卡米拉·门德斯：“完美主义正在毁掉我的生活”

你的童年是充满爱的。

You had a loving childhood.

这是真的。

That's that's true.

对。

Yeah.

但同时，有那么一段特别的经历在你身上留下了印记，你在做自我成长的时候不得不去面对它。

And at the same time, there's this one specific experience that has left this mark on you that you had to address when you were doing the self work.

我觉得当我们能同时接纳这两种事实时，你其实给了自己空间去探索它们，也去认可它们。

And I think when we can hold both truths at the same time, you actually give yourself space to explore both of them and validate both of them.

而当我们说，哦，非此即彼，我觉得那就是我们出错的地方。

Whereas when we say, oh, it's either or, that's where I think we go wrong.

比如，我的父母要么很了不起，很爱我，

Like, my parents either were amazing and loved me

是的。

Yes.

所以我的所有感受都不算数，也不重要。

And therefore none of my feelings are valid or important.

或者只有我的感受才算数，才重要。

Or my feelings are the only thing that's valid and important.

他们什么都没做对。

They didn't get anything right.

但事实并非如此。

And that's just not true.

我觉得成熟其实就是有能力生活在灰色地带。

And I think maturity is actually the ability to live in the gray.

我现在比以往任何时候都更觉得，这种活在灰色地带、两件事可以同时成立的想法很重要，因为我很难接受没有绝对真理。

I feel that now more than ever is this idea of like living in the gray and like two things can be true at once because I struggle with not having absolute truths.

我总是想弄清楚，到底……

Like, I always wanna be like, what was...

到底是怎么回事？

What is the narrative?

真正的事实到底是什么？

What is the the thing that's actually true?

但有时候就是没有真相。

And it's like sometimes there is no truth.

只是有点……

It's just kind of...

就是一片灰色地带。

It's just a gray area.

而且……

And like...

你说得对。

And you're right.

两件事可以同时成立。

Two things can be true at once.

你也有在两种文化之间长大的经历。

You also had that experience of growing up between two cultures.

所以我在想，那是不是也是其中的一部分原因。

So I wonder whether that was part of it too.

我成长的过程中，巴西文化一直是我生活中很重要的一部分，因为我父母都是巴西人。

When I was growing up, Brazilian culture was such a part of my life because both of my parents are Brazilian.

所以他们……

So they...

他们之间说葡萄牙语，也以非常巴西的方式抚养我们。

And they were speaking Portuguese with each other and raising us in very Brazilian ways.

所以我知道那是我身份的一部分，但我觉得高中时我对它有些抵触。

So like, I know that that was part of my identity, but I think I had a resistance toward it when I was in high school.

我在迈阿密长大，那是一个拉丁氛围很浓的地方。

And I grew up in Miami, which is a very Latin place.

那里每个人都是拉丁裔。

Like everyone there is Latino.

我学校里的每个人也都是拉丁裔。

Everyone at my school was Latino.

但对我来说，我否认它更多是出于恐惧，因为我想当演员，我害怕这会阻碍我的成功，因为当时没有太多像我这样长相或背景的人成功的例子。

But like for me, I denied it more out of fear of like, I wanted to be an actor and I was afraid of that getting in the way of my success because there weren't a lot of models of success for people that looked like me or had my background.

我不是那种金发碧眼的邻家白人女孩。

Like I wasn't this white girl next door with blonde hair and blue eyes.

你知道，我想让自己尽可能模糊，尽可能让人接受，我想。

You know, I wanted to make myself as like ambiguous as possible and as palatable as possible, I guess.

我觉得我在某种程度上抗拒自己的一部分。

I felt like I was sort of resisting that part of myself.

在我的职业生涯中，有一个转折点，我意识到，哦，其实，这是我的超能力。

And there was a switch at one point in my career where I realized, oh, actually, like, this is my super power.

这是让我与众不同的地方。

This is what makes me unique.

然后我开始接受它，拥抱它，感觉比以往任何时候都更像自己。

And and then I started leaning into that and embracing it and felt more myself than I ever have.

现在这就是为什么，你知道，遇见鲁迪是一次如此美好的经历，因为他也是巴西裔美国人。

And now that's why, you know, meeting Rudy was such a beautiful experience because he's also Brazilian American.

他是巴西、意大利和美国的混血。

He's Brazilian Italian American.

但他的巴西血统我觉得更明显，因为他妈妈是巴西人，而且他从小在一个巴西人很多的社区长大。

But his Brazilian side is I think way stronger because his mom's Brazilian and he grew up in a neighborhood that was very Brazilian.

所以我们都有那种巴西裔美国人的背景，这真的很少见。

And so we both shared that sort of Brazilian American thing, and it's so rare.

尤其是在好莱坞，我几乎遇不到其他巴西裔美国人。

Especially in Hollywood, like I never meet other Brazilian Americans.

所以我们真的很有共鸣，关系特别好，就是因为这种共同的文化，这种共同的第三种文化，你懂吗？

And so that was something we really connected and bonded about was having this like shared culture, this shared third culture, you know?

这又回到了我们刚才聊的，感觉你好像必须学会接受自己所有的不同部分。

It goes back to what we were talking about a second ago that it almost feels like you had to learn to accept all the different parts of yourself.

对。

Yeah.

而且还要看到所有这些部分。

And like see all of them.

对。

Yeah.

所以就像，我有一点这个，也有一点那个，这也是我的一部分。

And so it's like, I am a bit of this, and I am a bit of this, and this is also who I am.

现在我能看到完整的画面，而不是非得选一个。

And now I can see the full picture rather than when I'm having to choose.

比如，我只能是这样，或者只能是那样。

I like, I'm only this or I'm only that.

但感觉随着年龄增长，你会越来越回归自己的根源。

But it feels like when the older you get, you kind of like go back to your roots more and more.

不知道你有没有这种体会，但我觉得有时候我们好像会绕回原点。

I don't know if you found this in life, but like, I feel like sometimes we kind of go full circle.

我也看到我朋友身上发生过这种事。

I've seen it happen with my friends too.

