杰的必听节目：成年人交朋友太难了！（建立持久友谊的8个强大秘诀）特邀特雷弗·诺亚和梅尔·罗宾斯

我们不希望处于一种只付出而不成长的状态。

And we don't want to be in a position where we're only giving, we want to be able to grow.

所以，在任何特定时刻，我们的生活中似乎都有两组人。

So it's almost like we have two sets of groups in our life at any real given time.

你同意这一点吗？

Would you agree with that or?

嗯，会不会

Well, would

相信你的喜悦吧。

just say trust your joy.

我认为喜悦就像一个绝佳的导航仪。

I think joy is a great GPS.

因此，我绝不是在建议你只和那些让你充满能量、助你成为最好自我的人在一起。

And so, yeah, I'm not in any way suggesting be around people only who fuel you and who help you become you at your best.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是说，这关乎健康，关乎你的喜悦，关乎与那些与你合拍、理解你、拥有相似价值观、支持你并鼓励你的人在一起。

I'm simply saying it's about what's healthy, it's about your joy, it's about being around people who you vibe with, who understand you, who have similar values, who support you and who encourage you.

所以我认为，你的社交圈绝对是关键，是一种绝对重要的财富。

So I think your community is definitely a key, an absolutely key form of wealth.

你之前提到过这一点，我想再回来谈谈。

And you mentioned this earlier, want to come back

就是那个‘三个挚友’法则。

to it was this three great friends rule.

我很喜欢你谈到拥有三个挚友。

And I love that you talk about having three great friends.

我最近在某个地方听到过，记不清了，是在社交媒体上浏览时，有人提到你还需要‘凌晨三点的朋友’，也就是那种凌晨三点打电话他们也会接起电话的朋友。

I heard recently somewhere, I can't remember, browsing on social media and someone said you need 3AM friends as well, like friends you can call at 3AM and they'll pick up the phone.

你怎么知道呢？

How do you know?

一个长期挚友的品质是什么？

What is the quality of a great long term friend?

什么是真正的朋友？

What is a great friend?

我不确定

I'm not

我们是否还知道什么是真正的朋友。

sure we even know anymore.

真正的朋友是你可以做自己，而他们依然爱你的人。

A great friend is someone you can be yourself with and they still love you.

我在书里写过一句话：你在异国他乡，

A great friend is I had a line in the book, you You're in a foreign country and three a.

他们立刻订机票，飞来接你。

M, they hop on a plane and they come get you.

真正的朋友是能和你一起开怀大笑的人。

A great friend is someone who you can laugh with.

真正的朋友是在你经历最艰难时刻时，愿意听你倾诉数小时的人。

A great friend is someone who you're going through your most difficult times and they'll listen to you for hours.

一个真正的朋友是接受你、帮助你被看见的人。

A great friend is someone who accepts you, someone who helps you be seen.

一个真正的朋友是，和他们在一起时，你感到快乐而非耗竭的人。

A great friend is someone who, when you're with them, you feel joyful versus depleted.

所以我认为，在这个我们追求极致的世界里，这真的很重要。

So I think it's really important in this world where we are maximalists.

我们想对每个人都面面俱到。

We want to be all things to all people.

我们想拥有那么多不同的朋友。

We want to have so many different friends.

专注于三个真正的朋友。

Focus on three great friends.

我们想读一百本书。

We want to read 100 books.

精通三本书。

Master three books.

也许是艾萨克森写的关于乔布斯的自传，就像你提到的那样。

Maybe it's Isaacson's autobiography on Jobs, like you mentioned.

也许是哈利勒·纪伯伦的《先知》。

Maybe it's The Prophet by Khalil Gibran.

也许是谢尔·希尔弗斯坦的《爱心树》。

Maybe it's The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein.

也许是马可·奥勒留的《沉思录》，这是我最爱的书之一。

Maybe it's Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, one of my favorite books of all time.

但我认为，做一个极简主义者非常有力量。

But I think just being a minimalist is so powerful.

围绕几件事来构建你的生活，即使在工作上，我也提到过。

Build your life around a few things, even in work, I mentioned it.

与其产出一千份平庸的作品，不如把一件事做到极致。

Rather than pushing out a thousand pieces of mediocrity, Do one thing incredibly well.

甚至

Even

如果

if

即使需要五年、十年。

it takes five years, ten years.

《财富金钱营》这本书中有一章叫‘让你的项目成为X’。

There's a chapter called Make Your Project X in the Wealth Money Camp Buy.

例子是米兰大教堂。

And the example is the Duomo in Milan.

你知道他们花了多长时间吗？

You know how long they spent on it?

在这个我们希望一小时就能完成并获得回报的世界里，也许一周、一个月就能看到成果，而建造米兰大教堂却花了六百年。

In this world where we want to do something in an hour and they get the rewards, or maybe a week, maybe a month, it took six hundred years to create the Duomo.

这些都是一个未被言明的时代的价值。

These are values of an unspoken age.

六百年来不断调整、完善、优化，才造就了米兰大教堂。

Six hundred years of calibrating, refining, optimizing to create the DOMO.

所以这就是一个Project X的意义。

And so that's what a Project X is.

与其做很多事，不如专注做一件事。

Rather than doing lots of things, you do one thing.

也许那是一件艺术作品。

Maybe it's one work of art.

米开朗基罗花了四年时间绘制西斯廷教堂的天顶画，但他最终完成了任务。

Michelangelo took four years of working on the chapel of the Sistine Ceiling, but he got the job done.

极简主义非常、非常强大。

Minimalism is very, very powerful.

其中一个是

And one of

你刚才提到的一点，就是我们几乎试图取悦这么多人，以至于很难找到真正合适的朋友。

the things you said there, this idea of we're almost trying to be so many things to so many people that it's hard to find the right friends.

你提到的另一件事是：不要当老好人。

One of the things you talk about is do not be a doormat.

我发现这会让人陷入取悦他人的心态——我能根据你的期待调整自己，变成你想要的任何样子，扮演多种角色，从而获得认同感，但最终我们只是变成了一个垫脚石。

And I find that that becomes that people pleasing mentality, that ability that I can mold and I can be whatever you want me to be and I can be lots of things and we feel validated that way but in the end we're just becoming a doormat.

每个人都从垫脚石上走过，而垫脚石对所有人都一视同仁。

Everyone crosses over a doormat and a doormat welcomes everyone in the same way.

所以当我读到这一点时，我就想：我们如何才能既善良，又不成为垫脚石？

So when I read that I was like, how do we be kind but not be a doormat?

我们如何才能以服务为导向，却不沦为垫脚石？

How do we be service oriented but not be a doormat?

我们如何平衡好客之道，又不变成垫脚石？

How do we balance that art of being welcoming but not being a doormat?

你知道吗，很多年来，像你一样，杰，我一直在谈论善良的力量。

You know, for many years, like you, Jay, I've talked about the power of just being kind.

你知道，这听起来很简单，但保持善良，记得在我离开房间后，会有人来打扫房间。

You know, and it sounds so simple, but being kind, staying hotel, remembering there's someone going to clean my room after I leave the room.

所以把毛巾放进浴缸里。

So put the towels in the bathtub.

把床铺整理整齐。

Straighten out the bed.

