科迪·桑切斯：如何用普通薪资致富！（立即运用这个简单公式打造真正财富）

这是一个iHeart播客。

This is an iHeart podcast.

劳氏知道奖励会员能得到更多。这就是为什么当你今天注册MyLowesRewards或MyLowesPro Rewards时，你能获得会员优惠、积分等更多福利。此外，从银钥匙和金Pro级别开始，你还能享受免费标准配送。奖励会员的节省累积很快，所以还等什么？免费成为奖励会员，今天就获得更多节省。

Lowes knows that rewards members get more. That's why when you sign up for MyLowesRewards or MyLowesPro Rewards today, you get member deals, points, more. Plus, you get free standard shipping starting at Silver Key and Gold Pro status. Savings for Rewards members add up fast, so why wait? Become a rewards member for free and get more savings today.

忠诚计划受条款和条件约束。详情请见lowes.com/terms。可能会有变动。本集《On Purpose》由Chase Sapphire Reserve赞助播出。我相信旅行是我们被赋予的最伟大的礼物之一，而Chase Sapphire Reserve一直是我通往世界最迷人目的地的大门。

Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions. Details at lowes.com/terms. Subject to change. This episode of On Purpose is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. I believe that travel is one of the greatest gifts that we've ever been given, and Chase Sapphire Reserve has been my gateway to the world's most captivating destinations.

当我使用我的Chase Sapphire Reserve卡时，我在Chase Travel上所有消费都能获得八倍积分，甚至还能接触到独一无二的体验，比如音乐节和体育赛事。这还不提这张卡能让我进入全国精选机场的Sapphire休息室。用Chase Sapphire Reserve旅行更有回报。相信我。更多信息请访问chase.com/sapphirereserve。

When I use my Chase Sapphire Reserve card, I get eight times the points on all the purchases I make through Chase Travel, and even access to one of a kind experiences, experiences like music festivals and sporting events. And that's not even mentioning how the card gets me into the Sapphire lounge by the club at select airports nationwide. Travel is more rewarding with Chase Sapphire Reserve. Trust me. Discover more at chase.com/sapphirereserve.

卡片由JPMorgan Chase Bank NA发行，会员FDIC。需信用审批。条款适用。我是《On Purpose》的Jay Shetty。如果你曾感到失衡，有时换个环境是最好的重置方式。达美航空邀请了四位创作者探索一个想法：如果旅行不仅仅是移动，而是在行进中充电呢？结果如何？根据他们的Oura Ring睡眠评分，每个人都以更休息充足的状态迎接新的一天，而且一种清晰感在旅行结束后长久保持。

Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Subject to credit approval Terms apply This is Jay Shetty from On Purpose. If you've ever felt off balance, sometimes a change of scenery is the best reset. Delta invited four creators to explore one idea: What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? And the results? Based on their Oura Ring sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested, and a sense of clarity stayed long after the trip.

与达美同行，飞得更好，活得更好。在达美的YouTube频道探索完整旅程。

With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel.

如果你不懂钱，你就永远赚不到更多钱，因为理解金钱就像说一门语言。如果你不会说同一种语言，你怎么用西班牙语与人交流、沟通并在那种关系中获胜呢？所以我希望人们能说金钱的语言。让我告诉你，比如，今天判断你是否具备金融素养的一个方法。你真的理解借记卡和信用卡的区别吗？以及为什么你真的不应该使用借记卡？

If you don't understand money, you're never gonna make more of it because understanding money is like speaking a language. How are you gonna speak to somebody in Spanish and communicate and win at that relationship if you guys don't speak the same language. So I want people to speak the language of money. Let me tell you, like, one way to know if you're financially literate today. Do you really understand the difference between debit and credit cards and why you should really never be using debit cards?

头号健康与养生播客。

The number one health and wellness podcast.

杰伊·谢蒂。杰伊·谢蒂。独一无二的杰伊·谢蒂。

Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty.

大家好，欢迎回到《有目的生活》，这个让你变得更快乐、更健康、更治愈的地方。今天的嘉宾是过去十二个月里你们最喜欢的嘉宾之一。她的节目在音频平台上爆火，在视频平台上表现极佳，我非常激动能再次邀请她回来，因为你们用来形容她的词是：这太实用了。这太简单了。

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest was one of your favorites of the last twelve months. Her episode blew up on audio, crushed it on video and I'm so excited to have her back because the words you used to describe her were this is so practical. This is so simple.

这太容易了。谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。谢谢。

This is so easy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

我在评论里看到的全是这些。我们不得不再次邀请她回来，而且非常幸运能够做到。我说的是独一无二的科迪·桑切斯，企业家、投资者、逆向思维平台的创始人，该平台通过收购被忽视的现金流业务帮助人们实现财务自由。科迪曾是一名记者和华尔街投资者，如今领导着一个全球社区，专注于所有权、非传统投资以及以不同方式思考金钱。通过她的平台，包括畅销书《主街百万富翁》。

That's all I saw in the comments. We had to bring her back and we're so lucky that we could. I'm speaking about the one, the only Cody Sanchez, entrepreneur, investor, founder of contrarian thinking, a platform that helps people achieve financial freedom by acquiring overlooked, cash flowing businesses. Formerly a journalist and Wall Street investor, Cody now leads a global community focused on ownership, unconventional investing, and thinking differently about money. Through her platforms, including the best selling book, Main Street Millionaire.

如果你还没有一本，快去拿一本。科迪已经建立了一个超过400万人的社区，教他们如何批判性思考、明智投资并掌控自己的财务未来。请再次欢迎来到《有目的生活》的科迪·桑切斯。我非常激动能来到这里。科迪，很高兴你能再次做客。

If you don't have a copy, go and grab one. Cody has built a community of over 4,000,000 people, teaching them how to think critically, invest wisely and own their financial future. Please welcome back to On Purpose, Cody Sanchez. I'm so excited to be here. Cody, it's great to have you back.

你知道，真正有趣的是，当你遇到某人，你们一拍即合，然后再次相聚，感觉就像平常一样轻松自在。我想从一个我认为大家都在思考的事情开始。我对此非常着迷，因为我们很多人开始相信媒体，我们阅读文章，看新闻，看头条，然后我们假设现在不是赚钱的好时机。我们不断说诸如等市场好转、等市场转变之类的话，现在买房时机太糟糕了。时机太糟糕了。

And you know, what's really fun is when you met someone, you hit it off and then you're hanging out again, it just feels like normal and easy and all the rest of it. I want to start with something that I think everything everyone's thinking about. And I'm fascinated by it because a lot of us start to believe the media and we read articles, we see the news, we see headlines and we assume that now is not a great time to make money. And we keep saying things like when the market's better, when the market shifts, it's a terrible time to buy property. It's a terrible time.

有趣的是，这种说辞还在继续。那么关于金钱，人们现在应该考虑些什么呢？是的。

And the funny thing is that rhetoric just continues. So what should people think about right now when it comes to money? Yeah.

首先，我认为你必须诚实地承认现在生活很艰难，这是现实。就像你现在对金钱和财务的所有感受都是真实的。工资水平基本上从

Well, first, I think you got to be honest about the fact that it's hard out there and that it's real. Like, all the things that you're feeling about money and finance right now are real. Wages have been the same really since,

你知道，你我出生的时候就没变过。

you know, you and I were born.

实际上并没有真正增长。真的吗？是的。我的意思是，如果你回顾一下，比如说回到戴夫·拉姆齐的时代，他是我的朋友，我很尊敬他。但如果你回到戴夫·拉姆齐工作的年代，他今天会告诉你应该买房。

It hasn't really increased. Really? Yeah. Mean, you know, if you go back and you go to let's say back to Dave Ramsey's days, who is a friend and I and I think highly of. But if you go back to Dave Ramsey, when Dave was working, he would tell you today that you should buy a house.

这是你应该做的头等大事。你应该拥有自己的房子，拥有自己的房产。但如今的问题是，在他的一生中，我们的工资只增长了两倍，而房价却增长了几倍。所以我们真的负担不起上一代人认为完全正常的东西。

That's the number one thing that you should do. You should own a house. You should own your property. Well, the problem with that today is that our wages have increased two x in his lifetime, but housing prices, well, they've increased by nine x in his lifetime. And so we we you cannot really afford the same things that the previous generation thought of as totally normal.

因此，他们的模式可能不适用于我们这一代。所以第一，我认为重要的是要意识到现在确实很艰难。但第二，我认为我们必须回到沃伦·巴菲特所说的：在别人贪婪时恐惧，在别人恐惧时贪婪。这真的很难做到，会让我们内心感到痛苦。

And so their construct might not work for our generation. So one, I think it's important to realize that it is hard out there. Second though is I think we got to go back to what Warren Buffet says, is be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful. And it's really hard to do. It hurts in our gut.

但如今，我们周围的一切都开始打折销售。我们必须尝试在这个时期弄清楚：我如何才能开始分得一小杯羹？奥斯汀的房价下跌了30%。这仅仅是从我一年前买房以来发生的。所以我们周围实际上到处都在打折，我认为我们必须为此做好准备。

But today, all around us, things are starting to go on sale. And what we have to try to do is figure out during this time period, how can I start to get a little piece of it? Housing prices in Austin are down 30%. This is really just since I bought a house a year ago. And so there is actually sales happening all around us, and I think we gotta be prepared for it.

但在我们买东西之前，我们得有足够的钱才行，而且我们得对金钱有点了解才能赚更多。所以我觉得我们也该谈谈这个。是的，现在确实很难。是的。

But before we can buy things, we gotta have enough money to do it, and we gotta we gotta kinda know a little bit about money in order to make more of it. So I think we should talk about too. Yes. It's hard right now. Yes.

东西都在打折。你没疯，但在任何市场都能赚钱。我最喜欢的一句来自巴伦·罗斯柴尔德的引述——他是世界上最富有的人之一，美国工业的创建者——说的是：当街上血流成河时买入，尤其是当血是你自己的时候。这是一种很形象的表达方式，让你意识到真正的财富实际上是在市场艰难时创造的。

Things are in sale. You are not crazy, but you can make money in any market. And one of my favorite quotes from Baron Rothschilds, one of the richest guys in the world, you know, creator of industry in The US is buy when there's blood on the streets even and especially when the blood is your own. And so that is a hard visual way to realize that actually real money is made when the market feels tough.

是的。所以实际上，即使市场现在很艰难，我们也不应该气馁，等待市场好转。这反而应该是我们加倍努力、听取你建议的时候。

Yeah. So actually right now, even though the market is tough, we shouldn't be discouraged and waiting for the market to be good. This should be the time that we actually double down and listen to your advice.

没错。想想看，昨天我看到一个NFT，在NFT热潮顶峰时卖了6000万美元，今天只值1.9万美元。从6000万到1.9万。

Yeah. I mean, think about it. Was looking at an NFT yesterday that was sold for $60,000,000 in the height of the NFT land. It is worth $19,000 today. 60,000,000 to 19,000.

那时候感觉很好，对吧？每个人都在说，我们在赚钱，我们有了这么多额外的东西。但实际上发生的是，我们买入了价格过高的资产，而现在我们手里只剩下价格过低的资产。在这个市场上，相反的情况正在发生。

It felt good during that time, didn't it? Everybody was like, we're making money. We've got all this extra stuff. But what actually happened is we bought things at overpriced assets, and now we're left with assets that are underpriced. The opposite happens in this market.

所以现在正是时候，我觉得你应该竖起你的蜘蛛感应，开始思考：其他所有人都在恐慌，我可以在哪里开始做一些聪明的举动？因为总是有钱和机会的，但你肯定想在东西打折时买入。

And so right now is the time I think to put up your little Spidey sense and start saying, well, everybody else is panicking. Where can I start to make some smart moves? Because there's always money and opportunities, but definitely you wanna buy when things are on sale.

人们还应该梦想或考虑拥有自己的房子吗？

Should people even be dreaming or thinking about wanting to own a home anymore?

我认为，在当下把买房作为投资从数学角度来说并不是一个明智的决定。在我有生以来第一次，数据显示如今的房产——利率高达5%到8%，美国存在300万套的住房短缺，工资水平停滞不前，而房价却在持续上涨——这笔账根本算不过来。所以今天，你不应该觉得自己不够成熟、没有实现美国梦。

I think that owning a home as an investment right now today is mathematically not a smart decision. For the first time in my lifetime, the numbers say that homes today, where you have an interest rate of five to 8%, you have a 3,000,000 home shortage in The US, You have flat wages, and you have this increase of home prices. The math just isn't mathing. And so today, I don't think you should feel like you're not an adult. You don't live the American dream.

不买房不代表你就是失败者。实际上你可能非常具备财务智慧。顺便说一句，现在就去协商你的租金吧，因为市场上有大量空置房源，房东想留住租客。你现在的选择可能正是极其明智的财务决策。所以，如果你没有遵循过去那种'美国梦成年人'的标准路径，别让他人让你感到自卑。

You're a failure if you don't buy a house. You might actually just be really financially intelligent. Rent and go negotiate your rent prices right now, by the way, because there's a lot of excess in the market, and they wanna keep you. And you might actually be making incredibly smart financial decision. And so don't let people make you feel bad if you're not doing what the American dream adult thing used to be.

市场已经变了。

The market's changed.

是的。你已经分享了一些当下非常实用的建议。比如现在正是协商租金的好时机，也是考虑寻找潜在购房机会的好时机（如果你有购房计划的话）。那么，在赚钱方面，人们现在应该考虑做什么与一年前截然不同、当时无法实现的新事情呢？

Yeah. You've already shared some really powerful advice for right now. Like even the idea that now is a great time to go and negotiate your rent, now is a great time to go and think about finding places to potentially purchase property if you are. Yep. What should be people thinking about doing right now when it comes to making money that you couldn't have been doing a year ago that's very different now?

没错。

Yeah.

这是个很好的问题。首先，我认为当下需要先掌握一些基础的财务知识。我们之前讨论过这个——据说美国人的平均阅读能力只有六年级水平。

It's a great question. Well, first, what I would think about today is I think you gotta first understand some, like, baseline financial literacy. And you and I were talking about this. You know? They say the the average American reads at a sixth grade reading level.

而他们对财务的理解平均仅达到高中程度。记得我们高中时学的都是最基础的预算管理。现在年轻人可能不这样了，但我们那会儿还得用支票本记账，现在大家都知道我多大年纪了——当时必须学会平衡支票簿。

They say the average American actually understands finances at about a high school level. So we're we're taught and you remember this in high school. We're taught all the way up to, like, budgeting. Like, back in our day, probably the kids don't do it this way anymore, but you used have checkbooks. Right now, everybody knows how old I was, and you have to, like, balance your checkbook.

那要怎么做呢？一个小账本。实际上这就是我们的上限。所以我认为首先，我希望人们意识到，如果你不懂金钱，你就永远赚不到更多钱，因为理解金钱就像说一门语言。如果你不会说同一种语言，你怎么用西班牙语与人交流、沟通并在这段关系中获胜呢？

And how do you do that? A little ledger. That's actually where we're capped. And so I think first, what I want people to do is realize that if you don't understand money, you're never gonna make more of it because understanding money is like speaking a language. How are you going to speak to somebody in Spanish and communicate and win at that relationship if you guys don't speak the same language?

这很难。对吧？所以我希望人们能说金钱的语言。我会从一些小方面来思考这个问题。让我告诉你一个判断今天你是否具备财务素养的方法。

It's very hard. Right? So I want people to speak the language of money. So I think about this in like small ways. Let me tell you like one way to know if you're financially literate today.

一个方法可能是，你真的理解借记卡和信用卡的区别吗？以及为什么你真的永远不应该使用借记卡？现在大家都在谈论信用卡有多不好。对吧？嗯，如果你不每月还清欠款，如果你让高利率累积，如果你把它当作“我想要”而不是“我需要”的东西，那么信用卡确实不好。但借记卡实际上更糟。

One way might be, do you really understand the difference between debit and credit cards and why you should really never be using debit cards? Everybody talks these days about how credit cards are bad. Right? Well, credit cards are bad if you don't pay off your payment every single month, if you allow big interest rates to stockpile, and if you use it as a I want things as opposed to I need things, credit cards are bad. But debit cards are actually worse.

它们不允许你建立信用，而在这个国家，良好的信用是财富的基石。借记卡做不到这一点。它们也不提供任何积分、福利或现金返还，而且实际上借记卡的保护更少。所以如果有人偷了你的借记卡并去消费，银行会说，我不知道。那是你的钱。

They don't allow you to build credit and credit good credit in this country is the underpinning of wealth. Debit cards do not allow that. They also don't give you any points or perks or cash back, and then you're less protected actually with a debit card. So if somebody steals your debit card and goes and charges things, the bank goes, I don't know. That's your money.

并不真的在乎。但如果你用信用卡消费了一大堆东西，出现了欺诈，他们会怎么做？点两下，他们就消除了。对吧？他们会给你寄一张新卡。

Don't really care. If you go and you charge a bunch of things on your credit card and there's fraud, what do do? Two clicks, they erase it. Right? They ship you a new card.

所以我认为这一代人被“信用不好、债务不好、不要有债务”这种观念折磨得太久了。嗯，世界上最富有的人，他们都有一些债务，只是好债务而不是坏债务。所以我希望你们开始的地方，实际上是在考虑赚更多钱之前，先让我们理解金钱的语言，对吧？

And so I think this generation was so tormented by credit is bad, debt is bad, don't have it. Well, the people who are the richest in the world, they all have some debt, just good debt as opposed to bad debt. So where I want you guys to start is actually before you even think of making more money, let's understand the language of money, right?

我很高兴我们停留在这个话题上。这太精彩了。而且我对此有亲身经历。我在伦敦长大，那里的设置不一样。类似，但不完全一样。

I'm so glad we're staying there. It's brilliant. And I had personal experience of this. So I grew up in London where it's not the same setup. Similar but it's not exactly the same.

整个体系对信用的依赖没有那么强。而且我从小接受的教育是只使用借记卡。所以我一生都在用借记卡。当我来到美国并搬到这里时，在这里的第一年，我生活拮据，没有多少钱。所以我只靠借记卡生活。

The whole structure is not based on credit as strongly. And I was trained to believe you only use a debit card. And so I used that my whole life. When I came to The US and I moved here, for the first year I lived here, I only lived and I didn't have a lot of money. So I was living just on a debit card.

然后当我终于想买车的时候，我在考虑，你知道，租公寓之类的，但我什么都办不成，因为我没有信用评分。我的信用评分几乎不存在，这让我如遭重击，因为我无法相信我终于生活有了起色，却无法真正行使任何权利。那么请给我讲讲关于信用卡和借记卡的误区，人们现在就可以解决。他们应该办某种特殊的信用卡吗？有没有更好的卡？

And then when I wanted to finally get a car, I was thinking about, you know, having an apartment, whatever it was, I couldn't get anything because I had no credit score. My credit score was like non existent and it hit me like a ton of bricks because I couldn't believe it that I'd finally done good with my life but I couldn't actually exercise any of it. So walk me through the myths about credit cards and debit cards that people can solve right now. Is there a special credit card they should be getting? Is there one that's better?

