Riz Ahmed：如何平息内心的批评者（并建立真正的自我价值）

我也在努力应对这个问题。

And and I'm grappling with it too.

所以这次采访让我特别兴奋，因为《Bait》里的主题非常普遍，无论你做什么都适用。

And that's why this interview is so exciting to me because the themes in bait are so universal no matter what you do.

就像你说的，不管是在LinkedIn上找工作，还是只是想哄妈妈开心，或者别的什么，这些都包含在里面。

And like you said, whether someone's applying for a job on LinkedIn or whether they're just trying to make their mom happy or whatever it may be, it's it's all in there.

对我来说，我开始意识到这一点，你也会有这种感觉，但作为演员，情况有点不同，因为大家都把你和你的角色等同起来。

And so for me, I started to realize that, and you'd feel this way, but as an actor, it's slightly different because with an actor, everyone thinks you are your roles.

对，就像如果有人见到克里斯·海姆斯沃斯，他们会以为他是雷神。

So, right, like if someone meets Chris Hemsworth, they think he's Thor.

而且，他们会觉得他们能见到本人。

And, like, they think they're getting a Yeah.

他们会以为能跟雷神合影。

Picture They think they're getting a picture with Thor.

如果你见到小罗伯特·唐尼，你会觉得你是在跟钢铁侠在一起。

If you see Robert Downey Jr, you think you're with Iron Man.

就像，那就是，你知道，托尼·斯塔克。

Like, that's that's, you know, Tony Stark.

就像，你爱的是那个人。

Like, that's who you're in love with.

你并不是，你不知道小罗伯特·唐尼是谁。

You're not you don't know who Robert Downey Jr.

就像里兹·阿迈德一样。

Is, same as Riz Ahmed.

而对你来说，公开和私下的自我，有一种真实感，有一种一致性。

Whereas for you, the public and private self, there's an authenticity, there's a coherence to it.

是的。

Yes.

确实如此，我在现实生活中这样做，在网上也这样做，但我也是一个完整的人，有很多其他的欲望和复杂性。

There is in the sense of, yes, I do this in real life and I do it online, but I'm also a complete human being with lots of other desires and lots of other complexities.

所以我尽量做的是，这对我自己帮助最大，就是，我尽量不在人前说什么高深的话，因为人们来参加晚宴，他们期待杰伊会说出一些金句。

So like what I try and do as much as I can, which helps me more than helps anyone else is like, I try not to say anything profound when I'm around people because it's people come over for dinner party, they're expecting Jay's gonna be dropping some gems.

我其实是最普通的那种人。

I'm like, literally the plainest.

你会说，对，就是曼联进球了那种感觉。

You're like, yeah, just come on United scores.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我真的会开始聊足球，因为我只是想，我不想迎合那个我觉得自己已经变成的刻板印象。

I would literally start talking about football because all I'm trying to do is like, I don't wanna play up to the caricature of what I think I've become.

就像喜剧演员，觉得自己必须一直搞笑一样。

It's like a comedian that just thinks they have to be funny all the time.

所以我会觉得，天哪，我嘴里说出来的每句话都得很有深度。

So I can feel like, oh God, I've just gotta be, everything that comes out my mouth has to be profound.

这不仅不现实，而且根本不可能。

And not only is that not realistic, it's not possible.

我是个普通人。

I'm a normal person.

我不是每句话都那么深刻、能改变人生，我也不想那样。

Like not everything I say is like deep and life changing and I don't even wanna be that.

所以这是我一直在面对的一个很有意思的事情。

And so it's this fascinating thing that I'm always dealing with.

如果这样能让你好受点，杰，我们相处这么久，你一直觉得我很肤浅吗？

If it makes you feel better, Jay, the time we've spent, have you always felt to me to be very superficial?

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常确定。

Very sure.

知道这就是你想听的。

Know that's what you wanna hear.

对。

Yeah.

但确实，我觉得我的重点是，我总是在某种程度上通过制造打破形象的瞬间来弥补这一点。

But yeah, so I think my point is I'm always in one sense compensating for that by creating moments of breaking the image.

你知道吗，有人跟我说过一句很有意思的话，某种程度上启发了整个《Bait》这个节目。

You know, somebody said something really interesting to me that in a way inspired the whole show of bait.

对吧？

Right?

就是那种感觉，对我们所有人来说，生活就像一场试镜。

It was this one thing was this feeling of life for all of us feels like an audition.

还有一点就是，你的公开形象和私下自我之间的距离，就是你背负的羞耻感的量。

And the other thing was the distance between your public and private self is the amount of shame that you carry.

你希望别人怎么看你，或者别人怎么看你，和没人在看时你真实的样子之间的距离。

The distance between how you wanna be seen or how people see you and who you are when no one's watching.

我们都在活着的这场表演，其实就是在衡量羞耻感。

That performance that we are all living in, that's actually about that's a measurement of shame.

我当时就想，我要在那个点上做点什么。

And I was like, I wanna do something in that spot.

对我来说，在你自己这两个版本之间的那个空间，大概十年前开始在我身上变得特别明显。

And for me, in that that space between those two versions of yourself, that space really started opening up for me a lot about ten years ago.

当我在美国开始更有名，在这里做一些工作，比如参与《星球大战》这样的项目时，那种感觉就特别矛盾，你知道吗，外界对我的看法和实际情况简直天差地别。

When I started to become more known in America doing some work here and doing things like Star Wars, that is when it just felt so at odds, you know, the perception and the reality couldn't be more different.

这件事既让人压力大，又很荒谬，但同时也挺搞笑的。

And that's something that's stressful, absurd, but also kinda funny.

所以我想把自己从那种羞耻感中解放出来，也希望邀请其他人一起解放自己，通过真正尝试去缩小公众形象和私下自我之间的距离。

And so I wanted to kinda liberate myself of that shame, hopefully invite other people to liberate themselves of of that shame as well by by actually trying to collapse that distance between the public and private self.

所以我一直是个演员。

So I'm always an actor.

如果我做一个节目，把我所有的脆弱和神经质都拿出来，然后笑着面对它们，把它们展示出来，会怎么样？

What if I make a show that's taking all my vulnerabilities and neuroses and and laugh about them and put them out there?

这个节目里有很多内容直接来自我的成长经历。

And there's so much in the show that's really directly from my upbringing.

里面有那个光头党的时刻，对。

There's that skinhead moment Mhmm.

算是吧。

A version of it.

有一次我在伦敦北部的肯蒂什镇论坛为武当派乐队做暖场演出时，突然惊恐发作。

I had a panic attack once when I was supporting Wu Tang Clan in concert at Kentish Town Forum in North London.

我们重新拍摄了我惊恐发作的场景，就在肯蒂什镇，我说，我想在同一个地方拍。

We refilmed me having a panic attack at I Kentish Town said, I wanna do the same place.

