海登·潘妮蒂尔：新闻背后的真相（首次亲述自己的故事）

我当时完全愣住了。

So it took me I was I was shocked.

我根本没想到，竟然是一个我信任、视作保护者、觉得他会站在我这边的人，把我带下了楼。

It took me by surprise, and it was somebody led by somebody that I had grown to trust and see as a protector and somebody who had my back and to be walked down, you know, down the stairs.

那场面就像个突然冒出来的惊喜，可这哪是什么惊喜。

And it was it was as like a surprise presented as as though it was like a surprise.

那是个特别小的房间，她直接把我推到床上，旁边躺着一个没穿衣服的男人，很有名，手就那样摆着。

And it was this very small room, and she she physically put me in the bed next to this this undressed man who was very famous and had his hands like this.

对他来说，这不过是再平常不过的一天。

Like like, this was just, you know, an average day for him.

这种事对他来说天天都有。

This is something that happens all the time.

我等着她离开，那一刻，我体内那股怒火猛地燃起，头发都竖起来了，整个人变得异常凶狠。

And I waited for her to leave, and I I mean, that that lion in me, that fire in me, that that, my my hair stood on on end, and I became ferocious.

我心里直喊：这不可能发生在我身上。

I was like, this is not happening.

但我无处可躲。

But I had nowhere to hide.

我直接跑了，躲到能想到的任何地方——在船上，躲到船上。

And I bolted, and I I hid wherever I could think of to hide on on a boat on a boat.

没法跳下去游泳逃走，我这才明白，根本没人会对我感同身受，这种事对他们来说再平常不过了。

There was no jumping off and swimming away, and there was nobody who was going to I realized that there was nobody who was going to be empathetic to my situation, that this was nothing new to them.

我的天，这种事发生在18岁的你身上，简直太可怕了。

I mean, you know, that sounds it's such a horrifying event to go through and to be put in that position at 18 years old.

被自己信任的人这样辜负，真的让人失望。

And disappointing when somebody lets you down like that.

我之前已经被辜负过太多次了，当你终于遇到一个值得信赖的人，你会拼了命地抓住他，觉得自己特别幸运。

And I had been let down so much before and and that when you really find somebody that you trust, like, you hold on to them for dear life and you feel so lucky.

可被这样背叛，那种感觉真的太糟了。

So to be betrayed like that is just an awful feeling.

如果精神控制是真实存在的呢？

What if mind control is real?

如果你能控制

If you could control the

身边任何人的行为，你会希望娶一个什么样的妻子？

behavior of anybody around you, what kind of wife would you have?

你能通过催眠让人买一辆车吗？

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

当你看着你的车时，会感受到满满的愉悦。

When you look at your car, you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

你能催眠别人和你发生关系吗？

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

我给她一些暗示，让她产生性冲动。

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

你能让人加入你的邪教吗？

Can you get someone to join your cult?

有人用神经语言程序学操控我，深入我的潜意识。

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

神经语言程序学，也就是NLP，融合了催眠、语言学和心理学。

NLP, aka neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

粉丝们说，这就像终于拿到了大脑的使用说明书。

Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

这其实是在设计意识。

It's about engineering consciousness.

《心灵游戏》讲的就是NLP的故事。

Mind Games is the story of NLP.

它有一群狂热的追随者，还有个假医生，他在一个新时代公社里发明了这套东西，然后卖给了那些穿西装的人。

It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

他曾经因谋杀受审，但最终被判无罪。

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

最大的心理游戏是什么？

The biggest mind game of all?

NLP说不定真管用。

NLP might actually work.

这太疯狂了。

This is wild.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的播客平台收听《Mind Games》。

Listen to mind games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

当你感到不舒服的时候，你会听什么歌？

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

Biggie。

Biggie.

你不舒服的时候就听 Biggie？

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

因为我想让自己更有自信。

Because I wanna get confident.

这里是 DJ Hester Prins，音乐就是疗愈。

This is DJ Hester Prins, music is therapy.

这是我作为一位 DJ 和持证治疗师推出的新播客。

A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.

十二个月，十二个生活领域。

Twelve months, 12 areas of your life.

金钱、感情、事业、自信。

Money, love, career, confidence.

这不仅仅是个播客。

This isn't just a podcast.

这是为你一整年量身打造的非传统心理疗愈。

It's unconventional therapy for your entire year.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或你常用的任何平台收听 DJ Hester Prins 的《音乐即疗愈》。

Listen to DJ Hester Prun's music is therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

想换个角度看一级方程式吗？

Ready for a different take on Formula One?

不妨听听《No Grip》，这档新播客深入探讨赛车文化中最受追捧的赛事。

Look no further than No Grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series.

我是 Lily Herman，跟我一起探索 F1 中那些鲜为人知的角落，包括星座对

Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the underexplored pockets of f one, including the astrology of

现在的车手阵容。

the current grid.

刘易斯·汉密尔顿，摩羯座太阳，巨蟹座月亮。

Lewis Hamilton, Capricorn sun, Cancer moon.

你信不信？

Wouldn't you know it?

迈克尔·舒马赫也是摩羯座太阳，巨蟹座月亮。

Michael Schumacher is also a Capricorn sun, Cancer moon.

这项运动历史上最具影响力的车手罢工事件。

The story of the sport's most consequential driver strike.

有位车手听说自己要被开除，当场崩溃，居然从洗手间的窗户爬了出去。

We have one man who upon hearing that he was going to be fired, freaked out, and apparently climbed out the window of the bathroom.

丹尼尔·里卡多那辉煌的F1生涯，到底算成功还是警示，或者两者兼有？

And was Daniel Riccardo's illustrious f one career a success story, a cautionary tale, or some combination of both?

他开始受到大量关注，或许渐渐觉得自己比这整个体系都重要了。

He started getting all this attention, and he maybe started to think, I'm bigger than this.

我更强了。

I'm better.

还有不少其他事故、丑闻，

And plenty of other mishaps, scandals,

以及这些年来让一级方程式成为一场精彩又堕落的混乱闹剧的种种风波，已经持续了七十五年多。

and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than seventy five years.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或你常用的任何播客平台收听。

Listen to no grip on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你现在怎么判断该相信谁？

How do you decide who you trust now?

我觉得自己并没有做得有多好。

It doesn't seem like I've done much of a very good job.

我觉得自己在挑选人这件事上并没有进步多少，因为确实有一些人，他们充满负能量，根本不是好人，不知为什么总是靠近我，而我一开始根本没看清楚他们。

I don't think I I've gotten much better at choosing on one hand because I do feel like I have there are certain people that I negative with negative energy and that are just not good people that I've been I've that have been drawn to me for whatever reason and who I've not seen clearly immediately.

