本集简介
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这是iHeart播客《保证人性化》。
This is the iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.
我是杰西·米尔斯医生，《邮局》播客的主持人。
This is doctor Jesse Mills, host of the Mailroom podcast.
每年一月，男性都会承诺变得更强壮、更努力工作，并修复那些破损的东西。
Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken.
但如果真正的努力根本不是身体上的呢？
But what if the real work isn't physical at all?
我与心理学家史蒂夫·波尔特医生坐下来，探讨羞耻、焦虑以及男性从未被教会如何命名的情感痛苦。
I sat down with psychologist doctor Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name.
在绝望谷地的中途，你会意识到事情已经发生，你必须做出选择：是继续留在这里，还是继续前行。
Part of the way through the valley of despair is realizing this has happened, and you have to make a choice whether you're gonna stay in it or move forward.
我们的两部分对话现在可以收听了。
Our two part conversation is available now.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听喜爱节目的任何平台收听《邮局》。
Listen to the mail room on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
你好。
Hi.
我是普里扬卡·瓦利医生。
I'm doctor Priyanka Wally.
我是哈里昆达博卢。
And I'm Harikundabolu.
新的一年到了。
It's a new year.
在播客《健康那些事》中，我们重新思考如何谈论我们的健康。
And on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.
这意味着坦诚面对我们所知道的、不知道的，以及这一切可能有多么混乱。
Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.
我喜欢晚睡晚起。
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
有这样的生物钟类型吗，还是我只是抑郁了？
Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?
《健康那些事》关乎学习、欢笑，以及感到不那么孤单。
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
新的一年并不要求我们变成另一个人。
A new year doesn't ask us to become someone new.
它邀请我们回归真实的自我。
It invites us back home to ourselves.
我是迈克·德拉罗查，《神圣课程》的主持人，这是一个为男性提供停顿、反思与疗愈的空间。
I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons, a space for men to pause, reflect, and heal.
今年，我们将坦诚地探讨心理健康、人际关系，以及我们准备释放的模式。
This year, we're talking honestly about mental health, relationships, and the patterns we're ready to release.
如果你正在寻找清晰、联结，以及更健康地面对生活的途径，《神圣课程》将陪伴你。
If you're looking for clarity, connection, and healthier ways to show up in your life, Sacred Lessons is here for you.
请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》。
Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Delaroach on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我们总觉得必须赢得爱，觉得仅仅存在就不够，必须通过一些外在的标准来证明自己值得被爱。
We feel like we have to earn our love, that we're not enough just to be there, that we have to somehow earn it through these external criteria.
我必须足够有吸引力、足够幽默、足够有趣。
I have to be so attractive and so funny and so entertaining.
当然，你确实需要通过关系来赢得爱。
You do have to earn love by the way, but you earn it by being relational.
我非常兴奋，终于能与大家分享我首次播客巡演的现场访谈。
I'm so excited to finally share the live interviews from my very first podcast tour.
本集内容是我与劳里·戈特利布在华盛顿特区达ar宪法大厅的访谈。
This episode features my interview with Laurie Gottlieb at DAR Constitution Hall in Washington DC.
哇，哇，哇，各位。
Wow, wow, wow, everyone.
今晚能来到华盛顿特区的达ar宪法大厅，与独一无二的劳里·戈特利布同台，我激动不已。
I am so excited to be here tonight at the Dahl Constitution Hall in Washington DC with the one and only Laurie Gottlieb.
大家为劳里鼓掌吧。
Give it up for Laurie, everyone.
劳里过去几年一直是我们亲密的朋友，也是我们‘刻意而为’节目中最受欢迎的嘉宾之一。
Now Laurie has been a dear friend for the last few years and has been one of our most popular on purpose guests.
她至少上过节目三次，只要有可能，我们每年都会请她回来。
She's been on the show at least three times, and we're gonna have her back on every year that she possibly can.
所以劳里，能在这里亲自见面，而不是通常在录音棚里，真的是一种特别的享受。
So Laurie, to do this in person when we're usually in the studio is a real treat.
也非常感谢你专程飞过来。
So thank you so much for flying out as well.
你能来到这里，我感到非常感激。
I'm so grateful that you're here.
哦，能和华盛顿特区这么棒的观众在一起，我真是太开心了。
Oh, I'm so happy to be here with this wonderful crowd in DC.
我太喜欢了。
I love it.
所以我想直接和你深入聊聊，劳里，因为我真的很想走进你的内心世界。
So I want to dive straight in with you, Laurie, because I really want to dive into your mind.
你有太多令人惊叹的见解。
You have so many incredible insights.
今晚我们一直在讨论的一个想法是，担心别人对我们的看法。
And something we've been talking about tonight is this idea of being worried about what people think of us.
而我们最重视的，往往是伴侣对我们的看法。
And the hardest person's perception that we take the most seriously is our partners.
是的。
Yeah.
很多人有时会感觉在关系中像在表演，试图获得认可、关注和爱意。
And a lot of us can sometimes feel we're performing in relationships to try and get that validation, to try and get that attention, to try and get that affection.
为什么我们中有这么多人会有这种感觉？我们该如何应对？
Why do so many of us feel that way and what do we do about it?
这很有趣。
It's interesting.
你知道吗，我认为在一段关系的初期，有个笑话是说你不是你自己，而是你的代言人。
You know, I think in the beginning of a relationship, there's this joke that you're not you, you're the ambassador of you.
所以我们都在努力展现自己最好的一面。
So, you know, we're all trying to put our best foot forward.
我们试图给对方留下好印象。
We're trying to impress the other person.
但我觉得，一旦进入关系，我们每个人内心都有一部分担心自己不值得被爱。
But I think that once we're in the relationship, we all have some part of us that worries that we're not lovable.
也许我们正经历一些困难，或者对自己感觉不太好。
And maybe we're going through something hard or maybe we're not feeling great about ourselves.
而对方可能正经历着顺利的时刻，比如取得了巨大成功，而我们却觉得自己配不上。
The other person is is going through something like they're having great success and we don't feel like we measure up.
所以我认为，我们觉得自己必须去赢得爱。
And so I think what happens is we feel like we have to earn our love.
我们觉得仅仅存在是不够的，必须通过这些外在标准来证明自己值得被爱。
That we're not enough just to be there, that we have to somehow earn it through these external criteria.
比如，我必须足够有魅力、足够幽默、足够有趣，诸如此类的一切。
Like, I have to be so attractive and so funny and so entertaining and, you know, all the things.
而且，顺便说一下，你确实需要通过建立关系来赢得爱。
And what you do have to earn love, by the way, but you earn it by being relational.
人们希望和那些善于建立关系的人维持关系。
So people wanna be in relationships with people who are relational.
他们不希望和那些不会倾听、缺乏情感慷慨的人维持关系，诸如此类的情况。
They don't wanna be in relationships with people who can't listen, aren't emotionally generous, those kinds of things.
但我觉得，当我们想到在关系中表现自己时，这背后是一种信念：如果你不赢得我的爱，我就不会爱你。
But I think that, you know, when we think about performing in a relationship, that has to do with, I don't believe that you will love me if I don't earn your love.
这种信念是我们必须摒弃的。
And that's a belief that we need to get rid of.
我们该怎么做呢？
How do we do that?
我认为，你需要明白，赢得爱并不是那样做的。
Well, I I think you need to understand that that's not the way that you earn love.
正如我所说，赢得爱的方式就是建立关系。
So the way you earn love, as I said, is is being relational.
这并不是我们试图做的那些其他事情，比如我必须看起来这样或成为这样。
It's not about all of these other things that we try to do, like I need to look this way or be this way.
那个人在乎你。
The person cares about you.
他们和你在一起。
They're with you.
所以你需要现身。
So you need to show up.
我认为这正是答案：你如何与某人建立关系？你必须现身。
And I think that that's really the answer is how do you how can you be in a relationship with somebody, you have to show up.
否则，如果你一直陷在自己的思绪里，你就根本不在场。
Otherwise, if you're just in your head the whole time, you're not even there.
我接触的很多人，我相信你们中的许多人也会认同这一点。
So many of the people that I speak to, and I'm sure a lot of you can agree with this.
我认为很多人在关系的某个阶段都会发现，他们的伴侣不愿意敞开心扉，不愿意谈论自己的感受，不习惯展现脆弱，甚至可能更加封闭。
I think a lot of people feel that at one point in their relationship, they find that their partner doesn't want to open up, doesn't want to talk about their feelings, isn't comfortable being vulnerable and may actually be more closed off.
所以我经常发现，在一段关系中，总有一方想要谈论一切。
So I often find in relationship, there's one person who wants to talk about everything.
而另一方则什么都不想谈。
And then the other person doesn't want to talk about anything.
因此，尽管我们都希望建立亲密关系，但常常发现一方并不愿意，无论是因为他们缺乏情感容量，觉得还没准备好，还是根本不敢去思考这些问题。
And so even though we want to be relational, often find that one person doesn't, whether they don't have the emotional capacity, whether they don't feel they're ready, whether they don't even allow themselves to think about these things.
当你身处一段关系中时，该怎么办呢？
What do you do when you're in a relation?
顺便问一下，大家都能感同身受吗？
Can everyone relate to that, by the way?
随便发出点声音吧。
Just make some noise.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Alright.
当你和这样的人在一起时，你会怎么做？
When you're with someone like that, what do you do?
