安德鲁·休伯曼：改变你健康的简单习惯

去做的事情。

to do.

有一件事我们所有人都受制于，我不想说是被奴役，因为它其实是一种恩赐，那就是昼夜节律。

One thing we are all, I don't want to say enslaved, because it's actually a gift, is the circadian rhythm.

这一点怎么强调都不为过。

I mean, cannot emphasize this enough.

是的，确实有夜猫子型的人，祝福他们。

Yes, there are night owls, and bless them.

是的，也有早起型的人，他们想凌晨四五点就起床。

Yes, there are morning people who want to wake up at four or 5AM.

但大多数人都介于两者之间，从统计上看是这样。

Most people are somewhere in between, just statistically.

但没有人能逃脱昼夜节律的要求。

But no one escapes the demands of circadian rhythm.

在二十四小时的周期里，某些时间点你的认知能力会更好。

Your cognition is going to be better at certain points in the twenty four hour cycle.

你的睡眠质量会更好。

Your ability to sleep is better.

你保持冷静、倾听、善待自己、以平和友善的方式过滤世界上的事情，同时又能意识到世界正在发生什么的能力。

Your ability to be calm, to listen, to be kind to yourself, to filter the world's events in ways that are peaceful and kind to yourself, but also aware of what's going on in the world.

所有这些，对每个人来说，在早上8点、晚上8点和凌晨3点都是不一样的。

All of that is different at 8AM versus 8PM versus 3AM for everybody.

所以，我认为最重要的事情，是那些顺应我们自然节律的事情。

So the most important things, I believe, are the things that take our natural rhythm.

皮质醇会升高。

There's going to be an elevation in cortisol.

把它安排在你一天中较早的时间。

Make it in the early part of your day.

理想情况下，把它和光照联系起来。

Ideally, tether it to light.

最好是阳光。

Ideally, sunlight.

把它和运动结合起来。

Tether it to movement.

我非常相信早晨冥想的好处。

I'm a big believer in morning meditation.

我也非常相信晚上的祈祷、冥想，或者做深呼吸长呼气。

I'm a big believer in nighttime prayer, or meditation, or long exhale breathing.

你知道，这取决于个人对这些事情的看法，但我每晚睡前都会祈祷。

You know, it depends on one's orientation towards those things, but I pray every night before I go to sleep.

为什么？

Why?

嗯，这是我真正相信的事情，并且已经成为我的核心习惯。

Well, that's something that I really believe in and has become a core practice for me.

安德鲁，你祈祷什么？

What do you pray for, Andrew?

对我来说，这是一个现实，那就是我们是一个非常了不起的物种。

For me is a is a reality, which is that we're we're an amazing species.

人类真的很了不起。

Humans are amazing.

狗也很了不起。

Dogs are amazing.

所有这些物种都很神奇。

All these amazing species.

人类是一个了不起的物种。

Humans are an amazing species.

我们能发展各种技术，能发展复杂的语言，但我到50岁才明白这个道理，这本身也挺神奇的。

We can develop all these technologies, we can develop sophisticated language, but I came to this clarity at 50, which is kind of amazing.

花了这么长时间，但你知道，我有时候就是有点迟钝，我觉得世界上很多问题，很多对我来说有挑战的事情，其实都是人类本质的一部分。

Took me this long, but you know, I'm like, you know, I suffer from this, like, thick skull sometimes, that a lot of the problems we see in the world, a lot of the things that have been challenging for me, they're central to being human.

我没有放弃世界和平的可能性。

I'm not giving up on the possibility of world peace.

我没有放弃人类真正进化到能对自己和他人更好的可能性。

I'm not giving up on the possibility of people really humans evolving to a place where we truly can be better to ourselves and others.

但如果我们看看历史，再看看我们现在的情况，很多时候我们可能会说，这不过是同样的事情换了个版本，一遍又一遍地重复。

But if we look at history, and we look at where we are now, in many ways we could say, well this is just a different version of the same thing, over and over.

我不得不接受，我们不会变成另一种物种。

And I had to just accept that we're not going to turn into a different species.

我开始认真思考一个问题：我希望世界和我自己拥有的那些答案，会不会来自非人类的来源。

And I started really pondering the question of whether the answers to all the things that I wish for the world and for myself would come from nonhuman sources.

我相信上帝，我一直都相信上帝，所以我决定真正投入到祈祷的实践中去。

And I believe in God, I've always believed in God, and I decided to really lean into a prayer practice.

所以我开始每晚祈祷，每晚都祈祷。

So I started praying every night, every night.

我从来没有错过一个晚上。

I have not missed a night.

如果我有时候在楼下沙发上睡着了，或者什么的，我会从床上起来，或者从沙发上起来，在上床之前祈祷，我也会为别人祈祷。

If I fall asleep some, you know, downstairs on the couch, or something, I get out of bed, or off the couch, and I pray before I get into bed, and I pray for others.

我为我生活中的人祈祷。

I pray for the people in my life.

我为世界祈祷。

I pray for the world.

我也会为那些和我有过矛盾的人祈祷，这确实不容易。

I do the, what admittedly can be hard work, of praying for people that I've had challenges with.

我祈祷我和他们的关系能变好。

I pray for my relationship to them.

在祈祷中，我真心想把我的意愿交给上帝，交给那些我无法控制、也不认为人类能真正解决的力量，让一切在内外都变得正确。

In that prayer, I really try and give over my will to make things right, internally and externally, to God, to the forces in the universe that are outside my control, and that I don't think any humans can really solve.

我来这里之前也祈祷了。

And I prayed before I came in here.

每次录播客之前我都会祈祷。

I prayed before every podcast.

我是个相信科学的人。

I'm a man of science.

我相信科学。

I believe in science.

我相信科学方法。

I believe in the scientific method.

你知道，我相信进化生物学。

I believe, you know, in evolutionary biology.

是的。

I do.

但我也相信有上帝，而且人类能量中有一个方面，如果我们向它敞开，就能让我们成为物种的最佳版本。

But I also believe that there is a God, and that there is an aspect of the energy of humans, that if we open up to that, can allow us to be the best version of our species.

我明白宗教是个复杂的话题，因为它一直是而且继续是人类分裂和伤害彼此的方式，同时也是拥抱和帮助彼此的方式。

Now I realize religion is a complicated one, because it has been and continues to be ways that humans divide, and harm one another, as well as embrace, and help one another.

但我觉得我来到这个世界上，是为了学习和传播关于健康和幸福的知识，但我不认为我能做到最好，除非我把一部分交给上帝。

But I think that I'm in this body to try and learn and spread knowledge for health and for well-being, but I don't think that I can do the best job at that unless I turn some of it over to God.

我会告诉你是什么让我有了这个认识，那就是我理解认知、意志、成瘾、睡眠和自主神经系统的生物学。

And I'll tell you what brought me to this realization, which was I understand the biology of cognition, volition, addiction, sleep, autonomic nervous system.

我的意思是，我教授和学习这些东西，我经营实验室多年，而且当人们努力以某种方式改变他们的想法或行为时，会发生一些奇怪的事情。

I mean, I teach and learn this stuff, I ran a lab for many years, and there's this bizarre thing that happens when people are struggling to change their thoughts or behavior in some way.

尽管他们拥有世界上所有的知识和支持，他们还是做不到。

And despite all the knowledge in the world, all the support in the world, they can't do it.

然后你观察到，如果他们把这个过程交给某种更高的力量，有时候他们称之为“更高力量”，就像十二步法里说的，或者他们直接把它交给上帝，或者他们松开油门和方向盘。

And then you observe that if they give that process over to, sometimes they call it higher power, like in 12 step, or sometimes they'll just give it over to God, or they'll take their hands off the throttle and the steering wheel.

他们居然就能做到那件事了。

They are somehow able to accomplish that thing.

这完全说不通。

Now it makes no sense.

这实际上和我们所了解的前额叶皮层以及冲动行为控制的一切完全相反。我从未见过它失败，无论是我自己还是别人身上。

It actually goes completely counter current with everything we understand about the prefrontal cortex, and control of impulsive behavior, And I've never seen it fail, in myself or in others.

