马修·麦康纳：有意义生活的关键（爱、信仰、家庭与将失败转化为成长）

内在的天空更有一种磁力般的吸引力去理解。

The inner sky would be more of a magnetic pull to understand.

听到了。

Heard.

如果这样能帮助理解的话。

If that helps makes sense.

是的，这样说得通。

Yes it does.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以这些小小的心态，我觉得正如你之前说的，你把中年危机改称为中年机遇。

And so these little mindsets I feel, it's what you said earlier, you change your language about midlife crisis to midlife opportunity.

这种语言的转变对思维来说是革命性的。

That language shift is revolutionary for the mind.

这太疯狂了，不是吗？

It's wild, isn't it?

术语、处方的定义，或者只是一个词。

The vernacular, the prescription's definition or just a word.

我曾经经历过战争，过去四十年里，我一直最难应对‘谦逊’这个词。

I had the war I had I've had the hardest time for forty years dealing with the word humility.

继续说。

Go on.

得谦虚一点，马修。

Gotta be humble, Matthew.

得谦虚一点。

Gotta be humble.

我们都得谦虚。

We gotta be all humble.

我的肩膀就会开始塌陷。

My shoulders would start to cave.

我的头也开始低下去。

My head would start to go down.

我变得被动了。

I was I became passive.

轮到我的时候，我没有抓住那个机会。

I had the moment where it was my turn, and I and I didn't take the opportunity.

我有一种错误的谦逊感，不。

I had a false sense of modesty of no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

你去吧。

You you you go.

或者就是那个在你前面、在停车标志处说‘不’的人。

Or it's that that that person that's that that that's at the in front of you at the stop sign that says, no.

你可以走了。

You can go.

现在轮到你了。

And now it's your turn.

可以走。

Can go.

就像是，不，该你走了。

It's like, no, it's your turn to go.

就像是，别坐在那儿一直告诉每个人，那是虚假的谦虚。

It's like, don't sit there and keep telling every single, that's a false modesty.

就像是，现在你可以走了。

It's like, went, now you can go.

别让他们都过去，或者差点开始按喇叭。

Don't let them all go through or almost start honking the horn.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

直到我听到一个定义，说谦逊就是承认自己还有很多要学习的东西。

Until I heard a definition that was humility is admitting you have more to learn.

我一听到这句话，就心想：哦，哦，我明白了。

And as soon as I heard that, I went, oh, oh, I'm in.

我认同。

I purchase.

现在我的下巴抬起来了，心情高涨，肩膀也挺直了。

Now my chin's up, my heart's high, my shoulders are back.

我承认，我还有很多要学习，但现在我有了继续前进的自信。

And I admit, I've got a lot more to learn, but now I've got the confidence to move forward.

但我之前并没有那种顿悟的感觉。

And I didn't get that click.

那只是一句定义而已。

Was just a definition.

脆弱性是另一个词，它的含义有些模糊，有些人很难把它和感伤混为一谈。

Vulnerability is another word that kind of has a mingling definition that some people are hard to take at a or sentimentality.

情感和情感做作是不同的。

It's different between sentiment and sentimentality.

我们都想保持谦逊，但没人想被羞辱。

And we all want to be humble, but nobody wants to be humiliated.

它们不是同一个词吗？

Well, aren't they of the same word?

你知道吗，我的意思是，是的，仅仅是一个定义的细微差别。

You know, I mean, yeah, one little flick of a definition.

我们发现你知道什么吗？

We found you know what?

卡米尔和我，在枪击事件后去华盛顿讨论枪支管控时，我们说，不要称之为枪支管控，尤其是当我们与一些极右翼人士交谈时，他们喜欢的一个词——没错，不是‘管控’，没人想要强制命令，但我们称之为枪支责任。

Camille and I, when we went to DC with the gun control after the shooting, we said, instead of calling it gun control, and we're talking to especially some people on the far right, the word they love, which is true, not control, nobody wants a mandate, but we call it gun responsibility.

哦，哦，他们举起了手，说：我支持责任。

Oh, oh, they're raising their hand and go, I'm all for responsibility.

你这是什么意思？

What do you mean?

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

但‘控制’这个词，他们一听就不想再听别的了。

But the word control, they're, I'm not listening to another word.

控制是我所不想要的。

Control is what I don't want.

是的。

Yeah.

但你说，叫它责任吧。

But you say, call it responsibility.

哦，现在我愿意跟你谈了。

Oh, now I'll talk to you.

真惊人，是吧？这个词竟然能造成伤害。

It's amazing how Yeah, it works hurts.

你并不知道别人对它的定义是什么。

And you don't know what someone else's definition is.

他们对这个词的理解可能完全不同于他们的成长经历、所遭遇的事情、父母的教导、学校的影响，以及当他们以那种方式行事或生活时，这个词在他们生命中赋予了什么意义。

They may have a completely different definition of that by how they grew up, what they experienced, what their parents taught them, what school, how that word, what that gave them in their life when they thought they were acting that way or living that way.

确实如此，真的非常对。

It's so true, it's so true.

关于谦逊，这个例子太棒了。

And that's such a great example with humility.

我学到的关于谦逊的最喜爱的定义是：永远对自己诚实。

My favorite definition that I learned about humility was always being honest with yourself.

所以，谦逊就是对自己诚实。

And so it's like humility is being honest with yourself.

