特拉维斯·巴克尔：“我最大的恐惧真的发生了”

比如，你具体在练什么？

Like, what are you practicing?

各种各样的东西都有。

It's all sorts of different things.

我其实正在准备演奏 Ramones 乐队五十周年的演出。

Like, I'm actually getting ready to play the fiftieth anniversary for the Ramones.

哦，那挺酷的。

Oh, that's cool.

就像我，还有Ranted乐队的Tim Armstrong，Green Day的Billy Joe。

It's like me, Tim Armstrong from Ranted, Billy Joe from Green Day.

肯定会特别棒。

It's gonna be awesome.

所以我正准备开始练琴，不过在忙专辑的时候，其实就是保持手感。

So I'm I'm about to start practicing that, but then while I'm working on albums, I just it's like keeping your chops up.

这感觉就像每天跑个三到五英里，因为你知道马拉松快到了。

It's almost like running three to five miles every day because you know a marathon's coming up.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

总是保持一点工作量，你懂的。

Keep, you know, kind of a small workload always.

Blink-182 最初那几场演出，头几年是什么样的？

What was that like those first few shows, the first couple of years for Blink-one hundred eighty two?

我的意思是，那一定是梦想成真吧。

I mean, that must have been a dream come true.

我演了那三场，然后回到家，我记得我去看了我爸。

I played those three shows, and I came home, and I remember I went to go see my pops.

我爸他，他是最好的，但他一直对我很严格，但也百分之百造就了今天的我。

And my pops is, he's the best, but he's always been really hard on me, but it also 1000% made me the man I am today.

你知道，我爸爸去过越南，他一辈子都骑哈雷摩托车。

You know, my dad was in Vietnam, he rode a Harley Davidson all his life, you know?

他就是个典型的硬汉。

He's just, he's a man's man, you know?

我记得回到家跟他说，爸，我才演了三场，就赚了三千五。

Remember I got home and I said, pal, I just made like $3,500, played three shows.

他跟我说，你得攒着点，因为下次不一定还能赚到这么多。

He's like, you better keep it because you probably won't make it again.

他就是那种态度，你懂的？

That was like his attitude, you know?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得还有我成长的环境，家里以前不宽裕，所以我的工作态度一直就是拼命往前冲，因为我绝不想再回到一无所有的日子，你明白吧？

I think also where I came from, our family didn't have money, so I think my work ethic also is always like keep pushing, because I never wanna go back to have nothing, you know?

我再也不想过那种日子了。我很自豪能给自己买房子，给姐妹们买房，给全家人安顿好，确保大家都过得安稳，所以那几场演出真的让人难以置信。

I never wanna be there again, and pride myself in being able to like buy my dad a house, buy my sisters, buy my family's houses, make sure they're all taken care of, so it was unreal, those shows.

就像，我觉得那跟做梦一样，你知道吧？我就一直在等有人打我一巴掌把我叫醒，因为这一切好得不像真的。

Like, I it it seemed like a dream, you know, like, I was just waiting for someone to smack me and wake me up because it was, like, too good to be true.

是什么时候开始对你的心理造成影响的呢？

When did it start to take a toll on you mentally?

就是，什么时候开始感觉不一样了？

Like, when when did it start to feel different?

我从来没有过不爱在乐队里演奏的时候。

There never came a time where where I didn't love playing in the band.

我真的很喜欢马克和汤姆。

I I love Mark and Tom.

就算还没加入乐队，我也很喜欢跟他们待在一起。

Even before I was in the band, I loved hanging out with Mark and Tom.

后来我虽然在水猴子乐队，也还是经常跟他们混在一起。

Even though was in the Aquabats, I would hang out with them too.

我们共同点挺多的。

We had a lot in common.

Aquabats乐队的所有成员都是冲浪者、滑板手，也是音乐人。

All of the Aquabats were surfers, skateboarders, musicians.

我觉得马克和汤姆也是这样，哪怕我们当时还没组乐队。

I think with Mark and Tom, it was the same way even though we weren't in a band.

我经常跟他们混在一起。

I was hanging with them a lot.

所以我特别享受跟他们一起玩乐队的时光。

So I I loved playing in a band with them.

我觉得直到我加入乐队，我们坐着面包车到处巡演的时候才意识到这一点。

I don't think it was until you know, when I got in the band, we're traveling around in a van.

我们只能睡在别人家的地板上。虽然乐队有点名气了，但也没到天天坐飞机的地步，你懂的？

We're sleeping on people's floors, and, you know, the band's popular, but we're not we're not flying every day or do you know?

那支乐队当时还是支年轻的新晋朋克乐队。

It was a a young punk band.

而且那时候也没什么真正成功的朋克乐队。

Also, there's no punk bands that really were successful.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得绿日乐队在我们之前就成功了，但那时候那看起来还是遥不可及。

I think Green Day was successful, like, right before us, and that was that once again was seemed unattainable.

那根本就是遥不可及。

That's not even it it's so out of reach.

我们甚至没想过能接近那个水平。

We didn't even think we could be anywhere close to that.

然后录制了《Enema of the State》，事情就开始起飞了。

And then recorded Enema of the State, things took off.

我们从一个电台节目飞到另一个电台节目，有时候一天要飞两次。

We're flying from, like, radio show to the next radio show to the next radio show, sometimes two flights in a day.

我当时还行。

I was still okay.

我不喜欢坐飞机。

I didn't like flying.

我从来就不喜欢坐飞机。

I I never loved flying.

我小时候有一次坐飞机去芝加哥，当时看到了我妈的反应。

I saw my mom at a young age, like when I flew to Chicago.

那其实是我生平第一次坐飞机，我看到她对飞行反应很大，因为遇到气流特别难受，我能看出来她很害怕。

I'd only been on a plane one time, and I saw my mom really reacting to the flight and being really upset because of the turbulence, and I could tell she was afraid.

所以从那以后我就一直不喜欢坐飞机。

So I didn't love flying.

说实话，我其实挺不想去的。

I I really didn't look forward to it.

后来有了兰登，我也见到了兰登的妈妈和阿蒂亚娜，那种压力开始一点点压得我喘不过气来。比如我得马上巡演，或者得去演这场演出，然后就要坐飞机，心里总想着万一坠机了怎么办？万一回不来见不到阿蒂亚娜怎么办？这种念头真的让我越来越焦虑。

Then after I had Landon and I had met Landon's mom and Atiana, things started, like, kind of wearing on me a little bit, like, I have to go on tour right now or I have to go to play this show and I'm gonna be on a plane and I could die, and I could not come back to land in an Atiana, and, you know, that really started wearing on me.

再加上几次不太顺利的飞行经历，让我不再那么喜欢坐飞机了，我的状态就是在那时候开始下滑的。

Then mixed with a couple bad flights that made flying worse, that's where things kinda took a fall for me.

不过这并没有影响我对乐队演出的热爱，但我发现自己为了能安心离开孩子、安心坐飞机，不得不靠药物来自我调节。

But it still didn't affect how much I love playing in the band, but I found I found myself, like, self medicating in order to leave my children and, you know, just fly.

你是什么时候开始接触毒品的？

At what point were you introduced to drugs?

大概就是在《脱掉裤子和夹克》那段时间，也就是在《进出》和《脱掉裤子》之间，一开始就是吃一片诺可酮或者止痛药，就是为了让自己放松下来。

Probably right around the time of take off your pants and jacket, like, between in and out and take off your pants, and it it just started with, like, a Norco or a a pain killer just to, like, mellow me out.

但这有点麻烦，因为我不能在演出前吃。

But it would get tricky because I couldn't really take them before shows.