你从哪里开始？
Where do you start?
因为你想要和他们在一起。
Because you wanna be with them.
他们并不愿意建立情感连接。
They're not being relational.
他们不想听你说话。
They don't wanna listen to you.
他们不想谈论自己的生活。
They don't wanna talk about their life.
你该如何应对这种情况？
How do you navigate that?
首先，我认为在关系初期就注意到这一点非常重要。
First of all, I think it's really important that you notice that at the beginning of a relationship.
很多人会说，哦，这个人根本不开口，或者根本不在状态。
So many people will say, you know, oh, this person doesn't really open up or they're not really there.
他们没有对我敞开心扉。
They're not really being vulnerable with me.
但这没关系，因为这种情况迟早会发生的。
But that's okay because that will come.
然后你继续下去，心想好吧，也许以后会好，但还是没有改善。
And then you keep going and you think, okay, well, it it will come later, but it's still not coming.
我们为什么会这样呢？
Why do we do that?
我们为什么会忽视这一点？
Why do we ignore that?
因为这几乎就像归因偏差。
Because it's almost like attribution bias.
你知道，你希望赋予这个人一些他们实际上并不具备的特质。
You know, it's like you want to attribute certain traits to the person that they don't actually have.
所以我在一段关系刚开始时总是说，你要把事情提出来。
And that's why I always say at the beginning of a relationship, you wanna bring things up.
人们之所以害怕这么做，是因为我们刚才说的原因——在关系初期，我们想当自己最好的代言人。
People are afraid to for the reason that we said, you know, we want to be the ambassador of us at the beginning of the relationship.
但事实上，你应当尽早并频繁地把事情提出来。
But actually, you wanna bring things up early and often.
因为关系就像水泥。
And that's because relationships are like cement.
如果你让水泥干了，它就凝固了，于是你就会想，好吧，这以后会变的。
If you let the cement dry, it's and and so you say, okay, this is this will change later.
然后你就得拿出破碎机，把一切重新挖出来。
Then you're gonna have to get out a jackhammer, dig everything up.
对吧？
Right?
这真的非常困难。
It's just it's really hard.
但如果还有空间，你可以对伴侣说：嘿，我感觉很难和你建立联系。
But if there's still room, you can say to your partner, hey, I'm having trouble making contact with you.
发生什么事了？
What's going on?
我们之间的相处方式有什么问题吗？
Is there something about the way that we're relating?
你知道，我真的很想更了解你，但我很难真正理解你内心在想什么。
Why is it, you know, I'm I'm I really wanna get to know you better, but I'm having trouble really understanding what's going on inside.
这其中一部分是与性别相关的。
And some of that is gendered.
明白吗？
Okay?
很多时候，男性会觉得，如果我敞开心扉、展现脆弱，就会被看作软弱，或者被以不同的方式看待。
So some of it is a lot of times men feel like if I open up and be vulnerable then I'm gonna be perceived as weak or I'm gonna be perceived, you know, differently.
而有一部分女性也需要学会为男性提供空间，让他们能够展现脆弱。
And and there's some part of of women that we need to learn to provide space for men to be vulnerable.
因为当我在进行伴侣治疗时，我会发现，如果是男女搭配，女方会对伴侣说：‘我很高兴你在这里。’
Because what happens is when when I'm doing couples therapy, what I'll see is if it happens to be a man and a woman, I will see that the woman will say to her partner, I'm so glad you're here.
我真的很想谈谈我们平时无法沟通的那些事。
I really wanna talk about all this stuff that we can't talk about.
我想让你告诉我，你内心到底在经历什么。
And I want you to tell me what's going on.
我真的很想了解你内心的真实感受。
I wanna really know what's going on inside of you.
然后他开始敞开心扉。
And then he opens up.
接着他可能眼眶湿润了。
And then maybe he tears up.
他可能开始哭泣。
Maybe he starts crying.
而她则说：‘哇哦。’
And she's like, woah.
对吧？
Right?
所以一部分原因是，当你不向我敞开心扉时，我感觉不安全，但奇怪的是，我也说不清为什么，当你哭泣时，我同样感觉不安全。
So part of it is, I don't feel safe when you don't open up to me, but I also, in a weird way, and I can't explain it, I don't feel safe when you're crying either.
因此，我们需要确保为那些不善于表达脆弱的伴侣创造一个可以变得脆弱的空间，我们可以问他们什么会有帮助。
So we need to make sure that we are providing the space for the the partner who's not vulnerable to be vulnerable, we can ask them what would be helpful.
而我们只是不去问这些问题，然后就说，这个人做不到这一点。
And and I think we just don't ask the questions, and then we say, well, this person's not capable of it.
如果你给他们空间，他们可能完全有能力做到。
They might be very capable of it if you give them the space.
我们都在寻找那种安全感。
We're all looking for that safety.
是的。
Yeah.
我们非常害怕，如果我们展现出真实的自己，那个空间就不再安全了。
And we're so scared that if we showed our true selves, then it wouldn't be a safe space anymore.
而我们内心那部分可能太难应对、太难承受、太难接纳。
And that maybe that part of us will be too hard to handle, too hard to hold, too hard to embrace.
所以我们只是把它锁在心里。
And so we just lock it up inside.
我们从不与人分享。
And we never share that.
我们从不展现它。
We never show that.
而随之而来的问题是，对方会以为你没有这种能力。
And the challenge that happens is the other person thinks you don't have the capacity.
但实际上，你心里想的是：我觉得你可能根本无法容纳真实的我。
And actually, you're thinking, well, I don't think you actually have the capacity for me to be all of myself.
要让伴侣完整地做自己，这确实需要付出很多。
And and it really does require a lot from people to allow their partner to be all of themselves.
我们该如何表达自己已经准备好为那个人创造一个安全的空间？
How do we how do we communicate that we're ready to create a safe space for that person?
我们如何真正培养自身的韧性，以容纳可能出现的一切？
And how do we actually create the resilience in ourselves to have the space for whatever may come?
我记得几年前和一对伴侣交谈时，情况类似于你提到的性别角色扮演，她当时说：‘我希望你能真正开放地接纳那个男人。’
Like I remember when I was talking to couple of few years ago, it similar to the gender play that you mentioned where she was like, I want you to be really, really open to the man.
而他只是说：‘如果我告诉你这些，我怕你不会喜欢。’
And he was just like, well, if I tell you this, I'm scared you won't like it.
然后他敞开心扉，谈起了自己过去经历的一些挑战。
And then he opened up about some of the challenges he'd had in his past.
这让她对他产生了不安全感，尽管这些事与他们两人无关。
And that really made her feel insecure about him even though it wasn't to do with them.
所以这真的可能非常复杂。
So it can be really complicated.
我们如何真正做到情感上的开放，为对方想对你说的话腾出空间？
How do we truly have emotional availability to make space for what someone has to say for us?
这是一个非常重要的观点，因为这不仅仅是说你有空间，而是真正拥有这个空间。
That's such an important point because it's not just saying that you have the space, it's actually having the space.
而正是在这一点上，我们有时很难将自己与对方区分开来。
And that's where it's hard for us sometimes to separate out who we are from who they are.
所以他们在告诉你一些关于他们自己的事，同时希望你能陪伴他们。
So they're telling you something about them, And they're asking you to sit with them.
他们在邀请你更靠近一些。
They're inviting you to come closer.
而我们却会想：哦，他们告诉我的这些事让我感到威胁。
And we think, oh, they're telling me something that feels threatening to me.
因此，当我们谈论脆弱时，其实有两种类型的脆弱。
So there there when we talk about vulnerability, there's two kinds of vulnerability.
一种是：我要告诉你一些关于我过去的事，这些事对我来说很敏感；但真正有时会触发伴侣的是，我要告诉你一些关于你与我之间关系的敏感事。
There's vulnerability of, I'm gonna tell you something about my past that feels delicate to me, but what really kind of triggers the partner sometimes is I'm going to tell you something about you in relation to me that is delicate.
那么，我们该如何在我们之间的关系层面展现脆弱呢？
And so how can we be vulnerable about something relational between us?
而正是在这里，伴侣们常常陷入困境。
And that's where couples get into a lot of trouble.
因为对方没有去听对方的话，而是变得防御，感到被指责，被批评。
Because instead of hearing the other person, they're getting defensive, they're feeling blamed, they're feeling criticized.
而实际上，对方的邀请是：请靠近我。
When really the invitation is, please come closer.
我信任你，也觉得和你很亲近。
I trust you and I feel close to you.
所以，我们怎么总是听到相反的意思，这不是很有趣吗？
So isn't it funny how we hear the opposite message?
我们听到的是：你有问题，你有缺陷，我在批评你。
We hear like, something's wrong with you, you're damaged, I'm criticizing you.
这正是我们所听到的。
That's what we're hearing.
但事实上，对方的邀请恰恰相反。
But actually, the invitation was the opposite.
这是因为，在任何两个人对话的时刻，房间里实际上可能有十几个人在场。
And that's because in any moment when there are two people in conversation, there are up to a dozen people in the room.
我的意思是，想想房间里有哪些人，就像点个名一样。
And by that I mean, think about who's in the room, like, take attendance.
你们有没有过和别人交谈时，感觉不只是你们两个人在对话？
Have any of you ever been talking to somebody else in the room and it feels like it's not just the two of you?
有人有过这种感觉吗？
Anybody?