所以我在这方面擅长，但在这方面却不那么

So I'm good at this and I'm not so

擅长。

good at this.

这方面。

This.

在这方面我很擅长，我可以对此充满信心，而这方面还需要一些改进，你知道的？

Great at this and I can be confident about it and this needs a bit of work, you know?

对，没错。

And so Right.

如果我能对自己诚实，那就是谦逊，因为我接受自己还有很多需要学习的地方，是的。

If I can be honest with myself, then that's humility because I'm accepting that there's more I need to learn Yeah.

但我也有一些可以贡献的东西。

But there is something that I have to offer.

嗯。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个词，你知道吗？我非常喜欢确定感。

I love the word, you know, I love to be certain.

对。

Yes.

有时候我会把我的喜好误认为是自私，我非常推崇‘自私’这个词。

Sometimes I mistake my, I love to be, I'm a big fan of the word selfish.

我的意思是，我仍在重新定义这一点。

I mean, I'm still into redefining this.

我的牧师告诉我：上帝啊，你正在把一块巨大的方石推上一座非常陡峭的山。

And my pastor told me, God, hey, you're pushing a large square rock up a very steep hill.

但你知道，即使从圣经的角度来看，也要待人如己，爱你的邻居如同爱自己。

But you know, even biblically speaking, to unto others that you would have them do unto Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

这在我看来完全是自私的。

That seems to me purely selfish.

我认为真正的宗教极其自私。

Believe seems to me that real religion is extremely selfish.

现在这样生活，如果我们相信，无论是业力还是来世，你最终都会得到回报。

Living a way now, if we believe that you will whether it's karma wise in life or whether it's life after this life, that you will be rewarded later.

这种预期、这种延迟满足、我们所做的牺牲和后果。

That projection, that delayed gratification, sacrifices, and consequences we make.

也许我们现在所做的牺牲，是为了二十年后给我们的孩子更好的生活。

Maybe it's one we make now to give our children a better life two decades from now.

这难道不是最自私的吗？

Isn't that the most selfish?

这难道比只为了自己，而牺牲邻居或亲人的未来还要自私吗？

Isn't that more selfish than doing only for I at the sake of my neighbor or my loved one's future?

在我看来。

Seem to me.

是的。

Yeah.

也许我用词不当，有人告诉我，但我还是坚持用这个词。

And maybe I'm using the wrong maybe I'm using the wrong word, I'm told sometimes, But I'm sticking with it.

是的。

Yeah.

是的，但你知道，我喜欢确定性。

Yeah, but you know, the certainty, I like to know.

我想知道真相。

I want to be in the know.

我也想知道我所不知道的事情，而且是必须知道。

I also want to damn well be in the know about what I don't know.

是的。

Yeah.

那部分就是谦逊。

That's part that humility.

知道什么

Know what

我的意思是？

I mean?

我的意思是，人们常说别太把自己当回事。

Like, I I mean, you know, they say don't take yourself seriously.

不。

No.

要非常认真地对待自己。

Take yourself real seriously.

是的。

Yeah.

而且也要认真对待幽默感。

And also take sense of humor seriously.

是的。

Yes.

而且也要认真对待喜剧。

And also take comedy very seriously.

是的。

Yeah.

要认真对待大笑。

Take guffaws very seriously.

是的。

Yeah.

它们确实会发生。

They happen.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道的？

You know?

嗯。

Yeah.

我喜欢你的，你刚才提到了，你在谈论因果报应。

I loved your, you just referenced it, you were talking about karma.

我喜欢你对因果报应运作方式的重新定义。

I loved your redefinition of how karma works.

所以你在书里写，当你不对别人好时，基本上可以肯定别人也不会对你好，但如果你对别人好

So in the book you write, when you don't do good to others it's guaranteed basically that they won't do good to you, but if you do good to others

不是保证。

Not a guarantee.

这并不是保证他们会，他们还是会

It's not a guarantee that they'll They'll still look

对你好，

good to you,

但是。

but.

宇宙会做出回应。

The universe will respond.

是的。

Yeah.

沿着这个思路。

Along those lines.

是的。

Yeah.

我这是凭记忆说的，我谈的就是这种重新定义。

And I'm doing it from memory, that's what I'm talking about redefinitions.

它一直留在我的记忆里，因为我觉得你刚刚揭开了我们对因果报应的错误理解的面纱，那就是：我善待别人，别人就会善待我。

It stayed with me because I thought you've just pierced the veil of our false understanding with karma, which is if I do good to people, they do good to me.

对。

Right.

如果我对别人不好，别人也会对我不好。

And if I do bad people, they do bad to me.

所以我期待当我做好事时，

So I'm expecting that when I do good With

一个兄弟。

a bro quo.

你会对我好，但我们都知道这并不奏效，不。

You'll do good to me and we all know that doesn't work like No.

我心想，哇，这真的戳中了重点，因为现在我仍然可以选择对别人好，知道好事会以其他方式回到我身上。

And I thought, wow, this really pierces the point because now I can still choose to be good to others knowing that good comes to me in other ways.

对。

Right.

但我无需从那个人身上找到它。

But I don't have to find it through that person.

我们可以相信这一点吗？

And can we trust that?

我们可以无条件地相信这一点吗？

Can we trust that unconditionally?