那和我的演奏风格正好相反，我演奏起来很疯狂，全力以赴，所以我得挑合适的时候才能吃。

It was, like, the opposite of my playing style, like, crazy give it all, like, so I'd have to be really selective when I could do it.

后来阿拉巴马出生后，情况越来越糟，有时候要在欧洲、澳大利亚或者日本待上两个月，那时候我就只能靠药物撑着，才能继续巡演，让自己忘记离开了孩子们，你明白吗？

And then it got worse and worse after Alabama was born, and it would be long periods of time being in Europe or Australia or Japan for two months, that's when I kinda just had to medicate to stay, to even keep myself on tour and forget that I was away from the kids or whatever else, you know?

几年前我也有过类似的感受，但和音乐人比起来根本不算什么。

I had this reflection a few years ago and it's nothing compared to what musicians do.

我进行了第一次世界巡演，去了40个城市。

I went on my first world tour and it was 40 cities.

大概就是40个城市，我记得是在三个月内完成的。

So it was like 40 cities across, I think it was like across three months.

所以我每隔一天就换一个城市，我们去了澳大利亚、欧洲、迪拜、印度，还有北美各地，但我知道音乐巡演的时间长得离谱。

So I was in a different city every other day and we went everywhere from Australia to Europe to Dubai to India to all across North America, but I know music tours are like crazy long.

而且我巡演的时候年纪已经不小了，我是三年前去的，当时35岁，我就想，天哪，要是我年轻的时候干这个，我完全能理解为什么大家都会搞砸，然后靠某种方式麻痹自己，因为我觉得这太难了，在路上待这么久真的很难熬。

And I was older when I was doing it like I went three years ago, I was 35 years old and I'm like, God if I was doing this any younger, I totally see how this messes up everyone and leads them towards some sort of coping mechanism because I was like, this is hard and this is tough like being on the road for this long.

你其实看不出来，因为我觉得当你看到最喜欢的艺术家在台上时，显然他们看起来像是玩得最开心，一切都棒极了。

You couldn't really tell because I think when you see your favorite artist on stage, obviously it looks like they're having the best time of their life and everything's amazing.

对。

Yeah.

而且你根本不知道那些旅行、住酒店、孤独感，还有其他所有随之而来的东西。

And not realizing that the travel, the staying in a hotel, the loneliness, the everything else that comes with it.

对。

Yeah.

你刚才说的这个，我从来没想过，但巡演期间一个人住酒店，时间长了真的很孤独。

You just said it like, and I never thought about it, but hotels by yourself for being on tour long periods of time are lonely.

对。

Yeah.

然后你会掐自己一下，因为你会想，天哪，这简直是你连做梦都不敢想的事，你知道吗？

And then you pinch yourself because you're like, dude, this was like, you didn't even dare to dream this, you know?

所以我也为此挣扎过，比如，我已经拥有了一切，我还有什么可抱怨的，你知道吗？

So you'd I'd also struggle with that, like, I have it made, what am I, you know, like, what is it?

然后就是在乐队里、环游世界、像个摇滚明星一样的特拉维斯，不管别人怎么看我。

And then the struggle between Travis that's in the band that's traveling all over the world that's like this rock star, whatever whatever anyone thinks of me.

然后还有另一个特拉维斯，实际上是阿蒂安娜、兰登和阿拉巴马的爸爸。

And then there's like, Travis is actually, like, Atiana Landon and Alabama's dad.

那真的很难。

That was just hard.

我觉得有点身份认同危机，你知道吗？

A little bit of identity crisis, I think, you know?

因为两个角色我都爱，但我发现从21岁起我就一直不在家。

Because I loved both, but I found myself being gone all the time since I was, like, 21.

所以，巡演，巡演开始让我付出代价了。

So yeah, touring touring started to take its toll.

即使今天，你刚进来时谈论孩子们，你整个人都活了起来，那种作为父亲的喜悦。

Even today when the first thing you came in and you were like talking about the kids and you see you come to life and the joy you feel of being a dad.

哦，我很喜欢。

Oh, love it.

是的。

It's Yeah.

就像

Like

那很自然就流露出来了。

It just came, it was very natural.

我总是会说，我真的很累，但这一切都值得。

I'll always be like, I'm really, really tired, but it's so worth it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我全都爱。

I love it all.

我是说，我热爱做音乐。

I mean, I love I love making music.

我热爱打鼓。

I love playing drums.

我热爱我的孩子们。

I love my children.

我觉得，没有什么比当父母更有成就感了，你知道吗？

I couldn't like, there's nothing more rewarding than being a parent, you know?

我喜欢你说的关于身份认同的部分，因为听起来好像有一种矛盾，就是，我应该感恩，因为我在实现梦想。

I like what you're saying about the identity piece because it sounds like there's almost this friction between, well, I should be grateful because I'm living the dream.

对。

Yeah.

就像我应该为此感到高兴，但同时，又觉得，不，我在路上，我离开了家，现在我不得不靠药物来麻痹自己。

Like I should just be happy about this, but at the same time, it's like, no, I'm on the road and I'm away and now I'm having to medicate in order to just numb myself.

是的，我见过一些人，他们去巡演，他们迫不及待地想离开家人，逃离家庭生活。

Yeah, and I've seen people who can be on tour, they can't wait to go on tour to get away from their families and get away from home life.

那不是我。

That's not me.

比如，我就觉得，哦，我热爱家庭生活。

Like, I'm like, oh, I love home life.

我爱我的孩子们。

I love my kids.

只要有机会，我就会带他们一起去巡演。

Any chance I get, I'll bring them all on tour.

我真的会把全家都带上巡演。

Like, I'll literally have my whole family on tour.

那是最棒的。

It's the best.

但随着我年纪增长，戒酒之后，我就想，哦，我每天早上要跑三到五英里，我要买点东西寄回家给家人，我要练习，我要不断提升自己的技能。

But as I got older and once I got sober, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna run three to five miles every morning, I'm gonna go get something to send back home to the family, I'm gonna practice, I'm gonna constantly get better at my skill.

那之后感觉怎么样？

What was it like afterwards?

我觉得确实有那么个时候，纪录片里也讲过。从外面看，好像一切都是围着Blink-182转的，但实际上里面有不少别的事情在发生。

I think there was a moment, we'd hear about this in the documentary, like, from the outside it looked like everything was made for Blink-one hundred eighty two, but on the inside there were different things going on.

那时候，我真挑不出具体是哪一件事。

At the time, I can't pick out one thing.

我也不能说乐队就是因为某一件事解散的。

I can't be like, it was this one thing that the band broke up over.

我觉得大家当时都有另一半，也都有了自己的家庭。

I think everyone was in a relationship and had their own families.

他们都有自己的优先级，都有自己的目标。

They had their own priorities, their own goals.

我是说，我们每个人都有自己的事。

I mean, we all had priorities.

对我来说，我的孩子永远是第一位的。

Like, my my children were always my priority.

甚至在我抽大麻、嗑药的时候，我做那些事也只是因为我不在他们身边。

Even when I was smoking weed and doing drugs, I was only really doing that stuff because I was away from them.

我一到家，就变成了超级奶爸，你知道吗？

The minute I got home, I'm like, super dad, you know?

我知道汤姆在纪录片里说，他妻子希望他在家，他需要送女儿上学。

I know Tom says in the documentary, he was like, my wife wanted me to be home, and I I needed to take my daughter to school.

而我当时有三个孩子要送上学。

Well, I had three kids at the time that I needed to take to school.

你知道吗？

You know?

但乐队巡演太多了。

But it was just touring too much for the band.

我觉得汤姆也有这个想法，我们之前一起做过Box Car Racer，那是个分支乐队，但我觉得他也想试试没有乐队自己单干，他需要去尝试一下。

And I think Tom also had, like, this we had done boxcar racer together, which was a side band that we did, but I think he also just thought maybe he could do it on his own without the band, and he needed to go try and figure that out.

