罗伯特·格林：如何应对家人、朋友圈或工作中的消极人士

我很喜欢你刚才说的，一个人必须经历某些事才能让我们展现出这一面，这很可悲，但同时也说明这种品质始终存在于我们身上。

I liked what you said there, that it's it's sad that someone has to go through something for us to then show that sides of ourselves, which means that it's always there.

这意味着它是我们与生俱来的特质。

It means that it exists inherently within us.

是的。

Yeah.

你认为这是因为我们...你为什么觉得会这样？

Do you think it's because we, why do you think that is?

既然这种品质是与生俱来的，为什么我们不会时刻向所有人展现它？你觉得原因是什么？

Why do you think that is that if it's inherently there, we don't display it at all times to all people?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我的意思是，我们生来都具有共情能力。

I mean, we're all born with a capacity for empathy.

这个问题让我很感兴趣，因为当我与另一个人（比如我妻子）产生深刻连接时，那种感觉是一种极其强烈的情感。

It's something that interests me a lot because the feeling that I'm connecting very deeply to another person, let's say my wife, etcetera, is a very overpowering emotion.

这让我跳出自我的局限，通过她的眼睛看世界，而不是总把自己的想法投射到她身上。

It gets me out of myself, and I'm seeing the world through her eyes as opposed to me always projecting myself onto her.

这是一种非常动人的体验。

It's a very moving experience.

有时候你看电影时会发现自己沉浸在角色中。

And sometimes you go to a movie and you find yourself getting inside the characters.

你跳出了自我，对他们产生了共情。

You're getting outside of yourself, and you're feeling this empathy for them.

你与他们产生了认同感。

You're identifying with them.

这些都是非常强烈的情感。

These are all very powerful emotions.

对吧？

Right?

我们每个人都有这种能力。

And we all have the capacity for that.

但我们生活的这个世界实际上是一台机器，会钝化那些情感，那种共情能力。

But the world we live in is actually machinery to deaden those those emotions, that sense of empathy.

对吧？

Right?

它过分强调我们自己、我们的个性、我们是谁、我们的需求，以及我们想要和应得的关注。

It just puts so much emphasis on ourselves, on our individuality, on who we are, our needs, you know, our the attention that we want, that we deserve.

我们过于关注自己，以至于失去了那种想要理解他人的自然情感。

We're so focused on ourselves that that natural feeling of wanting to get inside of another person.

你知道吗，杰伊，这很奇怪，因为仔细想想，我们的内心生活其实相当乏味。

And, you know, it's very strange, Jay, because if you think about it, our inner lives are actually quite boring.

同样的想法、同样的情绪、同样的执念、同样的焦虑，一遍又一遍地重复。

The same thoughts repeat over and over and over again, the same emotions, the same preoccupations, the same anxieties.

而其他人，他们是如此不同。

And other people, they're so different.

他们拥有自己的世界。

They have their own worlds.

对吧？

Right?

他们就像...就像去另一个国家旅行一样。

They're like a it's like traveling to another country.

所以我们实际上应该更关注他人。

So we should actually be much more oriented towards other people.

我们本应天然地对他们的世界感兴趣，因为这能让我们走出自我。

We should have a natural interest in their world because it takes us out of ourselves.

这就像一种治疗。

It's like therapy.

但它被我们世界里的许多事物扼杀了——社交媒体、我们承受的压力、现代生活方式。

But it's been deadened by so many things in our world, by social media, by the pressures we're under, by just modern lifestyle.

于是每个人与生俱来的共情肌肉正在逐渐萎缩。

And so that empathetic muscle that everybody has is kind of atrophying.

但总有些时刻它会突然苏醒，让你觉得：天啊，我渴望这种感觉。

And yet there'll be moments where it kind of sparks to life, and you feel like, God, I want that.

我希望我的生活中有更多这样的时刻，我的世界里更多这样的体验。

I want more of that in my life, more of that in my world.

我该如何获得它？

How do I get it?

你每天重复最多的想法是什么？

What what would you say is your most repeated thought on a daily basis?

比如，我今天需要做什么？

Like, what do I need to do today?

我的日程安排是什么？

What's on my schedule?

对。

Yeah.

你懂吗？

You know?

所以，比如我在早上冥想时，我试图清空我的思绪，进入所谓的公案状态。

So, like, I'm meditating in the morning, and I'm trying to empty my mind, and I'm going into what's known as a koan.

对吧？

Right?

然后这些念头不断冒出来，真的很烦人。

And then these thoughts keep bubbling up, and they're so annoying.

这让你意识到自己思维的运作机制。

And it makes you aware of what of the machinery of your own mind.

所以回答你的问题，总是像'哦，你记得今天下午要打电话给这个人吗？'

And so as you to answer your question, it's always like, oh, did you remember that you have to call this person this afternoon?

你记得要修改那个预约吗？

Did you remember that you have to change that reservation?

你记得要做这个，那些日程安排的事情。

Do you remember that you have to do this, that scheduling things.

如此不重要，如此琐碎。

So unimportant, so trivial.

当我试图让思维开阔去接触宏大重要的事物时，却总是被这些日程安排之类的小事困扰。

When I'm trying to open my mind up to something vast and important, it's little things like scheduling and stuff like that.

然后还会有其他不断重复的念头，比如我看过的电影画面会突然在脑海中闪现之类的。

Then there'll be other thoughts that will be repeating, you know, like if I saw a movie from it, images will keep popping up from that and such.

这会让你意识到自己无法掌控自己的思维。

It makes you aware that you're not in control of your own mind.

对吧？

Right?