比如，有些人从小在宗教环境里长大，后来完全排斥上帝，排斥宗教，甚至反抗它。

Like, people who grew up really religious, and then they completely reject God and reject religion and rebel against it.

然后他们经历了一些事情，后来在生活中又慢慢回到那个状态，然后又变得虔诚了，但方式不一样了。

And then they, like, go through some things and they kind of come back to it later in life, and then they're, like, religious again, but in a different way.

对。

Yeah.

我见过很多人都是这样。

I've seen that happen a lot with people.

对我来说，我觉得我的文化也是这样。我从小在巴西文化中长大，然后我有点……

And for me, I feel like it's kind of been that way with my with my culture where it's like I grew up very Brazilian, and then I sort of...

不。

No.

我不会说我曾经排斥它，但我就是没有……

I wouldn't say I ever rejected it, but I just didn't...

我没有把它放在首位。

I didn't lead with that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我又重新找到了它，而且这次让我感觉比以往任何时候都更像自己。

And then I sort of found it again in a way that made me feel more myself than ever.

然后我觉得我身上那些更偏向美国价值观的东西，比如更注重个人主义，开始慢慢淡化了。

And then the values that I think that I carried that were more American values, like more about individualism, those started to fade away.

然后我身上那种更注重集体、家庭和文化的部分开始占据主导。

And then my, like, more communal familial cultural side started to take over.

现在我觉得这些价值观在我心里比以前更强烈了。

And and now I think those values are stronger in me than they were before.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得生活就是这样，有起有伏，循环往复。

I think there is that cyclical nature to life.

对。

Yeah.

所以童年学到的东西才那么重要。

And that's why what we learn in our childhood is so important.

对。

Yeah.

因为你会经常回到那个原点。

Because you find your way back to it often.

确实是这样。

You do.

而且你会重新定义它，

And you like redefine it in a way,

但是，对。

but Yeah.

重新定义这个词用得好。

Redefine's a good word.

对我来说，我家里从小就没有任何宗教信仰。

For me also, I didn't grow up with any religion in my house.

我爸爸那边的家人都是彻底的无神论者。

My dad's side of the family is super atheist.

我爷爷在六十年代的巴西是个激进的无神论者。

My grandpa was like a radical atheist in the sixties in Brazil.

你知道吗？

Know?

所以那一边的家人，他们就是特别注重逻辑思维。

So like that whole side of the family, they're just very, you know, all about logical thinking.

他们非常相信科学，宗教对他们来说根本不存在。

They're very science based And just like religion just wasn't a thing.

然后我妈妈那边的家人，他们是非常虔诚的天主教徒。

And then my mom's side of the family is like very Catholic.

现在他们……

And now they're...

他们信奉一种叫唯灵论的宗教。

They practice a religion called spiritism.

我觉得应该是这么翻译的。

I think that's the translation.

这是葡萄牙语里的说法，跟轮回转世有很大关系。

Is how you say it in Portuguese, which has a lot to do with like reincarnation.

而且这完全是另一种……

And it's just like a completely different...

宗教光谱上完全不同的两端。

Two different sides of the religious scale.

你知道，虽然我妈妈那边有点宗教信仰，但这并不是我成长的一部分。

You know, even though my mom's side of the family was somewhat religious, that wasn't a part of my upbringing.

比如，我没去过教堂。

Like, I didn't go to church.

我妈妈在家也不太实践这些。

My mom didn't really practice it at home.

她信上帝，但我觉得我爸爸的影响肯定更占主导。

She believed in God, but like, I think my dad's presence definitely was more dominant.

这也让餐桌上的对话变得非常精彩。

And it allowed for a lot of great conversations at the dinner table.

背后其实有很多思考。

Like, there was a lot of thought behind it.

他并不是在灌输我们不信上帝。

It's not like he was indoctrinating us to, like, not believe in God.

但我觉得我……

But I feel like I...

你知道，我十几岁的时候是个无神论者。

You know, when I was a teenager, I was an atheist.

而且我当时很自豪自己是个无神论者，不相信任何神。

And I like was very proud to be an atheist and I didn't believe in any god.

我那时读理查德·道金斯，非常坚定的无神论者。

And I was like reading Richard Dawkins and like I was just very much an atheist.

我一直到二十多岁，直到我跌入谷底，去了霍夫曼，事情才开始改变。

And I was well into my 20s and it wasn't until I sort of hit that rock bottom and I went to Hoffman that things started to change for me.

有趣的是，我拒绝灵性那么久。

And it was so funny because I rejected spirituality for so long.

然后，你知道，我做了多年的心理治疗。

And then, you know, I've done years of therapy.

我接受心理治疗差不多有十年了。

I've been in therapy for almost a decade.

我有点遇到了瓶颈，就是，我已经谈过我的问题，也把它们理性化了，我可以一直说一直说，但我觉得自己并没有在愈合。

And I kind of hit a plateau where I was like, I've talked about my problems and I've rationalized them and I can talk and talk and talk, but like I don't feel like I'm healing.

我觉得自己困在一个循环里，很清楚自己的问题是什么，但真的没法做出改变，或者改变自己的感受。

I feel like I'm stuck in this cycle of like being very aware of what my problems are, but not really being able to implement any change around them or like changing how I feel.

那些情绪都还在。

Like all those like feelings are still there.

我觉得我需要更多的东西。

I feel like I need something more.

我需要一个更大的目标。

I need like a larger purpose.

我需要像……

I need like...

我渴望一些更有意义的东西。

I'm craving something more meaningful.

而且当时我甚至不知道那是灵性方面的需求。

And I didn't even know that it was spirituality at the time, by the way.

我只是知道自己需要更多。

I just like knew that I needed something more.

是的，我在治疗中遇到了瓶颈，然后我去了霍夫曼，第一次找到了我生命中从未有过的灵性感觉。

And yeah, I hit this plateau in therapy and I went to Hoffman and I found for the first time a sense of spirituality that I never had in my life.

那真的很难。

And it was really hard.