对我们自己而言，这又回到了自私的问题。

For ourselves again, that goes back to selfish for me.

对我们自己而言，这种投射看起来像是延迟满足。

For ourselves again, the projection, it seems like delayed gratification.

我们真正试图教给孩子的，正是成年人自己最需要学习的东西。

The thing that we really try to teach our children is what we still have the most to learn about as adults.

后果是什么？

What are the consequences?

我们能否更相信今天选择的后果？

Can we believe more in the consequences of our choices today?

如果我们今天做出更好的选择，能否更信任和相信，这种选择终将为他人、也为自己带来回报？

Can we have more trust and belief in the choice I make today, if I make the better choice, it's going to reap rewards on others, including myself, down the line.

但我们不喜欢考虑现在之外的事情。

But we don't like to think past now.

如果你成功了，并且在生活中游刃有余，你就有权进行长期思考。

If you're successful and you're fluent in life, you have the luxury of long term thinking.

是的。

Yes.

有些人身处困境，这倒是个值得讨论的话题——有些人在困境中还谈什么延迟满足，别逗了。

Some people in misery, which this would be fun to talk about, some in the misery, they're in delayed gratification, my ass.

你到底在说什么？

What you talking about?

我今晚正试着做点什么。

I'm get trying something tonight.

我希望明天早上能醒来，把饭端上桌。

I hope we can wake up tomorrow morning and put some food on the table.

嗯。

Yeah.

对身处困境的人来说，谈论延迟满足是一种奢侈吗？

Is it a luxurious thing to talk about delayed gratification?

谈论做出牺牲、做对自己有利同时也对最多人有利的事，这是一种奢侈吗？

Is it a luxurious thing to talk about making sacrifices and doing what's well for yourself but also well for the most amount of others?

这对身处困境的人而言是一种奢侈吗？

Is that a luxury to someone in misery?

因为他们根本难以理解这一点，而我同意你的看法，我明白。

Because they sure as hell have a hard time understanding it, and I'm with you going, I understand.

你让我谈谈如何实现世界和平，而你却连房租都付不起？

You want me to talk about what we can do to get peace in the world, and you're trying to pay your rent?

你心里想的是：我不想听这些。

You're going, I don't wanna hear about that.

我这里有一整个家庭要照顾。

I've got a household here.

我有两个卧室。

I got two bedrooms.

我有五个孩子。

I got five kids.

我刚被解雇了。

I just got fired.

你还想跟我谈对最多人来说最好的主意是什么？

And you wanna talk to me about what the best idea would be for the most amount of people?

就在这里。

Right here.

是的。

Yeah.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我理解这一点。

I understand that.

当然。

Absolutely.

那然后呢？你对此该怎么办？

I And fully then what do you do about that then?

所以你理解了，但是

So you understand it, but

我努力保持谦逊，明白你不能只是以高高在上的姿态说话。

I try to be humble with it and go, you can't just, you know, speak trying I come across as speaking from on high.

我认为，当你谈论那些处于困境或痛苦中的人时。

I think, you know, you talk about someone in in a position who's lost or in pain.

再者，你跟他们谈投射，谈对未来的展望。

Again, you talk to him about projection and projecting further in life.

他们却会说：你在说什么？

They're like, what are you talking about?

但对于那些人，当我自己也曾身处那种境地，感到迷茫、沮丧，根本没有余力或精力去想那么远的时候，你会说什么？

But to those people and when I myself have been there and trying to and confused and frustrated and don't have the luxury or the bandwidth to think that far ahead and try to go what?

好吧。

Alright.

那么，下一个最好的正确决定是什么？

So what's the next best right decision?

你也不知道那是什么？

What's and you don't know what that is?

嗯。

Yeah.

好吧，我不知道。

Well, don't know.

这就是问题之一。

That's one of the problems.

好吧，你最忠于什么？

Alright, what are you are you most faithful to?

就做那一件。

Do that one.

只做一件。

Just one.

我们一个一个来。

Let's just go one in a row.

你在想什么？

What are you thinking about?

然后，如果。

And if, then.

不，就一个一个来。

No, just do one in a row.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

对，对，

Yeah, yeah,

就从一个开始，然后停在那里。

And just start with one and just stop there.

我记得卡特里娜飓风后我情绪很低落。

I remember being down after Katrina.

我们在密西西比州打高尔夫时，来到了一片区域，那里所有的房子都被摧毁了。

We were in golf in Mississippi, and we were on this property where all these houses were wiped out.

我们到了一处地方，一位女士的房子只剩下一块水泥地，堆着一些垃圾和杂物。

And we were in this one place, this lady's house was just a slate of cement with some rubbish and stuff.

房子已经被完全夷为平地。

It had been completely knocked down.

她回来了，大约八十岁，还穿着睡衣。

And she came back, and she was about 80 years old, she was still in her nightgown.

她第一次看到这景象，只是说：‘哦。’

And she'd seized it, saw it for the first time, and she was just like, oh.

我们问她：‘你在找什么？’

And we asked her, what are looking for?

她说：‘我只是想找到一张照片，也许在相册里。’

She goes, well, I I just wanna find a picture, maybe in a scrapbook.

所以我的孙子孙女说我不住这儿了，但那会帮助我记住。

So my grandchildren say I don't live here, but that's that will that will help me.

然后我坐在那里和她聊天，我就问她：你现在感觉怎么样？

And and then I was sitting there talking to her, and I was like, what are you feeling right now?