随着时间推移，通过冥想和其他练习，你发现用什么方法能开始平息、清空——或者用你喜欢的说法——那些杂念，从而连接广阔境界，激发创造力或自我表达？

How have you found over time with meditation and other practices, what have you used in order to start quietening, emptying, whatever the right word is for you, those thoughts so that you can connect with the vastness, be creative or self express?

哇。

Wow.

这并不容易，而且是个持续的过程。

It's not easy and it's an ongoing process.

可以说我可能只达到了理想状态的10%。

And I could say I'm maybe 10% of the way where I'd like to be.

但首先你要意识到，当某个念头突然冒出来时，你会经历一个自问'我为什么要想这个？'的阶段。

But first of all, you recognize you go through a thing where a thought pops up, and it's like, why am I thinking about that?

我不喜欢这样。

I don't like it.

你意识到那只是个念头。

You you realize that it's just a thought.

那念头又是什么呢？

And what is thought?

我知道我们现在讨论得有点玄乎了。

And I know we're getting really weird and metaphysical here.

我喜欢这样。

I like it.

但它不是真实的。

But it's not it's it's not real.

那只是个幻影。

It's a phantom.

对吧？

Right?

它并不真实存在。

It has no reality.

真实是你的身体、当下时刻、窗外的鸟儿、天空、你所坐的位置、你活着的事实、你血液的流动——这些才是真实的。

Reality is your body, the present moment, the birds outside, the sky, where you are sitting, the fact that you're alive, that your blood is pumping, these are real.

但你脑海中的那个念头只是个幻影。

But that thought in your mind is a shadow.

它是个幽灵。

It's a phantom.

它并不存在。

It doesn't exist.

它没有真实性。

It has no reality.

于是我经历这个过程：不与它纠缠。

And so I go through this process where don't engage with it.

这感觉很诡异，因为我的思维会耍花招，突然抛出一个必定会吸引我的念头。

And it's really weird because then my mind plays tricks on me, and it pulls up a thought that's definitely going to engage me.

对吧？

Right?

因为它渴望这个。

Because it wants that.

这就像糖分带来的兴奋感。

It's it's like a sugar rush.

于是我说，好吧。

And so I go, okay.

不。

No.

我不会与它纠缠。

I'm not going to engage with it.

这个过程让我意识到，社交媒体正是基于此运作的。

And it made me realize as I went through that process that this is what social media is based on.

社交媒体大规模地映射了人类大脑的运作方式。

Social media has mirrored the human brain on a large scale.

我们有些想法天生就是为了抓住我们的情绪，让我们反复思考它们

We have thoughts that are designed to grab our emotions and make us think about them repent

嗨。

Hi.

我是丹尼·夏皮罗，热门播客《家庭秘密》的主持人。

I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, family secrets.

我们在车里时，《像一块滚石》这首歌响起，他说歌词里有关于你母亲的一句。

We were in the car, like a rolling stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

我就问，什么？

And I said, what?

如果我感觉不被接纳时，我会选择一种别人无法拥有的身份。

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

我知道半夜发生了些事，但我记不清具体发生了什么。

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

这些只是我即将开播的第十三季《家庭秘密》中要呈现的众多动人故事中的一小部分。

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming thirteenth season of Family Secrets.

无论你是从第一季就与我同行，还是刚刚加入《家庭秘密》这个大家庭，我们都非常高兴有你相伴。

Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us.

我将深入探讨秘密的惊人力量——那些塑造我们身份、考验我们关系，并最终揭示我们真实自我的秘密。

I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are.

请在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或你获取播客的任何平台收听《家庭秘密》。

Listen to family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周《亲爱的切尔西》节目中，我和切尔西·汉德勒将迎来尼古拉斯·斯帕克斯。

This week on dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Nicholas Sparks is here.

我想你应该收到过很多关于你设定了爱情和人际关系标准的反馈，很多男性可能难以企及。

I would imagine that you've gotten a lot of feedback about setting a standard of love and romance that a lot of men probably can't measure up to.

我在签售会上听过不少这样的故事。

I have heard such stories at my book signings.

对吧？

Right?

我的诺亚在哪里？

Where's my Noah?

我《分手信》里的约翰在哪呢？

Where's my John from Dear John?

同时在我的职业生涯中，我在签书会上收到过七次求婚，你知道吗？

And at the same time, in the course of my career, I've had seven marriage proposals in lines to sign my book, you know?

哦真的吗？

Oh really?

我明白

I get

走到签书台前，那个家伙突然单膝跪地，我都替他感到尴尬。

up to the table, the doodle dropped to his knees and I feel so bad for him.

我就想，老兄，你现在可是在阿拉巴马州伯明翰市的沃尔玛里啊，但这种事确实发生过。

I'm like, dude, you're, you're in a Walmart in Birmingham, Alabama, but it's happened.

比起有人过来说‘我让其他男人都黯然失色’——虽然我很高兴听到这种话——你更常听到的是这类故事。

You get a lot more of those kinds of stories than people coming up and say, I've ruined I've ruined men for the for the rest, which I'm glad.

如果后者更常见的话，我其实会感到难过的。

I would feel bad if that was more common, actually.

不。

No.

这就是

That's what

你来亲爱的切尔西这里的目的。

you come to dear Chelsea for.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

为了得到提升。

To get upgraded.

在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的地方收听《亲爱的切尔西》。

Listen to dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我们开始吧。

Here we go.

嘿。

Hey.

我是凯尔·潘。

I'm Kel Penn.

