詹姆斯·卡梅隆：揭秘史上最具标志性电影人的内心世界（最大风险、重大失败及其成功的关键原则）

我大脑的这部分正坐在电影院里，和几百个人一起接收并评判它，心想：嗯，这真酷。

That part of my brain is sitting in a movie theater with hundreds of other people and receiving it and judging it like, okay, this is cool.

我喜欢这样，你知道的。

I like that, you know.

你知道，你会试图深入探究创作过程。

And you know, you try to drill down on the creative process.

我是个作家，我坐在那里，盯着空白的屏幕。

I'm a writer, I'm sitting there, I'm looking at a blank screen.

你从哪里开始呢？

Where do you start?

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道的。

You know.

很多作家都以非常不同的方式来做这件事。

And a lot of writers do it in very different ways.

有些人会从第一页开始，比如鲍勃走在街上，然后就这样线性地往下写。

Some start, you know, page one, you know, Bob walks down the street, you know, and then it just goes from there in a linear fashion.

对我来说，这个过程更像是一个扩散模型那样逐渐成形。

For me, it coalesces probably almost in a diffusion model kind of way.

我会开始写笔记，一些画面会浮现在脑海中，然后我把这些笔记拼凑起来。

I start writing notes and little images come to me and I start putting the notes together.

比如在《阿凡达》续集的创作中，我写了超过一千页的笔记。

And for the Avatar sequels, for example, I wrote over a thousand pages of notes.

只是一些零散的片段。

Just little fragments.

梦境和画面，有时梦境会发挥作用，有时只是白日梦的过程，那个创意引擎。

Dreams and images and And sometimes dreams play a part in that and sometimes just the daydreaming process, that creative engine.

因为我认为，那种夜间失控、非线性、混乱蒙太奇风格的创意引擎，实际上在白天更有用，可以被引导专注于某个主题并持续深入。

Because I think that same creative engine that runs at night out of control, nonlinear chaotic montage style is actually more functional during the day and can be kind of directed to stay on a topic and follow it through.

你知道，也许我会想着一个角色，然后突然有什么想法冒出来，接着我就会开始写这个。

You know, so maybe I'll be thinking about a character and then something will pop into my mind, you know, and then I'll start writing about that.

那时我并不是在讲一个线性叙事，你知道的。

And it does I'm not trying to tell a linear narrative at that point, you know.

这变成了一种对话。

And it becomes a bit of a dialogue.

我记得有一次，我坐在写作办公室里，心想：如果有个孩子出生在基地里，会怎么样呢？

So I remember the time I was sitting there in my writing office and I said, well, what if there was a kid that was, you know, a kid that was born on the base.

如果他和一群纳威小孩在森林里玩耍，面具坏了，他们得救他，又会怎样？

And what if he was out in the forest with his Navi little kid friends and his mask got messed up and they had to save him.

他快没气了，于是事情就发展成了一整件事。

He was running out of air and it became a whole thing.

于是我想象出整个情节：一场与时间赛跑的救援，把他送回基地，我想，这真是个不错的故事。

And so I imagined this whole thing about a race against time to get him get him back to the base and I thought, okay, that's a pretty good story.

那如果这个孩子是勇气的儿子呢？

Now what if what if that kid was Courage's son?

然后我 literally 写下了：不。

And then I wrote, literally wrote, nah.

没人会相信这个。

Nobody would believe that.

你知道的。

You know.

然后我继续写更多的笔记，三四页之后，突然想到：等等，这其实真的很酷。

And then I'm going on writing more notes and about three or four pages later, it's like, yeah, but wait a minute, it would be really cool.

对啊。

Yeah.

你知道的，然后我就开始围绕这个想法发散，接着就成型了。

You know, and then I just started to riff on that and then it became alright.

那么，如果他是儿子，而人类的勇气在第一部电影中去世了呢？

Well, what if he was son and the human Courage dies in the first film.

现在，他成了孤儿。

Now, he's orphaned.

他的母亲可能也去世了，如果她是杰克所反对的军事团体的一员的话。

His mother maybe dies as well if she was part of the military group that Jake was opposed to.

现在他是孤儿，在潘多拉长大，还有纳威朋友。

And now he's an orphan and he's he's being raised on Pandora and he's got Navi friends.

如果他的纳威朋友是杰克的孩子呢？

What if his Navi friends were Jake's kids?

如果，如果，如果，如果呢。

What if what if, what if, what what if.

对吧？

Right?

写作过程就是这样。

That's how the writing process works.

然后突然间，灵感就来了，你根本无法忽视它们。

Then it just and all of a sudden, ideas just you can't turn away from them.

在播客《健康那些事》中，我们探讨所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。

On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.

是的，我是医生。

Yes, I'm Doctor.

普里扬卡·瓦利，一位双认证的医生。

Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.

我是哈里·昆达博卢，一名喜剧演员，曾经在凌晨三点搜索过‘我是不是得了坏血病？’

And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at 3AM?

在《健康那些事》中，我们以不同的方式探讨健康问题。

On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.

这不仅仅关乎我们能做些什么来改善健康。

It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.

还关乎我们的健康揭示了我们自身以及生活方式的哪些信息。

But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.

就像我们那一期关于糖尿病的节目。

Like our episode where we look at diabetes.

在美国，百分之五十的美国人处于糖尿病前期。

In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are prediabetic.

二型糖尿病有多大的可预防性？

How preventable is type two?

非常容易预防。

Extremely.

或者我们对芒果有多么出色的深入分析。

Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are.

哦，很难向世界其他地方的人解释，你的芒果其实挺好的，因为芒果真的太棒了，但你根本不知道。

Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know.

你根本不知道。

You don't know.

你不知道。

You don't

知道。

know.

这将是一段有趣的旅程，记得收听。

It's going to be a fun ride, so tune in.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《健康那些事》。

Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

当你把19年代的好莱坞混合在一起，会得到什么？

What do you get when you mix 19 Hollywood?

一位怀揣梦想的古巴音乐人，和有史以来最经典的处境喜剧之一。

A Cuban musician with a dream and one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time.

你得到的是德西·阿纳兹，一位开拓者、商人、丈夫，也许最重要的是，第一位打破黄金时段壁垒的拉美裔人士。

You get Desi Arnaz, a trailblazer, a businessman, a husband, and maybe most importantly, the first Latino to break prime time wide open.

我是威尔默·瓦尔德拉马，是的，我从小看着他长大，可能和你以及数百万其他人一样。

I'm Wilmer Valderrama, and yes, I grew up watching him, probably just like you and millions of others.

但对我来说，我在他的故事中看到了自己的影子。

But for me, I saw myself in his story.

从放置金丝雀笼子到今晚在这里纽约，这是一段漫长的路。

From planting canary cages to this night here in New York, it's a long ways.

