加博尔·马特：为什么你的创伤表现为内疚、恐惧和羞耻，以及如何从过去中解脱

让我给你讲个故事。

So let me tell you a story.

我想给你看看我戴的这个手链。

I wanna show you this bracelet that I'm wearing.

真漂亮。

It's beautiful.

确实很漂亮。

It is beautiful.

我从来没想过自己会戴手链，但就在认识你之后不久，有人送了我这个。

And I never thought I'd ever be wearing a bracelet, but I was given this just shortly after the time that I met you.

这个来自一个叫海达瓜依的地方。

And this comes from a place called Haida Gwaii.

海达瓜依是我在不列颠哥伦比亚省北部居住的岛屿，过去也被称为海达瓦。

And Haida Gwaii's islands in Northern British Columbia where I live, they used to be known as well, they used to be known as Haida Wai.

在英国殖民之后，它们被称为夏洛特皇后群岛。

Then with the British colonization, they became known as Queen Charlotte Islands.

这真有趣，是的。

That's really funny Yeah.

因为几个月前，我曾在伦敦向2100名英国人演讲。

Because I was speaking in London once or actually, a couple of months ago to an audience of 2,100 Britishers.

我当时问：‘在场有人知道女王夏洛特是谁吗？’

And I said, does anybody in the this audience know who the hell Queen Charlotte was?

没人知道。

Nobody knew.

完全不知道。

No idea.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I knew that.

据说，她是一位德国公主，嫁给了英王乔治三世，那位在美洲独立时在位的‘疯王’乔治。

Apparently, she was some German princess who married King George, the mad King George, who was king of England when America became independent.

总之，英国人来了。

Anyway, so the British came.

他们把它命名为夏洛特女王群岛。

They named it Queen Charlotte Islands.

突然间，这些祖先在那里生活了大约一万三千年之久的原住民，不再生活在名为‘海达戈’（意为人民的土地）的地方，而是生活在‘女王的肩膀地’上。

All of a sudden, these indigenous people whose ancestors have been living there for something like thirteen thousand years, All of sudden, they were living on not on Haida Goa anymore, which means land of the people, but they were living in Queen's shoulder land.

因此，我那时正在为海达人举办一场创伤工作坊。

So I was giving a trauma workshop there for Haida people.

就在那时，我送了他这条手链。

That's when I gave him this bracelet.

这些雕刻的含义是：这些话语很重要。

And the meaning of the carvings means these words matter.

在为期两天的海达人群体创伤工作坊即将结束时，一位至少七十多岁的女士走了过来。

At the end of two days, almost at the very end of the trauma workshop for the Haida people, a woman in her seventies at least comes up.

她说：我五岁之前还能说一口流利的海达语，但后来就忘了。

And she said, I used to speak perfect Haida until I was five years old, and then I forgot my language.

即使我成年后重返学校学习我的母语，这些词语也难以在我脑海中留下痕迹。

And even when I've gone back to school as an adult to learn my native language, the words don't stick in my brain.

于是我问她：‘你经历了什么？’

And I said, what happened to you?

那么，她到底经历了什么？

Well, what happened to her?

她被送进了寄宿学校，那些由教会主要运营的寄宿学校，原住民儿童被迫进入，而她竟然敢说自己的母语。

She went to these residential school residential schools where the indigenous kids were forced to go, run by the churches mostly, and she dared speak her native language.

老师拿起一根棍子，无情地殴打她，打遍她的身体、头部和四肢。

And the teacher took a stick and beat her mercilessly in her body, in her head, in her limbs.

哦，在我自己的成长年代，当我还是不列颠哥伦比亚省的青少年时，就曾见过这样的原住民孩子。

Oh, native kids in in my own lifetime is when I was a teenager in British Columbia.

一个四岁的印第安孩子。

A four year old Indian Indian.

他们不是印第安人。

They're not Indians.

原住民加拿大人。

Indigenous Canadian.

一个第一民族的孩子因为说自己的语言而被别针扎了舌头。

A First Nation kid spoke their own language that have a pin stuck in her tongue.

所以我对她说：你看，你正在失去你的语言。

So they literally so I said to her, look, you're losing your language.

是你的身体在保护你吗？

Was your organism protecting you?

是你的恐惧系统在告诉你，如果再那样做，你可能活不下去。

It was your fear system telling you that if you do that again, you know, you might not survive.

因为她为此憎恨自己。

Because she hated herself for it.

她因为焦虑而憎恨自己。

She hated herself hate herself for the anxiety.

她恨自己，因为我太被动了，她说。

She hated herself because I was so passive, she said.

我说过，被动性是机体保护你的唯一方式。

I said that passivity was the organism's only way to protect you.

是的。

Mhmm.

因为如果你反抗或坚持使用自己的语言，你可能会遭遇更糟糕的后果。

Because had you fought back or had you asserted your right to speak your language, much worse would have happened to you.

所以这种恐惧保护了她，但它转化成了焦虑——不再是针对具体事物的恐惧，而变成了对整个世界的恐惧。

So that fear protected her, but it translates into anxiety where it's no longer fear of a specific thing, it's just fear of the world.

是的。

Mhmm.

现在焦虑的发生率如此之高，因为我们有一个应对恐惧的系统。

Now the the rate of anxiety so we have a system for fear.

对年幼的孩子来说，最大的危险是失去关系。

And the the greatest danger to a young child is the loss of relationship.

因为没有关系，我们就无法生存。

Because without relationship, we can't survive.

我的意思是，我们是保护不了自己的，我们毫无防备，脆弱无助。

I mean, we're protect we're defenseless, we're vulnerable, we're helpless.

因此，失去保护性的成年人，是孩子最大的恐惧。

So the loss of protective adults is the biggest fear that the child has.

