenge because that sort of distills I keep using that word, but it kinda boils it down to the key area of the game that you wanna experience and gets rid of all the superfluousness.

对吧？

Right?

你懂的？

You know?

你不需要去买卡车来运送你买下的酒瓶，诸如此类的东西。

You don't have to buy trucks to transport the bottles that you've purchased and, you know, that kind of stuff.

不用。

No.

我特别喜欢多功能的卡片。

And I love multiuse cards.

所以，如果我能设计出能做多件事的卡牌，玩家就必须选择用它来做什么。

So and if I can get cards to do multiple things, then you have to choose which way you wanna use it for it.

我认为这是一个聪明的游戏设计决策。

I think that's a smart game design decision.

但除此之外，正如我所说，我想确保这款游戏是便携式的，方便人们随时接触。

But also on top of that, like I said, I wanted to make sure this was a portable style game, something that was easily accessible to people.

那么最后，你最终用了多少张卡牌？

So at the end, what did you end up with, card number of cards wise?

72张瓶子卡，然后我想还有大约30到40张客户卡，用于各种不同的玩法变化。

72 cards of bottles, and then I think it was, like, 30 or 40 cards of client cards just for a bunch of different variations on how they play.

因为在这个游戏中，你也在试图满足客户的需求。

Because in this game, you're trying to satisfy a client too.

所以客户有特定的愿望和需求，我想确保这些不同的愿望和需求有良好的分布。

So the client has certain wants and desires, and so I wanted to make sure there was a nice spread of the different kind of wants and desires out there.

太棒了。

Excellent.

这正是我在讨论这种小盒子游戏却带来更大乐趣时所希望达成的一点：正是这些限制让您的游戏得以超越。

And this is one of the things that I was kind of hoping we could land on when we're talking about these small small box games with bigger fun is that having those types of limitations is what allows your game to transcend.

你之前提到过十分之八的比率。

You know, previously talked about the eight out of 10.

这种专注能让游戏从一款还不错的游戏蜕变为一款杰出的游戏。

Transcend from being an okay game to a great game because you've really kind of focused on it.

我总是觉得，当年《星球大战》原三部曲如此出色，原因之一就是卢卡斯没有无限的预算和随心所欲的自由。

I always think, you know, one of the things that made the original Star Wars trilogy so great was the fact that Lucas didn't have an unlimited check book and freedom to do whatever he wanted.

没错。

Nope.

他不得不做出一些取舍。

He had to make some Not yet.

对。

Right.

而当我们看到他后来真的拥有无限自由时，发生了什么？

And then we saw what happened when he did.

对吧？

Right?

故事情节没有那么扎实紧凑，有点松散散漫。

The storylines weren't quite as solid and tight, it was kind of a meandering story.

我觉得游戏设计也是完全一样的道理。

And I feel like game design, it's the exact same thing.

当你遇到一些限制时，比如，标准的印刷牌组是52张牌。

When you when you reach limits like, oh, you know, a standard printed deck is 52 cards.

如果你想要53或54张牌。

If you want fifth or 54 cards.

如果你想要55张牌，那还不如直接印60或70张。

If you want 55 cards, then we're gonna go might as well print, you know, 60 or 70 of them.

所以你要么增加更多牌，要么去掉那些你觉得不重要的牌。

So you either need to add more cards or take out the ones that you don't think are important.

确实如此。

And, very much so.

这些设计选择在你刚开始时根本不会想到。

And those are kind of designs that you don't ever really or design choices you don't ever think about when you're first starting.

对吧？

Right?

你一开始会想，哦，我想做这个，比如我想做摇滚乐队，所以我们需要音乐和乐器。

You're like, oh, I wanna do this and, you know, I wanna make rock bands, and so we gotta have music and we have instruments.

我们还需要粉丝，诸如此类的东西。

We have fans, you know, blah blah blah.

但随着游戏不断进行，你开始意识到，不对。

And then closer down to the more the game's played, you start to realize, no.

我真正想做的其实是，所有这些其他东西都可以当作背景故事、主题之类的。

What I really wanna do is, like, all this other stuff is you know, could be flavor text or or theme or something.

是的。

Yeah.

我真正想专注的是那些让我感觉像在挑选一瓶葡萄酒、练习我的音乐技巧，或者无论游戏主题是什么时最能打动我的部分。

Really wanna kinda focus on on the part that makes me feel like I'm most choosing a bottle of wine or practicing my music ship or whatever the game theme happens to be.

对。

Right.

我认为，即使在抽象游戏中保持这种专注也很重要，因为我们讨论的是很多具有主题的游戏，我认为这样更容易凸显出来。

And I think having that kind of a focus, even in an abstract game, because we're talking talking about games with a lot of theme, I think it's a little bit easier to kind of to bring it out.