我想冲进同一条小巷，在那里经历同样的惊恐发作。

I wanna burst out into the same alleyway and have the same panic attack there.

甚至，你知道，英国安全部门，军情五处和军情六处，都在招募我的角色。

Even, you know, the British security services, MI five and MI six recruit recruiting my character.

他们确实试图招募过我。

They've tried to do that with me.

真不敢相信。

Can't believe that.

是的。

Yeah.

那之后，我作为演员更有名了，他们好几次联系我，问我想不想帮他们做宣传。

That's a After crazy I became more known as an actor, they've reached out several times saying, do you wanna help us with messaging?

你想坐下来聊聊吗？

Do you wanna sit down?

我说，不。

I was like, no.

我可不想浪费时间。

I'm gonna waste time.

你看。

Look.

别掺和这事儿，兄弟。

Getting involved, mate.

不。

No.

不。

No.

谢谢。

Thank you.

但我只是想把那些困惑和矛盾的瞬间都拿出来，试着把它们展现出来。

But I just tried to take all these kind of moments of confusion and contradiction and and and try and put them out there.

因为就像你说的，公众形象和私下自我之间的差距，可能会让人感觉像被束缚住一样。

Because like you said, that the gap between your public and private self can feel like a straight jacket.

我觉得我们都在经历这些。

And I think we're all doing it.

不一定非得是你或我这样。

You don't have to be you or me.

就像我说的，现在感觉我们都在某种程度上表演着。

Like I said, we're all kind of performing, it feels like these days.

对。

Yeah.

我感受到了这些挑战，而且我很喜欢你刚才分享的那个想法，就是公众形象和私下自我之间的差距，羞耻感有多大或多深。我觉得最大的挑战是当你永远无法离开那个舞台的时候。

And I feel the challenges, and I love the idea, the one that you shared just now, this gap between your public and private self, how big shame is or how deep the shame your And experience I think that the biggest challenge becomes when you never leave the stage.

所以每个人都要表演，工作中要表演，和家人在一起也要表演。

And so everyone has to perform, everyone has to perform at work, everyone has to perform with family.

你知道，生活中总有些场合你不得不去表演。

You know, there there's gonna be places in your life where you have to perform.

生活就是这样。

Life is that way.

但如果你从不走下舞台，觉得台上的表演就是你自己，代表了你的价值，那你就真的被困住了，因为你觉得从舞台上得到的价值就是你的全部价值。

But if you never leave the stage and you feel like your performance on stage is who you are and is reflective of your worth, that feels like when you're really stuck because now you're saying the value I get from being on the stage is all the value I have.

尤其是当你走下舞台后，还尽量让自己变得无聊透顶。

And especially if when you leave the stage, you're trying to be as boring as possible.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I'm trying to say?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你尽量让自己显得不完美，甚至有点糟糕。

You're trying to be as imperfect as impossible.

什么是爱？

What is love?

哪里是你的安全港湾？

What is your safe place?

哪些关系让你感到安心？

What are your safe relationships?

去那个你不需要表演的地方，在那里你可以做那个乱七八糟、情绪化、神经质、无聊的自己。

To that place where you don't have to perform, where you get to be the messy, chaotic, neurotic, boring version of yourself.

所以奇怪的事情就发生了。

And so these weird things happen.

爱和安全的地方，就应该是这样的。

It's like the place of love and safety is a place where and it should be like this.

你知道吗，我的表兄弟们会笑话我做的事。

You know, my cousins, they laugh about what I do.

你和我其中一个表兄弟是朋友。

You are friends with one of my cousins.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

一直一起踢足球，大概有十五年了。

Always play football together, like, fifteen years.

没错。

Exactly.

对吧？

Right?

但我觉得我爱那个和表兄弟们的WhatsApp群的原因是，当我获得奥斯卡提名时，其中一个表兄弟真的只是说，哦。

But what I think I love about that WhatsApp group with my cousins is when I got nominated for an Oscar for acting, one of my cousins genuinely was like, okay.

酷。

Cool.

就像，那有什么大不了的？

Like, what is that a big deal?

那是不是就像我获得区域月度最佳员工奖一样？

Is that like when I won regional employee of the month?

我正要说，呃，不，其实那不像获得区域月度最佳员工奖。

I was about to say, like, well, no, it's actually not like winning regional employee of the month.

然后另一个表兄弟插进来说，不。

And another cousin came in and went, no.

那不一样，因为你真的赢得了那个奖。

It's not like that because you actually won that award.

在那个月里。

During the month.

他没赢。

He didn't win.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

而且这很健康。

And it's that's that's healthy.

这很好。

That's that's good.

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

有一个安全的地方，在那里那些事情不重要，表现无关紧要，但可能是不平衡的。

To have your safe place be one where those things don't matter, where the performance is immaterial, but it can be lopsided.

对吧？

Right?

这就是为什么人们会沉迷于在外面得到别人的认可和夸奖。

That's why people get addicted to being out there and getting a pat on the back.

我们不仅仅是想被喜欢或被认可，就像设下的诱饵一样，是为了成为不是自己的那个人。

Not only are we trying to be liked or validated, it's like what bait again is set up for is trying to be something you're not.

所以，很明显，你的角色想成为下一个詹姆斯·邦德，但这其实跟邦德本身没什么关系。

So, obviously, your character's trying to become the next James Bond, and it's not really about Bond.

这种想法就是我想成为不是我自己的那个人。

It's this idea of I'm trying to be something I'm not.

我觉得这比单纯想被喜欢更难，因为之前你只是想让别人喜欢真实的你，而现在你想让别人喜欢一个你永远成为不了的人。

And I think that is even more difficult than just trying to be liked because before there's one version of you trying to be liked for who you are, and now you're trying to be liked for someone you'll never be.

这就更复杂了，因为你得去模仿别人的特质、性格、穿着打扮等等。

And that's like an even more complicated place to be because now you're taking on traits, personality types, clothing, whatever.

说实话，我有点失望你今天没穿燕尾服来。

I mean, I'm half disappointed you didn't show up in a tux today.

你知道的。

You know that.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，对其他人来说，坐地铁、穿得普通就行，但在这里，我终于可以不用那么讲究了。

Like, it's like for everyone else, the subway takes, you show up in a Everyone else have to be, this is where I get to be boring.

你一点都不普通，看起来很棒。

You're not boring, look great.

不过确实，这种想成为别人的想法，我觉得就像金手铐，是社会的毒药。我记得我刚开始的时候，离开修道院去公司上班，只是为了付账单、活下去，我当时心里想，这个地方在试图把我变成另一个人。

But yeah, it's like, but that idea of trying to be someone we're not, I find that to be like the golden handcuffs, the drug of society where I remember when I started, when I left the monastery and I started working in the corporate world just to pay the bills and survive, I remember thinking to myself, this place is trying to make me someone that I'm not.