在这个社会里，许多父母因为各种压力——经济的、社会的、种族的、政治的，以及我们所处的这种脱节文化——无法像他们需要的、想做的那样陪伴孩子，父母无法给予孩子所需的支持。

In this society, a lot of parents can't be there for their kids the way they need to be, the way they want to be because of the stresses, economic, social, racial, political, whatever they're going through, just the nature of the disconnected culture that we live in, parents are not there for their kids the way their children need to be.

这种恐惧演变为一种持久的焦虑，让我们觉得永远不安全。

The fear becomes chronic anxiety, that we're never safe.

而这种焦虑现在成了我们自我认知的一部分。

And now that becomes part of our sense of self.

所以你说的这种情感上的不安全感，实际上就是童年早期的恐惧：当孩子感到害怕时，他们会寻求帮助。

So what you say but but this lack of emotional safety, what it actually is is that early childhood fear is when a child is afraid, they will ask for help.

但当孩子反复得不到帮助，成年人因为太忙、太有压力、太受创伤、太心不在焉，或被育儿专家的言论洗脑而忽视孩子的哭喊时，孩子就会得到一个信息：这里没有安全。

But when repeatedly the help is not available and the adults don't come because they're too busy, too stressed, too traumatized, too preoccupied, too downtrodden, or too propagandized by parenting experts to ignore their kids' cries, the child gets the message that there's no safety.

因此，原本旨在引发求助的恐惧，如今变成了慢性焦虑。

So that original fear that's meant to result in a cry for help now becomes chronic anxiety.

因此，未被处理的恐惧会根深蒂固地转化为焦虑。

So fear not dealt with gets ingrained as anxiety.

它不再与任何具体事物相关。

It's no longer going about anything specific.

只是活在这个世界上就成为了一种恐惧，而你本不该如此。

It's just being in the world is a source of fear, which you shouldn't be.

这几乎让人感觉，正如你所说，本应向外发出求救的呼喊

It almost feels like, as you were saying that what should result in a cry for help externally

是的。

Yeah.

变成了内心持续不断的呼喊

Becomes a perpetual cry internally

正是如此。

That's exactly it.

却缺乏一种能够自助的感觉。

Without a feeling of being able to help yourself.

没错。

Exactly.

你知道披头士的那首歌《Help》吗？

You know that Beatles song, Help?

是的。

Yeah.

帮帮我，我需要某个人，不只是任何人。

Help I need somebody, not just anybody.

约翰·列侬唱道，他是个深受创伤的孩童，你知道，他出生后父亲就离开了他，几年后母亲也抛弃了他。

And John Lennon sings, And he was a very traumatized child, as you know, whose father left him when he was born and whose mother abandoned him a few years later.

然后他在歌里唱道：当我年轻时，比今天年轻得多，我从不需要任何人的帮助。

And then he sings in his song, when I was younger, so much younger than today, I never needed anybody's help in any way.

但那些日子已经一去不复返了。

But now those days are gone.

我不再那么自信了。

I'm not so self assured.

所以我打开了门，你知道的，请帮帮我。

So I opened the door, you know, please help me.

不。

No.

事情不是这样的。

That's not the way it was.

他当时更年轻，比现在年轻得多，他需要每个人在各方面给予帮助。

He was younger, so much younger than today, he needed everybody's help in every way.

但由于帮助无法获得，他不得不封闭自己，把自己变成一个自我创造、自我依赖的人。

But because the help wasn't available, he had to shut himself down and make himself sort of like a self created, self sufficient person.

直到后来他才意识到，你知道吗？

And only later on does he realize, you know what?

我其实真的需要帮助。

I actually do need help.

但他从来就不是那个不需要帮助的人。

But he was never that person who didn't need help.

他只是认为自己不需要帮助。

He just believed he didn't need help.

他为什么会这么认为？

Why did he believe that?

这是一种适应方式。

As an adaptation.

是的。

Mhmm.

因为帮助根本不存在。

Because the help wasn't there.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们中有太多人，最害怕做的事情就是寻求帮助。

So so many of us one of the biggest things that people are afraid to do is to ask for help.

是的。

Mhmm.

当我举办工作坊时，每当有人主动提供帮助，我的本能反应就是：‘哦，不用了。’

When I give workshops and I I myself is my automatic reaction when somebody offers help, oh, no.

没关系。

It's okay.

我很好。

I'm fine.

尽管其实非常需要帮助。

Even though the help would be very welcome.

你知道的吧？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得这种情况怎么样？

How do you find that?

因为我觉得今天有太多人身边都有一位拒绝接受帮助的人。

Because I feel so many people today have someone in their life who's closed off from help.

是的。

Yeah.

可能是你的伴侣，可能是孩子，也可能是父母。

It might be your partner, it might be a child, it might be a parent.

是的。

Yeah.

我们每个人生活中都有这样一个人，在我们有限的觉察力下，能注意到某人非常封闭，拒绝接受帮助。

We all have someone in our life who in our limited capacity but a little bit of awakening we can notice that someone is really closed and won't receive help.

你该如何帮助那些拒绝帮助、不承认自己需要帮助的人呢？毕竟他们可能基于你刚才说的那些经历形成了这样的立场。

How do you help someone who is rejecting help or not accepting that they may need it because of the position they've experienced based on what you just said?

我曾经也认为自己就是这样的人。

I myself used to believe I was one of these people.

我以前真的相信，你能相信吗？

I actually used to believe, can you believe this?

我曾经以为别人都可能有压力，但我不可能有。

I used to believe that everybody else could be stressed, but I couldn't be.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我以前也有这种感觉。

I I used to feel like that too.

我知道，我以前总是

Know, I I used

认为我可以帮助所有人，但不需要帮助自己。

to believe that I can help I can help everybody, but I don't need to help myself.

