贾纳维：当生活令人不堪重负时，如何培养内心平静（当你的思绪停不下来时，这个简单的日常练习！）

我相信。

I believe.

但当你在某种环境中长大，随着年龄增长，你必须做出选择，因为你要决定这些价值观是否仍然属于你。

But when you're raised in something, you have to choose as you get older because you choose whether this value is still yours.

这一点有趣之处在于，它同样适用于任何在常规体系中长大的人，因为你从小就会接受父母的某些信念，而到了某个时刻，你会停下来想：等等，我真的相信这些吗？

And the interesting thing about that is that also just applies to anyone who grew up in the normal system because you grow up with certain beliefs your parents have and at one point you pause and you go, wait do I even believe this?

没错。

Exactly.

所以你的父母可能认为你不该太拼命工作，或者该娶一个努力工作的男人；你的父母也可能坚信你应该做自己喜欢的事，或者永远不要做自己喜欢的事，而应该选择安全可靠的道路。我认为我们都会在二十多岁和三十多岁期间经历一些反思的时刻。

So your parents might have believed that you shouldn't work that hard or you should marry a man who works hard or your parents may have had the belief that you should always do what you love or you should never do what you love, you should do what is safe and is reliable and I think we all go through our 20s and 30s and have reflection points.

是的。

Yeah.

那时我们会说：嗯，我父母是这么想的，但我并不这么认为。

Where we say, well, yeah, my parents believed that but I didn't.

这适用于人生的方方面面，但尤其明显地体现在那些在特定传统或特定道路上成长的人身上。

And so it applies to all of life but obviously very specifically aligns to someone who's grown up in a specific tradition, in a specific path.

嗯。

Yeah.

音乐是什么时候从热情、探索和好奇转变为精通的？

When did music go from being passion, exploration, curiosity to mastery?

因为我觉得这是非常重要的一部分。

Because I think this is such an important part.

我经常听到有人说追随你的热情，我觉得这没问题，但如果你要把它变成职业，那么在某个时刻，热情必须转变为熟练和精通。

I think I hear a lot of people who say follow your passion and I think that's okay, you know, but if you're gonna turn it into something you do professionally, the passion at one point has to turn in to proficiency and mastery.

你是什么时候真正开始掌握你的艺术和技艺的？

When did you start to actually master your art and craft?

那是什么样的过程？

What did that look like?

我完全不认同‘大师’这个词。

I don't identify with the word master in any way.

我说这话并不是出于虚假的谦虚。

And I don't mean that in a falsely humble way.

我只是觉得，我还在表面摸索。

Just, Yeah, I feel like I'm very much scratching the surface.

但我认为这是非常自然发生的。

But I think that it happened very organically.

当我18岁的时候，我开始对自身的传统产生更独立的兴趣，并深入参与曼陀罗冥想和基尔坦实践。

Started to When I was 18, I started to develop more of an independent interest in my own tradition and really engage with the Mantra meditation practice Kirtan.

而且，我知道我从大约10岁就开始学习小提琴，那段时间我基本上只在自己的卧室里，和老师一起练习。

And also, know, I'd been studying the violin since I was about 10 years old and that was always something I did basically in my bedroom and in my room with the teacher.

我从未真正用我的乐器在公共场合演奏过。

I never really used my instrument in a public place.

我曾经在一支管弦乐队里演奏过一天，结果被欺负了，于是我心想：我不回去了。

I did one day in an orchestra and I got bullied and then I was like, I'm not going back.

所以，我一度陷入困惑：我为什么要学这个乐器？

So it was a very like I got to a point now I was like, why am I even learning this instrument?

直到我开始在寺庙里参加基尔坦演奏并尝试即兴，我才意识到，除了参与这项活动之外，我在音乐上其实也能提供一些东西，可以发展和精进。

So it was only when I started playing it at the temple in the Kirtan and trying to improvise, I realized that aside from just participating in this activity, musically there's something I can offer, something I can develop and refine.

最初，这通过小提琴与我建立了联系。

Initially that was my connection through the violin.

那是我的声音。

That was my voice.

我太害羞了，不敢唱歌。

I was too shy to sing.

但我觉得一切实际上都源于此，因为通过小提琴，我正好在我本科毕业之际加入了一个正在组建的曼陀罗音乐团体，而我当时还不知道自己接下来要做什么。

But I think everything actually stemmed from there because through the violin, ended up joining a Mantra music group that was forming at the time right as I was finishing my undergraduate degree and I did not know what I was going to do next.

我主修英语和创意写作、语言学。

I studied English and creative writing, linguistics.

这些学科让我非常感兴趣，但我完全不知道该如何运用它们。

It was very interesting to me, but I had no idea what to do with it.

就在毕业前一个月，我得到了一个机会，去全美乃至世界各地巡演。

And this opportunity came like a month before my graduation to tour all over America and all around the world it ended up being.

所以这简直是不二之选。

So it was a no brainer.

我当时就想：对，我就想做这个。

Was like, Yeah, I want to do that.

我以为最终还是得找份正经工作。

I thought that it would just be I still felt like, Well, I'll have to get a regular job.

但我并不知道那会是什么工作。

I didn't know what that was.

后来我确实当上了一本杂志的编辑，但当我准备去上班时，我之前已经在巡演了，于是我写信给他们说：抱歉，我不能去了。

I actually then I did get a job as a magazine editor, but I got the job and then right when I was meant to go back and take it, I was doing this touring beforehand and then I just wrote to them and I said, I'm sorry, can't.

我觉得我得继续做我现在正在做的事。

I think I need to keep doing what I'm doing.

这触动了我的灵魂，我想。

It was speaking to my soul, I guess.

所以一切都很自然地发展下来了。

So it's been very organic.

一路上我确实经历了很多自我怀疑，因为任何从事创意或艺术工作的人家都知道，这种职业根本无法保证你能维持生计。

Think I have struggled with a lot of doubt along the way because anyone who does anything creative or artistic knows that there's no assurance of any kind of ability to maintain yourself, have a livelihood with that activity.

因此，年复一年地坚持下去，这确实是一种信仰和勇气的体现。

And so it's a real act of faith and courage to just keep going with it year upon year.

所以我曾多次不断质疑自己：现在是不是该找一份更稳定、更可预测的正经工作了？

And so I was many times constantly questioning myself, okay, so is now the point when I should get a regular job or something that's more predictable and stable?

你觉得在唱歌和创作音乐时，你会以一种其他方式无法触及的方式感受到神圣吗？

Do you think you experience divinity when you sing and make music in a way that you don't access through any other practice?

我会说，是的。

I would say yes.

是的，我会。

Yeah, I do.

我认为，通过声音接触神圣，这是一个极其深刻的理念。

I think it's an incredibly deep idea that you can access Divinity through sound.

声音如此微妙，不需要任何乐器或工具，只需你自己的声音，而且只需要专注当下。

Sound being so subtle, not requiring any instrument, any tool, just your own voice, and it just requires presence.

这虽然非常玄妙，但我感觉任何人都能体验到它。

And it's very esoteric but I feel like anyone can experience it also.

我们有耳朵去聆听，有声音去表达。

We have ears to hear, a voice to use.

是的，我记得刚开始意识到这一点时，大概是在我小时候，我经历过许多非凡的时刻。

Yeah, I remember first starting to become aware of that around I mean, I had many incredible moments when I was a child.

有时候人们问我关于基尔坦的最早记忆，那真有太多精彩的经历。

Sometimes people ask me what some of my earliest memories of Kirtan and there's so many incredible times.

每年都会举办一个节日。

There was a festival that would happen every year.