把客房服务托盘收拾干净。

Leave the room service tray clean.

这些小小的善意举动，不仅是送给别人的礼物，也是送给自己的一份礼物。

Little acts of kindness not only are gifts you give to someone else, it's a gift you give to yourself.

你会更加尊重自己。

You respect yourself more.

所以有时人们会对我说：‘如果我善良，别人会利用我。’

So then people sometimes say to me, Well, if I'm kind, people will take advantage of me.

我会说：只有当你允许别人利用你时，他们才会利用你。

And I would say, People will only take advantage of you if you allow people to take advantage of you.

我们不要把善良和软弱混为一谈。

Let's not confuse kindness with weakness.

当然有时应该始终善良，但这并不意味着你要任人欺凌。

There is a time to always be kind but that doesn't mean you let people walk over you.

这让我想到我写过的另一个观点：在当今这个世界，很容易重复过同一年80次，还称之为生活。

And that makes me think of another idea that I write about, which is the importance of, you know, in this world right now, it's so easy to live the same year 80 times and call it a life.

其中有一章叫‘做一个完美时刻的创造者’，我在那里讲述的是尤金·凯利·奥凯利的故事，抱歉。

And there's one chapter called Be a Perfect Moment Creator, and the story I tell in there is of Eugene Kelly O'Kelly, excuse me.

尤金·奥凯利曾是会计巨头毕马威的前首席执行官。

And Eugene O'Kelly used to be the former CEO of KPMG, the accounting behemoth.

有一天，他走进医生办公室去拿常规体检结果，医生脸上的表情是你在拿体检结果时最不想看到的。

And one day he walked into his doctor's office to get the results of a routine medical and the doctor came out with an expression you never want to see on the face of your doctor when you go to get your results.

他被告知自己只剩下90天的生命。

And he was told he had ninety days left to live.

他患的是一个不可手术的脑瘤。

He had an interoperable brain tumor.

面对死亡，他第一次意识到，在他作为企业巨头的漫长岁月里，他从未带妻子吃过午饭。

So confronted with his mortality, he realized for the first time he had never, in all his years as a corporate titan, he'd never taken his wife to lunch.

他错过了女儿那么多场圣诞音乐会。

He had missed so many Christmas concerts of his daughter.

他从未花时间与朋友一起漫步中央公园、畅谈心事。

He had never spent time with his friends walking through Central Park and having conversations.

于是他决定重新规划自己最后的九十天。

And so he decided to reengineer his last ninety days.

他说，我想成为一个完美时刻的创造者。

And he said, I wanted to become a perfect moment creator.

他用这最后的九十天时间。

And he spent those last ninety days.

他实际上在医生诊断后大约九十天去世了。

He actually died roughly ninety days after, the report from his doctor.

但我认为这太有力量了。

But I think that's so powerful.

你知道，当你与家人、工作或自己相处时，每一天都要找到一种方式，创造一个完美的时刻。

You know, when you're with your family, when you're with your work, when you're with yourself, each and every day, find some way to create a perfect moment.

也许就是通过一句赞美，送给别人一份礼物。

Maybe it's giving a gift to someone through a compliment.

也许花点时间做一些让你感到快乐的事情。

Maybe it's taking some time to do something that fills you with joy.

但成为一个完美时刻的创造者，我认为这是一种金钱买不到的财富。

But being a perfect moment creator, I think, is a form of wealth money can't buy.

本集由eBay赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by eBay.

我以前从未拥有过一台复古相机。

I'd never owned a vintage camera before.

在这样一个所有事物都存在于手机中的世界里，它似乎显得有些多余。

There was something about it that felt almost unnecessary in a world where everything lives on our phones.

但我希望改变这一点，于是我开始寻找一款傻瓜相机。

But I wanted to change that, so I started the hunt for a point and shoot camera.

当我终于在eBay上找到完美的那一款时，我没有自己留着，而是把它放在桌上，随时可取，这时一些有趣的事情发生了。

When I finally found the perfect one on eBay, I didn't keep it to myself, I left it out on a table, always within reach, and that's when something interesting happened.

人们开始不打招呼就拿起它——家人、朋友，每个人都拍下那一刻对他们来说重要的画面。

People started picking it up without asking family, friends, everyone to take a photo of whatever felt important to them in that moment.

一个笑声、一顿饭、一个他们爱的人，或一些微小却不想忘记的瞬间。

A laugh, a meal, someone they loved, something small they didn't want to forget.

没有修图，没有重拍，也没有不断滑动回看是否够好。

There was no editing, no retakes, no scrolling back to see if it was good enough.

你拍下照片，就这样结束了。

You took the photo, and that was it.

那一刻立刻变得真实起来。

The moment became real right away.

我最欣赏的是，这并不是为了捕捉一切。

What I loved most was that it wasn't about capturing everything.

而是选择某样东西，决定它很重要，并让这个选择属于当时拿着相机的任何人。

It was about choosing something, deciding this matters, and letting that choice belong to whoever was holding the camera.

即使照片拍得模糊，那台复古相机也不属于某一个人。

Even if it came out blurry, the vintage camera didn't belong to one person.

它属于整个房间，属于那一刻，属于房间里所有的人。

It belonged to the room, to the moment, to the people in it.

随着时间推移，这些照片开始堆在冰箱上、藏在书架里，每一张都在提醒我们，意义并不总是被计划好的。

Over time, the photos started to pile up on the fridge, on shelves tucked into books, each one a reminder that meaning isn't always planned.

有时，它只是被察觉到了。

Sometimes it's noticed.

我们保留的东西，就能做到这一点。

The things we keep can do that.

它们能让我们放慢脚步，分享拥有感，并看到身边的人认为值得铭记的是什么。

They can invite us to slow down, to share ownership, and to see what the people around us find worth remembering.

这正是我欣赏eBay的地方。

That's what I appreciate about eBay.

它是一个你可以找到让人聚在一起的东西、并将你不再需要的物品传递出去，让它们成为他人记忆一部分的地方。

It's a place where you can find things that bring people together and pass along things you no longer need so they can become part of someone else's memories.

访问 ebay.com 挑选你最爱的发现。

Visit ebay.com to shop your favorite finds.

找到你热爱的，出售你不需要的。

Find what you love, sell what you don't.

人们热爱的事物：你有没有想过，什么才是一位真正的好朋友？

Things people love Have you ever thought about what makes a truly good friend?

不只是那个能和你一起吃午饭的人，而是那种真正懂你的人。

Not just someone you can grab lunch with, but the kind of friend who truly sees you.

那种你有时甚至都忘记的自己。

The version of yourself you might even forget sometimes.

特雷弗·诺亚多年来一直在充满不确定性的世界中经营人际关系，他对友谊的看法非常深刻。

Trevor Noah has spent years navigating relationships in a world full of unpredictability and his take on friendship is powerful.

他分享了最亲密的朋友如何成为他的锚点，帮助他在单口喜剧表演和巡演的孤独中重新与自己连接。

He shares how his closest friends act as his anchor, helping him reconnect with himself especially in the loneliness of stand up comedy and touring.

让我们来看一看。

Let's take a look.

首先，朋友是谁？

How a) who are the friends?

你们在聊些什么？

What are you talking to them about?

