OBG 572：重建

逆天才(Inverse Genius)隆重呈现《桌游随行》第572期节目——‘重构’。

Inverse Genius proudly presents onboard games episode five seventy two, Reconstruction.

您正在收听《桌游随行》，这是一档由游戏行业资深人士主持的节目，他们在探讨玩家、设计师和发行商感兴趣话题的同时，分享棋盘与卡牌游戏的乐趣。

You are listening to Onboard Games, where game industry veterans talk about the board and card gaming hobby while exploring topics of interest to gamers, designers, and publishers.

本期现场特别节目中，埃里克与马克·斯佩克特在一场私人游戏活动上相遇，共同探讨如何重塑经典游戏。《桌游随行》由patreon.com/obg上我们出色的赞助者们赞助播出。衷心感谢你们的持续支持，来自Patreon的每一笔款项都用于支付我们每月的播客制作成本，这份支持令我们无比感激。

In this live episode, Eric meets up with Mark Spector at a private gaming event to talk all about rebuilding a classic game. Onboard games is sponsored by our amazing patrons at patreon.com/obg. Thank you so much for your continued support. Everything that comes in from Patreon covers our monthly podcasting costs, and it is amazingly appreciated. Thank you.

我们还开设了周边商店。若想获取《桌游随行》主题商品，请访问ingroupgenius.com并点击商店页面浏览。如果有您想要但我们未上架的商品，请随时告知，我们将尽力实现。我们珍视反馈意见，您可以通过onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com发送邮件，或前往BoardGameGeek平台的325号公会，亦或在Facebook和Twitter上搜索@onboardgames联系我们。

And we have a merch store. If you wanna get some onboard game swag, you can go to ingroupgenius.com and click on store and see what we have there. If there's something you wish we had and it's not there, just let me know, and we'll see if we can make that happen. We live for feedback, so you can send us email at onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com. You can go to our guild, guild three two five on board game geek, or hit us up on Facebook or Twitter on onboard games.

一如既往感谢您的收听，并请继续帮我们传播节目。谢谢。大家好，欢迎来到《桌游随行》的又一期远程录制节目，我是主持人埃里克·杜威。

As always, thank you for listening, and please continue to spread the news. Thanks. Hello. Welcome to another remote episode of onboard games. I'm your host, Eric Dewey.

您可以通过ericdewey.com或全网通用的erik（拼作a-y-r-k）找到我。而与我同台的，是游戏界最重量级的人物——马克·斯佩克特先生。马克，

You can find me at eric dewey dot com or erik, a y r k, all over the Internet. And with me, I have the grandest gamer of them all, mister Mark Spector. Mark,

你们好。很荣幸参与这次录制。有趣的是，虽然这期是远程节目，但我们此刻的实际距离比以往任何一次录制时都要近。

hello. It is a pleasure to be here. And it's funny that this is a remote episode because we are closer together than we have ever been when we've recorded.

完全正确。我们正在参加一个私人活动，玩了很多游戏，而且终于有机会面对面相见，这可能是第一次

That is exactly right. We are at a private event and been getting a lot of gaming in and actually get to see each other face to face, which is probably the first time

自从我带着儿子进行那次横跨美国西南部的旅行，途中承蒙你热情招待我们共进晚餐。当时我们就像赶场一样，吃完就得走，虽然感到愧疚，但你知道我们有个必须抵达的目的地

since Since I did my cross country, my great American Southwest tour with my son where you were kind enough to host us, for dinner on on route. And, you know, we were like in eight out. It was it was eat and run. I felt guilty, but, you know, we had we had a destination we needed to

必须赶到，而你当时，

get to and you were,

就像我说的，好心在路上给我们提供了食物。

like I said, kind enough to feed us on the way.

我很理解赶时间的感受。正如你所见，我们正在现场录制，所以音质会和平常有些不同。不过马克，你最近玩过——我知道答案是肯定的——有什么新游戏或

I can appreciate a good deadline. So as you could tell, this we're recording this live, so sound quality would be a little bit different than normal. But, Mark, have you played? And I know the answer is yes. Anything new or

有趣的东西吗？新的或有趣的。让我想想。好吧，我按时间倒序来说。

interesting lately? New or interesting. Let's see. Okay. So I will work backwards here.

我们刚吃完午饭回来。出发前，我刚刚第一次试玩了——其实是两局——二十五世纪游戏公司新推出的《仓鼠滚球》改编版。这是个重度德式策略...开玩笑的，这游戏跟那种类型完全不沾边。

We just got back from lunch. And just prior to leaving, I had my first first go, two games actually, of the new implementation of hamster roll from twenty fifth century games. It's a heavy euro that come no. Just kidding. It is the furthest thing from that.

这是一款考验手部灵活性的游戏，每位玩家会拿到一套相同的拼图块。目标是通过小心翼翼地将这些拼图块放入一个类似仓鼠滚轮的装置中，成为第一个清空手中拼图块的人。滚轮内侧边缘有约一英寸高的辐条，每次放置拼图块后都需要向前转动滚轮，既要确保自己放置的块不掉落，也不能让其他块滑落。像我这样多次笨手笨脚导致拼图块掉落的话，虽然赢不了比赛，但过程充满乐趣。我认为这是非常适合家庭共玩的游戏。

It is a dexterity game where you get handed a set of pieces. Everyone has the same set of pieces, and the goal is to be the first one to shed all of your pieces by placing them oh so carefully in a, in in what functions as kind of like a hamster wheel. It has spokes in it that go about an inch up from the inner edge of the circle, and you, will move the wheel forward every time you place a piece, and you want to do that without causing other pieces to fall out, even the one you place. And if you are foolish enough to make them drop like I did many times, you don't win, but you have a good time doing it. And I think it's a perfect game for families.

我确实考虑给孩子们买一套。这应该会成为我们家常玩的绿色环保活动。虽然不完全符合我平时的喜好——但我和孩子们在餐厅有个固定节目：每当看到桌上那种三角形塑料菜单时...

Definitely looking to pick up a copy for my kids, I think. Yeah. I think it'll be a green light family activity. Really not yeah. Not typically what I'm after, but I do this thing with my kids when we go to a restaurant and they have the the triangular menu, little plastic triangular menu on the table.

嗯哼。我会告诉他们如果能倒立摆放菜单就奖励五美元，这根本不可能做到。所以这个游戏至少能让他们在类似情境中获得成就感。

Uh-huh. And I'll tell them that if they can balance it on its head, I'll give them $5, which is impossible. It's impossible. So this at least will give them the satisfaction in in a similar area of life.

有意思的是，我和艾米第一次玩也是三个人，但体验平平。首轮游戏过于简单，大家只是机械地放拼图块，几乎没发生过掉落。第二轮我们尝试在滚轮远端采取策略，稍微有趣些，但仍不够刺激。后来看你们五人玩的时候，场面就...

That's interesting because Amy and I played it with a third person first time as well, and it kinda fell flat for us. And I'm not the first time we played it was all very straightforward. We all just put our pieces on and very rarely did anything fall out. The second time we played it, we tried to be a little more strategic farther down the wheel, and it was a little bit more, but it still wasn't like but then I watched you guys play, there's, like, five of you, and it was it was kind of an interesting, I mean, was that

没错。当时气氛有点紧张，特别是前一位玩家放完拼图块后，你会有种'这步棋害惨我了'的感觉。

Yeah. I mean, it was it was a little tense, and I felt like, you know, that I don't know. That you the person before you places a piece, and you're like, oh, you really screwed me.

对。你

Right. You

懂吧？下一步该怎么放？总之我觉得很有趣，虽然这游戏不会改变人生就是了。

know? How am I gonna place a next thing? So yeah. I mean, I enjoyed it. It's, you know, not gonna change anyone's life.

我是说，但它

I mean but it's

它名副其实。

It does what it says on the box.

没错，完全正确。我觉得我的孩子们会非常喜欢，他们分别是13岁、10岁，

Exactly. Exactly. And I'm like, I I think it'll go over great with my young kids, which are, you know, 13, 10,

和8岁。对，对，对。

and eight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

你知道，我认为这就是它的定位所在。

You know, I think that's where it sits.

我想在我们家，用《犀牛英雄》就能满足这个需求。

I think we'll scratch that itch with Rhino Hero at our house.

《犀牛英雄》太棒了。我知道，我也和孩子们一起玩过。

Rhino Hero is amazing. I know. I have played that with the kids as well.

哦，太棒了。好吧，让我看看。我正在试着查看清单。老实说，我们来聊聊Kokeshi吧。

Oh, awesome. Well, let's see. I'm trying to look at the list of stuff. Honestly, let's talk about Kokeshi.

可以吗？哦，好吧。如果必须的话。如果必须的话。那么Yuvi，不如你先开始？

Can we? Oh, okay. If we must. If we must. So but Yuvi, why don't you go first?

当然。你想让我说说Kokeshi是关于什么的吗？

Sure. You want me to say what Kokeshi is about?

请直接开始吧。

Go go right ahead.

好的。Kokeshi是我最新的游戏，将于明年第一季度末或第二季度初正式发布。我正安排一批游戏运往埃森展进行软发布，虽然我不确定在埃森展发布算不算软发布。总之，这是一款以日本为主题的抽象引擎构建游戏，玩家扮演制作Kokeshi（日本木制玩偶）的工匠。抱歉我抢先透露了重点。

Okay. So Kokeshi is my newest game that's gonna be coming officially out in late Q1, early Q2 next year. I'm having a set of games flown in for Essen to sort of soft launch it there, although I'm not sure anything that launches it. Essen is a soft But anyway, it is a Japanese themed abstract engine builder that you are artisans making kokeshi, which are Japanese wooden dolls. Sorry for bearing bearing the lead there.

实际上你不是真的制作玩偶，而是通过在这些轨道上放置精美的板块来构建引擎。你的小Kokeshi会在轨道上前进，触发另一条轨道上的板块，进而又触发其他轨道的板块，如此循环往复。游戏目标是通过完成多种任务获得最高分数——有多重得分途径。你需要打造一个高效的引擎，帮助你在动物Kokeshi轨道上得分。

You're not really making dolls, but the idea is that you are building an engine by placing these wonderful tiles on tracks. And you will move your little Kokeshi up a track, which will trigger a tile on another track, which will trigger a tile on another track, on and on and on. And the goal of the game is to score the most points by, well, doing a lot of things. There's multiple goals. You want to get a really good engine going, which will help you score on the animal Kokeshi tracks.