我们会列队步行穿过伦敦，前往巨大的巴特西公园，那里会搭起许多帐篷，活动一直持续到深夜，基尔坦从下午一直唱到晚上。

We would walk in procession through London to this huge park, Battersea Park, and there would be a festival, many tents there till late at night and the Kirtan would be going all afternoon into the evening.

我只记得自己感到无比快乐，虽然精疲力尽，但内心却被这段经历深深填满。

And I just remember feeling so joyful, so exhausted, but like so filled by that experience.

我想我大约在十六七岁的时候才真正注意到，哇，这里真的有些特别的东西，我渴望回到这种状态。

I think I started to really notice that, wow, there's something really special here around sixteen, seventeen, eighteen and feel like I want to come back to this.

当你感受到那种情绪时——我想你可以用很多方式来形容它，但你就是想一直继续下去。

How you feel when you I guess there's so many things you could liken that to, but you just, yeah, you wanna keep doing it.

你发现当人们因为大声唱歌会感到紧张吗？因为这是一种应答式的吟唱，尤其是在现场，人们会跟着回应。

What have you found when people are because I think singing out loud can feel so nervous for people because it's this call and response where you're chanting and people are responding back, especially when you're live.

是的。

Yeah.

你在举办静修等活动时，看到人们经历了怎样的转变？他们一开始在活动中非常紧张和焦虑。

What have you seen like the transformation people have had where they start off, because you do retreats etcetera, where they start off really nervous and anxious in the report.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

但后来你看到他们变成了什么样？即使那些觉得自己‘五音不全’、不喜欢自己声音的人也是如此。

And then what have you seen that turn into even for people who think like, I can't sing to save my life or you don't like the sound of your voice or whatever it may be.

是的。

Yeah.

我的歌声，我讲话时非常自信，但……

My singing voice, I'm very confident speaking but

我听过你唱歌，我……

I've heard you sing, I

我觉得你可以，这太糟糕了。

think you Yeah can it's terrible.

我觉得你能唱。

I think you can sing.

我知道你肯定在撒谎。

I know you're lying for sure.

现在我有证据了，昨晚你提到那件事的时候就是在撒谎。

Now I have proof that last night when you were talking about that thing you were lying.

但是，那对你来说到底是什么呢？

But what, yeah what is that for you?

你看到过什么样的变化？

Like what have you seen?

我对那些正在听的人很感兴趣。

I'm intrigued for people, anyone who's listening right now.

所有正在听的人，希望你们会去Spotify或者Apple，搜索Jonah V。

Anyone who's listening right now, hope you're gonna go to Spotify or you know Apple and type in Jonah V.

哈里森，你知道吗，你现在有大约13.4万月度听众，如果有人听了你的音乐，或者打算来看你的现场演出，那会怎样呢？

Harrison and you know I'm looking, you've got like 134,000 monthly listeners right and if someone was to listen to this music or they were gonna come and see you live Yeah.

你会说，嘿，大家跟我一起唱，这在这些活动中非常常见。

And you'd say, hey, everyone sing along with me, which is very common at these events.

是的。

Yeah.

如果有人一开始很紧张，或者不太明白，你见过人们在静修和活动中如何随着时间转变吗？

If someone's nervous in the beginning or doesn't quite get it, how have you seen people transform over time through retreats and events?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得感到紧张是非常正常的。

I think it's really normal to feel nervous.

我认为很多人，甚至可以说绝大多数人，在大声唱歌时都会有些不自信。

I think many people or even I would say most people have some level of insecurity about singing out loud.

我觉得这件事美妙的地方在于，你是在和其他人一起唱歌。

I think the beautiful thing about it is that you're singing with other people.

所以你根本不需要大声唱歌，你可以唱得很轻，但那种团结的感觉——我的意思是，如果我们去听音乐会，或者不知道的足球比赛，大家都会一起唱同样的歌。

So you're not even there's no demand that you even sing really loud, know, you can sing very quietly but feeling that togetherness, I mean, we experience we all can experience that if we go to a concert or I don't know football match, everyone's singing the same thing together.

这种体验既令人振奋，又具有极强的连接感，很少有其他事情能像这样。

It's empowering and it's connecting in a way that few things are of that nature.

所以我甚至会说，你知道，有些引领这种音乐的人更强势、更有命令感，比如，

So I would even say that you know some people some people that lead this type of music are more strident or commanding and like,

来吧，大家一起唱。

come on everyone sing.

我知道，我性格比较内向，所以我特别能理解那种紧张的感觉。

Know, I I think I being a more shy nature, I really empathize and understand how that feels to feel so nervous.

所以我并不期望人们强迫自己去做那种让他们感到极度不适的事情。

So I don't I don't expect people to, you know, push themselves in a way that feels just too uncomfortable.

我总是告诉人们，如果你愿意，可以在心里唱，因为我们也有内在的声音。

I always tell people if you want to sing internally, because you have we have an internal voice as well.

你可以在心里默默歌唱。

You can sing back in your heart.

我在飞机上感到压力大的时候就会这么做。

I do that on the plane if I'm stressed.

我会听一些音乐，然后用内心的声音跟着唱。

I listen to something and then I sing back with my inner voice.

但这非常令人解脱，我见过人们通过释放声音、放下拘束，意外地变得放松和自在。

But it's incredibly freeing and I've seen people relax and become free in a way that they didn't expect by letting go and letting their voice out.

你知道，最初感觉不舒服的事情，之后通常会带来极大的成就感。

Know, everything that feels uncomfortable initially usually feels you feel a great sense of achievement afterwards as well.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

你觉得人们为什么会寻找你的音乐？

What do you think people turn to your music for?

比如当人们发现你的音乐时，是的。

Like when you're finding people discovering your music Yeah.

那些不属于这个传统、对此不熟悉的人。

Who are not from the tradition, who don't, aren't familiar with it.

嗯。

Yeah.

他们找到了什么？

What do they find?

我的意思是，你今年好像是Spotify年度回顾中Rathi的头号艺人。

I mean like you were Rathi's I think number one artist on Spotify wrap this year.

是啊，她家一直在放你的歌。

Yeah, been She's playing in the house all the time.

你觉得人们是想寻找什么？

Like what do you think people are, yeah, what are people seeking?

你发现了什么？

What have you found?

我可以告诉你们人们跟我说的话，我觉得人们说他们找到了一种平静、庇护和安慰的感觉。

I can say what people tell me, which is I think people say that they find a sense of peace, a sense of shelter and comfort.

很多人告诉我，他们在困难时期会听我的音乐。

A lot of people tell me that they listen to my music in difficult times.

太多人告诉我，他们正在备考，父母身体不适，家人病危，或者正准备结婚，而在婚礼当天走进来时，他们播放了我的音乐。

So many people say, yeah, I was studying for exams, my parent was unwell, someone in my family was dying or I was getting ready to get married and then I played your music on my wedding day as I was coming in.

这些是生命中具有过渡性且意义重大的时刻。

These kind of transitional and very meaningful moments in life.

很多人提到，他们会在清晨第一件事或深夜最后一刻播放我的音乐，以连接到一种深刻的祈祷或神圣的空间。

A lot of people talk about playing my music first thing in the morning or last thing at night when they want to connect to a place of deep prayer or a sacred space.

是的，我想这就是人们所寻找的。

Yeah, I think that's what people find.

我总是被人们的故事深深震撼，你知道，归根结底，作为一个人——我仅代表我自己——我们非常清楚自己的人性、缺陷，以及我们带入每一件事中的所有东西。

And I'm always blown away by people's stories, you know, because ultimately you as a person or or I speak for myself like we're we're so aware of our humanness and our flaws and everything that we bring to, you know, we bring all of it to every endeavor.