霍夫曼并不一定就是关于那个的。

Hoffman is not about that necessarily.

它更多是关于找到内在的灵性，比如与你的高我连接。

It's more about finding an inner sense of spirituality, like being connected to your higher self.

那是一种我能认同的灵性形式。

And that was like a form of spirituality I could get behind.

因为到了这个年纪，其他东西都很难真正融入。

Because everything else felt so hard to get into this late in life.

感觉就是遥不可及，而且太宏大了，你懂吗？

Like it just felt so inaccessible and like too grand, you know?

但是相信自己的灵性自我，这个我能接受。

But like believing in my spiritual self, like that's something I can get behind.

对我来说很容易。

That's easy to me.

我能看到它。

I can see that.

我能想象到它。

I can visualize that.

比如，我最高的自我是什么样的？

Like who is my highest self?

这有点像我对上帝的理解。

And like that is like my version of God in a way.

就像是我最好的自己。

It's like my best self.

而那个人就是我应该寻求指引的对象。

And that's the person I should turn to for guidance.

这给了我一生中从未有过的灵性感受。

And that gave me a sense of spirituality that I never had in my life.

然后这为我打开了相信某件事的大门。

And then it opened up the door to believing in something.

我不会……

I wouldn't...

我肯定不再是无神论者了，但我不确定自己到底相信什么，但我对一切可能性都持开放态度。

I'm definitely not an atheist anymore, but I don't necessarily know what it is I believe in, but I'm like so open to the possibilities.

我不太在乎它是否真实。

I don't really care if it's real or true.

就像，我只是想相信它，而且我对此感到坦然。

It's like, I just wanna believe it And I'm okay with that.

就是说，我不介意不知道。

Like, I'm okay with not knowing.

我只是想相信点什么。

I just wanna, like, believe in something.

人们常常有个误解，觉得无神论者什么都不信，或者没有什么道德高地或道德指南针，但事实完全不是这样。

People often think they have this misconception that atheists don't believe in anything or don't have any, like, moral high ground, I guess, or moral compass, and that's so not true.

我觉得吧，

Like, I think

我同意。

I agree.

有一种方法可以……

There's a way to...

在理查德·道金斯写的《上帝的错觉》这本书里，我……

In the the book, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins I

我也读过。

read it too.

对。

Yeah.

它开头引用了这样一句话：难道不能相信花园很美，而不相信花园底下有仙女吗？

It opens with this quote that's like, isn't it possible to believe that the garden is beautiful without believing that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

嗯。

Mhmm.

我对此深有共鸣，因为我觉得世界是美丽的。

And I really resonated with that because I'm like, the world is beautiful.

生活中有那么多美好的事物，我们可以从中找到意义，而不必相信某种更高的力量。

There there are so many, like, beautiful things about life and, like, things that we can find purpose in without having to believe in a higher power.

我一直有点灵性，但你知道，我曾反抗宗教的观念，后来又以某种方式回到了它。

I always had somewhat of a spirituality to me, but, you know, I I rebelled against this idea of religion and then I sort of found my way back to it.

我不会说那是宗教，而是灵性。

And I wouldn't say it's religion, but it's spirituality.

而且现在它被重新定义了，你知道吗？

And and it's just redefined now, you know?

让我爸那边的家人很不高兴的是，我现在成了一个有灵性追求的人，而且我很喜欢这样。

And much to my dad's family's chagrin, I'm I'm like now a spiritual person and and I love it.

有时候叛逆一点反而是好事。

Sometimes it's almost good to rebel.

就像，这几乎是健康的。

Like, it's almost healthy

对。

Yes.

你走到另一个极端，因为现在你有了那种经历，知道那意味着什么，研究它、学习它的感觉是什么，这样当你回到现在的位置时，你反而能带着更坚定的信念和更清晰的认知回来。

That you go to the other end because now you have the experience of what that means and what it feels like to study it, to learn it so that when you come back to wherever you are now, you can actually come back with more conviction and more clarity.

我觉得我们很多人对待任何价值观，不管是灵性、宗教、科学还是别的什么，任何信仰或价值观，你越是和别人争论，越想向别人证明，通常说明你对这个东西的理解还不够成熟。

I think what a lot of us do with any value, whether it's spirituality, whether it's religion, whether science, whatever it may be, any belief or value, the more you argue it against others and the more you try and prove it to others is usually a sign of your immaturity and your understanding of the thing.

而当你和它融为一体的时候，对。

Whereas when you're kind of in flow with it Yeah.

你会完全开放，接受每个人都有自己的信仰、价值观和见解，因为你意识到，是的，我理解他们说的部分，也理解我说的部分，没有谁对谁错，没有好坏，也没有绝对真理。

You are totally open to everyone having their own beliefs and values and insights because you recognize that, yeah, I get a bit of what they're saying and I get a bit of what I'm saying and neither is right or wrong or good or bad or the truth.

是的，挑战这些信念是健康的。

Yeah, it's healthy to challenge those beliefs.

我觉得对我们来说，挑战自己的信念是个很可怕的想法。

I think challenging your beliefs is such a scary idea for us.

对。

Yeah.

因为我们已经觉得周围的世界变化太快了。

Because we already feel like the world is moving so fast around us.

对。

Yeah.

以至于要往下看看，看看那些幻想是不是真的存在。

That to kind of take a look underneath and see if the fairies are there or not.

对。

Yeah.

这有点吓人。

Is kind of scary.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗，就像，哇，我相信它们，但如果它们不在呢？

You know, it's kind of like, wow, like I believe them, what if they're not there?

如果我不相信它们，我去看了，万一它们真的在呢？

And if I don't believe them and I look, what if they're there?

对。

Yeah.

所以不管怎样，都有风险。

And so either way, there's a shot.

就是没有确定性。

There's just no certainty.

每件事都有点

Everything's got something

可能发生。

possible at this point.

对。

Yeah.

一切皆有可能。

Anything is possible.

我觉得每件事里都带着一点信念。

And everything has some faith in it, I feel.

是的。

Yeah.