是的。

Yeah.

我可以在那里待三十年，变成一个不是自己的人，可能成为合伙人，可能赚到钱，随便怎样。

And I could spend thirty years here becoming someone that I'm not, could become partner, could make money, whatever.

这就是人们要面对的挑战，因为我们很幸运，能通过工作表达自己，讲故事什么的。

And that's the challenge people having to work with because we're lucky we get to express who we are through our work and tell stories and everything.

但当我想到有人像这样，杰，你知道的，里兹，我每天都要做那些事。

But when I think about someone who's like, Jay, I've got, you know, Riz, that's what I've gotta do every day.

就像我必须成为另一个人。

Like I have to be someone I'm not.

你觉得我们每个人都有一个本质的核心，然后说，这就是你吗？

Do you think that we all have an essential essence and go, this is who you are?

就像我说的，我从小就在不同的身份之间切换，在学校穿校服，在家又是另一副样子，和朋友出去就穿锐步经典款和假范思哲，简直是在换装、换口音、换性格。

Like I said, I grew up code switching with these very different sides to myself wearing a school uniform at school and then at home and then Reebok classics and fake Versace out with my friends, literally changing costumes, accent, and personality.

那其实是一种表演。

It was a form of acting.

现在我想把所有这些融合在一起，比如做《Bait》或者我的《哈姆雷特》版本，把不同的东西放在同一个地方。

Now I try and bring all of that together, making things like bait or my version of Hamlet or whatever, where we bring these different things together in one place.

我们真的有一个本质的核心吗？

Do we have an essential center?

难道不都是环境和处境决定的吗？

Isn't it just about our circumstances and our environment?

杰，我这是在让你说点有深度的话呢。

This is when I'm asking you to say something profound, Jay.

我需要你帮我解决这个问题。

I need you to help me out with this.

你怎么看这件事？

What's your take on this?

你觉得我们是不是有一个核心的自我，就像这样，这是你的本质，那也是你的本质？

Do you think we have, like, okay, this is you at your core, and that's you at your core?

我相信生活更多是关于你构建的想法、故事和叙事的集合与连接，而不是一个一直存在的核心。

I believe that life is more about a collection and connection of ideas and stories and narratives that you've built as opposed to a center that was always the case.

对，没错。

And Right.

说起来容易，但做起来真的很难。

It can sound easy to say it, but actually it's really hard.

我总是跟别人说，我既热爱僧侣的智慧，也热爱建立媒体帝国，既想做一个充满爱心的伴侣，也想做一个好朋友。

Like, always say to people, I'm as much in love with monk wisdom as I am with building a media empire, as I am with being a loving partner, as I am with a good friend.

我热爱自己的所有这些部分。

Like I'm like in love with all of those parts of myself.

我也在努力接受所有这些。

And I'm like trying to become okay with all of those things.

那些看起来矛盾的东西。

Those things that are seen as contradictions.

对。

Correct.

而且很矛盾，感觉它们不搭。

And paradoxical and they feel like they don't mesh.

但我觉得，如果每个人都坐下来问问自己是谁，我想我们内心都有矛盾。

But I'm like, if everyone sat down and asked themselves who they were, I think we all have paradoxes within that.

我们被教导说，我是个会计。

We've been taught to say, I'm an accountant.

我结婚了。

I'm married.

我是印度教徒。

I'm Hindu.

我就是那样的人。

I'm whatever it is.

我们被教导要用很简单的标签来定义自己，但这些标签其实很不完整。

Like, we've been taught to have very simple labels, which are very, you know, incomplete.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得找到自己并不是说要固定在某一条路上。

And I guess it's like less about finding yourself means being in one lane.

对。

Yeah.

我不相信那种说法。

I don't believe in that.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我们每个人都有很多不同的面向，这很人性化，也很普遍，而且在某种程度上是健康的。

I think that having all these different sides to who we are is is human and universal and healthy in a way.

过去大概十年里，我确实踏上了一段旅程，努力从更个人的角度去创作。

Over the last ten years or so, I kinda really went on this journey of trying to make work from a more personal place.

我刚进入这个行业时，总觉得必须证明自己不只是为了喜欢而做。

When I came into this game, I felt like for some reason I had to justify it beyond just myself enjoying it.

现在我觉得，其实我的快乐就是正当的。

Now I'm like, actually, my joy is valid.

你知道，快乐，如果别人也能从我的作品里获得快乐，那也是正当的。

You know, joy and if other people take joy from my work, that's valid as well.

但我以前总觉得，这必须得有个更宏大的目的。

But I always felt like it's gotta be a have a greater purpose.

对吧？

Right?

对我来说，那就是努力去拓展文化。

And for me, that was about trying to stretch culture.

这种想法就是一次一个人，一场电影放映，一场演出，慢慢打开人们的心扉和思想，让他们体验到原本以为自己无法共鸣的东西，但实际上，哇，我在里面看到了自己。

This idea of one person at a time, one film screening, one performance at a time, opening people's hearts and minds to an experience that they didn't think they could relate to, but actually, wow, I recognize myself in it.

就像，我以前特别喜欢看《王冠》。

It's like, was a big fan of watching The Crown.

对。

Mhmm.

你知道看《王冠》的时候，你会突然觉得，我就是英国女王。

And you know when you're watching The Crown, you're suddenly like, I'm the queen of England.

那就是我。

That's me.

我就是她。

I'm her.

我完全理解，故事能做到这种神奇的身份互换。

I totally get, you know, how it's this amazing body swap that story can achieve.

对吧？

Right?

所以，为了打开人们的心扉，让他们意识到我们都是一样的，我们都是一体的，从而以这种方式拓展文化。

And so to try and open people's hearts and minds to realizing that we're all the same, we're all one, and and to stretch culture in that way.

以前我总想，好吧，这意味着我要出演各种跟我本人差异最大的角色。对。

And before I used to think, okay, that means me popping up in all these roles that are as different as possible to me Mhmm.

改变人们对谁能演那个角色的看法。

Change people's ideas about who can play that role.

对。

Mhmm.

谁能出现在《星球大战》电影里，诸如此类的事情。

Who can be in a Star Wars movie and all this kind of stuff.

而现在我越来越觉得，我想分享自己身上那些混乱的矛盾之处。

And now more and more, I think, like, I wanna share the messy contradiction of myself.

我以前觉得演戏就是戴上面具。

I used to think acting was about putting on the mask.

现在我觉得演戏是摘下面具。

Now I think it's about taking it off.

其实就是要分享最私人的东西，而最终那也是最普遍的。对。

It's actually about sharing the most personal thing possible, and that ends up being the most universal Yeah.

东西。

Thing.

