洛里·戈特利布：七个你不敢问的约会问题答案，以及如何摆脱关系的时间表

可能是名人、顶级健康专家，或是首席执行官或商业领袖。

It could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader.

我们将深入探讨旨在激发成长、引发学习并建立真实联系的体验。

We'll dive into experiences designed to inspire growth, spark learning, and build real connections.

我迫不及待想在那里见到你们。

I can't wait to see you there.

门票现已开售。

Tickets are on sale now.

前往 jschetti.me，今天就购买你的票吧。

Head to jschetti.me and get yours today.

我觉得，Lori，我们在这里正揭示出一些非常有趣的东西。

I think Lori, we're uncovering something really interesting here.

就好像，我觉得我们并不真正了解人际连接是什么。

It's like, I feel like we don't know what human connection is.

对。

Right.

我觉得我们并不懂得什么是人类的爱。

I feel like we don't know what human love is.

就像我们现在探讨的这样，因为它确实很难定义，但我感觉我们不知道健康的连接和沟通应该是什么样子的。

Like what we're getting to here, it's like, because it is so hard to define, I guess, but there's a sense of we don't know what healthy connection communication looks like.

因为很可能我们在家里从未见过它。

Because chances are we haven't seen it at home.

我们在周围的环境中也未曾见过它。

We haven't seen it around us.

我们在媒体上从未见过它。

We haven't seen it in the media.

所以有一种无法镜像或无法反映那种深刻、深沉的爱的体验的感觉。

So there's a sense of not being able to mirror or not being able to reflect something that embodies that deep, profound experience of love.

所以当你说你没有看到有人让你感到被倾听、被理解、被看见时，根据你所有的经验和阅读，你已经从事这项工作几十年了，你认为我们应该在健康关系中追求的人类连接的核心价值观是什么？

So when you're saying you're not looking at someone who's giving you the ability to feel listened, heard, seen, like what is from all of your experience and everything you've read, you've done this for decades now, like what have you seen are the core values of human connection that we should be aspiring for in a healthy relationship?

我们甚至能定义这些吗？

Can we even define those?

我们忘记了爱并不是一种虚无缥缈的感觉。

We forget that love is not some kind of airy feeling.

对吧？

Right?

爱其实是这样的，人们常说，陷入爱河的人就像吸毒者一样。

Love is you know, people say that people in love are actually like people on drugs.

这同样是多巴胺的反应。

It's the same dopamine reaction.

所以你根本无法理智思考。

And so you're not really thinking straight.

因此，那种感觉可能像是迷恋，让人感觉非常好。

So that might feel like infatuation that feels really good.

是的，这是感受到深度连接和爱的一个组成部分。

And yes, that's a component of feeling really connected and feeling love.

但日常生活中的爱是一种行动。

But love in the day to day is a verb.

我该如何对他人表现出爱意？

How can I be loving to another person?

别人是如何以行动向我表达爱的？

How is someone being loving as a verb to me?

我记得有一次，一对夫妻让我深受触动，妻子对丈夫说：你知道我最想听的三个词是什么吗？

And so I remember this struck me so much when I had a couple and the woman in the couple said to her husband, you know what three words I really want to hear?

他立刻回答：我爱你。

And he immediately said, I love you.

你希望我多说‘我爱你’？

You want to hear I love you more.

她回答：不。

And she said, no.

我知道你爱我。

I know you love me.

我想听的是‘我理解你’。

I want to hear I understand you.

对她来说，那就是爱。

And that to her was love.

对吧？

Right?

我知道你说你爱我。

I know that you say you love me.

我希望你能让我感受到你爱我，因为我希望被你理解，也想理解你。

I want you to show me you love me because I want to feel understood by you and I want to understand you.

我认为在充满爱的关系中，我们常常忽视了去理解自己并表达出来，或者去理解对方。

And I think so much what we don't do in a loving relationship is we don't take the understand ourselves and communicate that or understand the other person.

这真的需要一种爱的行动。

It really takes an act of love.

这是一个非常棒的观点，甚至听到你这么说，让我深深共鸣，因为我看待爱的方式就是这样，我看到关系中的许多冲突，都是因为人们彼此相爱却并不理解对方。

It's such a great point and even hearing you say that, it resonates so strongly with how I see love and how much I see the conflicts that exist in relationships being because people love each other but they don't understand each other.

他们确实不理解，而且也没有好奇心，对吧？

They don't and they're not curious, right?

所以他们觉得，如果你不理解我，那你就不爱我。

So they feel like if you don't understand me then you know, you don't love me.

如果他们这么做的话。

If you they do this.

如果你爱我，你就会做X。

If you loved me, you would x.

而不是让我告诉你我现在的感觉。

As opposed to let me tell you how I'm feeling right now.

让我向你解释一下，因为事实是，如果他们理解你，他们很可能会做X。

Let me explain this to you because the truth is if they understood you, they would do X, probably.

但这不是因为爱不爱你，爱不爱与他们会做X毫无关系。

But it's not if they love you, it has nothing to do with if they love you, they would do X.

是的，这太有力量了。

Yeah, that's so powerful.

这太真实了。

That's so true.

这个观点也深深触动了我。

It's resonating so strongly with me too.

我们总以为，只要我说‘我爱你’，就意味着我理解你。

That idea of we think that if I say I love you, that means I understand you.

是的。

Yes.

但对方却说：我知道你爱我，但你并不理解我，你没有听见我，你没有看见我。

But the person on the other side is saying, No, I get that you love me, but you're not understanding me, you're not hearing me, you're not seeing me.

我常常觉得，我们以为爱可以弥补缺乏理解，但爱其实做不到。

And I often think that we think love makes up for a lack of understanding, but love can't.

爱无法填补理解的缺失。

Love can't complete a lack of understanding.

爱无法弥补你根本没有认真倾听对方在说什么这一事实，因为爱常常是一种笼统的情感，而不是你所说的这种正在表达的主动行为。

Love can't complete the fact that you haven't really listened to what the other person is saying because love can often be this overarching emotion as opposed to what you're saying this active verb that's being expressed.

所以我认为，这对人们来说是一个很好的启示：有人真的在努力理解你吗？

And so I think that's a great takeaway for people is, is someone actually trying to understand you?

我认为我们有一种直觉，认为如果一个人在第一天就能接上我们的话，或者和我们喜欢同样的东西，那他们一定理解我们。

And I think we have this intuitive feeling that if someone completes our sentences on the first day or they like the same things we like, then they must understand us.

对吧？

Right?

我们在聊最爱的食物，双方都同意意大利菜是我们的最爱，或者我们都喜欢喜剧电影，几乎就感觉被理解了。

We're talking about our favorite foods and we both agree that Italian cuisine is our favorite food or we both agree that we love comedy movies and we love, we almost we feel understood.

我觉得，在这种被理解的时刻，双方都停止了试图去理解对方和被对方理解。

And I feel like both people in that moment of feeling understood, stop trying to understand and be understood.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

你所说的，是拥有共同点，而这和你进入一段关系时所带的东西是完全不同的。

What you're talking about is having things in common, which is very different from what you're coming into the relationship with.