在我的新播客《历史重演》中，我们将探讨当今的趋势与头条，并追问：为何历史总在不断重演？

And on my new podcast, here we go again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself?

你可能知道我是《哈罗德与库马尔》系列电影中第二性感的演员，但我同时也是作家、白宫幕僚，以及——大约十五秒前刚成为的——播客主持人。

You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of, like, fifteen seconds ago, a podcast host.

这一路上，我结识了许多科学、政治和流行文化领域的专家朋友。

Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics, and pop culture.

每周都会有一位专家与我共同探讨那些令我寝食难安的问题。

And each week, one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions.

比如：我们是否正走向像08年那样的又一次金融危机？

Like, are we heading towards another financial crash like in o eight?

非一夫一妻制又流行起来了吗？

Is non monogamy back in style?

还有，为什么航班提前两分钟降落时，登机口永远都没准备好？

And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early?

我们的嘉宾阵容包括皮特·布蒂吉格、斯泰西·艾布拉姆斯、莉莉·辛格和比尔·奈。

We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lily Singh, and Bill Nye.

当你开始将外太空武器化时，事情可能会变得非常糟糕。

When you start weaponizing outer space, things can potentially go really wrong.

听着，现在的世界看起来相当可怕，因为它确实如此。

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is.

但我的目标是让你听完后对未来感觉好一些。

But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任何你获取播客的平台收听并订阅《历史重演》与卡尔·佩恩。

Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Cal Pen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

一遍又一遍地强迫性重复。

Over and over again compulsively.

对吧？

Right?

这背后很可能有其目的。

And there's probably a purpose behind that.

但社交媒体在这方面确实很聪明。

But social media is is actually genius at that.

挑选并发布内容。

Picking at putting up things up there.

它们会调动我们的情绪，让我们不得不关注。

They're going to engage our emotions, so we have to pay attention.

所以我总是尝试在每次发生时抽离，并告诉自己：这只是一个念头。

So I always try and every time that happens, I withdraw and I say, it's just a thought.

这不是真实的。

It's not real.

这不是真正的我。

It's not who I am.

这是冥想中非常重要的一部分。

This is a very important part of meditation.

你的想法并不代表你是谁。

Your thoughts are not who you are.

它们是你自身独立的一部分。

They're a separate part of yourself.

你是不同于你自身想法的存在。

You are something different from your own thoughts.

我不确定这对你是否有意义。

I don't know if that means anything to you.

有意义。

It does.

确实有意义。

It does.

绝对有意义。

Definitely.

虽然我们不是我们的思想，也不是我们的心智，但我们的思想会塑造我们的现实。

And while we are not our thoughts and we are not our mind, our thoughts become our reality.

我们发现重复的想法会变成习惯，习惯变成模式，模式变成行动，最终成为我们的现实。

We find that a repetitive thought turns into a habit that turns into a pattern that turns into an action becomes our reality.

例如，'我是个懒散无序的人'这种想法通常会演变成'哦，我忘记发那个了'。

For example, I am a unorganized lazy individual usually translates into, Oh, I forgot to send that.

事情没做成是因为这已经变成了一个根深蒂固的信念。

It didn't happen because now it's a belief that's built up.

所以特别奇妙的是，如此不真实的东西竟能变得如此真实。

And so it's so fascinating that something that's so not real becomes so real.

我最近特别热衷于研究思维编辑这项活动和练习的实用性，因为我发现太多想法变成了信念，信念又塑造了我的生活。

And I've been really into seeing how thought editing is so useful as an activity and an exercise because I've found so many of my thoughts become my beliefs that become my life.

我认为很多人没有意识到这点，因为他们不明白想法就像衣服一样可以更换。

And I think a lot of people don't realize because they don't realize that their thoughts are like clothes that you can change.

我们确实相信自己的想法就是现实，相信脑海中听到的一切就是真相。

We do believe that our thoughts are real and our reality and whatever we're hearing in our head is exactly what is.

而我们没有意识到，这就像看着衣柜说：'我不再喜欢绿色了，我要换成蓝色。'

And we don't realize that, oh, it's like looking in your wardrobe and saying, I don't like the color green anymore, I'm gonna change it for blue.

就这么简单。

It's as simple as that.

嗯，我最近在读一本喜欢的佛教书籍，里面提到我们的心本质上是颠倒的。

Well, there was something I read recently in one of the Buddhist books that I like to read that said our minds are basically topsy-turvy.

它们是上下颠倒的。

They're upside down.

所以现实是——我不想讲得太深奥——但我们其实并没有一个真正的自我。

So the reality is we don't I mean, I don't wanna get too deep into this, but we don't really have a self.

自我只是我们心智的建构。

The self is a construction of our minds.

那里实际上空无一物。

There actually is nothing there.

而这种空性，这种无我状态，就是开悟。

And that kind of emptiness, that egolessness is enlightenment.

这是一种美妙的感觉。

It's a beautiful feeling.

也许在你的人生中，你曾短暂地触及过这种境界。

And maybe in your life, you've touched upon it briefly.

我知道我曾短暂地触及过。

I know I've touched upon it briefly.

这不是我日常的现实状态。

It's not the reality I have every day.

但那才是真实的——那才是真相。

But that's the real that's real.

而不真实的其实是那些念头，但在我们的世界里，一切都被颠倒了。

And what's not real are the thoughts, but everything is turned upside down in our worlds.

这些关于他人、关于我是谁、关于我的习惯等等的妄想念头，它们成为了我们的现实，而真相恰恰相反。

And so these delusionary thoughts about of about people, about who I am, about my habits, etcetera, they become our reality when it's exactly the opposite.

