OBG 599：再来一次

太好了。

Excellent.

那有哪些例子呢？

So what are some examples?

有没有可能是Kinnitsia的游戏？

They Kinnitsia games by any chance?

哦，我确实喜欢Kinnitsia，大部分Kinnitsia的游戏都喜欢。

Oh, I do like Kinnitsia, most Kinnitsia games.

但是……

But...

不是。

No.

第一个会是《Moon Colony Bloodbath》，因为我之前没玩过……

The first one was gonna be Moon Colony Bloodbath because I had not done...

我在它还没上市的时候，就在展会上玩过了。

I played it, like, at a convention before it even came out.

我要告诉你一半。

And I'm gonna tell you half.

我当时就想，Tableau Builder，玩得开心极了，因为我超爱那个。

I was like, oh, Tableau Builder having the time of my life because I love that.

我喜欢同时玩。

I love simultaneous play.

我喜欢共用一副牌。

I love playing off one deck.

我喜欢那种放上很刻薄的牌却得到巨大回报的感觉。

I love the fact that I was putting in these very mean cards and getting these huge rewards.

不过，我没意识到它会

I did not, however, realize that it was going to

崩溃。

Fall apart.

引擎会崩溃。

The engine was gonna fall apart.

是的。

Yes.

直到游戏进行到一半，然后我……

Until halfway through the game, and I...

有一个真实的时刻，我说，哦，我……

There was a real moment where I said, oh, I've...

完全没预料到，但我反而更喜欢了。

Did not see this coming, and I like it even better because of it.

那款游戏我玩得很开心，但第二次玩的时候，我不仅更熟练了，而且理解得更透彻了。

I have a blast with that game, but that is one game that I very much the second time, not only was I better at it, but I understood it way better.

那是个绝佳的例子，因为我们有完全相同的经历。

That is a primo example because we had the exact same experience.

我们在一艘桌游游轮上。

We we were on a board game cruise.

我和我妻子，我们想，哦，来玩这个吧。

My wife and I, we're like, oh, let's play this.

听起来挺有意思的。

This sounds this sounds fun.

我们喜欢，你知道的，我们喜欢《领土》。

We liked, you know, we liked the Dominion.

咱们试试这个吧。

Let's give this a go.

我当时还真没搞明白故事里血腥场面是从哪儿来的。

And I wasn't really sure where the bloodbath came in in the story.

但所以……

But so...

我们开始玩，然后，对，你说得完全没错。

We start playing and then, yeah, you're exactly right.

你就会觉得，哦，这太棒了。

You're like, oh, this is great.

我手里有这牌呢。

I've got this on hand.

然后一切就崩了。

And then it all falls apart.

你会发现它总是会崩。

And you realize it will always all fall apart.

对。

Yes.

现在我教这个游戏的时候，我会告诉别人，这是一个……

Now when I teach it, I tell people this is a...

因为这是个引擎构建游戏，你会玩得很开心，但也要做好准备，这个引擎会……

Because this is an engine builder, you're gonna have a blast with that and be prepared that this engine will...

血洗是有原因的。

That there's bloodbaths for reason.

它会……

It will...

最后你的殖民地可能只剩下两三个人还活着，如果是这样，那你已经做得非常好了。

You will end up with two to three people still living in your colony, and if so, you've done a really great job.

这就是它的设计初衷。

That's how it's designed.

所以他们一开始就知道，但我玩这个游戏玩得特别开心。

So they know upfront, but I have the the best time with that game.

它真的是……

It is...

真的挺搞笑的，因为……

It's really funny because it's...

它从来不会真正让你知道会发生什么，尽管标题里已经写得很明白了。

It doesn't ever really let you know what's going to happen even though it's right in the title.

月球殖民地大屠杀。

Moon colony bloodbath.

而且有很多那种半开玩笑的艺术，里面发生着各种奇怪的事情。

And there's a lot of tongue in cheek sort of, you know, art where these weird things are happening.

然后你就会想，哦，放个机器人进去吧。

And you're like, oh, let's put a robot in.

然后你会想，好吧，这个机器人显然会杀人。

And you're like, well, this robot apparently kills people.

再看看机器人牌组的其他牌，你会发现它们都会杀人。

And you look at the rest of the robot deck, you're like, they all kill people.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

现在我明白这是怎么回事了。

Now I see what's going on here.

另外，这个游戏让我惊讶的是，通常，尤其是在这种引擎构建游戏里，我喜欢构建我的引擎，运行我的引擎，并从中获得成就感。

And the other thing that sort of surprises me about that game is normally, especially in an engine builder like that, I love to build my engine and run my engine and just take satisfaction in building and running something successfully.

而这个游戏，你知道，会让你在前两三轮这么做，然后它就会说，好了。

And this game will, you know, will let you do that for the first two or three turns and then says, alright.

轮子快要掉了，但游戏仍然很有趣。

The wheels are about to come off, but it's still fun.

所以，我觉得，这真是一个绝佳的例子。

And, so I think, yeah, that is just an amazing, an amazing example.

所以我把造成这种效果的原因大致分成了三类。

I, so I kinda put three sort of categories that kinda cause this effect.

第一类就是了解游戏本身，也就是游戏知识，我觉得《月球殖民地大屠杀》就是一个很好的例子。

One is just learning about the game, game knowledge, and I think Moon Colony Bloodbath is a is a good example of that.

第二类是理解游戏中的战术和策略。

The other is understanding the tactics and the strategy in the game.

在你玩的大多数游戏中，这一点在游戏早期就会显现出来。

In most of the games that you play, that becomes apparent early on in the game.

但有些游戏要到结尾你才会明白，哦，我一开始做的事情对结局产生了很大的影响。

But there are some where it's not until the end where you understand, oh, what I did in the beginning really had a big impact at the end.

所以这会改变你的玩法。

And so it kinda changes how you would play it.

我们一会儿会聊到其中一些例子。

And we'll talk about some of those here in a minute.

最后一类就是先入为主的观念。

And then the last one is just preconceived notions.

我知道我期待的是X，结果却得到了Y。

I know I expected x, and I ended up getting y.

很多时候，这会直接让你失去兴趣。

And there's a lot of times where that will just kill your desire.