最近，我去了斯坦福，因为我在南加州和北加州之间来回跑。Veritas小组，那是一个校园里的基督教团体，邀请我去谈谈满足感，以及什么能带来真正的满足感。

And recently, I was up at Stanford, because I split my time between Southern And Northern California, and the Veritas group, which is an on campus, they happen to a Christian group, asked me to come talk about satisfaction and what leads to real life satisfaction.

我的意思是，它不限于某个教派，但Veritas大概就是那样开始的。

I mean, it's it's not denominational, but that's sort of where Veritas got started.

有趣的是，我仍然是斯坦福的终身教授。

And it was so interesting because here I am on my still a tenured professor at Stanford.

我是在自己的主场。

I'm on my home court.

我在那里谈论上帝。

I'm there talking about God.

我在这方面没有受过教育，而我在跟，你知道，我一开始就说，我确信这个房间里有很多人比我更了解圣经和上帝。

I have I'm not educated in this realm, and I'm talking to, you know I said I started off by saying, I'm certain this room is filled with people that are far more knowledgeable about the Bible and God than I am.

但我能告诉你的只是，祷告的实践从根本上改变了我思考的能力，让我感到平静，做出更好的决定，看到世界上那些美好的方面，那些显然一直存在但我之前错过的方面，以更多的欣赏来看待同胞，我愿意认为那是善意和宽恕，而我们认为这起作用的大多数方式，直接与神经科学、心理学及其正式学术文献相悖。

But all I can tell you is that a prayer practice has fundamentally changed my ability to think, to feel peaceful, to make better decisions, to see aspects of the world that are beautiful, that clearly were there before, that I was missing, to look at fellow humans with more appreciation, and I like to think kindness and forgiveness, and most of the ways in which we think that works run it directly against neuroscience and psychology and their formal academic, you know, literatures.

然而，我仍然相信这一切。

And yet, still believe in all of that as well.

我的意思是，用两个字来说，它有效。

I mean, in two words, it works.

它如何起作用仍然是个谜，但我认为，尽管如此，活在信仰的问题中，甚至活在信仰中，是一件极其强大的事情。

How it works is still mysterious, and I think, nonetheless, I I think it's an extremely powerful thing to live in the question of faith, or maybe even in faith.

而两年前，即使我在做这件事，我也说不出这样的话。

And two years ago, I couldn't say this even though I was doing it.

我当时太害怕了。

I was too scared.

我想，哦，没人会再把我当科学家看了。

I thought, oh, no one will take me seriously as a scientist anymore.

听着，如果有人想坐下来，我们聊四个小时，从分子层面到电路层面，再到心理层面，我都能聊。

Listen, if if someone wants to sit down and we have a four hour conversation about everything from, you know, molecular level up to circuit level and psychologically, like, I can do that.

我绝不是所有这些领域的专家，但我一直耳濡目染。

I'm by no means an expert in all those areas, but I've been surrounded by them.

我的神经外科医生朋友，尤其是那些我认识的、非常出色的脑科医生，他们会告诉你，对大脑的理解肯定不止教科书上那些。

My friends who are neurosurgeons, especially the the physicians that I know who are exceptional, who work on the brain, they'll tell you there's got to be something else beyond just the textbook understanding of the brain.

肯定还有别的。

There has to be.

那你怎么知道呢？

So how do you know?

他们说，因为他们亲手接触过人的大脑，见过那些化学物质和脑组织，但他们确实见过一些令人惊叹的事情。

And they say, because they've got their hands in people's brains seeing and working with the the chemicals and the meat of it, but they've just seen some astonishing things.

他们确实见过一些悲剧，但更多的是他们称之为奇迹的事情。

They've seen certainly tragedy in some cases, but what they describe as miracles.

作为一个热爱知识、充满好奇心的人，我一直听到那个低语，然后变成了轻敲，再后来就是推了一把，就像在说，咱们开始吧。

So, as a curious person who loves knowledge, I just kept hearing the whisper, and then there was a tap, and then it was a little bit of a shove, like like, let's do this.

让我们去探索它。

Let's explore it.

但我说“开始吧”的意思是，我是在探索。

But when I say let's do this, I mean, I'm I'm exploring.

我和其他人一样。

I'm like anyone else.

有些日子和夜晚，我会想，天哪，也许这一切都是我自己的想象。

There are nights and days where I go, god, maybe this is all in my head.

也许我……然后我对自己说，好吧。

Maybe I'm and I and I say, okay.

那我就继续做下去吧。

Well, I'm just gonna keep doing it.

就像坚持一个很难完成的学术项目一样，也像坚持健身计划一样，即使有时候很难，也会继续下去。

The same way one would continue with an academic program that was difficult to get to the end, the same way that one would continue with a fitness program except on on days when it's difficult.

对。

Yeah.

所以请原谅我，不。

So forgive me for No.

接受那个不。

Taking that No.

我的意思是，晚上我会调暗灯光，尽量不多喝水，也尽量不在太晚的时候喝咖啡，尽管我很喜欢下午的咖啡。

I mean, and I dim the lights in the evening, and I try not to, you know, hydrate too much, try not to drink caffeine too late in the day, even though I love an afternoon coffee.

我有一半阿根廷血统，我们喜欢下午的咖啡。

I'm half Argentine, we love our afternoon coffee.

我尽量不因为白天看到的事情而生气。

I try and not get aggravated by things I see in the world late in the day.

我真的努力把低压力的事情带回家。

I I really try and bring the low cortisol themes to my home.

我和我的伴侣，她，你知道，她真的很擅长把气氛降下来，做所有这些事情，我也跟着学。

My partner and I, she, you know, she's really good about, like like like bringing the tone down and and and all of that, and I try I follow suit.

睡前的这个祈祷练习让我的梦，我的生活都平静多了。

This prayer practice before sleep has my my dreams, my life is so much more peaceful.

如果不提的话，感觉有点过意不去。大家可能也听得出来，我还是有点不自在，因为我不是，你知道，我不是到处引用圣经经文的人。

It just feels remiss if I didn't talk about There's still, as people can probably detect, a little awkwardness because I'm not, you know, I'm not running around quoting bible passages.

除了确信那里有什么东西之外，我什么都不确定。

I'm not certain about anything except that there's something there.

而祈祷确实从根本上让我的生活变得更好了。

And the fact that prayer has fundamentally transformed my life for the better.

听你这么说，我觉得这凸显了我们作为人类都面临的挑战，就是那种二元对立，非此即彼，要么是上帝，要么是科学，对吧。

To me, listening to you say that highlights the challenge that we all have as humans again, which is that battle of the binary, and that either or so it's like it's either God or it's science Mhmm.

要么是灵性，要么是科学。

Or it's spirituality or it's science.

我几乎觉得我们所有的问题都源于此。

And I almost feel like that's where all of our problems come from.

所有的

All of

我们人类的问题，几乎根源就在于我们相信只能二选一。

our human problems almost the origin is because we believe there can only be one or the other.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我笑是因为《神经元》杂志上发表了一篇很棒的文章，这是一本自出版期刊，质量很高，它基本上证明了当人们验证自己的信念时，会有强烈的多巴胺释放和强化，这是一种奖励机制。

I'm chuckling because there's this really wonderful paper that was published in Neuron, which is a self press journal, it's a really fine journal, that basically shows that there's a really strong dopamine release and reinforcement, a reward for validating one's own beliefs.

这解释了很多世界上的事情。

Explains a lot about the world.

看到这样的结果，很容易变得愤世嫉俗。

And it's very easy to get cynical when one sees that sort of result.

实际上，我觉得世界上很多现象，尤其是在网上，都可以解释为人们为了获得某种满足感而相信某些东西。

In fact, think a lot of the world can be explained, especially online, by people believing things in order to feel some way that's satisfying to them.

奇怪的是，有时是为了让自己感觉不好。

And oddly, to not feel good.

你懂吗？

You know?

我觉得大多数人上网并不是为了告诉自己，我想感觉好一点，所以我要上网。

I don't think most people are going online telling me, I want to feel good, and so I'm going go online.