在这部以德西·阿纳兹和威尔默·瓦尔德拉马为主角的播客中，我将带你们走进德西的一生。

On the podcast starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama, I'll take you on a journey to Desi's life.

他与我人生交叠的时刻，他如何重新定义了美国电视，以及这一切对所有在屏幕外等待看到与自己相似面孔的人意味着什么。

The moments he has overlapped with mine, how he redefined American television, and what that meant for all of us watching from the sidelines, waiting for a face like ours on screen.

这是一个关于一个人的光芒如何为无数人照亮道路，以及我们今天如何传承他遗产的故事。

This is the story of how one man's spotlight lit the path for so many others, and how we carry his legacy today.

收听由德西·阿纳兹和威尔默·瓦尔德拉马主演的《我的文化》播客网络，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

嗨。

Hi.

我是丹尼·夏皮罗，热门播客《家庭秘密》的主持人。

I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

我们当时在

We were in

车里，放起了《滚石》这首歌，他说：‘这里有一句歌词是关于你妈妈的。’

the car, like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

我说：‘什么？’

And I said, what?

如果我觉得自己不被接纳，我会选择一个别人无法拥有的身份。

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

我知道半夜发生了一些事，但我无法抓住那究竟是什么。

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

这些只是我将在即将播出的《家庭秘密》第十三季中分享的若干感人而重要的故事。

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming thirteenth season of Family Secrets.

无论你是从第一季就一直陪伴着我，还是刚刚加入《家庭秘密》大家庭，我们都非常高兴有你的加入。

Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one, or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us.

我将深入探讨秘密那不可思议的力量——那些塑造我们身份、考验我们关系，并最终揭示我们真实自我的秘密。

I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《家庭秘密》。

Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

那些创意点子，你有没有一套系统、仪式或流程来帮助你进入那种状态，还是说它更自然随性？我知道每个作家都有

Do those creative ideas, do you find a set of systems or rituals or processes that help you access that or is it more organic and I know all every writer's got

自己的方式。

their own process.

有些人，比如我，早上五点就起床，跑几英里，喝杯咖啡，然后坐下写十八页，写完就收工。

Some, you know, I'm up at 5AM, run miles, I have a cup of coffee, I sit down, I write 18 pages and then I call it a day.

对我来说，这是一个缓慢升温的过程。

For me, it's a slow boil.

我整天都在随意地琢磨。

I noodle around for most of the day.

到了一天快结束的时候，大概是下午四点或五点，我一直在玩味、做笔记，然后我会说：好吧，该写几页了。

I get to the point toward the end of the day, maybe four or five o'clock in the afternoon where I've been playing, maybe I've been doing notes and then I'll just say, okay, time to write some pages.

然后通常我会连续写三个小时，写出四五页。

And then usually for about three hours, I'll write pages and I'll get four or five pages.

到那时，一切会很快到来，你知道的。

It'll come fast at that point, you know.

那就是你在编剧中进入状态的时候。

And that's when you hit your stride in screenwriting.

是的，从你描述《勇敢之子》这场戏的方式来看，几乎有三条不同的故事线在你刚才提到的那一刻交汇在一起。

Yeah, you can see that the way you're describing the scene with Courageous Son because there's almost like three different storylines kind of connecting in that moment around that one thing that you just pointed out.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

但同时还有很多其他事情在发生。

But there's so many other things going on at the same time.

我通常会想出远多于一部电影能容纳的想法。

Oh, I usually come up with way more ideas than I could conceivably pack into a movie.

然后我会逐步筛选，删减成一个庞大臃肿、根本无法拍摄的剧本，再进一步删减，做出一部四个小时长的电影，然后再删减，最终得到的结果是最佳创意的层层提炼，这就是我称之为《火与灰》的那部精炼紧凑的独立电影。

And then I'll winnow that down, I'll winnow that down to a big old fat screenplay that's unshootable and then I'll winnow that down and then I'll make a movie that's four hours long and then I'll winnow that down and then what you get is the end result is the distillation of the distillation of the best ideas and then that's what winds up in the lean little tight indie film that I like to call Fire and Ash.

它只有三小时七分钟长，你知道的。

It's only three hours and seven minutes long, you know.

当我观看时，最令人惊叹的是，我很感激你上周让我去看这部电影。

What's incredible about it, when I watched it, I was so grateful that you allowed me to go see it last week.

正如我之前说的，当时在影院为我播放的那位先生告诉我，你希望我坐在哪个座位观看，我觉得这是一次非常美好的体验。

And as I said when I was there the gentleman in the theater who was playing it for me, he told me which seat you'd like me to watch it from which I thought was a beautiful experience to have.

我说，是的，我想坐在那个确切的座位上，然后

I said, yes I wanna sit in the exact seat and then

嗯，不过你搬回来倒是好事。

Well, no, it's good that you moved back though.

我确实搬回来了。

I did.

因为他说过我有这个选择。

Because I did He told me I had that option.

他说。

He said

我今天其实第一次这么做了。

I did that today actually for the first time.

我从后面那个座位看的。

I watched from the seat behind.

通常情况下，那是我审片时的工作座位，因为那里有个桌子，还有艾博特之类的设备。

Now normally that's my working seat when I'm reviewing because you could see that there's a desk there with an Abbott and so on.

但我心想，不如试试从那里看是什么感觉，那样我的视野边缘不会被填满，还能多一点像在镜框式舞台前那种掌控感。

But I thought, well, let me see what it's like from there where I it doesn't fill my peripheral field and I've got a little bit more of that sense of control that you have when it's a proscenium.

你知道吗，我想，哦，这其实相当不错。

You know, and I thought, oh, this is actually pretty good.

这太精彩了，但更重要的是，三个小时七分钟飞快地过去了，我一刻都没看手机，整整三个小时七分钟，对我来说，这正是衡量你是否专注、投入和警觉的标准。

It was spectacular but more importantly, three hours and seven minutes flew by, there was never a moment, I didn't look at my phone once three hours and seven minutes, to me that's the test today of having your engagement, attention and awareness.

对。

Right.

所以我们通过了最关键的考验。

So we passed the most critical test.

是的。

Yeah.

最令人惊叹的是，发生了这么多事情。

And the most magnificent thing is that so much happens.

是的。

Yeah.

你简直坐在椅子边缘，想知道接下来会发生什么，而这么多事情正在发生。

Like you're just on the edge of your seat wondering what's gonna happen next and so much is happening.

对。

Right.

在你的独立电影中做到三小时七分钟如此出色，真是一场视觉和听觉的盛宴，我感觉自己的所有感官都被充分调动了。

And to do that for three hours and seven minutes in your indie movie is, it's pretty, it's just an incredible feast for the eyes and ears and like I felt like all my senses are engaged

是的，完全正确。

Yes, all the absolutely.