他们应该注意什么？APR是什么意思？你知道，给我讲讲信用卡的那些隐藏条款，当我们看到广告却完全不明白是什么意思时，都会觉得自己很傻

What should they be looking out for? What does APR mean? You know, walk me through the hidden things buying credit cards that we all feel stupid about when you see an ad and you're like, I have no idea what

确实如此。你知道吗，我有个员工克里斯蒂安也是从英国来的，我们其实还好心地取笑他，因为他只用借记卡付款，我甚至不知道英国的情况完全不一样。

that means. Yeah, it's so true. You know, had an employee actually Christian who's in from The UK too and we were ridiculing him mercifully actually because he only had a debit card to pay for things and I didn't even know that The UK was completely different.

不。英国也有信用卡，但这并不

No. There's there are credit cards, but it's not

这不是说这不正常。是的。我当时说，你是个28岁的男人了，居然没有信用卡？他却说，科迪，你需要多出去走走看看世界。

it's not said it's not normal. Yeah. I was like, you're a 28 year old man. You don't have a credit card? And he was like, you are you need to travel more, Cody.

我就说，抱歉啦。不过后来我们给他办了张信用卡，这样他就可以开始在这里建立信用了。但故事的寓意是，我认为实现财务自由的第一步是这样的：如果你想让孩子为成功做好准备，其实应该让他们尽早获得信用卡。那么信用卡的类型真的那么重要吗？

And I was like, sorry. But, then we got him a credit card so he could start establishing credit here. But moral of story is, here's I think the couple first steps to financial freedom. You know, you want to set up your kid for success, you actually want them to get a credit card really early. Does it so much matter what type of credit card?

我不像那些积分达人，喜欢把信用卡的每个方面都流程化和最优化。我觉得那比努力赚更多钱还要费劲。但我认为，如果你选择任何一家大银行的信用卡，它们有很多规则约束，所以银行其实不能在利率上对你耍太多花样。消费者有很多保护措施，所以不用太纠结选哪张卡。哪张卡看起来对你有不错的福利，并且能让你获得所需的最大额度？

I'm not like the points guy where I like to operationalize and optimize every aspect of a credit card. I think that is almost more work than trying to make more money. But I think if you go from any of the major banks, there are a lot of rules around credit cards, so they're really not allowed to mess with you so much on interest rates. There's a lot of protections for consumers, so don't stress too much about which one. Which one seems like it has some nice perks for you and you can get the most amount of money that you need?

很好。所以这是第一步。如果你能在孩子上高中时就为他们做到这一点，他们实际上就能更容易获得财富的第一支柱，我认为就是资源。我们都知道那句老话怎么说？赚钱需要本钱。

Cool. So that's step one. And if you can do that for your kids when they're in high school, they will actually have more access to the first pillar, I think, of wealth, which is resources. We all know what's the what's the saying? Takes money to make money.

对吧？所以如果你白手起家，实际上你可以从信用开始积累你的资源库，年轻的时候就可以开始。你不需要很有钱就能做到。在资源之后，你再积累知识。对吧？

Right? And so if you come from nothing, well, you can start actually building up your resource pile just from your credit, which you can start at a young age. You don't need to be rich to do that. And then after resources, you pile on knowledge. Right?

富人传承的是投资方法。我们需要开始向下一代传授这些。然后你传承财富积累。那就是你开始积累自己财富的时候。最后，你传承的是投资能力，让资金持续循环流动，为你创造价值。

The rich pass on how to invest. We need to start doing that to our next generation. Then you pass on wealth accumulation. That's where you start to to pile on your own money. And then finally, you pass on, you know, the ability to invest to continue to move cyclically your money around and make it work for you.

但这就是我会开始的地方。就像你从一张信用卡开始，你有一张借记卡其实只是因为有时你想取现金，比如去俱乐部买饮料或者现在人们做的那些比我酷的事情。这就是起点。然后我会进入下一个阶段：好吧，如果我有了信用，现在我们需要专注于赚钱。那么我如何赚更多钱？

But that's where I would start. It's like you start with a credit card, you have a debit card really just because you wanna get cash out sometimes if you're going to the club and buying drinks or whatever people do these days that are cooler than me. And that's where I would start. And then I would move to this next level of, okay, if I have some credit, now we need to focus on earning. So how do I make more money?

但我认为大多数人跳过了第一步，因为信用让人害怕。听着，查理·芒格，沃伦·巴菲特的搭档，显然是个非常有名的人，他有一句我特别喜欢的话：男人破产只有三个原因——威士忌、女人和杠杆。而杠杆就是债务。对吧？沃伦·巴菲特最后给他加了一句俏皮话，他说：我觉得我朋友真正想说的其实是最后一个。

And but I think most people skip that first step because credit is scary. And like, listen, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett's partner, obviously very famous dude, but he has a line I love which is men only go broke by three things and it's whiskey, women, and leverage. And leverage means debt. Right? Warren Buffett gave him a little adage to it at the end and he goes, I think actually what my friend meant to say was it's really just the last one.

其实真的就是杠杆。而沃伦·巴菲特，世界上最富有的人之一，说过他不喜欢债务。但问题就在这里，杰伊。他其实杠杆很高。他有巨额债务。

It's really just leverage. And Warren Buffett, one of the richest guys in the world said he doesn't like debt. But here's the problem, Jay. He's highly levered. He has a massive amount of debt.

为什么？因为他是在用资产和他人的东西来负债，而不是用个人担保。他不是抵押自己的房子来购买这些公司。他是通过公司筹集债务来赚更多钱。所以如果你现在还不完全理解这些，这正是我希望你更深入钻研的地方。

Why? Because he has debt on assets and other people's things as opposed to personal guarantees on his own. He's not mortgaging his house to buy these companies. He is raising debt on a company in order for it to make more money. And so if you don't understand all that right now, that's where I want you to dive in a little bit more.

也许你可以从借记卡和信用卡开始了解。

Maybe you can start with a debit and a credit card.

是的，我认为理解债务非常重要。当你看到名人购买新房产时就会发现，他们是通过贷款购买的，即使他们有现金可用也不会全款支付——这种观念对很多人来说非常陌生。如果有人正在考虑创业或扩大业务，最常听到的借口就是'我没有钱，不知道如何融资'。那么实际创业到底需要多少资金呢？

Yeah, no I think it's so important to understand debt and you see that when you see a celebrity buy a new home and you realize they borrowed to buy that home, they didn't buy it in cash even though they have the cash and it's available to them and I think that idea is so foreign. So if someone's thinking about starting a business right now or wants to grow a business and the number one thing you hear is, well I don't have any money, I don't know how to fund it. How much do you actually need to start a business?

我认为你从来不会苦于缺钱，而是苦于缺乏获取资金的知识。世界上最富有的人从来不会完全用自己的钱买东西。如果你能好好思考一下这句话，就会真正意识到：此时此刻，你的周围到处都是交易机会，有大量资金正在等待最稀缺的资源——即那些愿意努力工作且知道如何有效运用资金的人。所以你其实不需要钱来创业，我认为根本不需要。

I think you never suffer from a lack of money, you suffer from a lack of knowledge on how to get money. The richest people in the world, they never use their own money entirely to buy things. And if you can like sit on that for a second and let that sit in, then I think you can really open up your eyes to the fact that all around you, there are deals right now and there is money that is waiting for the actually rarest of things, which is a human who wants to work really hard and has a good idea where to put the money. And so you actually don't need money to start a business. I don't think you need it at all.

你需要的是获得资金的渠道。下周我要去小企业管理局（SBA），他们刚刚推出了一系列针对新创业者的计划：一是提供补助金，直接给你资金（补助金意味着无需偿还，政府白给），可能因为你是少数群体/女性/核心需求行业；二是提供大量贷款支持。

What you need is some access to it. And so, you know, next week I'm going to the SBA, the Small Business Administration, And they just ran out all of these new programs for new business owners where they will one, do grants where they give you money. And grant means you take this money, you don't have to give it back, the government is going to give it to you. Maybe because you're a minority or a woman or have a core needs business. They also do a ton of loans.

如果你需要收购企业，他们可以贷款覆盖90%的收购价。我们周围还有很多人想要投资。比如有个叫Percent的网站，如果你经营小企业需要债务融资，可以直接通过网站为你的企业获得贷款。但最重要的不是具体操作，而是能否转变观念——要相信资金无处不在，致富不一定非要靠自己的钱。我希望能有更多人这样思考，虽然这确实不容易。

You know, they'll loan you 90% of the purchase price of a business if you need one. And all around us are also people who want to invest. And so like there's a website called Percent and on Percent, if you have a small business and you need some debt for a small business, you can actually get debt from your small business through a website. But I think the most important part is not just tactically, it's like can I change my belief to believe that money is all around me and I do not need to have only my own money in order to get rich and I want more people to think that way? It's hard.

我理解这种难度。

I get it.

你认为现在每个人都需要一份副业吗？

Do you think everyone needs a side hustle right now?

我有两个想法。第一，我不认为你必须全身心投入你人生想做的事情。我觉得这种说法来自那些有幸存者偏差的人——比如对我有效所以对你也会有效。但我们知道的事实是什么？在任何五年期内，90%的初创公司都会失败。

I have two thoughts. One, I do not believe that you have to go all in on the thing that you want to do in life. I think that is told to you by people who had survivorship bias like it worked for me so it's going to work for you. And what do we know to be true? Ninety percent of startups fail over any five year period.

所以我其实认为，想要创业又不想承担风险的方法就是：保住你的工作，在工作期间表现出色，用你的薪水来资助你的副业或下一个项目。持续推动副业发展，直到它能匹配你的生活成本和现金流，然后当业务有足够资金流入时，你再离开工作岗位去创业。我觉得我们向太多人美化了创业这个概念，而事实上，我自己就有三四个失败的项目。如果当初我辞掉那份收入不错的工作，现在可能就得睡别人沙发上了。所以你可以有副业，但请暂时把它当作副业，直到你确定它不仅仅是个激情项目，而是个盈利项目。

And so I actually think that the way to never have risk in building a business, if you wanna do a startup and have no risk, I think you keep your job, you do really well at that job while you're doing it, You use your salary to fund your side hustle or your next venture. You keep moving forward on it until your side hustle matches the cost of living that you have, your cash flow, and then you leave your business or your job to go start your business once you have enough money from inflow of the business. And I think we've told too many people and idealized this idea of entrepreneurship when in fact, you know, I had three or four businesses fail. If I had just left my job that paid me good money, I would have been sleeping on somebody's couch. And so you can have a side hustle but please keep it on the side for a minute until you make sure it's not just a passion project, it is a profit project.

是的，我认为这是最明智的建议。我也一样。当我开始做现在的事情时，我有一份全职工作。工资不算高，但足够维持生计，能支付我的账单。这意味着我不是在压力之下进行创作。

Yes, yeah and I think that's the smartest wisest advice. I'm in the same boat. When I started doing what I do today, I had a full time job. It didn't pay great, but it paid enough to get by, it paid my bills. It means I wasn't creating from a place of stress.

当你纯粹在压力下创造新事物时，可能会让人精疲力竭。当然，有时压力可以是最大的动力，它能推动你前进，成为你的发射台，但你需要把握好度。压力太大你会崩溃，压力太小你又会被金手铐困住。

And when you're creating something new from just stress, it can be quite debilitating. Now sometimes stress can be the greatest motivator, it can propel you, it can be your launch pad, but you've got to kind of get it right. Too much stress and you fall apart, too little stress and you stay in the golden handcuffs.

没错。

That's right.

我觉得这就是我看到很多人陷入困境的地方——我遇到很多人，感觉他们戴上了金手铐，却没有将其用作投资。就像是：我想用赚来的钱维持某种生活方式，而不是用它来建设新生活。这样说明白吗？

And I think that's where I see a lot of people stuck today is I meet a lot of people who I feel have tied on the golden handcuffs, but not using that as the investment. So it's like I wanna have a lifestyle with the money I make, I don't wanna use it to build a new life. Does that make sense?

是的。我的意思是，你知道，有很多数据实际上支持这一点——有一项研究是关于应该辞职创业还是应该保留工作边工作边创业？从数百名经历过这种情况的个体数据来看，告诉我们的是：如果你在创业时有收入来源，你创业成功的可能性会高出33%。因为当我们不处于战斗或逃跑状态时，当我们能够真正地向下调节时，我们会做出更好的决策。你对这一切都很了解。幸运的是，有很多像你所做的事情这样的工具，教人们如何向下调节，有时候你无法控制它。

Yes. Well, mean, and you know, there's a lot of data out there that actually backs there was a study that was done on should you leave your job to do a startup or should you stay in your job and do your start up at the side? And what the data tells us from hundreds of individuals that went through this is you have a 33% higher likelihood of your start up succeeding if you have an income source while you're doing it Because we make better decisions when we're not in flight or fight, when we can actually sort of downregulate. You know all about this. Thankfully, are so many tools like what you do that teach people how to downregulate and sometimes you can't control it.

但如果你能通过保持收入来源来控制你的决策变得更好，天哪，你为什么不这样做呢？因为在我看来，成为一名CEO真的就是三件事。如果你想成为一名伟大的CEO，第一，你必须能够销售一个如此宏大的梦想，以至于其他人才愿意加入你。他们认为在你的愿景下他们的视野会更广阔。第二，你必须做出出色的诊断。

But if you can control that your decision making is better by keeping an income source, oh my gosh, why wouldn't you? Because being a CEO is really, in my opinion, it's like three things. If you wanna be a great CEO, it is number one, you have to be able to sell a dream so big that other talent wants to come alongside you. They think that their vision is bigger under yours. Then number two, you have to make great diagnoses.

就像医生会做的那样，去理解世界上正在发生的事情的好坏，然后你必须在诊断的基础上做出伟大的决策。所以，如果你能招聘到优秀的人才，诊断得很好，但因为害怕而做出糟糕的决策，根据我的经验，这不会导致创业成功。

What's happening in the world around us just like a doctor would to understand what's good or bad and then you have to have great decision making on top of the diagnosis. And so if you can hire great talent, diagnose well but you make bad decisions because you're scared, that's not going to lead to a successful startup in my experience.

我我我非常喜欢CEO的这三大品质。我想问你相反的问题。是什么让一名员工变得出色，并作为一名员工赚更多的钱？

I I I love those top three qualities of a CEO. I wanted to ask you the opposite. What allows an employee to be great and make more money as an employee?

如果你想作为一名员工赚更多的钱，第一，你必须了解你今天为公司赚了多少钱。如果你不了解你为公司带来的价值金额是多少，你可能应该去和你的老板谈谈，说，嘿，我想了解我是如何为你赚钱的。如果你必须量化我是如何为你赚钱的，你能帮我理解一下吗？第一，你的老板会想，这太棒了。从来没有人问过我这个问题。

If you wanna make more money as an employee, number one, you have to understand how much money you make the company today. If you don't understand what your value dollar amount is you bring into your business, you should probably go talk to your boss and say, hey, I'd like to understand how I make you money. If you had to quantify how I make you money, could you help me understand that? One, your boss is gonna be like, this is amazing. Nobody's ever asked me this before.

然后第二，一旦你理解了这一点，你需要弄清楚我如何能为公司赚更多的钱。一旦你明白了如何能赚更多钱，你就可以说，嗯，你认为这个业务的利润是多少？如果我们带来100美元的销售额，我们能留下20美元吗？如果我弄明白了这一点，我就可以说，好吧。我为你赚了100美元。

And then two, once you understand that, you need to figure out how could I make more money for the company. Once you can understand how you can make more money, you can say, well, what do you think the profits of this business are? If we bring in a $100 sale, do we keep $20 of it? And if I figure that out, then I can go, okay. I made you a $100.

我们留下了其中的20美元。如果我做到了这一点，我能不能留下我为你带来的那20美元中的5美元？这样你就真正知道如何为你的薪水谈判了。很多时候，如果你在一家大公司工作，这并不总是可能的。但更多时候，对于那些懂得如何要求加薪的人来说，是有钱可加的，因为他们赚得了它。

We kept 20 of it. If I do that, could I keep five of that 20 I brought you? And then you actually know how to negotiate for your salary. And a lot of times, this isn't always possible if you're in a big corporate job. But more often than not, there is money available for those who understand how to ask for it because they've earned it.

我太喜欢这个了。那个逐步推进的过程非常精彩，因为你说得太对了。如果有人来找我说，我该怎么赚钱，怎么帮你赚更多钱？是的。天啊，这简直是最棒的事情，因为这常常被忽略，你没有意识到，而且就像你说的，可能有些公司不适合进行这种对话，但如今我觉得有太多空间可以建立这种联系了。

I love that. That step by step process is so brilliant because you're so right. If someone ever came up to me and said, how do I make money and how do I make you more money? Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's like the best thing ever because it's so often not thought about and you don't realize, and like you said, there may be certain companies where you can't have that conversation but today I feel like there's just so many more spaces to actually have that connection.

你确实可以。是的。你要从老板的角度想想。他们雇佣你是有原因的，因为他们认为你会让他们的生活更轻松，会让业务变得更好。我觉得很多时候，你在离开工作岗位之前，并没有充分获取你本可以获得的全部收益。

That you can. Yeah. You know, think about it from your boss's perspective. Like, they hired you for a reason because they thought that you would make their life easier and that you would make the business better. And I think a lot of times you leave your job before you get all of the money out of your job you could have.

我刚开始时就经常这样做。我认为，如果你觉得可以和老板沟通并说：老兄，这和我预想的不太一样。我觉得我在这方面也能发挥作用。我想在这里承担更多责任，也许那边少一点。你知道，我能不能在这里帮你赚更多钱？

And I did this so often in the beginning. I think you'd make way more money if you thought that you could have a conversation with your boss and say, man, this isn't exactly working how I thought it would be. I think I could be of use over here as well. I'd love some additional responsibility here, maybe less here. You know, could I make you more money over here?

如果我能在这里证明自己，我们能不能减少那边的工作？你常常是离开了已知的困境，却陷入了未知的困境。当这种情况发生时，我认为你实际损失的金钱会超出预期。过去，每次跳槽到下一份工作，你的收入大约会增加20%到25%。如今，我认为如果你留下来并主动诊断问题，而不是跳过并猜测，你实际可以更有价值地将薪水或总收入提高25%到50%。

If I prove myself here, could we do less here? You leave the devil that you know for the devil that you don't often. And when that happens, I think you'll actually lose more money than you anticipated. It used to be back in the day you you made about 20 to 25% more money every time you job hopped to the next job. These days, I actually think that there is a real value you can have to increase your salary or overall pay by more like 25 to 50 if you stay and you diagnose as opposed to you skip and then you guess.