我花了好一阵子才明白。

It took me a while.

他们真的把我蒙得团团转，这我本来真没想到，毕竟我人生经历这么多，这种事以前也遇到过。

Like, they really were able to pull the wool over my eyes, which you would not ex I didn't expect of myself, you know, having had all the life experience that I have and having had things like that already happened to me.

你可能会觉得，这应该是个教训，我理应确保这种事再也不会发生。

Like, you would think it would have been a learning experience, and it you know, I would have made sure that it never happened again.

可惜的是，事实并非如此。

And, unfortunately, that was, not the case.

不过话说回来，我生命中也有特别棒的人。

But that being said, I have I on the other hand, I have had amazing people in my life.

我爸爸从我小时候起就是我强大的后盾。

I mean, my dad has been a huge support system for me since I was a kid.

他一直是我最安心的港湾，我身上很多东西都像他。

He was the safe space, and there's a lot of me in him.

是他让我保持清醒，把我的善良一点一点激发出来。

He he is the person that kept me grounded and and made me, you know, the good in me.

我这颗宽厚的心，完全是跟他学的。

I I got my big, big heart from from him.

但这些年，我运气不错，遇上了特别棒的人，还有一群朋友，他们特别忠诚，真心地善良。

But I have, throughout the years, been fortunate enough to meet just incredible people, and I do have a group of of friends that are incredible people, incredibly loyal, and are genuinely, genuinely good.

所以，总有那么几个，悄悄地出现在我生命里。

So there are just a few that have snuck snuck in here and there.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，今天我见到了其中几位。

I think and I got to meet some of them today.

对。

Yeah.

你最好的朋友就在你身边，还有其他那些特别好的人，看到你被这样一群人围绕着，真让人欣慰。

Your best friend is with you and and others who are who are wonderful people and, you know, great to see you surrounded by them.

刚才我们聊天的时候，我还跟你说过，有时候我觉得，很多好人总会责怪自己，为什么总吸引来负面的人。

And I I was sharing this with you as we were speaking before that sometimes I feel that I think a lot of good people beat themselves up for attracting negative people around them.

但说实话，我不觉得你是被负面的人吸引来的。

And the truth is I don't think you attract negative people.

我觉得，当你在事业上做得越来越大，接触的人越来越多，自然就会遇到更多负面的人，因为你接触的范围变广了。

I think when you get so big and large in your work and your career and you're exposed to so many people, you just come across more negative people because you're exposed to more.

你知道，你并不是真的

You know, you don't

没错。

Right.

比如，如果你只生活在自己的小镇或社区里，可能只会遇到那么一两个人。

Like if you're exposed to your town or your community or whatever, maybe you'll come across a couple of people.

但当你开始进入更大的行业、更广阔的世界时，

When you start getting exposed to a bigger industry and a bigger world

没错。

Right.

但光是接触到这些人是一回事，要我不为此责怪自己，真的很难，毕竟他们还是钻了进来。

But they just exposed is one thing, but then I it it's hard for me not to beat myself up over letting them get past

对。

Mhmm.

你知道，我的防备心。

You know, my defenses.

对。

Mhmm.

让他们靠近我，以及持续多久。

Letting them get close to me and for how long.

就像我之前跟你说过的，选身边的人，我真的很在意，必须谨慎挑选。

I have you know, it's really as I told you before, it's really important for me to have to to choose the the people who are around me why wisely.

我有一支了不起的团队，他们不仅专业出色，更成了我亲密的朋友、知己和守护者，而我过去并不总能拥有这样的团队。

And I have an incredible team of people who are are not just great at what they do, but who are just have become dear, dear friends and and confidants and and protectors, and I haven't always had that.

他们也从不害怕对我讲真话，这一点对我来说特别重要。

And I and they're not afraid to tell me the truth either, and that's a hugely important thing

对。

Mhmm.

对我而言。

For me.

但一想到有些人本不该接近我的生活，却偏偏进了我的世界，我就忍不住责怪自己，原因太多了，数都数不清。

But it's hard to not beat myself up for for certain people, you know, having access to my life that were not should never have had access, should never have been a part of my life for many, many, many reasons.

是的。

Yeah.

我跟不少年轻艺人聊过，感觉年轻时总盼着身边的成年人能替你做出正确的决定。

I feel like when you're young as well from having spoken to quite a lot of young talent in the industry, it's almost like you're hoping that the adults around you are making good choices.

你在书里提到，拍红毯前有人给你吃药，让你更有自信，可这恰恰埋下了日后许多问题的种子。

And you talk about in the book how you were actually given pills before a red carpet to make you feel more confident and how that planted the seeds for so many other things that came in the future.

你慢慢会开始期待，身边的人——尤其是你年轻的时候——能帮你做出更好的选择，是吧。

And it again, you're coming to a point where you're hoping the people around you, especially when you're young Yeah.

你那么早就入行，更需要有人在关键时刻拉你一把。

To help you make better decisions, especially when you start as young as you did.

对。

Yeah.

给我那些药的人，我当时已经和他建立了非常紧密的关系，感情也很深。

And the person who handed me those pills, I had already developed a very tight relationship and a great bond with them.

所以当时发生的时候，我并没觉得有什么不妥或者负面的地方。

So when it happened, it I didn't see it as anything inappropriate or negative.

我信任这个人。我和他不仅私交很好，而且他的工作里有一部分就是负责保护我。

I I trusted this person, and this it was not I didn't just have a great personal relationship with this person, but this person's job is part part of their job was to always protect me.

所以我早就习惯了听从那些我尊重的人、我共事的人的指挥。

And so I was I was so used to following the directions of the people that, that I respected, the people that I worked with.

如果他们让我跳，我就跳。

If they told me to jump, I I jumped.

他们让我穿这件。

They told me to wear this.

我就穿了那件。

I wore that.

你懂的。

You know?

我对他们的信任，远超对自己的信任。

I I trusted them more than I ever trusted myself.

我从小就不被教导要相信自己，除了作为演员的直觉。

I wasn't raised to trust myself except for my instincts as an actor.

这其实是在贬低我。

That was insulting me.

但作为一个普通人，情况就完全不一样了。

But as a person, it was a completely different story.

对。

Mhmm.

与此同时，你还不断迎来巨大的成功。

And at the same time, you're getting this, like, you know, huge wins.

比如你一演主角，就一跃成为最知名、最受欢迎的年轻演员之一，对吧。

Like, you become one of the most, you know, well known popular young actors when you land heroes, and Mhmm.

那真是个重要的时刻。

It's this huge moment.

从外面看，这简直就是非凡的成就。

And from the outside, it just looks like an incredible accomplishment.