但你也有一些更抽象的游戏，比如叫牌类游戏，或者类似的东西，在这些游戏中你也能获得同样的体验。

But you have some some, more abstract ones, you know, trick taking type games or or those kinds of things where you can you can have the same experience.

我们不久前邀请了贝克爷爷，他谈到了《骷髅王》，这款游戏最近像疯了一样火爆，成了经典。

We had grandpa Beck on not too long ago, and he was talking about Skull King, which has just taken off like crazy classic.

是的，说到底，它本质上是一款相对标准的叫牌游戏，但它的海盗主题非常有趣。

And, yeah, I mean, it's ultimately it's it's a relatively standard trick taking game, but it's got a fun theme with the pirates.

而其中的特殊能力卡牌真正帮助游戏超越了‘我们只是玩黑桃’的层面。

And the special power cards that come in there really help kind of change the game to something greater than, well, let's just play spades.

因此，这又是另一个例子，我认为我几乎可以用‘以小博大’这个词来形容。

And and so that, again, is another example, I think, of something I would almost use the term punching above its weight.

对？

Right?

所以你有一个海盗卡牌游戏。

So you you've got a a pirate card game.

你心想，好吧。

You're like, okay.

然后你突然想到，等等。

And then you're like, oh, wait.

这背后实际上比我最初想象的要复杂得多。

There's actually something more involved in this than than I anticipated originally.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个很好的例子。

It's a great example.

现在我想到的另一类游戏是那些表现尚可的游戏。

Now the other thing that I was thinking about is games where they're fine.

它们完成了自己该做的事。

They do what they're supposed to do.

但玩家们，无论是你的小团体还是普通玩家，都会为这个游戏带来一种‘宏大感’。

But the players, whether it's just your player group or maybe the players in general, sort of bring, I'm gonna say, the bigness to it.

所以，是的。

So Yes.

你知道，你其实是在玩一个游戏。

You know, you're kind of playing a game.

在你的团体里，如果某个人总是背负着黑标，不管那是什么东西，你总会想，当然了，又是他，于是这逐渐变成了你们团体的游戏，或者至少内部充满了各种梗。

And in your group, you know, if if someone so always has the black mark, whatever the the the thing is, you know, you're always gonna be like, well, of course, you've got it and and and and sort of it becomes the game of the group or at least there's a lot of memes internal memes going on for it.

是的。

Yeah.

这是内部笑话的肥沃土壤。

It's the it's the fertile ground of inside jokes.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我的意思是，不知为什么，总是会想到像隐藏推理游戏或者隐藏交易游戏这样的类型，你知道，谁谁谁总是狼人，或者总是交易者。

I mean, for whatever reason, always think of, like, hidden deduction games, you know, hidden trader games because it's like, oh, you know, so and so is always the the werewolf or always the trader.

所以我会立刻认定他就是，即使他在这一局里什么都没做。

So I'm gonna immediately assume that he's it even though he has done nothing in this particular game.

但这是我们玩这个游戏的历史造成的。

But that's the that's the history of us playing that game.

所以我一直在想，有没有一些设计上的选择可以增强这种效果。

And so I was kind of wondering if if there are some design choices that you can make to sort of enhance that.

我觉得这都跟主题有关，但还是好奇你对此有什么看法。

I think I think it's all theme related, but, still, I was curious if you had any thoughts about that.

我很想知道如何让我的游戏也能进入这种状态。

I would love to know more about how to get games that I make into those kind of situations.

我渴望达到这样的效果，但据我所知，要设计出这样的东西真的很难。

I aspire for those kind of things, but that's really hard as far as I'm concerned to design in.

我觉得部分原因是这个游戏必须被玩过足够多次。

Like, I think part of it is you have to have the game be played enough times.

这必须是前提。

That has to be the case.

对吧？

Right?

我认为还必须有一些公开透明的决策过程。

And I think there has to be some above board decision making.

对吧？

Right?

有一些游戏，如果你听过一个叫《Decision Space》的播客，他们会称之为‘驴子游戏’，意思是玩家更多是根据对手而不是游戏本身来做决定。

So there are games out there that are, if you ever listen to a podcast called Decision Space, they call it donkey games where like you are deciding more on the game by the player you're playing against than the actual game itself.

比如有一款叫《Agent Avenue》的游戏，玩家要选择一个眼位，其中一个可见，另一个隐藏。

Like there's a game called Agent Avenue where it's an eye split you choose and one is available to see and the other one's hidden.

而这个人只需要从这两个选项中选择一个来拿。

And that person just has to choose which of those two they're gonna take.

但那些心理博弈呢？比如我该藏好牌还是藏坏牌？

But the mind games about do I hide the good card or do I hide the bad card?

我该给你一个明显很好的牌，让你看到后想，‘我该拿这个吗？’

Do I give you something that's obviously good that you can see and then you go, oh, do I take that?