就像，你对任何事都得有点信念。

Like, you're having some faith in anything.

而且每件事都需要一定程度的信念。

And everything requires a level of faith.

对。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

但有时候人们会排斥这个词。

But people reject that word sometimes.

你小时候搬了大概16次家，这对你现在说的这些有什么影响吗？

How is this affected by the fact that when you were growing up, you moved like 16 times?

是的。

Yeah.

那对你现在说的这些有没有什么影响或作用？

Did that have any impact or effect on what you're saying now?

我搬了太多次家，这让我非常没有安全感。

I moved around so much and it was very destabilizing.

我为此吃了不少苦，但同时也让我变得非常适应环境，擅长社交，能很快融入新环境。

I struggled with it a lot, but at the same time, it made me a very adaptable person, and it made me good at social relationships and being able to assimilate into new environments.

所以这给了我一套我很感激的技能。

So it's given me, like, a skill set that I'm very grateful for.

但同时，我也坚决不会用这种方式来养我的孩子。

But, like, at the same time, I'm so adamant about not raising my kids that way.

我真的很羡慕那些从小在墙上刻着身高标记长大的人。

Like, I envy people that grew up with marks on the walls of their heights throughout the years.

我觉得那太美好了，就是住在一个……

Like, I think that is so beautiful, like, to live in a home that...

那是鲁迪的家。

That's Rudy's home.

鲁迪就是住……

Like, Rudy lived...

他父母现在住的房子，就是他从小长大的那个家。

Like the house his parents live in today is the house he grew up in since birth.

而且就是……

And it's like...

你一走进去就能感觉到，那里面充满了历史感，我特别喜欢那种感觉。

And you feel it when you walk in, like it has so much history and I love that feeling.

我不知道我能不能给我的孩子那样的生活，因为我的工作性质，但我会拼尽全力去做到。

And I don't know if I'm gonna be able to give my kids that life because the nature of what I do, but I'm gonna do my damn best.

我想尽可能提供更多的稳定性，因为我觉得这对养育孩子来说太重要了。

Like I wanna provide as much stability as possible because I think it is so important in raising kids.

但我觉得最近经历了一些事情，基本上让我明白，你根本无法预测任何事情。

But I feel like I've gone through some things recently that have basically shown me that like, you just can't predict anything.

就像，你根本不知道生活中会发生什么。

Like, you just don't know what's gonna happen in life.

而且，尽管你可以对自己说，我要这样对待我的孩子，我要这样那样，我不会那样做。

And like, as much as you can like say to yourself, like, I'm gonna do this with my kids, and I'm gonna blah blah blah, and I'm not gonna do that.

我要用不同的方式做事。

I'm gonna do things differently.

但生活总会给你扔些烂事，然后你得去处理，它可能会逼你做出你从未想过会做的选择。

Like, life will throw shit at you, and then you're gonna have to deal with it, and it might force you to make choices that you never thought you would make.

对。

Mhmm.

比如，我父母离婚了。

And like for example, my parents got divorced.

而且我长期以来一直执着于这种想法，就是这种事绝不会发生在我身上。

And I've for so long been obsessed with this idea of that never happening to me.

我就想，我一定要把每件事都做对，我要成为最好的伴侣，也要选最好的伴侣，这样那种事就永远不会发生。

I'm like, I'm gonna make sure I do everything right and I'm the best partner and I choose the best partner so that will never happen.

但这不是对待感情的健康方式。

And that's not a healthy way of approaching relationships.

我觉得你需要接受并坦然面对一切皆有可能这个事实。

I think you need to sort of accept this and surrender to the possibility that anything can happen.

你真的不知道未来会发生什么。

Like you really don't know.

从某种程度上说，这反而让我解脱了。

And in a way that's sort of like liberated me.

对。

Yeah.

我足够信任自己，能对自己说，你知道吗？

Where I like trust myself enough to say, you know what?

这种事是有可能发生的。

That could happen.

我有一天可能会离婚，但我会没事的。

I could get divorced one day and I'll be okay.

我会没事的，因为我妈妈挺过来了，我爸爸也挺过来了。

I will be okay because my mom was okay and my dad was okay.

我的孩子也会好好的，因为我自己好好的。

And my kids will be fine because I'm fine.

我没事。

I'm okay.

我成长得挺好的。

I turned out okay.

而且，你知道，我过去特别害怕自己有一天会像我父母那样，让我的家庭或家庭关系变得不稳定。

And and and like, you know, I think I was so afraid of this idea that I might one day destabilize my family home or my family unit in a way that my parents did.

那当然给家里带来了很多痛苦。

And that caused a lot of pain in the family, of course.

但那就是我们的痛苦。

But like, that was just our pain.

那是我们的故事。

That's our story.

其他家庭有不同的痛苦。

And other families have different pain.

而且我们都从中变得更坚强，学到了些什么。

And like, we all came out of that stronger in some way, learning something in some way.

那些经历带来的创伤塑造了我，给了我别人没有的技能。

And the traumas that I have from that experience have shaped who I am and have given me certain skill sets that other people don't have.

如果你愿意，你可以把一切都重新定义为一种超能力。

And that's like you can kind of reframe everything as like a superpower if you want to.

这很有意思。

It's fascinating.

对吧？

Right?

你会遇到一些人，他们……

You'll meet people who they...

他们的父母离婚了，他们却希望父母当初没离。

Their parents got divorced and they wish they stayed together.

对。

Yeah.

还有另一些人，父母一直在一起，但他们却希望父母离婚。

And then there's other people whose parents stayed together, but they wish they got divorced.

没错。

Exactly.

还有一些人，

And then there's people who...

他们的父母给了他们全世界所有的爱，让生活变得非常轻松，但这个人却说，你毁了我的人生，因为我没经历过什么苦难。对吧。

Whose parents gave them all the love in the world and made life really easy, and the person goes, you've ruined my life because I didn't have any hardship Right.

所以我从来没变得坚强。

And so I never got tough.