那种感觉是，哇，发生了什么别的事，我不知道具体是什么，但那不是我说的，也不是我的本意，那根本不是……你知道的，他们到底在进行什么样的对话？
Where it feels like, wow, something else, I don't know what just happened with the other person, but that's not what I said, that's not what I meant, that wasn't, you know, that, like, that what conversation are they in?
这是因为你需要说清楚：房间里都有谁？
Well, that is because you need to say, you know, who's in the room?
比如父母、祖父母，还有代代相传的家庭模式；曾经告诉你你一事无成的老师，也曾经夸你天赋异禀的老师；还有你第一个恋人。
A parent, a grandparent, their parents because of the generational patterns that have gone down through the generations, a teacher who told you that you would never amount to something, the teacher who told you you were fabulous, you know, and the first boyfriend or girlfriend you had.
所有这些人都在房间里，但我们却浑然不觉。
Like, all those people are in the room, but we don't know it.
所以，如果你对某件事有强烈的反应，我们常说：情绪过激，必有历史原因。
So you have if you're having a big reaction to something, we always say if it's hysterical, it's historical.
你对当前所说的内容产生了过度的反应。
You are having a reaction that feels outsized to what is actually being said.
就好像你的身体一下子从零加速到了六十。
It's like you went from zero to 60 in your body.
如果反应过激，那背后必有历史原因。
If it's hysterical, it's historical.
还有哪些人是房间里的人物？
Who else who are these figures in the room?
点个名吧，看看谁在房间里。
Take attendance, See who's in the room.
然后，你希望邀请谁进入房间，又有哪些人不被邀请？
And then who do you want to invite in the room and who's not invited?
然后温和地告诉那些人：嘿，妈妈，嘿，爸爸，嘿，奶奶，嘿，兄弟姐妹，你们不被邀请参加这次对话。
And then tell the people very kindly, hey mom, hey dad, hey grandma, hey sibling, you're not invited into this conversation.
所以你先退出，我会重新回到我和这个人的对话中。
So you go and I'm gonna come back into the conversation with this person that I'm talking to.
哇。
Wow.
我太喜欢了。
I love that.
我太喜欢了。
I love that.
这太有力量了。
That's so powerful.
这与我所能想到的许多互动产生了强烈共鸣。
It resonates so strongly with so many interactions I can think of.
我想问你，劳里，如果你不爱自己，真的能爱别人吗？
I wanted to ask you, Laurie, can you truly love someone if you don't love yourself?
我经常被问到这个问题，但我认为更好的问题是：如果你不接纳自己，真的能接纳别人吗？
I get asked that question all the time and I think the better question is, can you truly accept someone if you don't accept yourself?
你能为自己和他人做的最富有爱心的事之一，就是接纳。
One of the most loving things you can do to yourself and to other people is acceptance.
而接纳并不意味着妥协或将就。
And acceptance doesn't mean settling or compromising.
它意味着拥抱他人完整的人性，也拥抱你自身完整的人性。
It means embracing the fullness of the other person's humanity and embracing the fullness of your humanity.
所以当人们说，你知道的，如果你对了，你会爱我吗？
So when people say, you know, will you love me if right?
其实真正的问题是：你能否完全接纳我？
It's do you accept me fully is really the question.
我认为，如果你不能完全接纳自己，就无法完全接纳他人。
And I don't think that you can accept someone else fully if you don't accept yourself fully.
因为，你知道，我们不能像点餐一样挑选别人。
Because, you know, we can't order up people a la carte.
就像我们以为现在可以随心所欲地挑选任何东西一样。
You know, like like we think we can just order up anything the way we want nowadays.
就像网上购物一样，你想买什么都能得到。
Just with like you can order online, you can get anything.
就像是，你知道的，你的特别要求是什么？
It's like, you know, what are your special instructions?
你知道的，把这个单独放一边。
You know, leave this on the side.
你不能对人这么做。
You can't do that with people.
他们就是以本来的样子出现的。
They just come the way they come.
所以你不能说，是的，我爱你的一切，但我只想把你的焦虑搁在一边。
So you can't be like, yeah, I love everything about you but I wanna leave like your anxiety on the side.
我想把你的神经质搁在一边。
I wanna leave your neuroses on the side.
我想把，你知道的，你和那个人过去的那段历史搁在一边。
I wanna leave, you know, that history that you have with that other person on the side.
我希望那件事没发生过。
I wish that didn't happen.
你不能这么做。
You can't do that.
所以他们都是完整地出现，不能替换任何部分。
So they come fully formed, no substitutions.
就像菜单上写的那样。
It's the way it is on the menu.
他们就是这样的。
That's how they come.
顺便说一句，你也是这样。
And you you do too, by the way.
你也有各种特质，所以我们有时会忘记，以为必须接受对方的全部。
You have so we forget sometimes we think like, I have to accept all these things about the other person.
那他们接受你的那些方面呢？
What about the things that they're accepting about you?
哦。
Oh.
对吧？
Right?
如果你真的坦诚面对，而不是像在面试时那样，人们被问到‘你最大的缺点是什么’时，把缺点包装成优点，比如‘我工作太拼命了’。
And if you were truly honest about it, not like in a job interview when people say, you know, what is your greatest weakness and you couch it as a strength, like, I work too hard.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，我最大的缺点就是我是个完美主义者，工作太拼命了。
You know, that's my greatest weakness is I'm just a perfectionist and I work too hard.
不，不是这样的。
Well, no.
那不在你的清单上。
That's not on your list.
这份清单必须是真实的东西，比如：我可能非常固执，或者我还在改进某一件事，而这可能对我的伴侣构成挑战。
The the list has to be something real like, I can be really inflexible or, I am still working on this one thing and that can be challenging for my partner.
不管是什么问题，都要诚实。
You know, whatever the things are, be honest.
你知道那些你必须接受的事情是什么。
You know what the things are that you have to accept.
一旦你接受了自己身上的这些方面，就会发生一些奇妙的事情。
And once you accept those in yourself, what happens is something kind of miraculous.
你不仅会因为被更多接纳而感到更被爱，而且这些问题也会变得不那么严重。
Not only do you feel more loved because you are more accepted, but they become smaller.
所以，那些对你来说感觉非常巨大的问题，一旦你对自己说：好吧，我不再纠结或 obsess 于它们了，它们突然就不再占据那么多情感空间了。
So those things that feel very huge to you, once you've said, you know what, I'm not gonna focus on them or obsess about them anymore, all of a sudden, they don't take up so much emotional real estate.
我就只是接受自己这一点。
It's like, I just accept that about myself.
继续前进。
Moving on.
是的。
Yeah.
这是非常有力的建议。
That's super powerful advice.
有一种说法特别有共鸣，那就是‘接纳’这个词比‘爱’更深刻。
There's a that that resonates so much more, the word acceptance versus love.
因为我觉得在讨论这类话题时，‘爱’这个词很容易变得模糊不清。
Because I I think love kinda gets convoluted when you're having that conversation.
比如，我爱自己吗？
Like, do I love myself?
他们爱我吗？
Do they love me?
我爱他们吗？
Do I love them?
而‘接纳’却能直击核心。
Whereas acceptance kind of gets to the heart of it.
当我听这些话时，我想到昨天我跟别人聊过这个话题，当时我谈到了我和我妻子拉迪的关系。
And even as I was listening to it, was thinking about like, I was talking to someone else yesterday about this, and I was talking about me and my wife, Radi.
我解释说，真正让我们的关系得以维系的，其实是接纳。
And I was explaining that really acceptance is what helps our relationship work.
我们是完全不同的人。
We're very different people.
我们的优先事项非常不同。
We have very different priorities.
我们喜欢和参与的事情也有很多不同。
And we have a lot of different things that we like and engage with.
但我们尊重这些差异，正是这些差异让我们彼此吸引。
But we respect that that's what makes the other person attractive to us.
是的。
Yes.
所以我的意思是，当Radi遇见我时，我一直是同一个人——以目标为导向。
So so what I mean by that is when Radi met me, I'm I'm the same person I've been, which is a mission oriented.
我非常专注于自己的使命。
I'm very focused on my purpose.
这是我在生活中最重要的事，我热爱它。
It's my top priority in life and I love it.
幸运的是，借个木头敲敲，过去十二年里，拉迪从未对我说过你工作太拼命了。
And thankfully, knock on wood, in the last twelve years, Radhi's never said to me, you work too much.
因为她知道我热爱这份事业。
Because she knows I love this.
这就是我。
This is who I am.
我一直都是这样的人。
It's who I always was.
而对于拉迪来说，她最重要的优先事项是家人。
And for Radi, her top priority is her family.
她深爱着他们。
She loves them.
她的侄女、侄子、奶奶、父母，还有她的姐姐。
Her niece and her nephew, her grandma, her mom and dad, like her sister.
那就是她的首要任务。
Like that's her top priority.
所以她喜欢去英国探望他们，即使我们住在洛杉矶。
And so she loves visiting them in England and going back even though we live in LA.
我也很喜欢这一点，因为我觉得Radhi之所以这么可爱，正是因为她与家人之间的深厚感情。
And I love that because I'm like, the reason why Radi is so lovable is because of her loving relationship with her family.
因此，这就成了一个接纳的契机：意识到你几乎不应该夺走那些让伴侣成为其独特自我的核心特质。
And so it becomes an acceptance point of recognizing that what it's almost like you don't wanna take away the secret sauce that makes your partner your partner.