如果你到达轨道顶端，会获得一些分数。根据你构建轨道的规模，还能得到额外分数。但如果你做了蠢事，比如把同色板块相邻放置，就会扣分——我似乎总忍不住犯这种错误。这款引擎构建游戏节奏舒缓但成就感十足，当你完美运转引擎时，会觉得自己聪明绝顶。

If you get up to the top of a track, you'll score some points. And then depending on how big you build your tracks, you will also get points. If you do dumb things like put like colored tiles next to one another, will lose points, which I seem to have a penchant for doing. And it is just a really satisfying little engine builder that, has a slow start. But then when you begin to run your engine and you really nail it, you feel super clever.

而且看起来很美。关于我的游戏，我想我已经说得够多了。现在轮到你了。

And it's beautiful to look at. And, I think I've said enough about my game. You get to go now.

是啊。你拿走了我所有的东西。哦，哇。因为它确实很美，也很有趣。

Yeah. You took all my took all my stuff. Oh, wow. Because, yeah, it is beautiful. It is fun.

那些小部件手感很好，搭建你的引擎并让它运转起来的满足感也非常有趣。这游戏一结束我们就想立刻再玩一局，现在我知道该怎么玩了。

The tack the pieces are really nice and tactile, and that satisfaction of building your engine and getting it to work is a lot of fun as well. And it was the kind of game as soon as we finished playing, it's like, we need to play it again. Now that I know what we're doing.

我正想说，看着你和艾米的学习曲线很有意思，因为第二局你们采取了完全不同于第一局的策略。对，看到你们从一种方式成长到另一种方式真的很酷。

That's what I was gonna say is I actually thought the learning curve that I watched you and Amy experience was interesting because you took your second game, you took a totally different approach than your first game. Yeah. And, yeah, that was really cool to see. That you sort of, you know, from one or the other, you grew into it. You know?

嗯。游戏有足够的操作空间保持趣味性，又不会多到让你从第一局到第二局感到难以掌控。至于能否比别人玩得更好——你第二局确实做到了——那就是另一回事了，但效果确实很棒。

Mhmm. There's enough levers to pull that it stays interesting, but not so many that you can have that leap from game one to game two and and really feel you have a handle on it. Now whether you can do it better than everyone else, which you did in your second game, is another question, but, yeah, it worked out really well.

是的。我真的很喜欢这游戏。我特别期待它正式发行，因为它完美满足了我的需求。它既可爱又有深度，不是那种肤浅的轻度游戏。

Yeah. I really like this game. I am definitely looking forward to when it comes out because it scratches a great itch. It's a cute game, but it's it's there's a depth to it as well. So it's not just kind of a superfluous sort of lighter game.

引擎构建相当简单直接，直到你开始尝试实现某个目标时才会发现：好吧，我得先做这个、这个和这个，才能达成那个。而这个过程对我来说充满乐趣，正是我享受的游戏中的智力拼图。

And the engine building is pretty simple, pretty straightforward until you start to try to want to do something, and then you think, alright. I need to do this, to do this, to do this, so I can do that. And that's, to me, a lot of fun. That's the mental puzzle that I enjoy about the game.

没错。而且由于我这个天才在节目开始时忘了自我推销，你可以在grandgamerskill.com找到我，Kokeshi正在预售中，无论你是否参加埃森展都可以预订。去看看吧，我也不知道。也许你会把这段剪下来放在节目开头。或者不放。

Yeah. And since I forgot to plug my bona fides at the beginning of the show because I'm a genius, you can find me at grandgamerskill.com where Kokeshi is on preorder, both if you are attending Essen or if you are not attending Essen. Check it out, and I don't know. Maybe you'll cut this and put it at the beginning of the episode. Or maybe not.

我们就顺其自然吧。我们能行的。不过，对Kokeshi绝对是大力支持。

We just let it flow. We can do it. But, yeah, big, huge green light for Kokeshi.

非常期待这个。我很感激。确实如此。

Definitely looking forward to this. I appreciate that. Certainly.

还有别的想聊聊的吗？

Got another one you wanna throw out there?

我有哦，当然。我想如果我们要往这个方向走，这可以作为我们的过渡话题。唯一...

Do I have oh, yeah. Absolutely. I I guess it could be our segue if we're gonna go this direction. The only

我们把那个留到最后再说吧。

We'll save that one for last.

留到最后？好吧。我还玩过些什么呢？

Save that one? Okay. What else have I played?

嗯，我们确实玩了几局波霸奇奇。

Well, we did do some boba kiki.

哦，对啊。废话。

Oh, yeah. Duh.

没错。发现我们几个想法完全不一致。

And Yep. Discovered that none of us think alike.

是啊。那简直太不可思议了。波霸奇奇最有趣的地方在于——它刚完成众筹交付，同时在我网站开放预售——我正在激发自己最佳的内置仿生状态。你最近还好吗？关于那些测试关卡...

Yeah. That was pretty incredible. So what was super interesting about boba kiki, which is just finished delivering to backers and is also on preorder at my website. I'm channeling my best inner bionic You're doing well? With all the ones.

是这样的。在开发收尾阶段，有个团队成员说'这游戏可能太简单了'，我顿时浑身发冷。要知道这种团体派对沟通类游戏绝不能毫无难度，那样就太糟糕了。

Well. Is when we were going through development and and wrapping things up, one of my team members said, I think this game might be too easy. And that chill of fear ran through my body. I was like, because, you know, you can't have this particular type of game where it's a group party communication game just be a cakewalk. That would suck.

没错。昨天我们充分证明了它并不简单。五人组队时可能彻底翻车——我们连玩两次第一关，结果连第二层都没通过，对吧？确实没有。

Right. Yesterday, we thoroughly proved that it is not too easy. You can get five people together and completely blow it. We did we played mission number one, and we didn't make it past level two of mission one either time, did we? No.

所以显然我们需要重新规划方案，再次掌握游戏精髓。

So clearly, we need to go back to the drawing board and and get back on top of it.

确实如此。在我们结束之前，我再提一个之前聊过的游戏。我和妻子玩了《Clank Catacombs》，而我最近刚开始接触《Clank》。

Definitely. One more game I talked about before we hit the last one. Sure. Played Clank Catacombs with my wife. And I had recently started playing Clank.

我下载了它的应用还是什么的玩了一下，感觉挺有意思的。这是我第一次玩《Catacombs》，算是《Clank》的改良版。你玩过其中任何一个吗？

I had gotten the app or whatever and played it, and it was cute. And so I had played this is the first time I played Catacombs, is kind of the improved version of Clank. Have you played either?

我玩过几个版本的《Clank》。但要说的是，我最后一次玩《Clank》的体验直接让它从黄灯变成了红灯——就是那个版本（记不清具体是哪个了），会发生完全不受你控制的事情。我进了一个房间后，房间突然翻转，我就被困在里面出不来。

I have played a few iterations of Clank. I will say that well, my last experience with Clank was it turned it turned it from a yellow light to a red light. It was the version of Clank where, I don't remember which one it is, but basically things happen that are totally out of your control. And I went into a room, and the room got turned, and I couldn't get out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时就想，好吧，这局游戏就这样了。现实如此嘛。当然如果你喜欢这种突发状况并想方设法继续游戏，那也挺好的。

I you know, I'm just like, okay. That's my game. I guess I'm done. And look, it is what it is. I guess if you love that opportunity and wanna figure a way out to do the rest of your game, that would be wonderful.

所以《Clank Majesty》这游戏对我来说没什么吸引力。

So the Clank Majesty just kinda bounces off of me.

我理解。确实能想象那种情况。《Catacombs》里也可能遇到类似问题，因为有卡牌会旋转你的板块...可能是板块的问题。唉，现在听着我都觉得难受了。

I hear you. I can see that. Yeah. I think at at the catacombs, you can end end up doing it because there's cards that'll rotate your It might have been the tile on there. So So well, I feel bad now.

但我确实很喜欢。没关系。

But I did enjoy it. That's okay.

看起来各有所好。每个人都有权利喜欢自己钟爱的事物。

They look different strokes, different folks. Everyone gets to love what they love.

是啊，确实如此。而且这是个运气成分很重的游戏。我的意思是，你要穿越地下城，虽然是个牌组构筑游戏，但你要不断深入地下城，时不时会有龙喷火，你就得抽出方块。

Yeah. That's true. And it is a pretty heavy luck game. I mean, you're you're going through a dungeon. It's a deck builder, but you're trying to get deeper into the dungeon, and every so often, the dragon's gonna breathe fire, so you pull cubes out.

如果你的方块被抽中，就会受到伤害。要是运气差到所有方块都被抽走，那你就直接完蛋了。没什么办法，真的无能为力。所以这游戏里运气占了很大比重。

And if your cube is pulled, you're gonna take damage. And if you just happen to be unlucky enough to get all those cubes, then you're you're stuck dead. Nothing a lot. Not a lot you can do about it. So so there is quite a bit of luck involved in the game.

但它很可爱也很有趣，而且不会拖得太久。我觉得游戏时长刚好。好吧，咱们来聊聊我们有分歧的话题吧。

But it's cute and it's fun and it doesn't outlast its its stay. It doesn't take too long, I don't think so. Alright. Well, let's talk about something we can't agree on.

好啊。不过请注意，我们不必达成一致。当然不必。当然不必。

Okay. So We don't have to agree, mind you. Of course not. Of course not.

只是当我实际盯着你看时，要持反对意见确实更难。我知道，这有点奇怪。

It's just harder to disagree when I'm actually staring you at I know. It is a little weird.

总之，是的。我想我们要聊的最后一款一起玩过的游戏，也是我们对话的过渡点，就是《庞贝城的陷落》。如果你对这个名字不熟悉，这款游戏以将米宝（或说是小人）扔进火山而闻名——至少在我们玩的版本里，它们其实是些六角形的小圆柱体。但这样的设计确实让人玩得很开心，非常酷。游戏的有趣之处在于它分为两个截然不同的阶段，由一个卡牌系统控制。开始时，你要用自己颜色的小圆柱在棋盘上布局。

So anyway, yeah. So the the I guess the last game we'll talk about that we played together, and that will be our sort of our segue for the conversation that we're gonna have is we played Downfall of Pompeii, which if you don't recognize by title, is the game that is famous for being the game where you throw meeples into the volcano, or you throw people into the volcano because at least from the version we played, they're actually just little hex cylinder type thing. So it's, you know but it is it is joyful in its implementation. It's really cool. So the game is interesting in the sense that it takes place in two pretty discrete halves that are governed by a deck of cards where you will begin by populating the board with your color of of cylinders.