她说：我只是想告诉你，如果我迈一步，我的右脚该放在哪儿？

She goes, I just I just can you tell me where to put my right foot if I take a step?

嗯。

Yeah.

我只是需要，嗯。

I just need Yeah.

地面是结实的吗？

Is it solid?

会不会塌陷？

Is it gonna cave?

我会不会绊倒？

Am I gonna trip?

你能告诉我吗？我现在连看都不想看。

Can you just tell me, I don't even wanna look right now.

我能相信你吗？如果我朝这个方向迈一步，我的脚会稳稳地踩在平地上吗？

Can I trust you to tell me that if I step this way, one step, my foot will be solid and flat?

我不会滑倒，也不会有危险。

And I won't slip and it won't be dangerous.

我不会踩到玻璃片。

I won't step on a piece of glass.

它不会……这仅仅是一步而已。

It's not gonna And that's just one step.

这是一个处于痛苦中的人在说：只要告诉我一步稳当的路就行。

That's a person in misery going, just show me one solid step.

我不想了解发生了什么。

I don't want to know what's going on.

不，不是一小时后会发生什么，也不是三十分钟后会发生什么。

No, not what's happening in an hour, not what's happening in thirty minutes.

只要给我一步稳当的路就行。

Just give me one solid step.

是的。

Yeah.

对于一个身处痛苦中的人来说，这似乎是一个不错的起点。

That seems to be a place to start for someone in misery.

是的。

Yeah.

它没有能力进行展望，或者太过混乱，承受了太多压力和痛苦，无法考虑长远。

That doesn't have the ability to project or is so confused and it's got too much coming down on you, too much pain to think down the line.

如果你这样做了一次，然后重新调整，再提出同样的问题。

And then if you do that once, then you reset and you bring up the same question.

好吧，下一步是什么？

All right, what's the next one step?

一次一步，反复进行，而不是想着，哦，我要把一串步骤连起来。

One in a row over and over instead of, oh, I'm going to put a string together.

不，一次一步，反复进行，然后抬头看看，也许你会说，看啊。

No, Do one in a row over and over and look up and maybe you can go, look at that.

连续十个。

10 in a row.

我们有进展了。

We got somewhere.

是的。

Yeah.

但说起来容易做起来难，你知道的？

But that's easier said than done, you know?

不，就那样做。

No, hit that.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

不，我太喜欢了。

No, I love that.

我觉得你一针见血。

I think you hit the nail on the head.

这是我们教孩子一步一个脚印的方式。

It's how we teach children to take one step at a time.

这是我们作为人建立新习惯的方式，我们一天一天地来。

It's how we build new habits as people, we do one day at a time.

我认为，一旦我们开始思考，这就是新年决心失败的原因，也是为什么人们难以实现‘我要一辈子做这件事’或‘我要今年全年都做这件事’这类宏大承诺的原因，人们在誓言和承诺上都会遇到困难。

I think as soon as we start thinking it's why New Year's resolutions fail, it's why these big claims of I'm gonna do this for the rest of my life or I'm gonna do this for the rest of the year, why people struggle with vows and commitments or whatever it may be.

这是因为你基于少量信息做出了长期决定。

It's because you're making this long term decision based on small amounts of information.

你说得对，我认为在一个人仅能迈出一步、站稳脚跟时，就强迫他超越这个限度是不具同情心的，我非常喜欢这个回答。

And you're spot on that I think it's not compassionate to challenge someone beyond that one step, that footing, that they're just, I love that answer.

我认为，最富有同理心、最富有同情心、最充满爱的做法，就是教会别人如何迈出下一步，而不施加任何必须爬完整座山的压力。

I think it's the most empathetic, compassionate, and loving thing you can do is to teach someone how to take the next step without any pressure to climb the whole mountain.

那么，你认为在牢记大局的同时一步一个脚印，之间的平衡点在哪里？

So what then would you say is the balance between keeping the big picture in mind but taking one step at a time?

嗯。

Mhmm.

那种冲动、意志、动力，那种想要行动的欲望，不，我是在追逐我超越性的自我。

The urge, the will, the incentive, the being to go, no, I'm chasing my transcendent self.

我试图变得更像神，不管那意味着什么。

I'm trying to be more godlike, whatever that is.

这是一个宏大而宏大的愿景。

Which is a big, big picture.

我试图像自己渴望进入天堂那样生活，或者类似的东西。

I'm trying living as if I want to get to heaven or whatever.

我想以一种让我感到安心的方式行事。

I wanna act in a way that I have good comfort.

这些都是宏大的理念。

Those are big ideas.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，你心里是怎么想的？

So how do you what's the what's in your mind?

这两者之间的互动是怎样的？

What's the dance between that?

是的。

And yes.

但要一步一个脚印，低下头来做事。

But put your head down one step at a time.

在播客《健康那些事》中，我们探讨所有让你夜不能寐的健康问题。

On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.

是的，我是一名医生。

Yes, I'm Doctor.

我是普里扬卡·瓦利，一位双认证的医生。

Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician.

我是哈里·昆达博卢，一名喜剧演员，曾经在凌晨三点搜索过‘我是不是得了坏血病’。

And I'm Hari Kundabolu, a comedian and someone who once Googled, Do I have scurvy at three a.

