亚历克斯·霍诺尔德：在自由攀登台湾最高建筑前的独家访谈（本集将改变你对恐惧的关系）

所以你会想，哦，我应该好好想想，评估一下自己会不会有事？

And so then you're kind of like, oh, I should think about this and sort of evaluate like is, you know, am I gonna be okay?

我是不是该采取不同的行动？

Is it should I should I take different actions?

我是不是该以某种方式缓解这种情况？

Should I try to mitigate this in some way?

所以，我的意思是，这完全要看情况。

So I don't I mean, know, it totally depends.

但作为攀岩者，你一直在权衡这些事，比如，这种恐惧有根据吗？

But that's the thing as a climber is you're constantly balancing those kinds of things like, is this fear well founded?

我是不是该对此采取某种行动？

Should I act upon it in some way?

我是不是该做点什么？

Should I do something?

我是不是不该做？

Should I not?

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

所以你对恐惧的态度似乎非常中立，就像在和它对话一样，这就像每天都会发生的事。

And so so your relationship with fear seems just very neutral in the sense of you having a conversation with it, it's like every other day.

是的，有时候，我的意思是，恐惧是一种身体感觉，和其他很多感觉一样。

Yeah, well I sometimes I mean fear is a sensation in your body, same as lots of other things.

我以前用过这个比喻，但我觉得它就像饥饿。

And so I've used this analogy before, but I'm kind of like, it's like hunger.

你知道，当你感到饥饿时，你并不会想，

You know, it's like when you experience hunger, you're not like,

天啊，我饿了，得马上吃点东西。

oh my god, I'm hungry, need

现在就想要个三明治。

a sandwich right now.

你只是觉得，好吧，我应该在某个时候吃点东西。

You're just kind of like, okay, I should eat at some point.

我觉得，因为人们经历恐惧的频率较低，所以感觉更令人不知所措。

And I feel like I think because people experience fear much less frequently, it feels more overwhelming.

但你知道，如果你像感受饥饿那样频繁地经历恐惧，那你就会觉得，好吧，我稍后再处理它。

But, you know, if you experience fear with the same regularity that you experience hunger, then you're kind of like, okay, like, I'll deal with that in due time.

也就是说，在合适的时候，我会去应对它。

Like, when it makes sense, I'll manage that.

但从根本上说，感到恐惧只是感受到身体里的某些感觉而已。

But fundamentally, feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in your body or something.

其实，它并不比你身体感受到的其他任何感觉更重要或更不重要，除非它在告诉你即将死亡。

Like, it's not like doesn't matter more or less than any other thing that you feel in your body, really, unless it's telling you you're about to die.

是的。

Yeah.

那种情况下，你就应该注意了。

In which case you should pay attention.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

你有没有觉得，你刚才说的关于对恐惧接触得越频繁，恐惧对你的影响就越小，这个观点呢？

Do you do you feel that that what you just said about the more frequently you are exposed to fear, the less fear affects you.

这种观点能从身体感觉延伸到情感和人际关系的挑战上吗？

Does that translate from the physical sensation to when you're having emotional relational challenges as well?

可能比我妻子希望的要少一些，你知道的。

Probably less so than my wife wishes, you know.

你明白我的意思，对吧？

You know what mean, right?

我认为确实有一点，因为某种程度上，管理恐惧就是管理恐惧。

I think it does a little bit probably because you know, to some extent managing fear is managing fear.

对。

Yes.

但这确实是你练习的东西。

But it is a little bit of what you practice.

比如，我在应对身体上的恐惧和危险方面真的很在行，那种我感觉自己身处危险中的情况。

Like, think I'm really good at dealing with like physical fear, like physical risk and things where I'm like, I feel like I'm in danger.

但像公开演讲这种事，我以前可是害怕得要命。

Less I mean, public speaking, I was horrified of for a long time.

不过经过大量练习，我现在已经自在多了。

But again, with tons of practice, I've gotten much more comfortable.

这没什么大不了的。

It's fine.

至于感情方面的老问题，我觉得……嗯，我妻子会说，这方面还有很长的路要走。

And then like relationship old stuff, I'm sort of like, well, that's, I mean, my wife would say there's still a long ways to go.

是的，跟我聊聊你所做的事情带来的恐惧，和我们大多数人觉得可怕的那种恐惧之间的区别吧。

Yeah, talk to me about the difference between like the fear of what you do, which most of us would see as that is scary Mhmm.

还有公开演讲，这可是公认的最令人恐惧的事情之一。

And then public speaking, which is known as one of the scariest things

对。

to Yeah.

我的意思是

I mean

在地球上。

on planet Earth.

比如，

Like,

聊聊

talk to

我关于

me about the difference in

不。

No.

我觉得这其实很相似。

I think it's really similar.

我的意思是，我觉得大多数人，嗯，我确实比害怕攀岩更害怕公开演讲。

I mean, I think most people are I mean, I was definitely more afraid of public speaking than than climbing.

但很明显，我喜欢攀岩。

But obviously, you know, I love climbing.

我一辈子都在做这件事。

I spent my whole life doing it.

是的。

Yeah.

但公开演讲真的让人恐惧。

But public speaking is is horrifying.

不过话说回来，既然我已经有了很多这方面的经验，我会说它并没有那么可怕。

Though that said, now that I've had a lot of practice with it, I would say that it's not that scary.

而攀岩始终带有一丝危险，因为从根本上说，你可能会丧命。

Whereas climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally you could die.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，公开演讲时感觉好像会死，但其实你只是……嗯，没事的。

You know, with public speaking, it like feels like you might die, but you're just, you know, it's fine.

是的。

Yeah.

你可以随时出去，出点洋相，但其实没什么大不了的。

Like you can always go out and like make a fool of yourself and it doesn't really matter.

这正是我想说的。

Well, that's that's what I'm saying.

对吧？

Right?

我们之所以害怕做那些没有代价的事情，是因为我们几乎把它想象成有更高的风险。

Like the reason why we get scared of doing things that where there isn't a cost is because we almost make it out like there is a higher stake to it.

是的，但我觉得只要稍微练习一下，你就会意识到其实并没有那么高的风险。

Yeah, but I think that with a little bit of practice you realize that there just isn't that high of a stake.

根本没有风险。

There's no stakes.

比如，当你还没做过的时候，你会想：要是他们笑话我怎么办？

Like, you know, when you haven't done it before, you're like, what if they laugh at you?

然后你就想，如果他们真的笑了呢？

And then you're like, what if they do?

谁在乎呢？

Like, who cares?