然后我们乐队的故事，大家都知道，粉丝们也经历过，就是乐队解散，然后我遭遇空难，你知道的，然后乐队又重组了。

And then the story of our band that which everyone knows and all the fans have lived through is is our band breaks up, and then I get into a plane crash where, you know, and then our band gets back together.

然后又解散，然后马克生病了，然后乐队又重组了，你知道吗？

Then we break up again, and then Mark got sick, and then our band gets back together again, you know?

所以我写了那首歌，叫《再来一次》。

That's why I wrote that song, like, one more time.

《再来一次》。

One more time.

对。

Yeah.

那首歌基本上就是我们乐队的写照。

It's like, literally our band, know, in a song.

在我们聊到飞机失事之前，我想多花点时间聊聊那个。

Before we get to the plane crash, which, I mean, yeah, I wanna spend a bit of time with that.

我觉得纪录片里我们看到，乐队解散后，你成功转型，涉足不同的音乐风格。

I feel like we see in the documentary that after the band breaks up, you like successfully pivot into working across different genres.

你和其他艺人、制作人合作，音乐上创作不断，成果丰硕。

You're working with other artists, other producers, like you're seeing you go on to, you know, be prolific musically.

然后你合作的人之一就是亚当·戈尔茨坦，也就是DJ AM。

And then one of the people that you collaborate with is Adam Goldstein or DJ AM.

嗯。

Mhmm.

跟我说说，你们是怎么开始合作和建立联系的？那段关系是什么样的？

Talk to me about how that collaboration and connection started, and what was that relationship like?

我的乐队解散了，那时候我在洛杉矶，到处晃悠，看过AM打碟。

My band had broken up, and at the time I was out, just in LA doing whatever, and I'd seen AM spin.

那是在一家夜店，他几乎什么风格都放。

And it was like at a nightclub, and he literally played every genre.

他从Dilla放到Kelly Clarkson，再到披头士，再到涅槃。

He would go from he'd play like Dilla into Kelly Clarkson, into the Beatles, into Nirvana.

我当时就想，什么鬼？

And I'm like, what?

他就像在说，你不允许那样做，也不允许做得那么好。

He's like, you're not allowed to do that, and you're not allowed to do that that good.

所有人都惊掉了下巴。

And everyone's, like, jaw dropped.

他真的太厉害了。

He's just so good.

那时候我和TI一起演出，我刚和TI合作过。

At the time I was playing with TI, I had just played with TI.

TI刚出狱，我们为BET颁奖礼开场。

TI just got out of prison and we opened the BET Awards.

我的乐队解散后，我和很多说唱歌手合作过。

I was was playing with a lot of rappers right after my band broke up.

然后我和AM聊得很投机，我说我觉得有一种DJ加鼓手的组合，是我一直想象的。

And then AM and I were chopping it up, I was like, I feel like there's this there's this DJ drummer thing that I envisioned.

我不知道，以前从来没人做过，但我就是看到你扔给我无伴奏人声，我打鼓，像现场混音一样，还有现场808鼓机，我不知道，我就是有个想法，我们应该试试，你懂吗？

I don't it's never been done before, but I just see you throwing acapellas at me, and I'm playing drums, like remixing stuff live with live 808s I don't know, I just have a vision we should see, you know?

所以我们去了排练室，即兴演奏了大概六个小时，一句话都没说，只是用乐器交流。

So we came, got a rehearsal space, we jammed for like six hours, didn't say a word to each other, just spoke to our instruments.

那感觉太棒了。

It was it was the best.

那真是太神奇了。

It was magical.

对于一个从小热爱各种音乐类型的人来说，我可以说我当时是既开心又困惑。

For someone who grew up loving every genre of music, I would say I was happily confused.

那是我经历过的最棒、最有满足感的音乐实验。

It was the best, the most fulfilling musical experiment ever.

然后我们开始演出，上了MTV音乐奖，还去了科切拉，真的超好玩。

And then we started playing shows, played the MTV Music Awards, like played Coachella, it was so fun.

听起来太棒了。

That sounds incredible.

而且你一说起这个，整个人都活起来了，感觉就像……

I mean, you can see you come to life when you talk about it too, it's like.

对，那真的很神奇。

Yeah, was magic.

我觉得在音乐里这挺难得的，你可以和很多人合作，但遇到一个人，你们就在同一个频率上。

I imagine that's pretty rare in music where like, you can collaborate with a lot of people, but then you meet someone and you're just on a different frequency.

我们太像了，从喜欢球鞋到收集复古T恤，再到当时都迷恋女孩，什么都一样。

We were so similar from like, being sneakerheads to collecting vintage t shirts to both being girl crazy, everything at the time.

我们就像共用一个大脑。

We were we shared, a brain.

对。

Yeah.

那真是太棒了。

It was it was awesome.

那你当时对毒品是什么态度？

And what was your engagement with drugs like at that time?

对成瘾、药物滥用呢？

With addiction, substance abuse?

我会说自己是个功能很好的瘾君子。

I would call it a really well functioning drug addict.

哇。

Wow.

我一天能抽十到二十根大麻烟，吃一把药片，但我还是照样跑步，照样开会，照样去训练。

Where I could smoke 10 to 20 blunts a day, take a handful of pills a day, and I'd still go running, I'd still do all my meetings, I'd still go to practice.

我就是在硬撑着。

I was just functioning.

不过，AM那时候应该已经戒酒十年或十五年了。

AM though, I think was already probably ten years, fifteen years sober.

哇。

Wow.

他总是说，嘿，来开个会吧，你知道吗？

He'd always be like, Hey, come to a meeting, you know?

我去参加了一次会议，看他发言。

I went to a meeting, watched him talk in a meeting one time.

太棒了。

It was amazing.

太美了。

It was beautiful.

我记得当时我在考虑要不要结束这段关系。

I remember at the time I was contemplating, like, leaving my relationship.

那会儿我正处于一种状态，巡演的时候靠药物撑着，一回到家就想离开孩子。

I was in this place where I'm on tour, I'm medicating to be on tour to leave my children when I get home.

当时的伴侣想让我一起出去派对狂欢，但这完全不是我想要的。

My partner at the time wanted, let's go and party right when I'd get home, and it was the opposite of what I wanted to do.

巡演期间我从不去夜店或酒吧玩。

I was never out partying or going out to bars or clubs when I was on tour.

我那时候只是靠自我药疗来熬过那段不在家的日子。

I was just self medicating to get through being gone.

所以巡演回来之后，我根本不想出门。

So when I came home from tour, I never wanted to go out.

我也不想喝酒。

I never wanted to drink.

我只想跟孩子们待在一起，但我们当时经常吵架。

I just wanted to lock in with the kids, And we were disagreeing a lot.

亚当说过，因为我说过，兄弟，我不知道，我真的不知道。

And Adam had said, because I had said, man, I don't I don't know.

我觉得我可能，我可能撑不下去了。

I don't I think I might I might be done.

而他会挑战我。

And he would challenge me.

他会说，你得清醒四十八小时才能做任何重大决定。

He would say, you gotta be sober for forty eight hours before you make any, like, big decisions.

你需要完全保持清醒。

You need to just completely be sober.

然后我们还会去看一个治疗师，他也帮助处理酗酒和毒品之类的问题，所以我会去找他，我们实际上会一起去看他。

And then we'd also see this one therapist that also helped with alcohol abuse and narcotics and stuff, so I would go see him, we'd actually go see him together.