这是一种非常美妙的体验，每当新场景展开时，你都会完全被吸引住，而且这

Which is such a beautiful experience to have where just every time a new scene opens you're just totally captivated and it's

谢谢。

Well thanks.

要长时间保持这种状态非常困难，尤其是当我自认为注意力还不错时，但即便如此，我通常三十分钟内就会分心。而你不仅在故事层面，还在感官层面牢牢抓住了观众的注意力，而且

It's so hard to do that for that long, especially with, I consider myself to have good presence and attention, but even then I can turn off something in thirty minutes when you, you know, and so to have your engagement not just on a story level but on a sensory level and

我觉得你说得很有道理，听着你说，我在想：我的创作目标究竟是什么？

I a whole think you're onto something there in describing, as you're saying it, I'm thinking, well what are my goals creatively?

我想讲一个精彩的故事，塑造我关心的鲜活角色，关注他们之间的互动、关系如何发展，以及他们如何解决自身的冲突，以一种打动我的方式。

I wanna tell a great story with good characters that I care about and I care about how they interact with each other and how their relationships evolve and and how they resolve their own conflicts, you know, in a way that moves me, you know.

因为如果我不能被故事打动，我又怎么能期待观众在情感上被触动呢？

Because if I can't move myself in a story, how do I expect to move an audience emotionally, right?

但在这之上还有一层感官层面，比如色彩、构图，所有那些艺术性的元素，你知道的。

But then the layer on top of that is the sensory layer, which is color, composition, all of those artistic things, you know.

因为我最初也是从艺术家做起的，虽然不是字面意义上的，但我能画画、能绘画。

Because I also started as an artist, you know, figuratively, but I could draw, I could paint.

我懂得构图的规则。

I knew the rules of composition.

我了解所有那些东西，比如艺术史、文艺复兴时期的光影、构图，诸如此类的一切。

I knew all You know, learned all the art history, renaissance lighting, composition, all that sort of thing.

所以这其中有一种我所喜欢的美学层面。

So there's a aesthetic level to it that I like.

还有一种世界构建的层面，比如每一种植物，你知道的，要么看起来真实，要么有其特定用途。

There's the world building level where every plant, you know, either looks real and or has a purpose.

你知道吗？

You know?

我们花了非常多的时间。

And we spend an awful lot of time.

幸运的是，我们的预算充足，时间充裕，可以让这些想法充分酝酿和成熟。

Fortunately, you know, we're blessed with good budgets and good good time to sort of let these ideas marinate and and gestate.

对吧？

Right?

我有一群出色的设计师。

And I've got great designers.

这些想法并不是全部源自我的脑海。

It doesn't all flow from my consciousness.

它们最初出来的时候是非常模糊的。

It comes out very out of focus, if you will.

而这是一个与他人合作，逐步将其细化为具体细节的过程。

And it's an act of working with other people to bring it more and more into finite detail.

对吧？

Right?

我所做的，我称之为我的职责，就是为其他创意人员提出宏大的挑战。

I've got the I call I call it my role is to create the grand provocation for the other creative people.

这个说法是我妻子苏西告诉我的，她是一名教育工作者。

And I got that term from my wife Susie who's an educator.

她说，学校提供挑战，孩子们则提供探索、好奇心和热情来

And she says that the school provides the provocation, the kids provide the investigation and the curiosity and the passion to

这太棒了。

That's brilliant.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这非常好。

And I think it's very it's very good.

这是她学校的基石。

It's the basis of her school.

她做这些事情比我强多了。

She can do all that stuff better than I can.

我只是这一部分的旁观者。

I'm just a bystander to that part of it.

但我想想我做的，我会进来对大家说：伙计们，我们要建一个最酷的编织热带水上村落。

But I think about what I do, I come in and I say, guys, we're gonna do the coolest woven tropical village, overwater village.

那到底是什么？

Now, what is that?

你可能会以为他们一两周就能造出来。

And you'd think that they could create that in a week or two weeks.

不。

No.

这花了一年时间。

It took a year.

因为这一部分的挑衅在于——所有事情都必须有明确的意图。

And because because part of the provocation was and it all has to be intention.

没有任何东西是用我们通常那种刚性的切割木材建造的，比如我们造受压的立柱那样。

Nothing is built with rigid cut lumber the way we would do it, where we create posts that in compression, right?

一切都是有意识的。

Everything's intention.

就像一张蜘蛛网。

It's like a spider web.

所有这些都编织在像红树林根系这样的大型结构之间。

It's all woven between these big structures like the mangrove roots.

因此，他们实际上用丝袜来塑造，以获得正确的弹性，使整个结构处于张力状态。

And so they were actually sculpting with pantyhose to get the right degree of elasticity to put it all in tension.

他们用丝袜塑造了这个村庄。

They sculpted the village with pantyhose.

这确实是真实的。

Is absolutely true.

然后他们编织了这些小结构，这些结构后来变成了房屋、步道等等。

And then they they wove these little structures that later became the homes and the walkways and all that.

然后他们在此基础上进一步发展。

And then they developed it from there.

然后我们最终开始建造这些编织结构的全尺寸模型，不是全尺寸，而是大约四分之一尺寸。

And then eventually we started building full scale, not full scale, but say quarter scale models of these woven structures.

所以当你走过时，你其实没有机会完全体验。

And so when you walk through it, you don't really get a chance.

我总是想提供比你能完全感知的更多的东西。

I always wanna give a little more than you can fully perceive.

因为这不就是日常生活的样子吗？

Because isn't that what daily life is like?

总有一些东西在你身边流逝，而你无法完全感知，你知道的。

There's always more going by than you can fully perceive, you know.

于是大脑变得具有选择性，好吧，此刻对我而言什么是叙事上重要的？

And so the brain becomes selective, okay, what's narratively important to me in the moment?

不，说到角色和故事的情感本质，我妻子总是说，我觉得詹姆斯·卡梅隆和他的团队去过其他星球。

No, and talking about the emotional nature of the characters and the story, my wife always says, I think James Cameron and his team have been to other planets.

她总是这么说。

That's what she always says.

每当她看你的电影时，她都会说，他在其他生命中去过其他星球。

Whenever she watches one of your movies, she's like, he's been to other planets in other lifetimes.

她总是这么说。

Like that's what she'll say.

她会说，你怎么可能做到这一点，你知道的，你能感受到，因为你感受到了角色之间关系的深度。

She'll be like, how is it that, you know, you could, and you feel that because you feel the depth of the relationship the characters have for each other.

你能感受到，你完全相信这是真实的，它一定存在于某个地方。

You feel that, you fully believe this is real, it must exist somewhere.

是的，没错。

Yeah, right.

但你怎么会对与你外貌不同、感受不同、经历不同的人产生如此深刻的情感呢？

Because how can you feel so deeply for people who look different to you and feel different to you and have different experience?