对吧？

Right?

你必须能够意识到这一点。

You have to be able to to to be aware of that.

因此，冥想的核心就在于觉察这些事物，因为我们常常像机器人一样麻木地生活。

And so, you know, meditation is all about being aware of is becoming aware of these things because we walk around like automatons.

你知道，我非常喜欢一位名叫葛吉夫的作家。

You know, I'm very into this writer named Gurdjieff.

不知道你是否听说过葛吉夫。

I don't know if you've ever heard of Gurdjieff.

他基本上来自亚美尼亚。

He was this he's basically from Armenia.

他活跃于二十世纪初。

He was the beginning of the twentieth century.

这位学者对神秘主义深感兴趣，曾游历整个亚洲探寻各种深奥哲学的精髓，最终创立了自己的哲学体系。

He was this man who was very interested in in mysticism, and he traveled throughout Asia trying to find the the the essence of all the different esoteric philosophies, and he created his own philosophy.

他的学说非常有趣且令人振奋。

And it's very interesting, very exciting stuff.

他写过一本《寻找奇迹》的书，我强烈推荐大家阅读。

He wrote a book called In Search of the Miraculous that I highly recommend people.

这不是什么玄乎的东西。

And it's not woo woo stuff.

他是个非常非常务实的人。

He was a very, very practical man.

他用非常实际的语言来阐述。

He puts it in very practical terms.

但他的观点是我们都在梦游般地生活。

But his idea is that we walk around asleep.

我们始终处于自动驾驶模式。

We're on automatic pilot constantly.

我们并未真正意识到自己在呼吸、存在着。

We're not really aware that we're breathing, that we're existing.

我们不知道自己的思想从何而来。

We're not aware where our thoughts come from.

我们意识不到身体是如何运动的，诸如此类。

We're not aware of how our body moves, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

因此，这是一个逐渐意识到这类事物的过程。我必须说，我实践这个方法已有十四、十五年，它确实彻底改变了我的人生轨迹。

And so it's a process of slowly becoming aware of these kinds of things that is really kind of I've been doing this fourteen, fifteen years now, and it's really, really kind of changed the course of my life, I have to say.

是的，我非常赞同这一点，现在迫不及待想读那本书，完全感同身受。

Yeah, I love that and I can't wait to read that book now and I couldn't agree more.

我觉得我们与自己的身心如此脱节，以至于总认为解决我们感受的答案在自身之外。

I feel we're so disconnected from our mind and body that we constantly believe that someone outside of ourself has the answer for how we feel.

虽然在看医生或牙医等专业人士时可能确实如此，但我们的身体其实已经不适数周或数月，直到崩溃才意识到自己长期忽视了某些方面——就像某段关系必须结束，我们才会发现它早已失去投入和活力。

And while that may be true when you're seeing a doctor or a dentist or something of that professional nature, we don't really know how our body's been feeling for weeks or months until it crashes and then we realize that we haven't paid enough attention to X or Y or Z or a relationship in the same way has to end in order for us to realize that it had lost investment and energy or whatever it may be.

我们与真我的距离如此遥远，至少与这个版本的自我如此疏离，以至于毫无觉察。

And we're so far away from the self or at least this version of the self that, yeah, we're not really aware.

你刚才说的关于‘我们对自己呼吸、存在、当下共处的意识程度’与‘我们活在头脑中的程度’的对比，我深有共鸣。

I love what you just said about the idea of how conscious are we of the fact that we're breathing, we're here, we're present, we're together versus how much are we living up here?

确实。

Yeah.

这真的很耐人寻味，不是吗？

And it's really interesting, isn't it?

因为我们始终在应对两种近乎不同的现实，如果讨论变得过于抽象，我很乐意转换话题，但我最近一直在思考：从某种角度看，外部世界是真实的，而从另一种角度看，内在世界才是真实的。

Because there's almost two realities that we're always dealing, and if we're getting too heady, I'm happy to move away from it, but it's almost like I've been thinking a lot about how in one sense, what's out here is real and in one sense, what here isn't.

而实际上，此刻内心发生的一切才是真实的，因为它定义了我与外界的一切互动方式。

And at the same time, actually what's going on here is the real because it defines how I interact with everything else.

它能帮助我成为更好的过滤器，更明智地选择交往的人群和造访的地方。

And it can help me be a better filter, a better chooser, selector of the people I'm around and the places I visit.

所以你是说必须借助思维才能达到临在状态，这是个渐进的过程？

So you say you have to kind of use the mind to be able to become present, it's a process?

我想说我在探索中暗示了这一点，而非强行推进，不知道这样讲是否清楚。

I would say I'm alluding to that in discovery, not in pushing it, if that makes sense.

嗯嗯，对我来说很合理。

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to me.

是的，我完全同意这个观点。

Yeah, I agree with that, definitely.

我最近一直在思考，大部分发生的事情其实都存在于无形的世界中

I've been reflecting a lot recently about how most of what's happening is in the invisible world and that

这非常有趣，请多告诉我一些。

That's very interesting, tell me more about that.

所以我一直在思考，从某种意义上说，外部世界是可见的现实，但我如何理解这个可见世界却完全发生在无形的空间里。

So I've just been, I was thinking that in one sense you have reality externally, the visible world, but how I make sense of that visible world is all in the invisible space.