你可能有很多共同的兴趣，比如都喜欢寿司、轮滑，喜欢这类电影、电视剧和这种美食，对吧？

So you can have a lot of interests in common, you might both like sushi and rollerblading and these kinds of movies and these kinds of TV shows and this kind of cuisine, right?

然后你会说，我们有这么多共同点。

And you say, We have so much in common.

我们喜欢同样的音乐。

We love this same music.

读同样的东西。

Read the same things.

这就是你们的共同点。

That's what you have in common.

但这并不意味着你理解了对方的运行方式。

That doesn't mean that you understand the person's operating instructions.

我的意思是，当你买任何新车时，都会附带一本手册。

And what I mean by that is when you get anything, new car, you know, it comes with a manual.

它告诉你这辆车是如何运行的。

And it's just like this is how this car operates.

而且它和你之前的车不一样。

And it's different from your last car.

所以，仅仅因为它是车，并不意味着它的运行方式和你之前的车一样，比如这个按钮会在这里。

So just because it's a car doesn't mean it operates in the same way like this button is going to be over here.

如果你想控制它，这个按钮会在这里。

And if you want to control this, it's going to be over here.

它不喜欢你这样做，而喜欢你那样做，对吧？

And it doesn't like when you do this, and it likes when you do this, right?

说明书就是这么说的。

That's what the manual says.

我们需要为我们的员工提供这样的指南。

We need that for our people.

我们需要知道他们的操作指南是什么。

We need to know what is their what are their operating instructions.

我们假设因为我们在这么多方面有共同点，所以对方会懂我的操作方式，我也懂对方的操作方式。

And we assume that because we have all this in common, that that person is going to know my operating instructions, and I'm going to know that person's operating instructions.

但我们必须与对方分享我们的操作指南。

But we have to share our operating instructions with the other person.

仅仅因为你希望在找我倾诉时能被理解，对吧？

Just because you like to be lit when you want to come to me with something and you just want to vent, right?

我实际上想要反馈。

I actually want feedback.

这并不意味着我们希望被倾听的方式是一样的。

That doesn't mean that we have the same way of wanting to be listened to.

当你感到难过时，你会这样做。

When you are feeling sad, you do this.

当我感到难过时，我需要这样做。

When I'm feeling sad, I need this.

这些都是不同的事情。

Those are different things.

当我生气时，我需要立刻谈论它。

When I'm angry, I need to talk about it right away.

当你生气时，你需要绕着街区走一圈。

When you're angry, you need to walk around the block.

哦，这真是很好的信息。

Oh, that's really good information.

我没看过你的使用手册。

I didn't read your manual.

再多告诉我一些。

Tell me more.

所以我们必须对‘告诉我你的操作指南’保持真正的好奇，通过与他人相处和体验，我们会发现，尽管我们有很多共同点并能产生共鸣，但他们实际上与我们是独立的个体。

So we have to be really curious about tell me your operating instructions and we learn that just by experiencing the other person and seeing that while we have a lot in common and we connect, they're actually separate and apart from us.

他们是另一个人。

They're a different person.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常重要。

And that's so important.

那么，我们该如何去爱呢？爱是什么？

So how can we be loving what is love?

爱就是花时间去理解你的操作指南。

Love is saying, I'm taking the time to understand your operating instructions.

说得太好了。

That's so well put.

我认为我们在这方面非常挣扎，因为我们对自己‘操作手册’的自我认知不足。

And I think we struggle with that so much because we don't have enough self awareness of our own operating instructions.

然后我们产生了一种扭曲的看法，认为爱意味着你应该能理解言外之意，但今天没有人会去阅读设备的使用说明。

And then we have this warped view that love means you should be able to understand and read in between the lines and none of us read the operating instructions for our devices today.

所以我们也不去揣摩言外之意，而对方却坐在那里想：如果你爱我，你就该知道这一切。

So we're also not reading between the lines and the other person sitting there going, well, if you love me, you'd know all of this.

你怎么可能在十年后还不知道，我非常重视过生日或纪念日呢？

How can you not know after ten years that I love celebrating my birthday or anniversaries are really important to me.

让我感到惊讶的是，我们并不愿意帮助别人来帮助我们。

It's fascinating to me that we don't want to help people help us.

没错，以生日为例，有人会对伴侣说：你生日想怎么过？

Right, so what we do using the birthday example is somebody will say you know to their partner, what would you like to do for your birthday?

对方却回答：哦，没什么大不了的。

And they say, oh it's no big deal.

但他们其实真的想要些什么，他们以为当我说‘没什么大不了’、‘别担心’的时候，我的伴侣就应该明白。

But they really actually want something and they think my partner should know that when I say it's no big deal, don't worry about it.

然后伴侣却说：‘我们就简单吃顿晚饭吧’，而他们其实想要的是盛大的派对，伴侣却完全没理解。

And then the partner says, Oh, we're just going to like do a quiet dinner when they wanted a big party that their partner doesn't get them at all.

他们的伴侣怎么会知道，‘没什么大不了’其实意味着‘我超爱大型派对’？

How did their partner know that no big deal actually meant I love big parties?

在一起三年了，你怎么可能没注意到我特别喜欢参加大型派对？

How do you not notice after being together for three years that I love being at big parties.

所以你应该明白，我说‘没什么大不了’其实就是说‘我超爱大型派对’。

So you should have known that my no big deal meant I love big parties.

但为什么我们不能直接表达自己的愿望呢？

But why can't we just communicate our desires?

为什么坦诚表达就会破坏浪漫？

Why does that take away from the magic?

我们总觉得，如果得自己说清楚，那就说明我们之间没化学反应了。

We think if I have to explain it, there's no chemistry between us.

你本来就该知道。

You should just know.

但我们应该能直接说：嘿，我想要一个盛大的派对。

But we should be able to say, Hey, I would love a big party.

我喜欢和我所有的人、所有朋友一起庆祝。

I love celebrating in the company of all of my people and all of my friends.

当你知道后，对你的伴侣来说真是松了一口气——我现在能取悦你，给你 exactly 你想要的，因为我终于明白了。

What a relief for your partner to know, I can please my partner and give my partner exactly what my partner wants because now I know.

你好，这里是医生。

Hey there, this is Doctor.

杰西·米尔斯，加州大学洛杉矶分校健康中心男性诊所主任，也是《邮件室》播客的主持人。

Jesse Mills, Director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom Podcast.

每年一月，各地的男性都会立下同样的决心。

Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions.

变得更强大，更努力工作，修复那些破损的东西。

Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken.

但如果真正的努力根本不是身体上的呢？

But what if the real work isn't physical at all?

为了开启新的一年，我与一位医生进行了交谈。

To kick off the new year, I sat down with Doctor.

史蒂夫·波尔特，一位拥有三十多年经验的心理学家，帮助男性梳理他们从未学会命名的羞耻、焦虑和情感痛苦。

Steve Polter, a psychologist with over thirty years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name.

在一场深入的两部分对话中，我们探讨了为什么男性并非情感上坚不可摧，为什么羞耻感总是藏在明处，以及真正的力量源于倾听自己和他人。

In a powerful two part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others.

那些有毒的男性，往往不成熟，或者有一些未解决的问题。

Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved.