因此，能通过我的音乐让人进入那种深深连接的境地，对我来说真的不可思议。

So it's really incredible for me that I can do something that allows someone to enter into that space where they feel so deeply connected.

因为我知道，这并不是因为我个人，而是因为我允许自己被用来传递这种力量，但我知道背后有更深层的力量在起作用。

Because I know that that's not, it's me because I'm allowing myself to be used in that way but I know that there's something a lot deeper that's happening.

是的，每次我在你的活动中，我都忍不住在后面强忍泪水。

Yeah, every time I mean, every time I'm in one of your sessions, I'm like just at the back to the hold back my tears.

我见过，我见过

I've seen that, I've seen

是啊，我努力不哭，但这真的很奇怪，因为你根本无法解释清楚。

Yeah, trying not to cry, I'm like, it's strange though because you can't really explain it.

是啊。

Yeah.

很难用语言描述，你只能亲身去体验一次。

It's so hard to put into words where you just gotta be in one.

我的团队成员来参加过我的课程，当然，我们这里的朋友也来过我家举办的活动。令人惊叹的是，你根本不需要懂语言，甚至在某种程度上，虽然你总会解释它的含义，但即使有人不知道它的意思，也很有趣，因为声音具有这种潜力。

And I've had like my team has come to sessions, obviously we have friends here who've come to events at our home And it's amazing how you don't need to know the language, you don't really, you don't even need to know to some degree, I know you always explain what it means but even if someone doesn't know what it means, it's so interesting how, and sound has that potential.

想想看，比如现在的拉丁音乐，已经变得如此全球化。

Think, you know, if you look at even music right now, like Latin music is, you know, so global now.

是啊。

Yeah.

你看，像Bad Bunny这样的波多黎各音乐人，他们的音乐风格已经风靡全球，而这正是音乐的美妙之处——它超越了语言，也超越了你的成长背景。

You know, you've got Bad Bunnies, Puerto Rican and that style of music has taken over and you've got, and that's what's so beautiful about music in general is that it's so beyond language and so beyond where you grew up.

是的，它会传递。

Yeah, it transmits.

它会传递，没错。

It transmits, yeah.

真的能感受到。

Really feel it.

是的，这非常特别，我确实在曼陀罗音乐中以一种意想不到的方式感受到了这一点。

Yeah which is so special and I definitely feel that in, you know, in mantra music in an unexpected way.

是的。

Yeah.

不过我想说，近年来，我的创作旅程也开始尝试写一些原创歌曲，并将它们融入到我的音乐会中。

Although I I would say, you know, I've started to also experiment with well, experiment, but part of my creative journey in the last few years has been to to write original songs also and incorporate that into especially when I do concerts.

你知道，我觉得在不同场合下提供不同的内容是有必要的。

You know, kind of distinguish certain settings for certain offerings I think.

很多时候，我会以非常传统的方式带领冥想和基尔坦，当人们知道该怎么做、已经准备好时，这种体验会非常亲密。

Know, there's a lot of times I'll lead meditation sessions with Kirtan in a very traditional sense and it has a very it can have a very intimate feeling especially if people are they know what to do, you know, they're ready.

但在一个更可能是剧场式的环境中，我不确定‘剧场式’是不是合适的词，比如在礼堂里，可能有些观众从未接触过这种形式。

But in a in a more maybe I don't know if theatrical setting is the right word to use, but in in an auditorium where there may be people who have never done this before.

我开始将这些传统颂歌与一些原创的英文歌曲交织在一起，因为这不仅是一种帮助他人建立祈祷语言连接的工具，对我自己而言，我发现它带来了一种脆弱感和个性化的表达，而在我看来，成长过程中可能会觉得这种表达是禁忌的，因为克尔坦实践的核心并不是让你自己成为焦点。

I've started to weave together, these traditional chants with sometimes original songs in English because it's not only just a tool for for making a connection point for someone else with a language of prayer, but for me also I found it to be something that brings a certain vulnerability and personalism, to which I think in some ways growing up, would have thought that that was taboo because the practice of Kirtana is very much not about you putting yourself there.

它真正的是成为容器，成为通道，传递纯粹的声音。

It's really being a vessel, being a channel to just give this pure sound.

但我认为，分享个人的祈祷、个人对生命、对真理、信仰与美的追寻的反思，也有其价值。

But I think that there's some value as well in sharing a personal prayer, a personal reflection on just being someone trying to go through life and be connected to to truth and faith and beauty.

是的。

Yeah.

如果有人想从你的某张专辑开始听，你希望他们从哪一张开始呢？

If someone wants to start with one of your albums, would you like them to start?

比如有人这么说：我想了解一下，但对它几乎一无所知。

Like if someone was like, I want to check this out, don't really know much about it.

是的。

Yeah.

你推荐哪一张？

What would you recommend?

如果有人对传统的颂歌和真言感兴趣，我的第一张专辑《如河入海》是个不错的选择。

I think if someone's curious in the just mostly the traditional songs and mantras, my first album, Like a River to the Sea is a great one.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我认为很多人对我和威洛合作的专辑《升起》很有共鸣。

But I I think a lot of people connect with the album that I did with Willow called Rise.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我的最新专辑《步入森林》，我觉得《升起》和《步入森林》很相似，它们都融合了真言和一些原创歌词。

And then my recent album Into the Forest, I think Rise and Into the Forest are similar in that they incorporate both mantras and some original lyrics.

太棒了。

That's great.

嗯。

Yeah.

对于刚开始接触的人

For anyone who's starting out

他们的，嗯。

their Yeah.

他们想要进入颂歌音乐领域，但从未有过相关体验。

Their journey of wanting to, you know move into devotional music and never had the experience of it.

或者他们

Or they

应该听听Raddie的歌单。

should check out Raddie's playlist.

Raddie的歌单，对对对。

Raddie's playlist, yeah yeah yeah.

很多人告诉我，哦，我是通过Raddie发现你的音乐的，嗯。

So many people tell me, oh I found your music through Raddie's Yeah.

她那里收藏了大量其他优秀艺术家的作品。

She's got a great collection there of also many other wonderful artists.

是的，我喜欢这个，太喜欢了。

Yeah, I love that, love that.

你认为人们对灵性人士有什么误解吗？

What's a misconception you think people have about spiritual people?

我觉得人们往往对灵性人士有很多投射，觉得你们特别神圣，整天飘来飘去，满口智慧箴言，对吧。

I think people tend to project a lot onto spiritual people that they're like, you're so divine and you're like, you must float around your house all day, you know, spouting like wisdom quotes and Yeah.

这正是我每天在做的事。

That's exactly what I do.

我见过你穿长袍的样子。

I've seen you in your robes.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为一个误解是，灵性人士没有疑虑、没有物质欲望、不会犯错。

I think a misconception is that spiritual people don't have doubts, don't have material desires, don't make mistakes.

但实际上，所有这些显然都是错的，或者认为灵性人士知道一切答案。

Well, all all of those things obviously are true or that spiritual people have all the answers.

试图追求一种与精神核心相连的生活是勇敢的，因为这需要一种信仰，而这种信仰并不总能获得明确的答案。

Think to try to pursue a life connected to a spiritual core is courageous because there is a level of faith that's required where there's not always a hard, hard answer.

虽然有很好的答案，但你仍需保持开放的心胸，不断学习和放下，而这非常非常困难。

There's very good answers, but you also still have to be very open hearted and constantly open to learning and surrender, which is very, very difficult.