对。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

其实有件事我从来没在公开场合说过，杰，就是我拍了一部叫《Mogul Moguli》的电影。

Something actually I've I've never really talked about publicly before, Jay, but I did this film called Mogul Moguli.

这部电影讲的是一个艺术家突然失去行走能力，一夜之间病得很重，而且永远不确定自己能不能恢复原来的生活。

And it's about a guy who an artist who suddenly loses his ability to walk, becomes tremendously ill overnight, and is never sure if he's gonna get his life back.

它探索了很多我在创作上感兴趣的主题，但大家不知道的是，那基本上就是我自己的真实经历。

It was an exploration of lots of themes that I was interested in creatively, but what people don't know is that that that basically really happened to me.

那是2015年，我刚开始拍《星球大战》。

It was 2015, and I just started filming Star Wars.

我以前从来没拍过制片厂的大片，也没拍过那种大系列。

I'd never done studio movie before, never done a big franchise.

我从没想过那会是我的路。

I never thought it would that would be my path.

我当时拍独立电影拍得很开心，比如《夜行者》和《四头狮子》。

I was really happy doing indies like Nightcrawler and Four Lions.

我突然就进了这个片场，周围全是暴风兵和各种大场面。

I suddenly got to be in this film set with stormtroopers and all these big things.

我当时就想，哇。

I was like, wow.

这真的会发生在我身上吗？

Is this is it gonna happen for me?

拍那部戏才一周，我的腿就开始莫名其妙地疼。

One week into filming that, I started getting this weird pain in my legs.

我当时想，好吧，可能是在哪个动作戏里拉伤了。

And I thought, okay, maybe I've pulled something during one of the action scenes.

有一天早上我醒来，发现自己下不了床，也走不了路。

And I woke up one morning and I couldn't get out of bed and I couldn't walk.

我试着去医院，他们好像就是随便把我打发了。

Tried to go to a hospital, they were like they just kinda like palm me off.

他们也不太确定是什么问题。

They didn't weren't really sure what it was.

我回父母家的时候，去了他们那边的医院，就是我出生的那家医院。

I went to the hospital back in my parents' neighborhood, the same hospital I was born in when I was visiting my parents.

所以我就去那儿检查了一下。

So let me go and check get checked out there.

他们马上就看出了情况，然后说，你需要立刻住院。

They immediately saw what was happening and they were like, you need to be admitted to hospital straight away.

我记得我说，我不能住院。

I remember saying, I can't do that.

我现在正在拍《星球大战》。

I'm filming Star Wars right now.

他们说，你现在的情况非常危险。

And they said, you're in a very dangerous situation right now.

我会告诉你发生了什么，但你必须马上住院。

And I'll explain to you what's happening, but you need to be hospitalized immediately.

我当时就想，我这是怎么了？

And I just felt like, what's happening to me?

我的生活是不是正在我眼前崩塌？

Is my life kind of falling apart before my eyes?

结果我在医院里住了两个半月。

I ended up spending two and a half months in hospital.

我完全没法走路。

I was unable to walk.

体重掉到了不到五十公斤。

I went down to just under fifty kilos.

哇。

Wow.

一百磅，你知道，我连胳膊都抬不起来，也走不了路。

A hundred pounds, know, I couldn't lift my arms, I couldn't walk.

对，我每天都去中风康复中心锻炼。

And yeah, I was kind of going to a stroke gym every day.

当你的生活这样崩塌的时候，会发生一件奇怪的事情。

A weird thing happens when your life falls apart like that.

当你面对自己完全无法掌控一切的时候，真的会让人变得谦卑。

When you're confronted with your complete lack of control, it's really humbling.

你会意识到，如果连自己的身体都控制不了，那么我所拥有的一切可能都是礼物。

You realize if I don't even control my own body, then maybe everything that I do have is a gift.

我记得在医院的时候，别说回去拍完《星球大战》了，连职业生涯、甚至能重新走路都不敢想。

I remember being in hospital, forget going back to film the rest of Star Wars, forget having a career, ever being able to walk again.

我记得坐在那里，看到一只鸽子停在NHS医院的窗台上，我几乎被它的美感动得流泪。

I remember being sat there and seeing like a pigeon sat on the windowsill of this NHS hospital and being almost moved to tears with by its beauty.

听起来可能有点疯狂，但也许你能理解我的意思，就是你会想，天哪，我何德何能，能让那只鸽子来看我。

It sounds maybe it sounds crazy, but maybe you can relate to what I'm saying where you're just like, man, I need nothing to deserve that pigeon coming to visit me.

我能近距离看到它。

I get to see up close.

鸽子其实很神奇。

Pigeons are actually amazing.

它们身上有点绿有点红，你能看到阳光在它们身上闪耀。

They're like a little bit green and red, and you're getting seeing the sunlight shine off of me.

这个我以前从不在意的动物，这只野生的动物，让我彻底震撼了。

This thing that I've taken for granted, I was just absolutely blown away by this animal, this wild animal that was there.

我感受到一种深深的谦卑和感激。

And I felt this sense of such humility and and gratitude.

从那时起我一直相信，当你被逼到绝境时，你就离祈祷不远了。

And I've always believed ever since then, it's when you're brought to your knees that you're halfway towards praying.

它让你更接近宇宙中的爱。

It brings you closer to the love in the universe.

我经历了一段真正的旅程，也就是从那时起，我开始认真地冥想。

And I went on a real journey, and that's when I kinda really started meditating in earnest.

我经历了一段非常疯狂的旅程，几乎要哀悼并放下我原本以为的生活。

I had this kinda crazy crazy journey where I had to kind of almost grieve and let go of my life the way I thought it would be.

感觉就像上帝或宇宙在对我说，你现在想要的一切，都在为你发生。

And it was it was almost like I felt like God or the universe was saying, you know, all this stuff that you want, it's like happening for you now.

对吧？

Right?

要确保你珍惜它。

Make sure you appreciate it.

不要把它视为理所当然。

Don't take it for granted.

你知道吗？

You know?

在得到礼物之前，我正被教导要感恩。

It was I was being taught gratitude just before being given the gift.

我朋友发短信给我说，兄弟，我刚看到《星球大战》的照片了。

My friends are texting me like, bro, I've just seen the Star Wars photos, man.

就像，你要出演《星球大战》了。

Like, you're gonna be in Star Wars.

对。

Yeah.

我躺在医院里，拼命想引起护士的注意，因为我下不了床去上厕所，又不想尿床。

I'm in a hospital desperately trying to get the nurse's attention because I can't get out to go to the toilet and I don't wanna wet the bed.

我的生活跟别人眼中的样子简直是天壤之别。

My life is just it couldn't be more different to what people are perceiving it to be.

那段经历让我想开始从个人角度讲述工作。

There was something about that experience made me wanna start telling work from a personal place.