你知道吗，结果发现完全没问题。

You know, like, turns out it's totally fine.

这根本不重要。

It doesn't matter.

是的。

Yeah.

但是一些身体上的恐惧，你会想，嘿，如果摔下去死了，那确实很重要，或者

You know, but with with some of the physical fear stuff, you're kind of like, well, mean, it does matter if you fall to death or

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以这些，你知道的，总会带点紧张感。

So those, you know, that will always have some edge to it.

是的。

Yeah.

那么当你有这样的想法时，你该如何在当下处理呢？

And so how do you process that in the moment when those when that's what you're thinking?

我的意思是，视情况而定。

I mean, depends.

有些情况，你知道的，首先深呼吸，让自己冷静下来，试着应对。

Some you know, first take some deep breaths, compose yourself, sort of like try to deal.

我的意思是，攀岩从来没有什么时间压力，所以你基本上可以站在那里不动。

I mean, the thing with climbing is that there's never any time pressure to it, so you can just stand there basically.

哇。

Wow.

对。

Yeah.

即使你紧紧贴在岩石上，保持静态姿势通常也没那么难。

Even if you're clinging to the rock, like maintaining a static position is typically not like that hard.

所以你可以只是抓稳，深呼吸，慢慢来，让自己平静下来。

So you can just hold on, take some deep breaths, take your time, get composed.

然后试着判断，有时候你会毫无理由地感到非常害怕。

And then try to decide whether or not you know, it's like sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason.

而其他时候你可能会想，哦，原来我误判了岩石的质量，这比我想的危险得多，也许我该放弃。

And then other times you're kind of like, oh, it turns out that I'd, you know, misjudged the rock quality and this is much more dangerous than I thought it was and like maybe I should bail.

所以，我确实放弃过很多次，比如爬到一半时觉得这不适合我，就直接爬下来了。

And so I mean, I've bailed off all kinds of things where you climb partway up something and you're like, this is not for me and you just climb back down.

听到这些挺有意思的。

That's interesting to hear.

所以你清楚自己的极限，也知道自己的边界，这并不是说——

So you're with knowing your edge and knowing your limit and there's not mean,

自由独攀的关键是，你必须始终严格保持在自己的能力范围内。

the thing with free soloing is that you always have to stay well within your limits.

你知道，当你系着绳子攀爬时，你总是在试图突破自己的极限，以便学习和成长。

You know, it's like because like when you're climbing with a rope, you're always trying push yourself, like, sort of beyond your limits so that you can learn and grow and everything.

但如果你是自由 solo 攀登，你就必须始终待在自己的舒适区内，因为显然你不能掉下来。

But if you're free soloing, you stay well within your comfort zone because obviously you just can't fall off.

接下来的这次攀登就是这样。

And that's what this next climb is.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

接下来的这次攀登是自由 solo，但应该会，我的意思是，挺有意思的。

This next climb is free soloing, but it should be I mean, it's interesting.

它应该完全在我的体能舒适区内。

It should be well within my physical comfort zone.

你知道，我应该能从体能上完成它。

Like, you know, I should be able to physically climb it.

但对我来说，令人兴奋的是，我从未爬过这样的建筑，所以即使我对自己的体力很有信心，我仍然会觉得：我在做一件全新的事，这总是有点令人兴奋。

But the sort of exciting thing for me is that I've just never climbed a building like And that so so I think even though I'm very confident in my physical ability to do it, I'm still kind of like, well I'm doing a new thing and so that's always a little bit exciting.

是的，没错，我很喜欢这一点。

Yes, yeah, I love that.

所以我觉得，我们现在讨论恐惧的方式，以及你对它的反思，让我意识到，每当我做一件新事情时，都会感到不适或恐惧。

So I feel like what I really appreciate with how we're talking about fear right now and through your reflection on it is that there's a sense of recognizing that anytime I do something new, I'll feel a sense of discomfort or fear.

而这是一件好事。

And that's a good thing.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这意味着我在乎，我在尝试新事物。

Because that means I'm worried and I'm trying something new.

关键是，你是在体验恐惧吗？

Well, that's the whole thing is like, you experiencing fear?

你感受到的是紧张还是兴奋？因为这些感觉在身体上其实非常相似。

Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement or, because a lot of those things are the same sensation in your body, really.

你会想，哦，我有点紧张，心里七上八下，浑身发麻，特别敏感。

You're like, oh, I'm like a little nervous or I'm feeling like butterflies and I feel tingling and I'm on edge and I feel heightened.

然后你会问自己，我是害怕了，还是兴奋了？

And you're like, am I afraid or am I excited?

说不准。

Like, don't know.

我的意思是，要准确区分这些感受其实挺难的。

I mean, it's hard to exactly pinpoint some of those kinds of things.

所以我觉得，你没必要非得细究说我害怕了。

And so so I think it's you just don't want to put too fine a point on like, I'm scared.

因为你其实只是特别激动。

Because you're like, oh, you're just psyched.

是的。

Yeah.

你懂的？

You know?

你知道吗，当我到达楼底时，出人意料的是，离开地面的第一步往往是攀爬中最难的动作。

Like, know that when I get to the bottom of the building, like, actually, surprisingly, the first move off the ground is one of the harder moves on the climb.

你得跳起来抓住某个点，然后开始攀爬，实际上，在建筑上迈出第一步往往是 hardest 的一步。

And you kind of have to, like, jump up and catch this thing and, like, start climbing and, like, basically taking the first step on a building is, like, one of the hardest.

我肯定我会有点紧张、身体紧绷，毕竟有摄像机、人群和整个场面，我会想，嗯，这确实有点不一样。

And I'm sure I'm gonna be a little nervous and a little tight and just kind of like, oh, this is, you know, with cameras and people and a whole spectacle, I'd be like, this Yeah.

我只是会想，嗯，我有点紧张。

It's just gonna be like, you know, I'm nervous.

但这是否意味着我害怕呢？

But does that mean I'm scared?

我想，我们走着瞧吧。

I'm like, I mean, we'll see.

我不觉得我是害怕，但我肯定会觉得很刺激。

I don't think so, but I think it'll be exciting for sure.

是的，是的，是的，这说得通。

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

不，我的意思是，我并没有做过什么我觉得特别难的事情，但任何我第一次做的事情

No, I mean, not that I've done anything that I think is that hard, but anything I've ever done for the first time

是的，很多时候都会很害怕。

Yeah, it's scary a lot.

即使我已经做了很久，仍然会让人紧张。

Even if I've done it for a long time, it's still nerve wracking.