这里有个有趣的转折点：你在棋盘上放置的己方单位越多，就越容易成为众矢之的；但同时你又需要尽可能多地占据棋盘，否则在游戏后半段就无法得分。这很有意思。随着游戏进行（同样由卡牌驱动），棋盘会逐渐被填满，直到某张卡牌出现，宣告火山即将喷发或已经开始喷发。

There's an interesting pivot point there because the more of yours that you get on the board, the bigger of a target you put on yourself, and yet, you need to be as present on the board as possible because otherwise, you will You will score points. You will not score points in the second half of the game. So that's interesting. And then as you do that, again, governed by a deck of cards, you will populate the board, but eventually a card comes out that says, okay, we're done here. The volcano is about to explode or is erupting.

这时所有人都会扔下手中的卡牌，开始争分夺秒地逃命。游戏随即转变为从庞贝城逃生的模式。希望我能描述清楚——城周围有许多出口门，你能移动的步数取决于你所在格子里的‘人’数（用‘人’这个词应该没问题）。

And everyone tosses their cars aside, and it's time to run for your life. Run for your lives. And then the whole game switches to getting out of the city of Pompeii. Now, hopefully I can describe this, but there are lots of gates around the city, and how many spaces you can move is governed by the number of People. People, I guess it's probably okay.

当你离开某个格子时，移动步数取决于该格子里的人数。这就形成了非常有趣的拉锯战：是把靠近出口的人先救出去，还是优先撤离那些被随机出现的熔岩威胁的人？熔岩会随机阻断道路。这种决策过程充满了精彩的博弈。另外，还要考虑在别人行动前，先把自己颜色的人从能让你获得多步移动优势的位置撤出——无论那个位置是否最有利于移动。

People in your square when you leave it. So there's a very interesting tug of war of getting people out who are near the gates versus getting people out who are threatened by lava, which comes up randomly, blocking things off. It was just it just is a really great tug of war in that decision. And also, getting your color person out of the place where you can make a lot of moves before somebody else does that, whether or not that's the one that is most advantageous to move. Right.

所以这确实是个绝妙的决策空间，叠加在原本就很有深度的‘如何布局人员’的决策层之上。是的，我觉得这些描述基本概括了《庞贝城的陷落》的核心玩法。如果我漏掉了什么细节，你们可以补充。

So, it really was a great decision space, after on top of already a great decision space, where I'm going to put my people. So, yeah, I think that does a fair job of capturing what downfall Pompeii is about. You can probably fill in some blanks if I missed anything.

对，对。我们稍后会讨论细节，但你漏掉了游戏最有趣的关键部分——哦当然，就是当有人被熔岩吞噬时，你真的可以亲手把他们捡起来扔进火山。

Yeah. Yeah. We'll get sort of into the details, but the one piece that you did miss, which is the key fun part of the game Oh, is yeah. Of course. When a person does get killed by the lava, you get to literally pick them up and throw them into the volcano.

没错。就是那个小塑料火山。我们玩的版本里，有人还在里面放了盏小茶灯，让这个环节更有趣了。

Yep. Yep. And it's just this little plastic volcano. The version we had, someone put a tea light in there, which made it even more fun.

一盏会变色的茶烛灯。

A color changing tea light.

那确实很酷。所以，对，就直接把它们扔进去。我是说，实际上你可以把它们放在旁边，但那样有什么乐趣呢？没错。而且这是一款老游戏，2004年2月出的。

So that was really cool. And so, yeah, just tossing them in there. I mean, realistically, you could put them off to the side, but where's the fun in that? Exactly. And so it it's it's a it's an older game, 02/2004.

2004年2月。当然，我刚把手机关了。所以我们马上就能确认。是的。

02/2004. Of course, I just turned my phone off. So I we we can confirm that in just a second. Yeah.

但这游戏真的很有趣。而且，你说得对，其中的决策空间很有意思。你要决定把手下的人放在哪里。游戏里有不同颜色的建筑。

But it is it is a lot of fun. And, yeah, you're right. The decision space there is really interesting. Putting the where you're placing your people. So there's different colored buildings in there.

你会拿到几张特定卡片。你要选择把手下放进哪栋建筑。但如你所说，如果在一个地方放太多人，后面就会变成熔岩磁铁。没错。最终得分取决于你成功从大门救出多少人。

You're gonna have a card for a specific handful of cards. You're gonna pick which building you put your person in. But as you said, if you put too many people in one place, that's just gonna be lava magnet for later on. Yes. And and your ultimate score is how many people you get out the gates.

这周末你玩了两次。我们玩了一次，我以前也玩过。它就是款简单有趣的游戏。

And so you played this twice this weekend. We played it once, and I played it back in the day as well. And I just it's a fun fun game.

是啊。大概一个月前上节目时，我提到玩过《Deus》这款同样出自2004年2月的游戏，里面有我从没见过的独特机制。当游戏行业不同角色的玩家交流时，总会问设计师一个问题：玩游戏时你能跳出设计思维纯粹享受游戏吗？你也可以把这个问题抛给我。

Yeah. So we when I was on the show probably a month ago now, I talked about having played Deus, which was a game that I also think was from 02/2004, and that had some really interesting mechanics that I've never seen replicated. And, you know, whenever there's a conversation going on among gamers who have different roles in the industry, the question always comes up for designers. Can you ever get out of your designer mode when you're playing a game and just play the game? And so you can, you know, toss that question to me as well.

你能从出版商模式中抽身吗？至少在这件事上我做不到，因为当我再次玩《Deus》时——体验很棒——但我曾说过它感觉像2004年2月的游戏，这非常奇特。我试图理解这一点，不知道该如何为现代更新这款游戏。它的机制深深根植于游戏玩法中，我不知道除了彻底重做外还能做什么。

Can you ever get out of publisher mode? And at least in this case, I couldn't because, you know, when I played Deus, again, great experience, but I had said that it felt like a game from 02/2004, and it's so peculiar because I I I tried to wrap my head around it. I don't know how you would up that update that game for modern times. The mechanics are so much ingrained in how that game plays out. I don't know what you could do without completely tearing it apart.

嗯。但当我们玩《庞贝末日》时，我的出版商思维开始活跃起来。尽管它很出色，我认为如果今天发布它，你会做些改动让它成为现代产品。这正是我们今天想讨论的。所以让我们——

Mhmm. But my publisher juices began to flow when we were playing Downfall of Pompeii, because as brilliant as it is, I think if you were to put it out today, there would be other things you would do to make it a modern production. And that is kind of what we wanted to talk about today. So let's

稍事休息。回来后我们将探讨如何让好作品变得更好。嘿，我是Eric。想告诉大家，自2020年起我们一直使用Zencastr进行录音，这对我们帮助巨大。它不仅能提供基础网站让你们相互连接沟通（像Zoom和Teams那样），还能将所有内容分轨录制，这对后期剪辑至关重要。

take a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about how we could make a good thing better. Hey. This is Eric. I just wanted to let you guys know that since 2020, we've been using Zencastr to do all of our recording, which has been a huge help to us because what it allows you to do is have your basic website where you can connect with one another and communicate with one another, you know, like your Zooms and your Teams, but it also records everything in a separate track, which is critical when editing time comes around.

所以，去试试Zencastr吧，网址zencastr.com。谢谢。好了，我们继续。

So, hey, I encourage you. Check out Zencastr, zencastr.com. Thanks. Alright. We're back.

我还是Eric，他仍是Mark。我们仍在讨论《庞贝末日》。在深入之前，我们将以此为例展示近二十年来游戏设计的演变，同时也会针对这款游戏的具体细节进行分析。

I'm still Eric. He's still Mark. We're still talking about the downfall downfall of Pompeii. Now before we dive deeper into this, we're gonna use this kind of as an example of just kind of showing you how game design has has evolved over the past twenty years or so. But we're also gonna take some specific examples about this particular game.

我想首先声明：这款游戏本身没有问题。没有任何地方会让你觉得‘唉，这真的很拖沓’。

And I wanna start off right at the beginning and say, there's nothing wrong with this game. There's nothing where you're kind of like, oh, man. This is really kind of a drag, I think.

我完全同意。如果这款游戏现在原样上市，绝对能作为入门游戏立足。虽然有些负面反馈机制，但除非老玩家联手针对你，否则不会毁掉你的游戏体验，也不会让你陷入无法挽回的颓势。整个游戏过程中充满欢乐与满足感，甚至包括将你的米宝小人扔进火山的黑色幽默。

I agree with you 100%. I think this game, if it came out on the market as is, would totally stand up as a gateway game. There is a little bit of negative reinforcement in it, but it's not nothing someone does, unless old table teams up on you, is gonna devastate your game and make you, you know, you're not gonna ever be in a downward spiral that is unrecoverable. Yeah. And there are just moments of joy and satisfaction throughout the entire experience, even the, bitter humor of having your meeple people person whatever thrown into the volcano.

确实如此。所以我认为这款游戏在机制上经得起时间的考验。是的。

Exactly. So I think this game stands the test of time mechanically. Yep.

但这并不意味着我们不能让它变得更好。

But that doesn't mean we couldn't make it better.

哦，或者说我们是这样认为的。或者说

Oh, or so we think. Or

我们是这样认为的。所以，是的，让我们来谈谈这个。首先，我们来讨论游戏前半部分，也就是你在棋盘上放置角色的阶段。好吗？

so we think. And and so yeah. So let's kinda talk about that. So let's talk first about the the first half of the game where you're placing people on the board. K?

棋盘最初是空的，你手上有一些卡片，标明你可以去哪些建筑。关于可以去哪里有一些稍微古怪的规则，因为有时一个建筑跨越多个格子，有时则不是。是的。我认为这是第一个可以给出提示的地方，我觉得这纯粹是平面设计的问题。

So the board starts out empty, and you have a handful of cards that indicate which buildings you can go. And there's some slightly quirky rules about where you can go, because sometimes a building is over multiple squares and sometimes it's not. Yes. And I think that's the first place that there could be just a hint, and I think this is just pure graphic design.

