在关系中实现心理健康的四种方式及何时寻求治疗

这是iHeart电台的播客《保证人性化》。

This is an IHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.

大家好，欢迎回到全球排名第一的健康播客《有目的》。

Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.

感谢每一位听众。

Thanks to each and every one of you.

今天，你们将听到我和劳里·戈特利布的对话。

Now, today, what you're going to hear is a conversation between me and Laurie Gottlieb.

她几十年来一直从事家庭和关系治疗工作。

Now she's been a family and relationship therapist for decades.

她也曾是节目的嘉宾。

And she was also a guest on the show.

但今天我们讨论的是心理健康与人际关系。

But today we have a conversation about mental health and relationships.

所以，如果你最近在人际关系中遇到问题，如果你因为封锁而比以往任何时候都更多地与伴侣相处，如果你需要了解如何在关系中管理心理健康，以及何时该寻求治疗、何时该寻求辅导，那么这场对话正是你想要聆听的。

So if you've been having any relationship issues lately, if you feel like you're spending more time with your partner than ever before because of lockdown, if you feel you need to understand how to manage your mental health in relationships and know when therapy is right for you, when coaching is right for you, then this is the conversation you want to listen to.

我觉得你会非常喜欢这一期。

I think you're going to really enjoy this one.

告诉我你从中学到了什么。

Let me know what you learned from it.

在Instagram上标记我和Lori。

Tag me and Lori on Instagram.

我迫不及待想让你听这场对话。

I can't wait for you to listen to this conversation.

嘿，Instagram。

Hey, Instagram.

欢迎来到线上心理健康节HEAL的第二天，本次活动旨在提升对心理健康的认知与了解。

Welcome to day two of online mental health festival HEAL which is all about helping elevate awareness and learning about mental health.

心理健康日——世界心理健康日刚刚过去，我心想，为什么只谈一天心理健康呢？

Mental health day, World Mental Health Day was the Saturday that just went and I thought to myself why just talk about mental health for one day?

让我们整整一周都来讨论它。

Let's talk about it for a whole week.

所以每一天我都会和朋友们连线，和你们聊聊。昨天我们邀请了非凡的米格尔，今天我们要迎来一位杰出的专家——独一无二的劳里·戈特利布。

So every single day I'm jumping on with my friends to talk to you about yesterday we had the incredible Miguel and today we have some of an incredible expert the one and only Laurie Gottlieb.

如果你还没读过她的书，也许你应该找个人聊聊。

If you've not read her book maybe you should talk to someone.

请一定要去看看这本书。

Please check it out.

我现在就请她上线。

I'm gonna bring her on now.

但我很期待今天能和大家探讨心理健康与人际关系。

But I'm excited for day two to talk about mental health and relationships.

非常感谢你们的到来。

So thank you so much for being here.

正在等劳里连接上线。

Just waiting for Laurie to connect.

嗨，劳里，最近怎么样？

Hey Laurie, how's it going?

嗨，你好吗？

Hi, how are you?

我非常好。

I'm really good.

我非常好。

I'm really good.

非常感谢你的收听。

Thank you so much for tuning in.

当然。

Of course.

再次见到你和大家真是太好了，这位是我了不起的朋友劳里·戈特利布，她是一位杰出的精神科医生，写了一本名为《也许你该找个人聊聊》的精彩书籍。

It's so good to see you again and everyone this is my amazing friend Laurie Gottlieb who's an incredible, incredible psychiatrist and has an amazing book called Maybe You Should Talk to Someone.

如果你还没读过，我强烈推荐你读一读。

If you've not read it, I highly recommend it.

我们之前请劳里上过播客。

We had Laurie on the podcast.

她的那一集是我们今年最受欢迎的节目之一。

Her episode was one of our most popular episodes this year.

所以我强烈推荐你们去听一下。但Laurie，非常感谢你为我们做这次访谈。

So, I highly recommend listening to it But Laurie, thank you for doing this for us.

我这周

My this week

很荣幸。

pleasure.

很高兴能和你聊天。

Happy to chat with you.

我知道这周的主题是，你知道的，显然周六是世界心理健康日。

I know this week was all about, you know, obviously Saturday was World Mental Health Day.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很想做点什么。

And I really wanted to do something.

但我意识到，为什么我们只在一天内谈论心理健康呢？

But what I realized was I was like, well, why are we talking about mental health just for just one day?

我们应该每天都在谈论它。

We should talk about it every day.

我们也应该每天都在思考这个问题。

And we should be thinking about this every day.

你多年来一直从事与人际关系、伴侣和个体相关的工作，而我非常欣赏你的专业背景。

And you've been working and what I love about your expertise is you've been working with relationship, people in relationships, couples, individuals for decades now.