正如我所说，我并不是在比较什么，但对我而言，如果我要进行一次比以往都更久的冥想

Like I said, not comparing anything at all but yes, for me, if I was going into a longer meditation than I've ever done before

是的，你会觉得，这是个新的阶段。

Yeah, you'd be like, this is a new step.

没错，我依然会紧张，而且我会感到

Absolutely, I'm still nervous and I get

你最长的一次冥想是多久？

What what is the longest meditation you've done?

什么样的冥想才算长时间的呢？

What's considered like a long meditation?

所以我们每天至少会进行四到八个小时的冥想

So we would do a minimum of four to eight hours a day

是一段一段地进行吗？

In blocks or something?

是整块整块地进行，比如你可以连续做四个小时，或者八个小时。

In in full chunks, like you could do four together or eight together.

天哪。

Dude.

是的，有时候确实如此。

Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

但最长的一次

But the longest one

八个小时怎么样？

How's eight hours?

我最长的一次冥想大概是接近二十四小时。

The longest one I've ever done is probably just under twenty four hours.

是的，有史以来最长的一次。

Yeah, the longest ever.

天哪。

Dude.

对。

Yeah.

哇。

Wow.

你深入到什么程度了？

How deep did you go?

那是其中之一，也是最棒的之一，因为我们通过长时间冥想学到的并不是展示你能冥想多久，而是学会脱离身体，因为你必须超越身体才能真正活在当下，因为你一开始会——我的意思是，这要难得多，但你会开始感到酸痛或疼痛，开始发痒，开始精神涣散，当

It was one of the, it was one of the best most because what we learned through length of meditation was not to show how long you can meditate, it was the ability to have to disconnect from the body because you have to go beyond the body to be that present in the moment because you'll start, and I mean, is much harder, but like you'd start feeling an ache or a pain, you start itching, you start mentally getting lost When

你的背

your back

疼的时候，你的

hurts and your

完全对，屁股

Totally, butt

所以你必须超越身体和思维。

so you've got to go beyond the body and the mind.

在二十四小时里，你会饿，得去上厕所。

When in twenty four hours you get hungry, you have to go to the bathroom.

没错。

Exactly.

我的意思是，你觉得怎么样

I mean, how do you like

我知道你禁食是为了让这更容易些，但确实如此。

I know you're fasting to make it easier but yeah.

但禁食会让它更容易吗？

But does that make it easier?

我的意思是，禁食确实会让它更容易些，但仅仅禁食二十四小时本身就已经是个挑战了。

I mean, makes it easier to, because but just fasting for twenty four hours is its own challenge.

是的，我们经常这么做，所以这并不像你刚才说的那样

Yeah, we would do it often enough so it wasn't, again, it's what you just said about

这是你练习的结果。

It's what you practice.

当你在练习时，我说出这些话听起来就不会那么疯狂了，因为我知道有些僧人曾经连续三天、七天，甚至更久。

When you're practicing it, it doesn't sound that crazy for me to say out loud because I know other monks who've done it for three days and seven days and you know, for longer than far longer.

人们能连续冥想七天吗？

Can people meditate for seven days?

当然可以。

Oh absolutely.

真的吗？

For really?

有些人，说实话，当我想到那些我有幸遇到的了不起的人所做到的事情时，我觉得自己完全是个新手。

They're like, there's some people that I mean, yeah, I'm like a complete beginner when it comes to, you know, the realm of real, you know, work that some of these incredible people that I got to meet have done.

老兄，但连续坐七天确实很长啊。

Dude, but seven days is a long time to sit.

是的，坐这么久确实很长。

Yeah, it's a long time to sit.

也许不太好。

Maybe not good.

感觉比你实际需要的还要久。

It feels like more than you might need.

对，没错。

Yeah, yeah exactly.

这总是个很有趣的问题，我记得刚开始尝试冷水浴的时候，我总在想，冷水浴该泡多长时间才合适？

Well, it's always like that interesting thing where I remember when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning, I'd always be like, what's the right amount of time to be in a cold plunge?

那时候我是一点经验都没有。

And when I was Zero.

我本来想问你，你会不会一直泡下去。

I was gonna ask you how long you'd be to do it forever.

不，不，我不想做这种事。

No, no, I don't wanna do that kind of thing.

你不吗？

You don't?

但这是因为我觉得这并不重要。

But it's because I'm kinda like, I don't think it matters.

我觉得这并不会让我变得更好，所以是的。

Like, I don't think it makes me a better so Yeah.

你知道，如果我确信这能改变我的生活，那我会说，是的，我肯定会这么做。

You know, if I was convinced that this would, like, change my life, then I'm like, yeah, I'm sure you do that.

你知道，心态什么的并不重要。

You know, mind don't matter or whatever.

但有很多类似的事情。

But there are lot of things like that.

冥想也是同样的情况，如果我认为这是通往成功的道路，能帮助我攀爬得更高，那我会说，是的，我会去做。

Same with meditation where I'm like, if I thought this was the path and, like, that would help me send, know, like climb harder and I'm like, yeah, I would do that.

但如果不这么认为，那我就说，不，我直接洗个热水澡。

But if I don't think so, then I'm like, no, I take a hot shower.

我太喜欢了，我太喜欢了。

I love that, I love that.

但不是，我之前说的是，当我刚开始做这件事时，有一种自我认同的数字，因为它让你感觉更好，但还有一种真正对健康有益的数字。

But no, it's what I was saying was that when I first started to do it, it was there's the ego number because it makes you feel better but then there's the number that's actually good for your health.

所以我认为大多数健康专家会说，三到七分钟非常棒。

So I think most health experts would say three to seven minutes in there is amazing.

但人们会说，他们待了十五分钟，但其实差不多就像，之后就没那么有效了。

But then people will be like, was in there for fifteen minutes but it's almost like it doesn't, it's not that active after

因为七

the because seven

你的身体已经调节好了，现在它不再是一种挑战或刺激了。

your body's regulated and now it's not a challenge or a shock anymore.

二十分钟后你就死了，所以

And after twenty you're dead so

没错，不是这样的。

you're not Exactly, it's not.

并不是

It's not

发生了。

happened.

所以，有没有过什么你特别想爬，但觉得太危险了，干脆连试都不试的？

So has there ever been anything you're like, I really want to climb that but actually it's too risky and I wouldn't even bother.

就像你说的，你放弃了。

Like you said you bail

干得好，好吧。

Well done, okay.

所以，回到建筑这个话题，当有人提出把摩天大楼作为活体攀爬目标的想法时——大概12年前我们第一次勘察时，我第一个看的就是哈利法塔。

So actually, so in the context of the building, so when the idea of common skyscraper for a live thing came up, you know, whatever 12 ago or something when we first scouted, the first thing I scouted was the Burj Khalifa.