一旦这些问题得到解决，同理心和同情心就会随之而来。

Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion.

如果你希望今年不再硬撑痛苦，而是开始理解痛苦背后的真正原因，请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何平台收听《Mail Room》。

If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to The Mail Room on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

你好。

Hi.

我是普里扬卡·瓦利。

I'm Doctor.

普里扬卡·瓦利。

Priyanka Wally.

我是哈里·孔达波古卢。

And I'm Hari Kondaboglu.

新的一年到了，在播客《健康那些事》中，我们重新思考如何谈论健康。

It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.

这意味着坦诚面对我们所知道的、不知道的，以及这一切可能有多混乱。

Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.

我喜欢晚睡晚起。

I like to sleep in late and sleep early.

有这种作息类型的生物节律吗，还是我只是抑郁了？

Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?

我们会与专家交谈，分享真实的经验和见解。

We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.

你真正需要找到的是，在自己的生活中哪里你能产生影响，并开始行动。

You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and to start doing that.

我们会拆解你想要深入了解的话题。

We break down the topics you want to know more about.

睡眠、压力、心理健康，以及周围世界如何影响我们的整体健康。

Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.

我们会探讨各种方法，让你的身心内外都保持健康。

We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy.

我们人类，最想要的其实就是连接。

We human beings, all we want is connection.

我们只是想彼此建立联系。

We just wanna connect with each other.

《健康那些事》关乎学习、欢笑，以及感到不那么孤单。

Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何播客平台收听。

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

新的一年并不意味着抹去过去的你。

A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were.

它意味着尊重你所经历的苦难，并选择你希望如何成长。

It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow.

它意味着允许自己感受那些一直压抑的情绪，并知道寻求帮助是完全可以的。

It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help.

我是迈克·德拉罗查，《神圣课程》的主持人。

I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons.

这个播客为男性提供了一个开放讨论心理健康、哀伤、人际关系以及我们继承却不必重复的模式的空间。

This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat.

在这里，我们放慢脚步。

Here, we slow down.

我们倾听，学习脆弱如何转化为力量，以及疗愈如何在社群中发生，而非孤立无援。

We listen, we learn how vulnerability becomes strength, and how healing happens in community, not in isolation.

如果你准备好放下不再服务于你的东西，带着清晰、慈悲和目标迎接新的一年。

If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose.

《神圣课程》是你疗愈之旅的伙伴。

Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey.

收听迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，就在美国排名第一的播客平台iHeart。

Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rocha on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

关注迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，立即在免费的iHeartRadio应用上开始收听。

Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rocha and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

这并不会削弱你们之间的化学反应、魔力或联系，反而会加深这种联结。

That doesn't take away from the chemistry or the magic or the connection between you, that enhances the connection.

我同意，我同意。

I agree, I agree.

几年前，我和妻子一直不知道该为对方的生日做些什么，总是搞错，于是我们达成了一项约定：提前三四个月就告诉对方我们希望怎么过生日。

A few years ago, me and my wife after never knowing what to do for each other's birthdays and always getting it wrong, we set that pact with each other where we're like, we're just going to tell each other three to four months in advance what we'd like to do for our birthdays.

她生日在七月，刚过去两天；我的生日在九月，我们只是简单地说好，直接告诉对方想要什么、想办什么样的派对、想要什么。

Her birthday is in July, it just actually went two days ago and then my birthday is in September and we're just like, we're just gonna tell each other what we want, what kind of party we want, what we want.

今年她一直在考虑要做什么。

So this year she was thinking about doing something.

她说：我就想要这个。

She was like, I want this.

然后她说：不，其实我只想什么也不做。

And then she's like, no, actually I just want to do nothing.

多年来，我总是搞些盛大的庆祝，因为我喜欢隆重的场面，后来我才意识到，我其实是在给她办我想要的生日派对。

And she's generally, over the years, I always did extravagant things because I like extravagant things and realized I was giving her the birthday party I wanted.

是的。

Yes.

而她也在给我办她想要的生日派对。

And she was giving me the birthday party she wanted.

所以我们就开始直接告诉对方我们想要什么。

And so that's what we just started telling each other.

她对我说：我就想简单地做点什么。

And so she said to me, she was like, I just want to do something really small.

我们就是这样做的。

That's what we did.

那太美了。

It was beautiful.

然后她问我，你想要什么？

And then she was telling me, what do you want?

我说，我就想和你单独做点什么。

I was like, I just want to do something with just me and you.

我说，不管是什么，只要只是我和你，我都愿意。

I was like, whatever it is, as long as it's just me and you, I'm open to it.

我觉得，不再需要活在那种焦虑和期待中——他们理解我吗？

And I think it's become so much more fun being able to not have to live in this anxiety and anticipation of do they understand me?

我暗示得够多了吗？

Have I dropped enough hints?

他们懂那份默契吗？然后感到失望，甚至觉得他们全懂了，但哦，那是因为我早就把所有线索都给了他们。

Do they get the magic and then feeling disappointed or even feeling like they got it all, but, oh, it's because I gave them all the notes anyway.

所以你说得对，我们因为说出了彼此想要的，而失去了那份神秘感。

And so you're so right that we've removed the magic because we've shared what we want.

对。

Right.

你刚才说的这一点真有意思，就是如果我直接把要求告诉他们，这件事就不再特别了。

And it's so funny what you said, this whole thing about if I give them the notes, that somehow it's not special anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

相比之下，这个人花了时间去理解我真正想要什么，并让我的一天变成了我期望的神奇一天。

As opposed to this person took the time to understand exactly what I want and to make my day the magical day that I want it to be.

我认为，我们常常觉得寻求帮助、告诉别人我们真正需要什么，或者提出请求，是一种软弱的表现。

I think it comes with so many things that we think asking for help, or telling people what we actually need, or having a request is a weakness.

我们把它看作是关系薄弱的标志，但实际上，这恰恰是自我认知成熟和关系稳固的体现——你有能力表达自己的愿望、需求和兴趣，而对方也有能力理解并付诸行动。

We see it as a sign of a weak relationship, when actually it's the sign of strong self awareness and a strong relationship that you have the ability to share your desires, your needs, your interests, and the other person has the ability to comprehend and take action on them.

这才是真正健康持久的关系。

That is actually a healthy long term relationship.

是的，我希望这场对话能鼓励人们：如果你正在一段关系中，哪怕才刚开始，也尽早养成这些好习惯，而不是浪费三到五年的时间，不断犯错、带着包袱，最后才慢慢明白。

And yeah, I hope that this conversation can encourage people if you're in a relationship, even if you're starting out in one, these are great habits to set early on rather than wasting three to five years making mistakes trying to figure it out, carrying that baggage and then figuring it out.

没错，尽早设定界限非常重要，因为关系就像水泥。

Right and the setting the early on is the really important part because relationships are like cement.

在一开始，每个人都会努力展现自己最好的一面。

If you, it'll be in the beginning, everyone's trying to be the ambassador of themselves.

所以他们会想，哦，我不希望提太多要求，或者这个人总是迟到，但我以后再处理吧。

So they think, Oh, I don't want to ask for too much or I didn't really like that the person's always late, but I'll deal with that later.