所以他对我的影响真的很好，他不仅仅是我一起玩音乐的好朋友。

So he was just such a good influence on me, he was more than just someone I jammed with who was like a dear friend.

听到这些真的很美好，我想他看起来也是个好的影响，一个积极的……

It's so beautiful to hear about that, and I imagine he seems like a good influence too, like a positive

最好的，是的。

The best, yeah.

那是我们唯一真正不同的地方，因为我不清醒。

That was the only way we were really different is because I wasn't sober.

我想带你回到2008年9月，你之前提到过，至少在纪录片里，感觉那是一个典型的夜晚，你和亚当在南卡罗来纳州演出，我想是那样。

I wanted to take you back to September 2008, which you were referring to earlier, and at least in the doc, it feels like it's a typical night, you and Adam are playing a show in South Carolina, think it was.

然后你离开去机场回家。

And then you left to the airport to go home.

我想让你带我回到纪录片里的那个时刻，你开车到飞机旁，这对你来说很正常，但你感觉到那一刻有些不对劲。

I want you to take me back to that moment in the documentary where like you're pulling up to this plane, which is normal for you, but you kind of sense in that moment that something doesn't feel quite right.

是的。

Yeah.

你能带我回到那个时刻吗？

Like, you take me back to that moment?

嗯，那场演出从一开始就，那是我在之前，比如那个周末，我想是在周末，是周六或周日，但到了周四，我对我的经理说，现在退出是不是太晚了？

Well, mean that show to begin with was like, it was a show that I had, like, right before, like, that that weekend, I think it was on a weekend, it was, like, on a Saturday or Sunday, but when Thursday came around, had said to my manager, is it too late to just pull out?

就是，我真的没必要非得去，你知道吗？

Like, I don't really need to do this, you know?

我记得是夏天，我当时特别享受在家陪孩子们的感觉。

It was summer, I think, and I was just so content with being home with the kiddos.

他就说，兄弟，这么晚了你不能取消啊，你知道吗？

And he's like, bro, you can't cancel this late, you know?

所以最后我还是飞过去了。

So I ended up flying out there.

说实话，飞过去那趟还挺顺利的。

I had a pretty good flight out there, honestly.

我和小克里斯还有杰一起去的，其实还行，但那是计划好的航班。

I went with me and little Chris and Jay, and it wasn't bad, but it was a planned flight.

那是一架更好的私人飞机。

It was a nicer private plane.

我从来都不太喜欢坐私人飞机，但我觉得他们安排得挺折腾的，你知道吗？

I never loved flying on private planes, but I think they had, it was an ordeal, you know?

所以我就想，好吧。

So I was like, okay.

飞到那边去，当我离开跟巴马说再见的时候，她也哭了，那时候她还小，三四岁。

Fly out there, and when I leave and I say bye to Bama, she also calls it, and she's young at the time, she's three or four years old.

她说，爸爸别走，然后哭得稀里哗啦的，她平时不这样的。

She's like, dad, don't go, and she's bawling, and she doesn't usually do that.

她说，屋顶要塌了。

She's like, the roof's gonna come off.

屋顶要塌了，我就想，她在说什么呢？

The the roof's gonna come off, and I'm like, what is she talking about?

我甚至都回到屋里，问她，宝贝，怎么了？

Like, to the point where I, like, went back in the house, and I was like, what's going on, baby?

我到了那边，演完出，本来打算第二天早上走，但跟我一起的其他人好像都急着回家。

Like, you know, I get there, play our show, and then we're we're supposed to leave the next morning, but everyone else that was with me kinda was, like, was in a hurry to get home.

所以我们临时订了一架私人飞机。

So we booked a private plane super last minute.

通常要订飞机得走一堆流程，因为即使在那次事故之前，我也会问，飞行员是谁？

There's usually a bunch of hoops to jump through to book me a plane because even back then without an accident, I was like, who's the pilots?

飞机有没有做过维护？

Is the has the plane been maintenance?

你知道，我想知道所有细节，但那些都没做。

What's the you know, I wanna know everything, and none of that stuff happened.

哦，那天没检查。

Oh, it wasn't checked that day.

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

没有。

No.

我是说，他们可能尽力了，但时间太紧，而且没人想那么多，你懂吧？

I mean, to to the best of of their ability, but it was so last minute, and I and no one's thinking, you know?

因为那时候大家都说，Trav，说真的，你不可能遇到空难的，别想了。

Because at this time, everyone's like, Trav, realistically, you're never gonna get in a plane crash, stop.

你知道吗？

You know?

每次我坐飞机，马克和汤姆甚至都会说，哥们，你为什么紧张得手都发白了？

Every flight I'd be on, like, Mark and Tom even would be, you know, before that, they'd be like, dude, why are you white knuckling?

我会拿着我妈的念珠，紧紧握着，我费了好大劲才敢坐飞机，每次降落的时候，我都会说，我要做到，我要做到，然后感觉特别庆幸能回到地面上。

Like, I would have a rosary that I would hold on to, that was my mom's rosary, and I was like, it took everything in me to fly where, like, when we'd land, I'd be like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna I felt, like, just so grateful to be, you know, back on land.

我觉得当时没有什么流程。

There was no protocol, I don't believe.

我们就随便订了个航班。

We just booked something.

我们大概十一点或午夜到机场。

Think I we get to the airport around eleven or midnight.

雾很大。

It's foggy.

我们到了机场。

We show up to the airport.

我们经过这个私人机场跑道附近的所有飞机，然后远处有一架很小的飞机，我们开到那架飞机旁边，我就想，这不可能我们的飞机吧。

We pass by all the the planes that are near the runway at this private airport, and then there's one plane in the distance that's really small, and we pull up to that plane, and I'm like, this this can't be our plane.

绝对不可能。

There's no way.

然后他们说，是的。

And then they're like, yep.

就是这架飞机，以至于我打电话给我爸，给他看这架飞机，还有我朋友。

This is the plane, to the point where I call my dad and show him the plane to my pal.

有种不好的预感，就是，我不知道。

Have an awful feeling, like this I just I don't know.

这飞机太小了，朋友。

This plane's small, pal.

我感觉怪怪的。

I feel weird.

我记得我当时挺难过的，我爸就说，别这样。

And I remember I was, like, upset where my dad was like, come on.

就像，你肯定会没事的。

Like, you're you're gonna be okay.

上了飞机。

Got on the plane.

那是种特别小的飞机，两个飞行员里，有一个基本上就是空乘，关上门之后就直接进驾驶舱了，你懂的？

It was one of those planes that's so small that the the two pilots, like, one of the pilots is basically your flight attendant, closes the door and then goes in the in the cockpit, you know?

然后嘛，剩下的就是众所周知的事了。

And then, yeah, the rest is history.

但我当时就感觉到了，真的感觉到了，甚至觉得哪里不对劲。

But I knew, I knew before, like, to the point where I was like, something feels off.

我还跟我爸说，万一我出了什么事，一定要照顾好孩子们，我当时真是话太多了。

I even told my dad, if something happens to me, please make sure the kids are taken care of, please make sure like, I was saying way too much.

对，所有迹象都表明，现在的我会直接决定不上飞机了。

Yeah, All the signs were there for, like, now older me would just say, I think I'm not gonna get on the plane.

对，相信你的直觉。

Yeah, trust your buddy.

对，但所有迹象都在那儿，全都在。

Yeah, but everything was there, everything.

而且你一直都有这种恐惧，因为你不想离开孩子们，你担心如果自己出了什么事孩子们会怎样，但在这个特别的时刻，你感到额外的沉重和压抑。

And you've always had this fear anyway because you don't wanna be away from the kids, you were worried that what would happen to the kids if something ever happened to you, and then, but in this moment specifically, you're feeling like this extra weight and heaviness.