没错。

Right.

那时候你心里和脑子里都在想什么？各种情绪涌上来的时候？

What's what's going through your heart and mind when that happens in in all emotions?

你当时具体感受到什么？

What are you experiencing?

成功意味着我妈妈会为我感到骄傲，这对我来说特别重要。

The success meant that I my mom was gonna be happy with me, so that was that was hugely important.

这也让我觉得自己被接纳了。

It also meant that I fit in.

对。

Mhmm.

我能够

That I was

找到自己的位置。

your place.

是的。

Yes.

我终于找到了属于自己的位置，有人真正接纳了我，我也成了一个群体的一部分，和大家一起做事，他们成了我的伙伴，我的朋友。

I found my place that I was finally, somebody accepted me, and and I was part of something that involved other people, and they became my my my crew, my group of friends.

我终于感觉到自己真的有了归属，那一刻我心想，天啊。

I finally felt like I fit in somewhere, and I finally felt like, my gosh.

我做到了。

I made it.

我记得第一次走出公寓，就碰上了狗仔队。

Like, I I remember the first time I walked out of my apartment and paparazzi.

那时候我大概十六岁，以前总想象着，等我事业有成，也会有狗仔队追着拍。

I was about 16 years old, and and I had imagined younger, you know, getting to that place in my career where I would get paparazzi.

你知道吗？

And, you know, what?

我当时就在想，得做点什么，比如那种……算了。

I was just thinking of, I gotta do, like, one of those, like, no.

别给我拍照。

Don't take a picture of me.

我本来以为会拍出那种特别完美、特别好看的照片，结果吓个半死。

Like, like, it's gonna be one of those, like, just, like, perfectly, you know, beautiful shots, and it was just sheer terror.

我的意思是，那张照片——

I mean, the shot

真的真的

actually actually

当真发生的时候，我听见咔嚓咔嚓的快门声，抬头一看，感觉就像正对着枪口。

Like, when I actually happened, I I heard this clicking, and I looked up, and it was I remember it feeling like I was looking down the barrel of a gun.

是个男人坐在车里，车窗摇了下来。

And it was a guy sitting in his car with his window rolled down.

我当时还以为他在帮我遛狗，结果吓坏了，心想天哪。

And I I was I think he was walking my my dogs, and I was horrified because I was like, oh my gosh.

那张照片里的我，表情完全是吓呆了，特别恐惧，大概就是那种样子。

That's not the the look that I expected to have that picture is of me looking terrified, absolutely terrified, and probably going, something like that.

这可不是你最想拍到的画面。

That's not the shot you the first want.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Definitely.

但事情就是这么发生了。

But that's what happened.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

你再怎么规划，老天都会笑你。

You can plan all you want and god laughs.

是的。

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Definitely.

我的意思是，你之前提到过这个。

I mean, but you you talked about this.

你一开始就说过了，关于你的生活如何渐渐习惯了为掌声而活——先是得讨好妈妈，然后是整个社区，再后来当然就是狗仔队什么的。

You said this at the start, this idea of just like how your life became used to living for applause, like having to get the applause from your mom and then the community and then of course paparazzi, whatever.

对吧？

Right?

你能明显看出这种趋势。

It's like you kinda see that trend.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

然后这种需求不断膨胀，越来越严重，从原本有点酷的事情，变成了极其危险又极度侵扰的生活，不只是对我，对身边的人也是。

And then it grows and it grew, and it grew, and it went from something that was, like, kind of cool to something that was incredibly dangerous and incredibly invasive, and not just for me, but for the people around me.

我当时就觉得身边的人都不安全。

For I did felt like the people around like, I wasn't safe.

周围的人都受到了影响。

The people around me were were being affected by it.

是的。

Yeah.

我特别保护我弟弟，对所有我爱的人，我都寸步不让。

I was very protective of my my little brother, fiercely protective of the people I love, period.

尤其是那时候我才十六岁，情况完全不一样。

And, and especially back then when I was 16 years old, it was a whole different ballgame.

狗仔队的做法已经越界了，到现在我都难以相信，那些行为居然合法。

Like like, the paparazzi situation was crossed lines that still blow my mind today that they were that that were legal.

他们能干出这种事：开车时把你围得水泄不通。

They were able to do the things that were said the way that they would box you in while you were driving.

我记得有一次从商店出来，刚有人认出我，转眼外面就聚集了一百多人，还冲我扔东西。

I remember coming out of a store once, and it was, you know, one person saw me in, and suddenly it was over a 100 outside, and they kicked me.

我感觉有人从背后踢了我一脚，回头一看，相机已经怼到我脸上，我才明白他们是在故意激我反应。

I I just felt this was kick on the back of my leg, and I realized and when I turned around, they had the camera in my face, and I realized that that's they were trying to get a reaction out of me.

我记得有位特别有名的公关人士，在我年轻的时候，Heroes这部剧即将彻底改变我人生的时候，他专门找我谈了一次，教我怎么应对狗仔队，怎么控制表情，尽量表现得平淡一点。

So I remember a very famous successful publicist sat me down when I was, when I was young and I think when he when Heroes was about to change my life permanently, and he knew this, and he sat me down and had a whole conversation with me about how to handle, paparazzi and how to keep your expressions, you know, kind of boring, if you if you will.

但那时候，人们为了拍到一张照片所使出的手段，还有他们对我说的那些话，真的让人难以接受。

But the lengths that people will go to get that shot and the things that they would say to me at such a young age were appalling.

这些事简直让人难以置信，太震惊了。

They're truly just just mind blowing and shocking.

那真的太危险了。

It was just wildly dangerous.

我当时就在想，为什么？

And I was like, why?

尤其是戴安娜王妃的事之后，这种事怎么就没变过？

Especially after princess Diana, how how has this not changed?

是的。

Yeah.

怎么就没人出来管管这事呢？

How has nobody stepped in and stopped this?

这太离谱了。

This is crazy.

你是怎么挺过来的？

How did you cope?

你具体做了些什么？

And, like, what did you do?

你是怎么应对这一切的？

How did you deal with all of that?

这简直让人喘不过气来。

Because that just seems overwhelming.

你什么都做不了。

There is nothing to do.

那时候你只能感觉彻底无能为力。

Like, that was that was you feel completely Powerless.

无能为力。

Helpless.

对。

Yes.

无能为力。

Powerless.

无能为力。

Helpless.

我一上车就开始狂飙，简直疯了。

I would get in the car, and I drove, like, bat at a HE double hockey sticks.

我当时简直像在参加纳斯卡赛车。

Like, I I would I was I became a NASCAR driver.

说来庆幸，老天保佑，没人受伤。

And knock on wood, thank god nothing nothing nobody ever got hurt.