比如，你的稳定性体现在哪里？

Like what's your consistency?

我对此很感兴趣，因为

I'm fascinated by that because

那么，你的朋友是谁？

So who are the friends?

我的朋友主要来自南非。

Predominantly my friends are from South Africa.

我是在做不同事情时认识的朋友。

Friends I met doing different things.

都是些自然而然发生的新关系，而我特别容易被这种关系吸引。

All organic new things which I'm a sucker for.

我不太擅长交朋友，部分原因是我不容易信任别人。

I'm terrible at making friends, partially because I don't trust people easily.

我活在一个可以对很多人友善的世界里，但你知道，我要花很长时间才能接受这个人真正成为我生命中的一部分。

I exist in a world where I can be friendly with many people, but you know, it takes me a while to accept that this person is actually a part of my life.

对。

Right.

我认为，很长一段时间以来，甚至现在有时也是因为：第一，我会对某人抱有某种期待，而这种期待意味着他们可能会让我失望。

And I think for a long time it was because and still is sometimes because A, I have an idea of putting something on that person where I may need them means that they may disappoint me.

另一方面，如果他们需要我，那就意味着我可能会让他们失望。

And then on the other side of it, them needing me means I could be in the position to disappoint them.

你知道，当我们了解一个人时，我会发现我们逐渐明白他们能做什么、不能做什么。

You know, and so as we learn people, I find we learn what they can and cannot do.

我们会了解他们究竟是怎样的人，或者不是怎样的人。

We learn who they are or are not.

对我来说，这总是取决于具体情境的。

And it's always situational for me.

只有当我清楚你在大多数情况下会怎样表现时，我才会把你称为朋友。

That's when I'll call you like a friend, is that I know how you are in most situations.

是的，这是个很好的定义。

Yeah, it's good definition.

你知道，这对我来说就是朋友的定义。

You know, that for me is the definition of a friend.

所以，你知道，我们当然会宽松地使用这个词，比如你可以和你做朋友，我们总是一起吃午饭，但其实我只了解你的一面。

So, you know, I can be we use it loosely obviously, but you know, can be friends with you and we always meet for lunch, always meet for but then I only know you in one way.

我的朋友们，我开始能够几乎把他们储存在我脑海中的保险箱里。

My friends, I start to be able to almost store in a vault in my mind.

我可以肯定地说，如果我们是朋友，如果杰伊在这里，这件事会让他困扰，他会喜欢那个，他可能会说这样的话，这就是他为什么会这样做的原因。

I can say for a fact, if we're friends, if Jay was here, this would bother him, he would like that, he would probably say this and that's why he would act this way.

是的。

Yeah.

而这就是我如何看待我的朋友们。

And that's, you know, that's how I think of my friends.

对。

Yeah.

因此，他们在我感到归属感方面起到了至关重要的作用。

So they've been a major part of making me feel at home.

你知道吗，单口喜剧是一项非常孤独的职业，我记得几周前和一位喜剧演员聊天，谈到有一段时间很多单口喜剧演员自杀，你知道的。

Know, job, stand up comedy is a really lonely career, you know, I remember talking to a comedian, it was a few weeks ago, talking about how there was like a period where a lot of stand up comedians were committing suicide, you know.

你会听到这样令人心碎的故事：一位深受喜爱的喜剧演员，住在酒店房间里，然后自杀了。

And would be, you'd hear this devastating story of a comedian that everyone loved, they were in a hotel room and then they committed suicide.

我感到非常恐惧，因为我总觉得自己也可能遭遇这样的事。

And I was petrified because I always think it can happen to me.

你知道，我会想，如果这种事情发生在他们身上，为什么会发生？

You know, I go that if that happened to them, why did it happen?

如果我不理解，那到底是什么原因呢？

If I don't understand then what is it?

另一位喜剧演员，另一位喜剧演员，喜剧演员，再一位喜剧演员。

Another comedian, another comedian, comedian, another comedian.

我觉得单口喜剧是一项非常孤独的职业，因为我们经常独自旅行，没有乐队，没有伴舞，也不和别人同行。

I think being a stand up comedian is a really lonely job in that we're travelling often times alone, we don't have a band, we don't have backup dancers, we don't travel with the people.

你能想象你会去找伴舞吗？

Can you imagine you would go to backup dancers?

但每晚你都要上台，逗大家笑，和他们一起享受欢乐。

And yet every night you're going out there and you're making people laugh, you're having fun with them.

他们带着家人、朋友、亲人前来，而你却独自离开。

They come with their families, they come with their friends, they come with their loved ones, you leave alone.

这种能量的持续交换让我明白，我的朋友们成了这个枢纽，他们是我恢复能量的源泉，是我可以躺着什么都不说或什么都说的沙发。

And it's this constant exchange of energy and what I learned was my friends became that hub, my friends became my recharge, my friends became the couch I could lie on and say nothing or everything.

是的。

Yeah.

多亏了科技，我才能一直和他们保持联系。

And thanks partly to technology, I've been able to keep in touch with them.

我们之间不需要寒暄。

There's no catching up for us.

我们有一个WhatsApp群聊，现在已经有了十五年的历史。

It's literally a running, we've got a WhatsApp thread that is now, I'm going to say fifteen years old.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的可以回溯，有时候找十年前的内容。

Like literally I can go back and search something from maybe ten years ago sometimes.

我可以回到WhatsApp群聊里，回想一下当时发生了什么，然后搜索并找到它。

I can go back on the WhatsApp thread and go, what happened and I can search and I can find it.

我们保持这个群组、这些朋友和一切已经这么久了，虽然随着时间推移有所扩展，但这个核心一直支撑着我。

That's how long we've had the same group and the same friends and the same everything and obviously it's grown over time but that core has kept me.

我总是想，你最后有没有读《哈利·波特》？

I always think, did you end up reading Harry Potter?

我从来没读过，但我把所有电影都看过了。

I didn't ever read it, I've watched all the movies.

哦，你看了啊，明白了。

Oh you watched it, okay.

是的，我把所有电影都看了。

Yeah I watched all movies.

我其实是个大粉丝。

I'm a big fan actually.

好吧，我觉得你生命中的朋友就是你的魂器。

Okay, so I feel like your friends in life are your horcruxes.

哦，这很有趣，明白了。

Oh interesting, okay.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的，是的，是的，我认为作为人，我们把自己拆分成不同的部分。

Yeah yeah yeah I think as people what we do is we break ourselves into parts.

每当我们遇到别人，就会把自我的一部分交给他们。

And whenever we meet people, we give them a part of ourselves.

有些人我们给予的比其他人更多。

And some people we give more than we give others.

但我们每个人都会给予他们自我的不同部分。

But we give everyone a different part of ourselves.

你生命中没有人拥有和另一个人完全相同的那一部分。

No one in your life has the same part that another person has.

它们可能看起来相似，但其实并不相同。

They may seem similar but they're not.

你的父母掌握着你不同的部分。

Your mother and father hold different parts of you.

你的叔叔、堂表兄弟姐妹、兄弟姐妹、朋友，无论谁，都拥有你不同的部分。

Your uncles, your cousins, your brothers, sisters, your friends, whoever it is, they all hold a different parts of you.