还是说这是在引诱我？

Or is that baiting me?

这类游戏对我来说设计起来非常困难，但我真希望能在自己的某个设计中找到这样的元素。

Those are the kind of games that are very difficult for me to design, but I would love to find something like that in one of my designs.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想到了心智。

That makes me think of the mind.

我仍然不是完全确定自己对这个游戏的感觉如何。

I I I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about this game.

我肯定会试一试。

I'll certainly try it.

这总是很有趣，但你知道，这本质上就是一堆卡片，从一到任意数字，你只是在猜测下一张牌会大多少，然后彼此盯着，试图逼对方出牌。

It's always fun, but, you know, it's literally a stack of cards, one to whatever, and you're just trying to estimate how much bigger the next card is going to be and just staring at each other trying to dare one another to put it down.

但果然，如果你连续玩三四次，就会开始找到一点节奏。

But sure enough, you play it three or four times in a row and you start to get a bit of a rhythm going on.

就像，你

Like, you

知道，是的。

know Yeah.

停顿的时间越长，现有数字和你搭档手中数字之间的差距就越大。

The longer the pause, the bigger the gap between the existing number and the number in your in your partner's hand.

所以这是一种

So it's a

这几乎就像荷兰式玩法，你等得越久，代价就越高。

It almost feels like a Dutch where the longer you wait, the more it costs.

对吧？

Right?

就像，这不一样。

Like, it's different.

但我认为有一个更好的游戏叫《江户》，由Arcane Wonders重新发行，每个人都会拿到一张标有数字的卡，然后你需要在不直接说出数字的情况下，向别人描述你的数字在整个范围中的位置。

But I think a game that does that but is also I think a little bit better is a game called Edo which has been reprinted by Arcane Wonders where everybody gets a card that has a number on it and then you try to tell people what number you have on the spectrum without telling the number.

比如这个游戏是关于‘味道糟糕的东西’，对吧？

So like the game is like, things that taste bad, right?

如果我的数字是100，我就得非常有创意地描述这种糟糕程度有多极端。

So if my number is a 100, I have to get very creative in like how terrible that horribleness is.

如果别人是98，我们就会有点竞争，看谁更能说明自己有多糟糕，然后在感受到之前就猜出来。

And if somebody else is a 98, we're gonna have a little competition about who is the absolute worst and try to figure out before we're feeling it.

所以它有同样的感觉。

So it has that same feel.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，我觉得这个团队也有点类似的特点。

Actually, I think the gang has a bit of a similar aspect as well.

你知道，我坐在这里

You know, I'm sitting here

确实如此。

Very much so.

我拿着两对，这是一手还算强的牌，但还有很多更强的牌型。

With two pair, and it's a reasonably strong hand, but there's lots of other hands that are stronger.

但我不确定其他人手里是什么牌，挺有趣的是，能看到懂扑克和不懂扑克的人的反应。

But I don't know, you know, who what other and and it's really funny to kind of see people who are familiar with poker and people who aren't familiar with poker.

那些不懂扑克的人会看到，有六七种牌型比两对更强，所以他们的牌算是比较弱的，而我们其他人却觉得，不是的。

So the ones that aren't familiar with poker would see that there's, like, six or seven other hands higher than two two pair, and so theirs is a relatively low hand, and the rest of us are like, no.

这已经相当强了。

That's that's pretty strong.

他们不太可能拿到比这更强的牌了。

They're not gonna get too much higher.

但你知道，这其中也有一些乐趣和学习的成分。

And so but, you know, there's there's a bit of fun and and learning there.

我们来看看这里。

Let's see here.

你还有其他想法吗？

Other thoughts that you've had?

我已经讲得差不多了，连我自己都感到惊讶。

Any I've hit most of my notes already, which surprised me.

但你对这些还有什么其他设计或实际的想法吗？

But do you have any other any design thoughts or practical thoughts in regards to these?

没有。

No.

我觉得我们已经聊了很多内容了。

I feel like we hit a lot of stuff already.

是的，我们确实聊了很多。

We did.

而且我们做得挺快的。

And we did it pretty fast.

但有一个问题，虽然不算严重，就是你提到的，这些游戏的便携性很高。

But the one problem, it's not a significant problem, but the one problem with these is, as you mentioned, their portability is high.

所以你可以拿很多个，我经常这么做。

And so you can grab a whole bunch of them, which I often do.

而且它们通常稍微轻一点，但像这样的东西可不是帽子。

And they tend to be slightly on the lighter side, but something like that's not a hat.

你知道的，我总是随手扔进包里。

You know, I'll throw in the bag all the time.

到了一天结束时，你坐在那里，面前有六个这样的游戏。

And and at the end of the day, you're sitting there with six of these games.

你会说，嘿。

You're like, hey.

那可不是帽子。

That's not a hat.