它是当时世界上最高的建筑，而且理论上是可以爬上去的。

It was just the tallest building in world of And it's possible you can climb it.

我的意思是，我确实能做出那些动作，但那基本上是极限边缘了。

I I mean, I was able to do the moves on it, but it's it's cutting edge, basically.

这非常非常难。

It's like very, very hard.

那你爬到了多高？

And How high did you get?

我可以带着绳子爬这栋楼，就像户外攀爬那样，但这真的很难。

I could climb the building with a rope, you know, like climbing outside, but it's it's just very hard.

而且它难在一些错误的方向上。

And also it's hard in the wrong ways.

它非常滑，而且极其挑剔。

It's like very slippery and very, very finicky.

你可以想象自己随时可能滑落。

Like, you could imagine slipping off at any moment.

所以基本上，它就像是自由独攀中的酋长岩一样。

So basically, was kind of like it it was kind of like the El Cap of free soloing or something.

我当时就想，好吧。

I was like, sure.

如果我全身心投入这件事，我会搬到迪拜，就住在那栋楼里。

If I devoted myself to this, I, like, moved to Dubai and just, like, lived on this building.

是的，这是可能的。

It's like, yeah, it's possible.

你知道，只要付出足够的决心和努力，从物理上讲是能做到的。

You know, like, it can physically be done with the proper commitment and everything.

但为了拍电视节目，我觉得不行，这太疯狂了。

But for a TV program, and I was like, no, this is crazy.

我甚至开始考虑使用类似诺曼底登陆那种老式军用降落伞。

Like, I'd actually started thinking about using like a like a d day style parachute, you know, like old school military parachutes.

现代降落伞像机翼一样有方向性。

Like a modern parachute is like a wing has a direction to it.

所以对于大楼这样的目标来说，它其实没那么有用，因为你必须能干净地离开大楼，转向并朝正确的方向飞行。

So it's actually not that helpful for something like a building because you'd have to be able to get a clean exit away from the building and turn away from it and face the correct direction.

因为如果你打开降落伞时撞上了大楼，你就会直接撞碎、坍塌、死亡。

Because if you're if you deployed your parachute and you went into the building, you just crumble and collapse and die.

所以不管怎样，那种降落伞，就像老式的，你想象中乔会用的那种，就是直直往下掉。

So anyway, but so like a drop parachute, just like an old school, like what you imagine, like, Joe using, that just goes straight down.

当我攀爬布尔格大厦时，我心想，也许我可以使用那种东西，因为如果你不小心滑倒了，至少你可以直接从大楼外立面直坠而下。

When I was playing on the Burge, I was kind of like, well, maybe I'd use something like that because then if, you know, you did slip, at least you could just basically plummet straight down the face of the building.

这样的话，也许还能勉强活命。

Like, it might kind of be okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你知道，你可能在底部摔断脚踝，但至少不会死。

You know, you maybe break your ankle at the bottom, but you're not gonna die.

所以我开始考虑这类想法。

And so, you know, I started considering ideas like that.

我觉得这一切都太疯狂了。

Was like, this is all crazy.

这太多了。

This is too much.

这简直太极端了。

Like, this is too extreme, basically.

所以，举个例子，像这种攀爬，我觉得是有可能的。

And so, I mean, that's an example of a climb where I'm like, yeah, it's possible.

有人能做到，但这远远超出了我认为合理的范围。

Like, somebody could do it, but it's just way outside what I think is reasonable.

是的。

Yeah.

但当我去勘察台北101大楼时，我突然觉得，它具备了标志性建筑的所有特征。

But then when I went and scouted Taipei 101, I was kind of like, oh, it has all the same features of a striking building.

它是整个景观中最大的建筑。

That's like the biggest thing in the whole landscape.

太惊人了。

It's amazing.

但这种攀爬方式安全得多。

But the style of climbing is way more secure.

你抓握的东西不那么滑，而且它们的形状更合理，你抓得更稳。

Like the things that you're grabbing are way less slippery and they the shape of them works better, like you just hold on better.

我当时就想，哦，这正是我想要的挑战。

I was just like, oh, this is the type of challenge I'm looking for.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我想知道，在这之后，他们会不会开始专门建造一些让你攀爬的建筑。

I wonder whether now after this, they're gonna start building buildings for you to climb.

接下来就会这样了。

That's what's gonna happen.

我认为建筑师甚至根本不会想到人类能抓住建筑物外侧的什么东西。

I don't I don't think architects even I don't even think it crosses their mind like what humans can hold on the outside.

因为这很有趣。

Because it's interesting.

我的意思是，有些大楼完全不可能攀爬，因为它们全是光滑的金属和玻璃。

I mean, some buildings are just completely impossible because they're just smooth metal and glass.

而另一些大楼则像梯子一样。

And then other buildings are like a ladder, you know.

它简直就像一个儿童攀爬架，太简单了。

It's almost like a jungle gym where it's like too easy.

这有点太 trivial 了。

It's kind of trivial.

任何人都能走上去完成，只要他们想这么做。

Like, anybody could walk up and do it if they wanted to.

是的。

Yes.

比如，纽约市的《纽约时报》大楼已经被少数普通人爬过。

Like, the New York Times building in in in New York City has been climbed by a handful of random people.

有个毫不相干的普通人就直接爬了大楼的一半，因为那 basically 就像脚手架一样。

And like some just random dude off the street just climbed like half the building because it's like a scaffolding, basically.

他们可能会想，这根本不是我想挑战的，因为我一辈子都在练习这项技能。

They're kinda like, well, that's not the challenge that I'm looking for because I spent my whole life practicing this thing.

我想做的是足够艰难、让我觉得有意义的事情。

I wanna do something that's hard enough that it feels meaningful to me.

你如何为攀爬做准备？

How do you prepare for a climb?

你会先去勘察，但之后你该怎么准备呢？

So you scout it out, but how do you how do you then prepare?

比如你现在正在为……做哪些准备？

Like how are you preparing right now for

是的。

Yeah.

我刚刚才开始为它进行所有的训练准备工作。

Actually just started all my training type stuff for it.

很有趣，我在九月份就去勘察了，因为他们必须提前足够久的时间去勘察，以便组建团队、规划拍摄等等。

It's funny, I did the scout in September because they have to do it far enough out to know, assemble the crew and plan the filming and all that kind of stuff.