你知道吗？

You know?

曾经有一段时间，我总是

There used to be a time when I used

也有这种感觉。

to feel that too.

是的。

Yeah.

那你如何帮助这样的人呢？

So how do you help somebody that?

你通过接受他们此刻的现状来帮助他们，而不是强行把自己的帮助推给他们。

You help them by accepting that that's how it is for them right now and not trying to push your help on them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为当你试图强行提供帮助时，只会引发抵触。

Because when you try and push help, you're just gonna get resistance.

所以，如果你能承受，你可以陪伴在他们身边，保持开放，但不要强迫或试图向他们证明他们需要帮助，生活会教会他们。

So you if you can handle it, you can be around them and be open, but not insist or try and prove to them that they need help, life will teach them.

如今我冥想时，会做慈悲冥想，嗯。

When I meditate these days, I do the compassion meditation Mhmm.

它说，愿我能够以耐心、理解、力量和决心面对并克服生命中不可避免的挫折、挑战和失败。

Which says, you know, may I face and overcome all of life's inevitable setbacks and challenges and failures with patience, understanding, strength and determination.

愿我能够以慈悲、道德、正直、智慧和觉知超越这些困境？

And may I rise above them with compassion and morality and integrity and wisdom and and mindfulness?

如果我们能以慈悲的心态注视他人，而不试图向他们证明他们并不认为自己需要的东西，那么总有一天，生活会带来一个挑战，让他们意识到，是的，他们确实需要帮助。

If we can stare on people compassionately without trying to prove to them that they need something that they don't believe they need, then at some point, life will bring a challenge that may prove to them that, yeah, they they need help.

如果你依然在他们身边，保持开放，他们就会向你寻求帮助。

And if you're still around, open, then they'll reach out to you.

如果你试图说服他们、拉他们过来、向他们证明、强加于他们。

If you try and convince them, bring them over, prove it to them, force it on them.

我相信我曾经这样做过。

And I I believe I've done that.

我对我自己的家人这样做过。

I've done it with my own family.

我也对其他人这样做过。

I've done it with others.

你只会激起他们的抗拒。

You just invite resistance.

所以帮助他人最好的方式，就是在帮助被主动请求之前不要去帮助。

So the best way to help people is not to help unless the help is invited.

而这几乎正是我们大多数人不想听的，因为我们又想这么做。

And that's almost what most of us don't want to hear because we want to again Yeah.

回到我们之前的观点，我们希望立刻修复、解决，让一切变得美好而完美。

Going back to our earlier point, we want to fix and solve and make everything nice and perfect right now.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，这也是一种创伤的形式。

And I guess that is also a form of trauma.

我们之所以如此渴望，背后一定有什么原因。

There's something there as to why we want that.

当我写到容易患上慢性疾病的人时，通常指的是像自身免疫性疾病这类人群。

When and when I write about people who are prone for chronic illness, it's often people like like autoimmune disease, for example.

这常常是——而且这不仅仅是我的发现。

It's often and and this is not just my own finding.

其他研究者也发现了这一点：有些人倾向于忽视自己的情感需求，却 compulsively 关注他人的情感需求。

Other researchers have found this as well, that there are people who tend to ignore their own emotional needs and are compulsively concerned with the emotional needs of others.

他们往往相信‘正常’这个神话。我引用了一篇讣告，讣告对我来说非常有趣，因为它们常常将那些我认为正是导致一个人死亡的特质列为值得赞扬的品质。

And they tend to believe that in the myth of normal, I quote an an obituary, and obituaries are really interesting to me because they often highlight as laudable qualities the very things that I think contributed to a person's death.

我们来谈谈这些吧。

Let's talk about those.

是的。

Yeah.

十二年前，一位澳大利亚护士写了一本书，名为《临终之人五大遗憾》。

There was a book written by an Australian nurse twelve years ago now called the top five regrets of dying people.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她曾经在临终关怀领域工作，正如你在介绍中提到的，我也是在与临终者打交道。

And she she like, I used to work in palliative care, working with dying people, as you mentioned in the introduction.

七年里，我担任温哥华医院大型临终关怀项目的医疗协调员，负责照顾临终病人。

And for seven years, I was the medical coordinator of big palliative care in the dying dying people at Vancouver Hospital.

这位护士也是一名临终关怀工作者，她写了这本书，记录了那个时代之前人们临终前的五大遗憾。

And this nurse, also a palliative care health worker, wrote this book, the top five regret the top regrets of people who died before that time.

你知道是什么吗？

You know what it is?

他们没有做自己，一生都在努力取悦他人。

That they weren't themselves, that they spent their whole life trying to please others.

这是最大的遗憾。

That's the top regret.

现在，这个讣告，你得相信我，我不是在编造。

Now this this obituary, you have to believe that I'm not making this up.

这是一位加拿大医生，72岁时因癌症去世。

This is a physician in Canada who died aged 72 of cancer.

讣告中写道，西德尼和他的母亲有着极其特殊的关系，这种纽带贯穿了他们生活的方方面面，直到她去世。

And the obituary says, Sidney and his mother had an incredibly special relationship, a bond that was apparent in all aspects of their lives until her death.

作为一位已婚并有年幼子女的男子，西德尼每天都会与父母共进晚餐。

As a married man with young children, Sidney would have dinner with his parents every day.

然后他会回家，他的妻子罗莎琳和三个孩子正等着他，准备一起享用另一顿晚餐。

Then he would go home as his wife Rosalyn and their three children waited for him with yet another dinner to eat and to enjoy.

为了不辜负生命中的两位女性，悉尼多年来每天吃两顿饭，直到体重逐渐增加，开始引起怀疑。

Not wanting to disappoint either woman in his life, Sydney kept eating two dinners a day for years until gradual weight gain began to raise suspicions.