这是些表达方式。

Here's expressions.

这是Kabanga。

Here's Kabanga.

这是随便哪个。

Here's whatever.

你需要向他们大致解释每一个，同时努力挑选其中一个，就像你提到的品酒师那样。

And you explain each of them to them at a high level, but trying to pick which one and trying to push trying to you mentioned being a sommelier.

要了解这群人，判断谁喜欢记忆类游戏，谁喜欢拿取类游戏，这本身也挺有挑战性的。

Trying to figure out the group and seeing which ones would enjoy a memory game, which ones would enjoy a take that game you know, can be kind of a bit of a a challenge as well.

但如果你带两三个游戏，比如《Ticket to Ride》、《卡坦岛》，或者《暮光帝国》，那就基本定下来了。

Whereas if you brought two or three, know, here's Ticket to Ride, here's Catan, or, you know, here's Twilight Imperium, you know, it's it's kind of it's kinda set.

我认为这种想法有个危险，就是你想取悦所有人。

I think there's a there's a danger in that thought process in that you want to please everybody.

对。

Mhmm.

但你已经知道不可能让每个人都满意。

But you already know you can't please everybody.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为关键是提前了解你要面对的是哪一类群体，对吧？

So I think it's about finding the group that you're going to if you can know ahead of time, right?

并在出发前精心挑选游戏组合，我不是说这很容易，我说这非常困难。

And kind of curating the selection before you get there which I'm not saying is easy, I'm saying it's very difficult.

但如果你能把选择缩小到三个，通常群体中会有人对这三个中的某一个更感兴趣，而这种偏好通常基于主题的选择。

But if you can get it down to three, generally the group will have a preference of the three and usually it's based on picking a theme.

这在某种程度上也能帮到你。

So that could also help you on some level as well.

如果你是一个想带特定游戏的人，而且你认为他们会非常喜欢它，对吧？

If you are a person who wants to play a specific game that you think that they're going to love, right?

并不是说你玩某个游戏只是为了满足自己的私欲，而是你认为他们会非常喜欢它。

Like it's not that you don't play a specific game for your own selfish needs but you think they're going to love it.

也许你只带两个就行了。

Well maybe you just bring two.

你带一个，再带另一个，对吧？

You bring that one and something else, right?

我觉得这部分关键在于提前规划。

Like so I think part of that is just planning ahead of time.

比如打个比方，如果有人告诉我，他们喜欢霞多丽，而且偏好奶油风味的长相思。

Like for instance just to equate this as a somme thing, if someone tells me, all right they love chardonnay and they like sauvignon blancs that are more on the creamy side.

这就能告诉我很多信息，让我可以选一款他们没喝过的维欧尼，但又带有类似的特点。

Well that tells me a lot of things that I can then pick say a Viognier, Something they've never had before but has some of those similar things.

如果我的朋友说他们特别喜欢《票务之旅》，那也许我可以带《塔楼之上》，对吧？

If my group tells me they really love Ticket to Ride, well maybe I bring Tower Up, right?

我会带一款类似但又不同的游戏。

Like I'm going bring something that's close to it but different.

所以我觉得，我们现在有如此丰富的桌游选择，这一点非常棒。

And so I think part of it is we have this glutton spectrum of games that we have available to us now which is amazing.

每年都有四千款新游戏推出。

We have 4,000 games coming out every year.

我认为，如果你收藏了很多游戏，要选一款接近但略有不同的游戏其实很容易——只要坚持围绕他们熟悉的游戏，逐步向外扩展这些同心圆，这样教起来也会容易得多。

I think it's very easy to try to or not easy if you have a big collection it's much easier but picking something that is close but slightly different and just sticking to those concentric circles away from what they know, it makes it that much easier to teach as well.

这是我推荐的做法之一。

That would one of the things I recommend.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好。

Yeah.

慢慢地让他们深入，让他们的兴趣范围越来越广，我想。

Just slowly move them deep, their orbit wider and wider, I guess.

当然，没错。

And then of course Exactly.

你做了这种价格锚定。

You do that sort of price anchoring.

你知道，如果你在塔吉特或者别的地方，你会想，哦，我需要一个电饭煲。

You know, if you're in, you know, Target or whatever, you're like, oh, I need a rice cooker.

你会想，嗯，这里有25美元的和200美元的。

You're like, well, there's a twenty five dollars one and a $200 one.

你会想，算了，别买200美元的了。

You're like, well, forget the $200 one.

但如果塔吉特还有一款800美元的，突然间200美元的就显得很合理了。

But if Target also has an $800 one, suddenly the $200 one seems like the reasonable choice.

对吧？

Right?

所以你会想，哦，我有个有趣的游戏是选葡萄酒，或者我有个两小时的欧洲风漫长游戏，要往板子上放方块、移动棋子。

So you're like, oh, I've got this fun game about picking wine, or I've got this two hour, you know, Euro slogfest where you're building putting cubes on a board and moving pieces around.