我觉得人们是被迫去那里的，网上确实有很棒的事情发生，包括播客，还有新的信息，有时候新闻也很棒，我们需要保持信息灵通。

I think people were compelled to go there, and wonderful things happen online, including podcasts, and new and sometimes the news is wonderful, we need to stay informed.

但人脑似乎有这样一个特点，科学在20世纪60年代和70年代就证实了这一点。有个叫罗伯特·希思的人，他因为与专业无关的原因而备受争议，但他作为神经外科医生做的这些实验非常有启发性，也很重要。他让人们按下按钮，刺激大脑的不同区域。

But there seems to be this aspect to the human brain that actually science backs up in the 1960s and 70s, a guy named Robert Heath, a controversial scientist for unrelated reasons to his expertise, but he did these experiments as a neurosurgeon that were very informative and important nonetheless, which was he allowed people to press buttons which would stimulate different areas of their brain.

有些区域让他们感到兴奋，有些区域让他们感觉像喝醉了，有些区域让他们感到性唤起，有些区域让他们感到饥饿，还有些区域让他们感到满足。

Some areas made them feel giddy, other areas drunk, other areas they would feel aroused, other areas they'd feel hungry, other areas they'd feel sated.

人们最喜欢按的那个区域，警告一下，这可能会让一些人失望，就是丘脑的中央正中核，也就是中线丘脑，这个区域让他们感到轻微的沮丧和愤怒。

The number one area that people preferred to lever press for, warning, this is going to discourage some people, was the central median nucleus of the thalamus, midline thalamus, that made them feel mild frustration and anger.

人们从那种兴奋中感受到强化，但这并不等同于喜欢它。

People feel reinforcement from that arousal, which is not the same thing as liking it.

我觉得没人喜欢感到沮丧，也没人喜欢感到愤怒。

I don't think anyone likes to feel frustrated, or likes to feel angry.

但关于大脑，人们最需要了解的神经科学要点之一就是，“强化”比“奖励”这个词更准确。

But one of the most important things about neuroscience that people should know about their brains is that reinforcement is a more useful term than reward.

对。

Mhmm.

你想想多巴胺奖励。

You think about dopamine rewards.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

多巴胺系统及相关系统的作用是强化，是增加某些行为发生的可能性。

The dopamine system and related systems are there to reinforce, to strengthen the likelihood that certain behaviors occur.

对。

Mhmm.

而且这不一定总是关乎快感。

And it's not always about pleasure.

对。

Mhmm.

这是我们这个物种很难接受的一件事。

This is a tough thing to accept about our species.

确实很难接受。

It's a really tough one.

因为如果你给其他任何动物，比如老鼠或狗，一个刺激大脑的机会，它们不会这么做。

Because if you give any other sort of animal, a mouse or a dog, the opportunity to stimulate their brain, this is not what they do.

对。

Mhmm.

它们追求的是快感。

They go for pleasure.

人类，不管出于什么原因，也许是因为我们需要贴近自然的边缘，感受寒冷的痛苦，感受饥饿的痛苦，而我们这个物种天生就有能力去开发技术来克服这些。

Humans, for whatever reason, and perhaps it's the fact that we need to lean up against the edges of nature, and feel the pain of cold, feel the pain of famine, and our species is uniquely gifted to develop technologies to overcome those.

也许我们需要感受到这种挫败感。

Maybe we need to feel this frustration.

这种感受被强化了，然后我们就去制造工具来克服寒冷、克服饥饿，等等。

It's reinforced, and then we go build tools to overcome cold, to overcome hunger, and so on.

人们喜欢感到被激活，即使那种激活的感觉很糟糕。

People like to feel activated, even if the activation feels lousy.

是的。

Yes.

我们必须理解这一点。

We have to understand this.

我们必须承认这一点。

We have to acknowledge this.

因为一旦你理解了，你就会意识到，让我们回到早晨的例行公事。

Because once you do, you realize, let's take it back to the morning routine.

有些日子我醒来，借用安迪·斯坦普夫的话说，他本身也是个了不起的人，前一级作战人员，非常令人敬佩。

I can wake up some days, and to borrow a phrase from Andy Stumpf, who's a remarkable person in his own right, a former tier one operator, he's a very impressive person.

他说，你知道，有时候你醒来，脑子里就像发生了一场革命。

He says, you know, sometimes you wake up and there's a revolution in your mind.

你不想做这个。

You don't want to do this.

你不想做那个。

You don't want to do that.

一切都显得让人不知所措。

It all seems overwhelming.

你累了。

You're tired.

那你该怎么办呢？

And what do you do with that?

很容易就滑入沮丧和愤怒的沟壑，就像，哎呀，我不想做这个，或者犯懒。

It's so easy to slide down the into the trench of frustration and anger, and like, oh, I don't wanna do this, or lazy.

有些日子我们确实需要那样，但大多数时候，我们需要起床，晒晒太阳，做做冥想，喝喝水。

And some days we need to do that, but most days we need to get up, get our sunlight, do our meditation, drink water.

我们必须对抗这个中线丘脑核。

We have to fight this midline thalamic nucleus.

这就像，我们怎么在不用负面情绪的情况下对抗它呢？

It's like trying to and how do we fight it without negative arousal?

大多数人都知道怎么为他们的孩子去战斗。

Most people know how to They fight know how to fight for their kids.

他们知道怎么为他们的政党去战斗。

They know how to fight for their political party.

但你怎么为自己争取呢？

But how do you advocate for yourself?

你怎么产生积极的兴奋感呢？

How do you generate positive arousal?

兴奋这个词也有点麻烦，因为人们一听到这个词，马上就会想到浪漫或性方面的兴奋。

The word arousal is a little tricky too, because it meet people immediately default to romantic sexual arousal.

但所谓的兴奋，其实就是我们想要振作起来的倾向。

But arousal is just our tendency to feel up.

活着。

Alive.

对。

Yeah.

活着并且振作起来。

Alive and up.

既然我们知道自己有强烈的倾向去往更阴暗的地方，那我们要怎么才能做到这一点呢？

How do we access that, knowing that there's this strong bias towards going into darker places?

我觉得关键，嗯，杰伊，你在这方面比我懂得多得多，我觉得关键就在于早期的冥想、感恩，以及意识到尽管我们的大脑和物种如此美妙，我们都有点疯狂。

I think the key, I mean, you know far more about this than I do, Jay, I think the key lies in that early meditation, in gratitude, in realizing that as beautiful as our brains and our species are, we're all a little crazy.

对吧？

Right?

我们都有这种强烈的倾向，容易感到沮丧，并且渴望那种对我们自己或对世界都不好的、不断强化的兴奋感。

We all have this strong bias toward feeling frustration and wanting this reinforced arousal that isn't good for us or for the world.

如果我们能承认这一点，还有狗和猫——至少最近我也接受了猫进入我的生活，你知道吗？

And if we just can acknowledge that, and the fact that dogs, and cats, at least days I've accepted cats into my life too, you know?

我不知道它们体验什么，但直觉告诉我，因为它们没有发展出工具的复杂能力，也不会像我们那样思考未来并围绕未来组织行动，我觉得它们就是默认选择更少的摩擦。

I don't know what they experience, but something tells me because they lack the sophistication to develop tools, and think about the future, and organize around it in ways similar to us, I think they just default to less they want less friction.

我认为摩擦在我们进化轨迹中是一个重要的杠杆。

I think the friction was an important lever in our evolutionary trajectory.

如果集体意识要出现一个大的转折点，那将来自于承认我们是一个了不起的物种。

If there's going to be a big inflection in, quote unquote, collective consciousness, it's going come from acknowledging we're an amazing species.

我们也是一个有缺陷的物种。

We are also a flawed species.

我们甚至不用考虑宗教意义上的缺陷，尽管那可能与此相关。

Let's even forget the notions of flawed in religious context, although that might have relevance here.

我们是有缺陷的。

We're flawed.

我们的大脑布线有时对我们自己和他人并不太好。

Our brain wiring ain't great for us and others sometimes.