原因是我对此感到非常羞愧。

And the reason for that is that I felt a lot of shame around it.

我深感羞愧。

I felt a deep sense of shame.

而且，你知道，我从来没有公开谈论过这件事，即使现在也没有，但对于那些正在经历同样事情的人，我想分享这段经历，因为我有一种奇怪的羞耻感，内心有个批判的声音在说，你活该。

And, you know, I've never really talked about it publicly even now, but for anyone else going through that right now, I wanted to wanted to kinda share that and offer that as a as an experience because I I felt this kind of weird shame, and I felt this critical inner voice coming out that was like, you deserve this.

这才是你该有的样子。

This is what you should be.

你以为你配得上这里吗？

You thought you belonged up here?

不。

No.

你马上给我滚回去。

You're you're getting straight back down.

这就是你的命。

This This is your fate.

你怎么敢觉得自己能幸福，能拥有想要的东西？

How dare you think you could be happy, you have the things you want.

然后那种羞耻感，还有那种特别恶毒的声音全都冒出来了。

And all this shame and all this kind of like this really venomous voice was coming out.

我当时就想，其实这才是真正要命的东西。

And I was like, actually, this is the thing that's killing me.

治愈那个声音的唯一方法，就是去接纳它，接纳自己的经历，放下对经历的羞耻感，放下对自己的羞耻感。

The only way to heal myself of that voice is by owning it, is owning my experience, losing my the shame around my experience, losing my shame around who I am.

这就是Mogul的意义所在。

That's what Mogul Mogul is about.

这也是bait的意义所在。

That's what bait is about.

因为我觉得，你知道，我经历的那些其实是一种自身免疫性疾病。

Because I I believe, you know, what what happened to me was a kind of autoimmune condition.

对吧？

Right?

自身免疫性疾病就是身体攻击自己。

An autoimmune condition is when the body attacks itself.

我知道我们都很喜欢那本书，《身体从未忘记》。

And I know we're both big fans of that book, The Body Keeps a Score.

你知道，我一直觉得自己在跟自己打仗，内心那个批判的声音完全失控了。

You know, it was my belief that I was at war with myself, that my critical inner voice was so out of control.

我总是在攻击自己，把自己逼得太紧，以至于我的身体都开始反抗自己了。

I was always attacking myself, beating myself over the stick so much that in a way my body had turned on itself.

其实我之前开玩笑讲过这个故事，就是拍完《罪夜之奔》两年后，我半夜还是会起来，去厕所，然后又开始过戏。

I mean, I told this story jokingly before about what I'm about to tell you, which is two years after I'd finished filming the night of, I'd still get up in the middle of the night, go to the bathroom, and start running scenes again.

这部剧都已经播出了。

This is the show has come out.

我还想凭这个角色拿艾美奖呢。

I want an Emmy for this role.

都已经结束了。

It's done.

按理说我应该继续过我的生活了。

Like, I should have moved on with my life.

但在我脑海里，还是觉得不够好。

But still in the back of my head, it's like, not good enough.

你不够好。

You're not good enough.

那太丢人了。

That's embarrassing.

你怎么会觉得那演得好？

How you think that was good?

给我回去。

Get back up there.

再来一遍。

Do it again.

哇。

Wow.

所以我心里一直有这样一个声音，而且我相信，正是那个苛刻的内心声音把我送进了医院。

So I had this voice in me, and my it's my belief that that critical inner voice led me to that hospital bed.

我不得不直视它，对它说：别再羞愧了，兄弟。

And I had to look it in the eye and say, no more shame, man.

别再羞愧了。

No more shame.

我要把这件事变成我的力量。

I'm gonna own this.

我要从中创作出作品来。

I'm gonna create work from this.

《金属之声》就是这么来的。

And that's what Sound of Metal was.

《穆戈尔·莫格利》也是源于那段亲身经历，宇宙把《金属之声》带给了我，那部电影也是关于一个鼓手。

That's where Mughal Mowgli was coming from that direct experience, the universe brought me Sound of Metal, which is also about an eye.

他正在经历健康危机。

It's going through a health crisis.

我当时就想，不。

And And I was like, no.

不。

No.

你还没完呢。

You're not done with it.

你得回到那里去。

You gotta go back there.

你得从这个地方创作出作品来。

You gotta make work from this place.

是的，兄弟。

Yeah, man.

我和这种批判的声音以及羞耻感有着很深的渊源，我真的觉得它能要了你的命。

I I have long deep history with this critical voice and this shame, and I really think it can kill you, man.

我并没有完全摆脱它，但我觉得那个内心的批判声音，他不是那个拿着扩音器的人，但他总是会出现在聚会上。

It's not something that I'm done with, but I think that critical inner voice just he's not the guy on the megaphone, but he's a guy who's always gonna be at the party.

如果幸运的话，他只是在聚会的角落里。

He's made if I'm lucky, he's at the corner of the party.

尽管这很难，但跟我聊聊最低谷的时刻，住院期间最糟糕的那一天，因为那些时刻我们都经历过人生的低谷，但那些时刻你从没听人提起过，因为它们太吓人了。

As hard as it may be, talk to me about the lowest moment, the worst day of going through that time in hospital because those are the moments that we all have experienced rock bottom, but those are the moments you never hear people talk about because they're scary.

是的。

Yeah.

听你这么说，我觉得你当时真的承受了很多。

And and I feel like when I'm hearing you talk about that, I'm like, sounds like you were dealing with a lot.

一个年轻力壮、平时很健康的人，心理问题能严重到身体都垮掉。

For something mental to become physically that debilitating when you're a fit young man, healthy man in general.

这说明你内心真的有一场激烈的斗争，就像你说的那样。

Like that means there was there was a real war within yourself as you rightly said it.

尽量多跟我讲讲那时候的事吧。

Talk to me as much as you can about that.

晚上我一个人在医院，他们给我静脉注射大量类固醇，类固醇会让人睡不着。

I was alone at night in the hospital and they were pumping me full of a lot of steroids intravenously and steroids keep you up.

对吧？

Right?

我睡不着，感觉自己完全被孤立了。

And I couldn't sleep and I just felt completely alone.

不管我当时是什么情况，治疗都没什么效果。

Whatever was going on with me, it was resistant to treatment.

所以我稍微好了一点，然后情况又开始恶化了。

So I got a tiny bit better and then it went it was going south.

我开始感觉到，可能它会影响我的心脏，影响我的呼吸，而且肯定影响我吞咽。

And it started sensing that maybe there was some it might be affecting my heart and it might be affecting my ability to breathe and it was certainly it was affecting my ability to swallow.

我记得，因为剧组的工作人员，上帝保佑他们，他们一直给我送食物到医院。

I remember this because the people on set at staff was, God bless them, they carried on sending me food to the hospital.

而我吞咽都很困难。

And I was having trouble swallowing it.