我正想说，我认为这是个平面设计问题。因为我觉得——而且我不是第一个这么说的人——艺术和平面设计已经进步了很多。再次强调，游戏完全可用，完全可以玩，而且100%有趣，但在那里可以有更多的清晰度。我在游戏后半部分教过你一个口诀，就是“格子不是建筑，建筑不是格子”。因为有些建筑占据多个格子，它们以一种稍微反直觉的方式相互叠加，当你

I was just about to say, I think that's a graphic design issue. Because I think and this is I'm not the first person to say this, but art and graphic design have come a long way. And, again, game's totally functional, completely playable, and a 100% enjoyable, but there could be more clarity there. There is a mantra that I taught you in the second half of the game, which is the the square or the building is not the square or the square is not the building. Because you have these buildings that take up multiple squares, and they sort of overlay one another in a way that is slightly counterintuitive when you

进入第二阶段时。没错。所以这些格子中的每一个都会有多个角色的空间。有时你可以把他们放在另一个格子里，有时不行。这取决于你有什么。是的。

enter the second half, second phase. Exactly. So each of these squares will have spaces for multiple people. And sometimes you can put them in another square, and sometimes you can't. It sort of depends on what you have to Yeah.

因此，我认为让这一点变得特别明显的方式会

And so some way to make that particularly obvious, I think, would

会大有帮助。没错。

be would be a big help. Right.

但现在让我们谈谈这个决策中的一些高明之处。因为如果你把一个人放在已经有人的建筑里，那么你就可以把你更多的人、你的家人安置在其他建筑里。所以这很重要，虽然有点像是在安全令牌上赌博——你会把一群人放在一栋建筑里，如果游戏后期那里被岩浆击中，他们就全军覆没了。所以这里有一种非常巧妙有趣的紧张感，我认为。

But now let's talk about some of the brilliance in this decision. Because if you put a person in a building where there's already a person, then you get to put more of your people, more of your family in other buildings. So it's important it's kinda but on a safe token, you're gonna put a bunch of people in one building, and if that gets hit by lava later on in the game, they're all wiped out. So that's a there's a really neat fun sort of tension there, I think.

没错。如果你把自己的人放在同一栋建筑里，甚至三个玩家在一栋建筑而第四个玩家不在，当他们有机会时，你猜岩浆会往哪里去。那种给他们应得惩罚的感觉，你知道，极其令人满足。

Right. If you put your own people in the same building or even if three players three players are in one building and a fourth player is not, guess where the lava's coming when they have the opportunity. It is immensely satisfying to to, you know, give them their comeuppance.

正是如此。这些人本身都是通用的。在我们玩的梅菲尔版本中，这些六边形的物件只是

Exactly. So the people themselves are all generic. They're just in in in the Mayfair version that we were playing there, these hexagonal things to

对，它们是六角柱体。没错。实际上它们和我用在《阿尔忒弥斯计划》中矿石的形状一样。

Yeah. They're hex cylinders. Yeah. Yeah. They're actually the same shape that I used for the ore in Artemis project.

是啊。对。没错。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

差不多二十年后。它们很出色，因为即使被撞倒也不会滚动。

Twenty years later almost. And they're brilliant because they don't roll if

是的，它们的组件就是这样的。不不不。但我认为在那个所有人都是相同的特定领域，还有改进的空间。

you knock them over. That's that's that's their components are Yep. A no no. So but I think there's there's room for some improvement in that particular area where all people are the same.

对。如果有人把这个交给我说‘进一步开发它’，而我远非开发者，但我想到了两点，既可以是机械性的也可以是启发性的。首先，许多听众可能熟悉《逃离亚特兰蒂斯》，它还有其他出版过的名字。但一个有趣的生存玩法是它有记忆组件——你的米宝底部有分数值。而你和完全不同的灾难...

Right. So one of the ideas that I had, if someone handed this to me and said, develop this further, and I am far from a developer, but two things came to mind, that would be both mechanical and or evocative. The first, many of the listeners out there are probably familiar with Escape from Atlantis, it also has some other names that have been published and republished and republished. But one of the interesting ways to play survive is that it has a memory component where your meeples have a point value on the bottom. And as you and totally different disasters.

一个是沉没的岛屿，另一个是逃离火山，但能量本质相同。所以想法是：能否在你家庭成员底部标注分数值，增加另一层策略——不仅要救人，还要考虑那些人的分数。老实说，这可能不是我会选择的玩法，但我知道有些人会对此产生共鸣。

One is a sinking island, the other is a escape from a volcano, but the energy is kind of the same. And so the idea is, could putting a point value on the bottom of your family, your people, add another layer to this, where it's not just the people you get out, but it's the point value on the bottom of those people. I'd be honest, that's probably not the way I would actually choose to play. But I know there are people out there for whom that would really ring a bell. Right.

他们会觉得‘这对我很重要’。我认为这是非常酷的附加层次。我知道我会把高分者放在门边，低分者靠近中心。但如果大家都知道这个策略，他们就变成了靶子。也许我愿意牺牲你...

They would be like, oh, well, this is important to me. I think that's a super cool extra layer to add on to this. And I want and I know, I am going to place my high value person near the door and my low value person more towards the center. But then, of course, those, if everyone knows that everyone's doing that, then then they really become a target. And maybe I am willing to sacrifice you.

假设你把6分放门边，我把1分放旁边。我不在乎牺牲我的1分。嗖——爱消失了，懂吗？

Let's say you put I know you put your six near the door, and maybe I stick my one next to it. I don't care about killing my one. Whoop. Love is gone. You you know?

这样就形成了多层思考：不仅要考虑如何让自己受益，还要预判你的行动，并抓住机会将其转化为我的优势。

So it becomes that layers of thinking about not just what I'm gonna do to benefit, but what I know you're gonna do to benefit, and how do I how do I bend that to my advantage when the opportunity arises.

对。对。

Yeah. Yeah.

没错。然后等到游戏结束时，我是说，我就这样玩过《生存》。记不清了

Yeah. And then, of course, by the time the game is over, I mean, I've played Survive in that way. Don't remember

你说得对。

You're right.

具体数值是多少。我会尽力试试，但确实。这种情况已经不止

What what the numbers are. I can do my best to try, but yeah. There's been more

一次了，我心想，哦，我的大家伙能活下来。结果翻开一看，他居然是个1点？是啊。

than one time, I'm like, oh, my big guy's making it. And then you flip him over like, he's a one? Yeah.

是啊。但另一个家伙在哪？什么？他就是那个

Yeah. But where's the other guy? What? He's the

被鲨鱼吃掉的倒霉蛋。

one that got eaten by the shark.

很多年前被鲨鱼吃了。是的。所以，嗯。那就继续吧。

Ate by a shark, many turns ago. Yes. So yeah. So go ahead.

不，不。我觉得这很有趣。而且这件事的美妙之处在于它完全是可选的，对吧？

No. No. I think that's interesting. And the beauty of that particular thing is that it's completely optional. Right?

如果你不想使用底部的那些点数，只想让每个人都作为一个点存在，这完全不会影响游戏。但如果你想添加这个选项，你也有这个选择权。

If you don't wanna use those points in the bottom, you just wanna have everyone be a point, it doesn't impact the game at all. But if you wanna add that, you have that option.

这是一种选择。这是玩家在‘我们如何玩这一关’层面的自主权，而非‘我们如何玩这个游戏’层面的。

It's a choice. It's it's player agency from a how are we gonna play this level, not how are we gonna playing the game level.

对，对。

Right. Right.

我另一个想法，这要回到你大约五分钟前说的那句话——你操控的队伍成员都是你颜色统一的普通圆柱体。抛开机制不谈，单从美学角度看，我觉得这在当今是站不住脚的。如果你试图众筹，而你的队伍是普通圆柱体，人们会想：‘下一个项目是什么？让我划过去看看。’所以我认为在重新呈现上有很大改进空间，只需让他们更具吸引力。

The other idea I had, and this goes back to the statement that you had made, I don't five minutes ago now, is that you are playing. Your your team of people are all generic cylinders of your color. And taking any mechanics out of it, aesthetically, I don't think that would hold mustard these days. If you tried to crowdfund and your team was generic cylinders, people are gonna be, oh, what's the next project? Let me scroll through So I think there's a lot of room for improvement in a re presentation in making them simply more attractive.

但随着思路深入，我又想：如果要改进外观，能否赋予其机制功能？然后我对自己说（虽然我不是历史学家，所以如果听众里有历史专家发现我完全错了，见面时请直接骂我）——当我想到庞贝城时，那里会有什么人？可能有政客、哲学家、士兵、平民、工匠等等。

But then as my brain began to spin further, I said, well, if you're gonna do that, could that have a mechanical function? And then I said to myself, and I'm no historian, so if you're a historian out there and I'm completely off, just yell at me when we meet in person. But when I think of Pompeii, who who would be in Pompeii? You can have politicians, philosophers, you could have soldiers, you could have commoners, you could have Artisans. Yeah.

工匠们。除了能在你的米宝上添加丝网印刷艺术外，这还能带来什么效果？你知道吗？比如当我放置一个士兵时，它能把别人推到另一个格子上。当我放置一个哲学家时，它又能产生其他效果。

Artisans. And what would aside from being able to add screen printed art to your meeples, what could that do? You know? You know, maybe when I place a soldier, it bumps someone else to a square. Maybe when I place a philosopher, it does something else.

我不确定。我还没设计好具体机制。

I don't know. I haven't worked out the mechanics.

对。

Right.

但令我印象深刻的是——由于游戏分为上下两个半场，不同的角色可能在两个半场拥有不同能力。比如政治家或社区领袖可以带人同行，毕竟他们本就是领导者。

But it strikes me that there is a and because the game is divided in two halves, it strikes me that the different roles might have powers in the two halves of the game. You know, I mean, maybe maybe maybe the politician or community leader can take someone with them. Oh, yeah. You know? Because they're a leader already.

我只是在即兴发挥。但我觉得增加这个层次会非常有趣。当然你也可以不采用——如果只想要精美艺术装饰的米宝，丝网印刷直接就能满足。

I don't I'm just I'm riffing here. But it just seemed to me that that would be a super interesting layer to add on. But again, you don't have to play with it. Right. If all you wanted was pretty art because your meeples were adorned with some screen printing, boom, there you go.