我欣赏这一点的原因是，人际关系常常对我们的心理健康产生重大影响。

And what I love about that is sometimes relationships have such a big important impact on our mental health.

所以，你能否先向这里的听众介绍一下你职业生涯中的工作，以及它如何与心理健康相关联？

And so why don't you start off by just telling the community here what you've been doing in your career and how that is linked to mental health.

我认为这对所有背景的听众都会非常有帮助。

I think that would be really useful for everyone in the background.

是的，我认为和你一样，我的使命是帮助人们关注他们的情绪健康，并意识到它的重要性，对吧？

Yeah, well I think like you, I mean my mission is really to help people to focus on their emotional health and to realize its importance, right?

因此，作为一名治疗师，我真正想做的是让心理治疗变得大众化。

And so, what I really want to do as a therapist is democratize therapy.

我想让每个人都能接触到它，让所有人都能方便地获得。

I want to bring it to everybody so that everybody has it accessible to them.

通过我的书《也许你该找个人聊聊》，通过我在《大西洋月刊》的每周专栏《亲爱的治疗师》，通过我的播客《亲爱的治疗师》播客，以及我的TED演讲。

So, through my book, Maybe You should talk to someone, through my weekly column at The Atlantic, Dear Therapist, through my podcast, the Dear Therapist podcast, through my TED Talk.

就像你一样，我只是想让人们意识到这有多么重要，并给予他们实用的工具。

I just, like you, I just want to make people aware of how important this is and to give them tools.

很多人会说：好吧，我知道这很重要，但我该怎么做呢？

A lot of people will say, Okay, I know that it's important but what do I do?

我该采取哪些步骤？

What steps do I take?

当你谈到人际关系时，我认为这是首先要关注的一点。

And when you talk about relationship, I think that's one of the first things.

当有人来找我时，我最先问他们的问题之一是：你的生活中有多少人陪伴着你？

One of the first things I say to people when they come in to me is, how is your life peopled?

你生命中有哪些人？这些关系的质量如何？

Who are the people in your life and what is the quality of those relationships?

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我也很喜欢，而且如果你还没听劳里的播客，我强烈推荐《亲爱的治疗师》。

I love that and yes if you don't listen to Laurie's podcast as well I highly recommend it Dear Therapist.

但我想从劳里这里开始谈的是，你提到的那个问题——你生命中有哪些人？我特别喜欢这一点。

But the part of that that I want to start with Laurie is and I love that question you said like you know who are the people in your life?

人们是怎么样的呢？我觉得我最常被问到的问题就是：杰，我身边全是消极的人，我该怎么和他们保持距离？我和他们住在一起。

How do people you know I think this is the number one question I always get asked is Jay I'm just surrounded by negative people and you know how do I create a distance from them, I live with them.

对于那些有这种感受、持这种观点的人，你有什么建议？

What do you have to say to people who come at it from that perspective and feel that way?

当一个人有这样的困扰时，治疗师会引导他们经历怎样的过程？

What is the kind of journey that a therapist takes you on when that's the thing that you're hearing?

是的。

Yeah.

首先，我们周围的人非常重要，因为情绪是会传染的。

So first of all the people that we surround ourselves is so important because what is contagious is mood.

如果你周围的人总是谈论消极的事情，总是让你情绪低落，每次和他们交谈后你都觉得比之前更糟。

So if there is if you are surrounded by people who are always talking about negative things who are always bringing you down, who always when you talk to them, you feel worse than before you talk to them.

对吧？

Right?

或者那些总是关注坏事的人，不仅关注他们自己、这个世界，还关注他人。

Or just people who are always looking at, you know, like bad things not only about about themselves, the world, but about other people.

对吧？

Right?

你也会开始表现出同样的行为。

You are going to start acting that way.

你甚至不会注意到这一点。

You won't even notice it.

这是一种缓慢的转变，突然间你就变成了一个消极的人。

It's a slow transition and all of a sudden you've become a negative person.

所以，我不是说要一直盲目乐观，假装世界上一切都没问题。

And so, I'm not saying like always look on the bright side and you know don't you know just pretend nothing is wrong in the world.

我的意思是，那些正在改变世界、同时关注自己情绪健康的人，这两者是相辅相成的，因为正如你书名和副标题里说的，目标感真的非常重要。

What I'm saying is that people who are making a difference in the world and who are taking care of their emotional health and those two go hand in hand because purpose like you say in your book title, in your subtitle, purpose is really important.

所以，如果你对某些事情不满意，与其抱怨，你又能做些什么来采取行动呢？

So if you think about it, what can you if you don't like something that's going on instead of complaining about it, what are you doing to take action about it?

无论是你个人生活中的问题，比如我感到焦虑或抑郁。

Whether it's something in your own life like I'm anxious or I'm depressed.