我们感受到

We feel

这正是目标，对吧？

That's a goal, right?

所以目标是，好吧，这些人外表不同，生理上不同，生活在不同的地方。

So the goal is, alright, these people look different, they're physiologically different, they live in a different place.

但这难道不给我们许可，让我们超越自己那些微不足道的种族、文化、宗教和政治差异吗？

But doesn't that give us permission to step outside ourselves with our petty little differences between race and culture and religion and politics and all that stuff.

超越自我，去观察人类行为的普遍性以及我们所关心的事物。

Step well outside ourselves and see kind of universals of human behavior and the things we care about.

比如父母对孩子那种责任感和爱。

Whether that's a sense of duty and love that a parent has for their child.

我想，这就是这些电影能够广为传播的原因。

And that's why these films travel, I think.

为什么它们在中国、印度、欧洲、非洲，无论走到哪里都能引起共鸣。

Why they resonate in China and India and Europe and Africa, wherever they go.

因为我试图探讨的是普世的主题。

Because I'm trying to deal with universal stuff.

但我并不是在凭空捏造。

But I'm not trying to make stuff up.

对吧？

Right?

所以对于续集，《水之道》、《火与灰》以及更远的未来，如果我们能拍更多的话，我不知道我们会不会拍。

So with the sequels, Way of Water and Fire and Ash and beyond that, if we get to make some more, I don't know if we will or not.

我们必须赚钱，你知道的，毕竟这也是一门生意。

We have to make some money, you know, I mean it's a business also.

但如果我们真的能拍更多，这些故事都是关于一个家庭的。

But if we do get to make some more, the stories are about a family.

所以，我不仅不能，而且如果没有经历过大家庭、青春期的各种问题、父子矛盾、不被理解这些事，我可能根本就不会去尝试写这些故事。

And so I couldn't Not only couldn't, but probably wouldn't have even tried to write them if I hadn't been in a large family and gone through all that teen acts and that issue, the father issues and not being seen and all those things.

然后，作为有青少年子女的父亲，我和苏西有五个孩子。

And then having been a father of teens, we've got, Susie and I have five kids.

所以，艺术家们只是在处理自己的经历，将生活体验投射出来，但把这些放到另一个世界、置于另一种情境中，就能让每个人都能分享或从中看到自己的影子，无论是以一种向往的方式——哇，我希望我也有这样一个家庭。

And so, I mean, artists are just working out their stuff, you know, their lived experience and project and and But taking that to another world and putting it in another context allows everybody to share in it and or recognize themselves in it either in an aspirational way like, wow, I wish I was part of a family like that.

我的家庭就没那么好了。

My family not so great.

或者我兄弟姐妹不多，或者我好奇那会是什么样子。

Or maybe I don't have a lot of siblings or maybe I wonder what that would be like.

或者我恰恰就生活在这种家庭里。

Or maybe it's like, I'm in exactly that kind of family.

有时候我真希望不是这样。

And I wish I wasn't sometimes.

我一直在对妻子重复这句话，我这么说是为了回应你刚才说的话。

I've been repeating to my wife, I'm saying this in reaction to it, in response to what you just said.

这一周我一直在对妻子说，我们还没孩子，但计划有一天要孩子。

Now I've been saying to my wife all week, we need to have, we don't have kids yet but we plan on having them one day.

我说，当我们有了孩子，我们需要为家庭制定一些座右铭和积极的自我肯定。

And I said, when we have kids, we need to have mantras and affirmations as a family.

所以我不断对我们说：‘萨利从不放弃。’

So I keep saying to us, Sully's never quit.

我只是不断对他说这句话，因为我太喜欢这句话了，它一直留在我心里。我想起那个孩子身处巨大危险和痛苦时，却还记得父亲告诉他‘萨利从不放弃’的那一刻，那份勇气。

Like I'm like, I just keep saying that to him because I'm like, I love that statement, it stuck with me and I was like to see the little child's like courage in that moment where they're in so much danger and so much pain, but they remember that their dad told them that Sully's never quit.

然后当

And then when

当她后来这么说时，她仅凭一句话就拯救了世界，她说：来吧，我们能做到的。

she says it, when she says it later, she basically saves the world with one thing where she says, you know, come on, we can do this.

Sully从不放弃。

Sully's never quit.

然后你会说：加油，杜克。

And you're like, go Duke.

是的，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

那种感觉就是，看到年轻人身上的勇气，以及这些简单而普世的信念如何在孩子心中深深扎根。

And that's that feeling of I'm like to see that courage in a young person and how these simple universal messages are things they hold on to in a child's mind.

还有Picon的故事线，对我来说，从第二部到第三部，因为当我看完第二部时，我第一次真正地爱上了海洋生活。

And then even the storyline with Picon, like for me that, oh my, I mean, from the second to the third, because when I watched the second movie, for me that fully just made me fall in sea life in a way that I hadn't before.

对。

Right.

我心想，哇，你这样传递关于海洋生物的信息真是太天才了，毕竟我们现在对这些生物的对待方式已经大不如前。

And got a, I was like, wow, this is genius in how you're sharing a message around, you know, water wildlife that we just don't treat well anymore.

我们不会保护我们不爱也不关心的东西。

We won't protect what we don't love and care about.

对吧？

Right?

所以我正在参与一个更大项目的一小部分，这个项目由海洋生物学家大卫·格鲁伯主导，他正与人工智能和机器学习领域的专家合作。

And so this I'm I'm working on a very small part of a much bigger project that's being run by a marine biologist named David Gruber and he's working with people who are in AI and machine learning kind of more side of AI.

但他们也在使用一些大型语言模型技术来解码鲸鱼的叫声。

But they're using some large language model technology as well to decode whale whale vocalizations.

他们拥有数千小时的抹香鲸叫声录音，以及这些鲸鱼在社交活动中的相关影像，正在破解它们的咔嗒声——也就是所谓的编码和咔嗒序列。

So they've got thousands of hours of sperm whale vocalizations and they've got some context footage of what socially they're doing and they're decoding their their clicks which are called coders and their click sequences.

他们发现这些鲸鱼拥有动词、句法和复杂的语言结构，其复杂程度至少不亚于人类语言，这简直令人惊叹。

And they're finding that they have verbs, they have syntax, they have complex language, at least as complex as human language, which is kind of amazing.

哇。

Wow.

但如果你真的能听到，听起来就像是一整段抹香鲸的对话。

But it all sounds like if you could actually hear it, it sounds like That's like a whole paragraph in Sperm Whale.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

这花了许多年和各种AI工具。

And it's taken years and years and AI tools.

所以，没错，自然远比我们理解的要复杂得多。

So, yeah, nature is far more complex than we understand.