是的。所以我强烈建议你不要像我职业生涯初期那样做，就是跳、跳、跳，从不给那个地方一个支付我更多薪水的机会。是的。因为他们可能愿意付更多。

Yes. And so I would highly recommend that you not do what I did at the beginning of my career, which was skip, skip, skip and never give the place a chance to pay me more. Yeah. Because they might want to.

绝对如此，当你跳过时，你真正错过的是谈判、向上管理、在该地方学习新技能和能力的机会。你说得太对了。这非常，我的意思是，你甚至说出这一点都显得很脆弱，因为你知道，你已经做得非常出色了，但这对于人们来说是一个很好的教训，因为为了那一点点额外的胡萝卜（不管它是什么），你跳过去了，但实际上却失去了技能。我最近构思了一个东西，还没有完全向我的团队展示，但我一直在整合关于如何做的内容，我知道你对此也有见解，所以我想和你分享我的想法，听听你的意见。我一直在构建一个框架，关于如何与我的团队谈论什么能帮助你在公司成长。

Absolutely and what you miss when you skip is you actually miss the skills of negotiating, up managing, learning new skills and abilities at that place. You're so right. And it's so, I mean, you're so vulnerable for even saying that because, you know, you've done so phenomenally well, but it's such a good lesson for people to understand because in the carrot of a couple of extra, whatever it may be, you're moving across but you're actually losing the skills. One thing I painted up recently, which I haven't fully presented to my team yet but it's been something I've been putting together for how, and I know you have something on this too so I wanna share mine with you to get your thoughts on it. I've been building this framework of how to talk to my team about what helps you grow at the company.

我使用了一个非常非常简单的类比和隐喻，从砌砖工开始。所以砌砖工通常是你刚入职时的级别，砌砖工知道我必须砌这块砖，必须把它砌在旁边那块旁边，我知道模式，我会砌砖，也许还能砌一堵墙。上一级是建造者。你实际上知道如何砌墙，如何粉刷墙壁，如何搭建脚手架，如何连接墙壁，你能做更多，你是一个建造者。再往上是我称之为建筑师的角色。

And I used a very, very simple analogy and metaphor of beginning at the bricklayer. So the bricklayer is usually at the level with which you come in and the bricklayer knows I have to lay this brick and I've got to lay it next to this one and I know the pattern and I can lay a brick and maybe I can build a wall maybe. The next level up is a builder. You actually know how to build a wall, you know how to paint the wall, you know how to put up scaffolding, you know how to connect walls, you can do a bit more and you're a builder. Above from that is something I call the architect.

现在建筑师不仅仅擅长砌墙，他们实际上能够为我构建并设计业务的新部分，某个事物的延伸，或是一个新想法。这就是我希望人们成长的方式。而我所达到的最高阶段是城市规划师。这个人不仅仅为我建造一座房屋，他们规划着整个生态系统的城市，让一切各得其所。我现在正与团队沟通这一点，因为我希望你们所有人都能从砌砖工成长为建造者，再到建筑师，最终成为城市规划师。

Now the architect is not just good at building a wall, they could actually go and build me and design me a new part of the business, an extension of something, a new idea. And that's how I want people to grow. And then the highest stage that I've come to is the city planner. This person's not just building me one home, they're planning the whole city of the ecosystem of how everything falls into place. And so I'm communicating this to my team now because I'm like, I want all of you to graduate from bricklayers to builders, to architects, to city planners.

而这正是与更多金钱挂钩的东西。它不是更多的努力，不是更多的工作，不是更忙碌，也不是做更多的事情。

And that is what's attached to more money. It's not more effort. It's not more work. It's not being more busy. It's not doing more stuff.

这些都伴随着不同类型的视野。它们带来不同的战略要素，带来更多的关怀，带来更广阔的视野。这不仅仅是关于，哦，我今年工作了更多时间或投入了更多时间。

These all come with a different type of vision. They come with a different strategic element. They come with more care. They come with a wider scope. It isn't just about, oh, but I worked more hours this year or I put in more time.

你没看到我付出了多少努力吗？我认为这些事情并不一定会为公司带来更多的成功。你对此有什么看法？

Didn't you see how much effort I put in? And I think those things don't necessarily result in more success for a company. What's your thoughts on that?

我认为这很完美。首先，你知道，我们都希望感觉在一个组织中能看到未来。我认为我们都想赚钱，但我们也真的想知道我们正在变得更好，并且想知道我们长期付出的所有辛勤工作将会得到回报。因此，如果你能向人们展示未来的愿景，我认为那是非常了不起的。我完全同意。

I think it's perfect. One, you know, we all want to feel like we can see a future at an organization. And I think we all wanna make money, but we also really wanna know that we're getting better and we wanna know that we're going to get rewarded for all the hard work we're gonna put in over the long term. And so if you can show people a vision for the future, I think that's incredible. I totally agree.

我们也这样谈论它，虽然这并不完全相同，因为砌砖工在许多方面和城市规划师一样重要。我们谈论它的方式之一叫做NPC阶梯。我们有点像是在谈论电子游戏，对吧？在电子游戏中，有NPC，这些角色基本上待在同一个地方，重复同样的话，比如，你知道，“找到龙，找到龙”。

We also talk about it as and this isn't quite the same because a bricklayer is in many ways just as important as the city planner. And so one of the way we talk about it is called the NPC ladder. And we sort of talk about you know how there are video games. Right? And in the video games, you have the NPCs which are sort of these people that sort of stay in the same spot and repeat the same things like, you know, find the dragon, find the dragon.

而且，有些人选择在大部分生活中停留在同一个位置，保持NPC的身份，不向游戏的每个级别迈进，在那里你接下来不是成为主角，你是配角，你知道，然后你可能是主角之一，再然后你可能是主人公，等等。因此，在我最优秀的执行者中，也就是那些最终可能获得最高报酬、甚至获得股权的人，他们是主角。这意味着他们实际上改变了剧本，推动了整个公司向前发展，所以我非常喜欢这一点。我认为，对我们大多数人来说，有句谚语说，人们离开的不是糟糕的工作，而是糟糕的领导者。所以我喜欢在我的公司里经常记住这一点，当有人离开时，那是对我和我团队的反映，说明他们没有看到自己成为城市规划师的道路，没有看到自己进入下一个级别的途径。

And, some people choose to kind of stay in the same spot and to stay as an NPC for much of their life and not to move to each level of the game where you become not the main character next, you're a supporting cast member, you know, and then you might be one of the main characters and then you might be the protagonist, etcetera. And so at the very top of my best performers where I say the people who will be paid the most maybe eventually get equity, well, they're they're the main characters. And that means that they actually change the script, they move forward the company overall, and so I love that. And I think, you know, for most of us, there's a saying that you don't leave bad jobs, you leave bad leaders. And so I like to try to remember that often in my companies that when somebody leaves, that's a reflection on me and my team that they didn't see a way for them to become a city planner and that they didn't see a way for them to come to the next level.

我确实经常思考这个问题。

I do think about that often.

这几乎就像是在验证所有这些都需要，但存在一个阶梯。是的。而且这个阶梯不仅仅是更多时间和更多工作。不。这常常是个误区。

It's almost like it's a validation of all of these are needed but there's a ladder. Yeah. And the ladder isn't just more time and more work. No. Which often is the mistake.

嗯，我觉得你说得非常对。我是说，如今有一种文化，一种忙碌文化，认为努力工作就等于财富，但这完全不是真的。随着时间的推移我们看到，如果努力工作就能致富，那我洗衣店的老板应该和杰夫·贝佐斯赚得一样多。我们都知道，有一个令人难以置信的视频——我记不清是谁做的了——它基本上展示了杰夫·贝佐斯在视频中的六十秒里，他在工厂里走动时每秒赚多少钱。它显示他每秒赚，比如说，我不知道，几百万美元。所以，在我的洗衣店老板拿起咖啡、喝进嘴里的时间里，杰夫·贝佐斯一年的收入已经远远超过他好多倍了。

Well, think you're really right. I mean today, I think there's a culture of, there's a hustle culture that happens about hard work will equal wealth and that is actually not true at all. And we have seen over time if hard work would equal wealth, the person who runs my laundromat would make just as much as Jeff Bezos. And we know, you know, there's an incredible video out there that I I can't remember who did it, but it basically shows for the sixty seconds that Jeff Bezos is in the video, how much money Jeff Bezos is making every single second as he walks around the factory. And it shows that he makes, let's say, I don't know, x millions of dollars per second And so by the time my laundromat owner has picked up his coffee, put it in his mouth, Jeff Bezos has already lapped him multiple times for the year.

这是为什么？杰夫并不比那些真正砌砖或清理屋顶的人工作更辛苦。所以我认为我们必须问自己，如果‘只要更努力’这个想法，你的职业道德是什么？这已经不再成立，尤其是在人工智能时代。你知道，我作为一个完全的普通人，越想人工智能——我不是什么科技大咖，在很多方面我几乎像科技文盲一样。

Now why? Jeff doesn't work as hard as the guy who's laying actual bricks or actually cleaning the roof. And so I think we have to ask ourselves if this idea of just work harder, what's your work ethic? That's not true anymore, especially in the age of AI. You know, the more I I think about AI as a total normie, I'm not a big tech person, I'm almost like boomer incapable in many ways with tech.

但我越想越觉得，它将使我们所有人都拥有海量知识。而因为我们都有海量知识，我们实际上必须表现得更好，因为每个人都能做到中等水平的执行。很少有人能在喧嚣中脱颖而出，而我们已经看到今年在线创作者数量增加了47%。为什么？因为现在太容易了，砰、砰、砰，就放到网上了。

But the more I think about it, the more I think it will enable all of us to have massive knowledge. And because we'll all have massive knowledge, we will actually have to perform better because everybody will be able to do a mid level execution. Very few people will be able to stand out amongst the noise, and we're already seeing this 47% increase in creators just this year online. So why? Because it's so much easier now to go bang, bam, boom, put it on the Internet.

所以那将无处不在。嗯。这意味着，未来仅仅做更多、仅仅更努力地工作不会改变什么。那什么会？花点时间看看我知道什么与众不同的东西，如何增加我的知识储备，以及在一个缺乏创意但大规模生产的世界里，我如何变得真正有创造力。

So that's gonna be everywhere. Mhmm. Which means that going forward, just doing a lot more, just working a lot harder won't be what changes it. What will? Taking a moment to look at what do I know different than anybody else, how do I increase my knowledge stack, and how do I get really creative in a world of lack of creativity but mass production.

所以我喜欢引用拉瓦坎特的话，在当今世界，你不想像牛一样工作。你不想像这样不停地持续吃草。你想成为狮子。你想要有冲刺和休息的周期。冲刺和休息。

And so I love to involve Ravakant's line, was in this world today, you don't want to work like a cow. You don't wanna work continuously sort of grazing nonstop like this. You wanna be the lion. You wanna have periods of sprint and rest. Sprint and rest.

而这正是顶尖人士会做的事。

And that will be what the top performers do.

是的，完全正确。说得太好了。被动收入是个神话吗？

Yeah. Absolutely. So well said. Is passive income a myth?

嗯，收入是一个税务报表上的概念。所以像被动收入与主动收入这样的实际术语，在政府层面是真实存在的。但被动收入是否意味着我什么都不做，只需承担一定风险和投入一定资金就能赚钱？不，那完全是个谎言。

Well, income is a tax statement. So like the actual words passive income versus active income are real per the government. But is passive income in the fact that I will make money if I do nothing and I take x amount of risk and x amount of my money in order to do something? No. That's a total lie.

而且我认为，任何告诉你这将是完全被动收入的人，都是一个危险信号，立即的危险信号。我的意思是，我拥有很多自动售货机。自动售货机常被人们称为被动收入。让我告诉你自动售货机哪里不被动：它们总是坏。

And I think anybody who tells you that this will be completely passive income, there's a red flag, immediate red flag. I mean, I own a bunch of vending machines. Vending machines are often something people call passive income. Let me tell you what's not passive, a vending machine. They break all the time.

有人会撬开它们。每台机器赚的钱并不多。而且，总的来说，它们能赚很多钱，一旦你拥有成百上千台，它们在很多方面都很棒。但被动收入这种东西是不存在的。一旦你明白了这一点，我想你也能认识到，比如，你真的想要被动收入吗？

People break into them. They don't make that much money per machine. And, also, they make a ton of money on aggregate, and they're great for many things, once you have hundreds of them or or thousands. But there's no such thing as passive income. And once you know that, I think you also can recognize, like, do you want passive income?

那是你真正想要的吗？还是你只是想要一份你热爱、报酬丰厚、能点燃你内心激情的工作？我认为我们想要被动收入是因为我们讨厌自己所做的事情。因为87%的美国人不喜欢他们的谋生方式，不喜欢他们的同事，所以他们为什么还想做更多呢？请给我被动收入吧。

Is that what you really want? Or do you just want a job that you love, that pays you well, that like lights that fire inside of you? I think we want passive income because we hate what we do. Cause 87% of Americans don't like what they do for a living, they don't like who they work with and so why would they want to do more of it? Please give me passive income.

但我不认为那实际上是我们想要的。我们只是想要一些真正能触动我们内心的东西。

But I don't think that's actually what we want. We just want something that really speaks to us.

在我们深入下一个环节之前，先来听听赞助商的信息。随着天气转凉、白昼变短，我总是想把家布置得更温馨舒适。秋天的某种特质让你放慢脚步，点燃蜡烛，营造一个温暖宜人的空间。说实话，Wayfair就是我实现这一目标的首选。Wayfair提供打造舒适家居所需的一切。

Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. As the weather cools down and the days get shorter, I always find myself wanting to make my home feel cozier. There's something about fall that makes you slow down, light a candle, and create a space that feels warm and inviting. And honestly, Wayfair is where I go to make that happen. Wayfair is everything you need to cozify your home.

无论是蜷缩休息的舒适躺椅、寒冷夜晚的柔软床品，还是增添季节气息的秋日装饰。他们甚至还有意式咖啡机，让你在厨房就能制作心爱的拿铁。我最近为阅读角添置了一条舒适盖毯和一盏柔光台灯，瞬间改变了空间氛围，恍若一方小小避风港。

Whether it's a comfy recliner to curl up in, soft bedding for those chilly nights, or even autumn inspired decor to bring in the season. They even have espresso makers so you can make that cafe latte you love right in your kitchen. For me, I recently picked up a cozy throw blanket and a low lit lamp for my reading corner. It transformed the space instantly. Suddenly, feels like a little sanctuary.

我喜爱Wayfair提供多样风格和价位的选择，外加免费便捷的配送服务。现在正是为秋季布置家居的最佳时机，让你轻松舒适地享受这个季节。通过Wayfair精心策划的平价秋季焕新系列打造温馨家居，从舒适躺椅到温馨床品与秋日装饰。登录wayfair.com发现更多优惠选择。网址wayfair.com。

I love that Wayfarer's options for every style and budget, plus free and easy delivery. Now really is the best time to get your home ready for fall, so you can enjoy the season with ease and comfort. Cozify your home with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates, From comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor. Find it all for way less at wayfair.com. That's wayfair.com.

Wayfair，百样风格，万家之选。我是《On Purpose》的杰·谢蒂，如果你曾感到迷失自我，试着改变环境吧，哪怕只有几天。达美航空近期邀请四位创作者进行了这样的体验。

Wayfair. Every style, every home. This is Jay Shetty from On Purpose, and if you've ever felt like you've lost touch with yourself, try changing your surroundings. Even for just a few days. Delta recently invited four creators to do just that.

两段旅程，一个命题：如果旅行不仅是移动，更是行进中的自我充电呢？在西雅图，他们专注于规律作息与自我关怀：健身时光、接地气的散步和冥想。在哥本哈根，他们放飞自我：骑行、桑拿、拥抱当下。最令他们惊讶的是什么？

Two trips, one question: What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? In Seattle, they focused on routine and self care. Gym time, grounding walks, and meditation. In Copenhagen, they let go biking, saunas, and embracing the moment. And what surprised them most?

日常压力逐渐消散。他们感到更清醒、更平静、更融入当下。Aura智能指环的数据也印证了这一点——根据睡眠评分，每个人都以更充沛的状态迎接新日，身体活动量也在不经意间增加。

Their usual stress faded. They felt clearer, calmer, more connected. And auraing data backed it up. Based on their auraing sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested. And their bodies moved more, without even trying.

旅行为他们提供了践行自我关怀的空间，不是限制，而是平衡。最妙的是？这种幸福感并未随着归家而消失。与达美同行，飞享更美好人生。完整旅程请关注达美航空YouTube频道。

Travel gave them space to practice self care, and not restriction, but balance. And the best part? That sense of well-being didn't end when they got home. With Delta, fly and live better. Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel.

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今年秋季，潘多拉护身符开启大胆新篇章，致敬古币与现代自我表达的力量。每一款潘多拉护身符都将永恒符号转化为深刻个人化、富有意义的宣言。正面饰有心形、蛇、月亮和星辰等充满力量的图案，各自承载丰富的象征意义。背面镌刻拉丁文智慧箴言，邀您沉思、立志、汲取力量，让每一枚潘多拉护身符成为触手可及的初心提醒。采用质感饰面与天然瑕疵设计，每件作品都充满生命力，如同贴近心口佩戴的故事，满载历史与意义。

fall, Pandora Talisman opens a bold new chapter, a tribute to ancient coins and the power of modern self expression. Each Pandora talisman transforms timeless symbols into deeply personal, meaningful statements. On the front, you'll discover powerful motifs like hearts, snakes, moons, and stars, each carrying its own rich symbolism. On the back, engraved Latin words of wisdom invite moments of reflection, intention, and strength, making every Pandora talisman a tactile reminder of what matters most. Designed with textured finishes and organic imperfections, each piece feels alive, like a story worn close to the heart, full of history and meaning.

它们是记忆、韧性与个人真理的载体，体现着塑造自我身份与立场的核心价值。无论是单独佩戴还是叠戴于潘多拉项链与手链，潘多拉护身符以独特方式助您表达人生旅程，颂扬自我身份，每日勇敢而优雅地讲述专属故事。潘多拉护身符系列「生活箴言」现已于门店及pandora.net官网发售。回到节目话题——你认为人们能既追求热爱之事又赚大钱吗？还是这两者本质脱节？

They're carriers of memory, resilience, and personal truth, embodying the values that shape who you are and what you stand for. Whether worn alone or layered together on Pandora necklaces and bracelets, Pandora talismans offer a unique way to express your journey, celebrate your identity, and tell your story boldly and beautifully every day. Pandora Talisman, Words To Live By, now available in store and online at pandora.net. And back to our episode. Do you think people can do what they love and make a lot of money or are those ideas disconnected?