但这其实让你很沮丧。

But it really frustrates you.

于是，到了关系六个月或一年后，你突然爆发，说：你怎么总是迟到？

And so then, you know, six months, a year into the relationship, you just blow up and you say, How come you're always late?

我不喜欢你总是迟到。

I don't like that you're always late.

对方却说：以前你从来没在意过啊。

And the person's like, This never bothered you before.

我不明白。

I don't understand.

好的，谢谢你告诉我。

Okay, thank you for telling me.

但到那时你已经非常生气了。

But you're so upset about it at that point.

或者对方没有在承诺的时候打电话，或者其他类似的事情。

Or the person doesn't call when they say they will or whatever it is.

这非常重要，因为现在水泥已经干了，你不得不拿出碎石机把水泥撬起来。

It's really important because now the cement is dried and now you have to, you know, get a get a jackhammer out there and bring up the cement.

如果在水泥还没干的时候就处理，比如在前几次之后，你可以说：‘你迟到了，我觉得你并不重视我们约定的时间，或者不重视我。’

If you do it when the cement is wet and you say, you know, after the first couple times, you know what, when you're late, I feel like you don't prioritize us getting together at this time or you don't prioritize me.

如果你能准时到，我会非常感激。

I would really appreciate it if you could come on time.

现在你可以看到，当水泥正在干的时候，这个人会不会对这种反馈做出回应？

And now you get to see as the cement is drying, can this person respond to that?

对吧？

Right?

这一点非常重要，因为如果他们永远无法对此做出回应，你为什么还要花这么长时间和这个人在一起呢？

And that's really important to know because why do you want to spend a long time with this person if they're never going to be able to respond to it?

或者，你为什么要在这么长时间里一直感到沮丧？你本可以早点告诉他们，但现在这个人已经习惯了迟到，他们根本不知道这是个问题，要改变这种模式需要很长时间。

Or why do you want to be frustrated for all this time, when you could have just told them early on, and now this person is used to being late, they don't know it's a problem, it's going to take a while for them to reverse their pattern.

但如果他们从一开始就明白这很重要，他们就会改变，或者不会。

Whereas if they know in the beginning, this is really important, they're going to reverse their pattern, or they're not.

这对你是很有用的信息。

And that's good information for you.

完全对，我觉得我们之所以在一开始或早期阶段不说出来，很大程度上是因为我们想给对方一些宽容。

And totally, I feel like a lot of the reason why we don't say something in the beginning or in the early stages is either we want to give the other person grace.

我们不想因为给出反馈而被讨厌，我们希望被喜欢。

We don't want to be disliked for giving feedback and we want to be liked.

这可能是出于好意，希望他们会改变，希望他们会注意到。

It can be well intentioned of maybe they'll change, maybe they'll notice.

但正如你所说，我们实际上只是让问题对我们来说变得越来越大。

But actually, as you said, all we're doing is the problem's getting bigger and bigger and bigger for us.

对那个人来说，这个问题变得越来越小了。

It's becoming less and less big for that individual.

因此，当你向这个人提出这个问题时，你们之间的距离已经如此遥远，因为他们已经开始轻视守时，因为你似乎并不在意。

And so now the distance between you and that person when you share that problem is so far and wide because they've started to devalue being on time because you don't seem to care.

而你却开始过度重视守时。

And you've started overvalue being on time.

于是你们现在站在了两个极端，彼此完全无法沟通，因为你们的距离太远了。

And so now you're at two opposite ends of the spectrum and now you can't hear each other because you're so far away from each other.

我觉得这非常有意思：当你试图回避问题时，对方却越来越无意识，而你们之间的距离却越来越远。

And I find that so interesting that when you try to avoid problems and the other person becomes more and more unaware, you just become further apart.

于是当你终于提出问题时，他们根本听不进去，因为你们已经相距太远了。

So that then when you raise the problem, they can't hear you because you're so far away from each other.

没错，因为这样一来，问题就变成了指责。

Right, because then it becomes blame.

所以如果你一开始就说：‘你迟到的时候，我觉得你并没有把我放在心上。’

So if at the beginning you say, you know, when you come late, I feel like you're not prioritizing me.

那个人可能会因为你平静地说了，而回应说，哦，其实原因是我真的很重视你。

That person might because you said it calmly, that person might say, Oh, well, the reason is, I really was prioritizing you.

我知道你喜欢早点吃饭。

I know you like to eat early.

所以我一直努力为你提前下班，但我发现这样行不通。

So I was trying to leave work early for you, but I see that that's not working.

那我们该怎么办呢？因为你喜欢早点吃饭，而我在那个时间很难下班。

So what can we do because you like to eat early, it's hard for me to leave work at that time.

所以我同意了，但我却从不守时。

So I agree to it, but then I'm never on time.

然后你们就有了一个可以共同解决的问题。

And then you've got a problem you can work through together.

也许从现在开始我们可以把见面时间推迟半小时。

Maybe we can just meet half an hour later from now on.

现在你们俩都满意了。

And now you're both happy.

是的

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

但如果你后来才做，这就像是你从不为我提早下班。

But if you do it later, it's kind of like, well, you never leave work for me.

嗯，我根本不知道我是在为你提早下班，结果这就变成了一场争吵。

Well, I didn't know I was leaving early for you know, it just becomes a fight.

是的，我希望我所听到的——我每次在辅导客户、和朋友交谈或与我们的社群交流时都会想到这一点——是希望并祈愿每一位听众都能更多地关注人们决策和选择背后的背景，而不是孤立地看待选择本身。

Yeah, I wish what I'm hearing is and I think about this all the time when I'm working with coaching clients or talking to friends or our community is just, I wish and hope for everyone listening that we could be more curious about the context of people's decisions and choices rather than just the choice or decision in isolation.

所以我们看到有人迟到，就只是觉得他迟到了，而忽略了你刚刚如此生动地描述的背景，那可能包括我无法提早下班，或者其他任何原因。

So we see someone being late as they're just late rather than the context, which you just so beautifully described, which could be anything from I can't leave work early through to whatever else it may be.

我们几乎把它们当作借口，而不是背景。

And it's almost like we see those as excuses rather than as context.

对。

Yes.

如果我们开始认识到，你所看到的每个人都有完整的关系史、经历和背景，而你与人相处的任务就是去研究、发现并理解这些点是如何连接、如何交织的。

If we start recognizing that every person you're looking at has a whole history of relationships and experiences and background and your job in order to be with someone is to research that and to discover that and understand how those points connect and dots connect.

然后，你突然看到的就不是一个简单的‘迟到是因为不尊重我’的人，而是一个有复杂性、有层次的真实人类。

And then all of a sudden, you're looking at a real human being who has complexities and has layers, as opposed to this idea of they chose to be late because disrespected me.

对。

Right.

这可能根本就不是关于你的。

When it's not really about you potentially.

对。

Right.

你认为他们懒惰、不尊重人。

You see it as they're lazy, they're disrespectful.

而我们没有意识到，我们往往以为自己的视角就是整个故事的全部。

And we don't realize, we don't think we like we our context becomes the whole story.