M？

M?

在《健康那些事》中，我们以不同的方式探讨健康问题。

On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way.

这不仅关乎我们能做些什么来改善健康。

It's not only about what we can do to improve our health.

还关乎我们的健康状况揭示了我们怎样的生活方式。

But also what our health says about us and the way we're living.

就像我们那一期关于糖尿病的节目。

Like our episode where we look at diabetes.

在美国，我说的是，百分之五十的美国人处于糖尿病前期。

In The United States, I mean, fifty percent of Americans are pre diabetic.

二型糖尿病有多大的可预防性？

How preventable is type two?

非常大。

Extremely.

或者我们对芒果有多么神奇的深入分析。

Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are.

天啊，很难向世界其他人解释，你喜欢的芒果其实很棒，因为芒果真的太神奇了，但你根本不知道。

Oh, it's hard to explain to rest of the world that you like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but, like, you don't even know.

你根本不知道。

You don't know.

你根本不知道。

You don't know.

这将是一段有趣的旅程，记得收听。

It's going to be a fun ride, so tune in.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《健康那些事》。

Listen to health stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

嗨。

Hi.

我是丹尼·夏皮罗，热门播客《家庭秘密》的主持人。

I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, Family Secrets.

我们在车里，突然放起了《滚石》这首歌，他说，歌词里有一句是关于你妈妈的。

We were in the car, like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

我说，什么？

And I said, what?

如果我觉得不被接纳，我会选择一个别人无法拥有的身份。

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

我知道半夜发生了一些事，但我抓不住那到底是什么。

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

这些只是我将在《家庭秘密》第十三季中所呈现的一些感人而重要的故事。

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming thirteenth season of Family Secrets.

无论你是从第一季就一直陪伴着我，还是刚刚加入《家庭秘密》大家庭，我们都非常高兴有你的加入。

Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one, or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us.

我将深入探讨秘密那不可思议的力量——那些塑造我们身份、考验我们关系，并最终揭示我们真实自我的秘密。

I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are.

请在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听播客的任何平台收听《家庭秘密》。

Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿，你好。

Hey there.

我是杰西·米尔斯医生。

Doctor Jesse Mills here.

我是加州大学洛杉矶分校健康中心男性诊所的主任，我想向你们介绍我的新播客《邮局》。

I'm the director of the men's clinic at UCLA Health, and I wanna tell you about my new podcast called the mailroom.

我是乔丹，这个节目的制片人。

And I'm Jordan, the show's producer.

和很多男性一样，我已经很多年没去看医生了。

And like a lot of guys, I haven't been to the doctor in many years.

我会提出那些我们其实应该问但没问的问题。

I'll be asking the questions we probably should be asking but aren't.

因为男性通常只有在脸上的部分掉下来或者骨头断了的时候才会去看医生。

Because guys usually don't go to the doctor unless a piece of their face is hanging off or they've broken a bone.

要看是哪根骨头。

Depends which bone.

天啊。

Wow.

确实如此。

That's true.

每周，我们都会深入探讨男性健康的独特领域，涵盖睾酮、健身、饮食、生育以及卧室里发生的事情。

Every week, we're breaking down the unique world of men's health from testosterone and fitness to diets and fertility and things that happen in the bedroom.

你是说睡觉吗？

You mean sleep?

对。

Yeah.

差不多吧，乔丹。

Something like that, Jordan.

我们会用通俗易懂的语言讲解科学知识，为你提供真正关心问题的切实答案。

We'll talk science without the jargon and get you real answers to the stuff you actually wonder about.

无论你是27岁、97岁，还是中间的任何年龄，都会觉得有趣。

It's gonna be fun, whether you're 27, 97, or somewhere in between.

男性健康不仅仅是六块腹肌和补品。

Men's health is about more than six packs and supplements.

它关乎精力、自信与连接。

It's about energy, confidence, and connection.

我们不仅希望你活得更久。

We don't just want you to live longer.

我们希望你活得更好。

We want you to live better.

所以请前往 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客或你收听喜爱节目的任何平台的邮件室查看。

So check out the mail room on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

你说这些的时候，我想起了《薄伽梵歌》中的一句优美经文，这是来自东方的经典。

As you're saying that I'm reminded of a beautiful line in scripture, this comes from the Bhagavad Gita, the Eastern text.

这部经典不是一本规则书或原则书，它的背景设定在战场上。

And the text is not a rule book or a principle book, it's based on a battlefield.

主角是当时最伟大的弓箭手，却正经历信仰危机。

And the character is the greatest archer of his time and he's having a crisis of faith.

当他手中的弓箭滑落时，他必须与自己的家人作战——他们是邪恶的一方，而他是正义的一方，但他却感到无力去夺取那些与他一同长大的人的生命。

And the bow slipping from his hands, he's gonna have to fight his family who are the bad side and he's the good side and he doesn't feel capable of taking the lives of people that he grew up with.

这就是那个场景。

And that's the scene.

他正在与上帝交谈，而上帝恰好是他的战车御者。因此，上帝正驾着他的战车，在两军之间停了下来，他们展开了长达七百节、四十五分钟的对话。

And he's talking to God who happens to be his charioteer, So God's actually riding his chariot and he pauses in between the two armies and they have this dialogue which is 700 verses, forty five minutes long in time.

上帝的第一条指令是：想着我，然后战斗。

And God's number one instruction is think of me and fight.