至少对我来说，这会让我对游戏失去热情，因为我想的是，哦，我想做的是这个，但游戏根本不...

At least for me, it'll just kill my desire for the game because I was like, oh, what I wanted to do was this, but the game doesn't...

根本不是那样设计的。

Isn't built like that at all.

你有没有其他分类或者想法...

Do you have any, any other categories or thoughts on your mind...

你那边有什么想法吗？

On your end for that?

有。

I did.

我也在想同样的事情。

I I was thinking the same thing.

我觉得我们的想法差不多，就是那种游戏感觉跟预期不一样的情况。

I think we're kind of in the same route, with what makes a game feel like, you know, this is not what I expected.

下一个让我特别意外的游戏，到现在我都还没法第一次就教好它。

The next one I had that really threw me for a loop, and to this day, I cannot teach this game successfully the first time around.

这绝对是个双人游戏。

It's definitely a two player.

我会说第一次我们先试玩一下，第二次再正式玩。

I would say we're gonna play with it the first time, then we're gonna actually play it the second time we play it.

这游戏很特别，因为你得用一副牌，或者在你的牌桌上从左到右摆八张牌，来代表你的旅程。

And that's far away because you play a deck of cards or you play eight cards in your tableau left to right to represent your journey.

但计分的时候是从右往左倒着算的。

But the score when you score is backwards right to left.

所以你得设定一些目标，但你已经出过牌去达成这些目标了。

So you're setting these objectives you have to meet, but you've already played the cards to meet them.

这真的很让人困惑，第一次玩的时候我就在想，我讨厌这个游戏。

And it is very, it really throws the first time I'm like, I hate this game.

我完全搞不懂。

I don't understand it.

我当时特别生气。

I was very upset.

不管我怎么教，效果都不好。

No matter how I teach it, it never goes well.

体验总是很糟糕。

It's always a bad experience.

但第二次玩的时候，体验总是特别好。

The second time we play it, it's always a great experience.

对。

Yes.

你玩过那个吗？

Have you played that one?

我看过别人玩，但自己从来没玩过。

I've watched it play, but I've never actually played it.

不过，我确实很喜欢这个想法。

But yeah, I love that idea.

这是一个非常经典的例子：如果你一开始的两三步牌没打好，你可能几乎得不了分。

It is a very classic case of if you don't play the cards first two, three cards right, you could potentially score almost nothing.

对。

Yes.

你知道，回到八十年代，那时候有……

You know, back in the in the eighties for when there were...

当你玩电子游戏，比如在线解谜游戏或角色扮演游戏时，有个臭名昭著的情况：如果你没在……捡起那个面包……

When you're playing video games like the the online puzzle games or role playing games, it was notorious for if you didn't pick up this bread at the...

在游戏开头，你知道，玩到四分之三的时候，你才会发现，哦，你需要那个东西。

In the beginning of the game, you know, three quarters of the way through, you're gonna find out, oh, you needed that.

你死了。

You're dead.

所以你得重新开始，差不多就是这样。

So you gotta start over kind of thing.

现在游戏设计里这种情形不常见了，但桌游里偶尔还是会碰到。

And you don't see it too much now in game design, obviously, but it does pop up in board games every now and then.

哦，我……

Oh, I...

我上次玩的那个游戏……

The last game I...

对，没错。

Exactly.

我完全知道你在说什么。

I know exactly what you're talking about.

我上次玩到这种游戏是《食物链大亨》。

The last game I played like that was Food Chain Magnet.

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

我一开始做了几个错误的决定，然后就再也翻不了身了。

I made some one, bad decisions first off and, it never recovered.

那是个……

That's that's a...

那是个挺有意思的……

That's an interesting...

这让我想到，有时候有些游戏，我全程都落后，但并不是因为我玩得不好。

It made me think because there's sometimes there's games where I'm just behind the whole time, and it's not because I'm playing poorly.

而是因为我没有像其他人那样玩得那么优化。

It's because I'm just not as optimally playing as the others.

我在想像是《Heat》这样的游戏。

I'm thinking like heat.

有些《Heat》的局，你知道的，我一直垫底，怎么追都追不上，但我也没有玩得很差。

There are some games of heat where, you know, I'm just last all the time, and there's nothing I can do to get ahead, but I'm not playing super poorly.

但还有些局，你知道的，就像是我在玩……

But then there's other games where, you know, it's like, I'm playing...

我应该……

I should be...

我的分数应该更高。

My score should be higher.

它应该更准确地反映我在这款游戏中的表现。

It should be more accurately representing how well I'm playing this game.

那真有意思。

That's funny.

所以，我玩了两款完全不同的游戏，对应这个的两种不同版本。

So I I had two completely different games for two completely different versions of this.

我们姑且称之为一种现象吧。

We'll call it a phenomena.

那我们先从简单的开始，就是《福尔摩斯咨询侦探》。

So let's start with the easy one, and that is Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective.

你玩过其他版本的《福尔摩斯咨询侦探》吗？

Have you ever played any other Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective?

没有。

I haven't.

好的。

Okay.

所以这个玩法其实很简单。

So the concept is real simple.

你就是……

You are...

你会遇到一个福尔摩斯式的谜案需要你去破解。

You have a a Holmesian mystery that you have to solve.

有各种各样的证据和线索，你需要去伦敦各处找人交谈，试着弄清楚这个谜案到底是什么。

There's all kinds of evidence and clues, and you need to go around London talking to certain people and trying to figure out what the mystery is.

而且呢，有一本书你可以照着来推进。

And, you know, there's a book that you kinda follow through on that.

与此同时，福尔摩斯也在做同样的事情。

Meanwhile, Sherlock Holmes is doing the exact same thing.

所以当你最终解开谜案时，你会拿自己的速度和表现跟福尔摩斯比一比。

So when you finally have solved the mystery, you compare how quickly and how well you did it to how well Holmes does it.

感觉就是，哦，这还挺有意思的。

It's like, oh, this is kind of fun.

我和我老婆都喜欢解谜。

My wife and I like solving mysteries.

所以我们就把它拿出来玩。

So we break it out.

我们去解了第一个谜，感觉还挺不错的。

We go and we solve the first mystery and we feel pretty good.

就说我们的分数大概是60分左右，分数越低越好。

And let's just say our our score was like a 60 or something like that, and low is better.