但有一次，我租了辆车想甩开他们，开得太快，不得不急打右转。

But there was one time I was out trying to outrun them in a rental car, and I was going so fast down the street that I had to make a quick right turn.

我猛踩刹车，结果车没停住，直接打滑冲进了车流。

I hit my brakes, and instead of the car stopping, it just went for the slide directly into traffic.

天哪，我当时真是……

So I would Gosh.

说真的，我差点就撞上车流了，但最后关头还是转了过去。

I mean, I I was able to turn into traffic, like, just in time in the nick of time.

当时我觉得有人在暗中保护我，是的。

Like, somebody I felt like somebody was watching over me Yeah.

那时候真的有人在护着我。

And protecting me at that point.

有时候，事后我干脆直接回家了。

And sometimes I just had to go home afterwards.

我本来出门是想做点事的，但那会儿太危险了。

I and and I went out with a plan to do something, and and it wasn't safe.

我一整天都不想应付他们，就直接回家了，心里还想着：你今天连目标都没完成。

And I didn't feel like dealing with with them all day long, so I just went home and and would go, you didn't get your you didn't get your shot.

但我也没能如愿，是的。

But I also didn't get to to Yeah.

去做我想做的事。

Do what I wanted.

我独自生活的时候，记得得叫出租车。那时候还没有优步之类的软件，我得叫车到家里。为了不被街边蹲守的狗仔队认出来，我几乎得蜷缩在后座地板上，或者让朋友来接我，还得躲在瑜伽垫下面之类的东西里藏起来。

When I was living on my own, I remember having to call, like, taxis to at the time, we didn't have Uber or anything up to my house, and I would have to lie down in the back seat, like, almost on the on the floor so that they couldn't see the paparazzi that were waiting in the street couldn't see that I was in the car or have a friend pick me up, and I would have to hide under yoga mats and things like that.

我以前也没意识到，比如我们去The Grove，或者像罗迪欧大道那样的地方，有多少人是拿钱专门在那儿当明星猎人的。

I also didn't realize, like, we'd go to somewhere like, let's say, The Grove, how many people or somewhere on, like, Rodeo, how many people were paid money to do this to be a celebrity spotter.

对。

Right.

而且你知道，你以为自己骗过了他们，成功脱身了，但只要有一个不对的人看到你，你这一天就全毁了。

And, you know, you think you you you've fooled them and you got out of there, and it just takes one person to the wrong person to see you, and there goes your day.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧，是的。

Well Yeah.

我记得书里提到，差不多就是那时候，你第一次在拍节目时遇见弗拉德。我很好奇，现在回过头看，你当时是怎样的自己？

Well, I believe it was around the same time in the book you talk about meeting Vlad for the first time when you're doing the show and I was I was wondering what do you when you reflect back on it now and meeting him, what version of you were you then?

我遇见他的时候，才十九岁。

When I met him, I was 19.

其实，那时候的我很喜欢自己。

I liked myself back then, actually.

回想起来，我觉得自己表现得挺从容的。

When I think when I think back on it, I I felt like I held my own well.

那时候，我对生活充满乐趣。

I I found a lot of joy in life.

我是个特别快乐的人。

I was a really happy person.

那时候我什么都没经历过，没失去过在乎的人，也没遇到过什么能让我受挫的事。

I hadn't had anything you know, I hadn't lost people I loved or been through anything that had do negatively shaped me.

所以，我遇见他时，心态特别好，非常健康。

So I was I was in a really good mental spot, healthy mental spot when I when I met him.

我那时候精力充沛，就像我妈妈说的那样。

I was full of piss and vinegar as my mom would say.

那进展得快吗？

And did it move fast?

你们当时是不是立刻就感觉到彼此之间有什么特别的？

Did you were you you know, was it was it just instantly you both know knew that there was something there at the time?

他一开始并不是我喜欢的类型。

He was not my type at at first.

他就像一尊希腊雕像一样。

I mean, he was like looking at a Greek statue.

和他在一起的时候，感觉就是那样。

Like, that's what it it was like being in in his presence.

我光是盯着他的脸看。

Like, you I just studied his his face.

他长得像是从石头或雕塑里雕出来的。

He looked chiseled out of out of, you know, stone, out of marvel.

你就像那样

You're like That's

我正要引用一段经文。

what I'm about to scripture.

就是这样。

Thing.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他的五官，还有他整个人，都透着一股强烈的气场。

I mean, his features, just like everything about him was so so fierce.

我当时个子很小，但他身上散发出的气质却意外地温柔善良，让我特别好奇。

And I was so small, but the personality that came out of him was, surprisingly gentle and kind and made me very curious.

但那时候我刚和一位还在合作的搭档分手。

But it it I had just gone through a breakup with a co star that I was still working with.

所以那时候我还没真正从那段分手里走出来。

So I wasn't really in the headspace of fully moving past that breakup yet.

结果又拖了一年。

So it took an it was it was another year.

我二十岁那年，才和弗拉德真正联系上，开始交往。

It was when I was 20 years old that Vlad and I actually connected and started dating.

我觉得我们本来约好要见面的。

I think they we were supposed to meet up.

我当时在看超级碗比赛。

I was at the Super Bowl.

我十九岁那会儿本来约好要见一面，我应该给他打电话的，结果一直没打。

We were supposed to meet up once when I was still 19, and I I guess I was supposed to call him, and I never did.

结果他就在那儿，世界重量级拳王，听说他气坏了，因为我根本没给他打那个电话，他等了那么久。

And there he was, you know, the heavyweight champion of the world and going apparently, he was very pissed off that that I that I never that he was waiting around for for my phone call.

他当时就说：这姑娘到底以为自己是谁？

He was like, who does this girl think she is?

她知道我是谁吗？

Does she know who I am?

是的。

Yeah.

他这个人并不自负，但我记得他对这件事的反应特别搞笑。

He's not he's he's not a cocky person, but I remember his reaction to that being very, very funny.

说得对。

That's fair.

说得对。

That's fair.

说得对。

That's fair.

对。

Yeah.

作为重量级拳王

As as the heavyweight

那位重量级冠军花了一年时间。

champion of took a year.

我见过他。

I met him.

我们一直保持联系。

We kept in touch.

后来，我第一次去看拳赛，是因为我带我弟弟去看他哥哥的比赛，那天是我弟弟的生日。

And then, actually, I I went my first fight was for my I brought my little brother to his brother's fight for for my little brother's birthday.

那是一段特别的时光，之后我和弗拉德一直保持联系，渐渐发展成了恋情。

So it was a very special time, and then Vlad and I stayed in touch and and then started a relationship.

是的。

Yeah.