是的，这个回答太棒了。

Yeah, such a great answer.

没想到会是这样，但确实是个很棒的回答。

Not what I expected, but yeah, such a great answer.

是啊，每个人都是凡人，都在努力，都在犯错。

It's, yeah, everyone's human and everyone's trying and everyone's failing and everyone's making mistakes.

我认为问题在于，当你认为精神上的人是完美的，你就会因为觉得自己没达到别人所达到的、或你认为自己应该达到的境界，而丧失内在的精神感，这反而会阻碍你前行。

I think the problem is when you think that a spiritual person is perfect, then you don't feel spiritual internally because you don't feel like you've reached what other people have reached or what you should have reached and that can actually deter you from the path Yeah.

因为你觉得自己不像那样。

Because you think, well, I'm not like that.

是的。

Yeah.

他们看起来一切都井井有条，因此我一定不够有灵性。

And they have it all together and therefore I must not be spiritual.

嗯。

Yeah.

没有意识到我们本质上本来就都是。

Not realizing that we all already are inherently.

嗯。

Yeah.

完美可能是目标和追求，但通往它的过程远比一个顿悟的瞬间更渐进、更一步一个脚印。

And perfection may be the goal and the aspiration, but the journey towards it is far more incremental and step by step than it is this enlightened day.

我觉得，你知道，我总觉得人们总爱问：‘你是在哪一天顿悟的？’

I think, you know, I think that's a misconception I always think is people are always like, what was the day you've realized?

对。

Right.

我从来没有过那样的时刻。

I have not had that.

不，光是从云层中降下的。

No, the light came down from the clouds.

是的，again，这是媒体对它的描绘，让人感觉你有一个顿悟的时刻。

Yeah, again, it's how media has portrayed it where it feels like you have this day of enlightenment.

是的。

Yeah.

就像我有过非常特别的冥想，有过非常特别的经历，但那是前进三步，后退一步，停顿两步，再前进三步，你知道的。

It's like, I've had really special meditations, I've had really special experiences but it's three steps forward, one step back, two steps pause, three steps forward, you know.

有时是倒退十步。

Sometimes 10 steps back.

完全正确。

Totally.

你会想，我哪里做错了，或者

You're like, what am I doing wrong or

而这正是本该如此的。

And that's what's meant to be.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我发现，随着我因进行曼陀罗冥想和奉献性神圣音乐而逐渐为人所知，越来越多的人带着闪闪发亮的眼睛来找我。

I do find that, you know, I encountered that the more that I became publicly known for doing Mantra meditation and devotional sacred music, I would start to encounter more and more people coming to me like with, you know, shining eyes.

我能感受到，有时从他们说的话中很明显，他们不自觉地把我奉为神明，认为我身上有什么完美的东西，而我知道这并不真实。

I could feel and sometimes it's very obvious by the words they say that they they are for want of a better phrase putting me on a pedestal or thinking that there's some kind of perfection, you know, happening which I know is not true.

我认为，这在一定程度上是因为，任何引导我们进入灵性实践或体验的人，我们都会将那个人与我们所获得的那种真实感受联系起来。

And I think part of that is anyone that's kind of facilitating us to go into a spiritual practice or experience, we may associate that person with the feeling and the very real experience that we get.

但我觉得，随着年龄增长，尤其是学会接纳自己的不完美、对自己保持耐心，我确实不得不学会对自己非常有耐心，因为我们有幸认识许多在生活中和行为上真正堪称楷模的人。

But I think as you get older especially just accepting both your own being patient with your own flaws, I've definitely had to learn to be very patient with myself because we're blessed to know so many people who truly are exemplary in their life and their actions.

是的，我承认，当我看到某些人时，会想：天啊，我永远不可能变得有灵性。

And yeah, I mean, I identify without looking at someone thinking, God, you know, I'm never gonna be spiritual.

嗯。

Yeah.

你曾经相信但现在不再认同的灵性观念是什么？

What's something that you used to believe to be true spiritually and now you don't agree with it?

我认为，在某种特定的灵性传统中长大，你会不断受到这个传统本身的肯定和验证。

I think growing up in a particular spiritual tradition, you can have You're surrounded by constant affirmation and validation of that tradition.

如果你身处一个社群中，周围都是相信这条道路和这些修行方式的人。

If you're immersed in a community, you're surrounded by people who believe in that path, in those practices.

随着我不断成长，接触到各种背景、拥有不同经历的人，我不确定是不是我完全不再相信某些东西，但它确实挑战了我过去所听到的、因为身边所有人都说‘是的，是的’而轻易接受的许多观念。

And I think the more that I've grown and encountered people from all different walks of life who've had all different kinds of experiences, I don't know if it's so much something that I don't believe anymore, but it challenges a lot of things that I've heard, things that I've just accepted because everyone around me was saying yes, yes.

我非常珍视这一点。

And I really value that.

我觉得这是必要的。

Feel that's necessary.

但这并不总是容易的，因为有时不同世界观和观点之间的冲突并没有简单的解决办法或答案。

But it's not always easy because sometimes there's not an easy resolution or answer to conflicting worldviews and opinions about things.

所以，这是我旅程中经常遇到的问题。

So that's something that I've encountered a lot on my journey.

有时甚至是同一宗教或信仰大类中的人，但具体的信仰分支却不同。

Sometimes it's even people that are within the same broad category of a religion or a faith tradition, but you know, strands of specific beliefs.

其中有很多细微差别，是的，我觉得要像这样断言‘这就是答案’越来越难了。

There's so much nuance and yeah, I think I've found it harder to be like, this is the answer.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

是的，

Yeah,

是的，是的，我同意，我认为这是件好事，而且从简化的角度来看，大脑也不喜欢这种复杂性，它更倾向于拥有一套固定的信念并继续沿用，即使这些信念并不健康。

Yeah, yeah, agree, I think it's a healthy thing and it's also, the brain just doesn't like it for simplicity's sake, it's just easier for the brain to have its set of beliefs and move with them even if they're not healthy.

当然。

Definitely.

所以当你允许自己置身于悖论之中时，这会很有挑战性，这也是我们回避它的原因。

And so when you allow yourself to be in a paradox, it's challenging and that's why we avoid it.

这就是为什么我们更倾向于非黑即白、非左即右的二元思维。

That's why we prefer left or right or black or white or binary thinking.

因此，我在自己身上发现，我努力这样生活。

And so I find that in my own self, I try and live it like that.

我总是试图活在维恩图的中间，尽量不陷入二元对立。

I try and live in the middle of the Venn diagram always like trying not to be binary.

是的。

Yeah.

但这很难，因为选择一个立场并坚定地相信这是真理，或者彻底否定它，要容易得多。

But it's hard because you're, it's so much easier to pick a place to live and say, yeah, I'm gonna go all in and believe this is the truth or I'm gonna refute it.

但实际上，有些事情是有道理的，有些事情则没有道理。

And it's like, well, no, there's things that make sense and there's things that don't make sense.

今天早上我刚对某人说，有趣的是，我们总是讨论杯子是半满还是半空。

And I was just saying to someone this morning, I was like, it's funny how we've always talked about how whether the glass is half full or half empty.

而我觉得，它既是半满也是半空。

And I'm like, it's both.

是的。

Yeah.

就像一直都是两者兼有。

Like it's always both.

这根本就是一个愚蠢的问题。

Like it that's just a stupid question.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为

Because

你能想象吗？一只眼睛用一个镜片，另一只眼睛用另一个镜片？

Could you see it could you see it through like, could one eye have one lens and the other have the other lens?

完全可能。

Totally.