我当时就想，我能挺过去吗？

And I was like, am I gonna make my way out of this?

我会不会死在这里？

Am I gonna die here?

我开始这样问自己。

Is what I started asking myself.

然后我开始和上帝说话。

And I started talking to God.

我记得那个跌入谷底的时刻。

And I remember that rock bottom moment.

就像我说的，当你被逼到绝境，那正是你开始祈祷的时候。就在那种完全无助的时刻，我开始跟上帝说话，我说，如果你愿意给我一个机会，如果你愿意让我活下去，我向你保证，我会尽我所能去付出。

Again, like I said, when you're brought to your knees, that's when you're halfway to praying, it was that moment of total helplessness that I started talking to God and I said, if you please give me a chance, if you please let me live, I promise you as much as I can, I will will give?

我想要付出。

I wanna give.

我当时的想法是，我觉得我还没有把自己掏空。

And what I meant by that was, and I said like, I I just feel I haven't emptied myself yet.

你知道，我还有更多可以给予的。

You know, I've got more to give.

我记得我恳求上帝，眼泪顺着脸颊流下来，我说，是的，如果你让我活下去，让我挺过这一关，我保证我会把自己掏空，尽力去付出你所给予我的一切。

And I remember just pleading with God and just the tears just streaming down my face and just saying, yeah, if you just let me live, if you let me get through this, I promise you I will empty myself and try and give from whatever you've given me.

那真的非常可怕。

And it was incredibly scary.

第二天早上，我记得他们说可能得开始对我进行一种非常强效的化疗。

And the next morning I remember they said that they might have to start a really intensive kind of chemo on me.

天哪，老兄。

God, man.

我是说，那真是你人生中一段非常煎熬的时光。

I mean that's like, it's a harrowing time like in your life.

我听到这些的时候，因为我自己没有生命危险，但我作为僧侣时，精神上的压力转化成了身体上的问题，我喉咙里长了息肉。

Like that's like just, when I hear about it, because I, it wasn't life threatening, but my version of the mental turning into physical was I developed while I was a monk, developed polyps in my throat.

这些息肉长在声带上，通常是因为用嗓过度、缺乏声带休息或者某种声带损伤引起的。

And so these get on your vocal cords and people generally get it from like vocal exhaustion or lack of vocal rest or some sort of vocal disruption.

我觉得在修道院里，我们念咒、唱诵，你知道的，而且我唱歌并不好听，我的音域很有限，可能我一直在过度用嗓。

And I think for us in the monastery, was mantra, it was chanting, it was, you know, and I do not have a singing voice for whatever it's worth, but I think my vocal range is pretty limited and I was probably straining it.

我甚至不知道是怎么发生的。

I don't even know how it happened.

这是身体上的表现，但根据我们刚才聊的，这背后还有更多原因，比如缺乏表达，缺乏对自己真实状态的坦诚沟通。

That's that's the physical version, but we all know there's well, from what we're talking about, there's so much more to it, whether it's a lack of expression, a lack of authentic communication of where you're at.

我记得我不得不去做激光手术把它们从喉咙里去掉。

I remember having to get them lasered off my throat.

所以我就去做了手术，把那些息肉用激光打掉了。

And so I went into surgery, got them lasered off.

其实挺简单的，你知道，你感觉不到什么，因为打了麻药，而且就像我说的，不危及生命，但术后好几个月都得用吸管喝水，因为没法正常吃东西。

It's pretty like, you know, you don't feel it, you're sedated, it's not, like I said, it's not life threatening, like for months after you're drinking from a straw because you can't eat proper food.

对。

Okay.

而且不能说话，所以我带了一块白板。

And you can't talk, so I have a whiteboard.

我记得那时候搬回我爸妈家住，因为没法待在寺院里，我就真的在板上写给我妈看我能吃什么、喝水什么的。

And I remember moving in back with my parents at the time because I couldn't be in the monastery and I'd literally write to my mom like what I could eat, water, whatever it was.

我基本上就是脖子上挂着一块白板，到处走，跟家人交流就靠写，因为我说不了话。

And I'm literally carrying a whiteboard around my neck basically and just writing stuff to my family because I can't say anything.

那时候我心想，我在大学演讲，在寺庙里讲法，说话就是我的本事，那就是我干的事。

And at that time, I'm like, I give speeches at colleges, I give talks to the temple, I'm like speaking is my thing, like that's what I do.

当然。

Of course.

结果全没了。

And it's all gone.

对，就消失了，我连话都说不了。

Of And it's disappeared and like I can't even say anything.

我只能在白板上写字。

Like I'm writing words on a whiteboard.

我记得当时的感觉，跟你说的看到那只鸽子、向上帝祈祷的感觉很像。

And I remember feeling very similarly to what you're saying about seeing that pigeon, praying to God.

就是，我能感同身受吧？

Like, I I can I can relate to it?

而且再说，我的情况也不是危及生命的。

And again, like, mine was not life threatening.

不是那种，你知道，不能说话和不能走路是有区别的。

It wasn't, you know, there's a difference between not speaking and not walking.

对。

No.

但这很深刻，因为你的天赋变成了你的诅咒。

But it's profound because it's your your gift turns to your curse.

你被赐予的东西，也就是沟通的能力和你的渴望、你的使命，恰恰是被夺走的东西。

100 And it's like the thing that you are blessed with, which is this ability to communicate and this desire, this purpose you have, that is the thing that's taken from you.

对。

Correct.

那这对你的方式有什么影响？我是说，这是否让你更有动力去说话，去选择你的措辞，去思考你的话语？

And so how has that affected the way that you I mean, did that just make you even more motivated to speak and to choose your words and think about your words?

是的。

Yeah.

我不得不去找声乐教练训练，诸如此类的事情。

I had to go to a vocal coach to train and all of that kind of stuff.

他们说你的自然嗓音会回来的，结果回来时变得更轻柔了。

And they said that you would get your, you know, your natural voice would come back, it came back softer.

我失去了声音的沙哑感和低沉感，所以听起来不一样了。

I'd lost the raspiness and the depth of my voice, so I sounded different.

现在我的声音恢复正常了，甚至可能比以前还好一点，所以我得接受这个结果。

Now I sound back to normal, if anything maybe it's bit better now, so I've gotta take it.

但当时我就觉得，天哪，我得重新学怎么说话了。

But like at the time it was like, I was like, God, I'm gonna have to learn how to talk again.

当时就是那种感觉。

Like that's how it felt.

这件事对我产生了几个影响。

And what it did for me was a few things.

我记得当时跟一位灵性导师聊过，我跟他说，我再也没法大声跟上帝说话了。

I remember talking to one spiritual guide at the time, and I said to him, I said, I can't speak to God out loud anymore.

我听不到自己跟上帝说话的声音了。

Like I can't hear myself talk to God.