是的。

Yeah.

我甚至都把它说出来了，还跟人讨论。

I even call it out and talk about it.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，我跟我爸说，他说你会没事的，你会好好的，孩子，上飞机吧，而我却哭得稀里哗啦的，这太不像我了。

You know, my dad and saying like, you're gonna be fine, like, you're gonna be good, boy, like, get on the plane, you know, and I'm like, balling, which is so out of character for me.

我就说，我不知道，老兄。

I'm, like, I don't know, pal.

就是，我只是觉得，我不知道。

Like, I just feel I don't know.

我以前从来没有过这种感觉。

And I never felt like that before.

你的纪录片展示了坠机当晚的911电话录音。

Your documentary shows the nine one one footage from the night of the crash.

对。

Yeah.

我们也能听到你的声音。

And we can hear you as well.

你几乎是全身着火跳下飞机的。

You've jumped off the plane with almost your entire body on fire.

我甚至无法想象在飞机在你身后爆炸时你还能保持清醒，跟我讲讲你对那个恐怖时刻还记得什么吧。

I can't even imagine being like conscious in that when the plane's exploding behind you, like just walk me through what you can even remember of that horrific moment.

我像往常一样在飞行前自己服了药。

I had self medicated like I always do right before the flight.

我当时只是在等起飞。

I was kinda just waiting for takeoff.

没有任何沟通，所以没人会说好的。

There's no communication, so no one's gonna be like, okay.

我们正准备起飞，因为大家都坐在前面。

We're getting ready to take off because they're all in the front.

克里斯在睡觉。

Chris is sleeping.

切斯也在睡觉。

Chase is sleeping.

我觉得亚当在睡觉。

I think Adam's sleeping.

我倒是清醒得很。

I'm wide awake.

然后我们就起飞了。

And then we take off.

突然传来一声巨大的响声，听起来像枪声一样，飞机开始失控打转。

There's, like, just a huge loud noise that sounded like gunshots, and the plane spirals out of control.

我们起飞了，但是机舱里充满了烟雾。

We take off, but there's, like, smoke filling our our cabin.

我们一会儿上升，一会儿下降，就像在跑道上撞来撞去，然后又升起来，再撞跑道，到那时机舱里已经全是火了。

We're going up, and we're going down, and we're, like, hitting hitting the runway, and then going back up, hitting the runway, and there's full fire in the cabin by then.

我当时就等着眼前一黑。

I was just waiting for lights out.

我心里想，这真的发生了。

I was like, this is really happening.

我简直不敢相信。

I just couldn't believe it.

我最害怕的事情发生了，到现在我还觉得像电影一样，感觉不真实，我只是紧紧抓住，抱住自己，当然系着安全带，但这次我连前面都看不见，我们不断升空，最后终于降下来，撞上了堤岸，我还醒着，我还活着，周围全是火，所以我的本能就是逃出飞机。

My biggest fear is happening, which still, it feels like a movie to me, it doesn't even feel real, and I'm just holding on, embracing myself, I have my seatbelt on obviously, but this time I can't even see in front of me, We we keep going up in the air, then we finally go down one last time and we hit an embankment, and I'm still awake, and I'm alive, and there's fire all around me, so my instinct is to get out of the plane.

我试着往前走，想去救AM和Che，我的手和胳膊着火了。

I try going forward to try to get to AM and Che, and my hands catch fire in my arms.

我惊慌失措，因为我身上着火了。

I'm panicking because I'm on fire.

我往左边走。

I go to my left.

我摇了摇AM。

I shake AM.

AM醒了，AM旁边没有火。

AM wakes up, and there's no fire near AM.

我打开了紧急出口。

I open the emergency exit.

我直接跳进了喷气机里。

I jump right into the jet.

那里全是燃料。

That's where all the fuel is.

我全身都着火了，然后我就跑。

My whole body catches fire, and then I run.

我就像在高速公路上跑，然后我把衣服脱了。

I'm like I'm like running against the highway, and I just strip.

我就试着把衣服脱掉，跑了好长一段路，不知道跑了多少英尺，突然听到有人喊‘停下，趴下，打滚’，我压根没想到过这个，我就停下，趴下，打滚。

I just try taking my clothes off, and after I don't know how many feet of running a long time, I just hear someone go, stop, drop, and roll, which I never thought about once, and I stop, drop, and roll.

AM过来了，因为我的袜子浸满了航空燃油，他就帮我拍灭脚上的火，过了几分钟，我不知道，飞机爆炸了，大概就是警察的录像，他们的行车记录仪拍到的时候，然后就被送到烧伤中心，在烧伤中心待了六个月。

AM comes because my socks are just soaked in jet fuel, and he's, like, patting out my my feet, and a few, I don't know, a few minutes later, the plane blows up and then that's probably right around the time the police footage, like their dash cam footage is, and then it's, you know, being taken to a burn center in six months in a burn center.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

本期节目由亚马逊健康赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Amazon Health.

在播客继续之前，我需要你填写37份关于你收听历史的表格。

Before this podcast continues, I need you to fill out 37 forms about your listening history.

我等着。

I'll wait.

算了。

Forget it.

那太荒谬了。

That would be ridiculous.

对，我们每次需要医疗保健的时候都这么做。

Yeah, we all do it every time we need health care.

但新的亚马逊健康AI不一样。

But the new Amazon Health AI is different.

它能把你的症状和病史联系起来，提供全天候的个性化护理。

It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 20 fourseven.

亚马逊健康AI来了。

Amazon Health AI is here.

医疗保健变得更轻松了。

Healthcare just got less painful.

即使现在听你描述，我都起鸡皮疙瘩，因为那太痛苦了，尤其是飞机上还有其他人。然后我想，你在烧伤中心最初几天和几周是怎么度过的？

Even hearing you describe that now, just get chills because it's just such a so painful to hear even, especially with the other people on on the plane as well, and then I'm like, what is what is the first few days and weeks look like for you in the burn center?

我先在奥古斯塔，我记得那里的点点滴滴。

I'm in Augusta first, and I remember little things in Augusta.

我记得马克和他妻子来看我。

I remember Mark and his wife coming to visit me.

我记得我爸爸在那里。

I remember my dad being there.

我记得孩子们在医院外面搭架子鼓，我能听到鼓声，那真的很酷，我当时迷迷糊糊的，但神奇的是，我到现在还记得。

I remember kids setting up drum kits outside the hospital, and, like, I could hear drumming, which was pretty cool, and I was so out of it, but it's amazing, I can still remember that.

他们基本上建议我去洛杉矶的格罗斯曼烧伤中心，因为那是最好的烧伤中心，我全身大约百分之七十被烧伤。

They basically had suggested I get to Grossman Burn Center in LA because it was the best burn center, and I had about seventy percent of my body burnt.

百分之七十？

Seventy percent?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我

So I

坐上了巴士，和医生还有护士一起坐巴士去的，因为我不能坐飞机。

got on a bus, and I traveled via bus with the doctor and a nurse because I couldn't fly.

到了格罗斯曼烧伤中心。

Got to Grossman Burn Center.

记得他们没法给我用对止痛药，因为我自我用药太久了，他们的止痛药对我一点用都没有，所以

Remember they couldn't get my my pain medication right because I was self medicating for so long that their pain medication would do nothing for me, so

所以你还是会疼？

I So you'd still be in pain?

是的，所以我那时候是个很糟糕的病人，我觉得很内疚，一开始我不是个好病人，因为我会在手术中醒来，不知道发生了什么。

Yeah, so I was an awful patient, I felt really bad, I was not a great patient in the beginning because I would wake up during surgeries, and I wouldn't know what's happening.

我以为，我不知道你怎么想。

I thought, I don't know what you think.