但如果我们知道这一点，我们就超越了它。

But if we know it, we're above it.

如果我们超越了它，我们就能做出更好的决定。

If we're above it, we can make better decisions.

如果我们能做出更好的决定，那我确实认为我们人类能够达到一个境界，就是能对自己的心理运作方式之疯狂一笑置之，从而更好地利用它们的积极面。

If we can make better decisions, then I do think our species can get to a place where we just kind of laugh about how insane our mental workings are, so that we can lean into their positive aspects.

我真的认为这是可能的，但这需要那种只有通过自我意识才能获得的宁静，而自我意识又只能通过呼吸、通过静下来才能获得。

I really think this is possible, but it requires that stillness that only comes through self awareness, which only comes through the breath, from being still.

你在这方面已经做了很久了，你也谈过这个。

You have been doing that for a long time, you've talked about it.

我觉得很长一段时间里，我都以为冥想就是降低皮质醇、改善睡眠、提高心率变异性，以及不那么容易反应过度。

I think for the longest time I thought, great, meditation's a way to lower cortisol, sleep better at night, increase one's heart rate variability, and not be as reactive.

不错，不错，不错。

Cool, cool, cool.

也许如果我练得够久，还能进入新的意识层面，比如在大苏尔那种地方练的话。

Maybe even access new realms of consciousness if I do it long enough, and I do it in Big Sur or something.

我觉得更深层的意义在于，承认自己需要它。

I think the deeper piece here is the acknowledgment that comes from, I need this.

对。

Yeah.

这应该成为我们人类的一种必需。

This should be a requirement for our species.

但我们人类还有一个特点，就是不喜欢被人指挥。

But another feature of our species, we don't like to be told what to do.

想让一个人永远不坚持健康习惯，最好的办法就是告诉他必须做。

Best way to get somebody to never do a health practice is tell them they have to do it.

人类的一个美好之处在于，我们喜欢争取对自己思想的独立。

One of the beautiful aspects of humans is we like to fight our independence over our mind.

对。

Yeah.

没有人愿意被控制。

Nobody wants to be controlled.

对。

Yeah.

这是件好事。

That's a great thing.

所以我不知道，我经常思考这些，但早上我不会让自己陷入思想的革命，因为到了50岁，我可以告诉你，我在那里度过了太多早晨，太多夜晚，我觉得需要悲伤的时候悲伤很重要。

So I don't know, I think about this stuff a lot, but I don't let myself go into a revolution in my mind in the morning, Because as at 50, I can tell you I've spent too many mornings there, too many nights there, and I think it's important to grieve when one needs to grieve.

我觉得需要愤怒的时候愤怒很重要。

I think it's important to be angry when one needs to feel angry.

但我在这一切之上，加上了一种非常深的接受，那就是我们的大脑有这种特性。

But I put all that on top of a really deep acceptance that our brain has this feature.

感觉像是个缺陷，但我觉得它只是个特性。

Feels like a flaw, but I think it's just a feature.

对你说的几点有些反思，讨论很精彩，能和你聊这些真的很吸引人，但首先关于冥想，我们以为冥想是为了平静，但实际上我们需要冥想是为了不打扰别人。

Few reflections on what you're saying, fascinating discussion, and you know, so gripping to even get to talk about this with you, but first thing on the meditation piece, was thinking, we think we meditate so that we can be peaceful, but actually we need to meditate so that we don't disturb anyone else.

当你意识到这一点，冥想是为了获得更多的优雅和慈悲，它是调谐到那个储备中，这样我们就能成为慈悲的溪流、河流和支流。

And when you realize that, that meditation was there to access more grace, more compassion, it was tuning into the reservoir of that so that we could be streams and rivers and tributaries of that compassion.

然后你突然意识到，这一切并不全在你一个人身上。

And all of a sudden you realize it's not all on you.

我觉得这也是为什么祈祷如此有力量，因为它承认了我也会犯错，我无法独自承担这一切，我根本做不到。

I think that's partly why prayer is so powerful is because it's an acceptance that I'm fallible and I can't hold this all myself, I couldn't possibly.

而且有比我更伟大的存在在支撑着我，也在支撑着一切，那种浩瀚或许有能力理解每一个人，倾听每一个人，让人们感到被看见、被理解，因为如果只靠我自己的五感，我可能会失败。

And that there's something greater than me that's holding me and holding everything else and actually that vastness may have the capacity to understand everyone and to hear everyone and to make people feel seen and understood because if it's left to me in my five senses, I'll probably fail.

所以我觉得这一点真的很美好，我完全同意你的看法，它就是在你需要的时候，能够接触到一口井或一个蓄水池，对吧。

And so I think that piece is really beautiful and I couldn't agree with you more that it is simply having access to a well or a reservoir in the moment that you need it, right.

你面前可以有一杯水，但如果你不知道明天它从哪里来，焦虑就会涌上来，压力会来，痛苦也会来，因为你觉得自己只有这一杯水，我觉得这在很多层面上都是人类的体验。

You can have a glass of water in front of you but if you don't know where it's gonna be filled from tomorrow then the anxiety comes in, the stress comes in, the pain comes in because you think I only have one glass of water which is I think our human experience on so many levels.

这就是匮乏感，缺乏足够的理解，我还需要多少慈悲，我还能怎么努力不去焦虑，我到底还有多少？

It's the scarcity, it's the lack of access to enough understanding, how much more compassion do I need to have, how much more can I try and not be anxious, know, how much more do I have?

而我们没有，我们真的没有。

And we don't, we don't have.

所以我觉得祈祷是通往那种力量的美好途径。

And therefore I think prayer is a beautiful access to that.

但我觉得你刚才说的很多内容，虽然确实给了我们一些关于健康和幸福的指导方法，但实际上也让我们在与人互动、交流和连接时更加稳定。

But I guess what you're saying is a lot of what you're talking about, even though it does give us protocols for health and well-being, it's actually giving us stability for interacting and exchanging and connecting with people better as well.

没错。

That's right.

我的意思是，通过所谓的“方法”来追求心理和身体健康，并不是一个封闭的循环。

I mean, the the pursuit of mental and physical health through quote unquote protocols is not a closed loop.

这样做是为了让你能更好地陪伴家人，更好地面对世界，也能更亲近自然，从而看到新的可能性和新的想法。

It's so that you can be more present for your your family members, for the world, and so that you can be more present to nature, so that you can see new possibilities and new ideas.

说实话，我感到非常开心、荣幸和激动，因为过去五六年里，关于健康和养生的讨论达到了这样的高度，虽然我对此感兴趣很久了，但以前从未见过这样的局面。

Look, I feel over the moon, honored, and delighted that the last five, six years has been this conversation about health and wellness in a way that, even though I've been interested in it for a long time, I've never observed in the world before.

是的。

Yes.

我有幸在其中扮演了一点小角色，也扮演了很大的角色。

I've been fortunate to play some small part in that, and Huge part.

那项工作。

That work.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我觉得，能把我学到的东西分享出去，这好像就是我的天性。

I mean, to the ability to take what I learned and share it is just, you know, seems to be hardwired into me.

我想这就是我在这里的原因。

I think that's why I'm here.

我特别享受这个过程，而且看到大家受益，我也感到非常满足。

I enjoy it so much, and I and I feel very gratified that people benefit.

这是一种荣幸，也是一种特权。

And it's a it's an honor and a privilege.

我觉得健康养生这个领域，现在有点在自我反思的阶段。

I think that the field of health and wellness, for lack of a better term, is in a bit of a self reflection mode right now.

比如，我们到底需要多少优化？

Like, how much optimization do we need?

是不是所有人都得做红光疗法，吃一大堆补品？

Do we all need to be doing red light therapy, taking a million supplements?

不需要。

No.

不需要。

No.

不需要。

No.

不需要。

No.

不需要。

No.

不需要。

No.

你可以。

You can.

你不必。

You don't have to.

真正能带来显著改变的事情，就是我们之前讨论的那些。

The things that really move the needle are going to be the things we talked about.

你明白吗？

You know?