你会选哪一个？

Which one would you like to choose?

来吧，我们选葡萄酒吧。

Like, let's do the wine wine.

好的。

Okay.

听起来不错。

Sounds good.

是的。

Yeah.

但你也选小瓶的。

But also, you you do the small one.

对吧？

Right?

你选便宜的那个。

You do the the cheaper one.

然后当你开始使用它时，你会觉得真的很喜欢用它。

And then as you get to using it, you're like, I really like using it.

嗯，现在我可能真的想要那款200美元的了，因为我已经有经验了。

Well, now maybe I do want the $200 one because now I have experience.

对吧？

Right?

所以现在你也知道该怎么做了。

So Now you know what you as well.

给他们小的版本。

Give them the small game.

让他们试试，自己摸索一下，看看喜不喜欢。

Let them try it, figure it out, see if they like it.

如果喜欢，那就很好。

And if they do, okay.

现在可以考虑更大的那个了。

Now there's the bigger one.

还有那个50美元的游戏。

There's the $50 game.

让我们谈谈这个，并把它带到小组中讨论。

Let's talk about that and bring that into the group.

非常好。

Excellent.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这正是一个完美的，更准确地说，我想要找的那个词？

That is a perfect a much more what's the word I'm trying to look for?

以一种体面的方式运用了我之前讨论的内容。

Honorable way of of employing what I was discussing.

当然。

Definitely.

所以简短说一下，我想聊聊酒窖的事。

So real quick, I wanna talk about wine cellar for just a little bit.

所以你成功向第二十五世纪游戏公司推介了这个游戏，在你完成设计部分后，他们给了你肯定的答复。当你向他们推介时，最终成品和你最初的构想相比变化有多大？

So you were able to, pitch this game to twenty fifth Century Games, and, they gave you the And thumbs once you had finished the design part of it, obviously, and you pitched it to them, how much had changed between what you originally envisioned and what finally came out?

我们增加了玩家人数。

We added the player count.

它不断演变并扩大了规模，因为一开始我只是觉得它可能行得通，但还没测试过。

It evolved and ballooned up from there because one, I had ideas that it could work, but I hadn't tested it yet.

对吧？

Right?

所以一旦签了合同，获得他的许可后，我就想，不如试试看能不能让这个游戏支持更多玩家。

So once I got it signed and I got his permission, I was like, let me just see if I can make this work at a higher player count.

当我成功实现更高玩家人数后，我就说，我们可以做个扩展包。

And once I was able to get up to that player count, then I said, well, we could do an expansion.

他问：‘你打算做什么样的扩展？’

He's like, well, what expansion are you thinking?

我说，我们可以直接加18张牌。

I'm like, well, we could just add 18 more cards.

他说，那就这么办吧。

He's like, we're just gonna do that.

你去把这件事搞定。

Just go ahead and make that work.

于是我心想，好吧，现在我得开始做那另外18张牌了。

So I was like, okay, now I gotta get to work on making those other 18 cards.

我之前只是猜测这可能行得通，但现在我必须让它真正实现。

I was just speculating that I could, then I had to make it happen.

但结果证明，我真的能做到。

But sure enough, I could.

所以，是的，从签合同到实际制作游戏这段时间，主要就是微调，确保所有平衡性问题都解决了，同时把玩家人数提升到更高水平。

So, yeah, the design time between the contract signed and actual making of the game was really just fine tuning and making sure that all the balance issues were were ironed out and and also bringing it to a higher player count.

我花时间做的就是这些。

That was what I spent my time doing.

有意思。

Interesting.

而且我猜，拍卖机制在玩家增多时，一方面会让拍卖更有趣，另一方面也不会显著增加游戏时间，因为当你从四名玩家...

And I guess with, auctions, having more players, a, makes the auction more interesting, and, b, doesn't really, add a ton of time to the game because, obviously, when you go from, like, four players

变成同时亮牌，所以不会多花时间。

to simultaneous reveal, so there's no extra time.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以这一点很好。

So that that is nice.

而且能够灵活地支持更多玩家游玩，当然也有很大帮助。

And having the flexibility of enjoying the game in a larger, number of players certainly certainly helps as well.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是太棒了。

Well, that is that is awesome.

非常感谢你抽出时间与我们聊天。

Well, I certainly appreciate you, taking time out to chat with us.

我对这个概念非常感兴趣，因为我觉得我们正看到越来越多的小型游戏。

I've really am intrigued by this concept because I I feel like we're seeing a lot more small games.

我觉得中等规模的游戏似乎变少了，这么说你能理解吧。

I feel like we're seeing less middle sized games, if that makes sense.