我认为任何劝你'追随激情才能赚钱'的人，自己恐怕早已财富自由。这种说法听起来确实动听。所以他们自然会说：当然要追随激情。但即便像我们俩都认识的Airbnb创始人——你与他们关系比我更近些。

I think that anybody tells you you should follow your passion in order to make money is probably already rich. And it sounds really nice actually. And so they're like, of course, follow your passion. Well, even somebody like we both know some of the founders of Airbnb. You're closer with them than I am.

比如奥斯汀的乔，他会说初创Airbnb时充满激情。但他当时真会对地垫床铺的家居设计抱有热情吗？显然不是。他的热情何在？他发现了自己痴迷的竞技游戏——商业这场游戏。

But, you know, Joe in Austin, he would say that he was incredibly passionate when he started Airbnb. But was he, like, passionate about, I don't know, home design of his, you know, mattress on the floor? Like, no. What was he passionate about? He found some game that he loved to play in the game of business.

换成照明公司、油漆公司或Airbnb其实都可以。他学会了热爱这场游戏。所以人们的误区在于：应该学会热爱游戏本身，而非执着于原有激情。我们总试图将绘画、水下编篮之类奇特爱好转化为利润，这正是彻底走偏的方向。

And it probably could have been a lighting company that he had or a painting company or Airbnb. He just learned to love the game. So where I think people get it wrong is learn to love the game. Don't try to obsess on your passions. We try to turn like painting that we do or underwater basket weaving or whatever our weird hobby is into our profits and that's where you go really, really wrong.

事实上大量数据支持这点。我们有个'枯燥-光鲜矩阵'，本质上是带图表的两条线，显示行业越枯燥收入越高。尤其在好莱坞，有项惊人研究显示：演员工会SAG AFTRA的18.7万名会员中，超过80%达不到医疗保险资格线——意味着他们收入甚至不够申请医保。洛杉矶演员平均年收入仅2.3万美元左右。

In fact, there's a lot of data to support this. I mean, we have something called the boring sexy matrix that essentially it it kinda looks like, you know, two lines and then a charted graph that shows you the more boring the industry, the higher the income. And so especially in Hollywood, in fact, there's an incredible study that shows in SAG AFTRA, the Hollywood union, there's a 187, I believe, a 187,000 members of this union. And of those, more than 80% of them do not qualify for health insurance, which means that they don't make enough money to even qualify for health insurance. The average income is like $23,000 for an actor in LA.

那么这说明了什么？当你想要成为克鲁尼那样的人，或者想要成为著名的布拉德·皮特时，大多数人是赚不到钱的。你远不如进入金融行业，那里99%的人100%的收入来自工作，而在演艺行业，似乎只有不到20%的人完全靠这份工作谋生。嗯。我并不是要劝阻任何人去做你热爱的事情。

And so what does that tell you? When you want to try to be a Clooney or you want to try to be, you know, a famous Brad Pitt, most people make no money from it. You'd be way better off going to finance where 99% of the people earn a 100% of their income from their job than in acting in which it appears that less than 20% of people make their full income from this job. Mhmm. And I'm not, like, trying to dissuade anybody from doing things that you love.

我可能只是想推动你思考：我怎样才能在这方面更有创造力？是的。如果我热爱表演，在表演领域有哪些赚钱的途径是我可以去抓住并同时将两者结合起来的？但它必须是这种预先注定的光鲜角色吗？我认为答案是否定的。

I might just be pushing you to even say, how could I be more creative about this? Yeah. If I love to act, where is there money around the world of acting that I could go grab and still integrate the two? But does it have to be this preordained sexy role? I think the answer is no.

你就是一个完美的例子，播客就是这样诞生的。你知道，就像那些可能想要拥有脱口秀、想要采访别人的人，我们说我们可以在这里做，而不是在演播室，结果你改变了整个行业。

You're a perfect example of it, that's how podcasts were born. You know, it was like these people who wanted to maybe have talk shows, who wanted to interview people, and we said we could do it here instead of a studio and you change an entire industry.

我过去非常想要一档脱口秀，这个例子太好了，我——是的，就像那样，你知道，我是看着奥普拉的节目长大的，是她的忠实粉丝。我当时想，能与人坐下来做一档脱口秀等等该有多酷？然后你意识到没人会给你一档脱口秀，而且除非你的脱口秀非常非常重要，否则没人能赚到可观的钱，也没人会给你一档节目。这就是现实。成功的日间脱口秀主持人可能只有三个，成功的深夜脱口秀主持人也许也只有三个。

I wanted a talk show so bad, Such a good example and I Yeah, love like that was, you know, I grew up watching Oprah, big fan. And I was like, how cool would it be to sit down with people and to have a talk show and all the rest of it? And then you realize no one's giving you a talk show and unless your talk show is really, really significant, no one's making any significant money and no one's giving you a talk show. That's the reality of it. There's only ever like three daytime talk show hosts that are successful and maybe three late night talk show hosts that are successful.

然后其他所有人，就像你说的，和表演行业一样，97%、99%的人都没有那个机会。当你做你热爱的事情时，比如，我热爱采访吗？是的，我热爱。但我喜欢你做的那个区分，因为我认为爱好和技能之间是有区别的。所以，你刚刚说到了，你 literally 刚刚说到了。

And then everyone else, like you said, same as acting, 97% of people, 99% of people don't have that. And when you do what you love, like, so do I love interviewing? Yes, I do. But I love the distinction you made because I think there's a difference between a hobby and a skill. So, and you just said it, you literally just said it.

所以我热爱足球。足球是我的初恋。它是我最爱的爱好之一。我喜欢谈论它，喜欢踢球，喜欢玩FIFA，在PlayStation、Xbox上，随便什么平台都行。但如果我试图成为一名职业足球运动员，那是绝无可能发生的。

So I love soccer. Soccer is my first love. It's one of my favorite hobbies. I love talking about it, I like playing it, I like FIFA, like on the PlayStation, Xbox, whatever I'm in. If I tried to become a soccer player, it would never have happened.

因为我水平不够，差得远呢。当然，我本可以想办法进入教练行业或者别的什么。但说实话，它是一项爱好。是我喜欢和朋友谈论的事情。它不一定非得是我用来赚钱的东西，或者是我奉献给世界的核心产品。

Like I'm not good enough, not even close. And sure I could have found a way to maybe get into coaching or maybe whatever. But to be honest, it's a hobby. It's something I love talking to my friends about. That doesn't have to be the thing that I monetize or that I build into my offering to the world.

我特别喜欢这个区分，因为我觉得当我们听到‘激情’这个词时，常常会把爱好和技能混淆。然后你会想，等等不对，我的爱好是绘画——但说实话，我画得并不是最好的。我以前从没听人这么清晰地阐述过这一点，这个澄清非常难得。

And I love the difference because I think when we hear the word passion, we confuse hobby for skills. And then you go, wait a minute, no, my hobby is painting. I'm not the best painter, let me be honest. And I think I've never heard someone say that before. I've never heard that clear clarification.

所以感谢你把这个道理讲得如此透彻。

So thank you for making that crystal clear.

是的，这真的很深刻。我记得在迈克尔·戴尔的书里看到过——应该是他的书。有人问他为什么想要收回公司控制权，因为当时公司差点被夺走。他和另一个大投资者起了争执，有人就问他：你都已经是亿万富翁了，为什么还这么在乎戴尔公司？

Yeah, it's really, you know, I heard Michael Dell, think it was in Michael Dell's book. He said, somebody was asking him why he wanted to take his company back because he had kind of had it pulled away from him. Him and another big investor basically got into the scuffle and somebody was asking him, why do you still care about Dell? You're a billionaire many times over. You're super successful.

为什么不放手呢？他说：就算我死了也会继续关心这家公司。他热爱这个游戏，对戴尔的执着程度堪称至死不渝。我经常想起这句话。

Why don't you just let this go? And he says, I will care about this company after I am dead. He loves the game. He was so obsessed with Dell that you couldn't pry it out of his cold dead hands. And I think about that often.

我觉得，无论给我多少钱都不可能让我退休。为什么？虽然创业这场游戏很多时候残酷到让我怀疑人生——我完全不必继续坚持，为什么还要做下去？

I think, you know, you couldn't make me retire no matter how much money you gave me. Why? Are there many days where the game of entrepreneurship is so brutal that I do think, what am I doing? I don't have to keep doing this. Why do I do it?

因为我热爱这场游戏。

But I love the game.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为如果我们能让更多年轻人爱上这个游戏，他们就会意识到这是有机会时能做的最有趣的事情。是的。这也是你判断自己是否在做对的事情的方式。就像著名的例子，当两位史蒂夫——史蒂夫·乔布斯和史蒂夫·沃兹尼亚克——刚开始创业时。他们当时在雅达利公司，我想就是那家公司。

And I think if we can instill in more young people a love for the game, then they will realize that it is the most fun thing that you can do when you get a chance. Yeah. And that's also how you know if the thing you're doing is what you should be doing. Like famously, when the two Steve, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, were first starting out. They were at I think it was Atari, the company that they were at.

总之，他们在另一家科技公司。然后

Anyway, they're at another tech company. And

是雅达利吗？

Was Atari?

是的，就是雅达利。乔布斯——你记得那个故事吗？乔布斯说：我来这里工作的唯一条件就是我也能睡在这里。创始人，像正常创始人可能会做的那样，觉得这很奇怪，就拒绝了。

Yeah. It was. And Jobs do you remember the story where Jobs, said, the only way that I'm coming to work here is if I can sleep here too. And the founder, as a normal founder probably would do, was like, that's weird. No.

他说不能这样做。但他意识到他们太优秀了。他们如此痴迷，以至于他们的卓越表现意味着他应该允许他们特立独行，所以他让他们留下来了，虽然这有点问题，因为我听说史蒂夫有点味道。但顶尖表现者其实就是那些对游戏痴迷的人。你不需要有惊人的智商。

You can't do that. But he realized that they were so good. They were so obsessed that their outperformance meant that he should let them be weird, and so he let them stay there, which was like a little problematic because I hear Steve was a little smelly. But like top performers are really just people who are obsessed with the game. It's not that you have to have crazy IQ.

你也不需要拥有惊人的技能组合。很难击败那种由痴迷带来的复利效应。我认为这应该让一些人意识到，你可以赢。如果你对某件事比我们更痴迷，你甚至可以击败杰伊和科迪。

It's not that you have to have a crazy skill set. It's really hard to beat the compounding thing that is obsession. And I think that should open up for some people a realization that you could win. You could beat a Jay and a Cody if you're more obsessed with something than we are.

哦，当然。我学到的是，要爱上这个游戏，你必须尊重规则。哦。我发现，这就像玩大富翁，大家都知道大富翁，我就以它为例。就像玩大富翁一样。

Oh, for sure. And what I've learned is that in order to love the game, you have to respect the rules. Oh. And what I found, it's like playing Monopoly, everyone knows Monopoly so I'll use that as an example. It's like playing Monopoly.

你知道必须集齐三套同色地块才能建造房屋。一旦你在一条街上建了四栋房屋，就可以升级为酒店。这就是大富翁的游戏规则。现在你和一些人玩，他们会说，我不喜欢这样。我只想有一套就能建造，或者为什么我必须建四栋房屋才能建酒店？

You know you have to have a three set in order to build homes. Once you build four homes on one street, you can then upgrade it for a hotel. That is the rule of how monopoly works. Now you play with some people and they'll say, well I don't like that. I just want be able to build on even if I have one of the sets or why do I have to build four houses to build a hotel?

我应该直接就能建酒店。我在现实生活中也看到这种情况，我们开始说类似这样的话：我不喜欢社交媒体算法，因为它不公平。确实不公平，但这就是规则。所以如果我们讨厌规则，就不可能热爱这个游戏。我反复看到这种情况，人们会说：杰，但这不公平、不对，或者应该这样改，或者提出新想法。

I should just be able to build a hotel. And I see this in real life too, where we start saying things like, well, I don't like the social media algorithm because it's not fair. And it's like, it isn't fair, but it is the rule. And so if we hate the rules, you can't love the game. And I see that over and over again where it's like, well Jay, but this isn't fair or this isn't right or it should be like this or new thing.

我理解这种感受。我实际上很同情这种想法，也认可你的感受。我也有同感，但要想热爱这个游戏，就必须尊重规则。所以你要弄清楚规则，就像你弄懂了自动售货机的规则，弄懂了你所创建的不同企业的规则一样。

And I'm like, I get it. Like I actually empathize with that and I validate you. I feel the same way but in order to love the game, have to respect the rules. And so figure out the rules that you've figured out the rules of vending machines. You figured out the rules of different businesses that you've built.

一旦你了解了规则，你就可以像玩大富翁一样玩游戏。我认为这就是关键。那么，你认为有哪些有趣的企业规则，或者商业乃至金钱方面的一般规则，是人们需要学会尊重的？

And once you know the rules, you can play the game just like monopoly. And I think that's what it takes. So what would you say are the rules of some interesting businesses or even business in general or money that you think people need to learn to respect?

我认为如今要想成功，首要规则是：世界上其实有两种人。一种人会非常成功，另一种人除非改变心态，否则永远不会成功。我们称这两种人为‘解决问题者’和‘搭便车者’。解决问题者是这样的人：想象一下，有一艘漏水的船，对吧？

I think the number one rule if you wanna be successful today is that there's really there's two type of people. One type of person will be really successful and one type of person will never be successful until they change their mentality. And and we call these fixers verse freeloaders. A fixer is somebody who, if you imagine, there's a leaky boat. Right?

船上到处都是洞。解决问题者会开始积极思考：好吧，我们这里有些腻子，可以补在这里，我们还要开始从那边舀水出去。

And there's all these holes in it. The fixer will be the one that starts actively thinking, okay. We've got some, you know, putty over here. We're gonna put it on here. We're actually gonna start bailing things out over there.

他们意识到存在问题。这个问题很烦人，可能不是他们造成的，甚至完全可能是别人的错。然而，他们会怎么做呢？

They realize that there's a problem. The problem is annoying. They probably didn't create the problem. The problem might actually be somebody else's fault entirely. And yet, what do they do?

他们立刻进入固定模式。然后还有搭便车者。我们可能都有一点这种成分。但如今搭便车者太常见了。搭便车者就是站在船上的人，他们可能会说，嗯，你知道，我不介意这些漏洞，或者那是别人的问题，或者我没时间修理那个，或者我真的不知道该怎么做。

They immediately go into fixed mode. And then there's the freeloader. And we can all have a little component of this. But a freeloader is so common today. The freeloader is the one that's standing in the boat and they might be saying, well, you know, I don't mind the holes, or that was somebody else's issue, or I don't have time to fix that, or I don't really know what to do about that.

如果你一生都抱着这种搭便车的心态，认为总会有人来解决问题，那么别人就会一直获利。我真的有

And if you go through your life with this freeloader mentality of somebody else will fix it all the time, well then somebody else will profit all the time. I've really had

这个对吧？

this right?

我我我最近意识到，每次我在生意上发现问题，那就是利润所在。每次我在生活中遇到问题，那就是金钱所在。

I I I've had this realization lately that every time I find a problem in my business, that's where the profit is. Every time I have a problem in my life, that's where the money is.

哦，说得太好了。

Oh, that's so good.

所以，当我遇到一个棘手的大问题时，如果我能不再感到胃里下沉，而是说，哦，这意味着那里有钱，那里有机会，那里有成长，那么我的世界观就会有所改变。你知道当我们进来时，我们只是在聊天，我当时想，天啊，我这周过得真够呛，因为我有一个生意，我们增长得非常快，这听起来很酷，但当你增长得非常快时，就会出现所有这些问题。有人事问题，有业务问题，所以我现在正深陷其中。然而，我总是试着让自己回过头来说，我们走到这一步是我的错，这实际上非常解放。因为如果是我的错，那意味着我也许能够解决它。

And so if I can just start not having that sinking feeling in my stomach when I find a big hairy problem and instead say, oh, that means there's money there, that means there's opportunity there, that means there's growth there, then my world view kind of changes. And you know when we came in here, we were just talking and I was like, oh god, I'm having a week because I you know I got this one business and we're growing really fast and that sounds cool except that when you grow really fast, there's all these issues. There's people issues and there's business issues and so I'm in it right now. And yet, I always try to make myself go back and say, it's my fault that we're here and that actually is really liberating. Because if it's my fault, that means that I also might be able to fix it.

如果是别人的错，那我该怎么办？所以尽可能多地做一个解决问题的人，而不是搭便车者，这就是金钱所在。

If it's somebody else's fault, then what what am I gonna do about it? And so as often as possible be a fixer not a freeloader, it's where the money is.

我真的很喜欢这一点，而且无论你是团队合作者、员工、老板，还是在寻找新机会，这都适用。这就是我如此热爱它的原因，因为你可以身处一个团队中思考：我的CEO最大的痛点在哪里？我的经理最大的痛点在哪里？如果我能解决这个问题并且我们对此有清晰的认识，那可能就是我职业生涯成长的最大机会。

I really like that and that's true whether you're a team player, whether you're an employee, whether you're the owner, whether you're looking at a new opportunity, it's true for everyone. That's why I love it so much because you could be on a team and going, well, where is my CEO's greatest pain point? Where is my manager's greatest pain point? And if I can solve that and we're clear on it, that could be the greatest opportunity for me to grow my career.

百分之百同意。你知道，如果你真的想成长并赚大钱，我认为你能做的最棒的事情之一就是去找一个你向往并喜欢其发展轨迹的领导团队和领导者。我的意思是，你应该尽可能多地搭乘火箭飞船，并且要远离那种像家长教师协会妈妈巴士一样安稳的环境。在生活中，我们往往想要平稳的旅程，想要确定的路线，想要自动滑门，想要坐在舒适的小型货车上。但我们意识到，货车跑不快，而且很可能赢不了比赛。

A 100%. You know, and if you really want to grow and earn a lot, think I one of the greatest things that you can do is go find a leadership team and a leader that you think you wanna be like and that you like their trajectory. I mean, I think you should try to get on as many rocket ships as you can and you should really stay away from like the PTA mom bus. You know, in life, I think often we want the smooth ride, we want the certain ride, we want the sliding doors, we want to be on a little nice little minivan. And what we realized is that minivans don't go fast and minivans will probably not be the winner of a race.

但胜利伴随着所有奖品。所以我认为只要有可能，你就应该尝试登上火箭飞船。而当你登上火箭飞船时，你必须意识到火箭飞船会有颠簸。它们不稳定，但速度极快。

But winning comes with all the prizes. So I think wherever you can, you should try to get on the rocket ships. And then when you get on the rocket ship, you got to realize rocket ships have turbulence. They're bumpy. They go fast.