你为此做了什么去寻求帮助？

What are you doing to get help for that?

如果你的关系中有什么地方不对劲，你是怎么跟对方沟通的？

If there's something in your relationship that's not working, how are you talking to that person about it?

你做了什么来改善它？

What are you doing to make it better?

如果这个更广阔的世界中有什么让你觉得不公平，你希望去改变它。

If there's something in the greater world that you feel like that's not fair, I wanna change that.

你如何以积极的方式参与其中？

How are you getting involved in a positive way?

所以我认为，当你周围都是这样的人时，也会激励你以同样的方式行动。

So I think that when you're surrounded by people like that, that motivates you to act in that way too.

是的。

Yeah.

这是很好的建议。

That's great advice.

这真的是非常好的建议。

That's really, really great advice.

关键在于要清醒地意识到身边的人是谁，有意识地选择身边的人。

It's about being really conscious about who's around us, being really intentional about who's around us.

我认为有时候人们会感到压力，因为他们会想：‘杰伊，我娶了他们，或者他们是我的妈妈或爸爸。’

And I think sometimes feel the people feel the pressure because they're like, well, Jay, I married them or they're my mom or they're my dad.

那我该怎么办？

What do I do about that?

当有人出现在你身边时，你该怎么说呢？他们就在你的空间里。

What what do you have to say that when someone oh, but they're they're in my space.

比如，他们真的是我最亲近的家人之一。

Like, they're they're literally some of my closest family.

很多时候，人们觉得自己被困住了。

A lot of times people feel trapped.

他们觉得自己无能为力。

They feel like helpless.

我什么都做不了。

I can't do anything.

但事实上，我们随时都有选择。

But the thing is we have choices all the time.

那么，当身边有人消极时，你能做些什么呢？

So, what can you do when someone's being negative around you?

你非得留在通话里吗？

Do you need to stay on the call?

在那一刻，你想要做什么？

What do you want to do in that moment?

这就像是我们现在经常谈论保护身体免疫系统一样，比如应对新冠病毒。

So, it's kind of like when you think about we talk a lot about protecting our physical immune systems right now with like the coronavirus for example.

你同样需要保护你的心理免疫系统。

You have to protect your psychological immune system too.

如果你让这些负面情绪侵入，你就会崩溃，出现心理问题。

And so if you let these toxins in you are going to break down and get psychologically ill.

那么你应该怎么做？

So what do you do?

当你和家人通电话，或者和家人交谈时，他们却非常消极。

So you're on the phone with a family member or you're talking to a family member and they're being really negative.

你知道你可以换个话题。

You know you can change the subject.

你可以聊点别的事情。

You can talk about something else.

你可以说：‘你知道吗，我真得走了，我们改天再聊。’

You can say, you know what I really gotta go let's talk later.

你知道，你可以做很多事情。

Know there are all kinds of things that you can do.

如果你和这个人关系不错，你也可以对他说：‘我注意到，我们聊天时，你总是聚焦在很多负面的事情上。’

And if you have a certain relationship with that person you can also say to them, you know what I noticed that when we talk there's a lot of stuff that you focus on that is negative.

我承认这些事情是真实存在的。

And I acknowledge that these things are real and true.

但我们可以做些什么呢？

But what can we do?

让我们换一种方式来讨论它。

Let's have a different kind of conversation about it.

所以，你在谈论这些不顺利的事情。

So, you're talking about these things that aren't working.

也许我能帮上你。

Maybe I can help you.

也许我们可以一起集思广益，看看如何让事情变得更好。

Maybe we can brainstorm together about how to make things better.

有时候你会遇到拒绝帮助的抱怨者。

Now sometimes you deal with a help rejecting complainer.

拒绝帮助的抱怨者是这样的人：你给他们建议，他们会说‘不行，那没用，因为...’或者‘不行，我做不到，因为...’。

Help rejecting complainers are the people who you give them suggestions and they say no that won't work because or no I can do that because.

我们都认识这种人。

We all know those people.

我们其实也曾经是那样的人。

We've actually been those people.

对吧？

Right?

但你了解那些人，因为每次你试图建议摆脱消极情绪的方法时，他们都会拒绝。

But you know those people because every time you try to suggest a way out of the negativity, they reject it.

他们从消极中获得了某种满足感。

They are getting something out of being negative.

你不必加入他们。

You don't have to join them.

这是很好的建议。

That is great advice.

你不必加入他们。

You don't have to join them.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

你说得对。

And you're right.

我们每个人都有机会离开房间、放下手机、说我们必须走了，以一种尊重的方式发出警示信号。

All of us have the opportunity to leave a room, to put down our phone, to say we have to go, to do it in a respectful way that raises red flags.

那么，洛林，有时候更进一步的步骤呢？

Now what about the step further sometimes, Lorraine?