然后我们就翻到……

So then we turn...

好。

Alright.

看看福尔摩斯表现怎么样。

Let's see how Holmes does.

我们当时可没想到，福尔摩斯每次都能完美解决。

Well, little did we know Holmes always does it perfectly.

所以，他的分数大概是15分左右吧。

So, know, his was like a 15 or something like that.

哇，真的假的。

Oh, wow.

好吧。

Okay.

现在我们明白了，比不比的其实无所谓。

So we have now learned that it doesn't matter.

我们不是跟福尔摩斯比，因为我们永远赢不了他。

We're not competing with Holmes because we'll never beat them.

所以现在就是纯粹享受解谜的过程。

So now it's just let's enjoy the mystery kind of thing.

而且现在我们了解了这个游戏，就能更享受它了。

And so now that we sort of learned about the game, now we can we can enjoy it more.

对，我超喜欢这个。

Yeah, I love that.

特别是在那些比较硬核、难度高的游戏里，我明确知道，而且我会说，在我学游戏的时候，我会说这不是最优的，但我要玩得开心，或者我想尝试游戏的每个部分、每个机制。

I am especially on the crunchier harder games, I am know for a fact and I'll say as I'm learning a game, I'll say this isn't optimal, but I'm gonna have fun or I wanna try out every part of the game or every mechanic.

然后第二次玩的时候，也许我就只走一条路线，或者确保自己在一个轨道上得分，或者全力投入一个策略。

And then the second time I play it, maybe I'll just go one route or make sure, you know, that I score one track or go all in on a strat.

但我喜欢享受整个游戏，这在分数上有时对我不利。

But I like to enjoy the whole game, and that doesn't serve me well as far as scores go sometimes.

嘿。

Hey.

如果他们给我一堆按钮和旋钮，我就想把它们都按一遍、转一遍。

If they give me a bunch of buttons and dials, I wanna push and turn them all.

我的意思是，我说过它们……

I mean, I have said they...

游戏本来就是用来享受的，我想享受它的一切，尤其是如果我要告诉别人他们该不该玩这个游戏的话。

The game was meant to be enjoyed, and I wanna enjoy all of it, especially if I'm gonna tell somebody whether or not they should play it.

确实。

Definitely.

所以接下来我想聊的这款游戏，跟刚才那个完全相反，就是《代号》。

So the next the the next game that I wanna talk about completely opposite of that is code names.

其实我们也可以把《花火》或者《炸弹克星》加进来。

And we could have thrown in Hanabi or Bombusters as well.

但这里的重点不是游戏玩法会随时间变化，而是如果你长期和同一群人玩，你们之间会逐渐建立起一种……

But the idea here is not so much that the gameplay changes over time, but if you play with the same people over time, you end up building up a...

几乎像是第二语言，或者说你们小组内部对怎么玩的一种默契。

Almost a second language or assumptions of how to play within your group.

而且，你知道，我了解你的思维方式，所以当你给出某个线索时，我能更好地把各种信息串联起来，差不多就是这种感觉。

And, you know, I know how you think, and so therefore, when you give a clue about something, I have a better way of tying it all together kind of kind of way.

你几乎……

And you almost...

比如《花火》在这方面几乎是最典型的，因为如果你和同一群人玩很多次，你们会逐渐发展出一套简化的沟通方式，用来传达对手或你……

Like, Hanabi is is almost the the worst about this because if you play it a lot with the people, you end up developing almost a shorthand to communicate how the cards are laid out in your opponent or your...

他们不是对手，是你队友的手牌。

They're not opponents, your compatriot's hands.

因为你的反应是，哦，这是个二。

Because of the way you're like this, oh, it's it's a two.

光靠语气就能让你明白，哦，好的。

And just using inflection helps you know that, oh, okay.

我不需要担心那张牌，你知道吗，这类事情就是通过和同一群人玩这些游戏，自然而然地积累起来的。

I don't need to worry about that card, you know, these kinds of things, that just sort of build up organically over time by playing with the same people in these kinds of games.

你在玩这类游戏时，自己有没有经历过这种情况？

Have you experienced that yourself in in in games like that,

玩游戏的时候？

game gaming?

当然有。

Absolutely.

当然有。

Absolutely.

没错。

Exactly.

其实你刚才提到那个的时候，让我想起了代号游戏，因为那是我们最后一次玩。

It's actually code names that, you triggered for me when you were talking about that because that's the last time.

我们玩了一个代号游戏，就是那个遗产版的关键角色游戏，我们从头玩到尾，虽然我们不太擅长那些角色。

We played a code game, that legacy critical role game, and we played it all the way through, which we were not good with the characters.

而且，我当时还不认识这些人，我是在一个展会上玩的。

Also, I didn't know these people, I was at a convention.

我们玩完了整个游戏，到最后我们配合得非常默契，就像一支真正的团队一样，轻松搞定。

We played the entire game and by the end, we were just in sync like a real team would be, just knocking out.

我们赢了整场比赛，玩得特别开心。

We won the whole thing, it was a blast.

我和他们到现在还是朋友，所以那段时间花得很值。

I'm still friends with them to this day, so it was time well spent.

我和他们在一起玩得非常愉快。

I had a really good time with them.

那太棒了。

That is awesome.

所以你和陌生人一起把传承游戏玩完了，到最后他们就不再是陌生人了。

So you played the Legacy game with strangers all the way through, and they weren't strangers by the end.

那真有意思。

That is fun.

是的。

Yes.

这让我想起我们上次去的那个令牌展。

That reminds me actually the last token con we went to.

我和我妻子想和陌生人一起玩伊藤，因为我们之前只和认识的人玩过，所以给提示什么的都挺直接的。

My wife and I wanted to play Ito with people we didn't know because we've only played it with people we knew, and so giving clues and whatnot were were fairly straightforward.

这次特别有意思，因为我们在图书馆里遇到另一对夫妻，就半哄半劝地让他们和我们一起玩。

And so this one was real interesting because it was just another couple we just kind of met in the library and sort of browbeat them into playing with us.

那个丈夫的想法和我妻子还有我一样，但是……

And like the husband thought like my wife and I did, but the...