无论是他们的抱负，还是对家人的爱，无论是什么。
Whether they're it's their ambition, whether it's the love for their family, whatever it may be.
当你尊重并接纳这些时，关系就能茁壮成长。
And when you respect and accept it, it allows for things to blossom.
而当你试图剥夺这些时，你反而会成为他们的致命弱点。
Whereas when you try and take it away, you actually end up becoming their kryptonite.
是的。
Yeah.
你正在通过剥夺他们珍视的东西，使他们变得虚弱。
And you're making them weaker by taking away the very thing that they value.
这说得通吗？
Does that make sense?
是的。
Yeah.
我把关系看作几乎像一家初创公司。
I think of relationships as almost like a relationship is like a startup.
就像你在共同创建你正在构建的任何东西。
It's like you're building, you're co founding this this whatever you're building.
每一段关系都像一片雪花。
And every single relationship, it's like a snowflake.
它是独一无二的。
It's unique.
世界上没有其他关系和它一样。
There's no other relationship out there like it.
可能会有一些重叠。
There will be overlap.
但事实上，这两个个体的结合创造出了任何人都无法复制的东西。
But the fact is these two individuals coming together are creating something that no one else can create.
因此，如果你从其中一个人身上拿走某些东西，那可能会削弱关系的丰富性。
And so if you take away something from one of the other people, that might be something that is really adds to the richness of the relationship.
你不想改变你所爱的那个人。
You don't want to change, you know, the person that you're with.
你们之间的互动可能会发生变化。
You might there might change interactions between you.
那是另一回事。
That's different.
所以，如果你想改变彼此相处的方式，但不想改变对方的本质。
So you if you wanna change the way that you relate to each other, but you don't wanna change the essence of the person.
是的。
Yeah.
我想再举一个例子，关于我曾经需要改进的一个缺点，这在我理解接纳这一点时帮助很大。
I wanna give another example of a weakness that I had that I had to work on, which which really helped me when it comes to this acceptance point.
在我们关系的某个阶段，我一直觉得不开心，因为瑞利从不主动安排更多的旅行。
At one point in our relationship, I was always like I was upset that Riley didn't organize more vacations.
所有旅行的安排都是我一个人在做。
And I was the one doing all the organizing.
有人能感同身受吗？
Anyone can relate?
如果在关系中你就是那个像我一样的人的话。
If anyone's me in the relationship.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时为此很不高兴，记得我跟她说过：你看，如果你也能一起安排旅行，我会非常感激。
And and so I was upset about that and I remember communicating that to her and I said, look, like I'd really appreciate it if you also organize the vacations.
她对我说了一番特别真诚的话，那番话深深打动了我。
And she said something that was so honest to me and and it was it really really resonated with me.
她说：杰，我非常乐意为我们安排每一次旅行。
She goes, Jay, I would happily organize any of our vacations.
但问题是，如果我来安排，你会有一大堆意见。
But the problem is if I organize it, you'll have a million pieces of feedback.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但如果你来安排，我会很开心地完全按照你的想法来。
But if you organized it, I I would just happily do whatever you wanna do.
我花了点时间才明白，但她真的说得太对了。
And and it took me a second, but she was spot on.
我是个完美主义者。
I'm like a perfectionist.
我想按这种方式完成。
I want it done this way.
我希望如此。
I want it.
我意识到，她其实是世界上最温柔的人，因为当我安排旅行时，她总是乐在其中，从不会对我说：‘唉，我们本来应该这么做’或者‘我们本该那样做’。
And I realized, was like, actually she's the sweetest person in the world because when I organize a vacation, she's happy to be a part of it and won't even ever say to me, like, oh, I wish we did this or we should have done this.
而我会一直那样。
Whereas I would be like that the whole time.
这就像一面镜子，照出了我自己。
And and and it was such a like holding up a mirror to me.
我意识到，正是我的反应方式在阻止她承担关系中的责任。
And and I realized that I was the one discouraging her from taking responsibility in a relationship because of how I would respond.
那时的我并没有这种程度的自我觉察。
And that was a lot of self awareness that I didn't have at that moment.
学会接受这一点非常有力量：尽管我以为她不是为我做这些，但实际上是因为我的行为方式造成的。
And it was such a powerful thing to learn to accept that even though I thought she wasn't doing something for me, actually it was because of how I was behaving.
这种情况太常见了。
That happens so often.
我记得当时看到这对情侣时，她曾说：‘我希望你下班后顺路过来一下。’
I I remember when I was seeing this couple, she was saying, you know, I want you to stop by on the way home from the gym.
我希望你顺路去趟超市，帮我买些东西。
I want you to stop by to the market, and I want you to get these things.
他们有了孩子，她希望他买有机草莓。
And they had a baby, and she wanted him to get organic strawberries.
那天他在Trader Joe's没找到有机草莓。
He did not have organic strawberries at Trader Joe's that day.
那他做了什么？
So what did he do?
他买了普通的草莓。
He got the regular strawberry.
哦，天哪。
Oh, no.
大家都知道接下来会发生什么。
We know how this goes, guys.
我想说一下#第一世界问题。
Now, I wanna say hashtag first world problems.
对吧？
Right?
但与此同时，这些正是人们最常为哪些小事争吵的呢？
But at the same time, these are like the tiny what do people fight about most?
这些微不足道的小事，其实意味着更重要的东西。
There are these tiny things that mean something much bigger.
所以对她来说，这代表你根本不关心对我和我们孩子重要的事。
So for her, this meant you don't pay attention to what's important for me and our baby.
对吧？
Right?
而对他来说，意思是：不，我做到了。
And for him, it was like, no, I did.
我完全按照你的要求做了。
I did exactly what you asked.
如果我按自己的方式做，我可能会去另一个地方，那里或许有有机草莓，但我为了不惹麻烦，才遵从了你的指示。
And if I had done it my way, I would have gone to the other place, and maybe they would have had organic strawberries, but I was following your directions so I wouldn't get in trouble.
结果我还是惹上麻烦了。
And then I got in trouble anyway.
所以当我们试图控制伴侣时，就会出现这类问题。
So these are the kinds of things when we try to control our partners.
我们没有给予他们自主权，去以创造性的方式做那些真正能增进关系的事情。
We're not giving them the autonomy to creatively do the things that actually would enhance the relationship.
当我们探讨什么因素能让伴侣关系成功时，有两个最重要的特质。
And when, you know, when we look at what is the number one trait, there are two there when we say like, what what makes couples work?
对吧？
Okay?
情绪稳定，这意味着你基本上在努力处理自己的问题。
Emotional stability, and that means like you basically, you know, have you're working on your stuff.
第二点是灵活性，你必须具备灵活性。
And the second thing is flexibility, that you have to be flexible.
如果你在关系中是个完美主义者，并且试图控制伴侣，这会让你变得非常难以相处。
And so if you're the perfectionist in the relationship and you're trying to control your partner, that's gonna make you very, very difficult to live with.
结果就是，你会逐渐失去控制，因为对方不再愿意关注你，不再信任你，他们会想办法绕开你——就像我们常说的，关系中需要一个水族箱，育儿也是如此。
And and what will happen is you will start to lose control because now that person doesn't wanna pay attention, they don't trust you, They're gonna try to go around you because they're they're you know, it's kind of like we say that you need an aquarium in a relationship, also with parenting.
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但鱼缸就像鱼缸一样，太狭小了。
But an aquarium is like if it's a fishbowl, it's too tight.
太受限制了。
It's like too constrained.
这才是鱼缸。
It's an aquarium.
没有任何规则。
There's no rules.
没人知道里面在发生什么。
Nobody knows what's going on.
感觉不好。
It doesn't feel good.
感觉不安全。
It doesn't feel safe.
鱼缸刚刚好。
An aquarium is just right.
你能给对方提供一个类似水族馆的环境吗？
Can you give the other person the equivalent of an aquarium?
这样他们就有空间自由游动，同时关系中也存在一些共同认可的规则。
So they have room to swim, but there are also certain agreed upon rules in the relationship.
明白了。
Got it.
这很有道理。
That makes sense.
劳里，我一直很想问你这个问题。
I've been I've been dying to ask you this question, Laurie.
你多年来一直辅导夫妻和关系，也参与过夫妻和个体的心理治疗，这些我都了解。
You've, you know, coached couples and relationships for decades now and, you know, been in therapy with couples, individuals, everything.
我想问你，兼容性和化学反应之间有什么区别？
I wanted to ask you, what is the difference between compatibility and chemistry?
哪一个更重要？
And which one's more important?
我们来做个投票吧。
Let's do a poll.
我们来做吧。
Let's do it.
和你们一起做这件事真的很有趣。
That's the fun of getting to do it with all of you.
谁认为兼容性比化学反应更重要？
Who thinks who thinks that compatibility is more important than chemistry?
发出点声音。
Make some noise.
好的。
Okay.
现在轮到支持化学反应的人了。
And and now the chemistry folks.
发出点声音。
Make some noise.
好的。
Alright.
好的。
Alright.
三一九。
Three one nine.
每个人都有相当多的份额。
There's a there's a good there's a good amount for each.
但这是我给出的答案。
But here's the the answer that I would give.
在见证了这么多年夫妻之后，我会说，最重要的化学反应是兼容性。
And this is from seeing couples for all of these years and I will say that I think that the most important form of chemistry is compatibility.