就像事物在

And it's like things at

同一时间，是的。

the same Yeah.

两件事都是对的。

Both things are true.

如果一个玻璃杯半满，那么它也就半空。

If if a glass is half full, it is therefore half empty.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，正确的答案是我看到了两者。

And so therefore the right answer is I see both.

对。

Right.

如果你看到了两者，那就意味着我可以把杯子装满。

And if you see both, it means I can fill the glass up.

是的。

Yeah.

这也意味着我有更多可以喝。

And it also means I have more to drink.

所以，关于你看到的是杯子半满还是半空，答案是两者皆是，但大脑并不想接受这个答案，它只是想选择其一。

And so this idea of do you see the glass is half full or half empty, The answer is both but it's the brain doesn't want the answer, the brain just wants to choose one or the other.

因此，我们要么成为自己信念的积极拥护者，要么成为消极悲观者，却忽视了大多数事物都既有好的一面，也有可以改进和成长的空间，但大脑为了简化认知，更倾向于非此即彼。

So we either become positive or, you know, evangelists of our beliefs or we become negative and pessimists of that belief and we don't recognize that most things have lots of good in them and lots of things that they could improve and grow but it's the brain for simplicity sake prefers one or the other and

是的，有时候很难感受到，因为你也并不总想选择特定的方向，或者你知道，我们所做的选择需要有明确性，有时为了保持正直，你必须界定事物，到底是这个还是那个？

Yeah, sometimes it's hard to feel, you know, it's difficult because you also don't wanna be sometimes you have to choose a specific direction or, you know, there is specificity to the choices we make and and sometimes, you know, for integrity, you need to kind of define things, you know, is it this or is it that?

但不管怎样，是的。

But anyway, it's yeah.

这也非常依赖于上下文。

It's very context based as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我发现。

I find.

但我不确定是不是因为我本身也在努力与那种状态建立联系，我知道很多人告诉我，有很多人在宗教环境中长大，经历过很多严厉的评判甚至创伤。

But I don't know if it's because of me also trying to connect with that space, I know a lot of people have told me that, you know, there's so many people who have grown up in religious environments who have experienced a lot of heavy judgment or trauma even.

这似乎比不常见更普遍，或者至少我遇到的都是些会谈论这个话题的人。

It seems more common than not sometimes or at least maybe I just encounter people who speak about that.

我很受鼓舞，因为有人在参加我的活动或聚会时说，他们觉得这里是一个安全的灵性空间，不会被强加任何东西。

And I've felt encouraged that people have said when they've come to my events or gatherings that they feel it's a safe space to be in a spiritual space but not have something imposed upon them.

而且

And

我对这一点感到高兴。

I feel happy about that.

我想努力保持这种张力。

Want to try to hold that tension.

我不知道这是否算张力，但更像是在坚持自我原则与明确性的同时，创造一个对每个人都包容、友好的空间。

I don't know if it's tension, but it's like walking a path of integrity and specificity oneself, but being able to create space that feels very inclusive and welcoming for everyone.

你一生中是否经历过什么特别艰难的事，让你觉得信仰在帮助你度过难关中起到了关键作用？

Has there ever been anything that's really difficult that you've gone through in life that you feel your faith has been integral to moving through?

我觉得还没有遇到过像某些重大事件那样的情况，比如失去亲人，这些常常引发深切的悲痛与哀伤，有时会促使人们进行灵性探索。

I don't think there's been a life event like, you know, some of the huge things that happen or, you know, losing a loved one, things like that that are often the cause of a deep grief and sorrow that sometimes leads to a spiritual search.

但我认为我经历过信仰危机，而走出危机正需要信仰。

But I think I have experienced crisis of faith which required faith to come out of.

这很好。

That's good.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实让我感到意外，你知道的。

Which, yeah, took me by surprise, know.

我认为，尤其是当你习惯于对自己所相信的东西确信不疑时，一旦这种信念突然消失，就会感觉像脚下的地毯被抽走了。

I think the experience, especially if you're used to being someone who who that's something that you do feel sure of, and then when it's suddenly not there, it can feel like rug is pulled out from under your feet.

我感到自己不太确定我是谁了。

And felt like I'm not quite sure who I am.

就像一本涂色书，你有明确的线条，颜色只能填在线条内，但想象一下，如果这些线条突然消失了，你却依然在涂色。

Like in a coloring book, you you've got the lines and that's like the defined color within the lines, but imagine if the lines just disappeared and you just color.

那么，没有了这些，我是谁？

Like, who am I without that?

我经历过好几次这种情况。

I have experienced that a couple of times.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这个回答挺有意思，因为就像我上周主持的关于信仰与灵性的节目一样。

It's an interesting answer because yeah, it's like how I hosted the variety faith and spirituality on his last week.

是的。

Yeah.

我在谈论那些获奖和受表彰的人，他们展现了不同类型的信仰。

And I was talking about how the people who are being awarded and honored, they've showed different types of faith.

我说过，它展现了信仰、混乱的信仰、失去信仰。

And I was saying it showed having faith, messy faith, losing faith.

这正是它如此真实的原因，我认为信仰类内容或人们有时总是被描绘成单一的面孔。

And that's what makes it so real where I think faith based content or people sometimes have always been shown as one note.

我们觉得，你就是这样的一个人。

We're like, this is who you are.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们觉得，你应该是这样的人。

We're like, this is the kind of person you should be.

没错，你必须相信。

Yeah, you gotta believe.

对，对。

Yeah, yeah.

而现在，我认为我们正在展现信仰和灵性多样化的表现形式，这要真实得多。

And now I think we're showing these variegated depictions of what faith can look like and spirituality can look like and it's just so much more real.

对，很有共鸣。

Yeah, relatable.

是的，真实、接地气、易接近，而且真正坦诚，因为信仰本就可以如此。我想，如果一个人在信仰危机时，信仰是如何帮助他重新审视信仰的呢？

Yeah, relatable and grounded and accessible and yeah, just truly transparent because that's what it can look like and I think if anyone is a person of, how did faith help you refine faith when there was a crisis of faith?

我认为有一段时间，虽然并不长，但由于那种迷失感，感觉比实际时间要久得多，仿佛信仰完全消失了。

I think there was a period of time and it wasn't that long but because of the disorientation that I felt, it felt a lot longer than it was I think of feeling like the faith had just totally evaporated.

那是一种黑暗，因为曾经为你带来大量光明、内在支持和滋养的东西，似乎突然消失了，或者更像是蒸气——它真的存在过吗？

And it like a type of darkness because something that had previously given you a lot of light and internal support and nourishment just seems to disappear or no, it seems like vapor that is Was that actually real?

我认为信仰几乎像是通过一个针孔渗入的，就像一束光从细小的裂缝中透进来，然后逐渐增强。

And I think faith almost, it felt like it seeped in almost like through a pinhole where you get light that just comes through a tiny crack and it gradually grows.

但最初，我必须有一点点信仰，才能相信信仰有可能以某种方式回归。

But initially there had to be a speck of faith for me to think that faith could even return in a way.

我必须对这种可能性保持开放。

I had to be open to that.

通过这段经历，我发现自己更自发、更个人化地与祈祷连接，而不是通过仪式化的崇拜或固定的实践或常规，而是更自发、更富有表现力地进行。

And I found through that experience I connected more to prayer spontaneously and personally versus more ritual type of worship or a set practice or routine more spontaneously, more expressively in English.

有趣的是，我从小就在充满祈祷的环境中长大，整天都在祈祷，因为那就是我所处的环境。

And it's funny because I grew up you know, completely steeped in prayer like throughout the day because that's just the environment I was in.