你书里有一段内容，我之前完全不知道，我现在念一下。

What what in the part in your book that I found like something that I was totally unaware of, and I'm gonna read from it here.

对。

Mhmm.

你提到在拍《纳什维尔》的时候，你当上了妈妈。

You talk about this is so while you were on Nashville, you obviously become a mother.

那时候，《纳什维尔》的剧情几乎就是围绕着你的生活来写的。

And it was this idea that Nashville was almost writing based on and your writing around you.

你谈到了你饰演的角色朱丽叶·巴恩斯的故事线。

You talk about the storylines for your character, Juliet Barnes.

对。

Mhmm.

剧中那些情节，其实都在反映你个人生活中的经历。

And how in Nashville they mirrored what you were going through in your personal life.

你特别写到，当时你正饱受严重的焦虑和无法摆脱的成瘾困扰，而你不得不两次亲身经历这一切。

And you write this specifically, I was suffering from debilitating anxiety and an addiction I couldn't shake and I had to live through it twice.

第一次是在家里，以海登的身份；第二次是在镜头前，以朱丽叶的身份，面对数百万观众。

First at home as Hayden and then in front of millions as Juliet.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的让我很触动，因为你知道，我们看电视剧和电影的时候，往往就真的觉得演员就是那个角色。

And that really struck me because, you know, I think we all watch TV and film and everything and we don't really, it's almost like we believe you are that character anyway.

没错。

Absolutely.

你其实很难真正了解一个演员本人，除非通过采访；但如果你没看过，可能只在深夜脱口秀或晨间节目里见过他们三分钟，那你就根本无从知晓。

And you don't really ever know what the real character is until you, and you can in an interview, but if you don't see that, maybe if you only see someone for three minutes on a late night show or a morning show or whatever Right.

你根本无从了解。

You have no

你对他们的认识，就只剩下‘海登’和‘朱丽叶’，好像她就是这两个人。

You have no real sense of who they are beyond, oh, well, Hayden and Juliet, like, that's who she is.

是吧。

Yeah.

对。

Right?

就是。

Like.

在电视上，人们看到的都是新闻里呈现的样子，还有他们的外表。

On TV, in what they see, you see in the news and and what you look like.

看到头条新闻、八卦消息，这类东西。

See headlines and news gossip and all that kind of stuff.

你看到电视节目，然后再看到照片。

You see the TV show and then you see pictures.

你说得一点都没错。

You're absolutely right.

就是这样。

That's it.

而你所了解的，就只有这些。

And and that's all you get.

正因如此，我特别感激——我想对读这本书的每个人说，你看到的这个人，我相信他经历了很多磨难，却依然有能力反思和内省自己所经历的一切。

And this is why I really appreciate just how I just wanna acknowledge and for anyone who's gonna read this book, like, you get to see someone who's, I believe, lived through a lot of hardship, but has this ability to reflect and introspect about what's happening.

当你这么一说，你才会恍然大悟：原来我之前没意识到这一点。

And when you when you put it that way and you're like, oh, I didn't realize.

海登正在经历这一切。

Hayden's going through this.

她亲身承受着现实，而我想和你聊聊你感受到的焦虑。

She's living through the reality, and I wanna talk to you about the anxiety that you're experiencing.

与此同时，你还要在工作中扮演这个角色，剧组还得围绕你怀孕的事来编剧情，让剧集继续拍下去，之后也是这样。

And then at the same time, you're living it twice because now you're having to act here at work, and they're writing around you being pregnant to to have the show continue and then after that as well.

所以，你能说说那种令人瘫痪的焦虑是从哪儿来的吗？双重生活到底是什么感觉？

And so talk to me about where the debilitating anxiety was coming from and what it felt like to live it twice.

感觉永远没有尽头。

It felt like it never ended.

我分不清朱丽叶和海登到底谁是谁了。

I didn't know where Juliet began and Hayden ended.

刚开始拍《纳什维尔》的时候，我以为我们俩的生活有这么多相似之处，只是巧合。

In the beginning, when I first started doing Nashville, I thought, well, it's just a coincidence that our our lives are have so many similarities.

一定是这样。

It must be.

后来随着时间推移，剧集一集集播出，各种情节开始一一对应，比如朱莉叶·巴恩斯在跟谁约会、酗酒、产后抑郁，甚至失去孩子，基本上就是抛弃了孩子。这时候我就想，好吧。

And then as the years went on, the episodes went on, and everything kept to match started matching up from, you know, the who Juliet Barnes was dating to to being an alcoholic, to postpartum depression, to losing her child, basically abandoning her child, then it was like, okay.

我觉得你们就是在复刻我的人生。

This you guys are just mirroring my life.

我们拿剧本的时间其实很紧，没法提前太久拿到。

And we would get the the we wouldn't get the episodes very far ahead of time.

所以每次去拿剧本，我就想，嘿。

So to to go to them and say, hey.

你得去适应这些变化，而这完全不是我所习惯的工作方式。

You gotta change this and that wasn't wasn't anything I was used to doing.

我习惯了做好本职工作，让事情顺利进行。

I was used to to doing my job and making it work.

但那种感觉就像日子永远过不完，我们每天要拍十个小时的戏。

But it felt like the day never ended, and we would shoot ten minutes out of the years.

年底那会儿，每天工作十二到二十个小时。

Year end, twelve to twenty hour days.

我从来没觉得自己是个方法派演员。

And I I never thought I was a a method actor.

我确实跟一些方法派演员合作过，他们演角色的时候，根本不会抽离出来。

And and I've I've worked with with method actors who when they play a character role, they they never they never jump in.

他们不会一会儿是角色，一会儿又变回自己。

They don't jump in and out of the character.

在整个拍摄期间，他们就是那个角色本身。

They are the character for the entirety of the filming process.

连续拍六年，每年拍十个月，这根本不是人干的事，但也没办法，因为这简直就是我的生活。

Shooting something for six years, ten months out of the years, that's not really that's not what you wanna do, but it wasn't was unavoidable because it was my my life.

我根本喘不上气来。

I couldn't come up from for air from it.

一点休息都没有。

There was no break from it.

而我演的，又是一个情感极其深沉、阴暗的角色。

And here I was playing this very deeply emotional, dark character.

我们有很多相似之处，但作为人，我们本质上是不同的。

We had so much alike, but we but we were different in in in who we were as as people.

尤其是在片场，就连休息的时候，我都没意识到自己一直在不知不觉中变成她。

But especially when I was on set even during breaks, I didn't even realize that I was taking I was becoming her constantly.

我根本没顾得上照顾自己，没法调节情绪，也没法消化生活里的事，更不想谈这些，因为一整天我都在演、在哭。

And I wasn't therefore taking care of myself, able to take care of myself mentally and decompress and process what's going on in my life nor did I wanna talk about it because I had just spent all day acting it out and crying.