对。

Yeah.

冥想，不管是短的还是长的。

Meditations, brief or long.

压力大的时候做深呼吸，长长地呼气。

Long exhale breathing when you're stressed.

多喝水，多运动。

Hydration and exercise.

而且你知道，书里有一整章专门讲这个。

And you know, in the book, have an entire chapter.

这本书基本上相当于七本书合在一起。

It's basically seven books in one.

这本书非常大。

It's a very large book.

是的，

Was

听起来像是

checking It sounds like

你。

you.

如果没别的用，它至少能治失眠，或者当个门挡也行。

If nothing else, it'll cure insomnia, or it could serve as a doorstop.

你可以从头到尾按顺序读，也可以只看某些章节，或者随便翻翻。

It could be read linearly front to back, or you could just focus on individual chapters or jump around.

它就是为这个设计的。

It's designed for that.

它本来就是一个参考工具和查询指南。

It's meant to be a resource and a lookup guide.

它有点教科书的感觉，但我觉得他们的故事读起来很轻松。

It has a little bit of a textbook ish feel, but their story, I like to think it's very readable.

我在引言里确实讲了我的背景故事，以及我为什么开始做这一切的动机。

I do give my backstory and what the motivation for going into all this was and is in the introduction.

但每一章，你知道的，睡眠、运动、压力管理、营养、光线——不只是阳光，还有红光之类的，光线对身体的影响。

But each chapter, you know, sleep, exercise, stress management, nutrition, light, not just sunlight, but things like red light, etcetera, light, its impact on the body.

我的意思是，那些令人难以置信的文献，都是别人写的优秀作品，不是我的。

Mean, I incredible literature that is the beautiful work of others, not mine.

你知道的，神经可塑性和个人发展。

You know, neuroplasticity, and personal development.

每一章的设计都是为了说：好的，这些是我确定最有效的方案，从每章第一个最有效的方案开始，还有支持它们的科学依据。

Each one is is designed to say, okay, here are the protocols that I'm that I am certain are most power powerful, starting with the most powerful as the first protocol in each chapter, as well as the science that supports them.

每一个都是为了给人们提供工具。

Each one of those is meant to give people tools.

明白。

Mhmm.

但对我来说，最后一章关于个人发展的内容是最重要的，因为它涉及人类大脑、心智以及所有相关的东西。

But the final chapter on personal development, for me, was the most important in terms of framing the human brain and mind and all the stuff.

因为你在我们今天讨论开始时提到了这一点，我和詹姆斯·霍利斯有过一次对话。

Because you alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion today, but I had a conversation with James Hollis.

他是一位心理学家。

He's a psychologist.

他现在大概86岁了。

He's probably about 86 years old now.

他写了一些很棒的书，我多年前就知道了。

He wrote some incredible books that I was aware of years ago.

其中一本叫《土星阴影下》，关于疗愈和创伤。

One is called Under Saturn Shadow, on healing and trauma.

在那次讨论的早期，他就已经在这个领域工作很久了。

It's very early in that discussion, he's I mean, he's been around working hard in there for a while.

他写了《伊甸园计划》，讲的是关系心理学。

He wrote The Eden Project, which is the psychology of relationships.

真是个了不起的人。

Brilliant, brilliant man.

几年前，我在YouTube上看到他一个叫《创造人生》的视频，音频质量很差，我当时就想，我得把这个人请来上播客。

Years ago, I saw a video of him on YouTube called Creating a Life, and the audio was terrible, and I was like, I got to get this guy on the podcast.

于是我就问他，过上好生活的关键是什么？

So I said, What's the key to a really good life?

他说，有四件事。

And he said, Four things.

我在书里也提到了这个，但这些都是霍利斯说的。

I talk about this in the book, but it's all Hollis.

他说，首先，他非常富有同情心，他说，闭嘴，差不多这样，然后振作起来，行动起来。

He says, first, he's very compassionate, he says, shut up, kind of like this, suit up and show up.

我当时就想，哇。

It's like, woah.

没想到霍利斯会这么说。

I didn't expect that from Hollis.

他其实不是那种“对”的人。

He's not really like the Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

动力不足。

Motivation was weak.

然后第四点是，每天一次，跳出刺激和反应的循环，进入另一种模式，真正去感受对你来说真实的东西，最贴近你内心的东西，这听起来才像我预期的霍利斯。

And then the fourth one is to, once a day, get out of stimulus and response, drop into a different mode, and really stay in touch with what's true for you, what's closest to your heart, which sounded more like the Hollis I was expecting.

那个“闭嘴”的部分其实是在讲感恩。

The shut up piece is actually about gratitude.

他每天都讲这个。

He talks about this every day.

他真的会让他的客户写下这些：闭嘴，振作，出现。

He literally has his clients write this down, shut up, suit up, show up.

总有人比你承受更多痛苦。

There's always somebody suffering more than you.

这是他的信念，我完全同意。

That's his belief, and I I totally agree.

所以我们必须努力去感恩。

So we have to work to be grateful.

对大多数人来说，这不是本能反应。

It's not a reflex for most people.

做感恩练习。

Do a gratitude practice.

去做吧。

Do it.

然后是准备好。

Then it suit up.

准备。

Prepare.

准备这部分实际上是关于确保你在生活中扮演角色时，无论是人际关系、职业还是其他方面，都能尽可能让自己处于最佳状态去赢得成功。

The prepare piece is really about making sure that when you show up for the roles in your life, relational, vocational, etcetera, that you're positioning yourself to to win as best you can.

我在书里提到一个跟神经科学相关的方法，讲的就是怎么做到这一点。

And there's a process I talk about that's neuroscience related in the book of how to do that.

最后一条就是“到场”。

And then the last one is show up.

你知道吗，这个人整天讲心态、讲内心这些，结果他跟我说，他说，拥有美好生活最基本的一件事，就是履行好外在的角色。

You know, here's this guy who's all about the mind, and the heart, and all this stuff, and he's telling me, he said, you know, one of the most fundamental things to having a good life is to fulfill outward roles.

对。

Mhmm.

如果以为只要听从内心的渴望就够了，那就太天真了。

And it's naive to think that we just need to be in touch with our heart's desires.

我们必须履行外在的角色，尤其是那些我们不喜欢、甚至想离开的角色，因为这样我们才有资本去离开。

We have to fulfill outward roles, especially if we don't like those roles, and we want to leave them, because that positions us to leave them if we need to.

所以前三条听起来有点像，借用年轻人的话说，就是那种老掉牙的建议，就是“闭嘴、穿好衣服、到场”。

So the first three were kind of like very, you know, steal a term from the kids, boomer boomer advice, know, like, you know, shut up, suit up, show up.

但他表达的方式和背后的真正含义，真的很美。

But the way he couches and what the real meaning behind it is just beautiful.

然后，跳出刺激和反应这个模式，我们这些年也听过不少，维克多·弗兰克尔，还有修行者，几千年来都在讲这个，就是别老想着计划和做事。

And then the getting out of stimulus and response is something that we've heard about for years, Viktor Frankl, people, meditators for thousands of years, you know, getting out of this planning and doing thing.

我说，这个可不容易。

And I said, but that's a tough one.

对吧？

Right?

因为我怎么才能触及内心最深处的渴望呢？

Because how do I touch into my deepest heart's desires?

或者就坐在那儿，心里想，好吧，我的内心到底想要什么？

Or just sit there and go, like, okay, does my heart really want?

也许吧。

Maybe.

但他说的是，最重要的是你得跳出角色扮演。

But what he said is, the most important thing is that you have to get out of role fulfillment.

你得摆脱那种为了讨好自己或别人而活的状态，哪怕只是五分钟，让大脑放空，因为这时候你的潜意识会自然而然地把一些东西浮上来，让你的意识去接收。

You have to get out of the mode of trying to please notions of yourself, to please other people for a short while, could be five minutes, and let your mind idle, because that's where your unconscious will spontaneously just toss things up to your conscious mind to receive.

有些人在梦里会得到这些答案。

Some people get them in dreams.