我一直在回想我成长过程中周围的声音环境。

I was thinking about the soundscape of my of my life growing up.

总是有钟声响起，而且在我的传统中，我们会吹响这种海螺。

There was always bells ringing and, you know, in in my tradition, we blow this conch shell.

周围充满了这些灵性的声音和古老的梵语咒语，梵语对我来说是一种非常熟悉的话语。

There's these kind of spiritual sounds around and ancient mantras, Sanskrit was a very familiar language for me.

但我缺乏自信和自在感，无法用我日常 spoken 的语言祈祷，也无法真正地独自一人，坦诚地说出内心涌现的任何话语。

But what I didn't have confidence and ease with was praying in the language that I speak and actually being that personal to just be alone and speak those words, whatever was coming up.

我认为这对我来说是一段非常具有变革性的经历，甚至直接促成了我后来录制的一些歌曲，因为最终我想，你通常不会觉得这种如此个人化、具体的内容值得录下来。

And I think that was a really transformative experience and time for me and actually led to some of the songs that I've recorded because eventually I thought, you you don't always think like that I should record this because it's so personal and specific.

但我确实感到，一定还有其他人经历过类似的时刻，感受到这些情绪，这些歌曲或许能帮助他们表达出那些难以言说的言语。

But I did feel that I bet there are others who go through these times or who feel these emotions who may it may enable them to express words that they they can't find the words to say.

你觉得我们都需要跟加穆尔交谈吗？

Do you think we all need to talk to Garmur?

百分之百。

100%.

百分之百。

100%.

是的。

Yeah.

在我们聊天之前我就在思考这个问题，因为我在想，你知道，在过去——我不确定是不是过去十年——当然，‘正念’这个词我们已经听得太多了。

I was thinking about this ahead of our chat because I was thinking about how much, you know, in the last, I don't know if it's the last decade, but of course mindfulness is a word that we've heard so much.

冥想已经在很多方面变得如此融入生活。并不是说每个人都在做，但如果你提起它，可能没人会觉得你奇怪。

Meditation has become something that is so in many ways integrated into It's not that everyone does it, but if you say it, no one's gonna probably look at you funny.

你可能会看到人们在广告中这样做，或者，我一直记得走进一家店，我想是Gap之类的，在商业街上，那些模特像这样以莲花坐姿坐着。

You might see people doing in an ad or, you know, I always remember walking into, I think it was Gap or something, know, on a high street and there were these mannequins sitting like this in a lotus position.

我当时想，哦，有意思。

I was like, Oh, interesting.

这就像是渗透进了日常文化和时尚中。

This is like filtering into just everyday culture and fashion.

但我在思考冥想如何能将我们带入这种宁静和内在连接的空间。

But I was thinking about how meditation can bring us into this space of stillness and internal connection.

但我究竟在冥想什么？

But what am I meditating on?

对我来说，达到一种扎根、宁静、平静心灵的状态，与祈祷之间有着明显的区别。

And the difference between just coming to a place of groundedness, stillness, calming the mind, and prayer to me is quite distinct.

这是我个人的看法。

That's my personal take on it.

有人可能会用不同的方式使用这些术语并加以描述，但我觉得，无论你是否曾经做过祈祷，或者即使你从小就有过这样的经历，有时候人们会说，试着用你的左手或非惯用手做点什么，因为这会让你有所领悟，或让你以不同的方式看待事物。

Someone may use those terms differently and describe it differently, but I feel like, yeah, if prayer is not something that you've ever done or even if it is something that's familiar that you did grow up with, feel like, you know, sometimes they say, just try doing something with your left hand or your non dominant hand because it will reveal something to you or you'll feel a different way of looking at something and doing something.

是的，这可能是听众们愿意尝试的事情，无论是第一次接触，还是通过另一种途径来体验。

I yeah, it might be something that listeners would like to try you know, to to either approach it for the first time or approach it through a different pathway.

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个说法。

I like that.

这几乎像是开辟了一条新的神经通路。

It's like a new neural pathway almost.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

那为什么不试试呢？

So why not try?

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

有时候祈祷涉及很多不同的方式，有些人非常自发，有些人则有非常仪式化的方式，比如将身体摆成特定姿势或进行某些动作。

Sometimes it sometimes it involves, you know, there's so many different ways that people pray for some people it's very spontaneous, some people have a very ritualized way of placing their their body in a certain position or doing certain actions.

我认为所有这些方式都是为了让我们进入某种心态和存在状态，从而能够表达那些在自然状态下难以触及的最深层情感。

And I think all of those things are designed to bring us into a certain state of mind and of being that can allow you to express some of deepest sentiments that are otherwise quite hard to access in a natural way.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

对我来说，我喜欢在开车时和上帝交谈。

For me, like I find I love talking to God when I'm driving.

我也这样。

I do that.

做

Do

这个。

that.

这是我的

That's my

最喜欢的。嗯。

favorite Yeah.

我经历过的最艰难的时刻之一，就是你刚刚提醒我的那个时刻。

And one of the hardest times I experienced that was the time, you just reminded me of that.

我会独自开车时，说话、哭泣、唱歌。

I would just talk, yeah, driving by myself, cry, speak, sing.

我觉得开车非常有疗愈作用，是倾诉思绪的好地方。

I find driving to be so therapeutic and a place to share streams of thoughts.

是的。

Yeah.

我总是很喜欢这样。

And I always love it.

这让我想起《王牌天神》里的场景，他一直在向神求一个征兆。

I think it also reminds me of that Bruce Almighty scene where he's like asking God for a sign.

是的。

Yeah.

神不断给他各种征兆，他却一直忽视，直到他的车掉下桥之类的。

God keeps sending him loads of signs and he keeps ignoring them and then his car goes off the bridge or whatever it is.

我会一直留意周围的迹象，开车时把广告牌上的内容当作上帝的讯息，这种想法很有趣，觉得我所读到和看到的东西似乎蕴含着某种力量，我特别喜欢这样。

I'm like, yeah, I'm always looking around for signs and I'm driving and connecting billboards God's message and to it's just like this fun idea that there's some, you know, there's some power in what I'm reading and seeing so I love that.

在进入最后五个问题之前，最后一个问题是。

Last question before the final five.

当你感到迷茫时，会问自己什么问题？

What's a question you ask yourself when you feel lost?

我是否与我的内在连接，是否在为他人服务？

Am I connected with my, I being of service?

此刻，我真的与服务连接在一起了吗？

Am I actually connected with service in this moment?

因为你相信，如果你与服务相连，你就找到了属于自己的位置。

Because you believe that if you're connected to service, then you have found where you belong.

是的，我觉得这是一种保护性的存在状态，因为它能保护你免于陷入彻底迷失的体验，因为你专注于给予。

Yeah, I feel like it's a state of being which is protective because it's protective of the experience of being totally lost because you're focusing on giving.

作为有血有肉的人很难，你知道的，因为各种各样的原因，很容易感到迷失。

It's hard being embodied human, you know, it's so easy to feel lost for so many different reasons.

但当你思考如何帮助他人时，无论这种帮助看起来是什么样子，我发现这真的对我很有帮助。

But when you're thinking about how you can serve someone else, whatever that may look like, I find that that really helps me.

这是一个非常好的回答，我完全同意。

It's such a great answer and I couldn't agree more.

我认为现代教育和现代空间的一大缺失是，一切都围绕着‘你’，而不是他人。

And I think one of the biggest losses of modern education and modern space where everything to solve you is all about you and not about anyone else.