最终我理解世界的方式构成了我所体验的现实，无论周围发生了什么。这就是为什么我们会意识到——其实我们整天都在给自己讲述各种故事和叙事，但我们处理经历的方式才是我们的现实，而非事件本身、别人的言论或社交媒体（就像你举的例子）。

And ultimately how I make sense of it is the reality that I experience regardless of what's happening around me, which is why we realize that people who, well, we all are telling ourselves stories and narratives all day long, but how we're processing what we're experiencing is our reality as opposed to the event or what someone said or social media as you gave an example.

就像我可以坐在这里说：我知道当我早上醒来开始刷社交媒体时，我的思维速度会比不刷时快10倍、100倍。

Like I can either sit here and say, like I know that when I wake up in the morning and I start scrolling on social media, my mind is now moving 10 times, 100 times faster than if I don't do that.

而且我知道如果不看手机，刷牙洗澡的过程会比看手机时平静得多。

And I know that brushing my teeth and showering is a much more peaceful process if I haven't looked at my phone than if I do.

对吧。

Right.

所以这种选择其实是在无形世界中做出的。

And so that choice is being made in the invisible world.

而可见世界只是我与之互动、从中获取或被其影响的存在。

And the visible world is simply something I'm interacting with and taking from or being affected by.

嗯，所以我们大多生活在无形的事物之中。

Well, so we mostly live in in amid things that are invisible.

是的。

Yes.

对吧？

Right?

符号等等。

Symbols, etcetera.

是的。

Yes.

语言就是一种符号。

Language is is is a symbol.

它不是现实。

It's not reality.

所以像政府和社会行为这类事物，我们遵守的规则和准则都是无形的。

And so things like government and and social behavior, there are rules and codes that we abide by, but they're not visible.

它们是看不见的。

They're invisible.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Definitely.

而我们并没有意识到这一点。

And and we're not aware of that.

因此我们正努力提升对无形世界的认知。

And so we're trying to raise our awareness of the invisible world.

我一直在试图提高自己的意识：为什么我会这样处理这件事？

I'm always trying to raise my awareness of why do I process this this way?

这源自何处？

Where does this come from?

这个想法在哪里扎根？

Where's this idea taking root?

那确实是的。

That's a very yeah.

这是个非常有趣的过程。

It's very interesting process to go through.

是啊。

Yeah.

这很难。

It's hard.

确实，这并不明确。

It's, yeah, it's not clear.

这不是一个按部就班的过程。

It's not it's not like a here's the step by step process.

这只是我一直在深入思考的事情。

It's just something I've been engaging with a lot.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我喜欢尝试着去质疑自己所有的信念和认知，追问其中的缘由。

I like to try and, go through a thing where I I question question all of my beliefs and things of why.

这种想法从何而来？

Where does that come from?

为什么我会相信这个？

Why do I believe that?

为什么它会在我脑中变得如此根深蒂固？

Why has that become something that's so hardened into my brain?

无论是关于我自己、我的身份，还是关于他人的认知。

I believe that about myself and who I am, about other people.

我不断尝试挑战这些观念，探究其根源，然后或许会说：事实可能恰恰相反。

I continually try to challenge it and look at what might be the source of it, and then maybe say, it could be the opposite.

对吧？

Right?

实际上这可能会带来很多问题，因为我的思维总是在游移，我从不认为任何事情是确定的。

And it actually can be it can lead to a lot of problems because it's like my mind is always swimming, and I never really think anything is certain.

我总是能看到事情的反面。

I'm always, you know, seeing the opposite side of it.

但我认为最终这是一个非常健康的过程。

But I think it's in the end, it's a very healthy process.

我太喜欢我们讨论的方向了，因为这又回到了你早先的观点——性格坚强的人懂得如何接受批评，这意味着他们知道如何处理与自己想法或感受相反的意见。

How how do you I I love I love where we're going because it kind of comes back to your same point early, sorry, your earlier point about how someone of strong character knows how to take criticism, which means they know how to deal with the opposite of what they think or feel.

正如你现在分享的这个观点：能够质疑、评估和审视我们的信念与价值观是健康的。

And so this idea that you're sharing now that it's healthy to be able to question, to evaluate, to assess our beliefs and values.

但就像你说的，这是最难做到的事情之一，因为你会陷入不确定的状态，质疑自己的身份，失去方向感。

But like you said, it's one of the hardest things to do because you get into a space of uncertainty, you question your identity, you lose a sense of direction.

我们如何在质疑自我的同时不迷失自我，并真正意识到这正是发现和构建自我的过程？

How do we question ourselves without losing ourselves and actually realize that that is the process of discovering and building ourselves?

你知道吗，说到底，你究竟是谁？

You know, like, who who really are you in the end?

你明白吗？

You know?

是什么构成了你，你的本质是什么？

What what what constitutes you, the essence of you?

你在这个世界上注定要完成什么？

What were you meant to accomplish in this world?

对吧？

Right?

你的目标感，用你节目的标题来说。

Your sense of purpose, you know, to use the title of your show.

是什么让你成为独特的个体，让你与众不同，让你注定要完成的事？

What is it that makes you an individual, makes you unique, that you alone are are meant to accomplish in life?

这不是与生俱来的。

Well, it's not given.

我们并不知道答案。

We don't know it.

许多人真的非常努力想要弄清楚这一点。

And a lot of people really, really struggle with trying to figure that out.

对吧？

Right?

因为他们被父母、兄弟姐妹、文化环境和老师灌输着‘这就是你’的观念。

Because they've been programmed by their parents, by their siblings, by the culture, by their teachers to say this is who you are.

这就是你该信仰的。

This is what you should believe in.

这就是你人生中该完成的事。

This is what you were meant to accomplish in life.

这就是什么是酷，什么不酷。

This is what's cool and what's not cool.