我确信你在最深层的层面听过这些，我也完全理解我们只是为了Instagram对话而简化了问题，因为如果你真的在和某人合作，你会问一系列问题来深入剖析这种情况。

I'm sure you hear this in the deepest ways and I completely appreciate that we're very simplifying things for an Instagram conversation because if you were working with someone, you would ask them a series of questions to really dissect what this was.

所以我非常感谢你此刻和我一起进行这种Instagram式心理疗愈。

So I appreciate that you're working with me to do Instagram therapy right now.

但如果你从另一个角度想想，当有人说：‘等等，Jay，我意识到真正让我困扰的并不是生活中那些消极的人。',

But if you think about it from the point of view, when someone goes, well actually Jay, I realize that it's not even the people that are negative in my life.

比如，我对自己很消极。

Like, I'm negative towards myself.

比如，问题甚至不是外界的噪音，有时候我们会跟你说：‘Jay，真正困扰我的并不是外界的噪音。',

Like, it's not even the noise like, sometimes we say to me, Jay, it's not even the noise outside me.

而是我内心的噪音在拖垮我。

It's the noise inside me that's bringing me down.

是的。

Right.

有时候，最具毒性的，是我们内心内化的声音。

Sometimes the most toxic thing is the internalized voice inside of ourselves.

我们大多数人对自己都太过苛刻，对自己充满负面评价。

Most of us are so unkind to ourselves, so negative about ourselves.

所以，你知道吗，这很有趣。

So, you know, it's interesting.

我总是问人们，在你的一生中，你最常和谁交谈？

I I, I'm always asking people who's the person that you talk to most in the course of your life?

大多数人以为是他们的伴侣、父母、兄弟姐妹或最好的朋友。

And most people think it's their partners, their parents, their siblings, their best friends.

不是的。

No.

我们和自己交谈的时间比和任何人交谈都多，而且我们对自己如此苛刻。

We talk to ourselves more than we talk to anybody else and we can be so unkind.

不仅苛刻，而且我们说的话往往完全不真实。

And not only unkind but what we say is so untrue.

对吧？

Right?

我们会批评自己。

We'll criticize ourselves.

你知道，你真蠢。

Know, oh you're so stupid.

你永远也做不到。

Oh you'll never get that.

你不够好，做不了这个。

Oh you're not good enough for this.

你今天看起来真糟。

Oh you look terrible today.

我们整天都在不知不觉中侮辱自己。

You know we just insult ourselves throughout the day without even noticing it.

我们允许自己对自己极其残忍。

And we allow ourselves to be incredibly cruel to ourselves.

我们就这样放任它发生。

We allow it.

所以，当我们谈论心理健康时，我很高兴像你说的那样，心理健康不是只有一天或一周的事。

And so, when we talk about mental health and I'm so glad like you said you know mental it's not mental health day or mental health week.

心理健康是一直都存在的。

It's mental health all the time.

我们必须意识到这种声音，并且说：等一下。

We have to be aware of this voice and say wait a minute.

我为什么要把这种声音请进我的脑海？

Why am I inviting this voice into my head?

我为什么会允许别人这样对我说话？

Why would I allow someone to talk to me like that?

最重要的是，我为什么会允许自己这样对自己说话？

And above all why would I allow myself to talk to myself like that?

因为我知道，在某种程度上，这并不是真的。

Because I know on some level that this is not true.

是的。

Yeah.

因为如果这是真的，其他人也会这样想我。

Because if this were true, everybody else would think this about me too.

我的朋友们不觉得我笨。

My friends don't think I'm stupid.

我的朋友们不觉得我丑。

My friends don't think I'm ugly.

我的朋友们不觉得我不够好。

My friends don't think that I'm not good enough.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

这真的很美。

That's really beautiful.

这真的很有趣。

It's really interesting.

你这么说真是太有趣了。

It's so funny you said that.

前几天我在一次主题演讲中对别人说过这句话。

I said that to someone on a keynote the other day.

我让大家写下他们认为自己最常交谈的人是谁。

I asked people to write down who they think is the person they talk to the most.

我还让他们写下他们认为自己对话质量最好和最差的人是谁。

And I asked them to write down who they think they have the best conversations with and the worst conversations with.

人们总是想到别人，而不是自己。

And people always think of other people and not themselves.

所以，我很喜欢你提到这一点，我也很高兴我们正在谈论自我，因为很多人认为自我对话会让他们发疯。

So, love that you mentioned that and I love that we're speaking about self because a lot of people think that self talks makes them crazy.

而且很多人没有意识到，我们其实一直在和自己对话。

And a lot of people think that in terms of like we don't realize we're always talking to ourselves.

对。

Right.

当有人告诉你，你应该跟自己谈谈的时候。

And when someone says, oh, you should talk to yourself.