这位男士深受两种致命信念的困扰，我说的致命，就是字面意义上的致命。

Now this man suffered from two fatal beliefs, and when I say fatal, I mean fatal.

一种是他对别人的失败负有责任，另一种是他从不让任何人失望。

One is that he was responsible for other people fail, and the other is that he was never disappointed anybody.

是的。

Mhmm.

现在，我们中有太多人过着这样的生活。

Now, so many of us go through life like that.

是的。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Mhmm.

实际上，我对你的感受不负责任。

Actually, I'm not responsible for how you feel.

我对自己的行为、言辞、所作所为和所说的话负责。

I'm responsible for how I act, for how I speak, what I do, and what I say.

是的。

Mhmm.

我对你的反应感受不负责任。

I'm not responsible for how you feel in response.

是的。

Mhmm.

当你在温哥华联系我时，如果我当时不想见你，但整晚都没睡，比如因为有其他事情要处理，或者要照顾某人。

When you were in Vancouver and you contacted me, and if I hadn't feel like seeing you, but I hadn't slept all night, say, because I was up with some other duty or looking after somebody.

如果我因为害怕让你失望，不想让你感到难过，而答应了见面喝咖啡，那对我意味着什么？

And if I had said yes, and still come met met you for coffee, because I had fear of disappointing you, and because I I didn't want you to feel disappointed, what would that have meant for me?

那只会让我更加疲惫，而且我可能会非常怨恨你。

It would have meant for me more fatigue, and probably I would have resented the hell out of you

嗯。

Mhmm.

即使我当时假装你知道吗？

Even though I was pretending to be you know?

你知道吗？

You know?

好的。

K.

谢天谢地。

Thank God.

而另一方面，如果我拒绝了，如果我真实地对你说：杰，对不起。

And you, on the other hand, if I said no, if I was authentic and I said, look, Jay, I'm sorry.

很高兴你来城里了，但我昨晚一夜没睡。

So glad you're in town, but I was up all night.

我只是，你知道，不行。

I just, you know no.

如果你感到受伤，并认为我拒绝了你，那不是我的责任。

If you had felt hurt and perceived yourself as rejected by me, that's not on me.

那是你对我行为的解读。

That's your interpretation of my behavior.

跟我没关系。

Nothing to do with me.

我只是说了我内心的真实想法。

I just said what was true for me.

但那种对让你失望的恐惧，我害怕让你失望，因为我不想失去你的友谊，我真的不想失去你的友谊；但如果我相信，只要我做真实的自己，就会失去杰的友谊，那就会让我一直不真实。

So but that fear of disappointment, I been afraid to disappoint you because I don't wanna lose your friendship and I don't wanna lose your friendship, but if I believe that if I'm authentic, I'm gonna lose Jay's friendship, that's gonna keep me inauthentic.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你从来都不了解我。

And you never know me.

即使你喜欢我，我内心依然会有恐惧。

And even when you like me, there's still gonna be a fear in me.

如果你真的了解我呢？

What if you really knew me?

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

所以这根本行不通。

So it doesn't even work.

对。

Yeah.

但我们总是非常害怕让别人失望。

But we're sort of we're so afraid of disappointing others.

然后有一天，我可能会觉得我们的友谊是不真实的。

And then one day I may feel we have an inauthentic friendship.

没错。

That's right.

因为我能察觉到你没有完全做自己。

Because I can notice that you're not being fully yourself.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我甚至也会有这种感觉。

And then then I can even feel that way.

即使你努力成为我期望你成为的全部，你依然可能让我失望。

You can let me down even by trying to be everything I wanted you to be.

这就是我觉得生活中如此有趣的地方：即使你已经变成了你认为对方希望你成为的样子，你依然可能让对方失望。

That's what I sort of find so fascinating in life is that you can let someone down even after becoming everything you thought they wanted you to be.

没错。

Well, exactly.

回到咖啡的例子吧。

Well, go back to the example of coffee.

如果我对你说，杰伊，抱歉我今天没法做到。

If I said to you, Jay, I'm sorry I can't do it today.

哪一种更尊重你？

Which honors you more?

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果我认为你如此脆弱，无法承受真相，还是通过告诉你真相来尊重你？

If I believe that you're so weak and vulnerable that you can't handle or no, or if I honor you by telling you the truth

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哪种做法更体现对你的尊重？

Which shows you more respect?

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

知道。

Know.

在那里。

There.

这样我就能成为你希望我成为的任何人，却仍然不尊重你。

So that I can be everything you want me to be and still not honor you.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我们对事物的感知和观点竟然可以如此截然不同，这真令人着迷。

It's fascinating how we can be so opposite in our perceptions and viewpoints.

对。

Yeah.

这其中很大一部分也源于内疚，我们之前谈过恐惧，但我想谈谈内疚，因为对。

And a big part of that comes also, we talked about fear but I wanted to talk about guilt because Yeah.

哦，是的，内疚。

Oh yeah, guilt.

内疚。

Guilt.

你对内疚想说什么？

What do you wanna say about guilt?

不，我是想听你说说内疚，但当我想到内疚时，我觉得它是当今世界上许多行为的强大驱动力。

No, well, what I wanna hear from you about guilt but when I think of guilt, I think it's such a strong driver for so many actions in the world today.

确实是。

It is.

我们因过去的某些事感到内疚，因此在未来或现在做出一些原本不会做的事。

We're guilty of something in the past and therefore we do something strange in the future or the present that we wouldn't have done.

我们现在感到内疚，这让我们说出一些并非真心的话，或者一些

We feel guilty right now and that makes us say something that we don't mean or something that

我们正是如此。

we Exactly.

我们如何从内疚的束缚中解脱出来？

How do we untrap ourselves from the trappings of guilt?