他老婆的想法有点，怎么说呢，有点天马行空。

His wife was just kind of, I'll say at left field.

她的答案本身没什么问题，但就是跟我们几个不在一个频道上。

There was nothing wrong with her answers, but she wasn't in sync with the rest of us.

这还挺有意思的……

And it was just kind of an interesting...

对我来说，这有点像一场有趣的社会实验，就是看这些需要你内心给事物打分的游戏，因为你根本不了解对方，除了知道他们也喜欢这类游戏，你完全不知道他们怎么评价事物。

To me, it was sort of an interesting social experiment just to kinda see these games where you have to internally rate things, and you don't know how another person values anything because you don't know anything about them other than they like games like you do.

没错。

Exactly.

我的意思是，真的……

I mean, really...

我们真的通过这个更了解了彼此，而且还有一些……

We really learned a lot about each other and had some...

这是一种战友般的情谊，当你跟别人一起攻克难关，或者达成共同目标的时候。

It's a camaraderie or when you beat something like that or when you reach a combined goal with people.

就像我说的，他们现在还是朋友。

Like I said, they're still friends today.

还一直跟他们联系，跟他们在一起玩得很开心。

Still messaged them and had a best time with them.

说起来挺有意思的，你提到这个，因为其中一个人对某个线索选了“中等”。

One of the, it's funny that you bring that up too because one of them said medium for one of the clues.

他们说了“中等三”，然后……

They said medium three and...

或者“大”，然后他们改成了“大”。

Or large, and then they changed it to large.

我们当时就说，但这些都很关键啊。

We're like, but all of those are very crit.

比如，可能是……

Like, it could be...

我不知道……

I don't...

你知道吗，基本上棋盘上所有的东西都可能是那个答案。

You know, like, it was it was pretty much everything on the board could have been that.

真有意思。

That's funny.

让我看看。

Let's see here.

我还有什么其他游戏？

What other games do I have?

哦，这个游戏挺有意思的。

Oh, so this one was an interesting one.

这是个图灵机游戏。

It's a Turing machine.

在图灵机里，你基本上要猜一个密码，而且你只能问是或否的问题，而且只能问特定类型的是或否问题，机器会给你答案。

So in Turing machine, you're you're basically trying to figure out a code, and you can only ask yes or no questions and only specific types of yes or no questions, and the machine will give you the answers.

通常这是互相竞争的游戏，但我们喜欢合作着玩。

And normally, it's a race amongst one another, but we like to play it cooperatively.

不过，那游戏就像你只是……

But, you know, that game is like you just...

第一次玩的时候，你光是想搞明白这玩意儿到底怎么运作就够呛，因为它虽然不复杂，但确实挺繁琐的。

That first game, you're just trying to understand what the heck how this thing even works because it's it's not complicated, but it is complex.

你玩过《图灵机》吗？

Have you have you played Turing Machine?

玩过。

I have.

我自己就有一副。

I own it.

它是我……

It is my...

我玩过的最烂的五款游戏之一，就是因为它，因为我实在不够聪明，玩不了那个游戏。

I have five worst games I've ever played, and that is one of them because I am simply just not smart enough to play that game.

我完全搞不懂。

I do not get it.

我丈夫是职业程序员，他猜个一两三轮就搞定了。

And my husband codes for a living, and he finishes within the first one, two, three rounds of guessing.

我就想，好吧，游戏结束了。

And I'm like, okay, game over.

我连一个数字都还没猜出来呢。

I still don't know one single digit.

这不是游戏的错。

It's not the game's fault.

这游戏很棒。

The game is great.

做得很好。

It's well executed.

设计它的人，设计得非常非常好。

Whoever designed it, designed it very, very well.

太厉害了。

It's amazing.

我就是不太……

I just don't...

我就是做不到。

I just can't do it.

我的脑子不是那样转的。

My brain doesn't think like that.

我明白。

I get it.

说实话，我玩吃墩游戏的时候也差不多。

I'm pretty much the same way with Trick Takers, to be honest with you.

就像，我明明知道该怎么做，但总是选到……

It's like, I know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm always picking the...

不是当时最合适的牌。

Not the best card for the time.

我觉得这就是我脑子运作的方式吧。

It's just just the way my brain works, I think.

那你还有哪些游戏有过这种似曾相识的感觉？

So what other games have you had this sort of experience with this deja vu?

不。

No.

这甚至算不上似曾相识。

It's not even a deja vu.

就是

It's

另一个让我有这种感觉的是《艾尔斯：太阳之子》，我可能发音不太准，所以肯定会有很多人来告诉我我念得对不对。

The other one that I had is Ayers Children of the Sun, and I may be mispronouncing that, so I'm surely have lots of people telling me whether or not I'm pronouncing that correctly.

玩家们要四处旅行，收集路径，还要努力平衡太阳和月亮的行动。

But the players are traveling, picking up paths and trying to balance the sun and moon actions.

这个游戏的关键在于，最后算分时，太阳和月亮中较低的那个分数才算数，而且有上千种不同的策略和路径可以选择。

The kicker to this game is the lowest score counts at the end, either your sun or moon, and there's a thousand different strats and paths you can take.

我直到算分的时候才意识到，我之前完全玩错了这个游戏。

And I did not realize until scoring that I had played that game completely wrong.

你会想，天哪，我这些太阳简直太厉害了。

You're like, man, I'm just rocking these suns, man.

没人能比得上我。

No one's gonna touch me.

我以为我玩得挺好的。

I thought I was doing so good.

但其实你得让它们几乎碰到一起，所以得平衡好。

But you have to almost get them to almost touch, so you have to balance it out.

我真的……

I really...

总之，第二次玩的时候，我表现好多了，因为终于搞懂了计分规则。

So long story short, the second time I played it, I was far better because I actually understood what was going going on in the scoring.

你看，我觉得这个挺有意思的。

See, and I think that's an interesting one.

那些计分方式不同的游戏，我之前稍微调侃过Kenitzia，因为他经常有那种……

Games that have different type of scoring, I I mildly picked on Kenitzia because he often has the...

你的分数是你第二组里最好的，你知道，或者类似这样的规则。

Your score is the best of your second group, you know, or something like that.