哇。
Wow.
所以你们都对。
So you're all right.
我所说的兼容性是什么意思呢？
And what I mean by that?
兼容性就是我们合不合拍？
So compatibility is do we vibe?
我们对如何享受乐趣的看法是否一致？
Do we have the same ideas about how we like to have fun?
我们对自己和关系的目标是否一致？
Do we have the same ideas about our goals for ourselves and for our relationship?
我们是否能激发出彼此最好的一面？
Do we bring out the best in each other?
这才是真正的炽热化学反应。
That's like red hot chemistry.
对吧？
Right?
但兼容性也同样重要。
But it's compatibility too.
有些人会说，化学反应就是和这个人在一起总是紧张不安，但天啊，这个人真的好有魅力。
Some people would say that chemistry is, I always feel on edge with this person, but wow, that person's so hot.
对吧？
Right?
另一个人都可能真的很有吸引力。
Well, the other person can be really hot.
这也是你兼容性的一部分。
That's part of your compatibility too.
但你还需要其他那些东西。
But you need the other things.
如果你能激发出彼此最好的一面，那就是化学反应和兼容性完美融合在一起。
If you bring out the best in each other, that is chemistry and compatibility all wrapped in one.
是的。
Yeah.
我同意。
I agree.
我喜欢这个回答。
I love that answer.
是的。
Yeah.
说吧。
Go.
继续。
Give it up.
这让我想起一项我读过并非常喜欢的惊人研究，它谈到当你遇到某人并感受到火花或化学反应时，实际上那是一种焦虑和兴奋交织的感觉。
There's you reminded me of this amazing study that I read that I loved, which was talking about how when you meet someone and you feel the spark or the chemistry, really what it is is anxiety and excitement at the same time.
所以这是一种兴奋和压力的结合。
So it's like excitement and stress.
我给你举个例子。
I'll give you an example.
兴奋的是，天哪，他/她真帅/真美。
The excitement is, oh my gosh, they're hot.
对吧？
Right?
压力是，他们觉得我有魅力吗？
The stress is, do they think I'm hot?
对吧？
Right?
兴奋的是，天啊，我拿到了他们的号码。
The excitement is, oh my gosh, I got their number.
我要给他们发消息。
I'm gonna text them.
压力是，他们会回我消息吗？
The stress is, are they gonna text me back?
兴奋的是，我觉得我们约会得特别棒。
The excitement is, I thought we had a great date.
压力是，他们觉得我们约会得棒吗？
The stress is, do they think we had a great date?
所以，化学上的吸引力实际上就是这样的。
And so that's what chemistry chemically actually is.
它就是压力和兴奋的结合。
It's stress and excitement.
现在真正有趣的是，这项研究指出，随着时间推移，当你越来越了解一个人并共度时光后，你的压力会降低。
Now what's really interesting, what this study said is that over time, when you get to know someone and you've spent time together, your stress goes down.
因为你已经习惯了和他们在一起。
Because now you're used to being around them.
你知道他们喜欢你。
You know they like you.
你知道他们也喜欢和你待在一起。
You know they like being around you.
你知道他们会给你回消息。
You know they're gonna text you back.
因此，随着压力降低，兴奋感也开始减弱。
And so because the stress goes down, excitement kind of starts to diminish.
你现在以为这是无聊，但实际上这是平静。
And you now think it's boredom when actually it's peace.
对吧？
Right?
所以，有一种很奇怪的想法，认为兼容性很无聊，而化学反应很刺激。
So it's this really weird idea that compatibility is boring and chemistry is exciting.
但真正的良好兼容性是一种平静感。
But really real great compatibility is a sense of peace.
我们彼此相处时真的感到平静。
That we actually feel peaceful around each other.
现在我在你身边不再感到紧张。
I now don't feel on edge around you.
我不必担心你是否喜欢我。
And I don't have to worry about whether you like me.
这就是为什么如此多的关系会经历这个转折点——你必须真正地自我反省：我们是真的无聊了，还是我只是失去了对方喜欢我、回复我、给我发消息的那种压力？
And that's why it's so interesting how so many relationships go through this border mirror when you've got to actually check-in with yourself and say, are we bored or have I just lost the stress of them liking me and texting me back and messaging me?
是的。
Right.
但你得到的却是这种‘这个人爱我’带来的多巴胺。
But what you get instead is you get the dopamine of this person loves me.
对吧？
Right?
就像所有那些经历过你所说情况的人一样，你知道，约会进行得很顺利。
Like, there's something all of the people who are dealing with what you said of, you know, the date went well.
他们觉得约会进行得顺利吗？
Did they think the date went well?
你知道吗，我拿到了他们的电话号码。
Did you know, I got their number.
他们会回我电话吗？
Are they gonna call me back?
所有这些事情。
You know, all of that.
当人们经历这些时，你知道他们在治疗中会怎么说他们真正的感觉吗？
That is so when people are going through that, you know what they say in therapy when they tell you what they're really feeling?
他们会说，我只想感到安全，想要平静，想要这一切，对吧？
They say, all I want is to feel safe, I want peace, I want all of that, right?
我只是想感觉良好，我知道这个人喜欢我，我想和他们一起享受乐趣。
I just wanna feel good and I know that this person likes me and I wanna have fun with them.
这就是他们真正想要的。
That's what they want.
但当他们得到了这些，却又说：不，我想要的是另一样东西。
And then when they have that, they say, oh no, I want the other thing.
我想要一开始的那种感觉。
I want that other thing at the beginning.
你一开始并不快乐。
You weren't happy at the beginning.
你当时一直很紧张。
You were stressed out all the time.
你当时在想，对方会打电话来吗？
You were like, is the person gonna call?
会发生什么事？
What's gonna happen?
对方发完消息后等了这么久才回复，这到底意味着什么？
What did it mean that the person waited this many hours between the text and the time that right?
没人喜欢这种感觉。
Nobody nobody enjoys that.
但他们事后回想时却以为自己喜欢。
They think they did in retrospect.
但在当时，当他们描述这种感受时，会说：我讨厌这样。
But at the time when they're reporting it, they're like, I hate this.
是的。
Yeah.
太对了。
That's so true.
确实如此。
That's so true.
我们在刚开始约会时有多么焦虑、紧张和压力重重，很快就会忘记，是的。
We we forget very quickly how anxious and nervous and stressed we were at the start when we were dating someone Yeah.
还有那时的样子。
And and what that looked like.
你好。
Hey there.
这是医生。
This is Doctor.
杰西·米尔斯博士，加州大学洛杉矶分校健康中心男性诊所主任，也是《邮件室》播客的主持人。
Jesse Mills, Director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom Podcast.
每年一月，各地的男性都会立下同样的新年目标。
Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions.
变得更强大，更努力工作，修复那些破损的东西。
Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken.
但如果真正的努力根本不是身体上的呢？
But what if the real work isn't physical at all?
为了开启新的一年，我与一位医生进行了交谈。
To kick off the new year, I sat down with Doctor.
史蒂夫·波尔特博士，一位拥有三十多年经验的心理学家，帮助男性梳理他们从未被教导去命名的羞耻、焦虑和情感痛苦。
Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over thirty years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name.
在这场深入的两部分对话中，我们探讨了为什么男性并非情感上坚不可摧，为什么羞耻感总是藏在明处，以及真正的力量源于倾听自己和他人。
In a powerful two part conversation, we discussed why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others.
那些有毒的男性，往往不成熟，或者内心有些未解决的问题。
Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved.
一旦这些问题得到解决，同理心和同情心就会随之而来。
Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion.
如果你希望今年不再硬撑痛苦，而是开始理解痛苦背后的根源，请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你常用的任何平台收听《Mailroom》。
If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to The Mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
新的一年并不意味着抹去过去的你。
A new year doesn't mean erasing who you were.
这意味着尊重你所经历的一切，并选择你想要如何成长。
It means honoring what you've survived and choosing how you want to grow.
这意味着允许自己感受那些一直压抑的情绪，并知道寻求帮助是完全可以的。
It means giving ourselves permission to feel what we've been holding and knowing that it's okay to ask for help.
我是《神圣课程》的主持人迈克·德拉罗查。
I'm Mike Della Rocha, host of Sacred Lessons.
这个播客为男性提供了一个开放讨论心理健康、悲伤、人际关系以及我们继承却不必重复的模式的空间。
This podcast is a space for men to talk openly about mental health, grief, relationships, and the patterns we inherit, but don't have to repeat.
在这里，我们放慢脚步，用心倾听，学习脆弱如何转化为力量，以及疗愈如何在社群中发生，而非孤立无援。
Here, we slow down, we listen, we learn how vulnerability becomes strength, and how healing happens in community, not in isolation.
如果你准备好放下不再服务于你的东西，带着清晰、慈悲与目标迎接新的一年，《神圣课程》将成为你疗愈之路上的伙伴。
If you're ready to let go of what no longer serves you and step into the year with clarity, compassion, and purpose, Sacred Lessons is your companion on your healing journey.
收听迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，收听美国排名第一的播客网络iHeart。
Listen to Sacred Lessons with Mike Della Rocha on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.
关注迈克·德拉罗查的《神圣课程》，立即在免费的iHeart Radio应用上开始收听。
Follow sacred lessons with Mike Della Rocha and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.
你好。
Hi.