对此也有研究显示，如果你患有抑郁症，而你去帮助其他患有抑郁症的人，你的抑郁症状会减轻。

There's been studies on this too, like if you have depression and you help people who have depression, your depression goes down.

因此，即使在非常困难的状态下，服务他人的行为仍然能对你自己有所帮助。

And so even in a really difficult state, the act of service can still be helpful to yourself.

更不用说当事情没那么糟糕的时候了。

What to speak of when things are not that bad.

对我来说，令人着迷的是，我们总是认为‘如果我拥有更多，就能给予更多’，但事实上，无论你现在身处何种境地，你可能已经比某些人拥有更多了，只要你能以某种方式提供帮助——无论是时间、精力还是金钱，只要这是你帮助他人的方式。

And yeah, it's fascinating to me how we always think, oh, if I have more than I'll be able to give more but actually wherever you are just now, you already may have a little more than someone else and if you can help and support in whatever way, time, energy, money, if that is your way of helping.

是的，我喜欢这个回答。

Yeah, love that answer.

太棒的回答了。

Such a good answer.

我每天都会念这个祷告，这是一句传统的梵语祷告。

It's something I've been trying to say this prayer every day and it's a traditional Sanskrit prayer.

我不会把所有词都念出来，但它以一句话结尾，意思是‘仆人的仆人’。

I won't say all the words, but it ends with the phrase and that means, you know, servant of the servant.

有趣的是，我小时候在宗教社群里，某些行为会变成人们习以为常的做法，从外面看可能有点奇怪。

And, it's funny when when I when I was growing up, and you know, this this is one of those things that in a in a religious community, a certain thing becomes a way that people do things, which from the outside can seem a bit weird.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以每个人写信或留言时都会署名‘你的仆人’。

And so everybody would sign a letter or a message, your servant.

我不记得是什么时候了，也许是我们去探亲时，我突然用另一种眼光看待这件事，心想：‘这听起来一定很奇怪’，因为在普通世界里，‘仆人’这个身份并不被看重。

And I can't remember when it happened, maybe we were visiting some relatives or something, but I just saw that through a different lens and I thought that must sound so funny because the idea of being a servant is not something that we would regard very highly in a sort of like regular world.

但这是一个非常深刻的精神理念：把自己视为仆人，作为一种根本身份，能让你始终寻找贡献和给予的方式。

But it's a really profound spiritual idea that to identify as a servant as like an essential identity keeps you always looking for ways to contribute and give.

所以，是的，我发现这对我帮助很大。

So, yeah, I find that really helps me a lot.

是的，我认为这很有趣，因为人们常常误解，以为这意味着我必须保持低调。

Yeah, I think if you, it's really interesting because I think the misconception of that is when we think, oh, that means I have to stay small.

是的，或者意味着我会被利用，没错。

Yeah, Or that means I'm gonna be exploited Correct.

被某人。

By someone

这几乎就像是一个‘宾迪式’服务型领导运动。

And it's almost like there's the Bindi servant leadership movement.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至这个想法，你可能是公司的首席执行官，但把自己视为为他人服务。

And even the idea of, oh, you could be the CEO of a company and see yourself in service of others.

是的。

Yeah.

这与你在社会中的地位无关。

Like it's not based on your position in society.

是的。

Yeah.

这取决于你做这件事时的心态和意图。

It's based on the mood and intention that you do that act with.

所以，有人可能是世界上最大足球队的教练，却把自己视为为球队服务。

So someone could be the coach of the biggest soccer team in the world and see themselves as serving their team.

是的。

Yeah.

也有人可能是世界上最好的球员，却把自己视为为球队服务。

And someone could be the best player in the world and see themselves as serving their team.

或者你可能拥有所有这些身份，却认为自己是世界上最了不起的人，其他人什么都不是，这与你的外在地位毫无关系。

Or you could be all those things and think you're the best thing in the world no one And else is so it's got nothing to do with your external position.

我认为我们常有的误区是，觉得我的外在地位必须与之匹配。

And I think the problem we think is, oh, my external position has to match that.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以我不会。

So therefore I won't.

我得保持低调。

I've to be small.

是的，我得保持低调，表现得渺小，这毫无意义，因为。

Yeah, I've got to be small and play small and it doesn't make any sense because.

嗯，我想理解。

Yeah, I'd like to understand.

我想更深入地理解和掌握这一点，因为我仍然对此感到困惑。

I'd like to to understand and grasp that more deeply because I I I think I still struggle with that.

比如，在我们的友谊中，你一直鼓励我接纳自己所做的事情，不要害怕成长，把我的工作作为服务不断扩大。

Like, you've always, you know, in our friendship, you've always encouraged me to to embrace what I'm doing and be, you know, unafraid to to, I guess grow and broadcast out what I'm doing bigger and bigger as a service.

但当你更显眼或处于领导地位时，要持续调和‘我在服务’这一理念与领导地位所伴随的那些事物，真的很难。

But it's so difficult when you're more visible or more in a position of leadership to continue to kind of, yeah, harmonize that that idea that I'm I'm serving, but also have to kind of have the things that go along with being more in a in a leadership position.

我不知道。

I don't know.

对我来说，我觉得这很有挑战性。

For me, I I find it find it challenging.

是的，我不同意。

Yeah, no, don't disagree.

我认为，当你越接近自己独特的服务时，就越不会去想它是大还是小，而只会觉得那就是属于你的东西。

I think that the more closer you get to your unique service, the less you see it as big and small and the more you see it as just yours.

因此，这种区别会逐渐消失，因为这 Clearly 是你命中注定要做的事。

And so there is no, it kind of fades away because it's so clearly what you were meant to do.

是的。

Yeah.

那样的话，你就不会再觉得它是宏大、扩展的，还是渺小、不重要的。

That then you don't see it as big or expansive or small or not.

是的。

Yeah.

它就是如此。

It's just is.

嗯。

Yeah.

因此我发现，那些了解自己使命和达摩的人，嫉妒心更少，比较心更少，也不那么执着于对错。

And therefore I find that people who know their purpose and their dharma are less envious and less comparative and less Right.

所有这些都因为他们找到了自己的道路。

All of those things because they just found their thing.

嗯。

Yeah.

你不可能去成为或做别人正在做的事，因为这是正确的。

You can't you know you can't be or do what someone else is doing because Correct.

你非常了解自己，而且

You you know yourself so well and

正确。

Correct.

而且你做自己事情的时候感到内心一致。

And you feel aligned in what you're doing.

我想，我想我正逐渐达到那种状态。

I guess I guess I'm coming to that.

我现在正走向那个境界。

I'm coming to that now.

我觉得我终于接受了自己正在做的事情，这就是我。

I think I've finally accepted myself as doing what I'm doing and this is who I am.

这花了很长时间。

It's taken a long time.

是啊，上帝和宇宙得提名你拿个格莱美奖，你才能明白这一点。

Yeah, well God in the universe had to nominate you for a Grammy to get you to understand that.

我的意思是，他知道我需要一个巨大的推动力。

I mean, he knows that I need a big push, know.

是啊，我喜欢这样。

Yeah, I love it.

一月，能认识你真是太好了

January, it's been so nice getting to know you

这个感恩

this Thank

我知道我们已经聊过很多次了。

Like I know we've had so many conversations.

我的意思是，每当你来我家，我们都会熬夜聊上好几个小时。

I mean, whenever you're over at the house you come over, we'll like, you know, stay up and talk for hours and hours and hours.

是啊。

Yeah.

我喜欢这些对话，但我更高兴能和大家分享你。

You know, I love having these conversations but I feel, I'm so glad I get to share you with the community.