意识显然为一些高等哺乳动物甚至某些鸟类所共有，它们拥有真正的意识。

Consciousness is clearly shared by some of the higher mammals, even some birds that have true consciousness.

它们能在镜子里认出自己，这是存在更高形式意识的关键标志之一。

They recognize themselves in a mirror and that's one of the key signs that there is a higher form of consciousness.

比如狗并不能在镜子里认出自己是个独立个体。

Like a dog doesn't recognize itself as an individual in a mirror.

我们认为狗是有意识的，当然它们确实有。

And we think of dogs as conscious and of course they are.

它们富有情感，富有同理心，在情感上非常像我们。

And they're emotive and they're empathetic and they're very much like us emotionally.

但它们的意识还不够高，无法在镜子里认出自己的细胞。

But they don't have a consciousness high enough to recognize their individual cells in a mirror.

但大象可以，黑猩猩可以，海豚也可以。

But an elephant can, a chimpanzee can, and a dolphin can.

哇。

Wow.

我不知道他们是否做过这项实验。

And I don't know if they've done that.

我认为已经证明了白鲸也可以，但我认为他们还没对大型鲸鱼做过这项实验。

I think they've proven that a beluga whale can as well, but I don't think they've done it with the great whales.

这有点困难，因为你没法把它们关在水池里像研究某些较小的齿鲸那样进行研究，比如海豚和白鲸。

It's just a little difficult to do because you can't put them in a tank and study them like some of the smaller toothed whales like dolphins and belugas.

但无论如何，新西兰有一种鹦鹉物种，聪明到能够认出自己是个体。

But anyway, there's even a parrot species in New Zealand that is intelligent enough to recognize itself as an individual.

大多数鸟类做不到。

Most birds can't.

所以你知道，除了我们之外，还有这些零星出现的意识迹象，而未来十年左右，机器意识也将开始涌现。

So you know, you've got these glimmers of emergent consciousness besides us, And now we're gonna have machine consciousness emerging in the next decade or whatever it's gonna be.

这也将给我们带来一系列全新的挑战。

And that's gonna be a whole new set of challenges for us as well.

我们甚至还没有理解自身的意识。

We don't even understand consciousness yet in ourselves.

现在，我们不得不开始与自己创造的这种外星意识建立联系。

Now we're gonna have to start relating to this alien consciousness that we create.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

最近我参加了一个关于人工智能和意识的会议，有人问我，我是否相信人工智能会有灵魂。

And it's almost like I was was speaking at a conference about AI and consciousness recently and someone asked me if I ever believed AI would ever have a soul.

我的回答是，我没有资格断定人工智能是否会有灵魂，但我真的希望开发人工智能的人们拥有灵魂，因为这里面太多是碰运气了。

And my response was, I'm not qualified to answer whether AI will ever have a soul, but I really hope the people building AI have a soul because it's so much of Bingo.

或者有良知。

Or a conscience.

是的。

Yeah.

更多的良知。

More conscience.

我就是这个意思。

That's what I meant.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你相信某种超越生物框架的、持久存在的生命力、精神或灵魂，我认为你可能会有——不过我本人并不这么认为，我先说明这一点。

I think you're gonna have a If you believe in some kind of animus or spirit or soul or whatever it is that's persistent beyond the biological framework, I personally don't, just saying that upfront.

但我也不会完全否定那些尚未被证实的事情。

But if you But I also I won't bet completely against something that just hasn't simply been proven yet.

但我只相信那些经过实证的东西，对其他一切则保持一种开放或模糊的态度。

But I also only I believe in believing in things that have been empirically demonstrated and being kind of agnostic or fluid about everything else.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你相信那种东西，那么机器就不可能拥有它。

But if you do believe in that, then a machine couldn't possibly have that.

难道不是吗？

Now could it?

因为我们根本没创造出那种东西，如果我们以为能制造出拥有它的机器，那我们就错了。

Because we didn't create that in the first place and if we think we can create a machine that can have it, then we can't.

于是你就陷入了那种无灵魂的弗兰肯斯坦式神话之中。

So now you get the sort of the soulless Frankenstein kind of mythology around that.

另一方面，如果你认为意识是一种几乎无限复杂的运作场域，它虽然是真实世界中的物质基础，但可以被理解，那么理论上，机器智能也可以像我们一样富有灵魂、富有同理心和情感。

On the other hand, if you believe that consciousness is this kind of field of operations that is almost infinitely complex but can be understood as a real world thing based in matter, then theoretically a machine intelligence could be as soulful, as empathetic, as emotional as us.

尽管它可能会非常非常不同。

Although it might be very very very different.

然后你就进入了意识的量子物理领域，那里有观察者效应之类的现象，似乎在量子层面上意识与之存在某种联系，那时一切就都难说了。

And then you get into the quantum physics of consciousness where you've got observer effect and things like that where there seems to be some link at a quantum level with consciousness and then all bets are off.

你知道的。

You know?

我曾与一位特别的实践者有过一些奇怪的经历，他相信量子意识，能对我做一些我无法解释的事情。

And I've had some strange experiences with one one practitioner in particular that believed in quantum consciousness and could do things I can't explain to me, to my mind.

你什么意思？

What do you mean?

我其实真的可以通过坐在你现在的位置上，直接在我脑海中创造出一种意识状态。

And I'm Well, could actually actually create a state of consciousness in my mind by sitting across from me just like you are right now.

我并不容易被催眠，从来没人能催眠我。

And I am not I'm not hypnotizable, nobody's ever been able to hypnotize me.

我对任何类型的暗示都相当抗拒。

I'm pretty resistant to any kind of suggestibility.

但这个特定的人能够做到一些事情

But this particular individual was able to do something

比如，你们在进行什么实验，以至于会跟别人面对面坐着？

like What were you experimenting with that you even sat across someone like that?

我的妻子苏西曾见过这个人，并与他合作过，很多年前就经常和他一起工作坊，她说你真的需要见见这个人。

My wife Susie had met this guy and worked with him, workshopped with him a lot, many many years earlier and said you really need to meet this guy.

他叫卡尔·沃尔夫。

His name was Carl Wolf.

我非常怀疑。

And I was very skeptical.

正如我所说，我是个经验主义者。

Like I said, I'm an empiricist.

你知道的，我说好吧，我虽然怀疑，但为了你，宝贝，我会试试。

You gotta, you know And I said, alright, I'm skeptical but I'll do it for you, baby.

然后发生了一些事情，我无法解释。

And something happened and I can't explain it.

哇。

Wow.

发生了一些事情。

Something happened.

那么，那是什么？

Now, what was it?

我不知道。

I don't know.

卡尔有一些假设。

Carl had hypotheses.

我不知道他的假设是否准确。

I don't know if his own hypotheses were accurate.

我很想问他，但他不幸在一场车祸中去世了。

I'd love to ask him but unfortunately, he died tragically in a car accident.