这很奇怪。

That's weird.

这听起来有点玄乎，但其实我们本来就在这么做，没什么特别的。

That's like, you know, it's kind of a bit woo woo, but it's not because we're doing it anyway.

但能跟我们说说，你怎么知道自己需要看心理医生或接受治疗吗？有哪些迹象？因为我觉得从来没人谈这个。

But tell us about when do you know you need to see a therapist or get therapy like what are the signs for someone because I feel no one ever talks about that.

你怎么知道呢？

How do you know?

别等。

Well, don't.

没人谈这个，但很有趣的是，如果你问别人，身体出现什么症状时该去看医生？

They don't talk about that and it's funny because if you said to somebody what are the signs that you should go see a doctor for something like physical ailment?

迹象就是感觉哪里不对劲。

Well, the sign is something doesn't feel right.

是的。

Yeah.

因为感觉不对劲。

Because something feels off.

你的身体感觉不对劲。

Something feels off in your body.

你会说，我要去检查一下。

You say, I'm gonna go get this checked out.

所以，这就是问题所在。

So, questions that.

但人们会问，当情绪上感觉不对劲时，你该怎么办？

But people say, what do you do when something feels off emotionally?

嗯，你就去寻求帮助。

Well, you go and you get help for it.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为人们觉得只有当情况变得非常、非常、非常糟糕时才需要采取行动。

But I think that there's some reason that people think that it has to be really really really bad.

你知道，你得情绪上快崩溃了才会去见心理咨询师。

You know, you have to be like emotionally dying before you go see a therapist.

但人们并不会这样想。

Whereas people don't think that.

这就像你胳膊断了，没人会说：‘我没得癌症，所以还不够严重。’

It's kind of like if you broke your arm, nobody's saying like, oh but I don't have cancer so it's not bad enough.

我不去医生那里打石膏。

I'm not going to go to the doctor and get a cast.

但我们对待情绪健康却恰恰如此。

But that's what we do with our emotional health.

我们会说：‘嗯，我有点焦虑，或者感到难过，或者根本没法正常运作好。’

We say, Well, yeah, I'm anxious or I'm feeling sad or I can't really function well.

我在人际关系中遇到了困难。

I'm having trouble relationships.

但和人们拿它去比较的事情相比，这并没有那么糟糕。

But it's not that bad compared to whatever people compare it to.

所以我不会为此寻求帮助。

So, I'm not going to get help for this.

然后人们来到我的办公室时，正处于情绪上的心脏病发作级别。

And then people come to my office when they're having the equivalent of an emotional heart attack.

他们真的陷入了严重的危机。

Like they are really really in crisis.

在那时，他们已经无谓地承受了很长时间的痛苦，而且因为错过了早期干预的时机，治疗起来也更困难。

And at that point they've suffered unnecessarily for a long time and it's harder to treat because you could have come when it was just beginning.

对吧？

Right?

所以，很多人会说，寻求帮助说明我软弱。

And so, think that you know a lot of people say like well you know it's a sign of weakness that I have to go get help for this.

但没人会说，打石膏是手臂软弱的表现。

Nobody says it's a sign of weakness to go get a cast for your arm.

所以我常说，这其实是坚强的表现，因为当你决定寻求帮助时，你是在说：我重视自己。

And so I say it's a sign of strength because what happens is when you say, I wanna go get help for this, you're saying, value myself.

我也重视我身边人的生命，因为我们的心理健康会影响周围每一个人的情绪健康。

And I value the lives of the people around me too because our emotional health affects the emotional health of everybody around us.

我喜欢这个例子，比如你手臂受伤需要打石膏，你会说‘我没得癌症’，但有时候我们对心理问题也是这样，一直拖延、推迟，就像你说的，人们走进来时已经出现了严重的恐慌发作或真正的求助信号，因为我们让问题积累得太久。那么，对于那些生活中总有人告诉他们‘心理健康不是真的’的人呢？我肯定你也会遇到这种情况，洛里，或者有人只是说‘这都是你脑子里想出来的，别担心，你会好起来的’，或者‘哦，对，确实有这种人，他们对心理治疗不是持怀疑态度，而是根本不懂心理健康是真实存在的。很多人觉得‘我不需要心理健康，我这一辈子都挺好的’，你知道的，我挺好的。你是怎么帮助那些生活中有这样的人的人的呢？

I love that example of like if you injured your arm and you need a cast you can go oh well I don't have cancer and I think sometimes with our mind we kind of keep pushing it like postponing it and delaying it and then like you said people are walking in with a real like panic attack or a genuine plea because we've just let it build so much what about someone who has someone in their life who's always told them that mental health's not real or some I'm sure you face that lori or you know who someone's just like oh it's all in your mind don't worry about it like you'll be fine or you know oh yeah that you know there's there's a bit of that not skepticism about therapy but I mean like people don't really I feel like a lot of people don't understand that mental health is real people are like oh I don't need mental health I've been fine my whole life like you know I'm okay how have you helped people deal with people who have that in their life

你知道吗，这其实很有趣。

You know, it's really interesting.