有些人坐下来就会意识到，天哪，我今天只是有点烦。

Some people will sit there and realize, gosh, I was just frustrated today.

其实我并不想离开我的工作。

I actually don't wanna leave my job.

其实我并不想离开我的伴侣。

I actually don't wanna leave my spouse.

我只是太累了。

I'm just exhausted.

真相就浮现出来了。

The truth comes out.

有时候会是，天哪，我过错了人生。

Sometimes it will be, oh my gosh, I'm in the wrong life.

这不是我的人生。

This is not my life.

好的，我明天会再确认一下，确保那仍然是真的，然后再做任何决定。反复检查这些事情太重要了。

Okay, I'll check-in tomorrow to make sure that's still true before I That do anything about seesaw of checking in on all these things is so critical.

说实话，这本书也是写给我自己的。

And frankly, the book was also written to myself.

这是我二十多岁时希望拥有的那本书。

It was the book I wish I had in my twenties.

我走上了科学这条路，因为当时我走投无路。我们在之前的播客里聊过，我高中毕业时生活一团糟。

I hopped on the science track, because I, out of desperation, we've talked about this on previous podcasts, my life was not going well as I exited high school.

我的生活看起来真的很糟糕。

My life was looking really bad.

我有很多理由生气，我很沮丧，但我告诉自己，没有人会来救我。

And I had a lot of reasons to be angry, I had frustration, and I but I was like, no one's coming to save me.

履行角色。

Role fulfillment.

至少对我来说，就是一直做下去，我知道只要我坚持做，总有一天会有所收获。

Do the thing, at least for me, that I knew if I just kept doing it, at some point I'd get something.

那时候，那个东西就是学位。

And in that case, was a degree.

我就不断地积累知识，一层一层往上叠。

I would just build knowledge on knowledge.

后来我确实爱上了学习，但就算没爱上，我也会继续走下去。

I eventually fell in love with that learning, but even if I hadn't, I would've kept going.

本期节目由State Farm赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

我们经常聊到有意识地做决定，这其实也延伸到实际的事情上，比如确保你的保险真的适合你的生活。

We talk a lot about intentional decision making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life.

State Farm会根据你的情况来帮你，他们知道，对自己的决定感到满意是多么美好的事。

State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions.

今天就联系State Farm的代理人，了解如何通过个人价格方案选择捆绑投保，省下更多钱。

Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan.

就像好邻居一样，State Farm随时在你身边。

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

价格基于各州不同的费率方案，保障选项由客户选择，可用性、折扣和优惠的多少以及资格条件也因州而异。

Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

詹姆斯·霍利斯的观点最棒的地方在于，它两者都兼顾了。

What's so awesome about James Hollis' stance is that it acknowledges both.

我们听说我们需要了解自己，知道自己真正想要什么。

We hear we need to be in touch with ourselves, what we really want.

我们也需要在社会中、家庭中、对自己和对他人履行角色，但为他人履行角色这一点，在所有的社会、所有的文化、几千年来从未失败过。

We also need to fulfill roles in society, in our families, to ourselves, and to others, but the fulfilling roles for others piece has never failed across societies, across cultures, across thousands of years.

正是这一点给了我们信心，如果我们需要转行、换工作或做其他事情，我们也能在下一件事上成功。

This is the thing that gives us confidence that if we need to pivot, work or whatever, that we can be successful in the next thing.

我们控制自己思想的能力，对抗大脑的叛逆并完成事情的能力，对我们所谓的信心至关重要。

Our ability to control our own mind, to work against the revolution that is our brain, and get things done, is critical to this thing that we call confidence.

对。

Yes.

舵应该在我们自己手里。

The rudder should be within us.

我大致上是朝着我想去的方向前进，因为有些日子我们确实不想这么做。

I'm steering in a direction that I want to go on average, because some days we don't want to do it.

但对我来说，我差不多等到快50岁了，坐下来跟霍利斯聊了之后，才真正明白这一点。

But that for me was it was like, I had to wait until I was almost 50 years old, and sit down with Hollis to to really see that.

但我觉得还有一件事，跟我们今天聊的所有内容都密切相关，我们进来之前也聊过，就是那章关于个人发展的内容，也涉及到了思想的神经科学。

But the other thing that I just think is sort of central to everything we're talking about today, and we were talking about before we came in here, is that that chapter on personal development also gets into the neuroscience of thoughts.

你知道，神经科学教科书里根本没有讲这个。

You know, there is no textbook in neuroscience that covers this.

神经科学教科书，其实有很多很棒的，涵盖了从大脑发育到可塑性，再到大脑疾病的所有内容。

Are textbooks in neuroscience, wonderful ones in fact, that cover everything from brain development to plasticity to diseases of the brain.

这些书教的就是这些。

Teach from these books.

对吧？

Right?

但你找不到专门讲思想的章节，你找到的是关于记忆、意识的，比如，思想到底是什么？

And you won't find a section or a chapter on thoughts, you find them on memories, on consciousness, like, what's a thought?

我在播客里和一位来自杜克大学的神经科学家聊过，她叫珍妮·格罗，研究大脑如何呈现视觉空间。

And I had a conversation on my podcast with a neuroscientist from Duke, her name is Jenny Grow, and she studies how the brain represents visual space.

但她也是第一次向我解释想法到底是怎么运作的，而我作为神经科学家，自己都没搞明白。

But she also explained to me for the first time how thoughts actually work, and I'm a neuroscientist, and I couldn't figure it out.

她说，基本上，我们人类这个物种被赋予了比任何其他旧世界灵长类动物都要多得多的脑区来代表不同的感官，不只是触觉一个区域，而是很多很多，远超其他灵长类。

And she said, well basically, our species was gifted many many more brain areas to represent the different senses, but not just one area for touch, but many many, many more than any of the other old world primates out there.

当我们有一个想法时，比如，假设我们在网上看到什么，或者比如这张桌子。

And when we have a thought, so like, let's say we see something online, or or this table for instance.

所以如果我们看这张桌子，当我们看到某样东西并集中注意力，或者听到某样东西并集中注意力时，就像《哈利·波特》舞台剧里的魔法图书馆，周围的书籍开始变化。

So if we look at this table, the moment we look at something and concentrate on it, or we hear something and concentrate on it, It's almost like the magic library in the Harry Potter play, where the books around it start to change.

你拿出一本关于某件事的书，周围的书都开始变得与那件事相关。

You take out a book on one thing, all the books around it start to become tangentially related to that thing.

所以如果我们看这张桌子，它是玻璃的。

So if we look at this table, it's glass.

所以我大脑中代表玻璃的区域也在想着光滑。

So my the area of my brain that represents glass also is thinking smooth.

然后它又想到优雅。

Then it's thinking elegant.

接着又想到圆形。

Then it's thinking round.

所以大脑开始进入我们所说的动态吸引子状态。

And so the brain starts moving into what we call a dynamic attractor state.

就像有一个滚珠，也就是我们的想法，放在一个平面上。

It's like there was a ball bearing, which is our thoughts, on a flat surface.

一旦我们种下那个念头，或者它被种下，比如政治、战争、狗、孩子、微笑，不管是什么，它都有可能引发这些想法。

And the moment we seed that thought, or it's seeded for us, like politics, war, dog, child, smile, whatever it is, it has the potential to seed those thoughts.

这些大脑区域，所有代表嗅觉、触觉、听觉的区域，都开始提供相关的主题。

These brain areas, everything that represents smell, touch, hearing, they all start offering up related themes.

所以珍妮解释的是，我们是能够创造所有这些发散且非常复杂的表征的物种，神经科学家称之为种子刺激，但就是某种东西。

And so what Jenny explained was we are the species that can create all these tangential and very elaborate representations of, neuroscientists call them a seed stimuli, but something.

其实我也可以选择绘画。

Now I could have picked painting.

我也可以选你总是穿得整整齐齐这一点，这总是让我怀疑自己身上是不是有绒毛。

I could have picked the fact that you always are immaculately dressed, which always makes me wonder if I've got lint on myself.

你也是啊。

You are too.