因为我当时就想，我能花几百万美元研究你的大脑吗？

And because I wanted to like, can I just spend millions of dollars studying your mind please?

这太迷人了。

That's fascinating.

我的意思是，你所创造的这些世界真的很美，而当我研究你的故事、了解你经历过的无数次失败和想要放弃的时刻时，我又想到了我们的听众。

I mean, what's beautiful about all these worlds you create and when I was researching your story and learning about just how many failures and moments you've had to quit and give up, and again I think about our listeners and I think about them

从不放弃。

never quits.

萨莉从未放弃，就是这样。

Sallie's never quit, there you go.

还有你刚才提到的关于你与父亲的经历，以及你自己成为父亲后的情形。

And even what you just mentioned right now about your own experience with your father and then becoming a father and what that looks like.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你所创造的世界，是那些你曾经拥有的，还是你未曾拥有的呢？

Was are the worlds you create worlds that you didn't have or did have for you?

我觉得两者都有。

I think both.

两者都是。

Both.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我在《阿凡达》电影中努力创造一种从狂喜到恐怖、从心碎到绝望再到喜悦的丰富情感体验，所有这些情感。

Thing I mean, the thing that I've tried to do in the Avatar films is create a dynamic range of experience from ecstatic to terrifying to heart wrenching, from despair to joy, all of those all of those things.

我认为电影在营造某种状态方面相当出色，比如一种恐惧的状态。

I think movies are pretty good at creating a state, maybe a state of dread or something like that.

但我认为电影并不擅长带你经历那种过山车般的起伏，而那才是我们真实生活的本质。

But I don't think they're good at taking you on that roller coaster ride that more is the way our our real existence is.

所以我希望展现令人惊叹的美丽时刻。

So I wanted to have amazing moments of beauty.

我认为如今的电影中，美常常被忽视了。

I think beauty gets forgotten in movies these days.

你知道，现在一切都围绕着威胁、冲突这些东西。

Know, everything is about threat and conflict and all that.

但我还希望带你经历一段情感旅程，让你通过失去或其他方式抵达那些令人恐惧或心碎的境地。

But I also wanted to take you on an emotional journey where you get to places that are either terrifying or heart wrenching through loss or whatever.

而这完全取决于表演。

And that's all dependent on performance.

这完全取决于演员们。

That's all dependent on the actors.

演员是我们通往这一切的路径，是我们的情感媒介。

The actors are our path through this, our conduit.

通过他们的眼睛去感受一切，你知道的。

See it all through their eyes, you know.

所以对我来说，真正的创作过程，每个人都对世界观构建着迷，因为那是他们能看到的。

So for me, the real act of creation, everybody is quite enamored of the world building because that's what they see.

他们看到的是最终成果。

They see the end result.

但对我来说，关键在于将这些角色写在纸上，并通过我的演员们将其呈现出来。

But for me, it's about getting those characters down on the page, bringing it in with my actors.

而这两部续集的美妙之处在于，我是在为我熟悉的演员们写作。

And and the beauty of the of the two sequels is that I was writing for for actors I knew.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我能听到他们会如何说出这些台词。

And I could hear the way they'd say it.

直到我知道斯蒂芬·兰（饰演乔治）会那样说，或者萨姆会那样说，或者佐伊会那样说，我才觉得对白是合适的。

And I didn't feel the dialogue was right until I knew that slang, Stephen Lang, who plays George, would say it that way, you know, or Sam would say it that way or or Zoe would say it that way.

当然，我还加入了一个新元素，那就是乌娜·查普林，她饰演的罗恩是一个相当令人恐惧的角色。

And then of course, I threw a new element in which is Una Chaplin who, you know, who plays Ron who is, you know, pretty terrifying character

当然。

For sure.

有时是这样。

At times.

我显然是凭空塑造了她这个角色。

And I was making her up out of whole cloth obviously.

我不知道谁会出演她这个角色。

I didn't know who the actor was that was gonna play her.

但我觉得你提到的这种视觉上的投入，其实也是发自内心的。

But that's the part where I think that engagement that you were talking visual, it's also heartfelt.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

这必须是这样的。

It would have to be.

每次我们走进电影院时，都会把自己的人生体验带入其中。

And we bring our own human experience to it every time we walk into a movie theater.

我也认为，投入感的一个关键部分在于影院观影体验。

And I also think a critical part of the engagement is the theatrical experience.

所以，在DVD和蓝光碟兴起的时候，人们对此做了很多讨论。

So a lot was made, you know, during the rise of like DVD and Blu ray and all that.

人们大肆宣扬的一个事实是，哦，你的屏幕没有那么大。

A lot was made about the fact that, oh, well, you don't have a screen that big.

你的音响也没那么好。

Your sound isn't that good.

电影院的体验更好。

The theater is a better experience.

但我们现在的情况是，你家的电视、音响条等设备，可能已经和电影院里看到的一样好了。

But we're at the point now where you're probably your home TV set and your home soundbar and everything is as good as what you're gonna see in a movie theater.

所以这一点就不再成立了。

So that goes away.

那还剩下什么？

So what's left?

在我们日常生活中，我们非常碎片化、分散、分心、多任务处理，一直在刷屏、打字、保持连接，同时进行多通道操作。

What's left is in our day to day life, we're very fragmented and scattered and distracted and multitasking and we're scrolling and you know, and we're typing and we're connected and you know, multichanneling all simultaneously.

我们很少能静下心来，专注地冥想。

Very rarely do we just sit in a meditative state and just focus.

你知道，练习正念和瑜伽之类的人知道如何做到这一点，他们这样做是为了清空思绪。

You know, people who practice mindfulness and yoga and things like that, they know how to do that and they do it to clear their mind.

但我们有多少次会专注于一种被动的体验呢？

But what how often do we do it where we focus on a received experience?

有些人会坐下来，花好几个小时读小说。

You know, some people will sit and read a novel for hours and hours.

我认为，不幸的是，这样的人正在逐渐消失。

I think they're a dying breed, unfortunately.

但电影院是我们最后几个专注于沉浸式娱乐的场所之一，在我们去那里之前，在离开家之前，我们和自己达成了一项约定：在两三个小时里，我们将完全不受干扰。

But the movie theater is one of the last bastions of of a focused entertainment where we make a deal with ourselves before we go there, before we leave our homes, we make a deal with ourselves that for two or three hours we're gonna be undistracted.

突然间，整个世界都消失了，你沉浸在那段旅程中，此时此刻，其他一切都变得无关紧要。

And then all of a sudden it's like the world goes away and you're on that journey and nothing else matters for that brief period of time.

我认为，这正是影院体验真正的魔力所在。

And I think that's the real magic of the theatrical experience.

归根结底，这仅仅关乎一件简单的事。

And it boils down to one simple thing.