但任何不是天生就是最高或最低的规则，如果你没有完全理解那些数字是怎么运作的，对，你玩到最后就会想，哦，早知道是这样，或者我要是早点意识到，我就会做不同的选择了。

But anything that's not inherently, you know, the highest or lowest, if you don't sort of grasp how all the the numbers are making that work, yeah, you get to the end, you're like, oh, well, if I had known that or if I had realized that, I would have, you know, done something different.

所以，希望这个游戏能让你觉得，好吧。

And so, hopefully, it's the game you're like, alright.

再来一次。

Let's do it again.

现在就再玩一次。

Let's just play it right now.

既然我们现在知道了，就再玩一遍吧。

Now that we know it, let's play it again.

我得再玩一次那个。

I would have to play that one again.

这个系列我们三个都有。

We have all three in this series.

这些游戏都很好，但那个游戏结尾让我有点措手不及。

They're all good games, but that one threw me for a loop on the end.

我猜也是。

I bet.

那我们来看个大游戏。

So let's look at something big.

我说的“大”是指《幽暗港》。

And by big, I mean, Gloomhaven.

那个游戏真的很有意思，因为我觉得几乎每个人都有同样的经历……

So, that game was real interesting because I think almost everybody experiences the...

大家都有相同的体验，因为他们都玩同一个剧本……

Has the same experience because they all play the same scenario...

第一个剧本。

First scenario.

但我记得，首先，要理解这个游戏怎么玩。

But I just remember, you know, first of all, understanding how the game works.

所以你先搞懂规则，然后就有这个……

So you figure out the rules, and then there's this...

这个场景，然后你打开门。

The the scenario, and you open the door.

当你打开门的时候，怪物们……

And when you open the door, the monsters...

就有两三个怪物冲出来，按照AI的指令，它们就开始猛扑你。

There's like two or three monsters that just come out and following the AI, they just start, mauling you.

在BGG上很常见的一个问题就是，哎呀，第一个场景到底怎么才能赢啊？

And a very common question on BGG was like, well, how on earth do you win on the first, you know, the first scenario?

然后你开始慢慢领悟游戏的一些微妙之处。

And then you start to learn some of the nuances of the game.

哦，原来如果你隐身了，然后站在门口，你就能挡住视线。

Oh, well, if you're invisible and then you're in the doorway, you actually block line of sight.

虽然不太合理，但游戏就是这么运作的。

It doesn't make sense, but that's how it works.

然后你就会想，哦，原来如此。

And then you're like, oh, okay.

然后你开始有点……

And then you start kind of...

你知道，从那时起，你就开始理解游戏里的战术了。

You know, from that point forward, you start to understand the tactics that are involved in the game.

比如，你本来就知道怎么玩，但现在你懂了战术，然后你就从那儿继续深入。

Like, you already knew how to play, but now you understand the tactics, and and then you sort of go off from there.

这真是个很好的例子。

That's a great example of that.

你还记得……

Do you do you remember...

我猜你至少玩过一点《幽暗港》。

I assume you played Gloomhaven at least a little bit.

我玩过。

I have.

我玩过。

I have.

每次我玩Boss战类游戏——我确实很喜欢这类游戏——我总想玩《克苏鲁：死亡终至》。

Every time I play a boss battler, which I do love boss battlers, I always wanna play Cthulhu death may die.

所以当我玩这类游戏时，我几乎就直接去玩《克苏鲁：死亡终至》了，但情况完全一样。

So I've almost gone to just playing Cthulhu death may die when I wanna play one of those types games, but it's the same exact thing.

你会随着游戏进展变得更好。

You get better as you go.

你会逐渐了解你的角色，或者知道打哪个Boss用什么最有效。

You learn your characters as you go or what's gonna be best in battling what bosses.

你玩过《克苏鲁》吗？

Have you played Cthulhu?

我没玩过《克苏鲁》。

I have not played Cthulhu.

《死亡终至》也没玩过。

Death must die.

为什么？

Why?

我……

I...

我建议你去试试。

I encourage you to do so.

好的。

Okay.

现在我们有俩游戏要玩了。

Now we have two games we gotta play.

这就对了。

There we go.

但我觉得这类事情不仅仅是，哦，我需要学会怎么更好地玩这个游戏。

But I I I feel like those kinds of things are are more than just, oh, I need to learn how to, you know, how to play the game better.

这真的是……

It's really...

这其实改变了你对游戏本质的理解，而不是像‘哦，也许我不该在这个时候开门’那样。

It kind of changes the the fundamental understanding of what's going on in the game as opposed to, oh, well, maybe I shouldn't have opened the door at this time.

我应该晚点再开门的。

I should have opened the door later.

你会觉得，当我打开门的时候，我现在明白了这个房间里任何东西的后果，大概就是这种感觉。

You're like, when I open the door, I now understand the repercussions of whatever is in this particular room kind of thing.

然后《幽港迷城》就很好，因为你会觉得，哦，你知道，现在我真的掌握了这个游戏，哦，我可以换角色或者，你知道，故事当然会分支，我现在想想，我其实从来没通关过。

And then Gloomhaven's good because it's like, oh, you know, now that I've sort of really gotten the hang of this, oh, I could change characters up or, you know, of course, the story branches off into, I never have finished it now that I think about it.

我到了……

I get...

我玩到某个地方，然后就卡住了。

I got somewhere and then it got stalled.

然后现在一想到要弄清楚我上次玩到哪儿了，就有点吓人，所以我可能得从头再来一遍。

And then now the thought of trying to figure out where I left off is kind of intimidating, so I might just have to start the whole thing over.

你怎么……

How do you...

我一直在拍一些照片，想帮自己记住我们玩到哪儿了。

I've been taking pictures some to try to help myself remember where we were.

玩这种传承类游戏，隔了很久没玩，你是怎么记住进度的？

How do you keep track of that when you're playing a legacy and you haven't played for a while?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

这……

And that's...

这真的很难。

It's it's hard.

玩《幽港迷城》的时候，我试着找了一张场景地图。

I for Gloomhaven, I tried to find a there's like a a map of the scenarios.

从场景一到场景二，然后二又分支到四或五，我就试着把我想走的路线圈出来，这样就能大概知道自己在哪儿了。

If you go from scenario one to two and then two branches to four or five and then I tried to kind of circle the the pathway that I want so that I kind of knew where I was.