然后还有那种只给孩子严厉的爱的父母，孩子会说，哦，我练就了很好的技能。

And then you have the parents who only give their kids tough love, and the kid goes, oh, I built really good skills.

所以你看，有各种各样的版本，你没法……

And so you've just got all these versions, and you can't...

你根本不知道你孩子的心理会是什么样，他们的性格会是什么样。

You don't know what the psychology of your child is going to be and what their temperament is gonna be.

对。

No.

而且你爱他们的方式会引发一种反应。

And how you love them is going to create a reaction.

你爱他们，但他们十年后可能还是会回过头来说，你没让我吃苦，或者你爱我不够。

You could love them, and they could still turn around in ten years and be like, you didn't show me the hard way or you didn't love me enough.

这就是霍夫曼给我的启发，因为你和另外40个人或39个人在一起，每个人都来自不同的背景，年龄各异，生活经历也各不相同。

That's what Hoffman showed me because you're there with 40 other people or 39 other people and everyone's there from all walks of life, all ages, different life experiences.

有些人会说，我被爱得太多了。

Some people are like, I was loved too much.

比如我父母太爱我了，以至于我都不知道怎么独立。

Like my parents loved me so much that like, I don't know how to be independent.

我什么事都不会自己做。

I don't know how to do anything for myself.

我简直被宠坏了。

Like I was so smothered.

我被惯坏了。

I was so spoiled.

我什么事都不会自己做。

I don't know how to do anything for myself.

然后其他人会说，我父母，你知道，我爸不在身边，我妈也没怎么关心我。

And then other people are like, my parents, you know, my dad wasn't in the picture and my mom didn't show me love.

不管你的童年经历是什么样的，你总会在某些方面有点问题。

And no matter what your childhood experience was, like, you're gonna you're gonna be up in some way.

事情就是这样。

And like, it's just the way it goes.

就是，没有哪种方式是完全正确或者完全完美的。

Like, there is no way of doing it completely right or completely perfect.

而且，回到我之前说的完美主义那个话题，我已经开始放下那种完美主义了，不再要求关系或者家庭生活里的一切都完美。

And, in the theme of like perfectionism that I was talking about earlier, like I've started to let go of that perfectionism of like needing everything to be perfect in my relationship or in my family life.

我可以接受这个想法，就是，不，我只要在每时每刻尽力就好。

Like I can surrender to this idea that like, no, I'm just gonna do my best at every moment.

然后顺其自然，发生什么就是什么。

And whatever happens, happens.

那种完美主义在《河谷镇》片场是怎么体现的？

How did that perfectionism show up on the set of Riverdale?

我在拍《河谷镇》的时候开始出现恐慌发作，因为……

I like developed panic attacks through my experience on Riverdale because

你之前没有过吗？

You hadn't had them before?

没有。

No.

我之前没有过恐慌发作，现在也基本没有了。

I didn't have panic attacks before and I don't have them anymore really.

这倒不是因为别的，就是因为在一部剧里待了那么久，除了工作之外根本没有时间做别的事情。

And not because of anything other than just the nature of being on a show for that long and not having time to do anything outside of work.

就像拍电影，大概两个月就拍完了，拍完就结束了，然后你可以回到自己的生活里待一阵子。

It's like when you shoot a movie, it's like two months and you go off and you're there shooting the movie, and then you're like, okay, that was that, and I'm done, and I can go back to my life for a little bit.

但是拍一部拍了七年的电视剧，而且是那种老式的电视网剧，一年要拍十个月。

But when you're shooting a TV show for seven years, and one that's old fashioned network television where you shoot ten months out of the year.

这不仅仅是一份工作，而是一种生活方式。

It's not a job, it's a lifestyle.

而且工作时间特别长。

And then the hours are super long.

那部剧的野心也很大。

And it was a very ambitious show.

它对我们要求特别高。

It required a lot out of us.

就是……

It...

你知道，日程排得很紧，一天要拍很多场戏。

Like, you know, the schedule is really tight and you have to shoot a lot of scenes in a day.

根本没有时间做别的事。

Like, there's no time for anything.

就是早上醒来，到片场，然后就想，好，开始吧。

It's like you wake up, you get to work, and you're like, alright, let's go.

一个接一个，一个接一个。

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

就像疯了一样到处跑。

You're just like running around like a madman.

有时候连犯错的时间都没有。

There's no time for human error sometimes.

这让我很抓狂，因为比如说，你知道，我正处理一件跟工作无关的压力事情，比如个人问题。

And that would drive me crazy because let's say, you know, I'm dealing with a stressful situation that has nothing to do with work, like a personal situation.

然后有人来敲我的门，说片场已经准备好等你了。

And then I have someone knocking on my door and be like, they're ready for you on set.

我正为那些事哭呢。

And I'm like crying because of the situation that I'm dealing with.

现在妆也花了。

And now my makeup's ruined.

又得花三十分钟在化妆椅上让他们帮我补妆。

And that's another thirty minutes in the makeup chair for them to fix me.

现在整个片场的人都在等。

And now everyone on set's waiting.

我觉得压力很大，因为是我拖慢了进度。

And now I feel the pressure that I'm the reason why we're behind.

天哪。

Oh my god.

那环境就像高压锅一样，一直没停过，因为根本没时间处理那些事。

It was like a pressure cooker environment constantly because there is no time to deal with any of those things.

所以我不得不服用医生开的劳拉西泮，这样才能让自己麻木，才能去上班。

So I had to get prescribed lorazepam so that I could literally numb myself and be able to show up and work.

因为如果不这样，一旦陷入恐慌，开始哭、喘不过气，我就不知道会怎样了。

Because otherwise, if I let myself get into this panic and I start crying and hyperventilating, I don't know.

我不太记得拍《河谷镇》一天要花多少钱，但要是重拍一天或者什么的，那可是成千上万美元的开销。

I don't remember exactly how much it would cost a day to shoot Riverdale, but we're talking thousands and thousands of dollars that it required if you had to reshoot a day or something.

如果缺一天，或者请病假，就会给制作方造成很大损失。

If missed a day, if you call in sick, you're costing production a lot of money.