你没有遥控器。

You don't have a remote.

就是这么简单。

It's that simple.

嗯。

Yeah.

你不能暂停。

You can't pause it.

嗯。

Yeah.

你不能去点披萨。

You can't go order a pizza.

你不能暂停去上厕所。

You can't pause it go to the bathroom.

你不能和家里其他人在一个房间里，他们正在说话，你暂停电影去听那句无聊的评论。

You can't be in a room with other family members who are talking and you pause it so you can hear the lame comment.

当然。

Absolutely.

我在开玩笑。

I'm kidding.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

孩子们不会说无聊的评论，但他们会在看电影时说话，我会暂停一下。

The kids don't make lame comments, but they do comment during the movie and I'll pause it.

我心想，对啊。

I'm like, yes.

你刚说什么？

You were saying?

这太好笑了。

That's so funny.

没有人受伤。

No one is harmed.

没有死亡。

No death.

没有创伤。

No trauma.

只是在培养皿中生长的少数细胞。

Just a few cells grown in a dish.

这是来自《内在宇宙》播客的大卫·伊格尔曼。

This is David Eagleman from the inner cosmos podcast.

本周，我们将探讨一个脑科学与未来交汇的难题。

And this week, we're tackling a tough question where brain science meets the future.

实验室培育的肉类将迫使我们直面伦理与想象力的边界。

Lab grown meat is going to force us to confront the boundaries of our ethics and our imagination.

它促使我们质疑，为什么我们恰恰在这些地方划下界限，以及这些界限是用墨水还是铅笔画下的。

It invites us to question why we draw lines exactly where we do and whether those lines are drawn in ink or in pencil.

这与神圣性、大脑可塑性、社会归属感、心理范畴之间混乱的边界、肉体版权以及人格的未来有何关联？

And what does this have to do with sanctity, brain plasticity, social belonging, messed up boundaries between mental categories, flesh copyrights, and the future of personhood.

我们将为自己设立一张怎样的餐桌？

What is the table we're going to set for ourselves?

这个问题揭示了大脑科学和我们对道德的计算方式之间的哪些联系？

What does this question uncover about brain science and our calculations of morality?

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听《Inner Cosmos》。

Listen to Inner Cosmos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

一位拥有秘密的战地外科医生，一个建立在权力与特权之上的世界，以及今年最出人意料的创意组合。

A combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege, and the most unexpected creative duo of the year.

作为一名演员多年，我总是走进别人的故事里。

As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people's stories.

于是我心想，为什么我不自己试试看，写点属于自己的东西呢？

And I thought, well, why don't I give it a shot, you know, and try to write it myself?

本周，由瑞茜·书单精选的节目在纽约苹果SoHo门店现场直播，嘉宾是《早已消失》的幕后 powerhouse 搭档——瑞茜·威瑟斯彭和哈兰·科本。

This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Apple Soho in New York City with Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben, the powerhouse team behind Gone Before Goodbye.

这本书现已登上《纽约时报》畅销书榜。

Now a New York Times bestseller.

我觉得我们俩一开始就意识到这事一定会发生。

I I think we both knew right away that this was gonna happen.

这是一场关于恐惧、抱负，以及两位叙事大师碰撞时会发生什么的对话。

It's a conversation about fear, ambition, and what happens when two master storytellers collide.

我从未见过女性出现在类似詹姆斯·邦德的世界里。

I'd never seen a woman in kind of a James Bond world.

来感受惊悚氛围，留下体验惊喜，看看为什么读者根本放不下这本书。

Come for the chills and stay for the surprises and find out why readers can't put it down.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您常用的播客平台收听《瑞茜书单精选》。

Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我是伊娃·朗格莉亚。

I'm Eva Longoria.

我是玛泰·戈梅斯约翰。

And I'm Maite Gomesjohn.

在我们的播客《饥饿的历史》中，我们融合了两个最爱的主题：美食与历史。

And on our podcast, Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.

古雅典人会把名字刻在牡蛎壳上，用这些壳来投票将政客放逐。

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells, and they called these to vote politicians into exile.

所以我们的单词 'ostracized'（放逐）与 'oyster'（牡蛎）有关。

So our word ostracized is related to the word oyster.

不可能吧。

No way.

让牡蛎投票回归吧。

Bring back the oyster con.

因为我们的节目有一种很轻松的氛围，朋友们经常来做客。

And because we've got a very kind of vibe on our show, friends always stop by.

几乎每一个进入这片大陆的途径都经过墨西哥湾。

Pretty much every entry into this side of the planet was through El Golfo de Mexico.

不是美国人。

Not the Americans.

不是美国人。

Not the Americans.

就像那样。

Like that.

墨西哥湾。

El Golfo de Mexico.

它

It

墨西哥在那个时代有多么进步，这让我惊叹不已。

blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this in this moment.

他们实行了土地改革。

They had land reform.

他们有了劳工权利。

They had labor rights.

他们还有教育权利。

They had education rights.

芥末籽对古埃及人来说如此珍贵，以至于他们将其放入墓穴中，以备来世使用。

Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.

收听《饥饿的历史》，它属于My Fultura播客网络，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen to Hungry for History as part of the My Fultura Podcast Network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

孩子们有没有看过电影后问你：爸爸，你是不是把我当成角色了？

Do they do the kids ever look at the movies and go, dad, you just made a character out of me?

就是说，这种情况真的发生过吗？

Like, is there ever that?

我认为他们意识到，十年前有一个时刻，我当时对他们的认知影响了某个角色的塑造。

I think they see that there was a moment in time ten years ago where who I believed they were influenced the creation of a character.

但我觉得对他们来说，这都是一场大笑。

But they but I think for them, it's all a big laugh.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们会说两件事。

Because they say two things.

一是，那是十年前的事了；二是，即使那时你也不真了解我。

One is, that was ten years ago and two, even then you didn't really know who I was.

这太棒了。

That's brilliant.

我想回到角色深度的话题，但我想谈谈失败，因为你以前讲过这个故事，但我想要问的是，在你拍《终结者》之前，你其实丢了一份工作。

I wanna come back to depth of character but I wanted to talk about failure because you've told this story before but the part I wanted to ask about was before you made Terminator, you actually lost a job.

是的。

Yeah.

我们就不提那部电影了，因为我听说你没提到它。

And we won't mention the film because I heard you didn't mention it.

但对于任何最终找到自己道路的人来说，你从卡车司机做起，开始拍电影，拍了这部小成本电影，然后却被解雇了。

But like for anyone who's finally found their way, you went from truck driver, starting to make films, made this small movie, you get fired off a job.

是的。

Yeah.

这几乎让人感觉，好吧，这条路走到了尽头。

That almost feels like, alright, well this is the end of the road.

你说你当时有这种感觉。

You you said you felt It that

有这种感觉。

felt that way.