我是普里扬卡·瓦利医生。
I'm doctor Priyanka Wally.
我是哈里克·纳博卢。
And I'm Harikh Nabolu.
新的一年到了。
It's a new year.
在播客《健康话题》中，我们重新定义了谈论健康的方式。
And on the podcast health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.
这意味着坦诚面对我们所知道的、不知道的，以及这一切可能有多混乱。
Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.
我喜欢晚睡晚起。
I like to sleep in late and sleep early.
有这样的生物钟类型吗，还是我只是抑郁了？
Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?
我们邀请专家分享真实的经历和见解。
We talk experts who share real experiences and insight.
你真正需要做的是找到自己生活中能够产生影响的地方，然后开始行动。
You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that.
我们会拆解你想要深入了解的话题。
We break down the topics you want to know more about.
睡眠、压力、心理健康，以及周围世界如何影响我们的整体健康。
Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.
我们会探讨各种保持身心内外健康的方法。
We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy.
我们人类，最想要的就是连接。
We human beings, all we want is connection.
我们只是想彼此建立联系。
We just want to connect with each other.
健康话题关乎学习、欢笑，以及感到不那么孤单。
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或您收听播客的任何平台收听。
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
在我们继续进行一些非常令人兴奋和有趣的内容之前，我想先和观众互动一下，我想再问你们一个问题：接受婚姻咨询的伴侣，是否也应该接受个人咨询？
Before we go on to something really exciting and interesting I want do with the audience, I wanted to ask you one more question, which is this idea of should couples in therapy also be going to individual therapy?
我很高兴你问了这个问题。
And how do you you're happy I asked that question?
是的。
Yeah.
你该怎么判断呢？
How do you figure that out?
比如，你会去做个人咨询吗？
Like do you go individual therapy?
你也会做婚姻咨询吗？
Do you also do couples therapy?
你只做婚姻咨询吗？
Do you only do couples therapy?
比如，你怎么判断这一点？
Like how do you figure that out?
我认为在很多方面，伴侣治疗其实就是个体治疗，至少这是我处理的方式。
I think that in a lot of ways, couples therapy is individual therapy, and at least the way that I do it.
在我让来访者进入治疗之前，我会分别对每个人说：无论对方做什么，如果你想要在这段关系中成为最好的自己，你希望改善什么？
And what I do is before people come into therapy, I say to each person separately, if you are going to be the best version of yourself in this relationship regardless of what the other person does, what do you want to work on?
你希望改善的一件事是什么？
What is one thing that you want to work on?
我会问他们每个人这个问题。
And I ask each of them that.
他们不会告诉对方自己的答案是什么。
They don't tell each other what it is.
这是他们在治疗中的个人目标。
That's their sort of individual goal in the therapy.
因此，无论治疗中发生什么，他们每个人始终都在专注于自己的这个目标。
And so no matter what happens in the therapy, the whole time they are working on, each of them is working on that one goal.
你猜会发生什么？
And guess what happens?
当每个人都在做自己的个人成长时，你并不能改变对方，但你会影响对方。
As each person is kind of doing their individual work, you don't change another person, but you influence another person.
于是，我现在更加意识到这一点了，看看它对对方产生了怎样的影响。
So now, oh, I am being more aware of this now, And look at the effect it's having on the other person.
这是一个良性循环。
It's a virtuous cycle.
所以，不再是那种恶性循环——我们跳着这种舞，我的行为惹恼了对方，对方的行为也惹恼了我，而是我现在做了些不同的事，对方对此做出了积极的回应。
So instead of like the vicious cycle of, well, we're doing this dance and what I do upsets this person and what they do upsets me, it's like I'm doing something different and they're responding well to it.
现在他们对我的改变做出了积极回应，这种积极的互动就这样不断持续下去。
Now they're responding well to it and they're responding well to It keeps going back and forth.
我觉得这非常有趣，因为在一段关系中，我们常常有这样的思维模式：如果我对你发火，那是因为我累了，今天老板对我要求太严了。
And I think that's so interesting because, you know, often in a relationship, we have this this way of thinking like, if I snap at you, it's because I was tired and my boss was really demanding today.
但如果你对我发火，那就是因为你不尊重我，根本不在乎我。
If you snap at me, it's because you're disrespectful and you don't care about me.
对吧？
Right?
这很真实。
That's real.
是的。
Yeah.
所以发生的情况是，我们因为知道自己为什么那样做而有上下文。
So so what happens is we have context because we know in our own mind why we did what we did.
我们认为自己知道别人为什么那样做，但我们对此一无所知。
And we think we know why the other person did what they did, but we have zero context for it.
我们不知道。
We don't know.
因为我们感到受伤，所以不去问。
And because we feel hurt by it, we don't ask.
所以我认为，认真考虑我们并不知道全部真相非常重要。
So I think it's really important to consider that we don't know the whole story.
所以在进行伴侣治疗时，你同时也在与个体一起工作。
And so when you're doing couples therapy, you're working with the individuals at the same time.
你不能只针对一对伴侣工作，也不能只说‘这是我们的问题’。
You can't just work with a couple and you can't just work with, like, here's our problem.
而是要面对：这是我的事，我的过往，我带进房间的这12个人。
It's like, here's my stuff, here's my history, here's, like, all the 12 people I'm bringing in the room.
这是你，你的事，你的过往，你带进房间的那12个人。
Here's you, your stuff, your history, the 12 people you're bringing in the room.
让我们把那些不该在场的人请出去。
Let's disinvite the people who don't need to be here.
让我们聊聊，在‘谁洗衣服’这个问题之下，真正发生的是什么。
Let's talk about what is going on underneath the problem of who's doing the laundry.
是的。
Yeah.
说得好。
Well said.
说得好，劳里。
Well said, Laurie.
太棒了。
Amazing.
好吧。
Alright.
嗯，你知道，和你们所有人一起现场进行这件事的乐趣在于，通常我们是在演播室里，但首先我想说，这对我意义重大，因为我真的非常热爱这一切。
Well, you know, the joy of doing this live with all of you, usually we're in a studio, the joy of doing this first of all, would just wanna say how much this means to me because I absolutely love this.
我真希望我们能每期播客都这样进行。
I wish we could do every podcast like this.
看到什么能引起你们的共鸣、与你们产生连接、让你们感同身受，真是太有趣了。
Like it's so fun to see what resonates with you and what connects with you and what you relate to.
但我只是想看一下举手的人。
But I just wanna get a shot of hands.
今晚在场的有多少对伴侣？
How many couples do we have in the house tonight?
如果今晚你和伴侣一起来了，请举手。
Raise your hand if you're with your partner tonight.
好的，太棒了。
Okay, amazing.
挺多的。
Quite a few.
我喜欢这样。
I love that.
现在，正如我之前和莱利分享的那样，每对伴侣都会经历分歧和类似的事情。
Now look, every couple as I was sharing with me and Riley too, every couple goes through disagreements and things like that.
我想给某人一个机会，现在就和劳里在台上做一个练习。
I wanna give someone the opportunity to have and do an exercise with Laurie on stage right now.
所以，如果有任何情侣想上台和我们一起，就请举手。
So if we have any couples that would love to join us on stage, raise your hands.
我会走过去和你们聊聊。
I'm gonna come out and talk to you.
举起你们的手。
Raise your hands.
你好。
Hello.
这会很有趣。
This is gonna be fun.
嗨。
Hi.
我在确认一下。
I'm checking.
嗨。
Hi.
这会超级有趣。
It's gonna be super fun.
好的。
Alright.
好的。
Okay.
首先，谢谢大家。
Well, first of all, thank you guys.
你们啊，关系太好了。
You guys Oh, are so The relationship.
我就待在这儿。
I'm just staying here.
我们可能会请杰来帮忙调解。
We might we might bring we might bring Jay in for some mediation.
好吧。
So okay.
告诉我们你们的名字。
Tell us your names.
我是斯蒂芬妮。
I'm Stephanie.
斯蒂芬妮？
Stephanie?
尼科。
Nico.
尼科。
Nico.
好的。
Okay.
你们演戏怎么样？
So how are you guys at acting?
不太行。
Not very good.
好的。
Okay.
我们会尽力的。
Well, we're gonna do our best.
他很害怕。
He's he's terrified.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我喜欢
I like
在那些门后面，我觉得我挺擅长的。
behind those doors, I think I'm pretty good at it.
好吧。
Alright.
所以我正在选一部剧的演员，你来演尼科。
So I'm casting a play and you're playing Nico.
哦。
Oh.
你扮演斯蒂芬妮。
You're playing Stephanie.
尼科。
Nico.
好的。
Okay.
这个人叫什么名字？
What is what is this person's name right here?
大家一起来说。
Everybody say it.
尼科。
Nico.
我是尼科。
I'm Nico.
很好。
Good.
这个人叫什么名字？
What is this person's name over here?
斯蒂芬妮。
Stephanie.
好的。
Alright.
所以我想让你们用非麦克风的手，牵起手来。
So I want you guys to hold with a non mic hand, hold hands.
我们在夫妻治疗中经常这样做，因为这样能让你们的神经系统平静下来，保持连接。
And we do this a lot in couples therapy because your nervous system calms down, it keeps you connected.
尼科，你能告诉我斯蒂芬妮的问题是什么吗？
And Nico, can you tell me what the issue is with Stephanie?