我认为人们会有这种误解，是因为大家很少谈论去接受心理治疗。

I think that people have that misconception because people aren't talking about going to therapy.

所以，如果你看看那些看起来最正常的人，对吧？

So if you see the people who seem the most functional, right?

那些最成功的人，那些在世界上以有意义的方式做事、感觉内心完整的人，对吧？

So the people who are the most successful, the people who are really doing things in the world and in meaningful ways and they feel whole, right?

在我为《也许你该找个人聊聊》这本书做巡回宣传时，每次上台前，采访我的人——那些都是名人，是各个领域都非常成功的人。

Everywhere I went on book tour for maybe you should talk to someone before I went on stage, the person who was interviewing me and these were like celebrities and you know people who were extremely successful in all realms of the world.

他们会说，你知道吗，我只是想告诉你我正在接受心理治疗。

They would say, you know what, I just wanna let you know that I'm in therapy.

我可能会也可能不会在我们的谈话中提到这件事。

I may or may not talk about it during our conversation.

而他们不可避免地都提到了。

And inevitably they did.

但是，然后每个人都会惊讶地说，那个人真的在接受心理治疗吗？

But, and everybody was like, really that person's in therapy?

我认为这会改变人们关于这是否真实的看法。

And I think that changes the mindset about whether this is real or not.

关于它是否真的能有所帮助。

Whether it can really help or not.

所以有这一点。

So there's that.

而且我也认为让人们理解抑郁症是真实存在的很重要。

And then I also think that it's important that people understand that depression is real.

焦虑是真实的。

Anxiety is real.

悲伤和失去是真实的。

Grief and loss are real.

它们不是那种你一按开关就能解决的事情，就像糖尿病患者需要胰岛素一样。

They aren't just like you can just flip the switch and something happens just like if you have diabetes, you need insulin.

所以这些确实是真实存在的现象。

So these are these are real phenomena.

对于那些不理解的人来说，这关乎教育问题。

And I I think that for people who don't understand, it's a matter of education.

只需给他们看一篇相关的文章。

It's just show them an article about it.

发个链接给他们就行了。

Just send them a link to something.

对吧？

Right?

发给他们一些展示他人经历的内容。

Send them something that that shows other people's experiences.

而且说到底，没有人能替你过你的生活。

And and I would say ultimately at the end of the day, nobody gets to live your life for you.

所以如果你正在挣扎，就去寻求帮助。

So if you are struggling, go get help.

别人怎么想并不重要，因为他们并没有过你的生活。

It doesn't matter what other people think because they aren't living your life.

你为什么要因为别人对你的经历是否达到他们所谓的标准而受苦呢？

Why do you want to suffer based on what somebody else says about whether what you're experiencing meets some kind of threshold for them?

你内心深处知道你需要帮助。

You know in your place of knowing that you need help.

去寻求帮助吧。

Go get help.

请不要拖延。

Please don't wait.

你该如何真正找到适合自己的治疗师呢？

How do you actually go about finding the right therapist for you?

affordability 是一个问题，但另一个问题是找到对的人，因为这又是另一种关系，对吧？

Affordability is one thing but the other thing is just finding the right person because again that's another relationship, right?

这确实是一种关系，但不像去看牙医那样，对吧？

It is a relationship and it's not like going to the dentist, right?

这是一种你走进来，展现真实自我的关系，你卸下伪装，做所有我认为非常困难的事情——保持真实、展现脆弱，同时承担责任。

It's you know this is a relationship where you're coming in, you are showing the truth of who you are, you are taking off the mask, you are doing all of the things that I think are very hard to do, which is to be authentic, be vulnerable, and also be accountable.

因为你将被要求真正地审视自己，而且你会看到许多你以为自己没有的选择，但你必须去行动。

Because you're going to be asked to really look at yourself and you're going to be shown a lot of choices that you think you don't have, but you're going to have to act on them.

所以我认为这种关系以及其中的信任至关重要。

And so I think the relationship and the trust in that relationship is so important.

所以我总是告诉人们，在找治疗师时，首先去问问别人。

So what I always say to people about finding a therapist is that first of all, ask somebody.

你总是可以向别人求助。

You can always ask someone.

不要问那些你自己都觉得生活一团糟的人。

Don't ask the person who you don't feel like they have their life together.

那个总是说'是的，我去接受治疗了'，但根本一点都没改变的人。

The person who's always like, Yeah, I go to therapy and basically they haven't changed at all.