很好。

Great.

让我给你讲个故事。

Well, let me tell you a story.

你知道，在《圣经》旧约中，摩西是一个希伯来男孩，出生时法老的占卜师预言，当时出生的某个希伯来男婴将来会崛起并挑战法老。

So, you know, in the Bible, in Old Testament, Moses is, a Hebrew boy born at a time when the pharaoh's soothsayers declare that some Hebrew male born around this time will rise up and challenge the pharaoh.

于是他们决定杀死所有希伯来新生儿，把他们扔进尼罗河。

So they decide to kill all the Hebrew newborns by throwing him into the Nile River.

但摩西的母亲没有把孩子扔进河里，而是把他放在一个蒲草篮里。

But Moses' mother rather than throws the boy into the river but in a ricker basket.

于是摩西顺流而下，被法老的女儿发现并从水中救起，收养了他。

And so Moses flows down the river, and he gets plucked out of the water by the pharaoh's daughter who adopts him.

这个希伯来婴儿因此被收养进王室，像王子一样被对待。

So this Hebrew infant is adopted into the royal court, treated like a prince.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是为什么华特·迪士尼能拍出一部叫《埃及王子》的电影。

That's why Walt Disney could make a film called Prince of Egypt.

你知道的？

You know?

所有这些事的发生，就是为了让华特·迪士尼拍一部电影。

All this happened just so Walt Disney could make a film.

无论如何，还有一段圣经外的传说。

In in any case, there's a extra biblical legend.

它不在圣经里，但这是一个古老的传说。

It's not in the bible, but it's an ancient legend.

你可能会想，这家伙到底在说什么？

And you think, what the heck is this guy talking about?

他刚才问的是内疚，他却在讲诺亚。

He just asked him about guilt, he's talking about No.

我爱这个。

I love this.

这是我最喜欢的那种回答。

This is my favorite type of answer.

好的。

Okay.

当我感到好奇时，我会跟着听下去，因为我不知道你要说什么。

Is when I'm curious, and I I'll I'm following because I don't know where you're going.

好的。

Okay.

太好了。

Great.

但相信我，我待会儿会再回到这个话题上

But believe me, I'm gonna come back to

我相信。

I believe it.

我相信。

I believe it.

我信任你。

I trust you.

所以传说中，摩西还是个幼儿，法老的占卜师预言他将来会构成威胁，而事实也的确如此。

So the legend is that Moses is a toddler and the pharaoh's soothsayer is divine that he might be a danger, which eventually he proves to be.

于是他们决定对他进行一次测试。

So they decide to put him to a test.

他们在他面前放了两件闪闪发光的物品。

They put in front of him two sparkling object.

我不知道你是否记得，但《圣经》中提到摩西有口吃。

Now I don't know if you remember, but in the Bible, Moses has a speech impediment.

是的。

Mhmm.

他的哥哥亚伦必须替他说话。

And it's his brother Aaron who has to do the speaking for him.

他怎么会有语言障碍的？

How does he get the speech impediment?

嗯，法老的占卜师说，这个孩子需要接受检查，于是他们决定对他进行测试。

Well, the pharaoh soothsayers say, well, this boy needs to be examined, and they just had to put him to a test.

他们在他面前放了两件闪闪发光的物品。

And they put in front of him two sparkling objects.

一件是埃及的皇家钻石，另一件是燃烧的煤块，发出耀眼的光芒。

One of them is a royal diamond of Egypt, and the other is a sparkling ember of glowing ember of coal.

如果摩西伸手去拿皇家钻石，就说明他有野心，必须被处死。

Now if Moses reaches for the royal diamond, it means he's got oil ambition, and he needs to be killed.

于是，这个小婴儿开心地盯着这两件闪闪发光的物品，他的手开始朝钻石伸去。

So there's this little toddler delightedly looking at these two scintillating objects, and his hand starts moving towards the diamond.

就在这时，站在他身后的是加百列——顺便说一下，加百列是希伯来语中我名字加博尔的版本——他一把抓住摩西的手，把他的手从钻石旁拉开，放到了煤块上。

At which point standing behind him isn't is Gabriel Gabriel, which is the Hebrew version of my name, Gabor, by the way, and and grabs his hand and takes it away from the diamond and puts it to the coal.

摩西完成了一个孩子常做的动作，抓起煤块，放到嘴边，结果烫伤了嘴唇。

Now Moses finishing the motion that kids will do, picks up the coal, puts it to his mouth, and burns his lips.

这就是他患上语言障碍的原因。

And that's how he develops the speech impediment.

现在我来问你一个问题。

Now here's my question to you.

天使是摩西的朋友还是敌人？

Is the angel Moses' friend or enemy?

新的一年并不意味着抹去过去的你。

A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were.

它意味着尊重你所经历的苦难，并选择你希望如何成长。

It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow.

它意味着允许自己感受那些一直压抑的情绪，并明白寻求帮助是完全可以的。

It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help.

我是迈克·德拉罗查，《神圣课程》的主持人。

I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons.

这个播客为男性提供了一个开放讨论心理健康、悲伤、人际关系以及我们继承却不必重复的模式的空间。

This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat.

在这里，我们放慢脚步，用心倾听，学习如何将脆弱转化为力量，以及疗愈如何在社群中发生，而非孤立无援。

Here, we slow down, we listen, we learn how vulnerability becomes strength, and how healing happens in community, not in isolation.

如果你准备好放下不再服务于你的东西，带着清晰、慈悲与目标迎接新的一年，那么《神圣课程》将是你的疗愈之旅的同行者。

If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey.