但是，比如我们第一次玩《瘟疫危机：传承》第一季的时候，我记得好像有十一个……

But, like, when we first played Pandemic Legacy season one, I wanna say there was maybe an 11...

我们花了十一个月才玩完整整一局，那是因为中间隔了六个月。

It took us eleven months to play the whole thing, and that's because there's, a six month gap.

所以要想回忆起那六个月里发生了什么，确实挺有挑战的。

And so trying to remember what happened in those six months is is quite a bit of a challenge.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

我有点担心，因为我有Iridia，我们差不多也遇到同样的情况。

I'm worried because I have Iridia, and we're kind of in the similar boat.

我们大概玩到一半了，但已经有两三个月没碰了。

We're about halfway through it maybe, and we haven't played it for two or three months.

所以到时候得好好回忆一下上次玩到哪儿了。

And so it's gonna be a a big refresher of where we were when we last left off.

一样。

The same.

我最近发帖说，我也刚重新拿起我的传承游戏，隔了大概九个月。

I posted recently that I just picked up my legacy game too after about nine months.

我只有……

I've only got...

我剩下三个月了。

I'm down to three months left.

你可能会觉得我们早就玩完了，但实际上我们等了快一年才再玩。

You think we would have just finished it, but instead we waited almost a year to play it again.

而且我们同样不太记得角色，真的不太……

And we equally didn't know the characters didn't really...

花了好一会儿才重新适应当时的情况。

It took a minute to get reaccumulated to what was going on.

我

I

我们有什么能力，或者要怎样才能赢。

What powers we had or what what it would take to win.

这游戏到底怎么玩来着？

How does this game even work?

我记不清了。

I can't remember.

其实我之前都没想过这个，但传承类桌游确实是这种玩法里很有意思的一种变体，因为不只是我的知识或想法变了，而是游戏本身也会变。

Actually, I hadn't even considered that, but legacy games are a real interesting sort of version of this because it's not so much that now my knowledge or my thinking has changed, but actually the game itself will change.

所以呢，对，我们最喜欢的传承类桌游之一就是《背叛传承》。

And so and so, yeah, one of our favorite legacy games was Betrayal Legacy.

我儿子特别喜欢《背叛》，就爱它那种无厘头的劲儿。

My son loves Betrayal and just embraces the the wackiness of it.

所以玩传承版的时候，那种无厘头的感觉就一次次被放大。

And so playing the legacy game just enhanced the wackiness over and over again.

然后呢……

And and...

随着游戏沿着它的路线不断演变，你就会觉得，行吧。

And as the game's kind of morphing along its its path, you're just kind of like, alright.

就跟着变化走吧。

Let's kinda roll roll with the changes there.

当然，你知道，像《瘟疫危机：传承》那样，游戏进行几个月后会有那个重大的转折点。

And, of course, you know, like Pandemic Legacy, there's that major big, you know, shift number one that happens a couple of couple of months in.

如果你玩过，你就知道我们在说什么。

If you played it, you know what we're talking about.

他当时就说，哦，原来是这种游戏啊。

He was like, oh, it's gonna be that kind of game.

明白了。

I see.

好的。

Alright.

你还有别的游戏想聊吗？

Do you have another game on your list that you wanted to talk about?

如果没有，我这边还有几个。

If not, I've got a few more.

我有一个，但我觉得大家都会提到这个。

I have one, but I figured everybody would say this.

所以，就是《灵岛》这款游戏。

So, it's Spirit Island.

而且百分之百，必须玩第二次才能真正理解它，真正看清我们面对的是什么。

And a 100%, had to play that a second time to truly grasp it and truly see what we're working with.

再说，它是一款……

Again, it's a...

我不知道该怎么……

I don't know how to...

我是说，大家都玩过。

I mean, everybody's played it.

还有，这是一款我跟别人说我不喜欢的游戏。

Also, that's a game where I tell people I don't like it.

它可能排在我最不喜欢的十款游戏里。

It's probably in my bottom 10.

然后他们就说，那是不懂它。

And they say, well, don't understand it.

不，我确实理解它。

No, I do understand it.

你可以理解一个游戏并且知道怎么玩，但就是不喜欢它。

You can understand a game and know how to play it dislike I

我不喜欢它。

don't like it.

这些情况都是可以同时存在的。

All those things can exist.

但每次我这么说，人们都会那样回应。

But every time I say that, that's what people say.

我明白。

I get that.

我完全理解你的感受，因为有好几个游戏，我明白为什么人们喜欢它们，也完全理解为什么我不喜欢。

Totally understand where you're coming at because there's multiple games where like, I get why people like it and I understand completely why I don't like it.

我不认为它一定是个坏游戏，但它不适合我。

I don't think it's necessarily a bad game, but it is not a game for me.

有一个我一直在犹豫要不要放进去的游戏，但最后还是放进来了，那就是《火星改造》。

So one that I was kinda debating about whether or not to put in here, but I I went ahead and did anyway, and that is, Terraforming Mars.

哦，那是我最喜欢的游戏之一。

Oh, that's one of my favorite games.

我……

I...

好。

Good.

但关于这个游戏，第二次玩的时候我真的很欣赏的一点是，首先你对卡牌有了更好的了解。

But the the thing with it, the second play that I really appreciated is that first of all, you have a better idea of the cards.

因为第一次学这个游戏的时候，你只是大概知道所有东西是怎么运作的，然后……

Because when you first are learning the game, you just kind of understand how everything works and then...

但你不会去翻遍那副牌，搞清楚每张牌是什么。

But you're not gonna go through that deck and understand what the cards are.

所以到第一局结束的时候，那已经花了挺长时间，因为我觉得《火星改造》做得很好的一点是，它基本上是在玩家准备好结束的时候才结束游戏。

So by the end of your first game, which will have taken quite a while because one of the things I think Terraforming Mars does really well is it just sets the end game when the players are effectively ready to end it.

没有那种突然就结束的设定。

There's no arbitrary suddenly it's over.

就是……

It's...

就是……

It...

总会有人知道该怎么玩。

Somebody's going to to know what they're doing.