当我问问题是什么时，不只是问问题是什么，而是它让你有什么感受？
And and when I say what the issue is, not just what the issue is, but what what does it make you feel?
你内心有什么浮现出来？
What comes up for you?
我想大概是担忧和压力，情绪上的不堪重负。
I guess just like worry and stress, just overwhelm of emotions.
是的。
Yeah.
但具体问题是什么？
But what's what's the issue?
你们俩在哪些事情上存在分歧？
What what is the issue that you guys are disagreeing about?
我想是关于自我价值的问题。
I guess the worthy of yourself.
意思是，当你们在这些问题上争执时，会发生什么？
Meaning, so what happens between the two of you when you you're disagreeing about?
我觉得有时候我达不到自己应该达到的标准。
I guess I just don't, like, sometimes feel like I level up to the expectation of how I should be.
哦，就是Stephanie希望你成为的样子。
Oh, how Stephanie wants you to be.
告诉我更多关于你认为斯蒂芬妮对你有什么期待。
Tell me more about what you think Stephanie what what Stephanie wants from you.
斯蒂芬妮希望你成为什么样的人？
What does Stephanie want you to be like?
我想，就是在各个方面尽我所能，比如作为一个妈妈、作为一个伴侣，能够为对方全心投入。
I guess, just like the best I can do in any aspect, like as a mom, as a partner, just to be able to be present for the other person.
所以斯蒂芬妮希望你做一个好妈妈。
So Stephanie wants you to be a good mom.
你就是尼科。
You're you're Nico.
等一下。
Wait.
我有点困惑。
I'm confused.
我有点困惑。
I'm confused.
你是尼科。
You're Nico.
你是尼科。
You're Nico.
对。
Right.
所以，你就是尼科。
So so you're you're Nico.
没关系。
It's okay.
很难进入那种心态
It's hard to get into the mind set
是的。
of Yeah.
我还是觉得，你是尼科？
I'm still all the So you're Nico?
我是尼科。
I'm Nico.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
所以
So
我觉得，还有斯蒂芬妮，斯蒂芬妮根本没在听这个。
I feel And and Stephanie and Stephanie is not listening to this.
好的。
Okay.
所以我要
So I
需要，好的。
need Okay.
所以你是Nico，你在告诉我你觉得自己无法告诉Stephanie的感受，她让你觉得自己是否达到了她的期望。
To So you're you're Nico and you're telling me what you feel like you can't tell Stephanie about how does she make you feel about whether you're living up to her expectations.
有点困惑。
Kinda confused.
所以我是Nico，我在向你表达
So this is as so I'm Nico and I'm communicating to
所以你是Nico。
So you're you're Nico.
你和Stephanie之间发生了什么？
And what is going on with you and Stephanie?
你到底有什么感受？
What is what is what are you feeling like?
视角。
Perspective.
是的。
Yeah.
你认为挑战是什么？
What are you seeing as the challenge?
我想就是照顾家庭带来的压力吧
I guess just like the overwhelm of supporting for the family
嗯。
Mhmm.
让Stephanie知道我正在尽力照顾好自己和你，但我也需要关注自己的心理健康。
And letting Stephanie know that I am doing my best to take care of myself and you, but I also need to focus on, like, my mental health.
当你觉得Stephanie不认为你已经尽力时，你是什么感觉？
And what what does it feel like when you feel like Stephanie isn't, doesn't feel like you're doing your best?
我想是感到恼火，因为她不理解我的感受。
I guess it's like annoyance that they're not understanding of what I'm feeling.
Stephanie不理解什么？
What does Stephanie not understand?
我也需要属于自己的时间。
That I also need to have me time.
好的。
Okay.
那你觉得Stephanie为什么难以给你留出属于自己的时间呢？
And what happens why do you think Stephanie has trouble giving you the the space to have me time?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得她也想要属于自己的时间，并且明白这其中需要保持平衡。
I think she also wants me time and that understanding that there is a balance.
如果你需要这个，那我也必须有同样的权利。
And if you get this, I have to have that too.
好的。
Okay.
所以这必须在某种程度上达到平衡。
So it has to be sort of equalized in
是的。
Yeah.
在斯蒂芬妮的想法里？
In Stephanie's mind?
是的。
Yes.
但在你心里不是这样？
But not in your mind?
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
好吧。
Alright.
斯蒂芬妮，你这边怎么想？
Stephanie, what's going on for you?
所以是对的。
So right.
我能理解为什么很难切换到那种心态。
I can see why this is hard to switch into that mindset.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你知道，尼科在家工作，一大早就会去电脑前，而我显然得帮忙照顾我们的女儿娜塔莉亚。
So, you know, Nico works from home, and he goes to his computer early in the morning, and I have to, you know, obviously help out with Natalia, our baby girl.
而且你知道，我可能会看到他中午去跑步，然后呢，有什么事情是你知道的吗？
And and, you know, I might see him that he he might go for a run-in the middle of the day, and and there's something that you know?
我觉得尼科这么做是因为他只是想清空思绪，为家人提供支持。
And I think that Nico does that because he just wants to clear his mind, and he wants to provide for his family.
但你知道，也许如果我做一些不一定要死守在办公桌前的事情，那么斯蒂芬妮或者尼科可能会……
But, you know, maybe if I do something that's not necessarily me being glued to my desk, then then Stephanie might or or Nico
你你知。
You're you k.
你你是你
You are you are you are
如果我没看到尼科全程都在桌前工作，我会感到沮丧，而他可能正在做些属于自己的事，但我却没得到这种空间，我也想做自己的事情，却做不到，因此我嫉妒尼科能有这样的时间。
I I get upset if maybe I don't see Nico if he's not a 100% working at his desk, and he might be doing something that, you know, he might be dedicating time for him, and I'm not getting that, and I'm, you know, I also want to be doing my things and I'm not able to do that and I'm jealous that maybe Nico is doing that.
你知道你们俩为什么总是记不住对方是谁吗？
You know why you guys are having so much trouble remembering who the other person is?
因为你们有着完全相同的抱怨。
Because you have the exact same complaint.
是什么？
What's that?
你们都觉得对方没有给自己足够的专属时间，也不理解为什么你需要这样的时间。
That you both feel like the other person doesn't give you enough me time and the other person doesn't understand why you need it.
对。
Right.
这很有趣，因为通常我跟夫妻做这个练习时，一个人有一种观点，另一个人则有完全不同的观点。
So this is interesting because normally when I do this with couples, one person has one perspective on something, the other person has a completely different perspective on it.
你们俩简直有同样的抱怨。
You guys literally have the same complaint.
所以我想让你们做的是，想象一下在你们各自的角色中，你们给对方留下了怎样的印象。
So what I want you to do is I want you to imagine while you're in your roles, how you come across to the other person.
所以我要把你们带回到真实的自己。
So I'm gonna bring you back to your actual selves.
你是斯蒂芬妮，你是尼科。
So you're Stephanie, you're Nico.
明白吗？
Okay?
我想让你们演出来，斯蒂芬妮，想象一下当你对尼科感到沮丧，想要属于自己的时间，或者不喜欢他拥有属于自己的时间时，你是怎么表现的，要夸张一点，表现得明显一点。
I want you to act out, Stephanie, how you think and make it really big and make it really, you know, like like exaggerated.
当你对尼科感到不满，想要属于自己的时间，或者不喜欢他拥有属于自己的时间时，你是怎么表现出来的？
How you come across to Nico when you're frustrated with him and you want me time or you don't like him having me time.
我觉得我有时候表现得像个孩子。
I feel like I sometimes act like a child.
好吧，让我们看看。
Just Well, let let's see it.
让我们看看。
Let's see.
实际上，哦。
Actually actually Oh.
哦。
Oh.
继续吧。
Go for it.
顺便说一下，我们每个人都会经历这样的时刻。
And by the way, this is we all we all have these moments.
这些时刻通常不会发生在舞台上。
They're normally not on a stage.
所以请明白，这个观众席里的每个人，都曾在自己家中做过同样的事。
So please know that every single person in this audience has done this just in the privacy of their own home.
或者在我沙发上。
Or on my couch.
天哪
Goodness
天哪，宝贝。
gracious, babe.
你根本不听。
You don't listen.
我需要做我自己，给自己一点空间，别总想着你自己，好好听我说。
I need to just do me, have a moment for myself, stop thinking about yourself, and just listen.
宝贝，我有很多事。
Baby, I have a lot.
好的。
Okay.
不。
No.
不。
No.
等等。
Wait.
别。
Don't.
我其实不会回应。
I'm not actually gonna respond.
我准备好了。
I'm ready.
那是一场精彩的表演。
That was a great performance.
好的。
Okay.
尼科，告诉斯蒂芬妮，当她那样做时是什么感觉。
Nico, tell Stephanie what it feels like when she does that.
关于你，哦，你只会谈论你自己。
About you, oh, you're only gonna talk about you.
你不会说‘你’，你会谈论你自己。
You're not gonna say you this, you're gonna you're gonna talk about yourself.
我感觉
I feel
是的。
Yeah.
宝贝，你知道我喜欢被怎样接近。
Baby, you know how I like to be approached.
我非常注重在说话之前先思考。
I'm I'm very just big on, you know, thinking before you say something.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你是在告诉她。
You're telling her.
你说到点子上了。
You're telling Right.
我不
I don't
我不喜欢触发性的词语。
I don't like triggering words.