用我们常说的话就是：这完全是模块化的另一层次。对，对。

Another layer that is completely modular, I think we would say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

嗯。对此我有两个想法：第一点——也是我通常的思考方向——可以是玩家个人技能系统，对吧？

Yeah. So I've had two thoughts about this. Thought number one is, and this is where I usually always go, would be individual player powers. Right?

哦，是的。是的。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

完全正确。比如你发牌时，我可以选择特定类型的米宝或建筑之类的，这样我就能在其中做出不同的操作。嗯。就是这样。而另一个玩家则拥有另一类不同的能力。

Totally. So you deal out cards, so I a particular type of meeple or a particular type of building or something, I have the ability to do something different in one of those. Mhmm. That's And another player has a different type of ability along those lines.

顺着这个思路，虽然不算玩家能力，但可以设置秘密目标。比如，这本来是我接下来要说的方向。现在交给你继续发挥吧。

Going along with that, it's not really player powers, but you could have secret objectives. Like, maybe was where I was gonna go next. Then I'll let you take it away. Go for it.

因为当前游戏设计中反复出现的一个元素正是你提到的秘密目标。玩家拿到三四张卡牌，完成特定任务就能获得额外分数。

Because one of the things that seems to pop up a lot in game design now is exactly what you're talking about, secret objectives. You get three or four cards, and you get bonus points if you accomplish those kinds of things.

而且有四个人要出去

And it's four people out

东门之类的出口。

the East Gate something like that.

哦对。这是个特殊机制——我之前没想到这点。回到生存主题：棋盘有四个角落，你要把人送到那些岛屿上，岛屿本身不重要。但或许他们从哪个门离开才是关键？

Oh, yeah. That's that's a special thing is I didn't think about that because okay. So going back to survive, there are four corners of the board, and you get people to those islands, and the islands themselves don't matter. Right. But maybe there is something to what gate did they go out of?

或者也许每位离开的哲学家都能让我得分，即使不是我的哲学家。是的。你看，我需要在伤害玩家A和玩家B之间做出选择，而你的哲学家会成为——猜怎么着？A，你出局了，因为我想让埃里克的哲学家成功逃出城门。

Or maybe I get points for every philosopher that leaves, even they're not my philosophers. Yeah. You know, so I have a choice between, you know, hurting the other player A and other player B, and it would be your philosopher that would be, well, guess what? A, you're gone because I want Eric's philosopher to make it out the gate. Yeah.

对，对，对。我认为这里面确实存在相当大的决策空间，提供了各种可能性。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there actually is quite a lot of decision space in there for all sorts of opportunities.

没错。我喜欢秘密目标的一点是，它还能在游戏初期给你指明方向，特别是当你完全不知道该怎么办的时候。因为这款游戏最初的回合可能只是——比如，如果我手上有相关卡牌，我会试着找一座靠近城门的建筑。

Yeah. And what I what I the thing I like about secret objectives is it also gives you a direction to head at the beginning of the game if you really have no idea what to do. Because probably the first turns in this game are just sort of, I guess I'll try and find a building sort of close to a gate if I have a card for that,

确实如此。这种思考过程相当线性，对吧？你有一张卡牌或四张手牌，从15座建筑中挑选——具体数字记不清了。

you know Yeah. That's true. That that thought process is pretty linear, right? So you have a card or you have a hand of four cards. So you're you're out of 15 buildings, can't remember.

是的。你的目标——不，不是你的目标。你的选择范围已经缩小了。然后你会看，哪座建筑离城门最近？接着考虑，如何通过让更多家族成员上桌来获取额外优势？

Yeah. Your objective I'm not your objective. Your opportunities are already narrowed. And then you look at, okay, what's closest to a gate? And then you look at, well, okay, what can I capitalize on by getting additional family members on the board?

但如果用那些目标来打乱这种线性思维，我觉得会很有趣。

But if you had those objectives to confound that thinking, I think it'd be interesting.

确实如此。这就引出了一个问题：多少才算过量？我认为这正是需要你戴上设计师帽子的时候，因为等我们谈完，恐怕会给《庞贝的陷落》加上16个新模块。

It would be. So that leads me to the question of when is too much too much? And I think this is really where the designer hat comes on in your end because, you know, by the time you and I are done with this conversation, we will have 16 modules that we can now add to the downfall of Pompe.

当然。绝对没问题。

Sure. Absolutely.

我们真的需要16个模块吗？是的。

Do we truly need 16 modules? Yeah.

我的意思是，正如我几分钟前所说，庞贝末日这款游戏的优势之一在于它是一款绝佳的入门游戏。我认为你可以让任何人坐下来玩这款游戏，他们都能很快理解游戏规则。可能难度略高一点点。但说实话，如果你能玩卡坦岛，能玩卡卡颂，能玩车票之旅，那你肯定也能轻松上手庞贝末日。这些都是备受赞誉的入门级桌游。

I mean, I think one of the strengths of Downfall of Pompeii, as I said a few minutes ago, is that it is an excellent gateway game. I think you could sit down anyone to play this game, and they would get what's going on fairly immediately. I mean, maybe a quarter step above. But honestly, if you could play Catan, if you could play Carcasson, if you could play Ticket to Ride, you could easily play Downfall of Pompeii. And those are all well lauded gateway games.

而且这个

And this

在概念上解释起来要容易得多。

is so much easier to explain conceptually.

对吧？确实如此。真的。

Right? Actually, yeah. Really is.

而且你要想办法让人们逃离那里。

And you're trying to get people out of there.

是的，确实如此。我是说，游戏讲述的故事与游戏机制结合得非常好。但你说得对。

Yep. Yep. It it it really does. I mean, the story that the game tells really does couple well with the mechanics. But you're right.

如果你把这些内容一股脑全加进去，然后说这就是新游戏，那会太过头了。我觉得它会失去一些作为易上手游戏所具有的魅力和魔力。但如果以模块化的方式加入，你就可以在不同层次上体验游戏。绝对是这样。

If you add this stuff on and and you you just dumped it all in there and said, here's the new game, it would be too much. I think it would lose some of the charm and magic that it has as being so accessible. Yeah. But if you include it as something that's modular, then you could play the game at multiple levels. Definitely.

你知道，我现在可以和我的继子女们一起玩，他们分别是13岁、10岁和8岁。但除了可能在米宝上画些漂亮图案外，我不认为他们能理解那些额外内容，同时还能玩得开心。

You know, I mean, right now, I could play it with my my step kids, you know, which are 13, 10, and eight. But I don't think other than the pretty art that we could perhaps put on the meeples that it would they'd be able to incorporate those other things and still have as good a time.

是啊。现在我们还没谈到游戏的后半部分，而且我绝对不想...

Yeah. Now I don't wanna we we haven't touched the second half of the game, and I definitely don't wanna

哦，当然。完全理解。

Oh, sure. Absolutely.

忘了那个吧。但我正在尝试更抽象地思考...

Forget that. But I'm I'm trying to get a little more abstract and thinking

没关系。知道吗？让我先打断你一下。我想到另一点——这需要一些我无法理解的数学计算，但总有聪明人能搞定——就是现在你们只有一张地图。

That's okay. You know what? Let me interrupt you real quick. Okay. Another thing that I thought about, which would require some measure of math that I don't have the ability to comprehend, but there are smart people out here who do, is right now you have a single map.

所以问题就变成了，那块板子的背面还有空间。是否还存在另一张能做出有趣决策的地图？这个问题的答案显然是肯定的。嗯。关键在于实现它，然后判断，这真的有趣吗？

So the question becomes, you have a whole backside of that board. Is there another map with interesting decisions that could be made? And the answer to that question is obviously yes. Mhmm. It's implementing that and then saying, is this actually interesting?

它为体验增添价值了吗？你知道，这才是悬而未决的问题。

It add to the experience? That, you know, that is the question hanging in the air.

是的。这款游戏设计的一个优点在于，作为玩家你永远不会经历两次相同的体验。对吧？你永远不会说，好吧，我总是选择建造10号建筑，因为你知道，我的策略就是10号建筑是取胜之道或诸如此类，因为你可能根本拿不到10号建筑。

Yeah. So one of the nice things about the game design is that you're never going to have the same experience twice as a player. Right? You're never gonna say, alright. I always go for building number 10 because that's you know, my strategy has been that building 10 is the way to win or whatever because you may not get building 10.

实际情况并非如此运作。

It doesn't really work that way.

对。所以我认为这是输入随机性。对吧？是的。没错。

Right. So I think it's input randomness. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

你拿到的那手牌，以及你如何打出这些牌。

That hand of cards you're dealt and then how you execute those cards.

是的。那么我对模块化设计有个小疑问。总的来说。让我举个例子，《炸弹拆除者》。

Yeah. So here's here's my mild issue with the module idea Okay. In general. So let me give you an example. Bombbusters.

艾米和我都喜欢玩《炸弹爆破手》。游戏自带60多个不同的场景，我们目前完成了大约20个。当我们想向新玩家介绍这款游戏时，该选哪个场景、哪种设置、哪个模块呢？对吧？

Amy and I love playing Bombbusters. So the game comes with 60 some odd different scenarios. We've made it up to 20 or so. So when we wanna introduce Bombbusters to new players, I which scenario, which settings, which module do we use. Right?

查看后发现前七八个是教程关卡，所以我通常直接跳到第八关。然后我们可以从那里开始逐步深入，但这确实是个额外的步骤。真正让我深刻体会到这点的游戏是《深谷酒馆》。你玩过吗？

And looking at it, the first seven or eight are tutorials, so I usually just go straight to eight. And then we can start maybe building up from there, But it is an additional step. And the one game that really hammered this home for me was Taverns of Tiefenthal. Have you ever played that?

很久以前玩过一次。哦对，就是那款自带所有扩展包的游戏。没错，那些扩展大大增加了复杂度。

I have played it once quite a while ago. Oh, yeah. That was the one that came with all those expansions Exactly. That amped up the complexity.

是的。它配备了大概六到八个扩展，说明书会说这是基础游戏，而基础版说实话有点平淡。但当你开始添加扩展时，游戏就变得有趣多了。可问题在于：该在哪个阶段停下来？

Yes. And so it came with yeah. Six or eight, and it says, like, here's the base game, and base game's honestly kind of blah. But then when you start adding those, it becomes much more interesting. But where do you stop?

你如何判断多少才算是恰到好处？

How do you decide what how much is enough?