东西会坏掉。当你想成为一名宇航员，而上升途中遇到 turbulence（湍流）时，你不能感到惊讶。所以，你知道，我认为在我职业生涯早期有两件事我没有足够早地做到：天哪，我真应该更快地尝试登上更多火箭飞船。颠簸、混乱、大问题，哦天哪，但我们要去月球了。而且我应该远离那种非常非常平稳的普通妈妈巴士生活，因为当我年轻的时候，哥们，我不需要这个。

Things break. You can't be surprised when you want to be an astronaut and there's turbulence on the way up. And so, you know, I think there's two things that I didn't do early enough on in my career was gosh, I really should have tried to get on more rocket ships fast. Bumpy, messy, big problems, oh my gosh, but we're going to the moon. And I should stay away from the normal, you know, mom bus life that's super super smooth because when I'm young, man, I don't need this.

等我有了孩子，有了一大堆责任之后，我才需要这种平稳。但在开始时，我应该尝试抓住所有我能抓住的机会。所以，如果我还年轻且充满渴望，我会努力寻找一个J（指代机会或人物），我会努力寻找那些正在前进的团队，并想向他们学习。

I need this once I got kids and once I got a bunch of responsibilities but in the beginning, I should be trying to take all the rides I can. And so if I was young and hungry, I would be trying to find a J, I would be trying to find teams where they are moving and I want to learn from them.

是的，这建议太棒了。我回顾过去，也觉得自己当时有同样的精神，但可能没有足够地去寻找那样的人。我很幸运地遇到了几个例子，而且我记得无论如何这都有可能发生。我记得我曾经在杂货店工作，你知道，整理货架之类的，但我总是在努力寻找机会：周末可以拿一倍半的工资，节假日也可以拿一倍半。如果我多工作几个小时，就能赚更多，你总是在试图弄清楚规则是什么，就像我之前说的。我认为你说得非常对，如果你能加入一个你的角色没有明确定义的地方，你就有机会做很多事情。

Yeah, it's such great advice and I look back and I think as well that I had that same spirit then and I probably didn't seek out people like that enough. I got lucky with a couple of examples and I remember it could happen anyway. I remember being, I used to work at a grocery store and you know, stacking shelves and whatever but I was always trying to find that on a weekend you can make a time and a half, on a holiday you can make time and a half. If I worked a few extra hours you'd make, you know, you always trying to figure out what the rules are as I was saying earlier. And I think you're spot on that if you can jump on a place where your role is not perfectly defined, you get to do lots of stuff.

你能够承担更多。当我在埃森哲（一家全球咨询公司，现在全球有百万员工，我在那里时是50万）工作时，他们有一个非常棒的设置：每年要求你学习一项专业技能、一项个人技能，以及一项你只是着迷的技能。这真的很有趣，因为它总是鼓励你需要这三项技能。我喜爱那家公司的这一点，因为它几乎像是在问：你的课外活动是什么？

You get to take more on. When I was at Accenture, which is a global consulting firm, million employees now globally, it used to be 500,000 when I was there. They actually had this really great setup where every year they asked you to learn one professional skill, one personal skill, and then one skill that you were just fascinated by. And it was really interesting because it was always encouraged that you needed all three. And I loved that about the workplace because it was almost like, what's your extracurricular?

所以你白天有正职工作，但晚上做什么呢？我在公司的晚间工作是教冥想。这样我就把我的热情带到了工作中。它带来了什么好处呢？它帮助我拓展人脉，帮助我更深入地与人建立联系，帮助我了解公司的不同部门，如果我不教冥想的话，我永远不可能接触到这些。

So you did your day job, but what did you do in the evenings? So my evening job at my company was teaching meditation. So I was bringing my passion into work. What did it do? It helped me network more, helped me connect with people deeper, helped me learn about different parts of the company that I would never have got to see if I wasn't teaching meditation.

我有个朋友在工作之外是摄影师。我们白天是顾问，但他把摄影带到了工作中。他会拍摄所有重大活动，给我们CEO拍头像照，给CMO拍头像照。

I had a friend who was a photographer outside of work. We were consultants by day, but he brought photography into work. He would photograph all the major events. He'd take headshots of our CEO. He'd take headshots of our CMO.

突然间，他在公司内部建立人脉的方式是你以前从未有过的。所以当你承担基于热情的新责任时——即使是在工作场所——也很有趣，因为你永远不知道它们会带你走向何方。

All of a sudden he's networking inside the company in a way that you never would before. And so it's so interesting when you take on new responsibilities which are based on your passions even in the workplace because you never know where they can go.

哦，没错。而且，对于那些对自己谋生之事充满极度热情的人来说，他们身上有种极具感染力的东西。我是说，很多研究都表明人类是会相互感染的。前几天读到一篇文章说，如果你想赚更多钱，最快的方法其实就是看你身边围绕的是谁。所以实际上，如果你有更多朋友年收入超过10万美元，你赚更多钱的几率会增加10%，投资更多的几率也会提高，我记得大概在2.9%到5%之间。

Oh yeah. And there's something really contagious about somebody who is hyper passionate with the things that they do for a living. I mean, so many studies that show that humans are contagious. You know, was reading something the other day that said, if you wanna make more money, the fastest way you can do it is actually just by who you surround yourself with. And so there is actually a correlation between if you have more friends who make over a $100,000, you have a 10% increased likelihood of making more money and somewhere between a 2.9, I believe, and a 5% higher likelihood of investing more.

这就好比杰伊还是那个杰伊，科迪还是那个科迪，但我如果和几个更有钱的人混在一起，我就开始赚更多钱、投资更多，这太疯狂了。但仔细想想，这完全说得通。假设你想减肥，你会怎么做？你是去和一群整天聚会、吃宵夜、不停喝酒、睡懒觉、因此更懒散的人混在一起，还是去和那些不喝酒、每天锻炼、已经有六块腹肌的CrossFit爱好者混在一起？杰伊是同一个人，科迪也是同一个人。

This is just like Jay stays the same, Cody stays the same, but I hang out with a few people who have more cash, I start making more money and investing more, that's wild. But if you think about it, it makes all the sense in the world. Imagine you wanted to lose weight and so what did you do? You went and hung out with a bunch of people who partied all the time, who ate late night food, who were drinking constantly, who slept in late, who are more lethargic because of it or you went and hung out with CrossFitters that don't drink, that work out every day, that already have six pack abs. Jay is the same person, Cody is the same person.

我选择聚会的那群人，你选择CrossFit的那群人。你觉得谁会赢？就是你身边围绕的人。所以天啊，人在各个方面都是会相互感染的。如果你和那些充满热情、痴迷进取的人在一起，你做起同样的事来也会更容易。

I choose the group that parties, you choose the group that CrossFits. Who do you think wins? It's the people that you surround yourself with. And so gosh, people are contagious in every sense of the word. If you hang out with people that are passionate and obsessed and moving forward, it's just gonna be easier for you to do the same thing.

哦，说得太好了。太对了。我只是觉得，当你开始这么做时，你会发现它有多简单，但我觉得我们也害怕让朋友失望。我们以为，你知道，有时候我们也会遭到反对。比如我们的朋友可能会说，哦是啊，你现在只想和那个人在一起了。

Oh, it's so good. It's so true. And I just, you know how simple it is when you start doing it but I feel like we're also scared of like letting our friends down. We think we're, you know, sometimes we also get the backlash. Like our friends might be like, oh yeah, you just wanna be around that person now.

你现在只想要成功。我们对你来说不够好。我认为所有这些想法都会在人们脑海中萦绕——我们不想做坏人，但这并不是做坏人，只是我们心里总带着这种负担。

You just wanna be successful now. We're not good enough for you. And I think all of these things are what play on people's minds is we don't wanna be bad people but this isn't being a bad person but we kind of carry that around.

确实如此。就像有个微小的课题。比如现在你想存更多钱。年轻时没什么钱，很多开销都花在娱乐上，对吧？

It's very true. I mean, like there's like a micro lesson. So let's say right now you're trying to save more money. A lot of the ways when when you're young and don't have a lot of money that you spend it is entertainment. Right?

就是和朋友出去玩。很多时候你们出去都做什么？一起吃喝，谁买单，怎么分摊？我觉得这对年轻人来说是很尴尬的事。他们不知道如何开口告诉别人：我正在严格控制开支。

It's going out with your friends. And a lot of times when you go out with your friends, what do you do? Like, you guys are eating and drinking and who's splitting the check and what's happening here? And I think that's a really uncomfortable thing young people to do. They're like, don't know how to have a conversation with somebody saying, I'm really limiting my spend.

我知道我们六个人一起会很尴尬，但我今晚不喝酒，只点这个小的。你们介意我单独付自己的部分吗？为什么我们担心这样做？因为怕别人觉得我们小气，会评判我们，认为我们不合群。但如果你连这点小事都不愿意做，又如何实现目标呢？我记得以前一无所有时，这种感觉特别丢人。

So I know there's six of us and it would be really awkward, but I'm not drinking tonight and I'm just gonna have this little thing. So do you mind if I pay for my portion of it? Why do we worry about doing something like that? Because people are going think we're cheap, they might judge us, they're going think that we're not all in it together, and yet how are you going to reach your goals if you're not willing to do even that little thing? And I remember back in the day, you know, when I had no money at all and I couldn't afford anything, that felt super embarrassing to me.

但这些微小决定如果能坚持，最终会带来巨大改变。其实就是设定预期。如果你希望别人配合，可以直接说：提起这个我很不好意思，感觉有点怪，但我真的在攒钱投资做某件事。今晚我想和大家聚聚，如果我要求只付自己那份会让你们很不舒服吗？

And yet, those micro decisions will help you macro if you do it. All it is is expectation setting. I think a lot of times, if you want people to go along with something, you just say, Hey, I'm super embarrassed to bring this up. And it's a it's a little it feels weird to me, but I I'm really trying to save up to invest and to do this other thing and I I wanna hang out with you guys tonight. Would it make you so uncomfortable if I asked to just pay for my portion?

因为如果每次都要花光所有钱，我就没法继续参加聚会了。知道你会怎么做吗？你会帮另一个不敢开口的人打破沉默——他们其实也有同样感受，可能会说：天啊，我也是！欢乐时光正在慢慢吞噬我的投资预算。

Because I can't keep going out and doing all this if I have to spend everything. You know what you're gonna do? You're gonna unlock for somebody else there who's too afraid to say it and never will that they feel the exact same way. They're actually like, oh god, they got me too because happy hour is slowly killing my entire investing budget.

这事现在每次聊天都会提到。如果你坦白说出担忧，人们反而能理解。当你试图用尴尬的方式掩饰真实感受时问题就来了。一旦你说'我觉得很难为情'，对方立刻会产生共情，对吧？你的坦诚会唤起对方的同理心和包容，他们就能理解接受。而如果你只说'今晚我不来了'，效果就完全不同。

This is coming up more and more in every conversation I have right now. If you actually said what you were worried about, people would actually get it. It's when you kind of try and do the awkward thing of not sharing how you feel about it. Like when you say, I'm embarrassed about this, all of a sudden that person has empathy, right? Your confession of embarrassment creates empathy and compassion in the other person and then they receive it with the understanding whereas if you just say, hey, don't think I'm coming out tonight.

现在的情况就像是，等等，有什么问题吗？如果你现在出去说，哦，我只需要付自己的那份。你可能会显得小气，或者担心其他各种事情。但只要你诚实地面对这种尴尬和脆弱，就能与对方建立美好的连接。顺便说一句，下次他们可能就不会选那个地方了。

Now it's like, wait, what's wrong? If you now go out and say, oh yeah, I'm just gonna pay for my thing. Now you could come across as cheap or all the other things you're worried about. As soon as you're honest about the embarrassment, the vulnerability insights such a beautiful connection with someone. And by the way, next time, they may not choose that spot.

如果他们是好朋友，可能会选一个对你来说更容易的地方，他们实际上会朝着你的方向走，如果这样说得通的话。

They might choose somewhere that's easier for you if they're a good friend, they'll actually walk in your direction if that makes sense.

是的，你给了别人一个真正为你付出的机会，我意识到这其实是一份礼物。我不太擅长这个。但你知道，如果你能让另一个人走进来，伙计，隔阂很快就会打破。然后当你赚更多钱时，你可以开始以另一种方式回馈。是的。

Yeah, you give somebody else a chance to actually be there for you, which I've realized is a real gift. I'm not so good at that. But you know, if you can allow another person sort of in, man, walls break down pretty quick. And then as you make more money, you can start paying it forward the other way. Yeah.

你知道吗？然后当你有能力时，拥有金钱最酷的部分之一就是你可以说，我有这么多。别担心，不用你们任何人付钱。而且你不需要一直这样做。

You know? And and then when you can, one that's of the coolest parts about having money is then you're like, I got all this. Like, don't worry about it. Not one of you. And you don't have to do it all the time.

你不必总是装成大人物。但当你在成长阶段，当你在储蓄阶段，就待在那里。没关系，这就是你现在的处境。并且知道你不必一直停留在那里。

You don't have to, you know, big shot people. But when you're in your growth phase, when you're in your save phase, just be there. That's okay. That's where you are. And know that you don't have to stay there.

你最终可以进入你的'大男孩赠送阶段'，买昂贵的酒，做任何你想做的事，但你不必假装自己不在那个阶段。伙计，这在这种感觉赚钱更难、让你感到有点沉重的环境中也会很有帮助。我在商业中也看到了这一点。前几天我看到一条推文，让我觉得，唉。那是一位企业主，推文 literally 是一张看起来非常昂贵的晚餐照片，配文是：当你的公司还有几周就没现金了，但你知道团队士气真的很昂贵，所以你花了几千美元请团队吃晚餐。

You can eventually be in your big boy giveaway, buy the bottles, do whatever you want phase, but you don't have to pretend like you're not there. And man, that that'll really help too in environments like this where it feels harder to make money and and you feel a little heavy. And you know, I I saw this in business too. I saw this tweet the other day that I was like, oof. It was a business owner and the tweet was literally a picture of a really expensive looking dinner and it was like when your company is a couple weeks out from having no cash, but you know that team morale is really expensive, so you spend a couple thousand dollars on a dinner for the team.

我看了那条推文一会儿，我不相信在互联网上发布任何批评，所以我不会直接对那个人说什么，但我认为他错了。我认为作为领导者，你真正应该做的是说，嘿，我们正处于需要稍微紧缩的时期。我希望我们也许可以休息一个下午，或者做一些不花公司钱的事情，或者我们可以想出一些很酷的点子。我们可以做一个小挑战，看谁能想出最好的团队建设主意。但我实在负担不起这几千美元，因为保护你的工作和你在公司的未来是我的责任。

And I looked at that for a second and I don't believe in like posting any like criticism on the Internet, so I didn't I would never say anything for that person directly, but I think he's wrong. I think instead, what you really should do as a leader is say, hey, we're in a period where we need to tighten up a little bit. And I'd love us to maybe take an afternoon off or maybe do something that doesn't cost the company money or maybe we could come up with some cool ideas. We could do a little challenge to see who could come up with the best idea for us to do something like team building. But I can't actually afford this couple thousand because it's my duty to protect your job and to protect your future in this company.

所以，即使花一大笔钱会让我看起来很有面子，我也不会这么做。当企业运营不佳时，处于所有者位置确实非常可怕，超级超级可怕。是的。而且，你也不必总是把所有事情都告诉每个人，处理你的商业压力不是他们的职责，但告诉他们一些实际情况是可以的。

And so even though it would make me look good to spend a bunch of money, I'm not going to. And it's it's scary being in an ownership position when a business isn't working. It's super super scary. Yeah. And so it's okay to also you don't have to tell everybody everything all the time, it's not their job to handle your business stress, but it is okay to tell them some reality.

科迪，现在我想考考你两个重要领域。

Cody, there's two big areas I wanna quiz you on now.

哦，这样啊。

Oh, like that.

我觉得会有很多精彩内容。我让你选我们先从哪个开始。一个是金钱、约会和人际关系。另一个是当一个人从小额起步时的投资基础知识。

I think there's gonna be a lot of great stuff. I'm gonna let you choose which one we start with. One is money and dating and relationships. Yeah. And the other is the basics of investing when someone is starting with little.

你想先聊哪个？

Where do you wanna go first?

我想从一个非常随机的话题开始。是的。就是，我前几天看到一个有趣的研究，显示可以通过女性购买美容产品的方式预测经济衰退是否来临。这被称为'口红理论'，我今天还在琢磨这个，因为我觉得我们都在好奇经济走向何方。基本上情况是这样的，在世贸中心倒塌期间。

I wanna start with something really random. Yeah. Which is, so there was an interesting study I saw the other day that shows how you can predict if a recession is coming through the way that women buy beauty products. And so it's called the lipstick theory and I was playing around with this today because I think all of us are wondering where the economy is going. And basically what happened is during the this is when the World Trade Centers came down.

雅诗兰黛公司的创始人发现，尽管市场波动很大，在世贸中心袭击事件后大幅下跌，但口红销售额却增长了11%。实际上，很多这类非必需化妆品销量都大幅上升。于是他开始研究原因。他们意识到，当市场真正崩溃时，你会认为人们会减少非必需品的开支，但实际上他们减少的是大额奢侈品消费，反而在小额奢侈品上花费更多。

So Estee Lauder, the founder of the company, basically realized that even though the market had a lot of fluctuations in it, it was down hugely from the World Trade Center's crashing, lipstick sales were up 11%. And actually, a bunch of these like non necessary cosmetics were up a ton. And so he started looking at why. And what they realized is when the market really crashes, you would think people would pull back on things they don't need. But what they actually do is they pull back on the big luxuries and they spend more on the tiny ones.

所以可能不是他们那一年去度假，而是他们每天在镜子里看起来都更漂亮一点。我觉得这很有趣，因为当我们思考经济衰退时，有哪些当前无人关注的指标能告诉我们正在发生什么？其中之一就是观察美容产品的销量激增。你还可以通过推出这些产品的人数激增来看出这一点。是否有很多人持续购买，我觉得这挺有意思的。

So it might not be that they go on vacation that year, but it might be that they look a little prettier in the mirror every single day. And so I thought that was interesting because as we're thinking about recession, what are some of the indicators that nobody is watching today that could tell us what's happening? So one of them is actually look at a spike in beauty products. You can also see that by a spike of the people who are launching them. Are a lot of people continuing to buy, which I thought was kind of interesting.

这正是现在正在发生的。

Which is happening right now.

这正是现在正在发生的。是的。然后，我认为这引导我们思考的领域可能更多是在约会方面，这里有一些有点残酷的真相。事实证明，如果你想赚更多钱，你能做的最好的事情之一就是找一个伴侣，这很疯狂。已婚夫妇的平均收入比未婚夫妇高出30%以上。

Which is happening right now. Yeah. And then you know, the place I think that this takes us is maybe a little bit more on the dating side, which is here's some like a little tough truth. It turns out if you want to make more money, one of the best things that you can do is find a partner, which is crazy. So married couples make on average more than 30% more than non married couples.