就像伏地魔可以利用这一点复活一样。

And the same way Voldemort could use that to come back to life.

我觉得我们也可以用这种方式重生。

I feel like we can use that to come back to life.

你知道我的意思吗？

Do you know what mean?

是的，你看了部不同的电影。

Yeah, you watched a different movie.

我读过这本书。

I read the book.

是的，你读了《哈利·波特》

Yeah, you read the I

读了这本书，我的朋友。

read the book my friend.

就是这样。

That's what it is.

这就是你在电影里错过的部分。

That's what you missed in the movie.

我读了这本书。

I read the book.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我总是觉得，有时候我可能表现得最糟糕，有时候我会迷失自己。

And so I always think that is I Man, sometimes I can be at my worst, I can be sometimes I can be lost.

真的，杰，有时候我会想，我到底在做什么？

Really Jay, there'll be times when I'll be like, what am I doing?

或者我在哪里？我压力很大，很累，精疲力尽，感觉迷失了，但我可以给朋友打电话，说真的，他们会对我说：‘我认识的特雷弗，你知道的。’我很喜欢他们这么说。

Or where am I I'm stressed, I'm tired, I'm burnt out, I feel lost and I can call a friend and no joke, they can say to me, well, the Trevor I know, you know, and I love that they say that.

他们不会说‘这就是你’或者‘你不是这样的人’。

They don't say this is who you are or not.

他们会说：‘我认识的特雷弗，在这里找到了快乐。'

They go, the Trevor I know found his joy here.

是的。

Yeah.

嘿，我注意到你以这种方式做事时总是最开心的。

Hey, you know, I've noticed that you're always happiest when you do it this way.

对。

Yeah.

嘿，我注意到当你处于这种状态时，压力会更大。

Hey, I've noticed that you know you stress more when you're in this position.

嘿，我想：天啊，我以前都没意识到自己是这样的。

Hey, and I go, man I didn't know that about myself.

我没有那样要求自己，因为我始终通过自己的视角体验着完整的自我。

I didn't hold myself that way because I'm always experiencing all of me still through my lens.

但谢谢你，你让我解脱，你鼓励我，你支持我，你爱我。

But thank you, you freed me, you encouraged me, you held me, you loved me.

于是，我开始找到回归目标、激情和驱使我前行之物所需的东西。

And what then happens is I start to find what I need to get back to my purpose, to my passion, to whatever drives me.

这就是为什么我的朋友们在其中扮演了重要角色。

And that's why my friends are a big part of that.

这构成了我世界的核心。

That is the core of my world.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

有趣的是，我小时候妈妈也常对我说这些。

And it's funny, my mom even used to say that to me when I was growing up.

你知道吗，到了某个年纪，她对我说，我的朋友。

You know, at a certain age, she said to me, she'd say to me, my friend.

你知道吗，我当时会说，我不是你的朋友。

You know, I'd be like, I'm not your friend.

你是我的妈妈。

You're my mom.

而我妈妈会说，就算你是我的妈妈，也不意味着你就是我的朋友。

And my mom would say, just because I'm your mom doesn't mean I'm your friend.

她说，世界上有很多母亲和孩子之间并不是朋友关系。

She said, there are many mothers out there that aren't friends with their child.

是的。

Yeah.

她说，我是你的妈妈，我会永远以母亲的身份爱你，但你正在成为我的朋友。

And she said, I'm your mother and I will always love you as your mother but you are becoming my friend.

哇。

Wow.

这句话一直印在我心里。

And that stuck with me.

我意识到，友谊是一种选择。

I realized that friendship is a choice.

我们拥有的其他所有关系都不是。

Every other relation we have isn't.

因此，你的亲人也可能成为你的朋友，也可能不会成为你的朋友。

And so even your relatives can become your friends or may not be your friends.

我认为，理解这一点能帮助我们更好地理解自己如何与世界上的人互动。

And I think understanding that illuminates a lot of how you interact with people in the world.

是的，我非常认同你说的，我的意思是，你讲的每一点我都感同身受，但让我印象最深的是那种表演者的孤独感。

Yeah, I really resonate with what, I mean everything you said, but one of the things that stood out was that kind of performers loneliness.

我的工作最初是从辅导开始的，我接触了很多音乐人和经常巡演旅行的人，不是喜剧演员，而是艺术家，他们面对成千上万的观众演出，然后总是跟我聊起这一点。

My work mainly started with coaching and working with people and work with a lot of musicians and people who tour and travel not comedians but artists and they're performing to like 100,000 people, 80,000 people and then they would always talk to me about this.

但我当时并没有真正体会到这种感受。

And I didn't really have a empathetic experience of it.

我从理论上能理解它。

I could understand it theoretically.

而我过去常去演讲的活动大多是企业活动、商业活动之类的。

And then because most of the events I used to speak out were like corporate events or like a business event or things like that.

几年前，我第一次举办了属于我自己的活动，观众都是因为关注我的作品而来的，地点在洛杉矶。

And then a few years ago when I did my first ever event with my audience and it was in LA people who came because they followed my work, not because of anything else.

现场大约有2000人，活动结束后我上了车，突然意识到，哦，这完全是化学反应。

's only about 2,000 people in the audience and I finished the event and I got into the car and it hit me and I was like, oh like this is chemical.

这绝对是化学反应——你刚刚让成千上万的人喊你的名字，爱你说的每一句话，感受到所有的认可和肯定，那种兴奋感、多巴胺，一切的一切。

This is definitely chemical because you just had thousands of people shouting your name and like loving everything you say and all this validation and everything else as what you were saying when you were coming like the dopamine, the everything.

然后我突然想到，等等，这感觉有点奇怪，为什么我会感到孤独？这真的很有趣，因为那整个过程中我几乎都这样感觉，甚至想给谁打个电话。

And then all of a sudden I was like, wait a minute this feels weird like why do I feel like you know a sense of loneliness and it was really interesting because I felt like that pretty much the whole and I felt like calling someone.

但我没法打，因为那时伦敦还太早。

And I couldn't because in London it was too early.

我的朋友们都还没醒，他们比我们早八个小时，而我在洛杉矶，得再等一小时，不，是两小时，朋友才会起床。

None of my friends would be awake and so they're eight hours ahead because I'm in LA and I'm going I gotta wait another hour for my friend to wake up two hours.

我不会在半夜把他叫醒。

I'm not going to wake him up in the middle of the night.

所以我就在那里等着，而我在洛杉矶的所有朋友都参加了那个活动。

So I'm waiting there and then all my friends in LA were just at the event.

所以我只是见了他们一面，他们可能正要回家，而且那天是工作日，所以最后我想，我真不想。

So I just saw them and so they're probably like going home and it was a weeknight and so maybe the end I'm like, I don't want to.

然后我回到家，发现我妻子为我组织了一个惊喜派对，所有我最好的朋友、我在洛杉矶最亲近的朋友都在。

And then I get home and my wife had organized a surprise party for me with all my best friends, my closest friends in LA.

这让我感到如释重负。

And it was like a relief.

这甚至算不上庆祝。

It wasn't even a celebration.

就是一种解脱的感觉。

Was like, there's a sense of relief.

我当时想，天哪，谢谢上帝，不然我真的不知道今晚自己会怎样。

I was like, oh thank God because I don't know what I would have done tonight man.