什么是过犹不及呢，埃里克？

What's too much of a good thing, Eric?

完全正确。当然，这取决于你的玩家群体。但这就是我们在面对这些扩展模块时的困扰——比如玩《奎德林堡的庸医》时，我们该选用哪些配料？

That's exactly that's exactly right. And, course, it's gonna depend on on your group of players. But that that is the struggle I have when we get these modules. It's like, oh, we're playing Quacks of Quedlinburg. Which of the which of the ingredients do we wanna use?

就像，我们总是用同样的玩法，因为那些是我们习惯的方式，即使其他玩法可能更有趣，我们也得重新思考游戏策略。虽然这在现代桌游中很常见，但如何设计战役系统或模块选项之类的东西确实是个挑战。我最大的困扰是，如何为当下选择最佳体验——该启用哪些机制，又该关闭哪些。

Like, oh, we always use the same ones because those are the ones that we're kind of used to, and we'd have to rethink of how we play the game even though the other ones may or may not be more fun. So while it's truly what we see a lot of in modern board games, there's all of these things that they're just how to have either a campaign type system or a module options and stuff. The one struggle I have is trying to figure out what is the the best experience for this time, you know, which which switches to turn on and which ones to turn off.

是啊，我能理解。我敢说设计师——天知道他叫什么，都20年了——他可能有一半的创意被当初的发行商否决了。他们说'不，这就是我们的目标受众'，然后把其他想法都扫进了废纸堆。

Yeah. I can I can see that? And then there's probably, you know, I'm sure the designer, who who knows, his name is 20 years old, he may have, you know, half of the things sitting in the wings that the publisher who put it out way back when never wanted to implement. They said, no. This is the audience we're going for and swept the rest of that stuff away.

没错，梅菲尔公司（Mayfair）当初发行时肯定就是这么想的。他们至少是第二家出版商，我记不清最初是谁了。

Well, yeah. Certainly certainly, Mayfair. I'm sure that's exactly what they were looking for when they published it this time. And they were at least the second publisher. I can't remember who originally.

有意思。

Interesting.

我觉得是他们，也可能记错了。

I think they were. I could be wrong.

我不确定...正在查资料，但二十年实在太久了，我可能没法很快找到答案。

I I don't know. I'm looking at It is twenty years long. But I'm not sure I can get there fast enough.

所以...确实很有趣。现在我们来聊聊游戏后半段——这部分是伪随机触发的，你知道它会出现在牌堆较深的位置，但具体时机无法预测。

So Yeah. So that that is interesting. So another thing to talk about so now let's talk about the second half of the game. So the second half of the game happens pseudo randomly. You know it's gonna be reasonably deep into the deck, but you don't know when.

火山即将喷发。届时，任何未放置的玩家将被淘汰出局，只有留在棋盘上的人继续游戏。你将抽取板块，岩浆会从五六个喷发点涌出，每次放置板块时它会沿正交方向缓慢蔓延。若岩浆触及玩家，该玩家即被淘汰；或者你可以设法封锁出口等。你需要将自己的族人移出大门，每次选择两人移动，其移动步数等于所在建筑内的人数。

The volcano is going to erupt. And at that point, anybody who didn't place is out of the game, and it's only who's on the board, and you're gonna draw tiles, and there's five or six places where the lava erupts, and it just moves, kinda creeps along orthogonally each time you place a tile. And if it touches somebody, they're out, or you can potentially block off exits and that kind of stuff. So you are going to be moving your people out the gates, and the number of spaces you pick two people to move. The number of spaces they move is equal to the number of people in their building.

比如现在，若建筑里有三人，我就能让这个人移动三步。下个移动者时建筑只剩两人，所以他们只能移动两步。我认为这是个绝妙而有趣的艰难抉择——由于移动步数限制，经常会出现族人最终停在距大门一步之遥或正对大门的情况。是的。这部分决策，当然还包括岩浆放置位置和针对目标的选择。

So right now, if there's three people in the building, I can move this person three spaces. The next person to move, there's only two left in the building, so they can move two spaces. And that, I think, is a brilliant and fun tough decision because the number of people that end one space outside of the gate or in front of the gate, I should say, because of the number of spaces they can move is it it happens a lot. Yes. And so that that part and those decisions, and of course, where to put the lava and who to who to talk about.

但总体而言，现代游戏通常没有'我要直接攻击你'的设定。而在这款游戏里，你真的会直接打击别人——我要在这里放个板块，可能影响两三个玩家，然后我们就会把他们...

But generally speaking, modern games do not have the, I am going to directly strike you. And in this game, you are literally going to directly strike somebody. I'm gonna put a tile in there, and there could be two, three, one, and then we're picking them up,

我们会把他们钩进火山里。不过这是有限制的，不能随意放置岩浆。确实如此。棋盘被划分得很好，岩浆板块上有符号标记，你抽取的岩浆板块必须正交相邻放置。

and we're hooking them into the hooking them into the volcano. But but it there is limits on that. You don't just pull lava and put it anywhere. True. It there the board is divided well, there are symbols on the lava tiles, and the lava tile you pick has to be placed orthogonally adjacent.

所以不能随便乱放，比如我不能一直针对埃里克反复熔毁他，无论抽到什么板块都追杀他。要知道最多只有四个放置选择，因为方块有四条边。除非目标区域无人，否则你总得淘汰某个玩家。

So you can't just randomly throw it down, and I'm just gonna I'm gonna melt you over and over, Eric, and and decimate no matter what I pull. So, you know, at most, you'd have four choices of where to put a lava because there are four sides to a square. And you're gonna have to wipe unless no one's there, you're gonna have to wipe someone out.

没错。有时甚至可能是你自己的人。这正是我想强调的——我认为这款游戏设计精妙之处在于，它从不会让人感觉是款'针对性打击'游戏。

Exactly. And sometimes it's your own. And that that that is what I wanted to touch on. One of things I think is smart about this game is that it never feels like a take that game. No.

确实不会。首先它有点像《宇宙碰撞》，你通过抽取决定攻击目标。所以不是我的错——看，我抽到了宝石或石柱之类的标记，只能放在这些位置，抱歉啦。

It really doesn't. Because first of all, it's kinda like cosmic encounter where you draw who you're going to attack. So it's not my fault. Look, I drew the gem or the column or whatever, so I've gotta put it in one of these places. Sorry.

你才是那个会被核平的人。没错。

You're the one that's gonna get nuked. Yeah.

如果你的米宝在那个格子里，你显然不会把它放那儿。对吧。我是说，除非——我是说，如果别人在那里放了两个，你可能就消灭了他们。这可能是个诱人的决定，但在我们的游戏里完全没出现这种情况，我觉得。

And if your meeple is in that space, you're obviously not putting it there. Right. I mean, unless I mean, I guess you wiped out someone else if they had two in there. That might be a juicy decision, but we didn't see that happen at all, I don't think, in our game.

是啊。感觉这不是那种会出现这种情况的游戏，虽然比分咬得很紧。我是说，它们

Yeah. It's it doesn't feel like the kind of game where, you know, that's gonna be although the scores are pretty tight. I mean, they're

对。我们分数非常接近。

Yeah. We were very close together.

没错。另外就是你们有很多人。所以损失一两个甚至三个都不是世界末日。不算重大挫折。所以我觉得他们做得很好——我是说，理论上这里存在玩家淘汰机制，但实际并没有。

Yeah. And the other thing is is you have a lot of people. So losing one or two or three is Not the end the world. Is not a not a huge setback. And so I think they do a really good job of I mean, potentially, there's player elimination here, but not really.

你会淘汰掉一些人。

You're gonna get some people out.

是啊。不过说实话，我玩的第一局里，有人比我提前很久就退出了，他们算是自我淘汰。比如，游戏还在继续时。

Yeah. I mean, but honestly, in the first game I played, there were people who made it out well before I did, and they sort of they self eliminated. Like, game was still going.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

是的。但他们表现得很出色。所以他们是主动退出，而非因为被彻底击败而被迫出局。

Yeah. But they had they had done well. So it was they self eliminated in a positive way, not not because they got all all wiped off the board and Right. Lost.

对。回到设计师视角，我们当然讨论过单个米宝角色可以拥有特定能力，比如士兵可能移动更快或能穿越某些地形。

Yeah. So back to designer hat. We, of course, talked about individual meeples, they could certainly have certain abilities, like maybe soldiers could move faster or through

没错。我考虑过运动员角色。或许运动员能额外多移动一格。

Yeah. I thought about an athlete. Yeah. I mean, maybe an athlete gets an extra space that they can move.

是的。

Right.

这也会给地图设计带来有趣的变数。

Which would also have interesting implications for the map.

总之继续吧。我觉得很有意思，当时在想比如老年人角色，比方说老奶奶。

Anyway, carry on. And I just I found it interesting. I was thinking of, like, an older person. Right? Grandma.

对吧？但如果奶奶能带着儿子或女儿之类的逃出来，就能得很多分。对吧？但她每次只能移动一半的格子。有意思。

Right? But grandma's worth a bunch of points if she makes it out with, like, a son or a daughter or something. Right? But she only moves half as many spaces. Interesting.

所以确实。因为说实话，我觉得决定什么时候移动谁，比一开始决定把谁放在哪里更难抉择。

And and so yeah. Because, honestly, trying to decide who to move when is, I feel, a harder choice than trying to decide who to put where at the first half

哦，你刚想到个有趣的点子。比如，你可以

of the Oh, you just had an interesting idea. Like, you could

养只宠物。哦，对。

have a pet. Oh, yes.

你知道，就像，天哪，那个消防员游戏叫啥来着——

You know, like, you and just like, oh my gosh, what's that firefighting The

消防员游戏。对。

firefighting game. Right.

《闪点行动》。《闪点行动：火线救援》。谢了，我总算想起来了。

Flashpoint. Flashpoint. Fire rescue. Thank you. I could think

的

of the

救援词。我想不起其他的了。情感上这会让游戏多大程度偏向救出你的宠物？你懂吗？这完全是另一回事。

rescue word. I couldn't think of the others. How much emotionally would that bend the game to getting your pet out? You know? And that is a whole other thing.

就像你说的，奶奶，也许奶奶需要有人陪伴。奶奶一次只能移动一格。明白吗？是的。也许，我不知道，也许猫会做些别的什么。

Like you said, grandma, maybe grandma has to be accompanied. Grandma can only move one space. You know? Yep. Maybe, I don't know, maybe the cat, I don't know, does something else.