他们的净资产几乎是单身人士在整个职业生涯中的三倍。我提到这一点不是为了羞辱任何还没有找到伴侣的人。我知道当你觉得没有选择、想要寻找爱情却身边没有时的感受。但我之所以提起，是因为我认为这是我们真正应该优先考虑的事情。如果我们关心赚钱，就应该优先考虑；如果我们当然关心爱情，也应该优先考虑。

Their net worth is almost three x someone who is single over the course of their entire career. And so I bring this up not to shame anybody who hasn't found their partner. I know what that's like when you feel like there's no options and you wanna find love but it's not around you. But why I do bring it up is because I think it's something that we should really prioritize. We should prioritize if we care about making money and we should prioritize if we care about love certainly.

而且我认为它被污名化了。婚姻被污名化了。你做得非常出色，展示了婚姻背后可能存在的美丽，同时也承认，有时候我讨厌她。就像我和我丈夫在一起时，有时候会想，哦，你今天怎么回事？真的吗？

And I think it's gotten a bad wrap. Marriage has a bad wrap. You do an incredible job of showing the beauty that can be behind it while also being like, sometimes I hate her. Like I'm with my husband, sometimes like, oh, you today? Really?

谢天谢地我爱你，因为我想杀了你。这对你的财务健康是一个真正的福音。所以，任何在你身边说‘我不需要男人，没有他我会更好’的人，你知道，他们都有毒，我约会过的其他人都是自恋者。我想稍微挑战一下你的框架，说，第一，你认为你会吸引你讨厌的东西吗？可能不会。

Thank God I love you because I want to murder you. It's a real boon to your financial health. And so anybody that is around you that is saying, I don't need no man, I'd be better off without him, you know, they're all toxic, everybody else is a narcissist that I've dated. I kind of want to push on your frame a little bit and say, one, do you think you attract things that you hate on? Probably not.

第二，有很多理由表明，你展现出对伴侣关系的稳定性将为整体带来更稳定的生活。所以我觉得这非常吸引人。

Two, there's a lot of reasons why you showing the stability for a partnership will lead to a more stable life overall. And so I thought that was that was fascinating.

在我们深入下一个环节之前，先来听听赞助商的信息。本期节目由BetterHelp赞助。当生活变得艰难时，你会向谁求助？是群聊？还是深夜向几乎不认识的人过度倾诉？

Before we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Who do you go to when life gets tough? The group chat? A late night overshare with someone you barely know?

有趣的是，我们总是向那些无法提供解决问题工具的人分享内心最深处的想法。而这正是心理咨询的不同之处。治疗师经过临床培训和专业认证，能帮助你以全新视角看待问题，发现未曾注意的模式，实现真正持久的改变。BetterHelp十多年来一直帮助人们匹配合适的治疗师，在170万次客户咨询评价中获得4.9分高分。流程非常简单：填写简短问卷后，他们将从全球3万多名持证治疗师中为您匹配最合适的人选。

It's funny how we'll share our deepest thoughts with people who can't always give us the tools to work through them. That's where therapy is different. Therapists are clinically trained and licensed to help you see things from a new perspective and find patterns you didn't notice and create real lasting change. BetterHelp has been helping people find the right therapist for over ten years, with a 4.9 rating from 1,700,000 client session reviews. They make it easy, you take a short questionnaire, and with over 30,000 licensed therapists worldwide, they'll match you with someone who fits your needs.

如果匹配不满意，您可以随时免费更换咨询师。全程在线服务，让您随时随地都能开始咨询。已有超过500万人通过BetterHelp开启了明晰、疗愈与成长的旅程。作为全球最大的在线心理咨询平台，BetterHelp提供涵盖多种专业领域的心理健康专家资源。通过BetterHelp找到属于您的专家吧。

And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime at no extra cost. It's all online, so you can start from anywhere, anytime. Over 5,000,000 people have used BetterHelp to begin their journey toward clarity, healing, and growth. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp.

我们的听众首月可享九折优惠，请访问betterhelp.com/jaystop3。随着天气转凉、白昼变短，我总是想把家布置得更温馨。秋天的氛围让人不由自主地放慢节奏，点燃蜡烛，打造温暖宜人的空间。说实话，Wayfair就是我实现这个愿望的首选。

Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.comjaystop3. That's betterhelp.com/jaystop3. As the weather cools down and the days get shorter, I always find myself wanting to make my home feel cozier. There's something about fall that makes you slow down, light a candle, and create a space that feels warm and inviting. And honestly, Wayfair is where I go to make that happen.

Wayfair提供打造温馨家居所需的一切——无论是蜷缩休息的舒适躺椅、抵御寒夜的柔软床品，还是增添季节气息的秋日装饰。他们甚至备有浓缩咖啡机，让您能在厨房轻松制作最爱的拿铁。我最近为阅读角添置了一条舒适盖毯和一盏柔光台灯，瞬间改变了空间氛围，让它变成了一个小小避风港。

Wayfair is everything you need to cozify your home, whether it's a comfy recliner to curl up in, soft bedding for those chilly nights, or even autumn inspired decor to bring in the season. They even have espresso makers so you can make that cafe latte you love right in your kitchen. For me, I recently picked up a cozy throw blanket and a low lit lamp for my reading corner. It transformed the space instantly. Suddenly, it feels like a little sanctuary.

我特别喜欢Wayfair提供多种风格和价位的选择，还配备免费便捷的配送服务。现在正是为秋冬季节打造理想家居的最佳时机，让您轻松舒适地享受这个季节。通过Wayfair精心策划的系列产品，以实惠价格实现家居焕新——从舒适躺椅到温馨床品再到秋日装饰，尽在wayfair.com。

I love that Wayfair has options for every style and budget, plus free and easy delivery. Now really is the best time to get your home ready for four, so you can enjoy the season with ease and comfort. Cozify your home with Wayfair's curated collection of easy, affordable fall updates, from comfy recliners to cozy bedding and autumn decor. Find it all for way less at wayfair.com. That's wayfair.com.

Wayfair——每种风格，每个家。我是《On Purpose》的Jay Shetty。如果您曾感到与自我失去连接，不妨尝试改变环境，哪怕只是几天时间。达美航空最近就邀请了四位创作者进行这样的实验：两段旅程，一个命题。

Wayfair. Every style, every home. This is Jay Shetty from On Purpose, and if you've ever felt like you've lost touch with yourself, try changing your surroundings, even for just a few days. Delta recently invited four creators to do just that. Two trips, one question.

如果旅行不仅仅是移动，而是在动态中充电呢？在西雅图，他们专注于日常作息和自我关怀——健身时间、接地气的散步和冥想。在哥本哈根，他们选择放手——骑自行车、蒸桑拿、拥抱当下。

What if travel isn't just movement, but recharging in motion? In Seattle, they focused on routine and self care. Gym time, grounding walks, and meditation. In Copenhagen, they let go. Biking, saunas, and embracing the moment.

最让他们惊讶的是什么？他们平时的压力消散了。他们感到更清晰、更平静、更有连接感。而Auraing的数据也证实了这一点。根据他们的Auraing睡眠评分，每个人醒来时都感觉更休息充分。

And what surprised them most? Their usual stress faded. They felt clearer, calmer, more connected. And auraing data backed it up. Based on their auraing sleep scores, everyone met the day feeling more rested.

而且他们的身体在不经意间活动得更多。旅行给了他们实践自我关怀的空间，不是限制，而是平衡。最棒的部分？那种幸福感并没有在他们回家时结束。与达美航空一起，飞得更好，活得更好。

And their bodies moved more without even trying. Travel gave them space to practice self care, and not restriction, but balance. And the best part? That sense of well-being didn't end when they got home. With Delta, fly and live better.

在达美航空的YouTube频道探索完整旅程。感谢您花时间观看。现在回到讨论。当我观察成功的男性，回到您早先关于导师的观点，任何指导过我的成功男性都告诉我，拥有一个女人的生活改变了他们的职业轨迹。因为他们发现，花在追逐、追求、讨好女性上的时间越少，他们就有越多时间专注于事业。

Explore the whole journey on Delta's YouTube channel. Thanks for taking a moment for that. Now back to the discussion. When I look at successful men, going back to your earlier point of mentors, any of the successful men that I've ever been mentored by talk to me about having a one woman life change their career trajectory. Because they found that the less time they wasted on chasing, pursuing, wooing women, the more time they had to focus on their career.

所以即使从另一面看，决定承诺于一个女人的男性，比他们试图打动多个女人或照顾多个女人时，拥有更多精力、更多专注、更多动力、更多力量去赚钱和创业。当然，也有例外。有些人没有伴侣也非常成功，等等。他们甚至可能把爱情生活放在了次要位置。

So even from the other side, men who decide to commit to one woman have more energy, more focus, more drive, more power to direct towards making money and building a business than they do when they're trying to impress lots of women or take care of lots of women. Now, of course, there are exceptions. There are people who become very successful without having a partner and whatever. They may have even put their love life on the back burner.

确实。

Sure.

但已婚的男性，那些生活中有这种承诺的人，只是更…

But men who are married were just more, who had that commitment in their life.

这很疯狂，他们说你们也更快乐，而且你们活得更久。是啊。我们稍微没那么快乐。你们也活得不那么长，活得不那么长。

Which is wild, they say you're happier too and you guys live longer. Yeah. We're like slightly less happy. You guys don't live as long as well, Don't live as long.

因为你在应付一个宝宝。

Because you're dealing with a baby.

是啊，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

很有趣，昨天我妻子对我说，因为我肯定跟她说了我想吃什么晚餐，然后她说，嗯，这是养孩子的绝佳训练。我对她说，是啊，她说，丈夫是养孩子的绝佳训练。我说，是啊，妻子是养青少年的绝佳训练。那一刻真的很有趣，我们在互相调侃，我就说，是啊你就像个青少年，要处理情绪啊所有这些事，而你在应付我像婴儿一样的需求，比如，嘿你能喂我吗？

It was funny, yesterday my wife said to me, cause I must have said to her what I want for dinner, and she goes, well this is great training to have a kid. And I said to her, yeah, she goes, husband's a great training to have a kid. And I go, yeah, wife's great training to have a teenager. And it was just like, was just this really funny moment where we were bantering and I was like, yeah you're like a teenager, dealing with emotions and all this stuff and you're dealing with my like baby needs of like, hey can you feed me?

非常非常真实。我也觉得，天啊，如果你像，我更多是从女性视角来说，因为我是个女生，所以我尽量谈论我知道的所有事情。但你知道，从女性视角来看，我觉得我们在约会中处理金钱的方式有很多问题。是啊。

It's very very true. I also think, man, if you're like, I I talk more from the women perspective just because I'm a I'm a chick and so I try to talk about all the things I know about. But you know, from a female perspective, there's a lot of things that I think are wrong in the way we date with money. Yeah.

这正是我想探讨的。是啊。

That's what I wanna get into. Yeah.

是啊。比如，你知道，越来越多地说，64%的女性不会和收入水平不如她或比她低的男性约会。而对男性来说，至少在研究中似乎并非如此。他们其实不在乎收入水平。嗯，问题在于如今有更多女性在提高收入和受教育程度，比男性进步得更快。

Yeah. Like for instance, you know, increasingly, they say that 64% of women will not date a man if he doesn't have the same income level or higher than her. For men, that actually in the studies at least does not seem to be the case. They actually don't care about income level. Well, problem there that more women are increasing their incomes and increasing their education levels than men are today.

我认为还有比六五信托基金蓝眼睛之类更阴暗的东西，那就是我们正在优先考虑那些似乎不会带来任何幸福感提升的事情。夫妻是否收入水平相同或更高并不会让他们更幸福。如果他们专注于金钱和其他事情，他们也不会变得更富有。所以从我的角度来看，我在想，如果你是一个当今的女性，你知道，我不提供约会建议。但数据显示金钱在恋爱关系中并不重要。

I think there's something darker even than the six five trust fund blue eyes thing, which is we're prioritizing the thing that seems to not lead to any increase in happiness. Couples are no happier if they are the same income level or higher or not. They aren't wealthier if they focus on that and something else. And so from my perspective, I'm like, man, if you're a woman today, you know, I don't give dating advice. But the money seems to show that that does not matter in a relationship.

你知道，我丈夫很棒，我认识他时他已经经营着一家企业。他曾是海豹突击队员。政府为那个角色支付的报酬并不高。所以他当时玩的是完全不同的游戏。他其实根本不在乎钱。

You know, my husband is amazing and already ran a business when I met him. He was a Navy Seal. The government doesn't pay very much for that role. And so he was just playing a totally different game. He didn't care about money actually at all.

他在乎的是服务和尊重。那是他想要的。他想做一些有贡献的事，也想做一些能赢得尊重的事。而我从事金融行业，贡献并不大，你知道，但我赚了很多钱。所以我们两个人结合在一起时，力量真的非常非常强大。

He cared about service and he cared about respect. That's what he wanted. He wanted to do something that served and he wanted to do something that commanded respect. I, in finance, was not that much serving, you know, but I was a lot money. And so when the two of us came together, it was really, really powerful.

所以对于当今的女性，当她们经常问我，如何找到伴侣？如果你赚很多钱而他不赚怎么办？我会说找一个玩不同游戏的人，这样你们俩可以互补。你们俩玩的是同一个游戏吗？你们都在努力成长和赚钱吗？不，

And so for women today, lot of times when they ask me, how do you find a partner? What do you do if you make a lot of money and he doesn't? I'm like find somebody who plays a different game because then you two can compliment. Did you both play the same game? Were you both trying to grow and make No,

不，不。嗯，Rathi一直很平和。她一直对自己是谁、拥有什么感到平静，她的旅程更像是，我经常谈到你提到的被更多人包围的方面。所以我们成长的文化中，通常我们社区的女性会成为家庭主妇并照顾孩子。那是我成长过程中看到的大多数情况。

no, no. So well, Rathi's always been at peace. She's always been at peace with who she is, what she has and her journey was more kind of, I always talk about the aspect of what you mentioned of being surrounded by more people. So we grew up in a culture where generally women in our community became housewives and took care of the kids. That's majority of what you'd see growing up where I grew up.

那很美。那没有任何问题，我也没有评判它。有趣的是当我们搬到纽约，然后又搬到洛杉矶时，Riley被很多女性朋友包围，她们都是创始人，创办了企业，取得了许多不可思议的成就，而她们也恰好是快乐的妈妈和快乐的妻子。Riley接触到她们几乎打开了关于女性可以做什么、可以取得什么成就、什么是可能的概念。而她只是在做自己。

Now that's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not judging it. What was interesting was when we moved to New York and then we moved to LA, Riley was surrounded by a lot of our female friends who were all founders, who built businesses, who've achieved a lot of incredible things and they happen to be happy moms and happy wives as well. Riley being exposed to them almost opened up to this idea of what women could do, what women could achieve, what was possible. And she is just coming to her own.

比如去年她第一次推出她的书时，去年她推出播客时，她一直在成长并找到自我，我认为她真的很喜欢这段旅程。这从来不是关于成长，不是关于征服，也不是关于某个目的地。她只是喜欢她可以充分表达自己并运用她的技能帮助他人这一事实。我也是从同样的事情开始的。我从未有过财务目标。

Like when she launched her book last year for the first time, when she launched her podcast last year, she's just been growing and finding herself and I think she's really loved the journey. It's never been about growth, it's never been about conquering, it's never been about a destination. She just loves the fact she can fully express herself and use her skills to help people. I started with the same thing. I never had financial goals.

我从未认识过如此财务成功的人。我只是想找到帮助他人的方法，然后意识到如果你不能全职做这件事，你就无法全职帮助他人。所以，即使你有最高尚的理由去做你所做的事，如果你无法支付自己和雇人协助，你也无法长久坚持。因此，我必须重新调整与金钱的关系，因为我曾相信，如果你在做好事，就必须贫穷。哇。

I never knew anyone who is that financially successful. I just wanted to find a way to help people and then I realized you couldn't help people full time if you couldn't do this full time. So you can have all the most noble reasons to do what you do If you can't pay yourself and pay people to help you do it, you're not gonna do it for that long. So I had to rewire my relationship with money because I used to believe that if you were doing good in the world, you had to be poor. Wow.

我必须彻底改变这种关系，因为我必须明白，如果我想在世界上做更大的好事，我需要金钱，因为我需要更大的团队、更大的机会、更广泛的关系。而游戏的规则是，金钱提供了这些途径。

And I had to completely shift my relationship because I had to understand that actually if I wanted to do bigger good in the world, I needed money because I needed bigger teams, I needed bigger opportunities, I needed bigger relationships. And the rules of the game are money gives access to that.

我来自拉丁文化，所以金钱从来不是真正负面的东西。谈论它是不好的，你不能真的谈论钱，拥有太多可能也不好，那就像是，哦，他们真有钱。所以他们是怎么达到那种状态的？

I come from a Latino culture and so money was never really bad. It was bad to talk about it, you couldn't really talk about money and it was bad to maybe have too too much of it, that was like, oh, they're really rich. So how did they get there?

一样。你知道吗？一样，非常相似。

Same. Know? Same, very similar.

是的。但我父亲，我对此非常感激，如果我有孩子，我希望我能做同样的事。你知道，如果你想成为一个好父亲，特别是对女儿，你希望你的女儿非常自信并拥有很多选择，我会以我父亲为榜样。他总是说，你可以成为公主，也可以成为总统，你来选择。他很可爱。他还真的教过我，金钱是无道德属性的，它不在乎好坏。

Yeah. But my dad, which I'm so grateful and if I have kids I hope I can do the same thing. You know, if you want to be a good father to a daughter and you want your daughter to be really confident and have a ton of optionality, I'd model after my father and what he always said is well you could be a princess or you could also be the president, you choose. Then he's very cute. And he also really taught me that money is amoral, It doesn't care.

它是一种工具。一把锤子本身没有好坏，取决于你怎么使用它。你可以用锤子做好事来建造东西，也可以用锤子去谋杀，金钱也是如此。所以我不得不以这种方式与金钱达成和解，因为我认为金钱是你内心任何东西的加速器。所以，如果你不是一个好人，你想在世界上做坏事，金钱在你手中就非常糟糕。

It is a tool. A hammer is not good or bad except how you use it. You could use a hammer for really good to build something, you could use a hammer for murder, same with money. And so I had to I came to the terms with money in this way because I think that money is an accelerator to whatever is inside of you. So if you are not a great person and you want to do bad things in the world, money is really bad to be in your hands.

如果你是一个好人，你想在世界上做好事，那么金钱在你手中就非常好。只要你能忠于内心的那个东西，那么金钱实际上只是一种能力，让你能够建造你想要的世界，而不是生活在别人的世界里。你知道，我看着我哥哥某种程度上经历了这个，因为他从来不怎么在乎金钱或成功。我的意思是，他上周末结婚了，在

If you are a good person and you want to do good in the world, money is really good to have in your hands. And as long as you can stay true to that thing inside of you, then money is actually just an ability for you to build the world that you want as opposed to live in somebody else's. You know, watched my brother kinda go through this because he's never cared really about money or success. I mean, he got married last weekend and at

哦，哇。恭喜。

his Oh, wow. Congrats.