你知道，我理解为什么人们会依赖毒品。

You know, I understand why people turn to drugs.

我理解为什么人们会去寻求那种感觉，那是我第一次意识到，哦，原来你

I understand why people turn to understand like it was the first time I was like, Because oh you

需要麻痹自己。

need to numb it.

是的，你需要

Yeah, you need

来麻痹自己。

to numb it.

你根本不知道该如何处理那种感觉。

You just don't know what to do with that feeling.

那是我第一次有这种感受，我无法想象，正如你所说，对于一个常年巡演、四处奔波的人来说

And that was the first time I'd felt that way and I can't imagine as you're saying for somebody who's on tour and traveling

每晚都是如此。

every night.

正如我跟你说的，我的毒品是巧克力。

As I said to you, my drug was chocolates.

哦，我也超爱巧克力。

Oh I love chocolate too.

就像我的团队知道，我的人都知道。

That was like my couldn't it's like my team knew, my people knew.

我做完演出后立刻就会吃，你可能更能理解这一点，因为你来自英国，而在美国人们并不太这么做。

It's like I'll do the show and immediately and you probably relate to this more because coming from The UK, in America they don't really do it.

在南非，我们的加油站，对吧？

In South Africa, our petrol stations, our gas stations, right?

它们旁边都有超棒的商店。

They have amazing stores attached to them.

但在这里，每个加油站都像是已经被抢过一样。

Like here every gas station looks like it's already been robbed.

你都不想在这儿加油。

You don't wanna pour gas.

不喜欢。

Don't like it.

看起来很糟糕。

It looks terrible.

它们都看起来被遗弃了。

They all look abandoned.

是的。

Yes.

它们看起来都像鬼城。

They all look like a ghost town.

确实如此。

They really do.

而我们那里呢，你会去买个派，买一些东西，买点

Whereas where we're from it's like, oh you go and you buy a pie, you buy some, you buy a

饮料。

few drinks.

而且那里正好有做好的食物。

And there's like cooked Exactly.

这就是生活。

It's like, this is life.

你可以

You can

不过还是可以买些杂货的。

get some groceries on though.

这是一个非常正常的概念。

It's a very normal concept.

每次演出后我都会这样。

And that would be me after every show.

我会开车，周围一片寂静，我不能听音乐，也不能，我的思绪会

I would drive, there would be the silence, I couldn't listen to music, I couldn't, my mind would

只是会

It's just be

我能听到每个人的声音，但他们都已经走了。

like I could hear everybody but they were gone.

然后我会进去，买巧克力就成了我的习惯。

And then I would go in and then I would buy, chocolate would be my thing.

那一刻，随着时间推移，我开始阅读，逐渐了解到巧克力、多巴胺、糖分，所有这些东西。

It immediately, and then I, you know, over the years I would read and I'd started learning that like, you know, chocolate, the dopamine, the sugar, all of these things.

其实是在无意识地纠正身体的化学失衡。

Was correcting a chemical thing without realizing it.

没错。

Correct.

因为这对你的身体来说是一种冲击。

Because it is a shock on your body.

每个人，什么都没有。

Everyone, nothing.

是的。

Yeah.

这种经历太令人着迷了，我相信每个人在生活中都会以不同的方式体验到。

It's so fascinating that experience and I'm sure people have that in different ways in their life.

你不需要在成千上万人面前表演才能感受到这种体验。

Like you don't have to be a performer for thousands of people to experience that.

我认为人们会以各种不同的方式经历这种感受。

I think people experience that in lots of different ways.

你能持续十年保持这个WhatsApp聊天群，真是太棒了，这简直是一项了不起的成就。

It's beautiful that you've been able to continue this ten year WhatsApp chat like that's, you know, that's like a brilliant achievement.

我们随着年龄增长所经历的最大转变之一，就是意识到并不是每个人都需要进入我们的核心圈子，这没关系。

One of the biggest shifts we experience as we get older is realizing that not everyone needs to be in our inner circle and that's okay.

随着成长，我们开始明白，在友谊中，质量比数量更重要。

As we grow we start to see that when it comes to friendships quality matters more than quantity.

内容创作者、企业家、Summer Fridays联合创始人玛丽安娜·休特对此深有体会。

Marianna Hewitt, content creator, entrepreneur, and co founder of Summer Fridays knows this firsthand.

她在打造成功品牌的同时，也重新定义了个人和职业生活中有意义的连接是什么样子。

She's built a successful brand while also redefining what meaningful connections look like in both her personal and professional life.

让我们听听她的看法。

Let's hear her take on it.

我们之前讨论过消耗能量的人和给予能量的人。

We've talked about energy drainers and energy givers before.

跟我们讲讲吧，因为我觉得每个人都会有这种感受，无论是人、地方还是项目，我们都会觉得某些人让我们耗竭，某些项目则让我们充满能量。

Walk us through that because I think everyone feels that whether it's people, places, projects, we all feel that certain people drain us, certain projects give us energy.

跟我们分享一下你的版本吧。

Walk us through your version of that.

是的，我消耗能量的事情就是对太多事情说好。

Yeah, my energy drainers are saying yes to too many things.

所以，对我而言，说不才能给我能量。

So saying no to me is what gives me energy.

我知道，刚开始说不可能很难，尤其是当你面对各种机会时，总想全部答应。

And I know that saying no might seem difficult at first, especially when you have opportunities that come to you and you want to say yes to everything.

但对我而言，只对那些我真心想做的事情说好，这非常有帮助。

But saying yes to things I absolutely want to do has been so helpful.

我现在有能力说不了，因为我觉得自己在二十多岁时努力奋斗，才有了今天的位置，因此我有底气拒绝一些事情。

I'm in a place now where I can say no, because I feel like I worked hard in my twenties to get to where I am today that I have the ability to say no to things.

但这些‘不’也很重要，因为它们让我得到了想要的工作、想要合作的品牌。

But those no's also are important because it's gotten me to the jobs I want to do, the brands I want to work with.

我认为，如果你对太多事情都说‘好’，可能会因为做太多事而稀释了自己。

I think if you say yes to too many things, you might dilute yourself doing too many things.

所以，要对那些与你想创作的内容、想合作的品牌、以及你个人和职业的长期目标一致的事情说‘好’。

So saying yes to the things that are in alignment with the content you want to create, the brands you want to work work with, the long term goals you have for yourself personally and professionally.

我其他的能量消耗源是不坚持早晨和晚上的日常习惯。

Other energy drainers that I have are not doing my morning routine and my evening routine.

真正为一天做好准备，才能为成功奠定基础。

So really setting myself up for the day sets me up for success.

我早上起床后。

I get up in the morning.

我通常会冥想。

I usually meditate.

我写感恩日记。

I gratitude journal.

我会做一些简单的拉伸。

I do like a little stretch.

我喝我的水。

I drink my water.

即使只是在早上做几件小事也能让我状态更好，因为如果我一醒来就立刻开始忙东忙西，就没有时间让自己静下来放松。

And even like just a few things in the morning set me up because if I wake up and I just instantly start doing things, there's no time for me just like in myself to turn off.

然后我就整天都在不停地思考。

And then I'm kind of just thinking all day long.