所以随之而来的压力特别大。

So there's this pressure that comes with that.

到某个时候我真的撑不住了。

And I just like couldn't handle it at a certain point.

那真的很难熬。

It was a lot.

所以我的完美主义在那时候特别严重，我总觉得自己必须时刻保持最佳状态，看起来也要最好。

So my perfectionism came up a lot with that where I like, I just felt like I needed to be on all the time and at my best and looking my best.

你知道吗，我在拍《河谷镇》的时候有饮食失调。

And you know, I had an eating disorder when I was on Riverdale.

我高中时就有这个问题，但那时候我才真正开始面对它。

I had it since high school, but that's when I really started to, like, come face to face with it.

我感觉自己失去了控制，因为你知道，我穿着角色的服装，而她穿衣服的风格跟我平时想穿的不一样。

I felt a lack of control because, you know, I'm wearing a costume for a character that dresses differently than I would want to dress in my daily life.

她穿紧身裙、迷你裙和高跟鞋，还要露肚子，露腰什么的。

And she's wearing tight dresses and mini skirts and heels and and, you know, showing my stomach, my little midriff or whatever.

如果那天我觉得自己胀气或者状态不好，我还得穿让自己更难受、更没自信的衣服。

And if I felt bloated or if I didn't feel good about myself that day, like I had to wear something that made me feel worse and made me feel super insecure.

这种完美主义在我和身体的关系上表现得特别明显。

And that perfectionism pattern showed up a lot through my relationship with my body.

我有时候会因此恐慌发作，觉得自己很恶心，但又必须上镜，就是没法接受自己的样子。

And I would just, you know, sometimes have panic attacks about that, a feeling so disgusting and needing to be on camera and just not being able to accept the way that I looked.

我能想象那有多沉重，因为就像你说的，你不能随便请假不拍。

I can imagine how heavy that is because, like you said, you can't just call it in.

你不能。不行。

You can't No.

比如说，我今天不去了。

Say I'm not coming in today.

你不能推掉。

You can't push it off.

你也不能马上解决。

You can't fix it quickly.

没有别的办法，只能硬着头皮去面对，即使你状态很差，不想去也得去。

There's no solution apart from having to go through with it even when you're in a state where you don't want to.

我只有在不能……的时候才会恐慌发作。

I only have the panic attack if I'm not...

如果我觉得，不管什么原因，我不能自由地表达当下的情绪。

If I feel for whatever reason that I'm not allowed to feel the emotion that I'm feeling freely.

比如，我想哭，但我知道我不能哭，那就会引发我的恐慌发作。

So like if I'm feeling like I wanna cry and I know that I can't, that will cause my panic attack.

因为你没有空间去真正体验和感受它。

Because you don't have the space to actually experience and feel it.

没错。

Exactly.

但如果我有空间，比如有人告诉我你有一个小时，我会说，太好了。

But like if I did have the space, if I was told you have an hour, I'd be like, great.

我要哭一会儿。

I'm gonna cry for a bit.

发泄出来。

Let it out.

一个小时后我就没事了。

I'll be good to go in an hour.

但你没有那个条件。

But you don't have that.

顺便说一句，这真的很健康。

And that's really healthy by the way.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

就是这样，

And that's how

我平时就是这么处理事情的。

I like to deal with things in my day to day life.

我完全不介意哭一会儿，发泄一下，因为有时候就是这么简单。

I have no issue just like crying it out for a bit, like letting it out because sometimes that's all it is.

就是，你只需要释放那股能量，而我当时就是没有那个空间去做。

Like, you just need to release the energy, and I just didn't have the space to do that.

所以就像……

So it's like...

就像身体里憋了个高压锅一样。

It creates this like pressure cooker in your body.

然后我不得不吃点什么来撑过这一天。

And then like I had to take something in order to get through the day.

是的。

Yeah.

但我不喜欢依赖那个，除非实在没办法，因为我宁愿直接去感受它。

But I don't like to lean on that unless I absolutely have to because I would rather just feel it.

我接受去感受它。

I'm okay with feeling it.

对。

Yeah.

你不想麻木自己，我不想——

You don't want to numb it out I don't

不想麻木自己。

wanna numb it out.

不。

No.

但后来这变成了我撑下去必须要做的事。

But it it became like what I had to do to get through.

你是怎么熬过来的？

How did you get to the other side of that?

节目结束了。

The show ended.

对，确实是这样。

Right, literally.

哇。

Wow.

但并不是每天都那样。

But like not every day was like that.

那是一种特殊情况，但我确实很享受在节目里的经历。

That Yeah, was a of specific kind of situation, but like I did love my experience on the show.

别误会我的意思。

Don't get me wrong.

我回想那段时光，心里还是很怀念的。

I look back on that time very fondly.

那时候就是年轻，生活和工作的时间都不由自己掌控。

It was just like being young and not having control over your schedule in your life.

那真的很难熬。

That was really hard.

听你这么说，我在想，你也是一直倡导身体自信的，然后你自己却在经历这些。

As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, you know, you've been the face of like body positivity as well, and then you're dealing with this.

而且，我觉得我们现在生活的这个时代，网上对女性身材的苛责简直没完没了。

And on top of that, I feel like we're living at a time where the scrutiny on women's bodies just continues online to be terrible.

对。

Yeah.

几乎一点好转都没有。

It almost doesn't get better.

而且感觉你得同时扛着所有这些事，比如，我想对自己的身体有信心。

And it's almost like you gotta hold all these things at the same time, which is like, I wanna be confident in my body.

同时，即使我对自己的身材没信心，我也得去上班。

At the same time, I have to be at work even when I don't feel confident in my body.

而且，社会上对女性身材的评论一直没停过。

And on top of that, there's constant commentary on women's bodies in general.

其实我从来没有受到过别人对我身材的批评，除了我自己。

I never actually experienced criticism about my body from anybody but myself.

我在网上也没看到什么让我特别受刺激的内容。

I didn't see anything online that was like triggering to me.

对。

Yeah.