是的。

Yeah.

它是

It's

就像想着我然后

like think of me and

战斗。

fight.

是的，就像我希望你想着我，然后履行你的职责，迈出那一步。

Yeah, It's like I want you to think of me and then do your duty and take that step.

对。

Right.

所以，正如你所说的，这里存在一个悖论：我们以为必须做出选择，但实际上，这个指示本身——神在文本中重复了两次——就是：想着我，然后战斗。

And so, you know, talking about what you're saying, it's like this paradox where we think we have to choose, actually the instruction in and of itself, he repeats that twice, God repeats that twice in the text, it's like think of me and fight.

所以，想着我，去做吧，想着我，迈出那一步。

So think of me and do a dude, think of me and take the step.

因为如果你想着我并迈出一步，你就会有信仰和信任，同时也会感受到自己的行动与自信。

Because if you think of me and take the step, you'll have faith and trust but you'll also feel your action and the confidence.

但如果你只想着我，却只是坐在那里，那是行不通的。

But if you only think of me and you just sit there, that's not gonna work.

对，让我们来探讨一下我们误解的两种极端情况。

Yeah, like let's explore those two extremes that where we don't get it.

一种是宿命论者。

One are the fatalist.

是的。

Yes.

我不知道，岛叶。

I don't know, insula.

等等，我们必须把手放在方向盘上。

Wait a minute, we gotta have our hands on the wheel.

是的。

Yes.

你知道。

You know

我的意思你懂吗？

what I mean?

我们拥有选择的自由，你知道的。

We have our freedom of choice and you know.

那么，我们在哪里过于依赖命运了呢？

So where is it that we go, you rely on fate too much.

是的。

Yes.

而我们在哪里能意识到，我对自己的一切完全负责呢？

And where is it we're like, no, I am fully responsible for everything.

下一步才是最重要的。

The next step is all that matters.

你看不到任何地平线。

You don't see any horizon.

没错。

Exactly.

你什么也看不到。

You don't see any.

你没有在追求任何东西。

You're not pursuing anything.

你根本不是空军、海军或陆战队。

You're just not an Air Force, Navy, or Marine.

你是陆军。

You're Army.

你只在地面上打交道。

You're dealing with the ground only.

你知道的。

You know

我的意思你懂吗？

what I mean?

说到太空，你知道我说的是什么意思吗？

Talk about space, you know what mean?

是的。

Yeah.

当这两种极端感觉失衡时，就是这种情况。

That's the two extremes when it feels like they can be out of balance.

但这种中间的悖论，正是我们许多人所寻求、追求并试图去生活的。

But that paradox in the middle is what so many of us are seeking and pursue and try to live at.

但有什么切实可行的方法能让我们保持在中间状态，同时感受到两者，既想到上帝，又在战斗？

But what are practical ways to keep that in the middle where we're feeling both at the same time, where we're thinking of God and fighting.

那个古老的南方谚语是什么来着？

The old what's that old Southern adage?

那个老人和男孩走路，龙卷风来了，男孩跪下来祈祷，老人却说：快起来，这种害怕时的祈祷现在一文不值。

The old man and the boy walking, here comes the tornado, and the boy drops on his knees to pray and he's like, get your butt up, Scared prayer ain't worth the damn right now.

我们得赶紧去找个避难所。

We got to go get shelter.

对，对，

Yeah, yeah,

还有些时候，我经历过尼采式的不可知论阶段，那时我觉得一切都靠自己。

And then other times and I've had my Nietzschean agnostic years where I was like, it's all me.

对，对。

Yes, yes.

一切都取决于我自己的意志。

It is all about my hands on the damn will.

现在我并不后悔那些阶段。

Now I don't regret those.

作为信徒，我不觉得上帝因此生我的气。

And as a believer, I didn't feel spiritually, God was mad at me for that.

我觉得他脸上带着一丝狡黠的微笑。

I thought he had a wry smile on his face.

他就像在说：干得漂亮，抓住了方向盘。

He was like, way to get your hands on the wheel.

我真希望你们其他人也能多这样。

I could use some more of that from some more of y'all.

但与此同时

But at the same

时间，是的。

time Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你以为你掌控了一切。

You thought you had it.

我以为一切都完了

I thought it was all up

到，是啊。

to Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我很感激这份努力。

But I appreciate the effort.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我记得那种感激的感觉，当时我确实需要它，因为我对自己太宽容了，我的底盘边缘有点松动，于是我对自己说：‘得照照镜子了，麦康纳hey。’

But it was it it was I remember the feeling of appreciation and I needed it at the time because I was giving myself too much amnesty in places, and I was getting my chassis was a little loose on the edges, and I was like, well, you gotta look in the mirror, McConaughey.

抓住该死的方向盘，伙计。

Grab the damn wheel, man.

它可能会就这样任由命运摆布。

It could, like, just let it all slide on fate.

嗯。

Yeah.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

是的，是的，完全懂。

Yes, yes, absolutely.

我认为，之所以有这么多精神和信仰传统，比如周日去教堂、去寺庙之类的，是因为那天你全心全意地投入信仰，坚定地信任，然后接下来六天你去工作。

I think there's a reason why so many spiritual and faith traditions, you went to church on Sunday or a temple or whatever, it's like that was the day where you were fully dedicated in faith, aligned in trust, and then you went and worked six days.