我没法唱诵了。

I can't chant.

我没法念咒了，而咒语在东方传统里非常重要。

I can't Mantra is such a big part of Eastern tradition.

我没法大声唱诵了。

I can't chant out loud.

本来你应该大声唱出来，这样才能听到那种神圣的声音。

And you're meant to chant out loud so you can hear the spiritual sacred sound.

这就是我们的修行方式。

Like that's our practice.

然后他对我说，他说，上帝在教你用心去唱诵。

And he goes to me, he goes, God's teaching you to chant with your heart.

我当时就觉得，天哪，那句话真的深深触动了我。

Like, and I was like, God, that, at that time, I just remember that like hitting me.

他就说，对。

It was like, he was like, yeah.

你觉得你大声跟上帝说话，

You think well, you think you talk to God out loud?

你觉得上帝听的是那个吗？

Like, you think that's what God listens to?

他说，上帝在听这个。

He was like, God's listening to this.

上帝知道这里发生了什么。

Like, God knows what's going on in here.

这和声音、嗓音没关系。

It's got nothing to do with sound and voice.

我当时就想，哇。

And I was like, wow.

学会用心和上帝说话，这太重要了。

That's huge to learn to talk to God with my heart.

那到底是什么意思？

Like what does that even mean?

对。

Yes.

同时，就像你说的，现在我的声音开始恢复了，我该怎么尊重我有声音这个事实呢？

And then at the same time, it's what you said where it was like, okay, now that my voice is starting to come back, how am I gonna respect the fact that I have a voice?

就是说，你知道，不要把它当成理所当然，要想着，你能感受到我们现在这样轻松地聊天、交流，我能听到你，你也能听到我，这种感觉有多好。

Like to and, you know, to not take it for granted, to be like, how can you feel that this ease with which we're talking right now and we're communicating and I can hear you, you can hear me.

当这一切消失的时候，天哪，生活变得毫无色彩，你知道，失去了太多价值。

When that goes away, god, life feels colorless and, you know, and it loses so much value.

所以再说一次，你知道，我们之前私下也聊过这个，就是当你，当然你会忘记这一切。

And so again, and, you know, we were talking about this offline as well, like when you, of course you forget all this.

你又会开始把所有的恩赐都当成理所当然。

You start taking all the gifts for granted again.

你可能某种程度上必须这样，才能试着去处理创伤，但我不确定你是否会有那么一些时刻，记起这些，然后沉浸在那种深深的谦卑和感恩之中。谦卑这个词很关键。

You probably have to in a way to try and kinda move through the trauma, but I don't know if you have moments where you remember that and you just sink into that deep sense of humility and gratitude and Humility is the word.

我是说，你让我又回到了那个时候，杰。

I mean, you're taking me back there, Jay.

我觉得我其实没想过这个。

I don't think I've actually thought about this.

我甚至，我觉得我都没公开说过这个，说实话，我自己都没说过。

I don't even I don't think I've talked about it publicly, to be honest myself.

我都不记得我有没有真的说过这件事。

I I don't I can't remember if I've actually talked about it.

而且我想起你的经历，你的经历让我回想起，对，就是那样，你知道吗，那真的很强烈。

And I'm being reminded of your ex like your your experience triggering me going, yeah, like that, you know That was intense.

那真的很强烈。

That was intense.

而且我经历过，那真的很创伤。

And I've done That was traumatic.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

真的很创伤。

Was traumatic.

但说了这么多，结合你的经历，跟我说说，经历过那样的事情之后，羞耻感是从哪里来的，为什么不想分享呢？

But all of that to say with all of yours, talk to me about where does the shame come from going through something like that and then not wanting to share it?

因为我觉得，经历创伤本身是一种痛苦，而把它讲给一群可能根本不懂你经历了什么的人听，又是另一种痛苦。

Because I think there's the pain of going through something traumatic, and there's then there's the pain of communicating it to a group of people who may or may not actually understand what the hell you just went through.

对。

Yeah.

但你跟我说说，你当时想分享这件事的时候，羞耻感是从哪儿来的？又是什么让你憋了这么久？

But talk to me about where was the shame for you in wanting to share that and what kept it in for so long?

我会说的，但我能不能先跟你说说你刚才那个“对”？

I I will, but can I first tell you something about your Yeah?

我喜欢你的声音。

I love your voice.

但问题是这样的。

But here's the thing.

有时候我走在街上——这种事不常发生，但发生过好几次了，我觉得值得提一下。

When I sometimes I'm walking down the street, it doesn't happen to me a lot, but it's happened to me enough times I wanna mention it.

有时候会有人拦住我，比如我在打电话或者干嘛，他们听到我说话，就会说，不好意思，我能说一句吗？你的声音简直跟Jay Shetty一模一样。

Sometimes people stop me and they say, say I'm on the phone or whatever, they've heard me talking, they go, sorry, can I just tell you, you sound exactly like Jay Shetty?

那太搞笑了。

That is hilarious.

我就当是夸奖了。

I'll take that as a compliment.

我就当是夸奖了，兄弟。

I'll take it as a compliment, bro.

你会是个很棒的主持人。

You'd make an amazing emcee.

我觉得你的声音特别适合做这个。

I think you got a great you got a great voice for that.

我们需要这张专辑。

We need the album.

以前的混音带。

Mixtapes in the past.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

拜托，各位女士。

Come on, man, ladies.

知道吗？

Know?

所以我想说，你的声音真的很棒。

So I just wanna I'm gonna give your voice is flowers.

对。

Yeah.

可惜的是，你知道，我觉得这个节目讲的是想成为詹姆斯·邦德的那种想法。

The shame, you know, I think that the show is about this idea of wanting to be James Bond.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我也想要那样。

I wanted that.

我是说，谁不想呢？

I mean, who who doesn't?

就算不是完全那样，也差不多是那种感觉。

Or if not exactly that, a version of that.

我的意思是，你想成为那种英雄主义的典范。

Now what I mean by that is, like, you wanna aspire to this archetype of of heroism.

对。

Mhmm.

就是那种刀枪不入、强大的阿尔法男性，不管那意味着什么。

And that is about being this kind of invulnerable, powerful alpha male, whatever that means.

不过好笑的是，狼群里的阿尔法雄性其实是让幼崽欺负得最多的那个，它是最淡定、最不具攻击性的。

Although, hilariously, I mean, the alpha male in a wolf pack is the animal that lets the kids beat it up the most, you know, and it's like the most chill and the least aggressive.

对吧？

Right?

但我们的文化里就有这些观念，我觉得我不想——我已经觉得自己不符合那个模式了，你知道，就因为我们成长过程中经历的那些事。

But we have these ideas in our culture, and I guess I didn't want to I already felt like I don't fit the mold, you know, for all the reasons we've already discussed that we experienced growing up.