但无论如何，你知道每个人都想救出自己的猫。没错。所以这会是另一个有趣的想法。

But but anyway, but you know everyone's gonna wanna get their cat out. Exactly. So that would another interesting idea.

对。对。对。我稍微多想了想，就是给米宝棋子赋予个性化特征。比如给它们命名之类的，它们就不再只是一张卡片或八角形木块，而更像是弗拉维乌斯家族的一部分。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just I thought about this a little bit more is is personalizing the meeples in some way. If they were just named, for instance, or something along those lines, they become less a card or a octagonal piece of wood and more, you know, part of the Flavius family or whatever.

哦，没错。绝对是这样。就像我们玩《执迷》时，你有一个家族，还有名字。

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, just like when we played obsession Yes. You had you had a family. It had a name.

我不确定那些名字是完全虚构还是部分基于历史，但它们都有身份标识。总之，完全可以这么做。

I mean, I don't know if it was all fake or partially based in history, but they all had identities. You know? So, anyway, all all yeah. Totally could.

是的。而且我认为这更多体现了现代美学趋势，我们开始围绕游戏构建更多故事背景。我是说，这款游戏的剧情丰富程度令人惊讶，但你知道，你们正在加入更多叙事元素。要让它真正成为现代游戏，唯一欠缺的就是用拟人化动物替代人类角色。就是这样。

Yeah. And again, I think this is more of that modern aesthetic where we're starting to put a lot more story around. I mean, there is a surprising amount of story around this game, but, you know, you're starting to put some more story. The only thing that's left to make it truly a modern game is to use anthropomorphic animals instead of people. There you go.

那么你脑海中还闪现过哪些想法？我再次感受到逃生机制已经足够紧凑，没有太多调整空间。不过可以加入些趣味元素，比如特殊事件之类的。

So what other thoughts just kind of bounce off the top of your head? Again, I feel the the escaping is tight enough that there's not a lot of tweaking. There's some fun things you could do, special events and stuff.

没错。你看，我们讨论过，我玩过两次，在脑海里反复推敲多次。当然还有更多设计空间可以探索，但这可能更适合真正擅长此道的人。我常开玩笑说，我会打电话给我的开发人员，联系合作的设计师，然后说'我有个想法'。

Yep. I I you know, we've talked, you know, having played it twice, having rolled this over in my head multiple times, you know, I'm sure there's more design space that could be played with, but that is probably for someone who is actually good at that stuff. And, you know, I often I joke. I will call up my developer. I'll call up a designer I'm working with, and I'll say, I have an idea.

我会接着说'我知道你们听到这句话时可能直翻白眼'。我经常抛出各种随机想法，有些被采纳了，有些没有。但我觉得作为发行商，我的职责就是推动游戏朝我想要的方向发展，至于能否实现，可能受限于数学逻辑，或是'嘿这个我们试过了，不符合现有方向'等等。所以目前看来，我们给游戏叠加的这些修饰层已经足够了。

And I I I say, I know you probably roll your eyes when I say that. And I throw out a lot of random ideas, and some have gotten implemented and some have not. But I feel like that's my job as a publisher is to push a game in a direction I want it to go, and then it may or may not be able to be realized because the math doesn't work or, you know, hey, we already tried this and it, you know, doesn't fit with the direction we've already taken it or whatever the case may be. So no. I think I think the coats of paint we've layered on this stand for now.

没错。让我们回到节目早期你提到的观点，关于《Deus》难以现代化的原因——其机制与游戏本身结合得太紧密。这很有趣，因为我们常傲慢地认为总能改进，对吧？

Yeah. So let's let's jump back to something you said earlier in the show about how Deus, you you couldn't quite figure a way to modernize it because the mechanics were so tightly entwined with the game itself. Yeah. And and I find that interesting because the the the arrogant thought is that we can always improve. Right?

嗯。但有时候可能并非如此。也许这就是它最终极的形态了。

Mhmm. But there is a point where maybe not. Maybe this is the epitome of what this is going to be.

但你也可以想象，《Deus》最初可能是个混乱的雏形，嗯...带着三种多余机制。优秀设计师常说，关键不是添加机制改变游戏，而是精简剔除。所以我推测，在设计史的长河中，它最初可能包含更多元素。

But you can also you can also imagine though that maybe Deus started out as a hot mess with Uh-huh. Three more mechanics. And a lot of good designers say it's not about throwing in a mechanic to change the game. It's about pulling it out and paring down. So I could see a situation, you know, casting my brain back into the annals of design where there was more.

它被不断精简再精简，最终呈现的Dais产品——即市面上那款游戏——就是这一过程的产物。尽管我说过它确实显得有些过时，但或许还存在一些设计空间。事实上，我几乎没再思考过《Deus》，也只玩过那么一次。不过你知道，这可以留给其他设计团队，或者等我有机会再玩时，我的大脑或许会开始琢磨这个问题。

And it got paired down and paired down and paired down, and the dais product that exists, the game that's out there, is that result. And even though I had said that it does feel a little dated, there's probably some design space. And the truth is I haven't spent hardly any more time thinking about Deus and only ever played it the one time. But, you know, that's for, you know, another design team, or maybe my brain can start monkeying on that when I play have the opportunity to

再玩一次。这引发了个有趣的思考，这是个相当抽象的哲学概念。就像在音乐和电影中，常有复古风格的作品——比如刻意营造不同年代或流派的感觉。但在桌游领域，我不确定我们是否有这种怀旧情怀。

play it again. So that brings up sort of an interesting thought, and this is just a really abstract philosophical concept. So, like, in music and in movies, there's often, like, a throwback type feel. Like, oh, we're gonna make this feel like a different style or a different genre or something like that. But in board games, I don't know I don't know that we have that nostalgia feel.

对吧？比如制作一款感觉像来自九十年代的游戏，但实际上它是当代作品。

Right? Like, I'm gonna make a game that feels like it was from the nineties, but really, it's from today.

我觉得情况恰恰相反。我们有像Restoration Games这样的公司致力于现代化改造。我是说...听着，确实存在一些经典佳作，嗯。

Well, I think we have the opposite. We have Restoration Games who, you know, tries to modernize everything. I I mean, I don't think there's look. Look. There are some gems, Mhmm.

我们可以列举一堆例子，但没必要。部分原因是这很主观——每个人心中都有自己的珍宝，那些完美到不容更改的存在。

And we could go through a list of them. I don't think that's necessary. And partly because everyone's subjective. Everyone has their own gems. Things that are just perfect and you wouldn't change.

不过总体而言，大家普遍认同桌游几乎在所有方面都进步了。这既因为竞争加剧——不够优秀就无法存活，作品根本得不到出版；也因为受众需求随时间发生了多维度的演变，现在桌游已有各种细分类型来吸引不同玩家群体。

But, yeah, I mean, I think everyone though universally agrees that games have almost unconditionally improved in every way, partly just because there's more competition, and if you don't get better, you're not gonna survive. Your game simply won't get published. But the audience has bent and changed over time in so many ways that, I mean, there are, you know, genres within board gaming, you know, that appeal to different types of people.

没错。那么最后一个问题（再次戴上设计师帽子）：是改良一款优秀但有缺陷的游戏更好，还是优化本已优秀的游戏更佳？就像我们讨论过的《庞贝末日》——它本身不错，但我们或许能做得更好，或者说更现代化可能是更准确的说法。

Yeah. So then the last one, again, designer hat on, is it better to take a good but flawed game and improve it or take a good game and improve it? Right? So we talked about downfall Pompeii being fine. We could just potentially make it better or at least more modern is probably a better way to think.

是的。更现代的想法是，我感觉像是现代意义上的

Yeah. Think more modern is I'm feeling like the modern sense of

但还有一些游戏，它们几乎就要成功了。如果他们早知道我们现在所知道的，我们真的可以把这打造成脱颖而出的东西。

But then there's other games where, like, oh, they're almost there. If they had only known what we know now, we could really make this into something that would stand out.

我不确定我准备好回答这个问题了。我想这些天，当我——我之前也说过——当我接手一个原型时，我会告诉设计师，你必须认为这已经完成了，而你会是错的。嗯。

I don't know that I'm prepared to answer that question. It's a I think so these days, when I and I've said this before. When I take k. I will play a prototype, and I will tell the designer, you have to think this is done, and you will be wrong. Mhmm.

因为我过去常说80%，剩下的我们会搞定，但现在我不认为这还管用了。竞争太激烈了。你知道，有无数出版商在寻找游戏，也有无数设计师有游戏要提交。而那些被出版的，多到你一年都玩不完。

Because I used to say 80%, and and we'll get it the rest of the way, and I just don't think that works anymore. There's too much competition. There's both, you know, there's a million publishers looking for games. There's a million designers that have games to submit. And the ones that get published, there are more than you can play in a year.

嗯。所以这与十年前的世界不同了。对我来说，80%已经不够了。我需要玩的是一个功能齐全但仍不完美的游戏。我是说，我想——

Mhmm. So it is a different world than it was a decade ago. For me, 80% doesn't cut it. I need to be playing a full on functioning game that's still not perfect. I mean, I guess

它可能会改进。会有变化发生。

it might It will be improved. There will be changes made.

是的。我是说，除非游戏在机制上单一到像，比如Stroop（嗯哼）。它就是那样。所有东西都在那儿了。我不知道你还能对Stroop做什么不同的改动。

Yeah. I mean, unless the game is so mechanically one note that like, for instance, Stroop Uh-huh. It is what it is. Everything is there. I don't know what you would do different to Stroop.

但你知道吗？可能有个设计师会想，我明白了。我能想出办法来打乱这个局面。但在斯特鲁普只有一个机械师。那就不是原来的样子了。

But you know what? There's probably a designer out there who's like, I got that. I can figure out what we could do to throw a wrench in this. But there's a single mechanic in Stroop. Wouldn't be what it is.

总之，我现在有点跑题了。

Anyway, I'm rambling now.

简而言之，这真的取决于具体情况。

The short answer is it's really, it just depends.

我认为这要看情况。但关键在于打磨掉那些粗糙的边缘。正是那些最后的百分比决定了奇迹的发生。这既是最困难的部分，也是决定一切成败的关键。所以有趣的部分来了。

I think it depends. But it is sanding off those rough edges. It's that those final percentages that are that's where the magic happens. It is both the most difficult part, and it is where it'll all come together or it won't. So here's the funny part.