而且当时我特别兴奋，因为你去勘察的时候，会想，天啊，这太酷了。

And so and it was funny because I was super psyched at the time where, like, you go and scout and you're like, god, this is so cool.

我太激动了。

I'm so excited.

我想下周就去完成它。

Like, I wanna do this next week.

你知道的吗？

You know?

我就想，我们马上开始吧。

I'm like, let's do this.

我已经准备好了。

I'm ready.

但后来我只能等上几个月，因为拍摄安排在明年一月。

But then I kinda had to just sit on it for, you know, a couple months just because it's scheduled for January.

所以现在距离拍摄还有两个半月，我才真正开始训练。

And so and so now sort of two and a half months out, I've started, like, properly training.

你不想太早开始高强度训练，否则会受伤、疲惫，你其实希望在最合适的时候达到最佳状态。

You just don't want to start, like, really training too far out because then you'll just get, like, injured and tired and, you know, it's like you kind of want to peak at the right time.

所以，是的，我现在就在做所有常规的训练：吃得很好、睡得很足、大量锻炼，逐步增加训练量，以便在关键时刻感觉状态绝佳。

And so, yeah, I'm just, I don't know, like all the all the ways you normally train, eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising a tremendous amount, and just kind of trying to ramp up my volume so that I feel incredibly fit when the time comes.

你提到要把握好峰值时间，这真的很有趣。

And that's so interesting that you said you have to peak at the right time.

我猜你一定是随着时间慢慢学会了如何做到这一点，因为在我脑子里，这种大项目应该提前六个月就开始准备。

So have you learned how to do that over time I assume because in my head I'm thinking, oh wait, for something this big you'd prepare six months in advance.

但我喜欢你说的，确实，

But I love what you're saying Yeah, like actually,

通常一个训练周期你只能维持三到六周的高强度训练，之后就需要适当放松一下。

a training block normally you can only sustain say three to six weeks of hard effort before you kind of need like a de load time.

基本上，你只能持续训练一段时间，然后需要自然休息一下，之后才能再次开始训练。

Like, basically, you can only build for a certain amount of time, and then you need some kind of natural rest, and then you can start building again.

所以理想情况下，你会随着时间自然地逐步提升。

And so ideally, you sort of, like, naturally build up over time.

但如果你距离比赛还有六个月，你就得制定一个相当复杂的计划：比如高强度训练一个月，然后休息一两周，再继续高强度训练。

But if you were, say, six months out from an event, you'd have to have a pretty sophisticated, like, I'm gonna train really hard for a month, but then rest for like a week or two and then train really hard.

你知道，你需要一个复杂的训练方案。

You know, you need like a complicated plan.

在这种情况下，我的计划相对简单，就是一直逐步增加训练量直到比赛。

In this case, have a relatively simple plan in that I'm basically just ramping until the building.

我可能有点过早地开始了训练。

And I kind of started my training maybe a little prematurely.

我一开始特别兴奋。

Was all psyched.

所以我想在圣诞节前后安排一次短暂的恢复期，这正好和假期安排吻合。

And so I think I'm gonna take a little deload time around Christmas, which actually works perfectly with holidays and things.

因为我觉得我会先训练大约六周，然后在圣诞节期间休息一周，接着再训练三到四周，最后完成目标。

Because I think I'll I'll basically wind up doing six weeks or so and then have like a week at Christmas where I kind of chill and then do another three or four weeks and then do the thing.

你听起来简直就像我们，亚历克斯，不是吗。

You sound just like us Alex, no.

一切似乎都恰到好处，你知道的，我觉得应该会很完美，但还得看看情况。

Just seemed like it was all kind of perfectly, you know, think it should be perfect but we'll see.

到目前为止，我的状态很好，感觉非常有力，是的，太棒了。

So far, so far I'm responding well and feel really strong and yes, it's great.

我很喜欢听到这些。

I love hearing that.

我迫不及待想看到结果。

I I'm excited to see it.

我真是太兴奋了。

Like I'm so thrilled.

现场完成这件事简直是一种真正的享受，我觉得你给我们带来了莫大的荣幸。

To do it live is just, you know, you're giving us a real treat like I think, you know.

不过这很有趣，因为对我来说，现场表演反而让人更放松。

It's interesting though because like for me the live thing doesn't, if anything it makes it more chill.

因为通常拍摄纪录片时，你得去现场完成拍摄，然后还得回去补拍镜头、录音频，基本上要做一大堆额外的工作。

Because normally when you shoot a documentary, you go and you do the thing then and you have to go back and film on it and you have to shoot pickups and shoot audio and like do all this extra work basically.

所以，你知道，这需要付出巨大的努力。

And so, you know, it's this tremendous amount of effort.

但对于现场活动，我就觉得：我去表演，然后飞回家，就结束了。

But for the live event, I'm kind of like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna fly home and I'm done.

这简直太棒了。

Like, it's totally amazing.

我一完成攀登，就彻底完成了。

It's like as soon as I do the climb, I'm totally done.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得不是这样的。

I'm like, No.

但我觉得对我们来说更有趣，因为我们能和你在一起。

But I think for us, it's more fun because we get to be there with you.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但我其实并不太在意。

But I just don't you know, I basically don't totally care.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的，关于别人的经验，比如因为

You know, about like other people experience, like, because

哦，你不在意？

Oh, you don't?

哦，原来如此，挺有意思的。

Oh, so oh, interesting.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

我有点觉得，如果拍成一部关于这个的电影，比如，那种现场体验对我来说也挺好。

I'm sort of like, if it was a film about it, like, that'd be fine for me too, the live thing.

基本上，我想完成一次让我感到自豪的攀登。

Basically, I wanna I wanna do a climb that I'm proud of.

我很期待去攀登它。

Like, I'm excited about climbing it.

至于别人怎么体验这个，我有点觉得

And the way other people experience that, I'm kind of like

你不在乎，是吧。

You don't yeah.

我的意思是，我不想说我不在乎，因为我希望别人能从中获得愉快的体验。

I mean, I don't wanna say I don't care because I want other people to have, you know, a good time from it.

但你知道，那不是优先事项。

But like, you know, that's not the priority.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

你只是因为热爱才去做它。

Well, you just do it because you love it.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是关键所在。

I mean, that's that's kind of the thing.

而且我觉得

And I think

挺有意思的。

interesting as that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这太棒了。

That's brilliant.

多好的地方啊。

What a great place.

我觉得每个人都想这样生活。

I think everyone wants to live that way.

你做它是因为你喜欢，这其实并不重要。

You do it because you love it, it doesn't really matter.