我一直说，我们都是不可靠的叙述者，因为我们都是透过自己独特的视角来讲故事的。

You know, I always say we're unreliable narrators because we're telling the story through our particular lens.

但我们不会对治疗中的当事人说：如果对方在这里，他们讲述这个故事的版本会是什么？

But we're not saying I will say to people in therapy, if the other person were here, and they were telling their version of this story, what would it be?

一瞬间，这个故事变得广阔得多。

And all of a sudden, the story becomes so much more expansive.

这里涉及背景。

There's the context.

这让人不再是反派，而是哦，我开始理解了。

And that makes the person not a villain, but, oh, I feel I understand that.

我能看出我对他们做出这个决定的原因产生了同情，或者至少我理解了他们为什么做出这个决定。

I can see I have compassion, in fact, for why they made that decision, or at least I understand why they made that decision.

洛里，你所说的很多内容我都同意，我也想分享的是承担责任、主动担当的这种意识。

A lot of what Lori you're saying and I agree with and I also am sharing is this sense of taking accountability, taking responsibility.

但很多时候，社交媒体上的大量心理治疗话语让我们感觉总是受害者，而别人全是问题所在。

But a lot of the time, a lot of therapy speak on social media, especially has made it feel like we're always the victim and everyone else is the problem.

因此，当我们使用像‘煤气灯效应’、‘设定界限’之类的词汇时，这些语言往往让我们觉得‘我才是完美的’。

So when we use words like gaslighting and, know, boundary setting and whatever else it may be, a lot of that language starts to make it feel like, well, I'm perfect.

而另一个人才是问题所在，但你其实——我完全同意你的观点。

And the other person was the issue, but you're actually, you know, and I'm totally with you on that.

我们正在扭转这种观念，转而认真思考如何以不同的方式看待问题，以及如何改变自己的行为。

We're flipping that and going, well, no, let's really look at how we can look at things differently and how we can change how we behave.

你能跟我详细说说这种平衡吗？你是如何鼓励人们理解这两方面的？因为那句老话说得对，你知道的，一个巴掌拍不响，事情总是需要双方参与的，但我们却总想非此即彼。

Walk me through that balance and how you encourage people to make sense of both because it's the saying is as old as it goes, like, you know, it takes two to tango, it takes two like, you know, it's always going to take two and so, but we try and make it that it has to be one or the other.

那么，我们该如何以健康的方式平衡并调和这一点呢？

So how we balance that reconcile that in a healthy way?

是的，你知道，我很高兴看到人们在社交媒体上越来越多地谈论心理健康。

Yeah, you know, I think it's great that people are talking more about mental health on social media.

让我完全抓狂的是，人们如何使用‘界限’、‘精神操控’、‘自恋’这类词汇。

What drives me absolutely bananas is how people use words like we were saying boundaries, gaslighting, narcissism.

如果你看社交媒体，你会觉得百分之八十的人都有自恋倾向。

If you looked at social media, you'd think like eighty percent of the population are narcissists.

对。

Yes.

百分之八十的人口正在被精神操控。

Eighty percent of the population is being gaslit.

百分之八十的人口没有人会尊重他们的界限。

80% of the population has no one who will respect their boundaries.

因此，这些术语被误用了。

And so these terms are being misused.

结果就是，你失去了讨论的核心——我们所有人关系中都在跳一支舞。

And what happens is, you lose the fact of what you're talking about, which is that we're all doing a dance in a relationship.

有一支舞正在上演。

There's a dance going on.

如果你改变了舞步，对方要么也得改变舞步，否则就无法和你共舞，要么就直接退出舞池。

And if you change your dance steps, the other person either has to change their dance steps too because they can't dance with you otherwise or they'll just get off the dance floor.

这个观点真好。

That's really good to know.

所以我们从不思考：我能否改变自己的舞步？

So we don't think about what dance steps can I change?

我们想的是，哦，他们做了这个，就这样了。

We think, Oh, they did this, that's it.

而且他们还在错误地给人贴标签。

And they're mislabeling people.

如果一个人没有察觉到你的需求，或者总是谈论自己，并不代表他们就是自恋者。

Someone is not a narcissist if they didn't see what your need was, or they talk a lot about themselves.

这种情况的发生是有原因的。

There's a reason that that's happening.

你需要对此保持好奇心。

You need to be curious about that.

自恋型人格障碍非常罕见。

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is very rare.

所以并非所有人都是自恋者。

So not everybody is a narcissist.

煤气灯效应。

Gaslighting.

操纵现实不是指你和我有不同意见。

Gaslighting is not I have a different opinion from you.

操纵现实是指让人因为自己的感受而觉得自己疯了。

Gaslighting is making someone feel like they're crazy for feeling how they're feeling.

这两者是完全不同的。

Those are very different things.

所以，一个人对同一经历可以有不同感受。

So someone can feel differently about the same experience.

这种情况在情侣之间经常发生。

This happens with couples all the time.

他们并没有在操纵对方的现实。

They're not gaslighting each other.

他们只是对同一经历有不同的感受。

They have different feelings about the same experience.

这并不是操纵现实。

They're not this is not gaslighting.

但社交媒体上的人会说：‘我明明表达了我对这段经历的感受。’

But people on social media will say, Well, I said that I felt this about this experience.

我的伴侣不同意我的感受，所以我被精神操控了。

I'm being gaslit because my partner doesn't agree with my feelings.

你不需要同意，也不需要有同样的感受。

You don't have to agree, you don't have to have the same feelings.

你只需要注意到对方有这些感受，而你可能有不同的感受。

You can just notice that the person has those feelings, and that you might have different feelings.

这没关系。

That's okay.

所以我认为这一点很重要：界限就是一个很好的例子。

So what I think is important about this is that boundaries is a really great example of this.

人们说：‘这个人不怎么样，我们必须设立非常严格的界限。’

People say, this person doesn't, we have to set these very rigid boundaries.

但界限是你为自己设定的东西。

Well, a boundary is something you set with yourself.

所以，界限是你对他人提出的一个请求。

So a boundary is a request that you make to somebody else.

这就是为什么我们在社交媒体上看到这么多人说：我要和这个人断绝来往。

And this is why we see so many people say on social media, I'm going to cut this person off.

每个人都说：太好了，断绝关系吧。

And everyone says, great, cut them off.

他们很糟糕。

They're terrible.

因为他们没有尊重你的界限。

Because they didn't respect your boundary.

他们根本无法尊重你的界限。

They can't respect your boundaries.

你有没有给他们机会去尊重你的界限？你有没有尊重自己的界限？

Did you give them an opportunity to respect your boundaries and did you respect your own boundary?

举个例子，假设你妈妈总是问你什么时候谈恋爱，对吧？

So an example might be, let's say that your mother is always asking about when you're going to be in a relationship, right?

你目前在约会吗？

And are you dating anyone?

发生什么事了？

What's happening?

这完全破坏了你们共度的时光。

And that just ruined your time together.

你可以说：妈妈，如果我生活中有了重要的人，我会告诉你的。

You can say, You know what mom, I will let you know if there's someone important in my life.