明白吗？

Okay?

因此你必须质疑自己。

And so you have to question yourself.

你必须问，这真的是我吗？

You have to say, is this really who I am?

我真的对这个话题感兴趣吗？

Do I really am I really interested in this subject?

我真的对这种类型的人感兴趣吗？真的想和这种人建立关系吗？

Am I really interested in this kind of person, in getting in a relationship with this kind of person?

所以要在那个层面上质疑自己。

And so question yourself on that level.

你正在触及越来越深层的核心，那可能是你本质的样子。

You're getting at a deeper and deeper core of maybe who you are at essence.

你要剥离所有强加于你、与你无关的社会性事物。

You're away all of the social stuff that's been foisted upon you that it has nothing to do with you.

对吧？

Right?

所以在某些方面，你对自己来说是个谜，而你正在试图解开这个谜题。

So in some ways, you're kind of a mystery to yourself, and you're sort of trying to solve that puzzle.

你必须问这些问题。

And you have to ask these questions.

这是我真正感兴趣的事情吗？

Is this something I'm actually really interested in?

这对我来说是本质上重要的事情，还是文化中的东西，或是别人告诉我的东西？

Is this an intrinsically important thing to me, or is it something that's in the culture or something that other people have told me?

反复不断地质疑这些，并不是要把你引入虚无的深渊。

And questioning that over and over and over again is not to lead you into this abyss where there's nothing real.

而是要让你更接近真实的自己，接近真正重要的事物，接近你的本质，接近你生命中注定要完成的事。

It's to get you closer to who you are, to what really matters, to what that essence of you is, to what you were meant to accomplish in life.

一旦你触及那种内在的黄金般的本质，你就会获得一定程度的确定性。

And once you reach that, that inner kind of gold, then you have you have a degree of certainty.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我很小的时候就知道自己想成为一名作家。

So I know I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a writer.

对吧？

Right?

但我曾苦苦挣扎于想清楚自己究竟想写什么类型的作品。

I had a struggle to figure out what kind of writing I wanted.

但大约在八岁时就认清这个自我认知后，我便能果断判断：我对那个不感兴趣。

But knowing that's who I am, probably about at the age of eight, it allowed me to go, I'm not interested in that.

我不想做那个。

I don't wanna do that.

这并不重要。

This isn't important.

我为什么要走这条职业道路？

Why am I following this career path?

我为什么要在这里浪费时间？

Why am I wasting my time here?

因此当你认清这个核心本质后，就不必再不断质疑自己。

And then so knowing that kind of core, you don't have to keep questioning yourself.

所以我永远不会质疑自己。

So I'm never gonna question myself.

你为什么要当作家？

Why are you a writer?

你为什么要写书？

Why are you writing books?

你本应该成为流行歌星的。

You should have been a a pop star.

你本应该成为摇滚歌手的。

You should have been a rock singer.

你本应该去写诗的。

You should have written poetry.

你本应该当律师的。

You should have been a lawyer.

不。

No.

我永远不会动摇，因为我脚下有坚实的根基。

I'll never go there because I have that that firm ground beneath me.

这就是你不断追问的意义所在——触及你本质的核心。

And that's what your questioning is supposed to lead to, get to the essence of who you are.

一旦你到达那个境界，你的人生就会拥有某种确定性。

And once you're there, you have a degree of certainty in your life.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, it does.

确实如此。

It does.

我觉得一个巨大的挑战——最近我一直在思考这个问题——这种心态的根源在于我们过于在意他人的看法，害怕成为自己眼中不成功的版本，因为我们宁愿成为别人期望中成功的模样。

And I feel like a big challenge, something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is a big challenge of where that comes from is because we care so much about what people think and we're scared of being an unsuccessful version of ourselves because we'd rather be a successful version of what someone else wants us to be.

是啊。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们害怕成为不成功的作家，尽管我们本可以成为成功的会计师。

So we're scared of being an unsuccessful writer if we could be a successful accountant.

我们害怕成为不成功的艺术家，因为我们宁愿成为成功的科技从业者，或者其他任何职业，你可以自行填空。

We're scared of being an unsuccessful artist because we'd rather be a successful tech person, whatever else it may be, fill in your blank.

而且因为我们认为他人对我们的看法对我们有如此强烈的束缚，以至于我们无法转向自己的热情所在。

And because what we think people think of us has such a strong hold on us that we can't pivot to our passions.

我们无法调整方向去追求自己的人生目标。

We can't maneuver to our purpose.

我们无法接受自己可能不是这个人希望我成为的样子。

We can't accept that maybe I'm not what this person wants me to be.

我最近花了很多时间思考这个问题，试图从不同角度深入探讨。

And I've been spending a lot of time in this to try and figure out and let's dive into it from different perspectives.

但我想问，罗伯特，你有多在意别人对你的看法？作为一个显然有很多人喜欢阅读你作品的人，你是如何理解这一点的？

But I guess, how much Robert, do you care what people think of you and how have you made sense of that over your time as someone who obviously writes that a lot of people enjoy your reading.

人们可能会反对你

People may disagree with you.

他们也可能赞同你

They may agree with you.

正如你所说，人们会辩论、讨论

People, as you said, debate, discuss.

但你是如何理解这一点的？

But how have you made sense of that?

你处理他人评价的过程是怎样的？

And what's been your process of dealing with how you think people think about you?

这是认识我的人对我的看法，也是社交圈中不认识我的人对我的印象——这种印象往往与现实大相径庭

This is how people think about me who know me personally, and it's how people think about me in the social realm who don't know me personally and who have an idea of who I am, which is often very different from the reality.