是的，有趣的是，当这个项目刚公布时，攀岩圈里的人果然在网上喷个不停，说什么为什么要这么做？

Yeah, it's funny like when it first got announced as a project, there was, you know, the sort of expected online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community being like, why would you do that?

太蠢了，为什么要爬建筑？太危险了，或者类似的各种批评理由。

That's stupid, why climb buildings too risky or like, you know, whatever, you know, criticism for various reasons.

但我当时就想，等等看这个东西吧。

But I was kind of like, man, wait till you see the thing.

太酷了。

It's so cool.

特别有趣。

It's so fun.

如果你有机会做这件事，你也会做的。

You know, if you had the opportunity to do this, you would do it too.

因为任何攀岩者都会同意做这个，因为实在太有趣了。

Because like any climber would say yes to this because it's super fun.

而且，任何有机会做一件了不起事情的机会，你为什么拒绝呢？

And any, you know, like getting an opportunity to do something amazing, it's like, why would you ever say no to that?

但我的目标，如果你非要说我对这座建筑有什么目标的话，那不是去攀爬它，而是真正享受这个过程，因为我想让人们从中学到的就是这一点。

But my goal for the, you know, if I can say I have a goal for the building, I mean, than climbing it, is just to actually have fun doing it because I'm kind of like, that's what I want people to see from it.

这太棒了。

Like, this is awesome.

你知道的，这可不是什么玩命的特技。

You know, not like this some death defying stunt.

它应该像这样，太棒了。

It should be like, this is amazing.

这真的超有趣。

Like, this is so fun.

这充满欢乐，你知道的？

This is joyous, you know?

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

是的，我喜欢你让这件事这么有游戏感，因为触动这种感觉，我想我们都能产生共鸣，当它只是充满趣味、令人兴奋的时候。

Yeah, I love how playful you make it because appealing to that part, I think we can all relate to that when it was just, when it was playful, when it was exciting, when it was

对。

Yeah.

我知道，这件事被包裹在各种极端的氛围里，让人觉得确实风险极高。

I know it's like, this thing is it gets wrapped in all this, like it's extreme and you're kind of like, yes, I mean, it's very high consequence.

比如，如果我犯了个错，彻底搞砸了，我可能会死。

Like if I make a mistake, if I totally botched something, I could die.

你可能会说，是的，这一点确实不能轻描淡写。

And you're like, yeah, that's, you don't want to downplay that too much.

但与此同时，这其实还挺有趣的。

But at the same time, it's pretty fun.

关键是，如果我开车时或做其他事情时不够专注，后果也是一样的。

And the thing is that those are the same consequences if I don't pay attention when I'm driving or like whatever else.

生活中有很多事情，一旦搞砸了，同样会致命。

There are plenty of other things you do in life where if you botch it, you're going to die.

但人们却对其中一些事情习以为常。

And yet people take some of those things for granted.

就像说，哦，这不过是普通生活罢了。

It's like, oh, that's just normal life.

你会觉得，你得有意识地规划自己在哪些地方承担风险。

You're kind of like, well, you know, it's like you gotta be intentional around where you're taking your risks.

是的。

Yeah.

当你做事情的时候，你觉得这种心态有帮助吗？就是意识到这一点，把事情看得更真实、更平常一些，这种思维方式有帮助吗？

Do you think that's a helpful mindset when you are doing things as well to recognize it, to see it more as, I guess grounded in real and normal in terms of when you're processing things, is that a helpful mindset?

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

就拿你描述的这种方式来说，我同意，你也觉得这里面其实也有很大的风险。

Like even just the way you describe it, which I agree with, you're like, yeah, well there's crazy risk in this as well.

你说得对，比如开车时发短信，或者酒后驾车，诸如此类的事情。

And you're right, like in driving for example and texting and you know, all that kind of stuff or drink driving or whatever.

是的，对我来说，酒后驾车才是最危险的。

Yeah, drinking and driving to me is the thing.

人们总是说，攀岩看起来很危险。

People are always like, oh, climbing seems dangerous.

而你可能会说，攀岩至少是你主动选择承担的风险。

And you're like, well, the thing with climbing is at least you're choosing the risks that you're taking.

而且显然我在为这些风险做训练和准备。

And obviously I'm training for them, I'm preparing for them.

我在家会想象建筑物的结构，以便在脑海中模拟动作，你知道，这其中涉及很多东西。

You know, I have I have like imagery of the building at home so I can visualize the moves, you know, like there's a lot that goes into it.

而人们周五晚上去派对，然后开车回家，却问：‘还能怎样呢？’

Whereas people go on party on Friday night and then they drive home and they're like, what else?

你知道，这不过是周五我出去玩而已。

You know, it's just a Friday I'm partying.

而你可能会说，那些行为其实是在不知不觉中承担了巨大的风险。

And you're like, well, those you're taking a tremendous amount of risk sort of unintentionally.

发短信开车也是同样的情况。

Same with texting and driving too.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，这些正是那种你可能会想，如果你不是主动选择承担这些风险，那我就不知道了。

Mean, and those are the types of things where you're like, you know, it's like if you're not choosing to take those risks, I don't know.

我的意思是，我觉得这反而更糟糕。

I mean, I think that's kind of worse.

是的。

Yeah.

跟我聊聊可视化吧，因为我特别推崇可视化。

Talk to me about the visualization because I'm such a big fan of visualization.

是的，我读过这方面的内容。

Yeah, I read about it.

作为一种冥想技巧。

As a meditation technique.

就是你刚才说的，你脑子里有那栋楼的画面。

To me about where you just said you have a picture of the building.

嗯，在攀岩时，比如当我攀登高难度路线时，你总是会想象整条路线，思考并记住每一个动作。

Well, yeah, so I mean, in rock climbing, like when I'm climbing hard roots, let's say, you always just imagine the route, you think about it, you remember the moves.

其中一部分是为了身体记住该怎么做，比如左手、右手，放下左髋，转动膝盖，类似这样的动作细节。

Part of it is to physically remember what to do, like left hand, right hand, like drop the left hip, you know, turn the knee, things like that, like the mechanics of it.

而可视化的一部分则是想象那种感觉，尤其是在自由独攀时，那些你可能无法实际练习的情况。

And then part of the visualization is like, what will it feel like, particularly on free soloing, things that you're not gonna be able to practice necessarily.

所以有些可视化只是想象，比如当我要跳出去时，脚踩在特别滑的点上，它突然滑脱了，那会是什么感觉。

So some of the visualizing is just, you know, like, how will it feel to put my foot on something that's really slippery when, you know, I'm gonna dive, it slips.