其他消耗能量的事情，有时是工作和人际关系。

Other energy drainers, sometimes it's work and people.

我知道这一点很难设立界限，因为你可能无法控制工作中必须相处的人，或者不得不花时间相处的人。

And I know that that one's a really difficult one to have boundaries around because you maybe cannot control who you have to be around with work or people that you have to spend your time with.

所以要为这些人和事设立界限，让自己感觉最好。

So it's creating boundaries around those people and things to make you feel your best.

所以也许在工作中，你可以不坐在那个人旁边，或者专注于做好自己的事，这样就不必太靠近他们，因为我知道我们不可能总是彻底消除生活中的能量消耗者。

So maybe it's at work, you don't sit next to that person or you, you know, focus on working on yourself when you're at work so you don't have to be near them too much because I know that we can't always, like, eliminate energy drainers in our life.

如果是生活中的人，那就更难了。

And if it's someone in our life personally, it's difficult.

但随着年龄增长，我意识到，好吧。

But as I've gotten older, I realized, okay.

这个人和这个朋友和我在一起时会消耗我的能量。

This person and this friend is draining my energy when I'm around them.

我感觉不好。

I don't feel great.

离开他们之后，我也没觉得更好。

I don't feel better after I left them.

我甚至觉得和他们在一起时更加疲惫。

I almost feel more drained just being around them.

所以我可以从远处爱你。

And so I can love you from a distance.

我依然爱你。

I still love you.

我依然喜欢你，但我不必花很多时间跟你在一起，这没关系。

I still like you, but I don't have to spend a lot of time with you and that's okay.

我可以从远处支持你，但我知道，只要和你在一起，我就不会感觉最好。

I can support you from afar, but I know that if I'm around you, I don't feel my best.

我希望我的生活中多一些能给我能量的人。

And I want more of those energy givers in my life.

我和谁在一起时，离开后会感觉更好？

Who do I hang out with and I feel better after I leave them?

谁让我感到更快乐、更完整、更有动力、更有活力？

Who makes me feel happier and whole, motivated, energized?

我总是喜欢和你在一起，因为每次见到你，你都让我们感觉特别棒。

And I always love being around you because whenever I see you, you make us feel so great.

你真是个很棒的朋友。

You're such a great friend.

我们的朋友奥德丽是另一个我本想说的奥德丽。

Our friend Audrey is another one the I was gonna say Audrey.

是的。

Yeah.

我想到的人就是奥德丽。

The person that came to my mind was I was like, Audrey.

她太棒了。

She's amazing.

我们爱你，奥德丽。

We love you, Audrey.

我们爱你，奥德丽。

We love you, Audrey.

她真的是那种你希望围绕在身边的人，像她这样的人。

And she really is one of those people where you wanna be around people who are good like that.

你希望身边的人能让你成为最好的自己。

You want people who make you feel your best.

随着我年龄增长，朋友的数量变得不那么重要了。

And so as I've gotten older, it's less about quantity of friends.

重要的是朋友的质量。

It's quality of friends.

我选择把时间花在那些能给我能量、让我感觉最好的人身上。

And I choose to spend time with the people in my life who give me energy and make me feel my best.

因为如果你注意到，离开某个朋友后，你感到有点疲惫、耗尽，或者只是觉得‘哇’，那你可能该开始慢慢疏远这些人，从远处爱他们。

Because if you notice that after you leave a friend and maybe you're a little bit tired or drained or you're just like, woah, and you left them, like, okay to start like phasing out people and love them from afar.

是的，我完全同意这一点。

Yeah I couldn't agree more with that.

我看到一条推文说，我的社交圈变小了，但价值提升了，我认为这就是你所分享的心态，而我认为这是很多人难以做到的。

I saw this tweet that said my circle is shrunk in size but increased in value and I think that that's the mindset that you're sharing then I think that's something people struggle with.

我觉得我们会有负罪感，因为我们觉得是在抛弃朋友，或者担心别人会认为我们自以为高人一等。

I think we feel guilty because we feel like we're leaving friends behind or we feel bad because we feel people are going to think we're better than them.

当你从一个群体中走出来时，你常常担心这群人会认为‘杰伊或玛丽安娜觉得他们比我们强’。

Like when you move on from a group, you're often worried about the perception that those group of people are going to think oh Jay or Marianna think that they're better.

你并不是因为觉得自己高人一等才离开的。

And it's like, well you're not leaving because you think you're better.

你离开是因为你想变得更好，想成长。

You're leaving because you want to be better and you want to grow.

你是如何逐渐超越某些群体的？还是你觉得你一直有一个和你共同成长的圈子？或者你是否不得不放下一些友谊、关系？

How have you kind of outgrown groups or do you feel you've generally had a group that's grown with you but or have you had to let go of friendships, relationships and things

我有五个核心朋友，他们已经陪伴我十多年了。

like I have core like five people who have been with me for like over a decade.

这些朋友真的很了不起。

So That's these are like impressive.

他们是我生命中的常量。

These are constants in my life.

比如奥黛丽，我们是2006年认识的，那已经是十六年前了。

Like Audrey we met in 2006 so that's like sixteen years ago.

所以我们已经做了很久的朋友。

So we've been friends for a very long time.

所以，我有一群核心人物，他们对我而言至关重要。

So it's like, I had this core group of people who are very core to who I am.

他们了解我生活中的方方面面。

They know me in my personal life.

这就是我想花时间相处的人。

This is who I wanna spend my time with.

这跟内容、网络或任何其他东西都无关。

Like, it's not about content or online or anything.

我只是想知道，我想和谁一起坐在沙发上，刷手机、看电视，或者只是闲逛，这些人对我来说真的很重要。

It's just like, who do I wanna sit on my couch with, like, scroll on my phone or watch TV or just hang out with, and those people are really important to me.

我有很多熟人，都是因为工作或日常接触认识的。

I have a lot of acquaintances and people that we know just from work and being around people.

我知道我不必和很多人走得太近，这没关系。

And I just know, like, I don't have to be overly close with a lot of people, and that's okay.

我觉得我在三十多岁时学到的一课是，小圈子就很好。

And I think a lesson that I learned now in my thirties was that a smaller circle is fine.

在我二十多岁的时候，我觉得你搬到了洛杉矶。

In my twenties, I think you moved to Los Angeles.

你想要结交所有这些朋友。

You wanna make all these friends.

你想要和这些人待在一起。

You wanna be around all these people.

然后我就想，等等。

And then I'm like, wait.

我和他们在一起时感觉不太好。

I don't feel great when I'm around them.

我感觉不像自己。

I don't feel like myself.

我觉得我必须假装成另一个人，或者向他们证明我是什么样的人。

I feel like I'm trying to have to be someone I'm not or prove to them that I'm something.

我不想去做这些事。

And I don't wanna do those things.

我想做真正真实的自己。

Like, I wanna be truly who I am authentically.

当我进入三十岁后，我意识到圈子小一点也没关系。

And as I got into my thirties, I realized it's okay that my circle is smaller.

拥有那些无论发生什么都会爱我、支持我的人，这完全没问题。

Like it's okay to have these people who I know love me and are there for me no matter what.