我感觉自己一直屏着呼吸，根本逃不开那种状态。

I just felt like I was cons I was holding my breath all the time, and I couldn't get away from it.

你知道，签了合同后，我变得特别绝望，这才开始依赖药物，因为焦虑越来越严重，恐慌发作也频频出现。

And, you know, you're in a contract, and I was I became desperate, and I was doing every that's why I turned to to substances because the anxiety that I start I started having having the panic attacks that I started having.

我以前就容易紧张，一直有舞台恐惧。

I used to have nerve nerves a lot, and I had I I had stage fright.

从小我就有舞台恐惧，但那种让人保持警觉的紧张感，后来演变成了真正的焦虑，让我连正常做事、清晰思考都做不到。

I've had stage fright since I was a kid, but the those good nerves that keep you on your toes at some point turned into genuine, like, genuine anxiety that made me incapable of functioning properly or thinking clearly.

它甚至让我身体止不住地发抖。

It would make me physically shake.

所以我靠喝酒来自我治疗，寻找一丝解脱。

So I was self medicating and looking for relief at the bottle bottom of a bottle.

那是唯一管用的办法，因为我需要麻木自己。

And it was the only thing that worked, but I needed to numb.

我需要让自己彻底麻木。

I needed to self numb.

我需要让大脑逃离一会儿。

I needed my brain to take a trip.

我需要去度个假。

I needed to go on a vacation.

我只是想暂时不去想那些糟糕的事，可没有酒，我根本做不到。

I needed to to not think about all these ugly things for for just a little while, and I didn't find myself able to do that without the help of a drink.

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，从我身边很多朋友都经历过产后抑郁这个角度，你能给我讲讲这其中的复杂性吗？

I mean, explain to me the complexity of and I and I asked this from the perspective of having so many friends who've gone through postpartum depression Mhmm.

而且这件事根本没人好好谈。

And it just not being talked about enough.

对。

Yeah.

就连刚发生的时候，我跟很多男性朋友聊，他们完全不懂自己的伴侣在经历什么，直到后来才意识到，原来有那么多女性都会经历产后抑郁。

And whether it be even initially when it happened, remember speaking to a lot of my male friends and them not understanding what their partner was going through, only then to realize that we were just unaware of, you know, the amount of women that go through postpartum depression.

你能说说，当你有了女儿之后，作为母亲那种复杂的心情吗？还有之后接踵而来的产后抑郁？

Talk to me about the complexity of the emotion of having your baby girl and the emotions that come with that as being a mother and then the postpartum depression that follows that?

从小我就梦想着当妈妈。

From a young age, I was dreamt of becoming a mom.

我一直都知道自己会当妈妈，也一直渴望成为妈妈。

Like, it was something that I always knew that I would be, always wanted to be.

我脑子里早就规划好了，我要当什么样的母亲。

And I had all these ideas in my head of the kind of per mother that I was going to be.

我打算在每个房间都装上摄像头，把每一个瞬间都记录下来。

And I was gonna have cameras in every room, and I was gonna capture this and that.

我还计划让她们参加各种课外活动，确保她们会说多种语言，脑子里早就勾勒出一幅完美的画面。

And I was gonna get them into all these these different extracurricular activities and made sure that they spoke different languages and made like, I had this this beautiful plan in my head.

可当我生下女儿后，我就知道，事情严重不对劲。

And then I had my daughter, and I knew something was just terribly, terribly wrong.

现在社会对产后抑郁还是有很多偏见，误解也很多。

And now there's a lot of stigma around postpartum, and there's a lot of misunderstanding.

这其实是一个范围，一种程度上的变化。

And it's on a there's it's on a spectrum.

它是一个连续的谱系。

It's on a scale.

幸运的是，我从未对女儿产生过任何敌意或负面情绪，这点我很庆幸。

And and, fortunately, I I never felt any hostility or negativity towards my child, you know, thankfully.

但我就是无法像预期那样与她建立连接，整天被压力和焦虑填满。

But I wasn't connecting with her the way that I knew I should be and that I was full of stress and anxiety all the time.

我用来压抑这些情绪的方式，既不正常，也不健康。

And what I was doing to to suppress those those emotions was not normal, and it was not healthy.

我过得特别痛苦。

I was miserable.

我整天都在掉眼泪，你知道吗？虽然喝酒能让我神经放松一点。

I was in tears all the time, you know, even though the alcohol helped, you know, my nervous system calm down.

酒精是一种抑制剂。

It it is a depressant.

时间一长，情况反而越来越糟，而不是好转。

So over time, it made things worse, not better.

短时间内，它可能让你觉得好多了，但最终只会适得其反，酿成大祸。

In a moment or two, it might feel give you the illusion that it's making things better, but ultimately, it becomes backfires, and it becomes a disaster.

但弗拉德一直特别支持我，尽管他根本不知道我经历了什么。

But Vlad was incredibly supportive even though he had no idea what was going on.

我自己也不明白发生了什么，因为我以前从没接触过任何有产后抑郁的人。

And I had no idea what was going on either because I had never been around anybody who had ever experienced postpartum depression before.

我从来没听人提起过这事，我妈妈，我身边的女性，没人说过一句相关的话。

I'd never heard it spoken about, you know, my my mom the females in my life, nobody ever said anything about it.

他们讲的全是那些美好、充满喜悦和爱的瞬间。

All of their stories were of of these beautiful positive moments of of joy and love.

我总说，期待会带来失望，但当时我确实有期待，而且是正面的、积极的，我觉得生活一定会变得特别好。

And I would say expectation leads to disappointment, but in this in this way, I had of course, I had expectations, and they were they were good, and they were positive, and they were they were gonna be life was gonna be great.

大概孩子四个月大的时候，我终于跟弗拉德说：我需要帮助。

And at about four months old, I finally went to Vlad, and I said I said, I need I need help.

我再也受不了这样的生活了。

I can't live like this anymore.

你明白吗？

You know?

事情不对劲，出大问题了。

Something is terribly wrong.

他说，好。

And he said, okay.

我们这就去帮你找人帮忙。

Let's let's get you some help.

我在节目停播期间去了一个康复中心，整个过程都是保密的。

I went to, a facility during the hiatus of the show, so it was kept, private.

但我去那里是为了戒酒。

But I was there for alcoholism.

他们给我治疗酒精依赖，却从来没提过产后抑郁的事。

They were treating me for alcoholism, and nobody ever said anything about postpartum depression there.

所以我觉得自己根本治不好。

So I I felt unfixable.