它们要么是装满各种塑料配件的巨大盒子，要么是简化了内容的小型盒装游戏。

They're either these giant boxes full of all kinds of plastic and stuff or these kind of smaller box games that kind of distill things down.

中等规模的游戏似乎没有以前那么常出现了。

The middle road middle of the road games don't seem to be coming out quite as often.

我可能错了，但感觉确实是这样。

I could be wrong, but it seems like that.

确实似乎存在一些趋势，然后会逐渐调整回来。

It does seem like there are trends and then the course corrects.

对吧？

Right?

所以，嗯。

So Mhmm.

我认为整个行业真正酷的地方在于，是的，我们面临着这些关税，整体情况有些模糊，不太景气。

I think what's really cool about the industry as a whole is, yeah, we have these tariffs and things are are are a little bit murky and not doing so well as a whole.

但卓越总能脱颖而出，人们始终在追逐下一款伟大的游戏。

But greatness always shines through and people are always looking to chase that next great game.

所以你们生产的游戏数量减少了，但也许那些正在生产的游戏质量更好了。

So you're not producing as many games, but maybe the ones that are being produced are better.

对吧？

Right?

或者，是的。

Or Yeah.

也许它们是更小的盒子，配件更少，但设计也被提炼得更精妙，把更多游戏性浓缩其中，提供更高的价值。

Maybe they're more even smaller boxes with less pieces, but they're also distilling those designs and putting more game into that to give you better value.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我们确实感觉到，游戏体验正变得更加集中，而那些额外的东西正在被舍弃。

And we are I definitely feel like we're seeing that where the game experience is being being focused on harder and sort of the extra stuff is getting left away.

如果这并不能真正提升体验，我们就会把它抛在一边。确实如此。

If this doesn't really add to the experience, then we're leaving it behind in the Very much so.

这很好。

Which is nice.

我的意思是，有时候你确实想要复杂性。

I mean, there's a time where you want the complexity.

你想要所有可以操作的杠杆和开关，但也有时候，这就是我想要的体验，这就是我想要从中获得的东西。

You want all the moving levers and switches that you can flip, but there's also times when this is the this is the experience I want and this is what I wanna get out of it.

所以。

So

好的。

Alright.

所以我们不能不谈一些游戏，至少对我来说是这样。

So we can't leave this discussion without talking about some games for me anyway.

我认为这方面的巅峰之作是《森林 shuffled》。

And I'd say the pinnacle for this is Forest Shuffle.

好的。

Okay.

它仅仅是一副牌，但却是一个牌阵构建游戏，根据你收集的不同牌获得倍增分数。

It is nothing but a deck of cards, but yet is a tableau builder with multipliers of value based on different cards you collect.

对吧？

Right?

比如，这张牌可能让你每有一张鸟牌就得一分，而这张鸟牌又让我每有一张蜥蜴牌得一分，这张蜥蜴牌再让我每有一棵树得一分，对吧？

So maybe this card gives you a point for every bird card but then that bird card gives me a point for every lizard card and that lizard card gives me a point for every tree, right?

所以，正是这种卡片之间的高度互联和层层叠加，让这款游戏显得特别。

So it's this really kind of interconnectivity and the layering of cards that I think makes this game special.

对我来说，这款游戏具有无限的可重玩性，因为你必须根据手头可用的牌来构建牌阵，而每局游戏中的牌都不一样。

This one to me has infinite replayability because you have to base your tableau on the cards you have access to and every game those are not the same.

但我也在关注对手的行动，试图阻止他们拿到能助他们获胜的牌，这种心理上的拉锯战非常精彩。

But also I'm paying attention to what my opponent is doing and trying to deny them the cards that help them win the game and this really great tug of war mentally.

所以对我来说，Forest Shuffle 是一款体积最小却能带来最大游戏体验的桌游。

So Forest Shuffle to me is the smallest distilled box that gives me the biggest game experience.

你玩过 Forest Shuffle 吗？

Have you ever played Forest Shuffle?

我没玩过，但现在把它加到清单里了。

I have not, but it is on the list now.

我强烈推荐这款游戏。

I highly recommend it.

另外，还有一款新游戏叫 Dartmoor，它改变了一些互动机制和评分方式。

Also, there's a new one called Dartmoor that, basically changed some of the interactions and some of the evaluations.

我觉得它的平衡性更好，因为可能经过了更多测试，并且借鉴了第一款游戏的经验。

I think it had better balance because I think maybe this was a little more tested and also used the first game's experience in

在

in

如何进行平衡设计。

how to do the balancing.

但如果你玩原始版的《Forest Shuffle》，我强烈推荐购买一些扩展包，因为它们并不会增加游戏的复杂性，却能解决一些平衡问题，并创造更多获胜路径。

But also if you play the original Forest Shuffle, definitely recommend picking up some of the expansions because it doesn't actually add to the complexity of the game but it does fix some balance issues and creates more paths and avenues to victory.