我知道你几年前就来过，那是

And I know you've been on before few years back now, that was

大概是2020年。

like 2020.

是2020年吗？

Was it 2020?

是的，那时你在旧的Wow地方，

Yeah, was in your old Wow, place,

是啊，很高兴你再次回来。

yeah, old amazing to have you back on.

谢谢，我是这个播客的粉丝。

Thank you and I'm a fan of the podcast.

所以这对我来说非常酷。

So this is like very cool for me.

很高兴你来这里。

It's awesome to have you here.

正如你所知，我们每集结束时都会进行一个‘最终五问’。

And we end every episode as you know, a fan of the podcast with a final five.

这些问题的回答必须限制在单词或一句话内。

These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

哇。

Wow.

每个人只说一句话，没人知道。

Everyone does one sentence, no one knows.

好的，好的。

Okay, okay.

所以，贾娜维·哈里森，这是你的最终五问。

So Janavi Harrison, these are your final five.

谢谢

Thank

你。

you.

第一个问题：你听过或收到过的最好的建议是什么？

Question one, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

别害怕。

Don't be afraid.

是谁告诉你的，你还记得吗？

Who told you that, do you remember?

我从很多不同的人那里听过，但我认为是我的父母和导师。

I've heard it from many different people but I think my parents, mentors, yeah.

在《薄伽梵歌》里也有提到，就是不要害怕。

And it's there in the Bhagavad Gita, just don't be afraid.

是的。

Yeah.

但要相信自己，有勇气，继续朝着你的目标前进。

But have trust and courage and keep walking forward on your purpose.

第二个问题，你听过或收到过的最糟糕的建议是什么？

Number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

任何与别人会怎么想有关的建议。

Anything related to what will other people think?

definitely,

Definitely,

确实。

definitely.

当你说自己想做某事时，别人却问：别人会怎么说？

It's when you say you wanna do something and goes, what will they say?

别人会

What will

我该怎么做？

I do?

是的，这是个很好的回答。

Yeah, that's a good answer.

第三个问题：你有没有做过一个在逻辑上说不通，但对你来说却是正确的决定？

Question number three, is there a decision you made that didn't make any logical sense but was the right one for you?

我故意错过回家的航班，去接受一份杂志编辑的工作。

The decision I made to on purpose miss a plane home to take up this job as a magazine editor.

我一向是个守规矩的人，但那次我明明订了机票，却故意错过，直接决定放弃它。当时这完全说不通，第二天早上醒来时，我还纳闷：我到底干了什么？

I'm always like a real rule follower and the fact that I had a flight booked and that I intentionally missed it and just said, I'm gonna drop that, That didn't make any sense at the time and the the next morning when I woke up I was like what did I do?

但我认为我当时是在追随一种更深层的直觉，而它最终引导我走向了此刻以及许多其他时刻。

But I think I was trying to follow a deeper intuition and it turned out to to lead me to this this and many other moments.

但我花了很长时间才意识到这一点。

But it took a long time for me to realize.

是的。

Yeah.

在这个过程中，我必须对这个决定保持信心。

Had to have confidence in that decision along the way.

是的。

Yeah.

我很高兴你这么做了。

I'm so glad you did that.

第四个问题：有什么东西是你曾经重视但现在不再重视的？

Question number four, what's something that you used to value that you don't value anymore?

我觉得我过去非常在意别人的看法，但这并不意味着我现在就不在意了，而是我一直在努力调整，因为我意识到，过分在意别人的想法和言论会带来多大的伤害。

I think I used to put a lot more value on other people's opinions and that doesn't mean that I don't now, but it's something I've actively worked on because I've realized how damaging it can be to place that much weight and concern on what other people are thinking and saying.

但我不知道我是否能更早达到那个阶段。

But I don't know if I could have come to that point any earlier.

这是成长的一部分。

It's part of growing up.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

这是最重要的一点。

It's the biggest one.

一个奇怪的观点。

A weird one.

这几乎像是你要选择听哪些人的意见，因为我们所有人都得听一些人的，就像我们在灵性中谈到的，必须有一些权威感。

It's almost like you want to choose which opinions you listen to from which people because we all have to listen to some, like, and you know, as we talk about in spirituality, there has to be some sense of authority.

挑战在于，当你赋予每个人对你的权威时，你突然就开始平等地倾听每一个人，尽管他们缺乏权威、能力或品格。

The challenge is when you give everyone an authority over you and all of a sudden now you listen to everyone with equal, you listen to everyone with equal attention despite their lack of authority or competence or character

我们等到那个时候。

We wait to that.

给没有价值的东西赋予分量。

Give weight when it doesn't have any value.

我认为这就是问题所在。

And that's what I think is the issue.

我们都得听别人的意见，但我们给了那些根本不了解我们或那件事的人太多权重和价值。

We all have to listen to someone but we give too much weight and value to people who don't know anything about that or us.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我过去在这方面走到了极端，可能是因为成长在一个环境中，人们期望你尊重地倾听任何比你年长或比你更懂的人。

I think I used to do that to the extreme probably because of also growing up in an environment where you're expected to, you know, respectfully hear from anyone who's older than you or, you know, knows more than you.

但没错，我肯定还在成长中。

But yeah, I'm a work in progress for sure.

现在我想出了一个系统，每当我想像个僧人一样思考时，这样更容易，因为在灵性圈子里我在这方面挣扎得很厉害，但一般来说，我总结出了一套叫做‘四个C’的方法，即品格、关怀、一致性和能力。

Now I came up with a system whenever think like a monk to make it easier because I struggled with that so much in spiritual circles for sure, but in general, and I came up with something that I call the four Cs, which is character, care, consistency and competence.

因此，我会思考我面临的问题，然后根据这四个标准中的一个来判断该向谁请教。

And so I think about the problem that I have and then I figure out who I'm speaking to based on one of those four.

如果是道德问题，我必须向品德高尚的人请教，因为如果我只是问关心我的人，他们可能会为了我而扭曲道德。

If So it's a morality question, I have to ask the person of high character because if I just ask the person who cares about me, they may bend morality in my favor.

或者，如果我担心自己的健康，我就必须找一个既关心我又有能力的人交谈。

Or if I am worried about my health, I've got to talk to the person who cares about me but is also competent.

而那些总是陪伴在我身边的人，可能并没有最好的见解和建议。

Whereas the person who consistently be around me, they may not have the best insight and advice.

比如，如果我跟我妈妈谈，她只关心我有没有好好吃饭，但她不会给我最好的工作建议，因为她更希望我照顾好自己，而不是为了工作而拼命。

Or like, for example, if I talk to my mom, she just cares if I've eaten well but she won't give me the best work advice because she'd prefer I take care of myself than do something good for work and so.

所以这四个条件必须同时具备吗？还是针对不同情况有不同的侧重？

So do they all four have to be there or it's different things for different services?

我认为没有人同时具备这四个特质。

I believe no one has all four.

哦。

Oh.

不同的决定需要不同的考量。

And there are different things for different decisions.

嗯。

Yeah.

他们只是关心你。

And they just care about you.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以他们的建议有偏颇，他们的看法也是如此。

So their advice is skewed but their opinion is also.

我最喜欢的一句话是：不要听从未去过你目的地的人的指引。

One of my favorite quotes says, don't take directions from someone who's never been to where you're going.

我们所有人都这样，总是采纳某人的意见，而他们根本没去过那里。

And we all do that, we all take someone's opinion and they've not even been there.

他们从未到达过那个地方，也未曾实现过那个目标，我们却坐在这里把他们的话当金科玉律。

They've never reached that or achieved that and we're sitting here taking their word as gospel.