一直都是我自己对自己的标准。

It was always just my own internal standards for myself.

没错。

Right.

而且，我的身体也在变化。

And also, my body was changing.

比如，我现在看那时候的照片，确实看起来不一样了。

Like, I look at pictures of myself then and I I do look different.

我的身体当时确实不一样。

My body was different.

这在二十出头的女性身上很常见。

This happens a lot as a woman in your early twenties.

就是身体会变化。

Like, body changes.

我当时真的不知道该怎么应对。

And I and I was like, I didn't know how to deal with it.

感觉特别不知所措。

It was very overwhelming.

这也是我最初去接受治疗的原因，我开始看一位专门治疗饮食失调的治疗师。

That's what led me to therapy in the first place was I started seeing a therapist specialized in eating disorders.

她给我配了一位营养师，他们像团队一样合作。

And she paired me with a nutritionist, and they worked sort of as a team.

我是分开见他们的，但他们一起合作，帮我重新建立了和食物的健康关系，方法是重新引入一些我之前会避免的东西，比如碳水化合物。

I would see them separately, but they worked together and helped me sort of reestablish a healthy relationship to food by reintroducing certain things that I would avoid, like carbs.

我当时真的很害怕吃面包。

I was like really afraid of eating bread.

我的营养师慢慢地重新把面包引入我的生活，她说，好的，我们让你早上吃一片吐司。

And my nutritionist like slowly reintroduced bread in my life and was like, okay, we're gonna have you have like a piece of toast in the morning.

我当时想，天哪，那会让我发胖的。

And I was like, oh my god, that's gonna make me gain weight.

你知道吗，我当时就是那么害怕一片吐司。

You know, like I was so afraid of a piece of toast.

他们两个人一起合作，一个负责心理方面，另一个负责营养方面，效果真的非常棒。

And those two working together, one with the psychological aspect and the other with the nutritional aspect, was incredible.

我差不多一年就真的好了。

And I literally was cured in like a year.

营养方面之所以这么重要，是因为我暴食然后催吐的原因就是，我太避免碳水化合物了，以至于一天中某个时候，我路过零食店，就会塞进好多碳水化合物。

The nutritional aspect was so important because the reason I was binging and then purging is because I would avoid carbs so much that there'd be a certain part in the day where I'd walk by crafty and I'd just stuff my face with so many carbs.

然后我就会觉得恶心，然后就去催吐。

And then I'd feel disgusting and then I'd purge.

我之所以那样做，完全是因为我在剥夺自己。

And the only reason I was doing that is because I was depriving myself.

所以

So

她说，如果你允许自己吃想吃的东西，你会发现其实你并没有那么想吃。

she was like, if you give yourself that permission to eat the things that you want, you'll find that you don't want them that badly.

我开始照做，结果……

And I started doing it and it...

她完全说对了。

Like, was completely right.

如果我想吃什么，就让自己吃，相信我不会吃过头。

If I wanted something, would just let myself eat it and trust that I'm not gonna go overboard.

我就是相信自己不会失控，而我确实可以相信自己。

Like, I just trusted myself that I wouldn't go overboard and I could trust myself.

对。

Yeah.

然后它就没那么诱人了，因为它不再是那个被禁止的东西了。

Then it wasn't as tempting because it wasn't this forbidden thing.

本期节目由Wayfair赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Wayfair.

家应该是一个像避难所一样的地方，一个真正反映你个性的空间，但要在风格、预算和无数选择之间找到平衡，确实不容易。

Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are, but it can be challenging to balance style, budget, and endless options.

我一直在想办法改善家里的空间和谐感，但这并不容易。

I'm always looking for ways to improve the harmony of space at home, but it isn't easy.

我想要一些能让我感到踏实，又能经得起时间考验的家具。

I want pieces that can ground me and still hold up to the test of time.

我去了Wayfair，找到了一款漂亮的实木床头柜和餐边柜，我非常喜欢。

I went on Wayfair and found a stunning solid wood nightstand and credenza I love.

现在我的卧室成了放松身心的完美场所。

Now my bedroom is the perfect place to wind down.

这两件家具都非常结实，给人一种踏实的感觉，而且完全改变了我家的氛围。

Both pieces are incredibly sturdy, grounding, and completely transformed the energy of my space.

另外，你还可以通过Wayfair认证购物，那里的产品专家会仔细审查每件商品的质量和功能，让你购物更放心。

Plus, you can shop with Wayfair verified, where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality so you can shop with more confidence.

如果你觉得组装这些家具很麻烦，Wayfair还可以帮你送货、安装和组装。

And if putting it all together sounds like a headache, Wayfair can handle delivery, installation, and assembly.

今天就加入Wayfair奖励计划，每次购物都能获得5%的返现，让你下次升级家居时省下一笔钱。

Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade.

前往wayfair.com，选购所有家居用品。

Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home.

网址是wayfair.com。

That's wayfair.com.

Wayfair，各种风格，各种家居。

Wayfair, every style, every home.

有一句古老的智慧说，执着和厌恶是同一枚硬币的两面。

There's this ancient piece of wisdom that says attachment and aversion are two sides of the same coin.

所以要么就执着于它，好像那就是我们想要的，要么就是，哦，不。

So either attach to it, like that's all we want, or we're like, oh, no.

我根本不想碰它。

I'm not gonna touch it at all.

然后这两件事其实是一样的，它们是一样的。

And it's like those two things are the same They're the same.

对。

Yeah.

而你说的那种更平衡的方式，回到我们一开始一直在聊的，就是那种能力，可以说，我可以吃一点，没关系，这不会改变我的人生。

Whereas what you're saying, which is this more balanced approach, going back to what we've been talking about since the beginning, is like that ability to say, well, I can have a little bit and that's okay, and that's not gonna change my life.

但如果我回避它，那我对它就是这样，我特别爱吃甜食。

But if I avoid it, then that that's what I'm like with, I have a massive sweet tooth.

对。

Yeah.

而且我是世界上最爱吃甜食的人。

And so I have the worst sweet tooth of all time.