所以我认为这实际上让游戏的分支结构更优，整体体验也更好。

So I think it actually makes it a better branching tree and a better game as a whole.

但再说一次，这款游戏我可以装进一个自封袋或三明治袋大小的空间里，放进车里、背包里，随身携带。

But once again, this is a game I can fit into a ziplock baggy, sandwich bag size game and throw in my car, throw in my backpack, and take it with me.

尽管它在桌面上占地方，但

And even though it takes up space on the table, the

真正让

fact that

你不需要在旅行时占用空间，这才是这款游戏的精彩之处。

you don't have to take up space in the travel is what makes that game amazing.

没错。

Absolutely.

我同意。

I agree.

百分百同意。

There's 100%.

我还特别喜欢玩另一个游戏，叫《城堡组合》。

There's another one I love to play a lot, and it's called castle combo.

你玩过这个吗？

Have you played that one yet?

我没玩过。

I have not.

好的。

Alright.

这个游戏就是一叠卡片，外加几个钥匙和几个硬币。

So this one is literally a deck of cards with a couple of keys and a couple of coins.

你需要在游戏区域中央摆出一个3x3的牌阵。

You're gonna build in a three by three tableau of cards in the middle of your playing area.

每张牌都有一个你需要用硬币支付的数值，同时还有一个条件或奖励。

Each card has a value that you're gonna pay the coins in, but it also has a qualifier or a bonus.

例如，这张牌的条件是：如果它位于你的最下排，可以获得九分，同时你每有一张绿色牌在你的布局中，还能获得一枚硬币。

So for instance, the qualifier for this card is it may score nine points if it's in your bottom row but it also may give you 1 coin for every green that you have in your tableau.

因此，在构建你的布局时，你不仅在积累更多资源，以便从新获得的牌中获益，同时也在努力最大化你当前牌的得分。

So as you're building your tableau, you're building your access to more resources that you can gain from the cards you're getting while also trying to make sure that you're scoring the best you can from the cards you have out there.

也许我收集的第二张牌写着：你每有一张绿色牌在你的布局中，就能获得三分。

Maybe the second card I collect says, you're gonna get three points for every green card in your tableau.

那么现在我需要确保多放一些绿色牌进去，但下一张牌却说：我每有一张黄色牌位于这张牌的上方或下方，就能获得三分。

Well now I need to make sure I put more green cards in there but the one after that says I'm gonna get three points for every yellow card that's above or below that card.

所以现在我要想办法在布局中找到合适的位置放置这张牌，以便未来能在它的上方和下方多放一些黄色牌。

So now I'm gonna like go try to figure out where I can put that in my tableau to then put more yellow cards above and below in the future.

但与此同时，你也在自我限制，因为你总共只有九张牌。

But yet you're also constraining yourself as you're doing that because you're only nine cards.

总共只有九轮。

There's only nine turns.

好的。

Okay.

再增加一层机制，卡片分为两个不同等级。

Add in another layer where there are two different levels of cards.

有城堡卡，还有村民卡。

There's the castle card and then there's the villager card.

它们分别是灰色和棕色的。

They're the gray and the brown.

除非你花费一把钥匙将信使移动到另一个等级，否则你只能选择信使当前所在的卡片；你也可以用钥匙清除当前的卡片，获得三个新的选择。

Well, you can only choose the one that the messenger is currently in unless you spend a key to then move it to a different level or you can use your key to wipe the cards that are there and get three new choices.

所以这款游戏也是一款我认为远超其体积的游戏，它只是一个小小的盒子。

So that game also is a game that I think kicks way above its size as it's just a small box.

但天啊，我觉得我玩的每一局都不同，因为牌堆里的卡片太多，我一般连一半都看不到。

But man, do I feel like every game I play is different because there's enough cards in the deck that I'm not gonna see even half of them in a game generally.

所以我必须根据不断出现的卡片调整策略，努力让这些卡片组合出比对手更有利的搭配，但同时我仍需关注对手的动向。

And so I kinda have to pivot and adjust based on the cards that are are coming out and then try to make the combos of them work out in a more advantageous way than my opponent, but I still have to watch what my opponent's doing.

我的对手正在收集一大堆紫色卡牌。

My opponent's collecting a whole bunch of purples.

我不能给他一张能给他带来两点紫色奖励的卡。

I can't give them a card that gives them two points very purple.

对。

Right.

所以我有时候还得故意阻拦他拿这张牌，这真的很棒。

So I gotta sometimes hate draft that as well and that's really cool.

现在你和三到四个人对战，要关注多个人的动向，但我认为这款游戏远超其体量。

And you're playing three or four people now paying attention to multiple people going on, but I think that one kicks way above its weight.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这真是个完美的例子。

That's a perfect example.