谢谢。我真的为他感到兴奋。她也很棒。他在演讲中说，在遇到雅典娜之前，我曾想过只想找个海滩待着，喝喝啤酒，不太想在生活中建立太多东西。我只想放松。

Thanks. I'm really excited for him. She's amazing too. And he said in his speech, he's like, before I met Athena, I used to think that I wanted to just kind of post up on a beach somewhere, drink beers, like I didn't really want to build very much out of life. I wanted to just chill.

我以前从没听他说过这话，他说，但后来我遇到了雅典娜，现在那已经不够了。现在我想建立一些东西。我想为她建立，为我们的孩子建立。我就看着他像个小男人一样在我面前成长，这太不可思议了。同时也意识到你注定要做更多。

I'd never heard him say that out loud before and he said, But then I met Athena and now that's not enough. Now I want to build something. I want to build for her, I want to build for our kids. And I just watched him like turn into a little man, you know, in front of me, which was incredible. And then also realize like you're made for more.

但在我看来，他就像罗迪给你的感觉一样，他一直很自在地做自己。他是我见过最真实的人。你几乎无法用同伴压力让他做任何事。我对有这种平和心态的人非常尊重。

But he is he sounds to me like what Roddy sounds like to you which is he has always been very comfortable as him. He is the most him human I've ever met. You couldn't really peer pressure him into anything. And I have a lot of respect for people that have that kind of peace.

是的，这真的很特别。我想回到这个话题，我知道我不是在寻求约会建议，而是在寻求金钱建议。很好。我觉得现在这两者紧密相连。我喜欢我们开始的方式，但有很多东西需要梳理。第一次约会应该谁付钱，男人还是女人？

Yeah, it's really special. I wanna go back into this and I know I'm not asking for dating advice, I'm asking for money advice. Good. Which I think they go so closely together now And I love where we started off but there's so many things to kinda unpack with that. Who should pay on the first date, men or women?

在我看来，我认为提出约会的人应该付钱。我同意。是的。男人对女人。女人，如果你要邀请别人约会，我认为至少应该主动提出付钱。

In my opinion, I think the person who asks for the date pays. I agree. Yep. Men versus women. Woman, if you're going to ask them out on a date, I think the expectation is at least offer.

男人，如果你要邀请某人约会，我认为期望就是付钱。是的。我在某些方面倾向于传统。我觉得高价值的男人想要支持和保护他的女人。不一定总是经济上，但以某种形式。

Men, if you're going to ask somebody out on a date, I think the expectation is do it. Yeah. I tend to be a traditionalist in some ways. I think sort of high value man wants to support and protect his woman. Doesn't always have to be financially, but in some way shape or form.

而一个高价值的女性也想为她的男人做同样的事，但可能无法像他保护她那样保护他。这就像是我们的生理结构决定的，对吧？所以这是我的本能反应。现在如果由我决定，我记得以前有一次我被约出去约会，对方没有付钱，这让我非常反感。

And a high value, woman wants to do the same thing for her man, but probably can't protect him as much. Like that's just that's just our physiology. Right? And so that would be my gut reaction. Now if it's up to me, I remember back in the day, I did get asked on a date once and they didn't pay and it was such a huge turn off for me.

我们后来还是朋友，但我当时立刻就划清界限了——我们永远不会约会。所以在某种程度上，如今男性在这种情况下也挺难的。但如果你要和我这样的人约会，如果你主动邀请，我至少会期望你提出付钱。是的。

We we stayed friends but I was like immediate unsubscribe. We're never dating. And so it's tough to be a man in in that case in some way today. But if you were gonna date somebody like me, I would expect you to at least offer if you ask. Yeah.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我想我同意你的观点。主动邀请约会的人应该付钱。我提出这个问题不是为了让你难堪，我觉得这是一个真实的讨论，因为人们确实会这样做，就像你刚才说的，如果他不付钱，他就出局了。顺便说一下，我来自一个由妈妈抚养长大的家庭，还有一个妹妹，所以我成长的环境非常倾向于'我来做，我来负责'。当我和Radhee刚开始约会时，我确实通过给学生辅导大学和11+考试来赚钱，这样才能有足够的钱带Radhee出去约会。

I think so I agree with you. The person who asks the person out on the date should pay. And this wasn't to get you into trouble, I think it's a real discussion because I think that's what people do, how you just said, hey, if he didn't pay, he's out. By the way, and I come from, I was raised by my mom, I have a younger sister, so I come from a very like, I'll do it, I'll take care of it kind of background. And I did when me and Radhee first started dating, I used to actually tutor students for their college and 11 plus exams to make enough money to take Radhee out on a date.

那时候一小时赚20英镑，因为我们刚认识时我没什么钱。我就是这样支付约会费用的。我觉得很多男性会想，是的，一旦我们有了某种承诺我会这么做。就像一旦我们关系有进展了，但男性可能会想，如果我们都还在试探阶段，我为什么要这么做？我会在我们都明确说'我们是排他的，是男女朋友，是认真的关系，这段感情有未来'之后才这么做。

That's so To make like £20 an hour because I didn't have any money when we met. And that's how I'd pay for stuff. I think a lot of men feel, yes, I'll do that once we have some commitment. Like once we're going somewhere today, like I feel like men are like, well, why would I do that if we're both figuring this out? Like I would do that once we both say, hey, we're exclusive, we're boyfriend and girlfriend, we're in a committed relationship, this is going somewhere.

但如果这只是我们的第一次、第二次或第三次约会，我们甚至还不真正了解对方，那么我有点希望你能和我平等分担，因为这才是我们想要建立的关系。

But if it's like our first or second date or third day and we don't really even know each other, then I kind of want you to come and meet me hot middle because that's what we're trying to build.

我的意思是，我无法想象我参加过哪次约会至少没有提出过分摊费用。如果你要求全程由你支付，我会觉得有点奇怪。我觉得那是一个信号。是的，那绝对是一个信号。

I mean, can't imagine I've ever been on a date where I didn't ask to split it at least. I think I would feel weird if you asked to, you know, yeah, you pick it up all the way. I'd like, that's a signal. Yeah. That's definitely a signal.

那是一个信号，是一种退出机制。但你知道，男人们嘛。这是我们人类历史上可能头一次——大概最近两百年吧——出现的副产品。男性和女性正在竞争同样的东西。嗯。

That's a signal, it's an opt out. But, you know, men hey. It's a byproduct of the fact that we have for the first time in our let's call it the last two hundred years probably of human existence. Men and women are competing for the same thing. Mhmm.

这种情况以前从未真正存在过。是的。我的意思是，我父母是这种情况开始出现的第一代。对我祖父母那代人来说，这根本不是一个选项。所以我们必须诚实面对这个事实：如今，女性们正在竞争工作机会，竞争教育名额，竞争话语权，竞争被倾听的场合。

This has never really existed before. Yeah. I mean, my parents were the first generation where this started. My grandparents, that was not an option. So we have to be honest about the fact that today, and women, they are competing for jobs, they are competing for education spots, they are competing for relevancy, they're competing for being heard places.

我的意思是，甚至在某些方面，随着现代医学的发展，她们甚至在生育必要性方面都在竞争。因此这将会产生我甚至无法想象的连锁反应。其中之一就是，当我们说想要作为女性获得平等时，我们应该思考这意味着什么。所以我认为如今的年轻男性完全有理由说：嘿，我们在各方面都是平等的。这是我们两个人之间的伙伴关系。

I mean, heck, in some ways, they're even competing for like necessity to procreate with all of the modern medicine that's happening. And so there are going to be rippling side effects from this that I can't even imagine. And one of them is that when we say we want to be equal as women, well then we should think about what that means. And so I think young men today are very right to say, hey, you know, we're equal in every way. It's a partnership between the two of us.

所以我认为我们还没有成为真正的伙伴。既然如此，那就分开吧。是的。而且我觉得在生活中，克里斯和我总是说一句话：你是想争个对错，还是想赢得成功？所以我的想法是，如果你是一个年轻男性，正在追求一个你真的很喜欢或可能喜欢的女性，你是

So I don't believe that we are partners yet. Ipso facto, let's split. Yeah. And I think in life, Chris and I always have a saying, which is do you want be right or do you want to win? And so my thought is if you're a young man and you are pursuing a woman that you really like or think you might like, do

想争个对错还是

you want be right or do

想赢得成功？你是想在社会规范上争个对错——是的，她应该分摊账单，但现在你却要费尽口舌说服她答应第二次约会？好吧。那就这么做吧。

you want to win? Do you want to be right in society that, yes, she should have split the bill, but now you have to talk her back into a second date? Okay. Fine. Then go that way.

如果你是一个年轻女性，你真的很喜欢那个男生，而他对这种方式更自在，你是想争个对错还是想赢得成功？那就分摊账单。然后在适当的时候告诉他：嘿，如果我们决定认真交往，这对我很重要。我们能不能两人之间协商解决？如今我们太忙于指责什么才是正确的，而不是问问自己：我真正想要的是什么？

If you're a young woman and you really like the guy and he is more comfortable with this, do you want to be right or do you want to win? Split the bill. And then tell him at some point, hey, know, if we're committed to each other, this is important to me. Can we negotiate it between the two of us? We're so busy these days pointing fingers at what's right as opposed to saying, what do I want?

那么我要采取什么行动来实现这个目标呢？是的。在一个很多男人都AA制的世界里，如果你很难找到女朋友，能主动买单会是一个相当大的优势。对吧？而如果你是一个找不到男人的女人，也许你可以向男人展示你是一个真正的伴侣。

And then so what action am I gonna take to get there? Yeah. In a world in which a lot of guys split bills, if you have a hard time getting chicks, be a pretty big upside if you can pick up the bill. Right? And if you're a woman that can't find a man, maybe you show the man that you're a true partner.

而且即使他提出要买单，你也可以说，我真的很想AA制。这样会让你觉得舒服吗？我想让你知道，在伴侣关系中，我相信要支持我的男人。这两种方式都没有错，它们只是可能帮助你获胜。

And like even if he offers, you say, I really would like to split it. Would that make you feel comfortable? I want you to know that in partnership I believe in being there for my man. Neither of those are wrong, they just might help you win.

确实。我喜欢这个说法。正好说到获胜。你看过那部电影《公平竞争》吗？没有。

Definitely. I love that. Right in winning. There's a did you watch that movie Fair Play? No.

好吧。去年有一部电影，我觉得看的人不多，它有点像，我不知道它是不是真正的独立电影，但它是在Netflix上线的，不过我觉得不是很火。是的。但这部电影黑暗地描绘了一对夫妇在同一家公司竞争同一个职位的故事。真的很不错。

Okay. So there was a movie last year, I don't think a lot of people sway, it was kind of like an I think, don't I know if it was a true indie but it wasn't, it was on Netflix but I don't think it was hugely popular. Yeah. But it was a dark take on a couple who were both vying for the same job in a company. It's really good.

就像它展示的那样，它绝对是黑暗的，也绝对是极端的。是的。但它展示了嫉妒、竞争、性别角色如何改变、期望，女性变得更有才华和受过更好教育，你知道，这是对我们所处位置的一个很好的社会评论。我想知道你是怎么看的，因为我遇到很多有抱负的年轻女性，她们想做得非常非常出色，而她们似乎让现在的男性感到害怕。我从男性的角度看待这个问题，我理解这对男性来说是新的。

Like it shows, it's definitely dark and it's definitely extreme. Yeah. But it just shows the envy, the competition, how the gender roles have changed, the expectations, women being more talented and educated and you know, it's such a good social commentary on where we're at. I wonder how have you found it because I meet a lot of ambitious young women who want to do really, really well and they seem to intimidate men today. And I look at that from the men's perspective and I understand that it's new for men.

很多男性感到被抛在后面。他们继承了前辈男性的痛苦，那些滥用权力或错误使用权力的人。如果一个女性现在很有野心，她如何继续保持野心，同时找到一个从财务角度理解并尊重这一点的男人？

A lot of men feel left behind. They've inherited the pain of the men who came before them, who've abused power or used it wrongly. If a woman's ambitious right now, how does she continue to be ambitious and still find a man that gets that and respects that from a financial point of view?

是的。作为一个可以说是很有冲劲的女性，我发现的残酷真相是，在这个社会里，你不能玩男人的游戏并获胜。而且我不确定我们应该这样做。那么我这是什么意思呢？我的意思是男人是推推推 aggressive（积极进取的），甚至我们的生理结构也是如此。

Yeah. The hard truth that I found as a woman who you could say is hard charging is that you can't play a man's game and win in this society. And I'm not sure we should. And so what do I mean by that? I mean that men are push push push aggressive or even our physiology.

对吧？一方在接收，一方肯定在给予。所以今天，如果你是一个非常有进取心的年轻女性，你得思考：你是雄心勃勃但令人畏惧吗？你是不是有点像个泼妇？很多时候，因为我们觉得必须站出来、必须为自己争取，结果反而表现得不够友善，失去了女性应有的温柔。

Right? One is receiving and one is certainly giving. And so today, I think if you are a young woman who's really hard charging, you have to think about are you being ambitious and intimidating? Are you being kind of a bitch? And I think a lot of times because we've had we felt like we have to stand up, we have to push for ourselves, we're actually just not being that nice as women.

而且，你知道，那种‘你可以自己搞定一切，不需要男人，他根本不听你的’之类的论调，那种能量真的很负面。男人不需要这个。我认识的两位非常可爱的单身女性，所有认识她们的人总是说：真不敢相信你还单身，你不应该单身的。

And and it's that, you know, you you can go get a girl and you don't need a man and he's not listening to you and, you know, blah blah blah. That energy is really negative. Men don't need that. The two women that I that I know that are lovely and they're single. And, you know, everybody I know tells them all the time, can't believe you're single, you shouldn't be single.

但她们常说什么？其中一位我很喜欢，我也给过她我的看法，但她总是说：‘我不想再像妈妈一样照顾男人了，我不想当他们的保姆。’你知道吗？如果你一直称他们为‘男孩’，那他们就会一直表现得像男孩。

But what do they say often? One of them who I adore and I'm kind of have given her my opinion on this, but she says all the time, well, I don't wanna like mother anymore men. I don't wanna mother them. Like, you know what? All these boys, like, well, if you keep calling them that, then that is what they will be.

所以你必须非常小心，不要削弱男性的男子气概，也必须确保他们关注他们比女性更在意的两件事：尊重。你知道，女性真正想要的是被爱，而你们男人想要的是被尊重。对吧？大体上如此，虽然这是粗略的概括。所以在经营企业时，必须时刻记住这一点。我雇佣男性员工。

And so you've got to be really careful about not demasculating men and you've got to be really careful about making sure that they care about the two things they care about more than women do, is they care about respect and you know, women really, we want be loved, you guys want to be respected. Right? Like by and large, gross generalization. And so in driving businesses, have to remember that all the time. I employ men.

就在刚才，我刚进行了一次对话，我在其中完全压制了某人。我主导了整个会议，一直说个不停，非常强势，还在会议上稍微说教了一番。幸运的是，对方在这种情况下对我说：‘嘿，顺便说一句，我感觉有点像被说教了。’

I just had a conversation right before this where I steamrolled somebody. I totally owned the entire meeting. I just kept talking and I was really aggressive. And I lectured a little bit in the meeting. And thankfully, my person in this situation was like, hey, by the way, I felt a little bit like a lecture.

感觉他们需要被倾听，而不是被如此强势地推动。我当时想，天啊，你说得对。这就是我脑海中负面女性特质显现的时候——当我们认为‘让我继续说下去，我要坚持这一点’。所以我会反驳这种负面想法：你真的是在威慑男性，还是只是在刻薄待人？

It felt like they needed to be heard, not pushed so much. I was like, God, you're right. And that's when like the negative feminine shows up in my mind is when we think, let me just keep going, I'm gonna pound on this. So I would push back on the negative. Are you really intimidating men or are you being mean?

而且我认为很多时候我们确实有点刻薄，所以我们需要收敛一些。并非所有男人都想支配你，你知道的。很多男人是我遇到过的最好的导师。

And I think often we are being a little mean and so we need to pull that back. Not all men want to dominate you, you know. A lot of men are the best mentors I've ever had.

是的。这对女性来说很难，因为男性长期以来都能肆无忌惮地行事，对吧？比如，如果一个男性在会议上那样表现，他会得到同样的反馈吗？绝对不会。绝对不会。

Yeah. And it's that hard part for women because men for so long have gotten away with pounding the pavement, right? So like if a man behaved there in a meeting, would he get the same feedback? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

他只会被告知这很正常，他会蒙混过关然后继续前进。所以这几乎是人们对你的期望，而且不应该基于性别，而应该基于你的行为举止。比如说，我不是一个会生气或对人大喊大叫的人，这根本不是我的性格。是的。所以如果我这样做了，会太不符合我的性格，我觉得有人会哭。

He'd just be told that's normal and he'd get away with it and he'd move on. And so it's almost what people expect of you and it shouldn't be based on gender, it should be based on your demeanor. Like for example, I'm not someone who gets angry or shouts at people or it's just not who I am. Yeah. So if I did it, it would be so out of character I think someone would cry.

你知道，就像，你以为每天对你大喊大叫的人会让你哭。不，不，不。是那个真正沉默冷静的人，如果他们失控了，你会心碎，因为你没想到他们会这样。我认为当我们谈论金钱时，这一切都变得困难，因为金钱创造了权力动态，尤其是在夫妻之间，它在家庭中创造了权力动态。我的意思是，最近我有很多朋友，无论男女，都不得不要求伴侣在结婚前签署婚前协议，这真的很不舒服，因为你希望我们彼此相爱，永远不需要这样做。

You know, it's like, you think the person who shouts you every day makes you cry. No, no, no. It's the person who's really silent and calm that if they lost it, you'd be heartbroken because you don't expect it from them. And I think this all gets difficult when we're talking about money because money creates power dynamics, it creates, especially in couples, it creates power dynamics in families. I mean, amount of friends I've had recently who've both men and women have had to ask their partner to sign a prenup before they get married and it's been really uncomfortable because you hope that we love each other and that we wouldn't ever have to do that.

我的朋友们和我谈过，这真的很艰难。你对人们在结婚前必须签署婚前协议有什么看法？

My friends have talked to me, that's really hard. What's your take on people having to sign a prenup before they get married?

我认为你应该总是在结婚前签署婚前协议。哇。我认为你应该提前进行所有需要进行的艰难对话，而这只是另一个艰难对话。你知道婚前协议会在结婚前告诉你的是：你们对生活有相同的愿景吗？你们在乎同样的事情吗？

I think you should always sign a prenup before you get married. Wow. I think you should have every hard conversation that you need to have upfront and that is just another hard conversation. You know what a prenup will tell you before you get married is do you guys have the same vision for life? Do you guys care about the same things?