但与此同时，当你不断追问我知道让我非常有压力的事情时，我真的很难以和你相处。

But in the meantime, it really makes it hard to be around you when you're asking about something that you know is very stressful for me.

所以如果你再问起这件事，我会结束这次探访，或者挂断电话。

So if you ask about that, I'm going to end the visit or I'm going to end the phone call.

非常平静地。

Very calm.

好的。

Okay.

所以下次你和妈妈见面时，她前半小时还好好的，然后就会说：‘对了，你有在约会谁吗？’

So then next time you get together with your mom, she's really good for the first half hour and then she's like, Oh, and is there anyone that you're dating?

妈妈，记得啊，每当提到这个话题，我都很难受。

Mom, remember, I don't have a good time with you when that comes up.

我会离开，但我真的很期待下次能和你聚一聚，聊点别的事情。

I'm going to leave, but I really look forward to getting together with you another time when we can talk about something else.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

我真的很抱歉。

I'm so sorry.

我真的很抱歉。

I'm so sorry.

不是，妈妈。

No, mom.

我会离开，但下次再说。

I'm going to leave, but next time.

对吧？

Right?

下次你妈妈可能记起来了，但要过一个小时后。

Next time your mom maybe she remembers and it's like an hour later.

然后她会说，哦，你是不是哦，抱歉，抱歉，抱歉。

And she's like, Oh, but are you Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

哦，妈妈，真好。

Oh, mom, great.

我现在要走了。

I'm going to go now.

对吧？

Right?

于是你就会意识到，这个人能尊重你的界限吗？

And so you realize like, is this person able to respect your boundary?

但最重要的是，你尊重了你自己的界限。

But the main thing is you respected yours.

你说过，如果你问这个问题，我就要走了。

You said, I'm going to leave if you ask that question.

然后随着时间推移，你必须保持一致。

And then over time, and you have to be consistent.

如果有时候你说，没关系，妈妈。

If sometimes you say, Oh, it's okay, mom.

我明白。

I understand.

不行。

No.

因为她会一直这样做的。

Because she's just gonna keep doing it.

所以如果你对自己保持一致，就必须坚守自己的界限。

So if you're consistent with yourself, you have to keep your own boundary.

这并不是她的错。

This isn't her fault.

这关乎你自身。

This is about you.

如果你不够重视自己的界限，不每次都坚持，那就是你的问题。

And if you are not going to value your boundary enough to keep it every time, that's on you.

所以如果你一直这样，你妈妈最终可能会停止，因为她知道她想和你聊天或一起外出，她可能会不再问你这件事。

And so if you keep doing that and your mom eventually probably will stop because she knows that she wants to have a conversation with you or have an outing with you, she'll probably stop asking you about it.

但如果她没有停止，你就明白了，她做不到这一点。

But if she doesn't, you've learned that she cannot do that.

所以我会坚持自己的界限，也许我会减少和她见面的次数，或者每次她提起这件事，我依然会离开。

So I'm going to keep with my boundary and maybe I'm going to get together with her less or I'm still going to leave every time she brings that up.

对吧？

Right?

所以这取决于你会怎么做。

So it's about what you're going to do.

所以并不是说，没人能帮你守住界限。

So it's not that you know, nobody can keep your boundaries.

关键在于，我提出了我认为合理的观点，然后看看对方能做到什么程度。

It's about I've said something that I think is reasonable, and I'm gonna see what the other person is capable of.

所以当人们说我要和这个人断绝来往时。

And so when people say I'm going to be I'm gonna cut this person off.

那你真的会这么做吗？

Well, are you?

真的吗？

Really?

你能不能设立一个对你有效的界限，这样你就能保留关系中好的部分，而避开那些有问题的部分？

Like, you know, or can you set a boundary that works for you so that you can have the good parts of the relationship and not the parts that are problematic?

我们要这样想：人们很可能会一再突破你的界限。

The way we have to think about it is that people are probably going to keep breaking your boundaries.

你会继续留在这种状况中吗？

Are you going to keep them in that situation, right?

情况就是这样的。

That's what's happening there.

这就像为你自己设立的界限，用来保护你。

It's like a boundary set for you to protect you from yourself.

是的。

Yes.

避免陷入你无法控制的情境中。

From giving in to a scenario in a situation which you can't control.

但我们往往认为界限是一种别人必须遵守的命令或法则。

But we think a boundary is almost an order or a law that other people have to follow.

但事实上，你无法控制他们。

And the truth is you can't control them.

他们会按照自己的方式行事。

Like they're going to act how they're going to act.

你必须设立一个界限，清楚自己该如何行为和应对。

And you've got to set a boundary where you know how to behave and you know how to act.

很高兴你谈到关于治疗师对话如何健康的问题。

I'm so glad that you talked about your feelings around how therapy speakers is healthy.

人们有必要就某些词语在网络上的误用和曲解展开讨论，因为我确实认为，这正造成了你所说的那种文化——让我们觉得每一个遇到的人都是自恋者，因为每个人身上都有一点自恋的成分，或者每一个遇到的人都是煤气灯操纵者。

It's important for people to have these conversations about how certain words are being misused and bent online because I do think that it creates exactly what you said, a culture where we think that everyone we meet is a narcissist because everyone has 1% of narcissist in them or everyone we meet is a gaslighter.

这开始形成一种关于我们周围人的非常不健康的世界观。

And it starts to create a really unhealthy belief system around who we're around.

我最近看了一部电影。

I watched this movie recently.

这部电影在烂番茄上的评分不高，但我是在飞机上看到的，出于好奇就看了。

I didn't get great ratings on Rotten Tomatoes, but I saw it on a plane and I watched it out of intrigue.

它叫《猫人》。

It's called Cat Person.

这部电影基于一种‘网络钓鱼’的元素。

And it's based on this element of catfishing.

它是一部讽刺 parody 风格的惊悚片，探讨了现代约会中的种种挑战，但这些挑战大多其实存在于我们的脑海中，却又可能演变为现实。

It's a kind of like a satire parody thriller of the challenges of modern dating, but how so much of those challenges are in our head, but how they can transform into reality.

如果还没看过的话，这是一部适合在飞机上、或和朋友一起某个晚上随便看看的有趣电影。

And if anyone hasn't watched it, it's a fun one time watch on a plane or, you know, one night with a friend or whatever it may be.

但我欣赏它的一点是，它探讨了这样一个观点：由于我们被训练去留意那些细微线索，我们开始把别人看得比他们实际更疯狂或更偏执，这样说你能理解吗？

But what I appreciated about it is it talked about this idea of how we kind of start viewing people as more crazy or psychotic than they might be because of these little clues that we've been trained to look out for if that makes sense.

是的，我们确实如此。

Yes and we do.

我们看到别人做一些非常人性的事情，却把它们贴上疯狂的标签。

We look at other people as they're doing things that are very human and we label that crazy.

当我们自己这么做时，我们会说：哦，但我是有原因的，这里就是理由。

When we do it, we say, Oh, but there's a reason and here's why.

我不疯狂。

I'm not crazy.

我有背景信息，就像你所说的。

I had context like you said.

我们却不给他们这些背景信息。

We don't give them the context.

不过我这里说的不是虐待行为。

Now I'm not talking about abusive behavior.