你带着那份信念，并努力把它当作提醒，但之后你又回到了原来的状态。

And you carried that with you and you tried to practice it as a reminder, but then you went back.

然后你又被提醒，接着又过了六天的自我状态。

And then you got reminded and then you did six days of yourself.

到了周四晚上，你就想：我需要周日来

About Thursday evening you were like, I need Sunday to

恢复。

come.

是的，我觉得正是在这种情况下，第三个空间消失了。

Yeah, And I feel like that's where that third space has been lost.

就像一百年前，第三空间理论中，我们有三个空间：教堂、工作和家庭。

It's like, you know, a 100 ago, third space theory, we had three spaces, we had church, work, and home.

随着时间推移，后来只剩下工作和家庭；再往后，经过疫情，就只剩下家庭了。

And then fast forward as time went on, you had work and home, and then fast forward after the pandemic and you just have home.

对。

Right.

它们各自都有其意义。

And they all had a purpose.

无论是教堂、寺庙还是社区， whatever it was。

It was like church or temple or community or whatever it was.

那是一个让你能回顾生活、退后一步的地方，因为在家里你必须当爸爸或妈妈。

It was a place that gave you the space to look back on your life take a step back because at home you have to be dad or mom.

那是一个实体的空间。

It was a physical place.

那是一个能让你提出不同问题的实体空间。

It was a physical place that gave you space to ask different questions.

因为在工作中，你只关心怎么赚更多的钱？

Because at work you're just asking how do I make more money?

在家中，你关心的是怎么做一个更好的父母？

At home you're asking how do I be a better mom or dad?

但那些其他的呢？那些问题的空间在哪里？

But then what about how do I do all the other, where's the space for that question?

在这个时代，越来越少的人去教堂，也很少去寺庙。

So in this age where most people less than going to church less, they're going to the temples less.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你认为这有可能吗？

Is it possible, do you think?

或者，如果你认为这是可能的，我们该如何在没有第三空间仪式的情况下加以改善？

Or or or how can we improve if you do think it's possible without the ritual of that third space?

因为我理解这个概念，伙计。

Because I understand the concept, man.

当我感觉最有精神力量的时候，我整天都在祈祷。

When feel most spiritually strong, I'm all days of prayer.

是的，是的，当然。

Yes, yes, for sure.

每一次互动都是一种给予与索取，一种节奏——哦，我不必闭上眼睛。

Every interaction is a give and take and a rhythm of, oh, I didn't have to close my eyes.

但那个星期日的仪式，我确实需要让心灵高于头顶，以谦卑的姿态鞠躬，那时我看到了自己的客观性，仿佛从天空之眼俯视自己，心想：哦，你真的在做你认为自己在做的事吗？还是你可以更真诚地去做那件事？

Now, but that Sunday ritual where I did need to get my heart above my head in humility and bow in humility, I saw I've got objective and saw myself from an eye in the sky and was like, oh, are you doing you're quite doing, or you could do this thing that you think you're doing a little more truly.

你本可以更仁慈一些的。

You could have been more benevolent in that.

哦，但我需要那个。

Oh, was but I needed that.

但很多时候，我是说，那个仪式。

But but then a lot of times I mean, the ritual.

现在有太多人说，我不信教。

And so many people now go, I'm not religious.

我有灵性。

I'm spiritual.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我不信教。

I'm not religious.

我有灵性。

I'm spiritual.

我觉得有些人其实比他们自己以为的要更宗教化。

I think there's people that are a lot more religious than they think they are.

嗯。

Mhmm.

问题不在于物质本身，而在于我们对它的处理方式，我认为很多人正是在对抗这一点。

It's not it's not it's a material it's what we've done with it that I think a lot of people are fighting against.

当然。

Absolutely.

宗教，没错。

Religion infandis, yeah.

这个词源自拉丁语词根re和legare。

The word means from re, legare, the Latin root.

Legare意思是将事物联结在一起，re意思是再次。

Legare means to bind together, and re means again.

所以我听到很多人说他们有灵性、追求统一，我就想，这其实就是宗教。

So a lot of people that I hear saying I'm spiritual and I'm for unity, I'm like going, that's religion.

没错。

Yeah.

再次联结在一起，就是统一。

To bind together again, that's to unify.

是的。

Yeah.

但回到我们之前的想法，语言是有局限的，一旦一个词因过去的纷争而留下伤痕，它今天就变得不那么突出。

But going back to our earlier thought, language is limiting and once a word is scarred and wounded with battle wounds of the past, it becomes less prominent today.

你看，我是个原教旨主义者。

See I'm I'm a prescriptionist.

是的。

Yeah.

我总是回到这一点：我们别这样。

I keep going back like let's not Yeah.

我还不能放弃这个词的本义。

I'm not ready to give up on original.

是的。

Yes.

定义变得太快了。

Definitions so quickly.

是的。

Yes.

有时候我觉得自己就像在推一块方石头上山。

And I can get sometimes I'm pushing that square rock up the hill.

其他时候，他们只是去适应。

Other times they just go adapt.

不想被当成恐龙，对吧？

Don't want to be caught as a dinosaur, right?

那么，我们该如何再次坚持那些经得起时间考验的真理，尤其是精神层面的，同时又说：不，让我们适应和进化呢？

So how do we, again, where do we hold on to time and tested truths, spiritual ones in this sense, and still say, no, let's adapt and evolve.