但作为人类，我自然希望人们理解真实的我：我有特定性格，其实喜欢笑话和低俗幽默，爱看无脑电影，并不总是埋头读深奥哲学

But naturally, as a human being, I care that people understand that I'm I'm a certain way, that I have a certain character, that I actually love jokes and silly bathroom humor, and that, you know, I like stupid movies, and that I'm not always, you know, reading heavy philosophy.

你懂吗？

You know?

我妻子可以告诉你我性格中所有这些孩子气的一面。

My wife can tell you all about this childish side of my personality.

所以，你知道，对我来说，保持真实和真诚一直很重要。

So, you know, it's always been important to me to feel kind of authentic and sincere.

我一直很讨厌虚伪，这可能就是我写《权力的48条法则》的原因。

And I've always hated, and it's probably why I wrote the 48 laws of power.

我讨厌那些假装成他们本来不是的人。

I hate people who are pretending to be something that they're not.

这让我感到深深的、深深的伤害，我也不知道为什么。

Deeply, deeply wounds me, and I don't know why.

我不知道为什么从小就这样。

I don't know why it's been like this since I was a child.

也许我在父母身上察觉到了那种让我深感不安的虚伪。

Maybe I suspected that in my parents, the kind of falseness that upsets me deeply.

所以我写了《权力的48条法则》，因为我觉得人们太虚伪了。

And so I wrote the 48 laws of power because I felt people are such hypocrites.

他们假装对权力不感兴趣，但那正是他们唯一关心的东西。

They pretend that they're not interested in power, but that's all they're interested in.

对吧？

Right?

他们戴着这副面具，说什么'哦，我只是想帮助人们'。

They wear this front that, oh, I just wanna help people.

说什么'我只是想拍电影、搞文化和艺术'。

I just wanna make movies and culture and art.

不。

No.

你对权力感兴趣。

You're interested in power.

对我来说，揭示一个人内心的真实想法以及保持自我真实感一直极为重要。

So it's always been deeply important to me to kind of reveal what's really going on in someone and to sort of feel that way about myself.

所以当我觉得自己不像真实的自己，当我觉得自己在伪装时——说实话，杰伊，作为一个所谓的'自助大师'，这种感觉很虚伪。

So when I don't feel like I'm myself, when I feel like I'm faking it and sometimes, to be honest with you, Jay, being a kind of quote unquote self help guru, it feels false.

这感觉不像真正的我。

It doesn't feel like who I am.

我觉得自己有点像个冒牌货。

I feel like a bit of an impostor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那并不是我真正想成为的样子。

That's not really what I wanted to be.

我深有同感。

Can relate to that.

我只想写书。

I just wanted to write books.

我热爱思想。

I love ideas.

我热爱思考。

I love thoughts.

我热爱拓展自己的意识境界。

I love expanding my consciousness.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

所以这种无法做真实的自己、而别人却似乎对此趋之若鹜的感觉，让我非常困扰。

So the feeling that I'm not being who I am and that other people are kind of glomming onto that is upsetting to me.

是的。

Yeah.

我不确定我是否回答了你的

I don't know if I'm answering your

问题。

question.

这...这真的让我产生了深深的共鸣。

That that's I That's resonating so deeply with me.

我觉得这很有意思，不是吗？

I think it's so interesting, isn't it?

你的自我认知与别人对你的投射是如此不同。

How your self perception is so different from people's projection onto you.

所以我对此深有同感。

And so I can identify with that.

我做这些事只是因为我在分享我所热爱的东西。

I do what I do because I'm just sharing what I love.

所以我热爱冥想。

So I love meditation.

我热爱智慧书籍。

I love wisdom books.

我热爱传统。

I love traditions.

我热爱古代智慧和现代科学，并看到两者之间的相似之处。

I love ancient wisdom and modern science and seeing the parallels between the two.

我就是喜欢谈论这些并分享这些。

And I just love talking about that and sharing that.

是啊。

Yeah.

我从未将自己视为上师、导师或这类人物。

And I don't think I've ever thought of myself as a guru or a guide or that kind of individual.

但在社会中，如果有人分享、教导或提供见解建议，我们就会把他们框定为这类人，认为他们等同于你。

But we in society, if someone shares or teaches or gives insight or advice, we box them or bucket them as that's the same as you.

对。

Right.

我们会被归为同一类，尽管我们做的事情有些相似但又非常不同。

We'd go in the same bucket, even though we kind of do similar things but very different things.

我们可能有些兴趣相似，也有些兴趣不同。

And we probably have some similar interests and some different interests.

有趣的是，这里居然没有一个空间。

And it's interesting how there isn't a space.

就像我常对人们说的，我只是想成为大家的精神伙伴。

Like I often say to people, I'm just trying to be everyone's spiritual friend.

这就是我的目标。

Like that's my goal.

我就是那个向朋友介绍他们可能没接触过的酷事物的人，无论是东方灵性、智慧还是其他什么。

Like I'm that guy who's introducing my friends to cool things that they may not have come across, whether it's Eastern spirituality or wisdom or whatever it may be.

我就是这样的人，这就是我想成为的全部。

Like I'm that guy and that's all I wanna be.

我不想成为别的什么。

I don't wanna be anything else.

没错。

Right.

但当你被捧上神坛时很难受，即使你从未要求或想要这样。

But it's hard when you almost get put on a pedestal even though you didn't ask for that or didn't want that.

嗯，如果你不够谨慎，人们对你的看法几乎会变成你对自己的认知。

Well, people's perception of you can almost become what how you perceive yourself if you're not careful.