因此你只是在想象那些感觉和类似的东西。

And so you're just kind of imagining the sensations and all that that kind of stuff.

作为自由独攀的一部分，你不可能随时去那栋楼练习吗？

So you can't As part of free soloing, you can't go and climb this building at any point in order to practice?

嗯，可以系着绳子去练习。

Well, no, can go practice it with a rope.

明白了。

Okay.

但问题是，当你系着绳子时，你根本不在乎脚会不会滑，可当你摘掉绳子后，你就会想：这感觉会不会不一样？

But the thing is you just don't know because when you have a rope on, you don't really mind if your foot's gonna slip But or then when you take the rope away, you're kind of like, well, it going to feel different?

就像，我不知道。

Like, I don't know.

你没法完全练习那种感觉。

And you can't totally practice that.

所以你只能在心理上模拟。

So you kind of have to do that mentally.

只是想象一下。

Just imagine it

是的。

and Yes.

你在有保护绳的时候，几乎能感受到一种彩排般的状态。

You get a sense while you're on the rope almost as a dress rehearsal feeling.

然后你得记住那种感觉。

And then you're having to remember that feeling.

对。

Yeah.

有点想象一下可能的感觉，因为我觉得可视化的好处之一就是你会想，如果那天很潮湿怎么办？

Sort of imagine the potential feelings because part of the the benefit of visualization, I think, is that you're like, what if it's humid that day?

如果特别干燥怎么办？

What if it's particularly dry?

关于建筑，有趣的是，玻璃和金属的质感显然和岩石完全不同。

And like with the building, it's interesting because with glass and metal, you know, the texture is obviously really different than rock.

所以我不确定我是希望天气潮湿还是干燥。

And so I'm not sure if I want it to be humid or if I want it to be dry.

像爬岩石时，通常希望天气非常干燥，因为如果潮湿，岩石会太滑。

Like with rock, you normally want it to be super dry because if it's humid, it's too slippery on the rock.

但建筑本来就非常滑，我觉得反而需要一点湿度，这样不会感觉太滑。

But with a building, because it's so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want some humidity so it doesn't feel as slippery.

比如，你希望皮肤能稍微粘住表面，所以需要一点点湿润感。

Like, you want your skin to stick to it a little bit, and so you want, like, a little bit of dampness.

但 obviously，不能太湿。

But obviously, don't wetness.

你不想让它湿，因为那样会非常滑。

You don't want it to be wet because then it's really slippery.

所以，总之，我只是在思考这类事情，我认为这都是可视化的一部分。

So anyway, just thinking about stuff like that, I mean, that's all part of visualization, I think.

但我想说的是，在攀岩时，你通常不会有这类场景的影像资料。

But what I was gonna say is that with with rock climbing, you know, you don't normally have footage of any of this type of stuff.

所以你只能想象，回忆起你攀爬的过程。

So you just imagine that you remember, you think about the climb.

但这座建筑不同，我们已经去实地勘察过了，他们正在练习摄像机的机位。

With this building, you know, we already went to a scout and they're practicing the camera positions.

他们让无人机沿着大楼上下飞行，以确定各种拍摄角度之类的东西。

They flew a drone up and down the building to, like, figure out the angles and all that kind of stuff.

所以，我以前从没这么做过，但我还是联系了制作团队。

And so I never I don't think I'd ever done this before, but I was I kind of reached out to the production team.

我跟他们说，麻烦发一些整栋建筑的精选画面给我，这样我能更好地记住所有不同的镜头序列。

It was kind of like, send me, you know, selects of the whole building so I can remember all the all the different sequences better.

于是他们给我发了一些大楼的视觉素材，还发了我攀爬不同东西的片段。

And so they sent me just some visuals of the building, but then they also sent me some clips of me climbing different things.

我当时就想，这实际上非常有用，因为我可以看到自己是怎么做的，哪些地方可以改进，总之我觉得这太棒了。

I was like, oh, this is actually tremendously useful because I can see, you know, how I'm doing it and what I can do better and just, you know, I was like, oh, this is great.

是的。

Yeah.

不过我很喜欢你把可视化作为技巧来使用。

I love that you use visualization as a technique though.

每个攀岩者都会这么做。

Every climber does.

这是攀岩中非常重要的一部分。

It's a really big part of climbing.

你是在想象整个过程、质感和感觉。

And you're visualizing the process, texture, the feeling.

所有方面。

Everything.

是的，所有你能想象或了解的细节。

Yeah, every detail that you could possibly imagine or know from.

有时候你会想象那种体验，比如后果——如果你摔下来会怎样？

And sometimes you're imagining, you know, the experience, like the consequences of it are like, what if you do fall?

尤其是像在El Cab进行自由攀登时，我花了很长时间去准备那个路线。

Like, I mean, like particularly with with freestyling El Cab, like with, I've spent so long kind of working on that.

我一直在想，如果我从这里摔下去，或者从那里摔下去会怎样？

I mean, I thought about, like, what if I fell from here or fell from there?

因为即使这些画面很可怕——毕竟你可能会摔死，而且方式极其惨烈，你知道，在很多地方从山上摔下去，不是那种干净利落的坠落，然后直接撞地。

Just because and even though those are terrible things to visualize because it's you falling to your death in horrible ways because, you know, in a lot of places falling off a mountain, it's not like a clean it's not like I fell and then you hit the ground.

而是你会弹跳，可能几百英尺、甚至一千英尺，那简直是一场灾难。

It's like you bounce, you know, hundreds of feet or a thousand feet and it's a disaster.

所以提前思考这些事很重要，这样当你真的在上面时，不会突然第一次意识到：哦，如果我从这儿摔下去，那就完蛋了。

And so But it's important to think about that stuff ahead of time so that when you're up there, you don't suddenly for the first time, you know, it's not like, oh, if I fell here, it would be horrible.

而是你早就已经考虑过这些了。

It's like, no, you've already thought about that.

你想象过它，处理过它，然后选择将它搁置一旁，依然继续攀登。

You visualize it, you processed it, and and you've chosen to set that aside and execute the climb anyway.

是的。

Yeah.

你已经在安全的环境中直面过那种不适感。

You've already sat with the discomfort of that feeling in a safe environment.

没错。

Exactly.

所以现在你可以觉察到这种感受，并把它带入这次攀登中。

So now you can track that and bring that with you to this

是的。

Yeah.

现在你不必在高处时再费心去想这些了。

Now you don't have to think about it while you're up there.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我的意思是，理想情况下，你应该提前把所有这些都考虑清楚。

I mean, ideally, you think through all that stuff ahead of time.

是的。

Yeah.