我可以撑过一整天，从早到晚都没问题。

And I can get through the whole day, like from morning till evening, I'm fine.

但到了半夜的时候

And then at midnight

哦不，那时候就来了。

Oh no, that's when it hits.

比如我醒着或者在外面旅行什么的，它就会发作，然后我能点个一千二、一千五卡路里的全是糖的东西。

Like it will hit if I'm up and I'm traveling or whatever, And I can order like 1,200 calories, 1,500 calories of just like sugar

我根本控制不住，直接狂吃。

I can't just devour.

没有……

Without...

就像，晚饭必须得用这个来收尾……

Like, need to finish dinner with this...

甜点总是要有的。

A sweet treat always.

就连你发给我的那个小视频，也是你在吃甜点。

And even in the little sent something to me was you eating dessert.

对。

Yes.

开心果冰淇淋。

The pistachio ice cream.

太好吃了。

It's so good.

我必须要吃。

I have to.

我必须要吃。

I have to.

就像我当初为了《宇宙的巨人》训练的时候，也是这样……

Like even when I was training for masters of the universe, was like...

我们在减脂期的时候，我就说，求求了，别把我的黑巧克力拿走。

When we were in the cutting phase, I was like, please just don't take my dark chocolate.

比如，把我的米饭减半，但别把我晚上最后那点黑巧克力拿走。

Like, cut my rice in half, don't take my dark chocolate at the end of the night.

我需要那个。

I need that.

我需要我的小犒劳。

I need my little treat.

但这说明你可以那样做。

But it shows you can do it that way.

对。

Yeah.

这就是重点。

Like, that's the point.

这对我有用。

It works for me.

我不知道这有没有用。

I don't know if it works

对所有人来说。

for everyone.

你知道吗？

Know?

我觉得可能有些人更容易上瘾，需要在某些事情上对自己更严格一些。

I think maybe some people have more addictive personalities and need to be a little bit more strict with things.

我不确定。

I don't know.

说实话，我从来没有对任何东西上瘾过。

I've never had an addictive personality, to be honest, with anything.

所以我一直很擅长在事情上划清界限。

So I've always been good at you know, being able to draw the line when it comes to things.

我在想那些年轻女性，她们可能会仰慕你，听你说话，想在某些方面成为你那样的人。

I'm thinking about all the young women who would probably look up to you, listen to you, wanna be like you in some way.

如果她们现在正与饮食失调作斗争，或者对自己的身材感到困扰，你会对她们说什么？

What would you say to them if they're currently struggling with an eating disorder, they're struggling with body image?

那就去看心理治疗。

See therapy for it.

我知道这个回答很直接，但说实话，我就是这么走过来的——我一个人做不到，我需要帮助。

I know that's a very straightforward answer, but like that's personally how I was able to get through it is I couldn't do it alone, I needed help.

我需要专业的帮助，因为有时候你身边的人反而会让你重新陷入那个循环。

I needed professional help because sometimes the people around you sort of send you right back into that loop.

人们会说一些话。

People will say things.

那些不懂的人会对你说一些话，反而会助长你那些消极的思维方式。

People who don't know any better will say things to you that will actually encourage those negative ways of thinking.

他们会评论你的身材，或者说，当你看起来瘦的时候，天哪，我记得我情绪最低落的时候，瘦了很多，因为我不吃东西。

They'll comment on your body or say, you know, when you do look thin, God, like I remember when I was my most depressed, I lost a lot of weight because I wasn't eating.

我不吃东西不是因为我在减肥。

And I wasn't eating because I was trying to lose weight.

我就是没胃口，所以不吃。

I was just not eating because I had no appetite.

我真的没有胃口。

I genuinely had no appetite.

而且有很多人跟我说，你看起来太棒了。

And the amount of people that were like, you look incredible.

你看起来美极了。

You look amazing.

你在做什么，普拉提吗？

What are you doing, Pilates?

我就说，不是。

And I'm like, no.

我其实很痛苦。

I'm like miserable.

我没有在锻炼。

I'm not working out.

我也没有好好吃饭。

I'm not eating well.

我根本就没吃东西。

I'm not eating at all.

我也没有好好照顾自己。

I'm not taking care of myself.

而那时候却是我收到最多赞美的时候。

And that was when I would get the most compliments.

那种评论最容易让你陷入消极的思维，让你觉得，好吧，这就是我最好看的时候。

Those are like the kinds of comments that send you back into a negative way of thinking where you think, okay, this is when I look my best.

那我以前是什么样子？

So what did I look like before?

你们以前怎么看我？

What did you think of me before?

我是不是……

Was I...

然后当别人不再这么说的时候，你就会想，哦，我胖了。

And then when people stop saying that to you, you're like, oh, I'm fat.

我觉得寻求专业帮助很重要，因为他们真的知道怎么跟你说话才能让你听进去，因为有时候身边的人只是在助长你同样的思维模式。

I think it's important to get professional help because they actually know how to talk to you in a way that gets through because sometimes people around you are just encouraging the same patterns of thinking.

天哪。

Gosh.

那真是一个恶性循环，一直转啊转，因为，是的，你感觉很好，但你在对自己做不好的事情。

And that that is like a vicious cycle that just keeps going around and around and around because, yeah, you feel good, but you're doing something bad to yourself.

对。

Yes.

然后当事情不如意的时候，你又感觉糟糕。

And then you feel bad when whatever it may be.

是的。

Yeah.

然后就这样一直循环下去。

And it just keeps going around and around.

我在想，你现在和《河谷镇》的同学们关系这么亲密，我相信……

I wondered, you're so close with all your Riverdale classmates now, I believe as

也是。

well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你们在片场的时候，有没有机会聊这些？还是说基本没聊过？

Did you have space to have these conversations when you were on set or not really?

当然有。

Definitely.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, you did?

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

我觉得尤其是和莉莉，因为她当时也在经历类似的事情，而且她也一直很坦诚地聊过这个。

I think especially with Lily because she was dealing with a similar thing and she's been very open about that too.

她也在那部剧里演过。

She's been on the show too.