你觉得有人在攻击你？

You think someone's attacking you?

你只是很疼。

You're just in pain.

周围都是人。

There's all these people around you.

所以我好像打了Grossman医生，他救了我的命，你知道，我当时完全糊涂了，他后来告诉我，他说，那是因为你自我用药太久了，我没法给你用对止痛药。

So I think I swung on doctor Grossman who saved my life, you know, so I was like, I was just so out of it, and he later told me, he's like, It's because you had been self medicating for so long, I couldn't get your pain meds right.

我在那儿待了挺长时间，我想着做了几十次手术。

I was there for a long time, I think I had 30 something surgeries while I was there.

我当时真没意识到事情的严重性。

I didn't really understand the severity of everything.

我对发生的一切都不了解。

I didn't know everything that had happened.

他们得告诉我克里斯汀·蔡在飞机失事中遇难了。

They had to tell me that Kristen Chae passed away in the plane crash.

我就想问问他们在医院的哪个位置，能不能去见他一面。

I thought I would ask where they are in the hospital and if I could go see him.

那会儿我状态特别差，药劲儿也上来了，整个人迷迷糊糊的，根本不知道发生了什么。

I wasn't in a good place and I was so medicated, I didn't really know what was going on.

所以，对啊，在那种情况下待着本来就挺难的，还错过了他们的葬礼。

So, like, yeah, it was hard being in there and missing their funerals.

是因为你住院了吗？

Because you were in hospital?

是的，我在医院里，然后他们就说，你知道吗，我们可能得截掉你的脚。

Yeah, I'm in the hospital, and then then they're like, you know, we might have to we might have to amputate your foot.

你会有各种想法。

Say you have all these thoughts.

当你能在那种地方理清思绪的时候，我就会想，这到底是怎么回事？怎么会发生这种事？

When when you're able to process your thoughts in there, when I had those moments, I would just be like, what the you know, like, how how did this happen?

你就是不敢相信，你知道吗，而且当我回想起来，我不只是一个全身百分之七十烧伤的病人。

You're just in disbelief, you know, and, like, when I think about it, I wasn't just a patient that was, like, seventy percent burn.

我还在承受失去的痛苦，你知道，我两个最好的朋友。

I was, like, dealing with loss, you know, two of my best friends.

还有飞机失事的创伤，我一直在和心理创伤医生交谈。

Was also, like, the trauma of being in a plane crash was, like, I was talking to a post traumatic doctor all the time.

也许最能治愈我的事情就是见到我的孩子们，但我见不到他们，因为我基本上就是一个巨大的开放性伤口，你知道吗？

The thing that would have been probably the most healing would have been to see my kids, but I couldn't see them because I was like, basically a huge open wound, you know?

所以那真的很难。

So it was it was difficult.

那次你过了多久才见到你的孩子？

How long before you saw your kids that time?

你还记得吗？

Do you remember?

我想大概三个月后，他们能到外面的阳台上，我能远远地看他们一会儿，但那是最难熬的时刻。

I think about three three months in, I was able to they were able to come outside on a balcony, and I was able to see them for a little bit, but that was the hardest thing.

我觉得一旦我离开烧伤中心，和他们在一起的时候，那就是我的力量。

I felt like as soon as I got out of the burn center, when I was with them, that was like, that was my strength.

离死亡那么近是什么感觉？那如何改变了你对生活的看法？

How was it having been so close to death, like, how that changed how you feel about living?

我一直在与幸存者内疚作斗争。

I was struggling with survivor's guilt.

那很难理解，比如我本该怎样活着。

That was hard to to comprehend, like, how how I was supposed to be.

直到最近我才终于能对自己说，好吧，为了纪念他们而活，做能让他们骄傲的事。

It wasn't actually until recently where I could finally be like, okay, live in their honor and do what would make them proud.

最近发生了什么让你意识到这一点？

What changed recently for you to realize that?

我到了一个地步，你知道，我二十年没飞过，有一天突然被触动了。

I got to a place where, you know, I didn't fly for twenty years and something hit me one day.

我心想，天哪，自从飞机失事以来，我整个余生都没再飞过。

I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm living the whole rest of my life since the plane crash, like, not flying.

然后我意识到，这件事对我的控制力太大了。

And I'm like, this thing has, like, so much power over me.

如果有一件事我必须解决，那就是这个。

If there's, like, one thing I gotta figure out, I gotta figure that out.

我甚至不知道该怎么形容，但我每天醒来都会想到它。

I don't even know what to compare it to, but I would wake up and I would think about it.

是的。

Yeah.

无论是乐队说，嘿。

Whether it would be the band saying, hey.

你会有这样的邀请去这里演出，我是说，一开始通常都是这样，但我真的会想，我根本不在乎什么演出。

You have, like, this offer to go play here or I mean, that's what it that's what it usually was in the beginning, but I would really I'd be like, I don't care about any shows.

我什么都不在乎。

I don't care about whatever.

我的孩子们不坐飞机。

My kids didn't fly.

我们就像，我们二十四小时都在大巴上，或者在船上。

We were we were, like, we were on buses twenty four seven or on boats.

我会坐玛丽皇后二号从纽约去伦敦。

I would take the Queen Mary two from New York to London.

所以我对此没意见，但那时我内心有一团火在燃烧，就是想要抗争，我真的很生气，我想，我不能就这样死掉，你知道吗？

So I was fine with it, but then there was this piece of me that burning inside that was just wanted to fight, and I was, like, so pissed off, and I was like, I can't I can't die like this, you know?

大约在那段时间，不是想跳来跳去，但是，考特尼和我，我的妻子，真的很有共鸣，她说，有好多地方我想和你一起去，带你去，我说，我不坐飞机。

And around the time, not to skip around, but, like, Kourtney and I had, like, really connected my wife, and she was like, oh, there's so many places I wanna go with you and take you, and I'm like, I don't fly.

你知道吗，我心里想，她太酷了，她说，不，那些地方我们都可以坐你的巡演大巴去，或者开车去，所以我们就这样做了，然后我有一个按摩师，我一直和她合作。

You know, in my head I'm thinking, she was so cool, she was like, no, they're all places like we can go on your tour bus to, or we can drive to, so we were doing that, and then I had a massage therapist that I was working with all the time.

她说，你知道，我可以一直给你做按摩，但你有很多创伤。

She's like, you know, like, I can always, like, give you, like, treatments, but, like, you have a lot of trauma.

我通过按摩就能感觉到。

I can tell by massaging you.

你应该试试呼吸练习，因为你可能会释放所有这些创伤，她说，你一直压抑的那些创伤和东西，时间长了也可能导致癌症，然后她就，我不知道。

You should try doing breath work because you might release all this trauma, and she's like, all the trauma and stuff that you're holding on to can also, like, cause cancer over time, and she just I don't know.

不管为什么，她说的那些话真的让我印象深刻。

For whatever reason, whatever she said to me, it really stuck.

所以在呼吸练习、希望我的孩子们能坐飞机、以及我自己能再次坐飞机的愿望之间，有一天我就说了。

So between, like, breath work, the want and desire for my kids to fly and for me to fly again, I just said it one day.

我对我妻子说，如果你有任何想去的地方，但开车或坐船到不了，需要坐飞机的话，就直接订票，别告诉我，我会去的。

I said to my wife, I said, if you ever have, like, an idea of somewhere you wanna fly that we can't, like, drive to or take a boat, just book it, don't tell me about it, and I'll do it.

但我不想提前知道太多，因为我不想说服自己不去。

But I don't wanna know too much because I don't wanna talk myself out of it.

所以我们就这么做了。

So that that's just what we did.

我就是有一天突然说了这句话。

I just said it one day.