最后

At the end

经过我们所有的讨论，我们提出了大约五到十个改进这个游戏的想法。所以，理论上我们可以设计所有这些方案，看看它们的效果，但现实是，我们会筛选掉其中一些。对吧，它们不会全部保留。所以我很好奇这个回溯过程会走多远。

of all of our discussion here, we've come up with, you know, five or 10 different ideas to improve this game. So, potentially, we design all of them. We see what they're like, but then, realistically, we're we're gonna gonna pull some of those ideas out. Right. They're not gonna so I'm just curious how far it goes back.

就像，哦，我们有这些人物、能力和目标，还有特殊技能。然后你会觉得，这个其实只是增加了复杂度而没有实质内容，所以我们会把那部分去掉。

It's like, oh, we have these peoples and powers and objectives and, you know, special abilities. You're like, well, this really just adds complexity without adding funds, so we'll take that piece out.

好吧，你看，你正在解锁Kickstarter的延伸目标，但你永远不会真的去实现。确实如此。确实如此。只要加个广告，你就能堆起高过头顶的盒子，却永远玩不完。你会在拆开第二个盒子前就把它们卖掉。没错。

Well, look, you're unlocking Kickstarter stretch goals, you never go That's true. That's true. Just just add an ad, and you have boxes as high as your head, and you're never actually gonna play it all. You'll sell it before you break the shrink on box number two. That's right.

我们要加入

We're gonna add

在5万美元级别增加一个火山喷发音效芯片，然后

a a volcano erupting noise chip at the $50,000 level and

正是。你会得到一瓶健怡可乐和一包曼妥思。这太搞笑了。

Exactly. You get you get a a a bottle of Diet Coke and a pack of Mentos. That's funny.

我们达到了10万美元。别忘了那个超大号的起始玩家标记。

We hit a $100,000. Don't forget the oversized starter player token.

是的。是的。好吧，我对此感到内疚。

Yes. Yes. Well, I'm guilty of that.

不，不。它们很有趣。我很享受。太棒了。

No. No. They're fun. I enjoyed it. So awesome.

那么，还有其他想法吗？我们刚才在讨论一款具体的游戏，但这更像是一个思维实验，探讨如何对现有游戏进行现代化改造，并观察其中的差异。对此还有什么总结性想法吗？

Well, any other any other thoughts? So we were talking about a specific game, but, again, this is more of a thought exercise of what you can do with an existing game to sort of modernize it and sort of see what the differences are. Any other closing thoughts on this?

我想是的。作为一个行业，我们确实痴迷于新事物。身为出版商，我正是靠这种对新事物的追捧生存的，对吧？

I I guess if I yeah. So we are, as an industry, a cult of the new. I am a publisher. I survive on the cult of the new. Right?

我接下来要说的。其实开场时我就提到过。但我认为在BGG排名250到1000之间，有大量值得重新发现的优秀游戏。看看前100名——我这是随口一说——但其中99%可能都...等等99%可能夸张了。

The next thing that I'm doing. I started out this conversation talking about it. But I think there are an amazing number of games that hover on BGG rankings between two fifty and a thousand that deserve to be rediscovered. If you look at the top 100, I and I'm shooting from the hip here. But I would say 99% of them well, would mean 99 So percent of maybe that's too much.

前100名里大概有90款是近五年推出的。我不清楚BGG的算法机制。但我很幸运地发掘过一些真正的瑰宝，因为我有游戏资历比我深得多的朋友，这些游戏就静静躺在他们的架子上。确实如此。

90 out of 100 of them probably came out in the past five years. I don't know how the BGG algorithm works. I do, however, know that I have been lucky enough to uncover some really amazing gems, because I have friends whose gaming history goes back much further than mine, and they have them sitting on their shelves. Yeah. Yeah.

没错。你说得对。

Yeah. Yeah. And you're right.

我是说，当你深入研究那些排名三四百名的游戏时，会发现其中有些惊艳之作，只是由于种种原因没能获得足够的...那种神秘的成功要素

I mean, you get into some of those three, four, 500 ranking games, and they're just some amazing games that just for whatever reason didn't hit enough of the whatever the magic sauce

正是如此。

is Right.

弹跳起来。但我的意思是，那是我大部分游戏、大部分玩法所在的地方

To to bounce up. But, I mean, that's where most of my game that's where most of my playing lives is in

正是如此。就在

that Exactly. Is in

那个区域。

that area.

可悲的是，我认为问题可能出在广告预算上。那是他们的致命弱点——小出版商没有足够的资金投入更多广告。

And sadly, I would say it's probably advertising budget. That was that was their their Achilles heel It's was the thus the little bitty publisher didn't have the budget to throw more into advertising.

是啊。这绝对值得改天专门讨论。我在担任起源奖卡牌游戏评委时，常看到一些品质优秀的卡牌游戏，但我知道它们永远不会赢——不是因为质量，而是因为知名度太低，而半数选票来自公众投票。嗯。

Yeah. Which which is a fantastic topic to cover at a at another day. I mean, when I was on the Origins award jury for card games, I would see these card games that were really good, but I was like, they're never gonna win. Not because of the quality, but because nobody's heard of them and half the votes is a public vote or whatever. Mhmm.

或者由零售商决定。这个奖项的机制本就是如此设计的。

Or the retailers are gonna do it. I mean, it's the way the award was designed.

没错。我记得早年这个奖项确实是由零售商主导评选的。所以

Yeah. I remember way back when it used to be a retailer driven award. And so

确实如此。当时有一群人，包括我在内，还有几位评委，他们说：好了，这里有150款游戏。选出你们的前十名。每个人都这么做了，然后他们进行了筛选。

So there was yeah. So there was a group of people, myself included, there were judges, and they say, alright. Here's a box of a 150 games. Tell us your top 10. Everyone did that, and so they filtered down.

这是前十名。接着他们去找零售商说：好了，这前十名中哪些应该进入前五？零售商会选出他们的前五名，然后公众会说：好了，这是每个类别中可供投票的前五名，可想而知，最终只有知名度最高的那个才能赢得这个奖项。

Here's the top 10. Then they go to retailers and say, alright. Which of these top 10 should be the top five? And the retailers will pick their top five, and then the public says, alright. Here's the top five to vote for in each of these categories, which, as you can imagine, means only the one that has the most recognition is going to win these this award.

是啊。我总会为其中一些卡牌游戏感到惋惜，因为有些真的非常有趣。我们现在还在玩。但这些公司已经不存在了——虽然起源奖并非生死攸关的荣誉，但它确实是个例子……

Yeah. And I would always feel sorry for some of these cards because on some of these games are so much fun. We still play them. The companies don't exist anymore because I mean, and not that the Origins Award is a make or break kind of thing, but it's an example of

没错。这显然是个筛选漏斗。对吧？是的。

Yeah. Of course. It it's a funnel. Right? Yeah.

最终只有少数能通过这个漏斗。

And only a few things end up making it through the funnel.

正是。所以关键提示当然是让游戏在入门级推荐里被提到。

Exactly. So the hint, of course, is to make it be mentioned in onboard games.

完全正确。这才是制胜关键。我提到过Kokesshi了吗？Kokesshi。老实说，

Absolutely. That is the clincher. Did I talk about Kokesshi yet? Kokesshi. Honestly,

我知道我知道我们到了，但我超爱这游戏。我很兴奋。说实话，要排队等第一波才能拿到，这让我挺失望的。

I know I know we're there, but I love this game. I am excited. I'm honestly disappointed that I have to wait to q one to to get it, to be honest with you.

物流可能会变吧，不过...大概率不会。我是说，要加急提前送过来的成本太高了

Well, logistics might change. I mean, but but probably not. I mean, just the cost to rush it here sooner

不，我理解的。

is No. I understand.

我懂。太难受了。

I understand. Devastating.

但还是很棒。马克，能和你一起玩真是太开心了。我知道，这辈子第二次了。我懂的。

But awesome. Well, Mark, I'm so glad we got to be together, play together. I know. Second time in this life. I know.

超兴奋。其实是第三次，因为我们最早在西行极客大会上见过。

Exciting. Third time because we first met at Geek Way to the West.

真的吗？抱歉我完全忘了这事。好吧，这辈子第三次见面了。

Did we really? Oh, I apologize. I totally forgot about that. Okay. Third time in this life.

所以这对我很重要。可能对你来说就没那么重要了。

So it was important to me. It probably was not as important to you.

我是埃里克·杜威，这位是Grand Gamers Guild的马克·斯佩克特。您正在收听的是《桌游时光》。

Well, I'm Eric Dewey. And I'm Mark Spector of Grand Gamers Guild. And you've been listening to Onboard Games.

本期《桌游时光》就到这里。如果您喜欢我们的节目，欢迎加入我们在Board Game Geek的公会。您可以在Facebook点赞，Twitter关注，通过board game links联系我们，在iTunes给我们五星好评，或在patreon.com/obg赞助我们。想参与节目录制？请尽早联系我们提出话题建议，我们的档期很快就会排满。

That's it for this episode of Onboard Games. If you enjoy Onboard Games, join our guild on Board Game Geek. You can like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, us on board game links, give us a five star review on iTunes, or patronize us at patreon.com/obg. Wanna be on the show? Please be in touch with the topic ideas far in advance as possible as our schedule does fill up.

您可以

You can

访问inversegenius.com了解更多关于《桌游时光》播客的信息。欢迎将问题、意见或调侃邮件发送至onboardgamesmailbag@gmail.com。本节目采用知识共享署名-非商业性使用-禁止演绎4.0国际许可协议进行授权。谢谢。

find out more about the Onboard Games podcast at inversegenius.com. Email us questions, comments, or snide remarks @onboardgamesmailbagatGmail.com. Onboard Games is licensed under creative comments attribution noncommercial no derivative works four point o international license. Thanks.

我是埃里克·杜威，这位是Grand Gamers Guild的马克·斯佩克特。您正在收听的是

Well, I'm Eric Dewey, and I'm Mark Spector of Grand Gamers Guild. And you've been listening to

《桌游时光》。看，当我们面对面时，居然能异口同声说出来，这对我们来说可是稀罕事。

onboard games. See, when we're face to face, we can actually say it at the same time, which is a rarity for us.