看看那个人，你会说：哇，这个人真的改变了很多。

Look at the person and you say, Wow, that person has really changed.

哇，我看到这个人真的发生了转变。

Wow, I've seen that person really shift.

我看到这个人有了明显的蜕变。

I've seen some transformation in this person.

你会对那个人说：你最近怎么了？

Saying that person, What's going on with you?

你有在看心理医生吗？

Do you have a therapist by any chance?

对吧？

Right?

那个有治疗师的人，如果他们有治疗师，会主动告诉你的。

That's the person who's going to if they have a therapist, will share it with you.

如果他们不想告诉你他们的治疗师是谁，他们的治疗师通常能给你一个不错的推荐。

If they don't want to share their therapist with you, their therapist can often give you a good referral.

所以，我的很多患者都会对我说，我的朋友想接受心理治疗。

So, a lot of times my patients will say to me, my friend wants to go to therapy.

我该推荐谁给他们？

Who can I refer them to?

然后我会给他们一个不错的推荐。

And I will give them a good referral.

因此，口碑传播在这方面非常有效。

So word-of-mouth is great in that way.

你可以上Psychology Today网站查找治疗师，了解他们的不同信息。

You can go on Psychology Today online and look up therapists and you can see different things about them.

但最终请记住这一点。

But ultimately remember this.

当你去参加第一次会面时，比如你找到了一个人，他们在网上看起来不错，或者有人给你推荐了。

That when you go in for a first session, so you say you find someone, they look good online or somebody gave you a recommendation.

当你去的时候，这是一次咨询。

When you go in, it's a consultation.

你在那里要感受一下自己的状态。

And you're there to see how do I feel?

和自己内心做个检查。

Check-in with yourself.

和这个人交谈时，你感觉如何？

How do I feel talking to this person?

你觉得自己被理解了吗？

Do I feel understood?

你觉得这个人问的问题是恰当的吗？

Do I feel like this person is asking the right questions?

你在这个环境中感到舒适吗？

Do I feel comfortable in this space?

这是一种感觉。

It's a vibe.

如果你感觉不错，就去参加第二次咨询。

And if you do feel good, go back for a second session.

你需要经历几次咨询，才能真正感受到和这个人相处的感觉。

And it'll take you a few sessions to really get a sense of how do I feel with this person.

到了那时，你就会知道这个人是否合适。

And at that point you'll know whether it's the right person.

如果不合适，我的建议是：

And if it's not, here's my suggestion.

不要直接消失不理对方。

Don't ghost the person.

告诉对方：嘿，不知什么原因，我不太确定。

Say to the person, Hey, for whatever reason, I'm not sure.

我只是觉得可能这个人不太适合我。

I'm just not feeling like maybe this is the right thing.

而且你会和这个人讨论这些，我们非常欢迎这样的对话。

And you talk about it with the person and we welcome those conversations.

治疗室的特别之处在于，我认为这是唯一一个你可以畅所欲言且感到安全的地方。

And what's great about the therapy room is we are it's the one place I think where you can talk about literally anything and it is safe.

治疗师可能会说：嘿，你为什么不试试这位同事呢？或者我给你一些建议，或者我注意到一些情况。

And the therapist will probably say, hey why don't you try this colleague or here's a suggestion for you or here's what I noticed.

这种反馈对你非常有帮助，它教会你在现实世界中如何进行艰难的对话。

And that feedback will be so good for you and it teaches you out in the world how do you have a hard conversation.

这太棒了。

That's brilliant.

这真是非常好的建议。

That's such great advice.

而且这真的必须是个人化的。

And it really has to be personal.

你必须和那个人有真正的连接。

It really has to be someone that you connect with.

回到前面几个问题，我也想说，就像劳里提到的，这让我想到，听到人们讲述他们的心理健康历程，能够帮助那些原本持怀疑态度的人。在我们的播客中，我们刻意这样做，我相信劳里也有许多类似的故事可以分享。甚至在她的书中，她也举了我们节目嘉宾的例子——我们在《有目的》这个播客中，已经有很多人分享过他们的心理健康经历。

Going back a few questions, I was also going to say to everyone like what Laurie said and it just triggered in my mind is you know hearing people talk about their mental health journey helps people that may be skeptical and on purpose on our podcast and and I'm sure Laurie's got several stories as well she shares but even in a book where she gives examples of people we've had so many people on On Purpose, the podcast talk about their mental health journeys.

当人们把这些内容分享给朋友时，他们会惊讶地说：‘天啊，我从来没想过这位名人、这位音乐人或这个人也经历过这些。’

When people share that to their friend and send it, they're like, oh my gosh, I never realized this celebrity or this musician or this person has had this.

这真是一个非常好的方式。

That's a really great way.