说到愈合过程，我觉得就像你说的，像一道敞开的伤口，而且身体百分之七十被烧伤，那听起来就是最痛苦的六个月的愈合过程之一。

And with the healing, I mean, I feel like being, like you said, an open wound, I mean, and having seventy percent of your body burned, that sounds like one of the most painful six month healing processes.

那是最糟糕的。

It was the worst.

是着火的过程还是植皮的过程，我觉得我们在纪录片里分享了一些照片，但大部分都没法放进去，因为太血腥了。

Being on fire or the process of skin grafts, I think we share a little bit of photos in my documentary, but we couldn't include most of it because it's too graphic.

那很可怕，经历所有手术和一切，那是个可怕的过程。

It's awful, and it's an awful process to go through all the surgeries and everything.

我很感激我挺过来了，而且格罗斯曼医生救了我的命。

I'm grateful that I I got through it all, and doctor Grossman, like, saved my life.

他们说当我被送到那里时，情况危及生命。

They say when I got in there, it was life threatening.

是的。

Yeah.

感恩。

Grateful.

而且我在烧伤中心遇到的大多是孩子，这让我特别难受，都是些做饭意外之类的。

And most of the people I was in the burn center with were kids, which really bummed me out, just cooking accidents and stuff like that.

我看到了最糟糕的情况。

I just saw I saw the worst stuff.

我当时住的那栋楼在洛杉矶山谷区的范奈斯附近，现在已经不是医院了，但我可以开车经过那里，看看那栋楼，我就能待在那里。

That building I was in is off Van Nuys in Los Angeles in the valley, and there's it's no longer a hospital, but I can drive by there and look at that building, and I just I can just be there.

你知道吗？

You know?

纪录片里你有一句话，你说你在医院的时候想自杀。

There's a quote of yours in the documentary where you say, I was suicidal when I was in the hospital.

我愿意转任何金额的钱。

I'll transfer any amount of money.

只要杀了我。

Just kill me.

对。

Mhmm.

跟我说说你康复过程中最黑暗的一天吧，你是怎么挺过来的？

Talk to me about the darkest day you had as you were recovering and how did you even begin to pull through that?

那大概是在我发现杰和克里斯也在医院另一个病房的时候。

That was about the time where I found out Jay and Chris were in another room at the hospital.

我彻底崩溃了。

I had lost it.

而且医生也没法告诉我什么时候能出院，我看不到孩子，还要截掉我的脚。

And then the doctors not really being able to give me a time when I'd get out, couldn't see my kids, amputate my foot.

感觉就像隧道尽头没有光一样。

There was like, there was no light at the end of the tunnel.

我只是在寻找点什么，你知道吗？

I was just looking for something, you know?

那时候，我认识Skinhead Rob，他和我一起在Transplants乐队，或者说是我的一个哥们儿，你懂的。

And at the time, I knew I knew Skinhead Rob, who was in the transplants with me, or one of my buddies, you know?

我当时就想，求求了，我真的撑不下去了。

I was like, just please, like, I can't do this.

感觉就像在地狱里煎熬一样，你懂吧？

I feel like literally living in hell, you know?

现在回想起来，我最不想做的就是离开孩子或者那样走出去，但当时真的是绝望到了极点。

Obviously now when I think back, it's the last thing I'd wanna do is be away from my children or go out like that, but it was just desperation.

就像我刚才说的，看不到任何希望。

It was, like I said, no light at the end of the tunnel.

你和亚当当时是互相扶持吗？因为你们俩都活下来了。

Were you and Adam supporting each other because you'd both survived?

有没有一种……

Was there a

我想他大概有百分之六的身体被烧伤了。他之所以受伤，是因为好心过来帮我拍灭火焰，结果脖子附近之类的地方也被烧到了。

I think he had about six percent of his body burnt, and he was only burnt because he was nice enough to try to pat me out, and he he ended up, like, getting burnt by his neck or something.

他在烧伤中心进进出出，一周后就出院了，而且又能飞行了，我简直不敢相信。

He was in and out of the burn center in a week, and he was flying again, which I just I I couldn't even believe that.

我当时就想，他在干什么？

I was like, he's doing what?

这也给了我希望，我为他感到骄傲，但我简直无法接受他还能飞。

It also gave me hope, and I was I was proud of him, but I I couldn't even process that he was flying.

我们出院后，经常花很多时间聊各自对事故的记忆。

When we got out, him and I would spend a lot of time just talking about what each of us remembered from the accident.

他还研究过一种治疗方法，可以重新训练大脑，希望能忘记发生的事。

He'd also looked into this treatment where we could retrain our brains, where we'd hopefully, like, forget what happened.

我觉得他确实试过，但他说，我永远不会低头看我的手、我的腿，也不会忘记发生了什么，因为我失去了两个最好的朋友，我不可能忘记他们是怎么离开我的，你知道吗？

I think he actually did a and had said, there's no way I'm ever gonna look down at, like, my hands, my legs, or forget what happened, because I lost, and my two best friends, there's not a scenario where I forget how they left me, you know?

再次为你的损失感到难过，兄弟，这真是难以想象。

I'm sorry for your loss again, man, It's it's unfathomable.

谢谢。

Thank you.

没有人能想象，也无法真正体会失去两个最好的朋友是什么感觉。

No one can imagine and really empathize with what that feels like to lose your two best friends in that way.

是的。

Yeah.

这大概是我第十次接受关于这件事的采访了，每次都会好一些，但我也说不好。

It's like probably the tenth interview I've done on it, it's like it gets better every time, but it's like, I don't know.

我觉得这件事我永远都没法轻松地谈论，你知道，不可能不受影响。

I don't think it'll be something I can ever just talk about and, you know, not be affected by it or something, you know.

不是说每次都会更容易，但我觉得我永远都不可能轻轻松松地讲完这件事。

It's not like it gets easier every time, but I don't think it'll be ever something I can just breeze through, you know.

谈论它、回忆它，对你有帮助吗？

Does it help talking about it And remembering it?

还是说回忆他们？

Or remembering them?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得每次都会更容易一些，但还是，你知道，就像重新揭开一个伤口。

I mean, I feel like it gets easier every time, but it's still, you know, it's still like a a wound you open back up.

我觉得最难的部分，我是说，你知道，当你看纪录片的时候，然后你发现亚当也去世了。

I think the hardest part about it all, I mean, this is you know, when you're watching the documentary, it's like, and then you find out that Adam passes away too.

那一刻你会想，什么？

It's that moment where you're like, what?

就像，你怎么可能经历每一个这样的时刻，当然还有那些人，以及爱他们的人和他们爱的人也在经历这些，我只是觉得纪录片里那部分对我来说是最糟糕的。

Like, how can you possibly live through each and every one of these moments and of course those individuals and the people that love them and the people they loved going through that as well, I'm just that that part in the documentary for me is like you know the worst.

是的。

Yeah.

那仍然是最糟糕的。

It's still the worst

对我来说也是，你知道。

for me too, know.

在纪录片里，从我的母亲开始，那仍然很难。

In the documentary, it starts with my mom, which is still hard.

那次事故，克里斯和杰。

The accident, Chris and Jay.

还有那两位飞行员，以及亚当。他是我生命里最重要的角色，一直那么鼓舞人心、充满正能量，是个极好的榜样。他也是特别好的朋友，还一直保持清醒，一直努力让我戒酒，毕竟我们一直是好朋友嘛。

Obviously, the two pilots too, and then Adam, the one person who's like this main character in my life who's always such an inspiration and so positive and just being a great example, know, being a great friend and also being sober and trying to get me sober, you know, the whole time we're friends and stuff.

真的，太让人难受了。

It's just yeah.