在我第一次执导的项目中，拍摄了六七天后就被解雇了。

And it felt like there was going into my first directing gig that I did get fired off of after I think six or seven days of shooting.

但并不是因为能力不足，后来才发现。

And not for incompetence, it turns out.

原来从头到尾我都被设局了。

It turns out that I was being set up the whole time.

当我后来得知真相时，才对这件事有了新的理解。

And when I found that out later, it sort of put it in perspective.

但当时我相信了，内化了自己做得不够好的想法。

But I believed at the time, internalized that I was not doing it well.

你知道吗？

You know?

我当时想，天哪，我现在比一开始就没接这个工作还要糟糕。

And I thought, oh crap, now I'm worse off than if I hadn't taken the job in the first place.

我现在已经负十分了。

Now I'm at negative 10.

我本可以还保持在零分。

I could have just been at zero.

现在我得从坑里爬出来才能回到零分。

Now I have to dig out of a hole to get to zero.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

于是我知道，我必须做些非凡的、不一样的事情。

And so then I knew I had to do something extraordinary or something different.

我等不及有人找我来当导演。

I couldn't wait for a directing gig to come to me.

我必须为自己创造机会，于是我就写了《终结者》。

I had to create it for myself and that's when I wrote The Terminator.

我想，我必须写一个原创的故事，一个我有可能拍出来、预算不会太高、场景设定在普通城市街道等现实地点的作品，这样我们就能相对低成本地完成。

I thought I have to write something original, something that I could plausibly make that wouldn't have an enormous budget and it was scaled to conventional locations, present day city streets, that sort of thing, so that we could do it relatively cheaply.

但我又想，好吧，我必须在其中加入一些东西。

But I also thought, alright, but I've got to inject into it.

它不能只是一个简单的剧情片。

It can't just be a simple drama.

我必须加入我所擅长的东西。

I've got to inject into it something that I bring as expertise.

我的专长是设计和视觉特效。

So my expertise was in design and in visual effects.

于是我想，好吧，我必须在这里找到一个精心的平衡。

I thought, alright, so I've got to create a careful balance here.

视觉效果必须非常有限，但必须具有强大的冲击力，这样才不会像《星球大战》那样预算高昂，我知道我们负担不起，也没人会雇我。

The visual effects have to be very limited, but they have to be powerful so that it's not a ridiculous budget like a Star Wars movie that I knew we couldn't afford or nobody would hire me for.

于是我想到一个点子：将未来科技注入当下，也就是时间旅行。

So then I came up with the idea of a futuristic technology that gets injected into the present day, time travel.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我所构思的故事元素背后有着明确的逻辑，完全基于现实考量，只是为了争取一个工作机会。

So there was a logic to the story elements that I was playing with that was based entirely on being practical and trying to get a gig.

如果没有这些限制，我会想到这个故事吗？

So would I have come up with that story if I didn't have those constraints?

我不知道。

I don't know.

也许不会。

Maybe not.

你懂的？

You know?

但一切都顺利解决了。

But it all worked out.

所以我想到，好吧，我想要一个非凡的东西，需要动画和设计，就是这个终结者，但我会让它来自未来，而我不必展现未来，我只展现当下。

So I thought, alright, I want this extraordinary thing that requires you know, animation and design, this terminator, but I'll have it come from the future which I don't have to see and I'll just see present day.

你知道的，我们可以只使用现有的光线，比如街灯之类的，我们实际上就是这么做的。

You know, we could just use available light, street lighting and that sort of thing, which is kinda how we did it.

不过，你刚才提到的这一点非常有趣，即限制反而激发了卓越的创造力。

That that's such a fascinating point you just made though that constraints actually led to brilliant creativity.

没错。

Right.

事情并不是反过来的，我们常常陷入这样的陷阱：当我拥有资源时，我就能创作出杰作。

It wasn't the other way around and often we get lost in the trap of when I have resources

没错。

Right.

我会创作出一部杰作。

I'll make a masterpiece.

是的。

Yeah.

你创造了一部永恒的作品。

You made something that's timeless.

是的。

Yeah.

这真不错。

That's really good.

我的意思是，你知道，资源终究会来的，但这也会带来自己的弊端，因为现在你可以做任何事。

I mean, you know, the resources will come eventually and that brings its own curse because now you can do anything.

当你拥有无限的选择时，可能会陷入瘫痪。

And when you have infinite choice, you could get paralyzed.

对吧？

Right?

而《阿凡达》这部电影正是在限制选择中进行的，因为当你使用动作捕捉时，我能获得出色的表演。

And an Avatar movie is an exercise in limiting choice because when you work with performance capture, I get a great performance.

但之后我可以把摄像机放在任何我想放的地方，可以剪辑到任何我想剪辑的地方。

But then I can put the camera anywhere I want, I could cut it anywhere I want.

我不再受限于那天日落前我们所能拍摄到的素材。

I'm not constrained by just the footage that we were able to grab that day before the sunset.

这变成了一个无限选择的问题。

It becomes a kind of a problem of infinite choice.

我认为这让你成为一个更好的电影制作人。

I think it makes makes you a better filmmaker.

因为现在，为什么摄像机要在这里？

Because now, why is the camera going right here?

不是因为再往后退我的屁股就要撞到墙了，那是我能拍到的最广角的镜头。

Not because that's the farthest back I can move before my ass hits the wall and that's the widest shot I can do.

为什么在这里？

Why is it here?

而不是在那里，或者那边？

And not back there or not over there?

你知道吗？

You know?

因此，这迫使你在美学上变得非常严谨。

And so you you It forces you to become quite rigorous about your aesthetic.

你知道吗？

You know?

顺便说一句，这与获得出色的表演是两个不同的问题，而《阿凡达》电影的奇怪之处在于，我们将表演与摄影分离了。

As a separate problem from getting great performance by the way, and the weird thing about an Avatar movie, it's a little weird, is we separate performance from cinematography.

我们所有的摄影工作都是在后期完成的。

We do all the cinematography later.

我甚至不会去想它。

I don't even think about it.

我在和演员工作时，根本不会考虑镜头角度。

I don't think about the camera angles when I'm working with the actors.

我知道我之后一定能拍出来。

I know I'll be able to shoot it.

我不知道具体会怎么拍。

I don't know exactly how I'll shoot it.

但我只关心与演员之间那一刻的心灵、灵魂和真实感。

But I'm just I just care about the heart and soul and the authenticity of the moment with the actors.

现在我跟他们的工作结束了。

Now I'm done with them.

现在他们都去拍另一部电影了。

Now they're all working on another movie.

现在我就想，我是用广角镜头吗？

Now it's like, okay, am on a wide shot?

特写镜头吗？

Close shot?

我是用长焦镜头吗？

Am I on a long lens?

短焦镜头吗？

Short lens?