收听迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，它在全美排名第一的播客平台iHeart播出。

Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rucha on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

关注迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，立即在免费的iHeart广播应用上开始收听。

Follow sacred lessons with Mike Della Rocha and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

关于爱，你不得不放弃的一个观念是什么？

What is one thing about love you've had to unlearn?

那就是爱是需要争取的。

That it's earned.

那就是爱必须永恒才算数。

That it needs to be forever for it to count.

二月是爱的月份。

February is the month of love.

无论你是在恋爱中、随意约会，还是自豪地单身，这都是反思自己和你真正想要什么的好时机。

Whether you're in a relationship, casually dating, or proudly single, it's a great time to reflect on yourself and what you want.

我是霍普·伍德德，语音播客的主持人。

I'm Hope Woodard, host of the voice over podcast.

这个月的每周，我们都会从各个角度探讨爱。

And each week this month, we're looking at love from every angle.

我不知道该怎么告诉我的伴侣，我在床上想要什么。

I don't know how to tell my partner, like, what I want in bed.

关于浪漫小说，我认为它与其他任何文化类型不同的是，它总是把女性放在首位。

Thing about romantic fiction, I would say, more than any other genre of culture is that it's always put women first.

我的婚姻变得毫无意义。

My marriage stopped making sense.

那种连接感开始变得不对劲。

The connection started to feel off.

对方的行为也开始变得不同了。

The behavior started to feel different.

今年二月，通过收听《Voiceover》来与自己建立联系。

This February, get in touch with yourself by listening to voiceover.

那是 b o y s o b e r。

That's b o y s o b e r.

我只是想，我真希望不会讨厌跟我睡觉的那个人。

I'm like, I would love to not hate the man I'm sleeping with.

我不明白这到底是怎么回事。

I don't know what that's about.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听《Boysober》。

Listen to Boysober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

如果心灵控制是真实的呢？

What if mind control is real?

如果你能控制

If you could control the

你身边任何人的行为，你会过上怎样的生活？

behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

你能通过催眠说服别人买一辆车吗？

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

当你看着你的车时，你会被一种极好的感觉淹没。

When you look at your car, you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

你能催眠别人和你发生关系吗？

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

我给了她一些建议，让她产生性兴奋。

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

你能让人加入你的邪教吗？

Can you get someone to join your cult?

有人用神经语言程序学来接触我的潜意识。

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

神经语言程序学，即NLP，是催眠、语言学和心理学的结合。

NLP, aka neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

粉丝们说，这就像终于拿到了大脑的用户手册。

Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

这关乎意识的工程。

It's about engineering consciousness.

《心灵游戏》讲述了NLP的故事，以及它那群疯狂的追随者，还有那位在新时代公社发明NLP并将其卖给西装革履之人的假医生。

Mind Games is the story of NLP, its crazy cast of Disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

他因谋杀受审，但被判无罪。

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

最大的心灵游戏是什么？

The biggest mind game of all?

NLP可能真的有效。

NLP might actually work.

这太疯狂了。

This is wild.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《心灵游戏》。

Listen to mind games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

他试图做个朋友，但他伤害了他。

He's trying to be a friend, but But he hurt him.

是的

Mhmm.

为了救他的命，不得不伤害他。

Had to hurt him to save his life.

是的

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

他是个朋友。

He was a friend.

是的

Mhmm.

内疚就是这样一种朋友。

Guilt is that kind of a friend.

是的

Mhmm.

明白吗？

Okay?

内疚在童年早期就会出现，并不是因为你做错了什么，而是因为你感觉到自己所做的事情让父母不高兴，而你承受不起这样的后果。

Guilt comes along in early childhood, not because you did anything wrong, but because you sense that whatever you did displeased your parents, and you can't afford to do that.

因此，必须有一种内在机制让你与父母保持亲近。

So there needs to be an internal mechanism that keeps you close to your parents.

比如，它会告诉你：如果你真实地表达愤怒，你就不会被接纳。

That says, for example, if you're authentic and you show your anger, you won't be accepted.

必须有一种内在机制来让你保持正轨。

There better be an internal mechanism to keep you on track.

所以，内疚就这样成了一个说“不”的朋友。

So guilt comes along as this friend that says no.

把你的头从你想放的地方移开。

Take your head away from where you wanna put it.

你必须压抑自己真实的需求。

You have to stifle your real desires.

所以内疚感的出现是为了维持关系，而不是因为你做了什么错事，因为两岁、三岁的孩子从根本上不可能做错事。

So guilt comes along to maintain a relationship, not because you did anything wrong because a two year old, three year old, they can't do anything wrong by definition.

他们可能会做一些不好的事情，需要被教导不要这样做，但这并不算错。

They may do things that are not good, and they need to be taught not to do it, but it's not wrong.

那里不存在内疚。

There's no guilt there.

并没有‘我要做点邪恶的事’这样的想法。

There's no I'm gonna do something evil here.

是的。

Mhmm.

你明白吗？

You know?

所以内疚感完全不恰当，而且有不用内疚的方式来教育孩子。

So guilt is totally not appropriate, and there's ways of teaching children without guilt.

但内疚感的出现是为了让你循规蹈矩。

But guilt comes along to keep you in line.

那么，它是你的朋友还是敌人？

Now is that your friend or your enemy?

它是你的朋友，但它正在伤害你。

It's your friend, but it's hurting you.

这些早期朋友的问题在于，有些人不喜欢我用这个词，但我称之为愚蠢的朋友。

The problem with these early friends, and I call them sometimes people don't like this word, but I say call them stupid friends.

愚蠢之处在于，他们没有意识到你已经是个成年人了。

The stupidity comes in the fact they don't realize that you're an adult.

你现在可以自己做决定，并照顾好自己。

You can make your own decisions now and look after yourself.

你不需要被那些原本针对两岁孩子的建议所控制。

You don't need to be controlled by their advice that was meant for a two year old.