感觉就像这部电影迎来了最糟糕的结局，你懂吧？

It's like the the worst ending to that movie, you know?

尤其是因为我们在纪录片里了解到，医生给他开了重新服用阿普唑仑（Xanax）的药方，对吧？

Especially is because we we learn in the documentary that he was prescribed to get back on Xanax, right?

再次坐飞机。

To fly again.

对。

Yeah.

就像我之前在医院时，他得飞去美国，但我当时被开了安定（Xanax）的药，而且我觉得周围没人知道这件事。

It's like what I talked about when I'm in the hospital and he's flying, but I don't know, been prescribed Xanax, and I don't think anyone around him knows.

你提到了幸存者内疚。

You mentioned survivor's guilt.

我当时就想，那时候你怎么可能处理得了这些？

I was like, how do you even begin to process that at the time?

因为你身体上承受着痛苦，心理上还有创伤，而且你有一种直觉，知道自己不该上那架飞机。

Because you're going through physical pain, there's emotional trauma, there's an intuitive sense that you knew you shouldn't have got on the plane.

而且，你还失去了朋友，失去了你所说的生命中的主角朋友。

I mean, and then you've got the loss of friends and a loss of, as you said, main character friend in your life.

这几乎就像是一个人怎么能扛得住这一切？

Like it's it's almost like how does one person even carry all of this?

现在回想起来，我觉得那时候我就像是在流血不止。

When I think about it, I feel like I was just bleeding out at that point.

我当时觉得，我完了，你知道吗？

I was like, I was done, you know?

我连一件事都还没处理好，就有太多事情同时发生。

It was like I couldn't even get one thing to try to get over before there was, you know, there was like, there was so much happening all at once.

有我的事故，有飞机上朋友和所有人的离去，还有亚当，还有想到小克里斯留下的家人。

There was my accident, there was like the loss of my friends and everyone in that plane, then Adam, and then thinking about like little Chris's family that he left behind.

当时想了很多，想到每个人的家庭，想到他们留下的亲人，你知道吗？

There was there was so much thinking of everyone's family, everyone left behind, you know?

做小克里斯儿子的好教父，他儿子是我的教子，和克里斯的妈妈琳达、蔡斯的妈妈塞尔玛保持很好的关系，还有让AM的精神延续下去，这是我所能做的最好的事情。

Being a great godfather to little Chris' son, who's my godson, and having a great relationship with Chris' mom, Linda, and Chase mom, Thelma, and keeping AM's legacy alive, that's like the best I can do.

你知道吗？

You know?

或者感觉就像我在和他们一起工作，在纪念他们。

Or it feels like I'm working with them, like honoring them.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

我很高兴你能把这件事重新定义为纪念他们，因为很明显他们对你的重要性，以及他们对你的影响有多大，你对他们有多么敬重。

I'm I'm happy that you've been able to reframe that to being honoring them because it's evident how important they are to you and how much of an influence they've had on you and how you carry them in such high esteem.

这就是纪录片里所展现出来的。

And that's what comes across in the documentary.

哪怕现在坐在这儿跟你聊，我都觉得，是的，这些人是你深深深爱着的。

Even today as I'm sitting with you, I'm like, yeah, these are people that you deeply, deeply love.

他们也给了我力量，我觉得呼吸练习确实帮了我大忙。

They also like give me strength, I feel like breath work definitely helped me.

我和妻子、孩子之间的爱也支撑着我，而且我感觉他们也在帮我，一直陪着我。这也是为什么我会提到我妈妈，我对她的看法也一样。

The power of love with my wife and my children helped me, but I I also feel like they helped me and they're with me, and that's that's why I flag in or, you know, I say the same thing about my mom.

我想，要不是有他们的支持，我不可能带领一支如此成功的乐队，也不可能这么幸运地能在过去这么多年里环游世界巡演。

I'm like, there's no way I gotten one of the most successful bands, and I got so blessed to be able to tour the world for, like, the last hour for many years.

我觉得人走了之后，其实一直都在我们身边。

Like, I feel like when people pass away, they are with you.

那你今天是怎么感受到这种陪伴的呢？

How do you experience that today?

你是怎么在日常生活中感觉到他们存在的呢？

How do you how do you feel their presence today in that way?

我也不太确定。

I don't know.

我一直都是这么觉得的。

I've always felt like that.

你会跟他们说话吗？还是说，不，不是那样。

Do you talk to them or no, that's not Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我总是在上台演出前，会有一个很长的祈祷名单，你知道的，但当他们去世后，我觉得他们和我在一起。

I always like, before I go on show on stage or play shows, always I have a prayer list that's that's so long, you know, but when people pass, feel like they're with me.

我不觉得我会忘记他们，也不觉得他们已经不在了，因为他们通常对我的人生产生了巨大的影响，留下了深刻的印象，我会一直带着这些。

I don't feel like I ever forget about them or I don't feel like they weren't they're not here anymore because they usually had such a big effect on on my life, you know, left such an impression on me that I keep that with me.

这完全能引起共鸣，我觉得你通过分享他们对你的影响，确实在向他们致敬。

That fully resonates, and I think you're definitely honoring them by sharing their influence on your life right now.

是的。

Yeah.

特别是关于飞行，我在想，如果角色互换，是我走了，我最不想看到的就是，比如，我再也不能飞了。

Especially with the flying, I was like, if the roles were reversed and it was me, the last thing I'd wanna do is see, like, AM not fly again.

我会说，赶紧给我上那架飞机。

I'd be like, get your ass on that plane.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

你不能让那件事决定你的余生。

Like, you can't you can't let that determine the rest of your life.

你现在的生活中，有什么会让二十年前的特拉维斯最惊讶？

What about your life today would surprise Travis from twenty years ago the most?

我学会了不要以为自己什么都懂，或者知道会发生什么，或者什么可能什么不可能。

I've learned to not think I have life all figured out or what can happen or what's possible or not possible.

我从没想过我会成为一个新爸爸，你知道吗，成为一个这么棒的小家伙的爸爸，我现在就是。

I never thought I would be a new father, you know, to an amazing little human that I that I am now.

对。

Yeah.

天哪。

Good god.

我从没想过我会再婚，或者再次坠入爱河。

I never thought I would be married again or I would have fallen in love again.

这是最美妙的事情，你知道吗，或者我会有二十多岁的孩子，或者事情会变成什么样。

It's the most, you know, beautiful thing ever or I would have children in their twenties, you know, or how things would be.

我想说，我的孩子们二十多岁了，但不管多大年纪，那种作为父亲的爱永远不会变老，也不会减少。

I would say, my children in their twenties, there's not an age where it gets old or or you don't feel like the same love you have for being their father.

这种爱就是永无止境的。

It's just sort of never ending.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

你和考特尼在开始约会之前就已经认识很多年了。

I mean, you and Kourtney had known each other for years before you ever started dating.

对。

Mhmm.

是什么让你觉得时机成熟，可以进入你们关系的那个阶段了？

What made you know that the timing was right to shift into that phase of your relationship?

就像生活自然发生了。

Just like life happened.

我无法解释。

I can't explain it.

我们彼此住得很近，多年来一直如此。在她之前，我的生活就是每天在录音室待二十个小时，尽量多陪孩子，然后回到录音室。

It was we've lived down the street from each other for years and my life before her was twenty hour studio days, spend as much time as I can with the kids, get back to the studio.

我的生活中没有恋情。

There was no relationship in my life.

我的生活中没有爱情。

There was no love in my life.

但我仍然感到满足。

I still felt fulfilled.

我觉得很完整，因为从孩子们那里得到了很多爱。

I felt complete because I got so much love from my children.

我的意思是，我热爱音乐。

I mean, I love music.