你那里还有一个吗？

You got one more in there?

我应该继续吗？

Should I keep going?

我还有更多。

I have more.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

请吧。

Please.

把它们拿出来。

Bring them up.

好的。

Alright.

这是一张老牌。

Here's an old one.

这是一张我認為仍然是設計典範的老牌，叫做Cosmos公司的《Targhee》。

Here's an old one that I think is still a masterclass in design and that is a game called Targhee by Cosmos.

你玩過這個嗎？

Have you played that one?

我玩過。

I have.

這是一款雙人遊戲。

So that one is a two player game.

是頭對頭對抗的。

It is head to head.

它有點狠，但也很注重心理博弈。

It is kind of nasty, but it's also very much, in the head game.

對吧？

Right?

所以我得留意你在做什么。

So I gotta pay attention to what you're doing.

我得阻止你得到你想要的东西。

I gotta block you from getting the things you want.

我必须策略性地放置一个棋子，以便能从某一行或某一列拿走卡片，然后在y轴的x轴另一侧再选一个，从而锁定我想要的卡片。

I have to tactically place a piece that's gonna allow me to take cards from a certain row or column and then pick another one on the other side on the x axis of the y so I can target the card that I want.

但同时我也可能被阻拦，因为一旦我下了这步，对方就不能在同一层落子了。

But also I can be blocked because once I play it on that one then the other player can't play on that same level.

他们必须在其他层落子。

They have to play in a different level.

所以你们在棋盘上不断进行这种博弈。

So you're constantly doing this jockeying thing around the board.

如果你在y轴上落子，而我知道你想要中间的卡片，我只要在中间卡片的x轴上落子，你就拿不到那张卡片了。

So if you play on the y axis and I know you want the middle card, I just have to play on the x axis of the middle card and then you can't take that card.

这真是非常酷、非常有趣。

That is such a very cool interesting.

你同时在进行引擎构建和资源管理。

And you're doing engine building and resource management at the same time.

这是一款设计已久的游戏，但至今仍大受欢迎，人们依然将其视为最佳双人游戏之一。

It's just a master class for a game that's designed a long time ago that is still killing it, and people are still talking about it as one of the best two player games.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know that?

从玩法上来说，它并不相似，但它让我想起了《凯撒与克利奥帕特拉》。

It's it's not similar as far as gameplay goes, but it reminds me of Caesar and Cleopatra.

我不知道你有没有玩过，但那是

I don't know if you've ever played that, but that's

一个老游戏

an old place

在九十年代末。

In the late nineties.

确实是。

It is.

但，是的，首先，它有这些非常精致的薄卡牌。

But, yeah, first of all, it has these kinda it had these really neat thin cards.

然后它是一种类似放置卡牌的游戏，有点像《Stratego》，通过打出不同数值的卡牌来达成你的目标，同时也体现了凯撒和克利奥帕特拉之间的互动与博弈。

And then it just sorta had this card laying game where it's kinda Stratego like, trying to play cards that, had different values to kind of get what you want out of it, but also the sort of give and take between Caesar and Cleopatra.

老实跟你说吧。

And, I I'll be honest with you.

我的那套游戏已经积了不少灰，得掸一掸了，因为我以前经常玩，玩得特别开心，因为虽然游戏机制表面上很简单，但你需要做出的策略和决策却非常丰富。

There's a lot of dust on my copy, and I need to blow it off because I used to play this game a lot and just had so much fun, because of the the frequency, or the the the broad strategy and decisions that you had to make while you're playing a functionally pretty simple game.

是的。

Yeah.

这款游戏我和妻子玩了很多年，直到最后我们厌倦了彼此之间玩的心理战，才换别的游戏玩。

That's a game that my wife and I played for many years before we eventually just got tired of the head games we were playing with each other and had to play new things.

所以，没错，这确实也是一款经典之作。

So, yes, definitely that one is a classic as well.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我能理解。

I I can see that.

这让我想起了《大溪地》。

And it also makes me think of Bonanza.

我们刚才确实聊过一些能带来乐趣的游戏，或者说是乐趣的来源。

We we actually just talked about games that sort of bring the fun or what is the fun.

我们谈到了《大溪地》，它的主题是种豆子，所以没人特别热衷于这个主题。

And we were talking about Bonanza, and it's you know, the theme is bean farming, so no one no one's particularly passionate about that.

但那种不能调整手牌、无法变动手牌，并在这种功能上看似简单的卡牌堆叠游戏中应对这种限制的体验，却非常有趣。

But that whole idea of not moving your hand, not being able to adjust your hand, and sort of dealing with that kind of constraint in a game that's functionally a stack of cards is, is just a lot of fun.

我一直对《大溪地》这么简单的设计能实现这么多精彩之处感到印象深刻。

And I've I've always been impressed with all the things Bonanza can do with as simple as it was.