所以，他们根本无法被教育。

So that's where the they're just not educable.

是的。

Mhmm.

所以现在我对人们说，当大多数人因为为自己做点事而感到内疚时，我会对他们说：天哪，开个派对吧。

So when I say to people these days, now most people who feel guilty when they act a little bit on their own behalf, I say to them, for god's sakes, have a party.

庆祝一下。

Celebrate.

我为自己做了一件事。

I've done something for myself.

给你朋友打个电话。

Call your friends.

你知道的？

You know?

庆祝一下你这么‘自私’，就像谢丽尔·克罗说的那样。

Have a celebration that you were so, quote, unquote, selfish, like like like Sheryl Crow said.

那些总是告诉她必须忽略自己、服务他人的声音，现在她再也不听它们了。

All these voices that always told her that she has to ignore herself and serve others, now she doesn't listen to them anymore.

这就是内疚。

That's the guilt.

所以，你知道，要意识到内疚，跟它打个招呼，感谢它。

So, you know, recognize the guilt, say hello to it, thank it.

那么，是否存在一种健康的懊悔呢？

Now is there such a thing as health remorse?

是的。

Yeah.

如果我答应跟你喝咖啡，却因为找到更有趣的事而没去，我确实应该感到一些懊悔。

If I promise to meet you for coffee and I don't show up because I find something more pleasurable to do, I should feel some remorse.

所以，懊悔是针对具体事情的，这是一种健康的懊悔。

So remorse is about specific that's healthy remorse.

你知道，如果我违背了承诺，或者伤害了别人，你明白，我应该感到懊悔。

You know, if I break my word, if I hurt somebody where I you know, I should feel remorse.

但这不是一种长期的状态。

But that's not a long term thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你所说的不是那种长期的内疚。

It's not the chronic guilt that you're talking about.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那不是发生在很久以前、现在却限制或控制着我的事情。

That's not something what happened a long time ago, and now it limits me or controls me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是一种针对具体事情的健康悔意。

It's a health of remorse for some specific thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这和内疚是不同的。

That's different from guilt.

内疚就像是一个早已过时、失去作用的老朋友。

Guilt is this old friend that's long outlived their usefulness.

而挑战在于，我们仍然把它当作一个当下朋友来对待。

And the challenge is that we still treat it like a today friend.

没错。

Exactly.

我们几乎害怕打破这种依赖关系。

It's almost like we're so scared of breaking that dependence as well.

我们心想：我因为没陪在身边而感到内疚，所以我选择留在这个人身边，或者留在这个群体中，不管是什么情况。

We are thinking well I feel guilty that I'm not around so I'll stay around this individual, this group of people, whatever it may be.

但我也有一部分希望依赖他们。

But there's a part of me that wants to depend on them as well.

我也不想完全摆脱，因为我根本不知道那会是什么样子。

And I don't want to break free completely as well because I don't even know what that looks like.

就像你所说的，作为成年人，你可以照顾自己，可以走自己的路，但你实际上害怕这么做。

Like you're saying like as an adult you can take care of yourself, you can walk your own path but you're actually scared of doing that.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你接受了内疚的痛苦。

And so you accept the pain of guilt.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这维持了依赖关系。

Because it allows for dependence.

这确实是个很好的观点。

Well, that's a good point.

我经常对人们说，无论怎样，你都会经历痛苦。

And I often say to people, you're gonna have pain one way or the other.

对。

Yes.

你更愿意选择哪种痛苦？

Which pain would you like?

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为生活中有时根本没有不痛苦的选择。

Because sometimes in life, there's no pain free options.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可以选择压抑自己的痛苦，嗯。

You can have the pain of suppressing yourself Mhmm.

为了被接纳，或者你可以选择做真实的自己却得不到接纳的痛苦。

For the sake of being accepted, or you can have the pain sometimes of being yourself and not being accepted.

嗯。

Mhmm.

无论哪种方式，你都会经历痛苦。

You can have pain one way or the other.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我有自己的偏见，那就是不做自己的痛苦，最终要远为更强烈和更持久。

Now I have my own bias that the pain of not being ourselves ultimately is by far the greater and the more chronic pain.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且，做自己所带来的短期痛苦会带来自由和真正的独立，这意味着我可以与那些愿意接受我独立自我的人建立真正独立的关系。

And that the pain the short term pain of being ourselves brings liberation and genuine independence, which means I can have genuinely independent relationships with other people who are willing to accept me as independent.

是的。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

但从短期来看，你想要哪种痛苦？

But in the short term, which pain do you want?

是的。

Mhmm.

并没有无痛的选择。

Not there's no pain free option.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的

Yeah.

当然

For sure.

你让我想起了太虚大师分享的一个美妙观点：有一种熟悉的痛苦，还有一种不熟悉的痛苦。

That you reminded me of this beautiful idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares that there's familiar pain and unfamiliar pain.

嗯

Mhmm.

而这正是我们的两个选择。

And these are our two choices.

挑战在于，我们对不熟悉的痛苦感到极度恐惧，宁愿选择熟悉的痛苦，重复经历同样的痛苦，因为我们知道它会是什么感觉。

And the challenge is we're so scared of unfamiliar pain that we would rather choose familiar pain and go through the same pain because we know how it's going to feel.

没错

Exactly.

而且我们觉得，至少我意识到，至少我知道它能糟糕到什么地步。

And we think, at least I'm aware, at least I am conscious of how bad it can get.

没错。

Exactly.

但听你这么说，独立或依赖都伴随着痛苦。

But hearing you speak, being independent or being dependent both has pain.

是的。

Yeah.

但依赖的痛苦远大于独立的痛苦。

And, but the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.

嗯，这里可以稍微细化一下。

Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there.