我觉得自己找不到出路，一直在想，也许这辈子都会这样抑郁下去，这就是我新的生活常态了。

I felt like there was no way the way out of it, And I was trying to process the idea that maybe I was gonna be depressed like this for the rest of my life, and this was just the new normal.

那真的太可怕了。

So that was terrifying.

我有个漂亮又乖巧的宝宝，健康可爱。

I had this gorgeous, sweet angel child, healthy.

我明明这么幸运，这么幸福，可自己却一团糟。

I was so lucky and blessed, and I was just a mess.

我当时真的乱成一团，根本不知道该怎么好好解决这个问题。

I was just a a mess, and there is nothing that I could I could do to fix it properly.

感觉身边没人能理解，因为这事儿 stigma 太重了，大家也根本不懂。

And there was it felt like there was nobody around who understood because there was so much stigma around it and because it's so misunderstood.

我花了大概十个月，自己不断研究、慢慢才弄清楚到底发生了什么。

It took me probably about ten months to really realize what it was that was going on of me researching and figuring it out myself.

天哪。

Wow.

你只能靠自己去摸索。

You had to do yourself.

因为我知道，你后来终于开口说起这事的时候，连代言合同都丢了。

Because I because I know also you talk about how like when you finally did talk about it, you even lost an endorsement deal.

是的。

Yep.

我跟露得清合作了整整十年。

Neutrogena, I was with for ten years.

他们合同里有道德条款，这对我影响特别大，那时候我还是个 teenager，满大街都是狗仔队，拍我那些难堪的瞬间。

And I mean, they have morals clauses, which was a huge had a huge impact in my my life, because I was I was a teenager, and I had all the paparazzi around me catching all of these gory moments.

每一支烟、每一套穿错的衣服，甚至我穿泳衣看起来有点胖，都被拿出来议论。

Like, every every moment, every cigarette that I that I smoked or bad outfit or, oh, she's looking chunky in a bathing suit.

说我的私处太胖。

Oh, she has a fat vagina.

这些我全都经历过。

I mean, I went through through all of that.

你懂的。

You know?

他们对我的一切都不放过。

They were there for for everything.

Neutrogena 是我生活中非常重要的一部分。

Neutrogena was a huge part of my of my life.

我签的就是这种含道德条款的合同。

I had the morals clauses.

他们什么都能抓到。

They caught absolutely everything.

在所有可能让我被解约的事情里，我怎么也没想到，居然会因为这个被开除。

And of all the things to that they would fire me over, this was the last thing that I thought they would ever fire me over.

当我真正走上舞台，和凯莉、迈克尔一起直播时，我根本没打算谈产后抑郁的事。

And when I actually went out onto stage, it was live with with Kelly and Michael, I had no intention of or plan to talk about postpartum depression.

事情就这么自然发生了，我只是说了实话。

It just came up, and I was just being honest.

我从来没想过会有人因此不高兴，更没觉得会有人对此有负面反应。

And never for a second did I think that anyone or cared that anyone would have a bad reaction to it.

那只是我的真实经历。

It was my truth.

所以当他们打电话来说，Neutrogena想因为我这件事解约我时，我的经纪人立刻说：这违法了。

So when I got that call that that Neutrogena wanted to fire me over that and my representative the time said, that's illegal.

你不能这么做。

You can't do that.

尽管那一年她力挽狂澜，但我心里清楚，这事儿就到此为止了。

And even though, you know, she saved the day that year, I knew that that was gonna be it.

我明白，明年肯定不会再邀请我了。

That there was gonna be I was not gonna be invited back the next year.

我跟这些人合作了整整十年，可那之后，居然没人给我发过一句话。

And I had worked with these people for ten years, and I remember not hearing a word from anybody.

连句‘跟你合作了十年真不错’都没有。

Not a great working with you for for ten years.

连句像样的告别话都没有。

Not a a nice

希望你一切都好。

Hope you're okay.

是的。

Yeah.

希望你过得不错。

Hope hope you're you're good.

我们真心祝你一切顺利。

We we wish you well.

我记得那件事真的伤透了我的心。

And I remember that really breaking my my heart.

我一点都不后悔，换作别的一切我都不换。

I wouldn't change it for the world.

我绝不会后悔当初的选择。

I I wouldn't take it back.

但正如我所说，在我做过的所有事里，他们唯独对这件事忍无可忍，觉得我道德败坏，这让我特别震惊。

But as I said, of all the things that I had been caught doing, that being the thing that that was where they drew the line, and it was immoral, was shocking to me.

这件事让我真正明白了，社会对产后抑郁的女性有多误解，有多大的偏见，而且我们本来就已经够痛苦了。

And it made me realize and understand exactly what people thought of women who experience postpartum depression and how misunderstood it is, how much stigma there is around it, and how, I mean, we're already in pain.

是的。

Mhmm.

我们本来就已经是被看作最糟糕的那种人了。

We are already, like, the worst possible thing.

对一个女人来说，最糟糕的事情之一，正发生在她身上。

One of the worst possible things in the world to happen to a woman is is already happening to her.

我们最不需要的，就是再添一把火，被人指指点点，还被这么负面地评判。

The last thing we need is, you know, the icing on the cake, you know, and feeling so judged and in such a negative way.

如果思想控制是真实存在的呢？

What if mind control is real?

如果你能控制身边任何人的行为，你会过上什么样的生活？

If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

你能通过催眠让人去买一辆车吗？

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?

当你看着你的车时，你会被一种特别美好的感觉淹没。

When you look at your car, you're you're gonna become overwhelmed with such good feelings.

你能通过催眠让人跟你发生关系吗？

Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?

我给了她一些建议，让她产生性冲动。

I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.

你能让人加入你的邪教吗？

Can you get someone to join your cult?

有人用神经语言程序学来接触我的潜意识。

NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.

神经语言程序学，也就是NLP，是催眠、语言学和心理学的结合。

NLP, aka neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology.

粉丝说，这就像终于拿到了大脑的使用说明书。

Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.

这关乎对意识的工程化设计。

It's about engineering consciousness.

《心灵游戏》讲的就是NLP的故事。

Mind games is the story of NLP.

它有一群疯狂的追随者，还有个假医生，他在一个新时代公社里发明了这套东西，然后卖给了那些穿西装的人。

It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits.

他曾经因谋杀受审，但最终被判无罪。

He stood trial for murder and got acquitted.

最大的心理操控是什么？

The biggest mind game of all?

说不定NLP还真管用。

NLP might actually work.

这太离谱了。

This is wild.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你常用的播客平台收听《心理操控》。

Listen to mind games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

当你感到不安的时候，你会听什么歌？

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

Biggie。

Biggie.

你不安的时候就听Biggie？

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable?