所以呢，第一局通常要花挺长时间，尤其是如果大家都是新手，因为你知道，他们就是按照自己想玩的节奏慢慢来。

And so consequently, that first game usually takes a while, especially if everyone is new because, you know, they're just sort of moving along at the pace that they want to move at.

然后玩过之后，你就明白了。

And then after that, now you get it.

好。

Okay.

我看到了可以走的不同路线，而且，你知道，我可以更偏向于自己所在的公司。

I see the different paths that I can take and, you know, I can lean more into the corporations that I happen to be in.

然后它不一定变得更竞争，虽然确实可能，但我觉得更准确的说法是变得更紧凑了。

And then it becomes not necessarily more competitive, although it certainly can, but it certainly becomes tighter, I think is a better way to put it.

同意。

Agreed.

因为《恐怖神秘》是我前十名的游戏，《火星改造》也在里面，但我同意。

Because Terror Mystic is is my top 10 and Terraforming Mars is on there too, but I agree.

它超级……

It's a super...

我超爱那个游戏。

I love that game.

它是我前十名的游戏之一。

It's one of my top 10.

现在《创新时代》出来的时候确实取代了它的位置，因为我更喜欢《创新时代》一点，因为它就像《盖亚计划》和《火星改造》生了个孩子，变成了《创新时代》。

Now Age of Innovation when it came out did take its place because I like Age of Innovation slightly better because it's like both that and Gaia Project like had a baby and made Age Innovation.

所以它把这两个游戏里我喜欢的东西都加到了一个里面，但本质上是一样的。

So it took the things I like from both those games and added it to one, but it would be the same.

你得先搞清楚自己的派系……

You gotta know your fraction...

还有怎么打，对吧。

Factions and how to No.

之后才能根据派系特点来制定策略，但这不是一开始就能掌握的。

Play to your factions after that, which you don't get on the first time.

我头一回玩某个派系的时候，也完全摸不着头脑。

I don't even get it the first time I play the faction.

我几乎得……

I almost have to...

我……

I...

要想真正玩透一款游戏，我必须把这款……

To really truly optimize a game, I have to play this...

不仅这款游戏，而且那个阵营我得打两遍。

That not only that game, but that faction twice.

其实不是它们不明显，而是你一开始不明白后果。

Because it's it's not that they're subtle, but you don't understand the repercussions.

比如，哦，我可以把热能变成，你知道的，随便什么。

Like, oh, so I can turn heat into, you know, whatever.

我记不清那家公司是干什么的了。

I can't remember what that company does.

也许是把热能变成钱吧。

Turns heat into money maybe.

然后你会想，对，但我需要热能来提高温度，这样我后面才能拿到我的东西。

And you're like, well, yeah, but I need the heat to raise up the volume, you know, the temperature so I can get my thing later.

然后某个时候你会意识到，哦，到某个阶段热能对你来说就是死资源了。

Then at some point you realize, oh, at some point heat's a dead resource to you.

这时候这个家伙就真正派上用场了，等等。

This is where this guy really comes into play and whatever.

所以，再说，考虑到牌库大小和公司数量之间的各种组合，再加上如果你加个前奏曲，为什么不加呢？

So, and again, with the the permutations between the size of the deck and the number of corporations, and then if you add like Prelude, which why wouldn't you?

这样一来，就变成了很多有趣的小路径，你可以选择不同的走法。

Then it becomes it becomes a lot of neat little paths that you can take.

我觉得这是关键的一点，就是这不是一个每次都用同样方式玩的游戏。

And I think that's that's a big key here is like it's not a game where you're gonna play the same way every single time.

你会开始体验一些不同的路径，这让游戏变得很有意思。

You you start to kind of experience some of the different paths that make it make it kind of interesting.

我觉得这就是为什么它一直在我清单上的原因，因为它是个常青游戏，因为对我来说它总是很刺激，因为我总是想尝试不同的东西。

I think that's what keeps that on my list because it's an evergreen because it's always going to be exciting to me because I'm always going to try to do something different.

我还喜欢的一点是，它既取决于玩家，也取决于你将要有的体验。因为可能有一群玩家会说，哦，是的，我们就是想慢慢来，好好发展我们的引擎，然后再去改造火星。

And the other thing that I kind of like about it is that it is player dependent as well as the kind of experience you're going to have Because you may have a group of players that are like, oh yeah, we just want to kind of take our time and really, you know, build up our engine and then we'll we'll terraform Mars.

然后还有别的玩家，他们会觉得这是一场比赛，他们会尽可能快地改造火星。

Then there's, you know, other players that are like, it's a race and they're going to they're going to try and terraform it as quickly as possible.

所以如果你愿意的话，你几乎可以根据自己的玩法风格来调整。

So you can almost tailor it to your sort of play style if you wish.

那么还有另一个方面，这种类似的现象经常发生在我身上，我想你也会遇到。

So then there's one other sort of aspect of this kind of phenomena that that happens to me all the time, and I assume it happens to you as well.

就是玩完一局游戏后，你会想，哦，现在我懂了。

And that is you play the game and it's over and you're like, Now I get it.

再来一局吧。

Let's play it again.

然后你再来一局，结果比第一次什么都不懂的时候打得还差。

And you play it again and you do horribly worse than you did the first time when you didn't know what you were doing.

对我来说，《伯明翰》就是这样的游戏之一。

Brass Birmingham is one of the ones for me that does it.

我就想，哦，好吧。

I'm like, oh, okay.

我明白了。

I get it.

我需要啤酒桶。

I need the beer barrels.

我需要建火车，然后我意识到它们会消失，好吧。

I need, you know, to build the trains, and I realize they're gonna go away and, you know, alright.

现在我明白了。

Now I get it.

然后我觉得自己知道该怎么玩了，就开始建更多东西，尝试各种操作，结果发现我的分数比第一次玩的时候还少了20分，那时候我还什么都不懂。

And now that I think that I know what I'm doing, I start building more stuff and trying to do things and realize that my score is 20 points less than it was the first time I played when I didn't know what I was doing.

我也遇到过这种情况。

I have had that happen.

我在想有哪些游戏是这样的。

I'm trying to think of some games.

一时半会儿想不起来，但我知道我也经历过。

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I know that's happened to me too.

所以有时候是因为其他玩家比我更快地掌握了玩法。

So every once in a while, it's because the other players grabbed onto it faster than I did.