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许吧。

Maybe

不知怎么的，我好像总是沾上绒毛，但你看起来总是……我也不知道。

somehow I just seem to accumulate lint, but you always seem I don't know.

也许你有什么神奇的东西能让你不沾绒毛。

Maybe you have some magic thing that protects you from lint.

但我可以选任何东西，大脑都会开始叠加感官表征。

But I could pick anything, and the brain will start to layer in sensory representations.

我这么说是什么意思呢？

What do I mean by that?

我说的是光滑。

I said smooth.

现在其他光滑的东西就浮现在脑海里了。

Now other smooth things come to mind.

这就是大脑在思考时的工作方式，我们需要非常非常小心我们总是说的那些我们喂养的想法，但让我们从积极的角度来看待它。

This is the way that the brain works when it comes to thinking, and we need to be very, very careful what sorts of thoughts, we always say that we feed, but let's think about it in a positive stance.

我可以拿一件我喜欢的事情，专注于它，然后其他我喜欢的事情就会开始进入画面。

I can take something I love, focus on it, and other things I love will start to enter the picture.

现在有些人说，哦，这有点偏向吸引力法则了。

Now some people say, oh, this is kind of veering towards law of attraction.

随便吧。

Whatever.

这时候人们爱怎么叫就怎么叫。

People can call it whatever they want at this point.

大脑会开始围绕那个事物，从我的过去、现在，以及未来可能发生的事情，层层叠加感官表征。

Human brain starts to layer in sensory representations of things around that, from my past, from the present, what could be in the future.

她这么一解释，我心里就想，天哪。

And as she explained this, I thought, my goodness.

生活的真正功课，就是保持活在当下，同时也要做一个有选择性的过滤器，决定哪些念头——我不想说喂养，而是播种。

The real work of life is to stay present, but to also be a selective filter about which thoughts we, I don't want to say feed, but seed.

这太重要了，那我们该怎么做呢？

This is so important, and how do we do this again?

就是要认识到，我们的大脑可以被拉向不同的方向。

By getting to the recognition that our brain can be pulled in different directions.

我们并不总是能掌控一切。

We're not always in control.

如果我们沿着某条思路或某种情绪状态走得够远，那个钢珠就会掉进沟槽里，很难再出来。

Then if we go far enough down a particular thought route, or emotional state, that ball bearing starts to drop into a trench, it's very hard to get out.

所以，那种思绪的翻涌，有时候对我来说是一大早醒来的时候，或者是深夜，或者是经历压力之后，或者是事情太多的时候。

So the revolution of the mind that sometimes starts first thing in the morning for me, or late at night, or after bouts of stress, or when it's just been so much.

要克服这种思绪的翻涌，只能承认：啊，就像我现在所在的图书馆里，到处都是这些东西。

The revolution of the mind can only be overcome by acknowledging, ah, like, the library I'm in right now is filled with this stuff.

我需要去图书馆的另一个房间。

I need to go to another room in the library.

光靠继续想这些问题，是没办法从这里脱身的。

There's no way out of here by just continuing to think about these problems.

怎么才能停止思考呢？

How do you turn off thinking?

所以我觉得，这是人类需要掌握的一项超级技能。

So this is the super skill, I think, of humans that we need to develop.

我的书里没有教怎么关掉思绪的方法，因为那根本行不通。

I do not have a protocol in my book for how to turn off thoughts, because it doesn't work.

我们能做的是回到感觉，回到呼吸。

What we can do is get back into sensation, back to breath.

以前在神经科学领域听起来有点玄乎的那些东西，现在已经有大量的随机对照试验，还有国会图书馆的PubMed编号来支持了。

All the stuff that used to sound kind of loose in the neuroscience world, there are tons of randomized controlled trials, and you know, Library of Congress PubMed IDs for this stuff now.

这些不再是模棱两可的东西了。

This stuff is no longer wishy washy.

这其实关乎我们大脑的可塑性，也关乎我们引导它走向正确方向的能力。

It's really about the lability of our brain, but also our ability to steer it in the right direction.

你用的那些词，感觉跟东方对心智和意识运作的看法非常相似。

The words you used there feel very analogous to the eastern perspective of how the mind and the consciousness work.

你举了个例子，说感觉心智被拉扯，或者大脑被拉扯。

So you gave the example of you saying the mind feeling pulled, or like the brain feeling pulled.

东方文化里有个比喻，说心智就像一辆战车，有五匹马拉着，这五匹马就是五种感官。

And so the metaphor that's created in the Eastern landscape is that the mind is on a chariot and there are five horses and the five horses are the five senses.

太美了。

Beautiful.

所以当你听到什么，闻到什么，不管是什么，它就会吸引你。

And so the sense you hear something, you smell something, whatever it may be, and it captivates you.

然后那些马就开始往各个方向跑，就像我们有时候觉得，天哪，我得去做那件事，但又有点想跟这个人待在一起，可又刚听到新闻里发生了什么。

And now the horses start running in all these different directions, which is how we feel when we're like, oh God, I need to do that thing, but I kind of wanna spend time with this person, but oh my God, just heard about what happened in the news.

然后所有的马都往那个方向追。

And it's like, all the horses are chasing that direction.

而心智呢，就像拼命想抓住缰绳，但完全不知道发生了什么。

And the mind is like trying to hold onto the reins, but doesn't have a clue what's going on.

然后发生的是，当马儿们试图奔跑时，唯一能帮到心智的就是那个守卫。

And then what's happened is that as the horses are trying to run, the only thing that can help the mind is the guard.

有一位神，那就是智慧。

There's a god, which is the intelligence.

而智慧就是在马儿想做的事和受条件制约的意识所体验到的之间进行辨别。

And the intelligence is the discernment between what the horses wanna do and what the conditioned consciousness experiences.

比如说，如果一匹马朝着酒精跑去，因为它一直都能接触到酒精，那受条件制约的意识就会说：对，我们喜欢酒精。

So for example, if a horse is running toward alcohol because it's always had access to alcohol, the conditioned consciousness goes, oh yeah, we like alcohol.

我们上次玩得很开心。

We had a great time last time.

然后守卫们完全让开了路，我们就跟着去了。

And the guards totally moved out the way and then we go and follow that.

东方的观点是，感官会做它们想做的事，除非它们被控制，除非它们被训练。

The Eastern perspective is the senses are gonna do what they're gonna do unless they're controlled unless they're trained.

如果马受过训练，它就会听话。

If a horse is trained, it follows suit.

如果没受过训练，它就会发疯、乱跑。

If it isn't trained, it's gonna go wild and go crazy.

所以你的心是一匹野马，还是一匹训练有素的马？

So is your mind a wild horse or is it a trained horse?

第二个问题是，你的智慧受过训练吗？

The second is, is your intelligence trained?

这样，如果你的感官失控了，心有能力去和守卫、智慧核对一下，智慧可以说，不行。

So that if your sense gets out of control, does the mind have the ability to check with the guard and the intelligence and the intelligence can go, no.

我们知道，晚上出去太晚，喝得有点多，第二天就不太好受。

We know that when we go out late at night, we get a bit too drunk and it's not too great tomorrow.

我们知道，工作太拼命，会把自己累垮，筋疲力尽，但那个智慧需要加强。

We know that when we kind of push it at work too much, we burn ourselves out and we get exhausted, but that intelligence need to be strengthened.

而且，这还是要通过你允许进入的念头来实现。

And again, that's through the thoughts that you allow in.

你都在用什么想法来充实你的智慧呢？

What are the thoughts that you're filling your intelligence up with?

所以你有这两个检查点。

So you've got these two checking points.

这是从东方的角度来理解心智和意识。

This is from the eastern perspective of understanding the mind and the consciousness.

但对我们来说难的是，我们太累了，所以智慧被削弱了。

But the hard part for us is we're exhausted, so the intelligence is weakened.

然后我们又压力很大，所以心智真的没有能力去控制这些马，我们的想法就变得疯狂起来。

And then we're stressed out, so the mind doesn't really have the the ability to rein in any of these horses, so our thoughts go wild and crazy.