我不想再被人觉得我软弱，或者脆弱，或者……但现在我回头看，其实我觉得我展现了很多资源、力量和坚韧，无论是精神上还是身体上。

I don't want another strike against me of people somehow thinking I'm weak, you know, or I'm fragile, or I whereas now I look at it as like, well, actually, I feel like I showed a lot of resources and strength and grit, mental and physical.

你知道，重新学会走路，或者抬起手臂，这些都需要力量。

You know, teaching yourself to walk again or lift your arms or whatever, that that takes strength.

现在我可以这么说了，但当时我只看到悲观的一面，我想，我不想让任何人觉得我软弱，觉得我破碎了，觉得我不够格。

And I can say that now, The time I just saw the glass half empty of it, and I thought, I don't even want anyone to think that I'm weak, that I'm broken, that I'm not up to up to the mark.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

而且某种程度上，我觉得这确实有点道理，我觉得文化已经稍微转变了一些。

And in a way, I actually think that there's some truth in that that I think the culture has shifted a little bit more.

明白。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得可以，因为有了像你和其他人创造的这样的空间，我们可以多聊聊，多庆祝一下自己的脆弱。

I think we do because of spaces like this, man, that you've created and other people have created, where we can talk and celebrate our vulnerabilities a bit more.

你知道吗，现在说这些的时候，我的身体好像在说，天哪，我真的说了这些吗？

You know, mean, it's talking about this right now, my body right now is kinda like going, oh god, yeah, did I just say all this?

我真的做了这些吗？

Did I do all this?

但我也觉得轻松了一些。

But I also feel a bit lighter.

就像我说的，这是深入内心的东西，是一种奉献。

It's that thing of digging inside, like I said, it's an offering.

你知道吗，如果有人正在经历类似的事情，看到这个，如果这能让他们的经历变得正常，让他们觉得不那么孤单，那就很美好了，我想分享这个。

You know, if there's someone going through something like this, just watching this, if it normalizes their experience, if it makes them feel less alone, then that's beautiful, you know, and I wanna share that.

我觉得就是这样。

I think it was that really.

我觉得这又是我那个问题，就是公开的自己和私下的自己之间的距离。

I think it was kind of my again, it was the distance between that public and private self.

我感觉到，如果公开的自己太接近真实的我，一切又会崩溃。

And I felt that if my public self gets too close to my reality, it'll fall apart again.

对。

Yeah.

说得好。

Well said.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我真的相信你分享这些，尤其是谈到外在的看法，大家都会说，哇，你赢了，你的职业生涯太棒了，你拿了艾美奖、奥斯卡，所有这些。

I really believe you sharing that, especially talking about perception in that externally, everyone can be like, oh, you're winning, your career has been amazing, you won Emmys, Oscar, you know, all this stuff.

但实际上，大家会想，等等，连他也有自己的困扰，这些困扰不仅影响他的心理和身体，而且我希望大家能理解这种心理和身体的联系，我知道你也这么认为，就是很多我们身体上的问题其实源于某种情感或心理的堵塞。

And it's like to actually go, oh, wait a minute, even him, like there's there's stuff he's going through, not only is affecting him mentally, physically, and that mental physical connection that I want people to make here, which I know you do too, which is this idea that a lot of what we're going through physically is coming from some sort of emotional block, mental block.

在《诱饵》里，你把这个声音具象化成一个被砍下来的猪头，还是用帕特里克·斯图尔特的声音说话的猪头。

And in bait, you visualize that as this severed pig's head, which which is this Patrick Stewart voice severed pig's head.

所以，没错，在《诱饵》里，那个内心的批判声音就是一个被砍下来的猪头。

So, yes, the critical inner voice in bait is a severed pig's head.

这个猪头是作为种族歧视的攻击被寄给那家人的，我觉得这讲的是我们如何把别人对我们的批评和偏见内化。

It was sent to the family as a racist attack, and it's about, I guess, how we can internalize the criticism of us, internalize the prejudice.

然后它几乎变成了他的好朋友。

So it starts to become almost like his best friend.

对我来说，很长一段时间里，我内心的那个批判声音是我舍不得放下的东西。

Like and for me, a long time, my critical inner voice was something I didn't wanna lose.

我担心如果我跟它和解，或者把它的音量调得太低，我就会变得懒惰。

I was worried that if I make peace with it or turn the volume down on that too much, I'll get lazy.

我会变得自满。

I'll get complacent.

我记得我们凭短片获得奥斯卡奖的时候，嗯。

I remember even when when we won an Oscar for our short film Mhmm.

这太有意思了。

It's so funny.

感觉就像奥斯卡在看着我说，你算个啥。

It was almost like the Oscar was looking at me going, you ain't shit.

那种兴奋感只持续了从我去领奖、拿奖、去后台、上厕所、回来再坐下那么长时间。

The kind of elation lasted as long as me going there, collecting it, going backstage, going to the toilet, coming back, and sitting down again.

事实上，当我坐在那里手里拿着奥斯卡奖杯的时候，我的内心批评声音达到了顶峰。

By the time I sit down, in fact, I would say my critical inner voice was at an all time high when I was sat there holding that Oscar in my hand.

因为这几乎是一种生存机制。

Cause it was almost like a survival mechanism.

我的大脑在说，那个声音，我大脑的那部分在说，别现在就放松。

My brain was going well, that voice, that part of my brain was going, don't put your feet up now.

别以为你可以自满。

Don't think you can get complacent.

别松懈。

Don't kick back.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我已经把你训练成只追求进步，不享受当下。

I have programmed you to strive not to savor.

所以你现在真的要拼命鞭策自己。

And so you now gonna really crack the whip.

就是，就是完全失控了。

It's just it was just going crazy.

我记得坐在那个座位上，对自己产生了极其苛刻的想法。

I remember sitting there in that seat having the most aggressively critical thoughts to myself.

那简直，就是，完全失控了。

It it was, like, out of control.

但在节目里，这个角色是由“猪头乐队”来演的，我想让你知道，有那么一刻，很长的一刻，我心想，这肯定是杰伊·谢蒂。

But in a show, it's played by Severed Pigshead, I want you to know there was a moment, long moment, where I was like, it has to be Jay Shetty.

我们最后请到了帕特里克·斯图尔特爵士。

We ended up getting sir Patrick Stewart.

对。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

我的意思是，我会接受这个安排，找一个真正的大牌演员，一位传奇人物，这样能让我的角色沙阿感到不自信。

I mean, I'll take it up someone who's I thought it has to be a really kind of super established actor, one of the greats, so it makes Shah, my character, feel insecure.

其实，如果你看到我的邪恶双胞胎会怎么样？

Actually, what if you saw my evil twin?

我是说，也许有点相似。

I mean, there's not slight resemblance maybe.

对。

Yeah.