但很多时候，就是觉得，好吧。

But a lot of times, it's like, okay.

现在我觉得这是个最优策略。

Now I think this is an optimal strategy.

然后当我开始行动的时候，你知道，游戏进行到四分之三的时候，我意识到我采用的策略有局限性。

And then as I start running, you know, three quarters of way through the game, I realize the limitations of the strategy that I've applied.

而《Brass》在这方面特别残酷，因为游戏进行到一半时，你建的所有东西基本上都没了，或者说不是全部，但至少你建立的所有连接都没了。

And brass is particularly brutal about it because halfway through the game, everything you built kinda goes away or not everything, but at least all the connectivity that you built goes away.

就像，哦，我好不容易弄成我想要的样子，又得从头开始了。

Like, oh, I gotta start from scratch again just as I got this the way I wanted.

你说的话让我想到了《Nucleum》，因为我第二次玩的时候，我有一个非常好的策略，但因为玩家人数，它被堵住了，而我正要去那些被堵住的区域。

What you said made me think of Nucleum because the second time I played it, I had a really great strategy, but it blocks off because of player count, and I was going to blocked off areas.

就像我有一个大计划要去一个被堵住的地方，所以基本上浪费了我两个小时的生命，试图去一个我根本去不了的地方。

Like I had a huge plan to go to something that was blocked off at the top, so basically wasted two hours of my life like trying to get to somewhere that I can't even get to.

对。

Yep.

就像，我没有好好跟进。

Like, I wasn't following it up properly.

当我玩一些外国地图的时候，你知道，比如《Ticket to Ride》的非美国地图，这种情况经常发生。

When I play some of the foreign maps, you know, non US maps on Ticket to Ride, that happens a lot.

就像，哦，我本来要去不来梅的。

It's like, oh, I was going to Bremen.

我以为我要去伯曼呢。

I thought I was going to Berman.

我从来没玩过外国地图。

I've never played foreign maps.

哦。

Oh.

那应该挺酷的。

That would be cool.

它们挺有意思的。

They're pretty fun.

我们真的很喜欢马克林，因为它加了乘客这些元素。

We we really like to Marklin because it adds this passenger and stuff.

所以你就在德国到处跑。

So you're going all over Germany.

但要记住德国哪些地方对应哪里，有时候还挺有挑战性的。

But trying to keep track of what parts of Germany go where, it's a bit of a challenge sometimes.

你给我的清单上又多了好多游戏。

You've given me a lot of games on my list.

我都记下来了，因为我超爱新游戏。

I'm writing them down because I love new games.

我特别喜欢玩游戏。

I love to play games.

所以这次经历对我来说真的很有趣。

So this has been a fun experience for me.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

那么最后，你还有一些游戏，你对它们有先入为主的看法。

So then lastly, you've got the games that that, you have your preconceived notions.

我在这段对话里可能已经说了三次“最后”了，因为我总是想到别的东西。

And I've said lastly probably three times in this conversation because I keep thinking of something else.

但对我来说，最经典的例子就是……

But, for me, the classic example of this one was the...

好的。

Okay.

我要说的是《蝙蝠侠：哥谭市编年史》。

I'm gonna say Batman Gotham City Chronicles.

我经常提到这个游戏，它真的是一款很有趣的微缩模型游戏。

I talk about this a lot where it's a really fun miniature game.

你扮演蝙蝠侠，要对抗贝恩和那些坏蛋，还有罗宾他们帮忙。

You're Batman, and you're going up against, you know, Bane and all these bad guys, and and you got Robin and stuff.

你本来想跑来跑去揍坏人，做点蝙蝠侠该做的事。

And what you wanna do is run around and beat up bad guys and do Bat man stuff.

但实际上你玩的是一个非常紧凑的谜题。

But what you're actually involved in is a really tight puzzle.

如果你不按照最优策略来，时间就会不够用，然后你就赢不了。

And if you don't kind of follow through sort of the optimal strategy, you're gonna run out of time and you're not going to win.

而最优策略往往不是去打贝恩，或者别的什么。

And the optimal strategy is often not beating up Bane, for instance, or or or whatever.

所以，你心里想玩的那种游戏，和你实际要做的之间，有点脱节。

And so there's a bit of a a disconnect there between what you think you wanna do with the game and then what you...

游戏真正想让你做的。

The game actually wants you to do.

我还想提一下漫威或DC的联合游戏，你会想，哦，我要当超级英雄，去和超级反派打架。

And I would actually throw in the Marvel or DC United games as well where you're like, oh, I'm gonna be a superhero, and I'm gonna go fight the supervillains.

但实际玩起来，方式非常抽象。

And and you do that in a very abstract manner.

你就是在收集代币或符号，填格子，然后做别的事情。

You're you're you're collecting tokens or symbols to fill in boxes to, you know, do other things.

它其实……

And it it...

它有点超级英雄的味道，但……

It's superheroesque, but it's...

我不确定这真的让你感觉像在扮演蝙蝠侠、金刚狼或者别的什么角色。

I don't know that it actually feels like you're you're Batman or or Wolverine or or whoever.

我也不太清楚。

I don't know.

你在《United》里遇到过这些问题吗？

Have you you experienced any of those issues with United?

我拥有所有《United》的卡牌。

I own all United.

每一张出过的卡我都有，因为我是个完美主义者。

Every card that's ever been made because I'm a completionist.

那真是浪费。

That is a waste.

他们叫我。

They call me.

我知道他们现在算是三线角色了，但我还是……

I know they're real c list characters now, but I still...

我们还在买，因为，你知道，为什么要现在停下来呢？

We're still buying them because, you know, why stop now?

但不知道。

But don't know.

我玩的时候总是幻想自己就是那个角色。

I always fantasize that I am that character when I play it.

嗯，我肯定要说，迷你模型帮助很大。

Well, I'll definitely say the miniatures help a lot.

而且我不想让人觉得这游戏不好玩。

And and and I don't want it to sound like the game isn't fun.

我确实很喜欢这个游戏。

I definitely enjoy the game.

我只是得稍微降低一下我对超级英雄的期待。

I just have to temper some of my superhero ness or superhero expectations.

我喜欢它，因为它是个谜题。

I like it because it is the puzzle.