现在人们在社会中的活动方式不同了。

People move around in society differently now.

也许我们不需要在周日保留第三个空间，但我们每天都会抽出时间冥想、祈祷。

Maybe we don't need the third space on a Sunday, but we take the time every day to meditate, to pray.

教会就是你所在的地方，它在大自然中。

And church is where you are, it's in nature.

我大部分的感悟都是在那里找到的。

That's where I find much of it.

这些是好的补充品吗？或者你觉得呢？

Are those or you think these are good supplements?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

我想知道你的想法。

I wanna know what you think.

我想说它们是，但我也不确定这种观念是从哪里演变来的。

I'd like to say they are, but I'm not sure where that evolved.

我仍然认为我们需要并渴望那种责任感、那种扶持、那种把握，哦，这是属于我的一天。

I still think we need and want the responsibility, the hand, the hold, the, oh, this is the day.

这是属于我的地方。

This is the place.

这是我前往的地方。

This is where I go.

这是我们所做的事情。

This is what we do.

我经常自己试着把床单短铺。

I try to short sheet that bed all the time myself.

我会做得更好，但我从未真正坚持过这个仪式。

I'm gonna know better, and I've never followed through on go forward with the ritual.

去吧。

Go.

我从未真正坚持过，然后离开时想着，六或一半。

I've never followed through on it and come away going, six or half.

我总是说，嗯，对。

I'm always like, yep.

嗯，对。

Yep.

得继续这么做啊，老兄。

Gotta keep doing that, man.

我正努力作为一个父亲、作为一家之主多这么做，但我做得并不够好。

And I'm trying to do that more as a father and, you know, head of the family, and I'm not doing the best job of it.

我理解这件事，但没错，这就是我们目前的状况。

And I understand this thing, but yeah, it's where we are.

这就是我们的思维方式。

It's how we think.

这就是我们表达善意的方式。

It's how we're gracious.

这就是我们心怀感恩的方式。

It's how we're thankful.

吃饭前，我们会聊聊一天的经历，或者讨论哲学和斯多葛学派。

Before meals, we talk about our day, or we talk about philosophy or stoicism.

我觉得，这些其实是一回事。

And I'm like, yeah, these are some of the same thing.

但真的是这样吗？

But are they?

我想，我是在找借口，因为哲学和宗教是不同的。

I'm kind of making an excuse, I think, because philosophy is different than religion.

尽管我所研究的宗教中，我最喜欢的部分是我能从中汲取一些东西，带入到日常生活中。

Although my favorite parts of what I've studied is religion is the stuff I can go, oh, I can take that into the week.

哦，我可以实际运用这些。

Oh, I can use that practically.

是的。

Yeah.

但我仍然对燃烧的荆棘、分开的海等事情感到困惑。

And I still have trouble with burning bushes and parted seas and stuff like that.

但这可能是我自身信仰的不足。

But that may be a failure of my own true faith.

这似乎是我的骄傲、实用主义，或者我对哲学以及我们生活的方式的信念所致，而我对这些始终充满兴趣。

That seems to be, maybe that's my own pride or my own pragmatism or my own belief in philosophy and the way we live life, which I'm eternally interested in.

但我认为我还没有走得足够远。

But I don't believe I'm going far enough.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得我对自己有所保留。

I think I'm short sheeting myself.

我觉得那里存在一个缺口，我想上帝会说：我欣赏你的努力。

I think there's a gap there, and I think God's going, I appreciate you trying.

你太骄傲了。

You had too much pride.

你还不够深入。

You're not going far enough yet.

你还没有完全 surrender 于信仰，完全相信信仰。

You haven't fully surrendered to the faith, to belief in faith.

这就是我的想法，我觉得你确实需要这样。

That's my and I think you do need that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我觉得，不管你周日早上多么疲惫。

My hunch is, I don't care how tired you are Sunday morning.

那就是你该做、应当做的事，你自己也知道。

That's where you should and ought to, and you know it.

嗯。

Yeah.

去吧。

Go.

因为这个原因。

For that reason.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这就是我的直觉。

So that's my hunch.

对对对。

Yeah yeah yeah.

我们想法一致。

We're aligned.

嗯。

Yeah.

我认为，我们今天可用的这些方式，只是肤浅的媒介，远无法传达物理社区中那种更深层次的连接与共鸣，那种来自源头、清晰直接的交流才真正有力。

I think that what we have available today are poor conduits of a far greater depth that you get from the physical community, the connection, the communion of a direct message that feels really clear and is from source.

这种力量我本人也亲身体验过。

Like there's a power in that that I've personally experienced too.

顺便说一句，我也一样，我和你是一样的。

And I've dabbled in both, by the way, I'm the same, I'm the same as you.

我住在一个没有像过去其他地方那样拥有社区支持的地方。

I live in a place where I don't have that community as I've had in other places that I've lived.

我不断找借口，寻找其他方式来为自己的修行开脱，因为我无法达到我渴望的那种深度。

I constantly make excuses and find other ways to justify my practice because I can't fully be at the depth that I'd like to be.

所以我这么做只是为了生存，为了保持联系。

And so I'm doing it too to survive and to stay connected.

但生存和 thriving 是有区别的。

But there's a difference between surviving and thriving.