因为我想让自己更有自信。

Because I wanna get confident.

这里是DJ赫斯特·普林斯，音乐即疗愈。

This is DJ Hester Prins, Music Is Therapy.

这是我推出的新播客，我是一名DJ，也是一名持证治疗师。

A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist.

一整年，十二个生活领域。

Twelve months, 12 areas of your life.

金钱、爱情、事业、自信。

Money, love, career, confidence.

这不仅仅是一档播客。

This isn't just a podcast.

这是为你全年量身打造的非传统疗法。

It's unconventional therapy for your entire year.

在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客，或你常用的任何平台收听赫斯特·普林斯的《音乐即疗愈》。

Listen to DJ Hester Prun's music is therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是贝利·泰勒，欢迎收听《女孩，就是现在》。

I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is it girl.

你可能通过我这些年在纽约街头做的‘It Girl’系列认识我。

You may know me from my it girl series I've done on the streets of New York over the years.

有个好消息要告诉你。

Well, I've got good news.

我会把这些采访，还有更多内容，带到这个播客里。

I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast.

对。

Yes.

我们会聊风格和成功，但也会谈压力、期待，以及当下正在塑造文化的女性们真正面对的挑战。

We will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

作为这个行业里的女性，你总是被低估。

As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated.

所以你得付出更多努力，还要在不违背自我和原则的前提下，去推动别人对你的看法。

So you have to work extra hard and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity.

我常说自己像个沉默的忍者。

You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja.

每周我都会和女性创业者、创意人士以及领导者进行坦诚的对话，聊聊她们的抱负、公众视野，以及在聚光灯下真正打造有意义事业需要付出什么。

Each week, I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye.

因为当一个‘It Girl’，重点不在于站在聚光灯下，而在于你能否真正掌控它。

Because being an It Girl isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it.

我觉得这些负面的部分必须被说出来，尤其是对那些不是每天都经历这些的人。

I think the negatives need to be discussed and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day

对。

Mhmm.

好让他们了解真实的情况。

Just so they know what's really going on.

揭开幕布，让大家看到背后的东西，我觉得很重要。

Feel like pulling the curtain back is important.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple Podcasts 或你常用的播客平台收听《It Girl》与贝利·泰勒的对话。

Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

你希望人们了解产后抑郁的哪些方面，是他们通常忽略的？

What do you want people to know about postpartum depression that you think they miss?

这是真实存在的。

That it's real.

不是我们编出来的。

That it's not something we make up.

也不是我们想要的。

It's not something we want.

不是我们脑子出问题了，更不是我们乐意经历的事。

It's not, you know, that we've we've we've lost our our marbles, and and it's not something that we want to go through.

当我们说不对劲的时候，我们没撒谎，无缘无故流泪也不是装的。

And and we're not lying when we tell you something's wrong, and and we're we're in tears for absolutely no reason.

我们根本控制不了这些，这绝对是最后一种我们想遭遇的经历。

Like, we don't have control over this, and this would be the last thing that we would ever want to experience or go through.

我们明明想陪着刚出生的孩子，满心欢喜，觉得是世界上最幸运的人，想记录下每一个瞬间。

We wanna be with our child our child, our brand new child, and have be filled with joy and feel like the luckiest person in the world and and, you know, capture every every moment.

任何人要是觉得不是这样，那就是完全不了解真相。

And for anyone to think otherwise is just misinformed.

是的。

And, yeah.

我只是觉得大家需要更多地了解这件事。

I I I just I think people need to know a lot more about it.

需要真正理解。

Need to understand.

你们去的那家机构帮到你戒酒了吗？还是说最后是什么真正帮到了你？

Did the facility you visited help you with the alcoholism, or what what finally actually helped with that?

我跟这个问题抗争了好多年。

Oh, I struggled with that for for years.

很长一段时间里，我时好时坏，走出那种抑郁真的很难。

It was an on and off battle for a really long time, and getting out of that depression was really difficult.

我没时间好好疗愈自己、修复自己，弄清楚该怎么应对这一切、找回原来的自己，因为当时我在拍《纳什维尔》，拍摄量太大了。

And the fact that I didn't have the time to really spend on, on healing myself and and and fixing myself, figuring out, you know, how to navigate this and get back to my old self because I was on Nashville, and we were shooting so so much.

有段时间，我不得不跟剧组说：我得去接受治疗了。

I mean, at one point, I did have to say to the show, I have to go get treatment.

我不得不让编剧把我从剧本里删掉，这惹恼了不少人，也让我特别难受，因为我一直以专业为傲，但那时候我真的必须把自己理清楚，不然我真要彻底垮了。

You're gonna have to write me out of the script, which upset a a lot of people and made me feel awful because I didn't I I'd always prided myself in being on being a professional, but it was incredibly important for me to get my head screwed on straight or I or I was gonna, you know, I was just gonna going off the deep end.

我感觉自己越陷越深，掉进了一个怎么也爬不出来的黑暗深渊。

I was I was I felt myself sinking further and further and further into this dark hole that I just could not climb out of.

我读这本书的时候，感觉你一路走来，困难一个接一个，越来越难熬。

When I was reading the book, it just felt like the challenges just get tougher and tougher and tougher and tougher and tougher as you kind of, you know, go go through it with you.

而且，你刚入行那会儿，这些事也好像根本不是你主动选择的。

And they also seem kind of, again, just as your career in the beginning stages was almost not a choice.

对。

Mhmm.

很多事情都是这样，好像只是发生在你身上，没错。

All of these things also feel that way where it's kind of like just happening to you and Yeah.

因为这些事根本不是你能选择要不要发生的。

Because of, you know, just there's there's not a it's not a choice to bring these things on.

没错。

No.

没错。

No.

刚生完孩子，经历产后抑郁，还有那一堆乱七八糟的事，再加上根本没人谈这些。

Coming off, you know, of course postpartum depression and everything else that's happening through that and also not having these conversations.

像今天，成百上千万人听了这个对话，能更清楚地明白这到底意味着什么，现在大家对这些事的讨论也在慢慢多起来。

Like today, you know, millions of people will listen to this conversation and be able to have a better understanding of what that means and And what that looks today the conversation around these things is growing.

但离该有的程度还差得远。

It's still not where where it needs to be yet.

确实如此。

And Right.

可惜还是不断有糟糕的新闻、无聊的八卦，真是让人无奈。

Sadly, there are still terrible headlines and terrible gossip and Agreed.

有人编造出各种荒唐的故事来抹黑别人。

Terrible stories made up about people.

但至少现在，这些话题终于开始被谈起来了，你也觉得，好吧。

And but these conversations are beginning to happen, and you go, okay.