我不喜欢当
I don't like it when
我要给你一些多项选择。
I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you some like a multiple choice.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
因为我们不知道。
Because we don't know.
我们需要像这样，你知道的，我们几乎没有接受过关于情绪的培训。
We need like it's almost like, you know, we don't we didn't get a lot of of training on like what are the feelings.
对吧？
Right?
我们知道生气、难过、开心，但中间的情绪一无所知。
We know like mad, sad, happy, but we don't know anything in between.
就像我们知道三原色，却不知道各种色调。
It's like we know the primary colors, but we don't know the shades.
我在这里看到的是：我感到愤怒，我感到羞愧。
What I saw here was I I feel angry, I feel shame.
这有共鸣吗？
Does that resonate?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
跟她说说羞耻感。
Tell her about the shame.
就像我正在努力解决这个问题吗？
It's like how I'm trying to fix this?
不。
No.
就告诉她羞耻感是什么样的。
Just tell her what it what the shame is like.
我感觉
I feel
当她对你那样说、那样做时，那种羞耻感对你来说是什么样的？
How it feels when you feel when she says that to you, when she acts in that way to you, how does that shame feel to you?
是的。
Yeah.
我只是觉得我在同时应付很多事情，但并没有让我感到被倾听，我的观点没有被认真对待。
I just I I feel like I'm I'm trying to juggle a lot, and it doesn't make me feel, like, heard or my point my on my point of view is is being listened to.
我只是希望这能更像一场对话，而不是一种攻击。
You know, I just wish that it was more of a conversation instead of like an attack.
我想回到羞耻感这个话题，因为我觉得这正是‘如果你让她失望了，这意味着什么’的核心所在。
I I wanna go back to the shame only because I think that that's sort of the core of what does it mean if you disappoint her?
所以她对你感到失望，无论对错，我都不打算深入讨论这一点。
So she's disappointed by you, rightly or wrongly, I'm not gonna get into that.
尽管我确实有自己的看法。
Although, I do have an opinion about it.
但她感到失望，并且她说：‘我想感到安全。’
But she's disappointed and she's saying, I want to feel safe.
我希望你能提供。
I want you to provide.
我希望你能好好利用你的时间。
I want you to use your time well.
我希望你能够高效工作。
I want you to be productive.
你觉得自己如果不能为她做到这一点，就会对自己感到失望。
And you feel like, I if I don't do that for her, then I feel bad about myself.
告诉她，这种情况让你对自己感到糟糕的部分。
Tell her about the part that it makes you feel bad about yourself.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
也许吧，我非常支持你，当你在那些情况下感到压力时，我确实会感到难过，我也确实希望你能尽可能多地拥有时间。
Maybe, you know, I'm very supportive of you and and I I do feel bad when I see you stressed out in those situations and I I I do wanna make sure that you get as much time as possible.
只是对我来说这很难。
It's just hard for me to
但你一直在谈论她，而我想让你谈谈你自己，这真的很难。
But you're talking about her and I want you to talk about you and this is really hard.
但当你感到羞愧时，对你来说会发生什么？
But what is it what happens for you when you feel ashamed?
比如，我觉得我达不到你想要的标准，所以我就会关闭自己，不再听你说话。
Like, I'm not I can't measure up to what you want, so I'm going to shut down, I'm going to stop listening to you.
你身上会发生什么？
What do you what happens to you?
我确实会关闭自己。
I do shut down.
我想有时候进行这样的对话并认真倾听很难，我就只是……关闭了。
I guess it's it's hard sometimes to have that conversation and and and listen and I just yeah, down.
我并不，我并不
I don't I don't
你能为她演示一下，如果她想表达自己的需求，但采用一种不同的方式，不像是她现在这样对待你，会是什么样子吗？
Can you act out for her what a different approach would be for her to say what she wants to say, but it doesn't look like the way she approaches you?
我希望她能这样
How I would want her to
是的。
Yeah.
你希望她对你怎么说呢？
What would you like her to say to you instead?
宝贝，你觉得我能不能在一点到两点之间，有一些属于自己的时间？
Baby, do you think I can, you know, between one and two, have some me time?
当她觉得谁得到的独处时间更多像是一场竞争时，你希望她对你怎么说呢？
Well, when she's feeling like there's a there's a contest between who gets more me time, what would you like her to say to you instead?
宝贝，我真的需要一些属于自己的时间来关注自己。
You know, baby, I this I need me time to focus on myself.
这真的对我作为一个人很有帮助，从心理上来说，而且我觉得如果我们能有那么一个小时让我冥想、听我的杰·沙蒂视频，我们的关系会更好。
This really helps me as a person and and and just mentally, and and I think it would help our relationship more if, you know, maybe I just had an hour here to to meditate and listen to my Jay Shetty podcast and
一直如此。
All the time.
一直如此。
All the time.
好的。
Okay.
所以我想让你现在就对他这么说。
And and and so I want you to say that to him right now.
他希望你对他这样说吗？
That's what he wants you to say to him?
说吧。
Go ahead and say it.
所以，我觉得我需要这一到两个小时来专心专注。
So, I think I need this one to two hours to really focus.
等等。
Wait.
我不觉得他说了两小时。
I don't think he said two.
我不觉得他说了两小时。
I don't think he said two.
我不认为他说的是二。
I don't think he said two.
我在说
I'm saying
现在是三。
three now.
我认为他说的是一，而且我觉得一很好。
I think he said one and I think that was One is good.
所以我需要这一小时来专注于自己和我的心理健康，他们让我听我的播客。
So I need this hour to focus on myself and my mental health and they're making me, you know, listen to my podcast.
那么问题可能是，这样可以吗？
And the question might be, is that okay?
这样可以吗？
Is that okay?
我们可以为你做些什么来实现这一点？
And what can we do for you to have that?
所以我在增加
So I'm adding
这一点。
to that.
那这样可以吗？
So is that okay?
为了实现这一点，我可以做些什么？
And what can I do in order for that to happen?
当她说这些的时候，你有什么感受？
What does that feel like to you when she says that?
这和平时的情况感觉有什么不同吗？
Does that feel different from how it normally goes?
有一点。
A little bit.
是的。
Yeah.
是吗？
Yeah?
对。
Yeah.
我也有一套日程安排。
I'm also on a schedule.
对吧？
Right?
我正在处理很多事情，当有人突然说，嘿。
There's there's a lot of things that I'm trying to manage and when it's just like, hey.
比如，我需要一小时，而我只是想，嗯，我想给你，但我九点有个会议，接下来三个小时还得工作，你知道的，我更倾向于按日程行事，所以很难随意离开座位，或者在一天中随机抽出一小时来
Like, I need an hour here, and I'm just like, well, I wanna give it to you, but I don't you know, I have a meeting at nine, and then I have to get work done from the next three hours, and then I you know, I'm more of, like, on a schedule, and it's it's tough for me to maybe just step away from my desk or just do something just randomly in the day of like an hour of
好的。
Okay.
所以你所要求的，我想让你从这次对话中带走两点。
So what you're requesting, the two things I want you to take away from this.
第一点是，这种方法有什么不同？
One is, how does the approach differ?
你说它有点帮助。
It helped a little bit you said.
那么，这种方法的一些实际部分是什么？
And then also, what are some of the the practical parts of this?
比如，当你来找我时，我不能立刻放下所有事情。
Like, for example, when you approach me, I can't necessarily just drop everything on a dime.
所以你在笑，因为听起来这正是你一直要求的。
So you're smiling because it sounds like that's what you've asked been asking for.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以你能理解，他正在努力，他希望你能留出时间给我，他也需要一些自己的时间，但没被考虑到的是，他不能就这样突然做到。
So you can understand that that he's trying and he wants you to have me time and he needs some me time, but what's not being taken to account is he can't just do it spontaneously like that.
所以你能找到一种方式，让他不会反过来争辩说‘不行，这也不行，那也不行’，然后你感到被堵住，他也感到被堵住，最后我们根本就没完成这次交流。
So can you find a way to so that he doesn't then argue back, well, can't, and this and that, and then you feel shut down, and then he feels shut down, and then it's like we didn't even do this interaction.
所以你要换一种方式提问，确保提前一晚就问，比如：‘嘿，我有个想法。’
So you're gonna ask differently, and you're going to make sure that you ask maybe the night before, like, hey, here's what I'm thinking.
这样可行吗？
Does this work?
我想让你们俩亲身体验一下，那样会是什么样子。
And I want you guys to see what that would be like.
我想让你们看到，当这是一个请求而不是命令时，会发生什么。
And I want you to see what happens when it's a request and not a demand.
因为刚才你们演的时候，那是一个命令。
Because when you acted it out, it was a demand.
当你按照他说的去做时，效果会更好，刚才那种方式就是一个请求。
When you did what he said, might work better and it worked slightly better, that was a request.
所以这里有一个例子。
So here's one example.
通常，人们对事情的看法非常不同，而这真的对他们很有帮助。
Normally, people have very different ideas about things and it really helps them.
这两个人面临的是完全相同的问题。
These two have exactly the same issue.
所以这个练习有点不同，但我希望这两个收获会对你们有帮助。
So this exercise was a little bit different, but I hope these two takeaways are gonna be helpful.
有些人说好的。
Some act Alright.
谢谢大家上台参与。
Thank you guys for coming up.
大家有没有什么想说的？
Do you guys Everyone.
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