我觉得这就是问题的关键，我觉得我们今天就是太累了。

And I think that's at the crux of it, that I think we're just so tired today.

听着，我对神经科学领域非常敬畏。

Look, have great reverence for the field of neuroscience.

神经科学家们发现的东西真是太神奇了。

It's amazing what neuroscientists have figured out.

即便是在过去的二十五年里，我也非常幸运能参与神经科学的发展，那时候所有这些工具刚刚出现，我们还有很多要探索的，但我们已经获得了十年前、二十年前，甚至四十年前完全没有的惊人理解。

Even in the last twenty five years, I've been so blessed to be a part of neuroscience at a time where all these tools just arrived, we so much still to figure out, but just incredible understanding that we didn't have ten, twenty years ago, certainly forty years ago.

但从主题上看，许多从顶尖神经科学中得出的结论，在很久以前就已经在东方被证明并记录下来了。

But thematically, many of the things that one can conclude from the best neuroscience has been demonstrated and was documented in The East a long time ago.

只是用了不同的语言。

Just different language.

也许东方花了更多时间观察和实践，而这两者现在真的开始融合了。

More time perhaps spent observing and putting into practices, and the two have really started to merge.

对。

Yeah.

我也这么觉得。

I feel that way.

确实如此，而且现在真的是一个大力支持联邦资助研究的好时机。

They really have, and and really this is a moment to put in a real strong plug for federally funded research.

很难向人们解释，正是因为这种支持，我们才发现了那么多不可思议的科学成果和医学馈赠，这些在其他地方是做不到的。

It is hard to explain to people just how much incredible science and gifts of medicine have been discovered because of that support that doesn't happen elsewhere in the world.

是的，在英国，是的，在欧洲其他地方，但像我父亲，他从南美洲来到美国成为科学家，因为那里没有研究经费。

Yes, in The UK, yes, in other places in Europe, but like my father came from South America to The United States to become a scientist, because there's no funding for research there.

但重点是，大约二十五年前，在国家卫生研究院，有个人，我不知道是谁，做了一个非常非常好的决定，开始资助关于冥想的研究。

But the point being that about twenty five years ago, someone, I don't know who, at the National Institutes of Health made the very, very good decision to start funding grants on meditation.

说实话，对于想找到阿尔茨海默症和帕金森症等疾病治疗方法的科学家来说，资金是有限的，所以这听起来有点不靠谱。

Which, let's face it, for scientists who want to understand cures to Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and stuff, there's a finite amount of money, so it sounded a bit squishy.

比如，我们真的要资助这些东西吗？

Like, are we really going to fund this stuff?

但在当时，冥想确实被认为是反主流文化的，是玄学，诸如此类。而我们确切知道的是，这些强调呼气、闭眼、摆脱刺激与反应的练习，从根本上帮助人们改善睡眠、减轻压力，帮助患有多动症的孩子，帮助那些正在处理创伤的人，等等等等。

But at the time, meditation was really considered counterculture, and woo, and all of that, and what we know for certain is that these practices of exhale emphasized breathing, closing one's eyes, getting out of stimulus and response, it fundamentally helps people at the level of sleep, reduce stress, helps kids with ADHD, helps people who are dealing with traumas, I mean, and on and on.

我跟你说的这些你都已经知道了，现在大多数人会说，对，好吧，我们知道。

I'm telling you what you already know, and now most people say, yeah, okay, we we know.

我们应该冥想。

We should meditate.

对吧？

Okay?

但在那之前，西方科学并没有证实这一点，直到NIH主要介入，并且做了我认为非常好的工作，把联邦税收资金投入到这方面。

But there was no western science substantiation for that until mainly NIH came in and and did the, what I believe, really good work of putting federal tax dollars to that.

现在我们做到了，我觉得还有更多可以发现的，但这提醒我们，西方科学和东方实践并不总是冲突的。

And now we're there, and and I think there's more to discover, but it's just a reminder that Western science and Eastern practices are not always in conflict.

事实上，它们常常在意识到之前就已经在合作了。

In fact, they're often in collaboration before they even realize it.

对。

Yeah.

现在它们真的融合了。

And now they've really merged.

所以这确实是一个成功的故事。

So there's a really there's that's a success story.

如果我想花点时间向威斯康星大学的里奇·戴维森及其同事们致敬，他们写了《Altered Traits》这本书，这主要是基于他们实验室关于正念的研究，让人们进入功能磁共振成像，真正理解研究训练有素的瑜伽士很重要，但第一次冥想的大学生也很重要，这些突破性的工作非常重要。

If I want to take a moment to tip my hat to Richie Davidson and colleagues at University of Wisconsin, who wrote Altered Traits, which was one of the first books based on mostly on the work in his laboratory about mindfulness, and putting people into FMRIs, and really understanding that studying well trained yogis was important, but also college students meditating for the first time, and really important work that broke through.

需要有像他这样的科学家来突破，现在这已经是常识了。

There needed to be a scientist like him to kind of break through, and now it's common knowledge.

但他们是对的，根据你告诉我的一切。

But they had it right, based on everything you're telling me.

也许这是每天首先要承认的事情。

And maybe that's the first thing to acknowledge each day.

醒来，感谢上帝又活了一天。

Wake up, thank God for being alive another day.

那是霍利斯说的闭嘴。

That's Hollis' shut up.

他不是在说闭嘴，他是在说感恩。

He's not saying shut up, he's saying be grateful.

你知道吗？

You know?

你在呼吸。

You're breathing.

你醒着。

You're awake.

有些人会说，我自己也说过，是啊，好吧，但是我有，但是好吧，你就在那儿。

Some people will say, and I've certainly said like, yeah, okay, but I've got but okay, you're there.

然后我觉得，至少对我来说，是要承认我们有这个特点。

And then I think it's, at least for me, it's to acknowledge that we've got this feature.

我们别把它叫做缺陷，我们把它叫做特点。

Let's not call it a flaw, let's call it a feature.

也就是说，我们很容易滑入消极的深渊，沉迷于那些对我们无益的事情，但我们也可以在早晨第一时间更快地爬上楼梯。

Which is we can easily slide down the trench of negativity, and obsession over things that don't serve us, but we can also climb up the staircase faster first thing in the morning.

这确实是真的，你知道，昼夜节律，我们在早晨更能为自己发声。

This is something that's really true, you know, the Circadian rhythm, we're much better at advocating for ourself in the morning.

有些人需要先喝咖啡，明白了。

Some people need coffee first, gotcha.

有些人需要先见阳光，等等，但是你知道，凌晨两三点是难以与自己内心抗争的时刻。

Need some sunlight first, etcetera, but you know, two, three in the morning is a hard time to fight one's own mind.

但早晨第一时间，你就有机会一搏。

But first thing in the morning, you stand a fighting chance.

如果

If

睡得不够多，就试试瑜伽休息术。

sleep quite as much, do yoga nidra.

你会恢复一些睡眠和精力。

You'll recover some of that sleep, that vigor.

也许第一场战斗是和我们自己，对吧？

Maybe the first fight is with ourselves, right?

而且，如果允许的话，我现在肯定是在替他发表意见，但也许这就是上帝想要的。

And maybe, if I may, and now definitely editorialize him, but maybe that's what God wants.

也许那是我们的第一个考验。

Maybe that's our first test.

嘿，你能不能承认，仅仅作为人类，你就不是处于最佳状态？

Hey, can you just acknowledge that you're not on the best footing just by being human?

对。

Mhmm.

一步一步往上爬。

Climb up the ladder.

先站稳脚跟，然后你才有机会一搏。

Get a foothold on yourself, and then you stand a fighting chance.

你看，我现在用的词都是什么“搏斗”、“立足点”之类的。

And even my language now is like fighting and foothold.

我是说，肯定有更平和、更轻松的方式进入这个状态，但至少对我来说，至少以我现在的处境，那种平和和轻松要到一天结束的时候才会到来。

I mean, there's gotta be a a more peaceful, easeful way into this, but at least for me, at least where I stand now, the peace and ease doesn't come till the end of the day.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我一直在努力。

But I work on it.