到目前为止，在建房这件事上，我还没深入考虑这些，因为我还有一段距离，目前主要关注的是实际操作方面。

And so far with the building, I haven't gotten too deep into all that yet just because I'm still kind of a ways out and I'm sort of focused on the physical side.

而且我觉得，这离我个人的极限还不是很近。

And it's just not quite as close to my personal edge, I I think.

我很确定。

I'm pretty sure.

我觉得这应该完全在我的舒适区内。

Like, I just I think it should be well within my comfort zone, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，人们很少花时间去想‘如果我死了怎么办’这种问题。

So there's just not as much time devoted to like, what if I die?

是的。

Yeah.

但谁知道呢，我们走着瞧吧。

But you know, we'll see.

不，不，但我很喜欢这个画面，你觉得呢？让我感兴趣的是，我在想我们所有人，我觉得世界上最小的事情如果能这样处理会更容易。比如，我从事公开演讲很多年了，我总是会要一张舞台的照片，这样我就能在脑海中想象自己走上台的样子，避免走出去时绊倒，我还会想象所有细节，我举这个很人性化的例子，是希望我的听众能从中得到启发：好吧，那我该怎么用这个方法呢？

No, no, I, but I love the visual, do you, what's interesting to me because I'm thinking about all of us and I, you know, I think the smallest things in the world would be easier if, so for example, I've been public speaking for years and I've always asked for a picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself walking so that I don't trip over when I go out there, so that I, and I think about all the, and I'm giving a very human example of something that I hope my listeners can take away going, okay, well how do I use that?

我会想象自己做演讲，想象自己第一次做困难的事情，我几乎会想象一切，我把这当作一种技巧。

I'm like, visualize myself giving presentations, visualize myself doing difficult things for the first time, I visualize pretty much everything, I use it as a technique.

但你可是受过训练的视觉化者啊。

You're a trained visualizer though.

所以，这对你来说并不是一个能随手拿来就用的简单工具。

So Yeah, it's like not an easy tool for you to pull out of the box.

当然，但我真的鼓励大家去尝试，因为听你这么说，我觉得你确实把所有细节都可视化了，而我特别喜欢的是，你一次都没说过，我也想问问你：你并没有只说‘我想象自己到达顶峰并庆祝’。

For sure, but I would really encourage people to do it because hearing you talk about it, I'm like, yeah you're visualizing all the details and what I love that you haven't once said, and I want to ask you about this, is you didn't just say, oh I visualized myself getting to the top and celebrating.

我是说，不，我确实想象了。

It's like, no I visualized.

是的，我并不

Yeah, I don't

不在乎那个。

care about that.

对，对，我以为你不关心，这才是重点。

Yeah, yeah, I thought you didn't, that's it's about.

跟我聊聊这个吧，因为我觉得今天当我们谈论显化和想象时，人们都认为想象就是想象你想要的生活。

Talk to me about that because I think that's what today when we talk about manifesting and visualizing people have this visualize where you want to live.

是的，想象成功。

Yeah, visualize success.

对吧？

Right?

但其实呢，是的

And it's like Yeah,

谁在乎那个？

who cares about that?

因为那样自然就会随之而来。

Because like that'll just follow.

如果发生了，那就太好了。

Like if that happens, great.

如果没有，那就随它吧。

If it doesn't, whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

对，这很有趣。

Yeah, it's funny.

我从来没想象过那个。

Haven't visualized that.

实际上，我的意思是，这也不完全对，因为大楼顶部有一个非常棒的小尖顶。

Actually, I mean, it's not totally true because the top of the building is this incredible little spire.

这就像一个小空间，基本上就是我们之间的空隙。

It's like a small little it's it's basically the space between us.

它只是

It's just a

一个小穹顶。

little dome.

所以你

And so you

就站在这上面，是的。

just stand on this yeah.

你站在这个小小的尖顶上，简直不可思议。

You stand on this tiny little pinnacle, and it's incredible.

景色太震撼了。

The view is insane.

但你知道，我已经上去过一次了，比如爬过舱口只是为了看看，还从侧面攀降下来之类的。

But, you know, I've already gone up there, like, climbed up through the hatch just to, like, check it out and and rappel off the side and things.

所以，我知道这很惊人，也知道站在上面的感觉一定会很棒。

And so, I mean, I know it's amazing, and I know that it's gonna feel amazing to stand up there.

我其实并没有真正想象过那个场景，因为你知道，事情发生的时候自然就会发生。

I haven't really, like, visualized that because I'll just you know, it's like when it happens, it happens.

是的。

Yeah.

但不，你确实需要想象这些重要的东西。

But, no, you visualize this stuff that's important.

但事实上，说到这个，我认为如果面向普通观众的话，也许不该把它称为想象，因为作为攀岩者这么多年，我一直只是把它看作白日梦。

But but, actually, I mean, talking about this, I think I think in some ways, if you're talking about, like, the layperson audience, whatever, I think maybe it's worth not framing it as visualization because, you know, over the years as a climber, I've always just kind of thought of it as daydreaming.

你知道，作为攀岩者，你花大量时间徒步往返于悬崖之间，而我经常独自一人在山里行走。

You know, it's like because also as a climber, you spend so much time hiking to and from cliffs, and I spent a lot of time by myself walking around, you know, in the mountains.

你就会花很多时间白日做梦，基本上就是在想象攀岩的情景。

And you just spend a lot of time daydreaming, basically, like thinking about climbing.

所以，偶尔像这样的项目，我会刻意去想象，比如告诉自己：好了，我正在为一件事做准备。

And so, you know, occasionally, like a project like this, I'll intentionally visualize where I'm like, okay, I'm getting ready for a thing.

但基本上，每次我去山里散步时，都会花大量时间思考，你知道的，你的思绪总会漫无目的地飘到某些事情上。

But basically, anytime I go wandering in the mountains, I spend a tremendous amount of time just thinking about, you know, like your mind's always wandering on something.

它可能是在漫想你感兴趣的攀爬路线，或者你正在考虑的项目，那些搁置在一旁、你希望重新拾起的事情。

It might as be wandering through climbs that you're excited about or things that you're thinking about or projects that you have, like things on the back burner that you didn't quite do that you want to go back to.

所以，我的意思是，与其把它想得那么严肃，不如把它看作：当你去徒步或带着狗散步时，只是自然而然地遐想一些对你重要的事情。

So, you know, I mean, I think it's less daunting to think of it as like, oh, when you're out for a hike or like out for a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things that matter to you.

这其实就是一种心理预演。

Like, that is visualization.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yes.