但我指的是那些我们明明会直接说‘这不可接受’的事情。

But I'm talking about the things that we will literally say, Oh, that's unacceptable.

却从不问一句：等等，为什么现在会发生这种情况？

Without saying, Wait a minute, why is this happening right now?

顺便说一句，我们所有的行为都是出于渴望被爱。

All of our behavior by the way is motivated by we want to be loved.

我们确实如此，只是有时候以一种让人不想爱我们的方法去表达。

We really do and sometimes we do it in a way that makes people not want to love us.

而我们并没有意识到，正是我们的行为在把人推远。

And we don't realize that we're pushing people away with our behavior.

但本质上，我们这么做是因为我们希望被喜欢。

But at the core, we are doing it because we want to be liked.

我们渴望被爱。

We want to be loved.

所以，这个人做出这么奇怪的行为，是因为他是个糟糕的人，还是因为他和我一样是普通人，内心非常脆弱，而他的行为并不能反映他真正的愿望？

So is this person doing this very strange thing because they're a horrible person or because they're human like me and at their core, they're very vulnerable and they don't their behavior doesn't reflect the wish.

内心的愿望是我希望你喜欢我，或者我希望保护自己不被伤害。

The wish is I want you to like me or I want to protect myself from being hurt.

但这种行为是不可接受的。

The behavior is not okay.

这就像你对小孩子说的，生气没关系，但打人就不行。

It's kind of like when you say to little kids, it's okay to be angry, it's not okay to hit someone.

对吧？

Right?

那么，作为成年人，对应的道理是什么？

So what is that equivalent as an adult?

感受情绪是可以的，但我们该如何处理它？

It's okay to feel the feeling, but what do we do with it?

我们能否理解那个人为什么会有这样的行为？

And can we understand why that person is acting that way?

我们能否理解背后的背景？

Can we understand the context?

当然，当然。

Absolutely, absolutely.

这种情形演变成一个更大的问题，我们的社区对此有很多疑问，那就是：一个人该在什么时候对另一个人施加多大的压力，才能促使对方求婚或结婚？

One of the ways that that kind of transpires into a bigger moment that our community had a lot of questions around was what's the right amount of pressure for someone to get married or propose to you?

因为我觉得人们会到达这样一个阶段：他们觉得我们已经投入了这么多时间，我们在一起，关系稳定，但对方就是不求婚，不打算，你知道，他们并不想结婚，不管是什么情况。

Because I think people get to this point where they feel like we've invested so much time, we're together, we're here, but this person is just not proposing, they're not getting, they don't, you know, they don't want get married, whatever it may be.

这最终会演变成一种最后通牒，甚至现在还有一档电视节目就叫《最后通牒》，讲的就是人们在人生这一阶段所面对的问题。

And that gets to this point of this ultimatum of like, and now there's even a TV show called the ultimatum, which is all about people dealing with that period in their life.

那么，在这种情况下，当一个人觉得关系有很好的承诺基础，正在向前发展，但对方却没有任何兴奋、热情，甚至没有采取任何行动将关系推向下一步时，他们该怎么办？

So what does someone do in that scenario where they feel there's good commitment, we're getting somewhere but the other person isn't showing this excitement, enthusiasm or even taking action on taking this relationship to the next level?

这就像是生日派对的事情，你总觉得对方应该心领神会，但我们却从不沟通。

This is like that birthday party thing where you feel like you know the other person should just know, but we're not communicating about it.

我觉得，人们在求婚发生之前，居然从不讨论是否想结婚，这简直令人难以置信。

The fact that people don't talk about whether they want to get married before a proposal happens is insane to me.

这仅仅

It just

很高兴你提到了这一点。

I'm glad you said it.

这完全说不通，求婚居然还不能是完全的惊喜。

It makes no sense that it shouldn't be a total surprise.

你们双方应该早就达成共识，你也应该知道对方一定会答应。

You should know that you are both on the same page and you should know that the other person is definitely going to say yes.

你们已经讨论过这件事了。

That you've talked about this.

有很多人来找我做婚前咨询，因为他们知道自己想结婚，甚至可能根本没什么问题。

So many people come to me for premarital therapy where they can talk about because they know they want to get married and maybe they want to they're not even having any problems.

他们只是想聊聊双方的家庭，如何融合两个家庭、公婆、兄弟姐妹，或者这个人和那种性格，又或者想谈谈钱的问题，是否想要孩子、要几个、怎么安排，或者如何平衡事业，想聊聊性生活，以及所有那些结婚前难以启齿却极其重要的事情。他们现在可能还没有答案，但正在学习如何讨论这些棘手的话题。

They just want to talk about their families and how they're going to blend their families and the in laws and the siblings and you know, this person and this personality or they want to talk about money or they want to talk about whether they want to have kids and how many and how that might work or they want to talk about balancing their careers, want to talk about sex and all the different things that might be hard to talk about before you get married that are so important and they might not have the answers right now, but they're learning how to talk about these challenging topics.

人们会说：‘你们还没结婚就在做心理咨询？’

And people say, Oh, you're in therapy and you're not even married yet.

肯定出什么大问题了。

Something must be terribly wrong.

不，恰恰说明一切都很对劲。

It's like, No, something's terribly right.

所以，当人们说：我真的很希望这个人向我求婚，但我搞不懂为什么他还不行动。

And so the fact that people are saying like, I really want this person to propose, but I don't understand why they're not.

而他们觉得自己无法开口问，这就意味着你还没有准备好和这个人结婚。

And they don't feel like they can ask the person means you are not ready to marry that person.

如果你觉得无法开口问：我们现在的状况如何？

If you don't feel like you can bring this up and say, Where are we?

我们已经在一起这么久了。

We've been together for this amount of time.

我有这种感觉。

I'm feeling this.

我想知道你对这件事是怎么想的。

I'm wondering where you are with this.

而从对方那里，你能获得大量信息。

And the person you'll get so much information from.

我确实想和你结婚。

I do want to marry you.

但因为这件事，我现在还没准备好，不过我觉得六个月后我会准备好。

I don't feel ready yet because of this, but I think I will feel ready in six months.

对吧？

Right?

然后你就有了选择。

And then you have a choice.

你是想等那个时候，还是不想等？

Do you want to wait for that or do you not want to wait for that?

或者永远不。

Or never.

他们可能会说，对。

They may say Right.

或者他们可能会说，其实我对结婚没什么把握。

Or they might say, actually, I don't know how I feel about getting married.

我不确定我是否会改变主意。

I don't know if I'm going to come around to that.

关于你打算如何处理这件事，你有选择权。

You have a choice about what you want to do with that.

你知道的，哦，我之前没意识到，我以为我确实想结婚，但现在我不那么确定了。

I you know, oh, I didn't realize that I thought I did want to get married but now I'm not so sure.

知道这一点非常重要。

Well, that's really important to know.

为什么？

Why?

我们之间发生了什么？

What's happening between us?

所以，这样的对话如此重要，还是你只想坐在那里和朋友合计，想着怎么暗示，或者分析对方的行为——因为对方做了这件事，这到底意味着什么？

So that conversation is so important or do you just want to sit there scheming with your friends about how you can drop hints or how you can like analyze the behavior because the person did this and what does that mean?