你们俩如何处理之间的冲突？你们能在重要部分妥协吗？所以即使不关乎金钱，比如你的银行账户反映了你有多愿意进行艰难对话。你拖延得越久，越不去进行这些对话，你拥有的钱就会越少。我认为婚前协议就是一个完美的例子。

How do you handle conflict between the two of you? Can you guys compromise on the important part? So even if it's not about the money, like your bank account is a reflection of how willing you are to have difficult conversations. The more you delay and the more you don't have, the less money you'll have. And I think a prenup is a perfect example.

你可以把它当作受害者，说，他要求我签婚前协议，这意味着他不想和我在一起，或者她不想和我在一起。或者你可以说，这是一个机会，让我们决定我们共同的生活会是什么样子，什么是他的，什么是我的，什么是我们共同的。所以我非常主张双方都签署婚前协议，真正理清你们的财务状况，并提前进行关键对话。话虽如此，我真的尽量不提供一对一的个性化建议。我敢肯定你也差不多是这样。

You can take it as a victim and say, he's asking me for a prenup, that means that he does not want to stay with me or she does not want to stay with me. Or you could say, This is an opportunity for us to determine what our life will look like together and what is his and what is mine and what is ours together. And so I am a big proponent of get that prenup on either side, get real clear on your finances and have a crucial conversation upfront. Now that said, I really try to never give like individualized one on one advice. I'm sure you're kind of the same.

所以这就像是面对那个巨大的你。但你知道当我哥哥和新嫂子来找我时，他们问，结婚后应该开联名银行账户还是各自分开的账户？我说，你们应该先进行一次艰难的对话。你们应该互相询问为什么想要各自分开，因为你们真正在讨论的是什么？其实是：我是否信任你的消费方式？

So it's like here's the big giant you. But you know when my brother and new sister-in-law came to me, they were like, should you once you get married, should you have a joint bank account or should you have a separate bank account? I said, you should have a hard talk first. And you should ask each other why you want each separate segment because what is the real conversation you're having? It's, do I trust your spending?

我们能否良好沟通？你会不会让我陷入尴尬的境地？你会不会告诉我不能做某件事？我是个成年人。别告诉我什么不能做。

Are we gonna communicate well? Are you going to put me in a weird situation? Are you going to tell me I can't do something? I'm an adult. Don't tell me what I can't do.

所以这其实不是关于钱的问题，而是关于你们能否达成共识。

And so it's not really about money. It's about can you get on the same page?

哦，是的。

Oh yes.

所以先别管银行账户了，对吧？真正的问题在于你们能否进行艰难的对话。在我看来没有对错之分。有些人说他们仍然通过Venmo互相转账给伴侣。所以他们会觉得那样很糟糕。

And so forget the bank account, right? It's really can you have a hard conversation. And there's no right or wrong in my opinion. Some people say they still Venmo each other, their partners back and forth. So they're like, that's awful.

你怎么能那样做？这取决于你自己。我很多金融界的大佬朋友会说，结婚了就要开联名账户，这是理所当然的。但我要说，即使开了联名账户，如果你们不愿意就此沟通，也可能会带来巨大的问题。

How could you do that? That is up to you. A lot of my like, you know, big friends in finance would say, if you get married, you have a joint bank account. That's what you do. And I would say even having a joint bank account can be hugely problematic if you're not willing to talk about it.

完全正确。不，我太喜欢这种务实的态度了，而且我一直很欣赏你总是这么务实，因为这就是人们实际面对的问题。你说得对，这不是钱的问题，而是关于权力、自主权、责任感，所有这些都是，但钱却成了冲突的核心点。你说得对，仅仅拥有联名账户并不意味着你们有更好的兼容性。如果你们没有进行过艰难的对话，那根本毫无意义。

Absolutely. No, love how practical that gets and I love how practical you always get because that is what people are dealing with. And you're right, it's not about money, it's about power, it's about agency, it's about accountability, it's about all these other things, but money becomes the central point of conflict. And you're right, just because you have a joint bank account doesn't mean you have better compatibility. That means nothing if you haven't had the hard conversation.

我认为尽早进行关于金钱和期望的艰难对话非常重要。回到你早先的观点，我一直在思考已婚夫妇最终如何赚更多钱这个想法真的很重要。我发现最近很多人寻找的是商业伙伴，而不是生活伴侣。也就是说，当他们寻找共度一生的人时，他们某种程度上在观察：这个人能帮助我建立事业吗？这与爱情的本质形成了非常有趣的差异。

And I think having the hard conversation early about money and expectations is so important. Going back to your earlier point, which I was thinking about that idea that it's really important how married couples end up making more money. I found a lot of people recently looking for a business partner, not a partner. So like when they're looking for someone to be with, they're kind of seeing, will this person help me build my business? Which is a really interesting, you know, difference to what love is.

你对寻找生活伴侣或商业伙伴有什么看法？

What's your take on finding a partner or a business partner?

这很有趣。不过，难道一切最终都会回到原点不是很奇妙吗？如果我们回想婚姻最初的契约，它本质上是商业交易。是的。当时是'你的家族能否促进我的家族发展，我们将以某种方式达成契约协议'。

That's fascinating. Well, mean, isn't it funny how everything just comes full circle? So if we think about the original contract of marriage, it was business. Yeah. It was can your family further my family and we will come into contractual agreement one way or the other.

在印度和英国是如此，在美国这里也是如此。所以婚姻过去是一份商业合同，在某种程度上现在仍然是，因为它是一份政府合同。然后在很长一段时间里——其实也不算太长，大概一两代人的时间——它变成了关于爱情。

It was that way in in India and The UK, it was that way here in The US. And so that use marriage was a business contract and in some ways it still really is because it's a government contract. And so and then for a long time well, not that long really. What? A generation or two, it became love.

它变得只关乎爱情。这实际上是一个新的建构。所以我认为有趣的是，现在又回到了伙伴关系的概念。我个人有个偏见：我认为你应该嫁给那个你相信当你被关进第三世界监狱时，会想办法救你出来的人。

It was about love only. That's actually a new construct. And so I think it's interesting it's coming back to this idea of partnership. Now I have a personal bias. I think that you should marry somebody if you believe that they will help get you out of a third world prison when you get imprisoned.

明白吗？这个人是否会在你困难时拯救你？对我来说，这就是良好的伙伴关系。我完全信任这个人能托付生命，并希望与他们共同建设。是的，我爱他们，但这不是那种'即使他们虐待我，即使世界末日，我仍然爱他们'的受害式爱情，就像如今书中看到的某些描写。

Know? Is this gonna be your person who will save you in your times of difficulty? That's to me what a good partnership is. It's I trust this human with my life implicitly and I want to build with them. Yes, I love them but it's not this like, oh this victimized like I love them even if they beat me and if the world ends and some of the things we see in books today.

而是：不，这是我选择与之共度时光的人类，我信任他们的能力和人品。这是我个人的看法。另一方面，与配偶共事确实很困难。我们在很多方面都这样做。我丈夫负责我们基金的投资板块、控股公司以及我们的风险投资基金。

It's like, no, is this my chosen human who we're going to go through time together and I trust their ability and who they are. So that's for me personally. The flip side of that is, it's really hard working with your spouse. We both do it in many ways. My husband runs, our investment side of our fund, our holding company and our our venture capital fund.

我们在一起最艰难的第一年就是新婚第一年。我们结婚时年龄稍长，所以我真的不懂如何妥协，他也不懂。第一年对我们来说非常艰难，我听说这很常见。第二艰难的一年是我们开始一起创业的第一年，我当时就想：大错特错，赶紧撤退吧。

And our first hardest year together was our first year of marriage. We got married a little older and so I didn't really know how to compromise, he didn't either. It was really hard for us our first year and I hear that's a common thing. Our second hardest year was the first year that we got into business together and I was like, Huge mistake. Pull the chute.

这实在太难了。为什么？因为任何时候你把两样东西靠得更近，它们会怎样？产生摩擦啊，宝贝。这很自然。

This is so hard. Why? Because anytime you put two things closer together, what do they do? Friction, baby. It's just natural.

这是物理定律。所以我不知道自己为什么惊讶，但我确实惊讶了。等我们熬过第一年后，我意识到：当初我是怎么做到和一个无法理解我工作处境的人相处的？现在他是我重要的支撑，我也是他的支柱。所以现在我个人比较推崇这种模式。

This is physics. And so I don't know why I was surprised, but I was surprised. And then I realized after we got through the first year, I was like, how did I ever do it where I had a human who couldn't understand some of the stuff I was going through at work? He is such a crutch for me now and I am for him. So now I'm kind of a proponent of my personal bias.

没有什么比真正理解配偶的职业并以某种方式交织在一起更好的了。你觉得呢？

There's nothing better than having the ability to truly understand what your spouse does for a living and intertwining it some way. What do you think?

我们在一起很久之后才共同创业。我有几点体会：我从来不想让妻子在我事业起步阶段支持我的工作。原因很明确：我见过很多男性在经历三十年成功后在50多岁非常成功，而他们的伴侣基本上变成了助理。

We were together for a long time before we launched a business together. There's a couple of things I have that I take. It's almost like, so I never wanted my wife to support my work when my career was taking off in the beginning. And my reason for that was very clear. I knew a lot of men who are extremely successful in their 50s after three decades of success, where their partners had become basically their assistants.

到了50岁，他们的伴侣开始觉得自己没有实现梦想，因为感觉没有发挥潜力。而男方已经完成了人生清单上的所有目标，感觉自己是个冠军。但如今50岁了，他们才开始意识到这个问题。因为我见过太多这种情况，加上我对人生目标的思考，我很清楚每个人都有自己的使命。就像每个人都有自己的价值贡献，这让他们感到自己很重要。

And at the age of 50, their partner had now felt that they didn't achieve their dreams because they felt they didn't achieve their potential. And the guy had gone off and ticked off every box on his checklist and felt like a champion. But now at 50, they're having this realization. And because I saw so much of that and my own work on purpose, I was really clear that everyone has their own purpose. Like everyone has their own offering that makes them feel significant.

无论你多爱一个人，无论别人怎么说，你不能把自己的价值完全系于他人身上。你必须拥有自己觉得有意义的事情——可能是你的孩子、你的事业、执教大学篮球队等等，这不一定是创业。所以我当时一直鼓励瑞莉的就是找到属于她自己的天地。

And no matter how much you love someone, no matter what anyone says, you cannot say that your significance is just tied to someone else's significance. You have to have something that feels like your own thing that feels meaningful to you. That could be your child, it could be your business, it could be coaching the college basketball team, right? This isn't about building a business. And so all I would encourage Riley to do was to find her thing.

我最喜欢的事情就是给她安排女生约会。我会和刚认识的女性成为朋友，然后把她们介绍给我妻子。她会说：‘你在搞什么鬼，你这个怪人？’但她们现在是她最好的朋友了，所以我想我做得没错。不客气。

My favorite thing was setting her up on girl dates. I'd become friends with women just introduced them to my wife. She'd be like, what are you doing you weirdo? But they're now her best friend so I guess I did. You're welcome.

没错，就是这样。但我的全部目标只是，我不想让她陷入‘杰伊在做很酷的事情，我就帮帮他吧’的陷阱里。然后感觉自己没有找到自我。

Yeah, exactly. But my whole goal was just, I don't want her to fall into the trap of Jay's doing really cool stuff. I'm just gonna help him. Yep. And then feel like she didn't find herself.

而且你会发现女性比男性更容易这样。男性通常更独立，他们要么清楚自己的事，要么根本不想参与。而她从我遇见她的那一刻起就如此有才华、有技能、令人惊叹，我当时就想，拉迪完全可以拥有一个电视节目并且大获成功——她就是这样的人。充满磁性，活力四射。是的，她就是那么讨人喜欢，对吧？

And you see women do this more than men doing this. Men generally are more independent, they know their thing or they don't wanna be involved anyway. And she was so talented and skilled and amazing from the moment I met her that I was like, I mean like Radhi could have a TV show and it would crush like she's just the most Kinda does. Magnetic electric. Yeah, she's just so lovable, right?

所以我就想，她值得拥有完整的自我，而她也随着时间的推移发现了这一点。当我们创立Junie时，我们都非常了解彼此的优点和缺点，但我们从不一起开会。一次都没有？一次都没有。所以她负责所有关于口味、风味特征、混合物配方等方面的会议。

So I was like, she deserves to have all herself and she found out as time went on. When we found a Junie, we were both at such a strength in our knowledge of each other's strengths and weaknesses but we don't take any meetings together. Zero? Zero. So she does all the formulation meetings of the taste, the flavor profile, the mixtures, all of that.

所有与颜色、包装以及其他相关的事情都由她负责，而我则处理所有商业和营销的电话会议。所以我们甚至从不在同一个电话会议上。这对我们很有效，因为它实际上分担了工作，因为我相信她，她能搞定——我的品味很基础。你知道，就像我遇见拉迪时对柚子菠萝一无所知，或者那边那个桃子口味的产品，我完全没概念。

She does everything to do with the colors and the packaging and everything else and I'll do all the business and marketing calls. And so we're never even on the same calls. And that works for us because it actually splits up the work because I'm like, oh, I trust you, you can nail like my palette is basic. You know, it's like I knew nothing about Yuzu Pineapple when I met Radhi or you've got the peach one over there. Like I had no clue.

她真正精通她那部分，我也真正精通我这部分，这对我们来说配合得很好。但我們是在我们关系建立了十年之后才创立这个的。所以我们对彼此有很深的理解，这让分工对我们来说非常顺利。

She really gets that and I really get my part and that works well for us. But we founded this like ten years into our relationship. And so there was such an understanding of each other that it split it up nicely for us.

你知道吗，你这么说出来，我就在想，哦，这其实在很多方面都很相似，因为我们起初产生摩擦的原因就是我们都是船长。两个船长是行不通的。不行，绝对不行。情况就是这样，你知道，我当时在努力，他也在努力，而现在他完全负责我们的投资业务，嗯，得夸夸他。

You know what, you say it out loud like that, I'm like, oh, that's actually similar in a lot of ways because our reasons for friction in the beginning were because we were two captains. Two captains don't work. No. No. It's so, you know, I was on there trying to he was trying to and now he runs our investment business entirely and like, you know, shout out to him.

他特别不好意思，因为我总爱夸他。但你知道，他管理的2022年基金是同类产品中表现最好的之一，大家总是祝贺我，而我总是说，说实话，我其实没做什么。

He gets so embarrassed because I love bragging on him. But, you know, he has like one of the top performing funds for his whole 2022 vintage and people always say congratulations and I'm always like, honestly, I did so little for that.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，我擅长的是前期引流，把人吸引进来，而他真正擅长执行，他是个猎手，会穷追不舍。所以你说得对，现在想想，我每周只和他开两次会，但其他所有事情都是他在运营。

You know, I'm I'm good at like top of funnel, bring people in and then he is really good at execution and he's a hunter, he chases things down. And so you're right, now that we now that think about it, I'm on two calls a week with him but he runs everything else.

嗯。

Yeah.

而且他做得比我好多了。实际上，我们唯一让人头疼的时候就是我总想插手某些事，他就会说，交给我，交给我，别在这边打扰我。

And does it much better and actually, our only annoying spots are when I'm like weaseling in on something that like, he's like, I got it. I got it. Like, don't bother me over here.

所以

And so

你知道，我常常就是那个爱插手的人。

it's it's, you know, I'm the I'm the weasel in often.

我就是那种犹豫不决的人。你呢？我宁愿说，等一下。我们这七个月来一直在忙这个项目，你人都在哪儿？现在你倒想发表意见了。

I'm that hesitant. Are you? I'd rather be like, wait a minute. Where have you been for the seven months we've been working on this? Now you wanna give your opinions and everything.

你。你让我感觉好多了。是的。我也是那种人。没错。

You. You're you're making me feel better. Yeah. I'm that guy too. Yeah.

天啊。

Oh gosh.

就像，你从哪儿冒出来的？我一直这么努力地在做这件事。

Like, where did you turn up from? Like, I've been working so hard on this.

是啊。他会说，这是我给你发了四次的总结，现在你想讨论了？但你知道，我们有时候也挺讨人喜欢的，对吧？

Yeah. He says he'll be like, here's the summary I sent you four times and now you wanna talk about it? But, you know, we are endearing sometimes, you know?

有时候是的。但这正是关键所在，对吧？是信任。对我来说，我只是不想我和拉迪的私人时间变成谈公事的时间。哦，那是个人的选择。

Sometimes, yeah. But that's what's so important, right? It's trust. To me, I just don't want my private time with Radhi to become business time. Oh, And that's a personal choice.

我不会看不起这样做的人。我不认为这是，我不认为那对生意最好或怎样，但对我最好。我娶拉迪是因为我喜欢和她在一起。我娶她不是为了我们能一起讨论怎么赚更多钱。那根本不是，那不是我们在一起的原因。

I don't look down on someone who does it. I don't think it's, I don't think that's the best for business or whatever, but it's the best for me. I married Radhi because I like spending time with her. I didn't marry her so that we could talk about how to make more money together. Like that just wasn't, that's not why we're together.

这并非好事或坏事，只是我们的本性如此。对我们来说很合适。

And that's not a bad thing or a good thing, it's just who we are. It works for us.

确实如此。实际上我很少遇到类似的情侣。虽然我现在有很多朋友——可能只是选择偏差——他们确实共同工作，但性格迥异。通常其中一方，我常开玩笑说是更爱玩的那个。他们会说'我们去做点活动吧'，尽管他们工作也很忙碌。

It's true. I actually haven't found a lot of people that are like that. Usually, and now I have a lot of friends, probably just selection bias, who both work together, but they're very different, know. And Usually you have one person who I kind of joke is like more of the fun. They're the one that's like, let's go do activities, let's do whatever, they're still working a lot.

另一方则像我这样的'乐趣海绵'，总是在工作。如果没有我的开心果伴侣，我可能永远都在工作。这种平衡很微妙。我和Tinder创始人肖恩·拉德成了朋友，明晚就要见他。每次交谈最有趣的是，他掌握着大量关于恋爱成功时机的数据。他说现有约会算法的核心问题在于：我们基于算法选择的条件实际上无助于获得幸福。

And then you have sort of the fun sponge which is me, you know, that's always working and without my fun guy, I would just be working all the time. Yeah. And so it is this this balance. I mean, I've become friends with Sean Rad who's the founder of Tinder and what's so interesting every time I talk to him, we're gonna see him tomorrow night, is that he has all this data on when relationships are the most successful. He's like the problem with a lot of these algorithms and how they do dating is that actually the things that we choose do not lead to happiness.

哦，确实。

Oh, sure.

比如相似性。根据肖恩和他父亲的研究，相似性实际上并不会带来幸福的恋爱关系——我觉得这个观点很符合实际。

Such as similarity. Similarity actually doesn't lead to us happy of relationships according to Sean and his dad and that tracks for me.