从根本上说，一行禅师也谈过‘互即互入’的概念。

Ultimate I mean I mean, Thich Nhat Hanh also talked about interbeing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我们所有人都是相互关联的。

How we all inter are.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以从某种意义上说，我们确实相互依赖，你知道的，这没什么问题。

So in a certain sense, we do depend on each other, you know, and and that's okay.

问题是，我们是真诚地相互依赖，还是不真诚地相互依赖？

The question is do we depend on on each other authentically or inauthentically?

我独立并不意味着我不会寻求帮助，嗯。

The fact that I'm independent doesn't mean that I'm not gonna reach out for help Mhmm.

也不会意味着我不提供帮助。

Or that I won't offer it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但它意味着我会对你坦诚，不会假装成另一个人来换取你的接纳。

But it does mean that I will be honest with you, and I won't pretend to be somebody else that I'm not so that you'll accept me.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，在两个听起来非常相似的短语之间，有什么有趣的词语差异吗？

So there's anything interesting word difference between two phrases that sound very familiar.

一个是个人主义，另一个是个性化。

One is called individualism, and the other is called individuation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

极端的个人主义就是我不需要任何人，你知道的，是我一个人对抗全世界，这是北美资本主义的理想。

Now rugged individualism is I don't need anybody, and I you know, it's me against the world, and this is the North American capitalist ideal.

你知道的。

You know?

如果人类一直是这些极端的个人主义者，根本不可能进化到现在。

Well, human beings never would have evolved had we been those rugged individualists.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那些孤僻的个人主义者撑不过一代人。

The rugged individuals wouldn't last more than one generation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但个体化意味着我们能在与他人的真诚关系中做真实的自己。

But individuated means that we can be ourselves, truly ourselves, in genuine relationship with others.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不是孤僻的个人主义者。

Not rugged individualists.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，最无聊的人就是那些孤僻的个人主义者，因为他们都一模一样。

I I mean, the most boring people are rugged individuals because they all look the same.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，你可以是独立的个体，做真实的自己，同时依然归属群体，依然渴望脆弱地与他人建立联系。

So so you can be individuated and be truly yourself and still belong and still vulnerably desire human contact.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I couldn't agree more.

我觉得现在有很多言论说我们不在乎别人怎么想，这无关紧要，你只管做自己，但这种说法几乎也是一种苦涩的回应，因为我们确实需要在意别人的想法。

I think there's a lot of rhetoric around we don't care what anyone else thinks and it doesn't matter and you just do your own thing and it's almost, that's almost a bitter response as well because we do have to care what people think.

如果我们生活在一个完全不在乎他人看法的世界里，那并不会健康，因为我们会做出各种荒唐可怖的事情。

If we lived in a world where you didn't care what anyone thought, it wouldn't be that healthy because we would do all sorts of obscene horrific things.

我会换种说法。

I'd phrase it differently.

我很好奇。

I'm intrigued.

是的。

Yeah.

我很好奇。

I'm intrigued.

是的。

Yeah.

我不在乎别人怎么想。

I don't care what anybody thinks.

但我在意自己的行为以及它对他人造成的影响。

But I do care what I do and how it affects other people.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

还有另一位灵性导师，冈纳·罗塔纳。

So there's another spiritual teacher, Gunnar Rottana.

他写了一本书，叫《正念的朴素英语》。

He wrote a book called Mindfulness in Plain English

嗯。

Mhmm.

我最近刚刚在读这本书。

Which I've just been working through recently.

他谈到一种更高的道德，源于做真实的自己并与之保持连接。

And he's talking about a higher morality that comes from being truly yourself and in touch.

他说，你不再需要规则了，就像圣奥古斯丁说的：去爱，然后做你想做的事。

And he says, well, you don't need rules anymore because it's like Saint Augustine said, love and do what you will.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果你真正地爱这个世界，就不必给自己设定规则，因为这份爱会自然引导你。嗯。

So if you actually love the world, you don't have to give yourself rules because that love will dictate Mhmm.

你如何对待他人。

How you act towards other people.

我不能在意别人怎么想。

I can't worry about what other people think.

听好了，如果我在意别人怎么想，我就不会写任何一本书了，因为我的每一本书都在挑战医学、注意力缺陷、压力与疾病或成瘾等领域中的主流观念。

Look, if I worried about what other people think, I would not have written any of my books because each of my books challenge the the reigning orthodoxy in say medicine, you know, or whether it's under attention deficit or stress and disease or addictions.

每次写书时，我都在表达一些东西，我不是说这些是我发明的，而是我逐渐理解并深信不疑的。

And every time I write a book, I'm saying something that I'm not saying that I invented it, but that I I've come to understand and fervently Mhmm.

我相信，并希望传达给他人。

Believe and want to communicate.

但我不能在意别人怎么想。

But I can't worry about what other people think.

是的。

Mhmm.

当我发表政治观点时，我对自己的话和表达方式负责，但对他人的看法不负责任。

Or when I make a political statement, I'm responsible for what I say, how I say it, but not what other people think about it.

但那并不意味着我可以忽视他人的经历。

But I but that doesn't mean that I can that I can ignore other people's experience.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，只要我的意图纯粹是说出真相，并且以诚信的方式表达，我就不能在意别人怎么想。

So as long as my intention is purely to speak a truth and I do so with integrity, I can't worry about what other people think.

我确实不能。

I I I can't.

是的。

Yeah.

但这并不意味着我会到处去做些可怕的事情。

But that doesn't mean I'm gonna go around just doing terrible things Mhmm.

因为我根本不在乎你怎么想。

Because I don't care what what you think.

只要我确信自己所做的一切，当我已经做过那样的自我审视时。

As as long as I'm convinced that what I do if I've if I've done that kind of inventory Mhmm.