这听起来不像是你想要的婚姻。

That doesn't sound like the kind of marriage you want to be in.

你不想进入一种可以对对方说‘这是我真正想要的’的婚姻吗？

Don't you want to be in the kind of marriage where you can say to the person, hey, this is what I'm desiring.

这是我真正渴望的。

This is what I'm wanting.

你对这件事现在是什么想法？

Where are you with this?

如果这是一次如此基本的对话。

If that's such a basic conversation.

新年并不意味着抹去过去的你。

A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were.

它意味着尊重你所经历的苦难，并选择你希望如何成长。

It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow.

它意味着允许自己感受那些一直压抑的情绪，并知道寻求帮助是完全可以的。

It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help.

我是迈克·德拉罗查，《神圣课程》的主持人。

I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons.

这个播客为男性提供了一个开放讨论心理健康、哀伤、人际关系以及我们继承却不必重复的模式的空间。

This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat.

在这里，我们放慢脚步，认真倾听，学习脆弱如何转化为力量，以及疗愈如何在社群中发生，而非孤立进行。

Here, we slow down, we listen, we learn how vulnerability becomes strength, and how healing happens in community, not in isolation.

如果你准备好放下不再服务于你的东西，带着清晰、慈悲和目标迎接新的一年，那么《神圣课程》将成为你疗愈之旅的伙伴。

If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey.

收听迈克·德拉罗查主持的《神圣课程》，它在全美排名第一的播客网络iHeart播出。

Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rocha on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

关注迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，今天就开始在免费的iHeartRadio应用上收听吧。

Follow Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rocha and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

但这种做法比最后通牒健康得多，因为我觉得我们又回到了之前讨论过的内容。

But that's so much healthier than an ultimatum too because I think we also get again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier.

你从未进行过定期的沟通检查。

You haven't given that regular check-in.

对。

Right.

你一直没有保持联系。

You haven't touched base.

你其实并不清楚那个人对婚姻或其他事情的信念体系是怎样的。

You don't really know what that person's belief system is around marriage or whatever else it may be.

突然间，这件事在你心中累积成了一个巨大的问题。

And all of a sudden it's built up for you as this big thing.

然后你现在就说，好吧，要么你娶我，要么我们就分手。

And now you're like, okay, well either you marry me or we're over.

而且这对那个人来说也不舒服，因为他们现在感觉是被迫做出选择，而不是被问及‘你对这件事感觉如何？’

And then that's not comfortable for that person either because now they feel they're forced into a choice as opposed to a sense of how do you feel about this?

你对这件事有什么想法？

And what are your thoughts about this?

这又回到了我们非常害怕显得唠叨的问题上。

Again, it comes back to we're so scared of appearing to be naggy.

我们非常害怕显得过于高要求。

We're so scared of appearing to be high maintenance.

我们太害怕显得自己需求过多、绝望或类似的样子。

We're so scared of appearing to be the one who's needy or desperate or whatever it may be.

但我们其实正感受到所有这些情绪，因为我们没有去思考如何跨越这个障碍。

But we are feeling all of those things because we're not checking how do we get over this hurdle.

顺便说一句，你在这两种情况下都经历过。

And by the way, you experienced it in both.

很多人几年都不和伴侣分手，因为他们不想被看作坏人。

Like a lot of people don't break up with people for years because they don't want to be seen as the bad person.

我接触过很多人，他们都说：‘如果我和她分手，如果我和他们分手，如果我和他分手，天啊，他一定会恨我，我会成为最糟糕的那个人。’

The amount of people I've spoken to who are like, oh, if I break up with her, if I break up with them, if I break up with him, oh my God, he's just going to hate me and I'm going to be the worst.

我不愿意这样对他们。

And I just don't want to do that to them.

他们是个好人。

They're a nice person.

但其实我们真正想说的是：我只是不想被讨厌，我想被人喜欢。

But really all we're saying is I just don't want to, I want to be liked.

是的

Yeah.

在两种情况下，无论是我不想催促他们向我求婚，还是我不想和他们分手，都是因为我怕他们对我有负面看法。

In both scenarios, whether it's I don't want to nag them to marry me and propose, I don't want to break up with them because I don't want them to see me negatively.

我们该如何克服这种障碍，意识到我们之所以推迟对自己最有利的决定或对话，只是因为想在一段无法掌控的关系中被喜欢？这样说你能明白吗？

How do we get over that hurdle of recognizing that we're putting off the best decision for us or conversation because we want to be liked in a space that we can't Does that make sense?

你明白我想表达的意思吗？

Know what I'm trying to say?

对，对。

Right, right.

这就像当父母，如果你给孩子设定了界限，他们那一刻可能不喜欢你，但你其实是在做一件充满爱的事。

Well, it's like a parent, like if you set a boundary with your child, they might not like you in that moment, but you're doing something loving.

所以，如果你和一个你明确知道不想继续在一起的人分手，你其实也是在做一件充满爱的事。

And so if you break up with someone that you know you don't want to be with, you're doing something loving.

因此，我认为我们需要重新定义我们真正所做的事情。

So I I think that we need to reframe what we're actually doing.

你维持一段关系并吊着对方的行为实际上是很残忍的。

What you're doing by staying in a relationship and and stringing someone along is actually cruel.

而且这是在浪费他们的时间。

And it's wasting their time.

所以你并不是在做好人。

So you're not being nice.

你也不会因此被喜欢。

You're not going to be liked.

但我认为我们之前谈到的另一个重点是，提出这些问题不仅仅关乎求婚，甚至很多人会说，‘哦，你知道，我觉得我约会对象也在和别人约会，我想专一交往，但又担心显得太急切太早。’

But I think the other thing we were talking about bringing things up, it's not just about a proposal, it's even about lots of people will say, Oh, you know, I know I think my other person that I'm dating is also dating other people, I would like to not date other people, but I'm afraid that I'll appear too needy too early.

对吧？

Right?

与其这样，不如坦诚表达你的需求，他们可以接受或拒绝。

As opposed to just being honest about what you want, they can say yes or no.

但要明确说明：你看，我们在约会，如果我知道你现在还在和别人约会，我实在没法感到安心，也无法真正与你亲近，毕竟我们已经花了这么多时间相处。

But to be clear about, look, we're we're dating, I don't feel comfortable with I I can't really feel like I can get close to you if I know that you're dating other people at this point because we're spending a lot of time together.

那你对这件事有什么感受？

So how do you feel about this?

你准备好进入一段专一的关系了吗？

Are you ready to be in an exclusive relationship?

这对你有吸引力吗？

Is that of interest to you?

如果他们说不，太好了，你已经学到了很多。

If they say no, wow, great, you've learned a lot.

你可以做出选择，比如我愿意再这样继续一个月，或者我不愿意，或者其他任何决定。

You can make a choice like I'm comfortable doing this for another month or I'm not or you know, whatever it is.

或者他们可能会说，哦，我不知道这对你这么重要。

Or they can say, Oh, I didn't know that that was important to you.

我也希望如此。

And I would like that too.

那就这么办吧。

Let's do that.