其他所有人都是额外的惊喜。

And then everyone else is a bonus.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

我很喜欢你做到了这一点。

And I love that you did that.

如果我们把人际关系看作是连接的深浅程度，而不是简单的‘朋友’或‘不是朋友’的话。

I think if we started seeing our relationships as degrees of connection as opposed to like friends and not friends.

那就更容易知道该给某人多少时间和精力了。

It becomes a lot easier to know how much time and how much energy to give someone.

我们都明白，保持活跃和健康饮食是长寿健康的关键。

We all know that staying active and eating well are key to a long healthy life.

但如果真正的秘诀并不只是个人自律，而是我们身边的人呢？

But what if the real secret isn't just personal discipline but the people we surround ourselves with?

研究表明，我们的社交圈对习惯的影响比我们想象的要大得多。

Research shows our social circles shape our habits more than we think.

丹·巴特纳是国家地理学会研究员、畅销书作者，也是‘蓝区’的创始人，他多年来一直研究世界上长寿人群聚集的地区。

Dan Butner, National Geographic fellow, best selling author and founder of the Blue Zones has spent years studying the world's longest living communities.

他将在这里分享连接、竞争与合作如何影响我们的健康。

He's here to share how connection, competition and collaboration can shape our well-being.

让我们一起来听听。

Let's listen in.

我实际上把我在洛杉矶的一个小社交圈成员带到这里了。

I actually have one of my little social groups from Los Angeles here.

我以前住在这里。

I used to live here.

我仍然有四个人，我几乎都不认识，这辈子只见过他们一次

I still have four people and I hardly know, I've seen them once in

但每天我们都会互相邮件分享体重，这让我们能坚持下去。

my life but every day we email each other our weight and it kind of keeps us doing it.

我们对彼此负有责任，过去十年左右，我们每个人的体重都略有下降。

We were accountable to somebody and every one of us, our weight has gone down a little bit over the last decade or so.

对于普通美国男性来说，十年内你可能会多出十磅体重。

And for the average American male in ten years, you can expect to gain an extra ten years.

所以即使在我的小团体里，这种方法效果非常好。

So even among my little focus group, we've been, it's worked really quite well.

竞争与合作结合在一起非常有趣。

Competition and collaboration together are really fascinating.

确实如此。

Really, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

很强大。

Powerful.

是的，这就是为什么匹克球适合我。

Yeah, it's why pickleball works for me.

这也是为什么我认为有这么多人在家庭中参与一万步挑战，而大多数人实际上走的步数远超一万步，因为他们想赢过家人，结果每个人的平均步数都在增加。

It's also why I think I have so many people I know do 10,000 step challenges within their family and most of those people are walking way over 10,000 steps simply because they're trying to beat someone in their family and then everyone's average is growing up.

所以我认为，将某件事变得既有竞争性又有协作性，正是社交网络、健身和生活中乐趣的精髓，很多东西都源于此。

And so I think that making something competitive and collaborative is the genius of the social network, the fitness, the fun in life, like so much of it comes from that

而我认为我们已经失去了这一点。

and I think we've lost that.

我们在城市中采用的一种策略，源自冲绳的‘摩艾’理念，即一个承诺的社交圈。

One of the strategies we deploy in our cities, it's an idea we took from Okinawa, the notion of a Moai, a committed social circle.

我们会让四五百人来到健身房。

And we'll get four or 500 people to show up to a gym.

我们会让他们根据所住的社区围成圈子。

We'll have them circle up according to what neighborhood they live in.

我们会问他们一堆问题，比如他们是否信仰宗教、最喜欢的食物是什么、喜欢听什么音乐，并让他们在回答这些问题时互相观察。

We ask them a bunch of questions about, you know, are they religious, what their favorite food is, what they listen for music and have them look at each other as these questions are being answered.

然后让他们自行组成五人小组。

And then we have them self select in groups of five people.

其中很多人原本是完全孤独的。

And a lot of these people are completely lonely.

一旦他们自行组成这些小组——我们称之为‘摩艾’——我们就让他们给自己取个名字，然后组织他们一起散步。

And once they self select in these clusters, call them moais, we have them give themselves a name and then we organize them around walking together.

每个人都可以一起散步。

Everybody can walk together.

然后在十周结束时，我们会提供一个小奖品。

And then we offer a little prize at the end of ten weeks.

在这十周期间，这些人的步行量远超平时，而且他们围绕散步建立起了社交网络或社交圈；据我们了解，大约60%的人在四年后仍然保持联系。

What happens during that ten weeks is not only are these people walking a lot more than they normally would, they're creating a social network or a social circle around walking that in many cases we know about 60% are still around four years later.

所以，正如你刚开始提到的，这是协作的力量——围绕健康行为建立一个社交圈。

So as you were starting to latch onto, it's the power of collaboration but creating a social circle around a healthy behavior.

这才是能够持久并随着时间推移产生真正意义的东西。

That's what's going to last and that's what's going to matter over time.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我想快速回到饮食和食物的话题，因为你们提到一种很棒的新方法，这种方法在印度部分地区很流行，我们也是从这个角度来传授的——就是在吃饭时吃到八分饱。

I wanted to quickly jump back to diet and food because there's this great technique that you have, new method mentioned and this was popular in parts of India that we're teaching it from this perspective as well that the method you spoke about was being eight out of 10 full when you're eating.

当我们第一次接触这个理念时，尤其是在东方或阿育吠陀的视角下，我们了解到呼吸也是饱腹感的一部分，食物并不是让胃感到饱足的唯一因素；我就是通过这种方式理解‘七分饱’或‘八分饱’的概念，其余部分则由呼吸来填补。

And when we were trained about that, when we'd hear about it from a from an Eastern or Vedic perspective, the idea of how breath is part of feeling full and so food is not the only thing that your stomach is full on was how I was introduced to that idea of being seven tenths full or eight tenths full and the rest would be covered by breath.

当然，水也是其中之一。

Of course, there's water as well.

能给我们详细讲讲如何做到在八分饱时就停止进食吗？因为我觉得大多数人都是吃到十分饱，甚至十二分饱才停下，是吧？没错。

Walk us through that idea of how we can all stop eating at eight tenths full because I think most of us wait till ten or 12:10 Yeah, exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这个理念源自孔子。

So, so it has its roots in Confucius.

冲绳人有一句俗语叫‘腹八分目’，提醒人们在胃部八成饱时就停止进食。

The Okinawans have this saying Hara Hachibu which is a reminder to stop eating when their stomachs are 80% full.

他们会在餐前像祈祷一样说出这句话。

And they'll say that like a prayer before a meal.

所以，与其说感恩祷告之类的，这更像是一种提醒。

So instead of saying grace or whatever, it's a reminder.

不过我认为，很多情况下这种做法实际上是在餐桌上进行的。

I believe though much of it is actually done at the table.

他们通常会在餐前就把食物分好，并把剩菜收起来，而不是等到餐后才因无意识地进食而浪费。

They tend to pre plate their foods and put the leftovers away at the beginning of the meal instead of the end when you might be mindlessly eating.

他们没有电视，因此不会一边看最爱的电视节目一边无意识地吃东西。

They don't have a TV so they're not mindlessly eating to their favorite television show.

和朋友围坐在一起，放慢用餐节奏。

Sitting around with friends, slowing the meal down.