另外，从你们的问题中，我注意到一个我想问劳里的点：她去哪儿了？

And one of the other things that I'm seeing pop out from your guys questions that I want to ask Laurie here, where's it gone?

找到了。

There we go.

所以，这真是个很好的观点。

So this was really a good point.

阿米拉说，有些人把接受心理咨询与人生失败联系在一起。

Amira goes, people sometimes associate having therapy with failing at life.

我完全同意。我们常常把这看作是一种弱点，但实际上它是一种很好的自我成长训练。我想在这里澄清一下：拥有心理咨询师，并不意味着你的人生失败了，对吧？

I completely agree like we see it as a weakness when actually it's actually good training and I just want to address that for a second like if you have a therapist that does not mean you are failing at life, right?

当你对某人接受治疗感到惊讶时，这意味着你只认为在生活出现严重问题时才需要接受治疗。

And when you're surprised that someone's in therapy it means you only think you take therapy if things are going really wrong.

但正如我们之前所讨论的，情况并非如此。

That's not the case as we've been addressing.

治疗是为了让你积极维护自己的心理健康，无论你的治疗方式是什么——无论是与治疗师面谈、在线治疗，还是其他任何你能找到的方式——接受治疗都不是软弱或失败的表现。

Therapy is for you to stay proactive about your mental well-being whatever your therapy practice is whether it's with a therapist or you're doing online therapy or whatever way in which you are able to find it for yourself being in therapy is not a weakness or a failure.

我认为看待治疗的一种方式是，它就像从一个不在你生活中的人那里获得关于你生活的专业第二意见。

One way to look at it I think is therapy is like getting a really good second opinion on your life from someone who isn't in your life.

在其他所有领域，我们都会寻求第二意见。

In every other realm, we will get a second opinion.

我们会说：嘿，我想了解一下这个，或者你对这个怎么看？

We will say, Oh, hey, I want to know about this or what do you think about this?

向那些我们尊重的人寻求意见。

From people that we respect.

所以，我认为治疗的意义在于，我们每个人都有盲点。

And so, I think the thing about therapy is that we all have blind spots.

你可以和朋友谈论这些问题，但通常朋友因为太亲近你，反而看不到你的盲点。

And you can talk to your friends about things, but often your friends have blind spots about you because they're so close to you.

当你去找治疗师时，你会遇到一个能以他人无法做到的方式理解你的人。

And when you go to a therapist, you have someone who can see you in a way that maybe other people can't.

他们会以富有同情心的方式为你照镜子，同时帮助你看到那些你未曾察觉的东西。

They will hold up a mirror to you in a compassionate way, but also in a way that's going to help you see something that you haven't seen.

很多时候，我们都被困在这些模式里。

So, lot of times we're stuck in these patterns.

治疗师会指出：这个模式影响着你的个人生活、职业生活和内在世界。

And what a therapist will do is say, Here's this pattern that it affects your personal life, your professional life, your internal life.

对吧？

Right?

当你理解了这个模式，一切都会豁然开朗。

And when you understand that pattern, everything opens up.

所以，生活中表现最好的人，往往是那些曾经接受过治疗的人。

So that's why the people who are doing the best in life are people who often have been to therapy.

劳里，你能告诉我你认为伴侣什么时候应该一起接受治疗吗？因为这显然是你工作中非常重要的一部分。

Laurie, tell me when you think couples should go to therapy together because that's obviously been a huge part of your work.

我觉得我通常看到的情况是，当然，我是一名教练，所以我做的是辅导，这显然和治疗有很大不同。

And I feel like usually what I've seen when I obviously, I'm a coach, so I do coaching, which is obviously very different from therapy.

但当我辅导某人时，如果我建议他们去接受治疗，通常会发生的情况是，关系中的一方想去看治疗师，而另一方——你肯定见过这种情况无数次了。

But when I'm coaching someone, and if I'm recommending them to go to therapy, often what happens is like one person in the relationship wants to go to a therapist and the other, or you've seen this a million times.

那么，在这种情况下，你会怎么做呢？

So, what do you do in that situation?

伴侣什么时候是去接受治疗的合适时机？当一方想去看治疗师，而另一方不想时，你该如何

When is the right time for a couple to go to therapy and when you have one person wants to go to the therapist and the other person doesn't, how do

应对这种情况？

you manage that?

当人们想来接受治疗时，你说得对，常常是一方想来，而另一方不想来，原因往往是恐惧。

So, when people want to come to therapy and often you're right it's the case that maybe sometimes one person does and the other person is the reason the other person doesn't want to come is because of fear.

他们担心，如果我们进去开始谈论我们的关系，可能会发现里面有很多问题。

They're worried that if we go in and start talking about our relationship we're gonna find things wrong with it.