从胃部感到饱足到大脑接收到这个信号，大约需要二十分钟。

It takes about twenty minutes from the full feeling to travel from your belly to your brain.

如果你狼吞虎咽地吃东西，不呼吸，像你说的，也不喝水，那么在你意识到之前，很可能就已经吃太多了。

And if you're wolfing your food down, if you're not breathing, like you say, not drinking water, there's a pretty good chance you're going to overeat before you know it.

和朋友一起创业听起来像是梦想，对吧？

Building a business with your friends sounds like a dream, right?

但随着成功增长，挑战也随之增加。

But as success grows, so do the challenges.

在应对艰难决策的压力、清晰领导并扩大公司规模的同时，你如何保护这些关系？

How do you protect those relationships while navigating the pressures of making tough decisions, leading with clarity and scaling a company?

为了阐明这一点，我们邀请到Airbnb的联合创始人兼首席执行官布莱恩·切斯基。

To shed light on this, we have Brian Chesky, co founder and CEO of Airbnb.

他在打造全球最知名品牌之一的同时，始终坚守着创业之初的那些关系。

He's built one of the most recognizable brands in the world while staying grounded in the relationships that started it all.

让我们听听他的见解。

Let's hear his insights.

我很感兴趣。

I'm intrigued.

你刚才说的那句话让我印象深刻。

You said something there that really stood out to me.

你说，成功最幸福、最好的地方在于，你可以选择与谁共事。

You said that the happiest thing and the best thing about being successful is that you get to choose the people you worked with.

你显然是和朋友一起打造了这家公司。

You obviously built this with friends.

是的。

Yeah.

当初就是这样开始的。

And that's how it started.

它始于与你所爱的人在一起的时刻。

It started in a place of being around people you love with.

在与你所爱的人共同创业并不断成长的过程中，最大的挑战是什么？

What was the biggest point of challenge in building something with people you love as you grow it?

你经历了哪些情况？

And what is it that you experienced?

那你觉得最大的教训是什么，它真正让这一切持续了下来？

And what was the biggest lesson that you took away that actually kept it going?

因为当我听你描述这些起起落落和十六年来的种种变化时，我很难想象你们居然还能继续一起打拼。

Because I can imagine as you're describing highs and lows, all of this change for sixteen years, but here you are still building it together.

想想你听过多少关于创始人的故事。

Think about how many stories you heard of founders.

这就像一支乐队。

It's like a band.

他们聚在一起，但最终乐队总会解散。

They come together, and then eventually the band breaks up.

人们往往无法长久相处。

And people don't stay together.

他们彼此怨恨。

They resent each other.

有时候结局会非常难看。

Maybe things end very ugly.

这就像一个乐队，但不同的是，它变得远比乐队大得多，因为不只是你们三个人。

It's like a band except, like, it becomes so much bigger than a band because it's not just the three of you.

想象一个乐队，最初只有三个人，最后却扩展到三千人。

Imagine a band that starts three people and ends as 3,000 people.

这种压力、聚光灯下的关注、金钱、以及人们地位和角色的变化，足以让很多人分道扬镳。

And that amount of pressure, the amount of spotlight, the money, the changes in, like, people's status and positioning, it can do a lot to break people up.

但与乐队不同的是，乐队可能只需要在演出地点和唱什么歌上达成一致就行。

But also, unlike a band where maybe and not to say you just have to agree on, like, where you perform and what you sing.

而公司则需要在招聘谁、公司叫什么名字、进入哪些市场、优先级如何安排、以及向谁融资等无数事项上达成一致。

With a company, you have to agree on, like, who we're gonna hire, what we're gonna call, what markets we're gonna go into, what's the prioritization, like, who we're gonna raise money for.

我可以列出成千上万件你们必须达成共识的事情。

I can go down the list of, like, the thousands of things you have to agree to.

对于乔、内特和我来说，我经常说，和朋友一起创业真的很好。

And with Joe, Nate, and I, I often say it's really good to start a company with friends.

并不是每个人都有朋友可以一起创业，但你确实需要这份善意的储备。

Not everyone has friends to start a company with, but you want that reservoir of goodwill.

我们做了一个决定。

And we made a decision.

这个决定是，没有任何一个决定会凌驾于我们的友谊和关系之上，我们会争论、会争执，但绝不会让赢得争论成为最重要的事。

The decision was that no one decision is gonna supersede our friendship and our relationship, that we're never gonna have we'll debate, we'll argue, but we'll never allow a situation where winning an argument is the most important thing.

因为你要把公司看作是十万次决策，它也可能变成十万次争执。

Because you think about a company as a 100,000 decisions, it could also be a 100,000 arguments.

如果你卡在第一次争论上，或者觉得某人赢了辩论，那也没关系。

And if you get stuck on the first debate or you like somebody won the debate, okay.

很好。

Great.

你还有九万九千九百九十九件事要讨论。

You have 99,999 more things to discuss.

所以我学到的教训是，首先，杰，我很幸运。

And so the lesson I learned is I mean, first of all, Jay, I was lucky.

当我说我很幸运时，很多人以为，哦，你正好在对的时间、对的地点遇到了对的点子。

And a lot of people, when I say I was lucky, they think, oh, you were at the right place at the right time at the right idea.

我说，也许吧。

And I said, well, maybe.

但我有一件事更幸运。

But there's something I was much luckier about.

我最幸运的是遇到了乔和内特，我们之间有着不可思议的默契。

And what I was most lucky about what what made me most fortunate was I met Joe and Nate, that we have this unbelievable chemistry.

有一次，我们不得不做了一个性格测试。

One time, we had to do, like, some personality test.

就是那种核心轮测试。

It's like one of those core wheels.

我们做了这个性格测试，来看看我们的默契如何。

And we took this, like, personality test to see about our chemistry.

他们把我们的性格特点绘制成图，结果形成了一个完美的等边三角形。

And they plotted our like personalities and they formed a perfect equilateral triangle.

你并不总是能遇到完全互补你的人。

Not always you're gonna find people that are perfect compliments to you.

我想说几点。

I'd say a couple things.

第一，你希望组建一个团队，成员是你真正的朋友，或者有潜力成为朋友的人，你对他们怀有深厚的爱与尊重，因为如果一切顺利，你花在联合创始人身上的时间可能会超过你的配偶或家人。

Number one, you wanna have a team with people that you are friends with or could see yourself becoming friends with, that you have a deep love and respect for, that you're gonna probably spend more time with your cofounders than your spouse or your family if it goes well.

如果事情不顺，那可能就不是这样了。

If it doesn't go well, then maybe not.

但最好的情况是，大家拥有共同的价值观。

But that's the best case scenario, that people that have shared values.

因为只要你们的目标一致，都在努力攀登同一座山，遵循同样的准则，任何事情都可以讨论。

Because you can debate anything so long as you're trying to climb the same mountain and the same police system.

如果价值观不同，最终这些分歧会演变成无法调和的冲突。

If you have different values, eventually, those are gonna become irreconcilable conflicts.

但你也可能希望团队成员技能互补。

But you probably also want complementary skills.

最糟糕的情况是，价值观不同，技能却完全相同。

The worst case is people with different values and same skills.