确实如此。

For sure.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以这就是为什么我不断回归自我，问自己：那真的是我吗？

And so that's why I keep coming back to myself and going, is that really who I am?

是的。

Yes.

我不这么认为，罗伯特。

I don't think so, Robert.

你明白吗？

You know?

而且实际上，我是个有缺陷的人。

And also, I actually am I'm a flawed individual.

我是个不完美的人类。

I'm a flawed human being.

我的天性中存在盲点。

I have, you know, blind spots in my nature.

我有一些希望自己没有的强迫行为。

I have compulsions that I wish I didn't have.

我不喜欢人们认为我是个无所不知的强大人物，因为我并非如此。

And I don't like this idea that people think I'm this powerful person who's figured everything out because I'm not.

这就是为什么我写了《人性的法则》这本书。

I have that's why, you know, I write the wrote the book, The Laws of Human Nature.

正因为我明白自己同样存在自恋倾向的缺陷，我也会感到嫉妒，有时会自我膨胀。

It was because I understand that I shared the same flaws that I have narcissistic tendencies, that I too can feel envy, that I have moments of grandiosity.

所以我对这种观念感到不适——仿佛我成了别人眼中那个并非真实的自己。

So I'm not comfortable with the idea, like, that I'm this somebody that I'm not, that that that the perception of me is.

但这就是许多成功名人的共同遭遇。

But that's what happens to a lot of successful famous people.

他们被困在了他人塑造的形象里

They become trapped in what other people are

无人受到伤害。

No one is harmed.

没有死亡。

No death.

没有创伤。

No trauma.

只是培养皿中生长的少量细胞。

Just a few cells grown in a dish.

这里是《内在宇宙》播客的大卫·伊格曼。

This is David Eagleman from the Inner Cosmos Podcast.

本周我们将探讨一个脑科学遇见未来的难题。

And this week, we're tackling a tough question where brain science meets the future.

实验室培育肉将迫使我们直面伦理与想象力的边界。

Lab grown meat is going to force us to confront the boundaries of our ethics and our imagination.

它促使我们质疑：为何我们恰好在这些地方划界，这些界限是用墨水还是铅笔勾勒的。

It invites us to question why we draw lines exactly where we do and whether those lines are drawn in ink or in pencil.

这与神圣性、大脑可塑性、社会归属感、混乱的心理分类界限、肉体版权又有什么关系？

And what does this have to do with sanctity, brain plasticity, social belonging, messed up boundaries between mental categories, flesh copyrights,

以及人格的未来？

and the future of personhood?

我们要为自己准备怎样的餐桌？

What is the table we're going to set for ourselves?

这个问题揭示了脑科学和我们道德计算的哪些方面？

What does this question uncover about brain science and our calculations of morality?

请在iHeartRadio应用或苹果设备上收听《内在宇宙》

Listen to Inner Cosmos on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

一位掌握秘密的战场外科医生，一个建立在权力与特权之上的世界，以及本年度最出人意料的创意组合。

combat surgeon with secrets, a world built on power and privilege, and the most unexpected creative duo of the year.

作为多年演员，我总是走进别人的故事里。

As an actor for so many years, I would always walk into other people's stories.

我想，为什么不自己试试看，尝试创作属于自己的故事呢？

And I thought, well, why don't I give it a shot, you know, and try to write up myself?

本周，由瑞茜读书俱乐部推荐的《纽约往事》将在纽约Soho区举行现场活动，瑞茜·威瑟斯彭与哈兰·科本这对黄金搭档将出席——他们合作的《消失前告别》现已成为《纽约时报》畅销书。

This week, bookmarked by Reese's Book Club goes live from Soho in New York City with Reese Witherspoon and Harlan Coben, the powerhouse team behind Gone Before Goodbye, now a New York Times bestseller.

我们俩当时就预感到这事准能成。

I think we both knew right away that this was gonna happen.

这场对话将探讨恐惧、野心，以及当两位故事大师相遇时会发生什么。

It's a conversation about fear, ambition, and what happens when two master storytellers collide.

我从未见过女性主导的007式世界。

I've never seen a woman in kind of a James Bond world.

来感受惊悚，留下收获惊喜。

Come for the chills and stay for the surprises.

且看读者为何对此书爱不释手。

And find out why readers can't put it down.

请在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客或任意播客平台收听《瑞茜读书俱乐部推荐书单》。

Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

什么

What

当你将1950年代的好莱坞元素融合在一起时，会得到什么？

do you get when you mix nineteen fifties Hollywood?

一位怀揣梦想的古巴音乐家与史上最具标志性的情景喜剧之一相遇

A Cuban musician with a dream and one of the most iconic sitcoms of all time.

你将遇见德西·阿纳兹——开拓者、商人、丈夫，或许最重要的是，他是首位打破黄金时段壁垒的拉丁裔明星

You get Desi Arnaz, a trailblazer, a businessman, a husband, and maybe most importantly, the first Latino to break prime time wide open.

我是威尔默·瓦尔德拉玛，没错，我和你们数百万人一样是看着他的节目长大的

I'm Wilmer Valderrama, and yes, I grew up watching him, probably just like you and millions of others.

但对我来说，我在他的故事中看到了自己的影子

But for me, I saw myself in his story.

从清洗金丝雀笼子到纽约的这个夜晚，这是一段漫长的旅程

From cleaning canary cages to this night here in New York, it's a long ways.

在这档由德西·阿纳兹和我共同呈现的播客中，我将带你穿越德西的人生轨迹，探寻我们命运的交集点，看他如何重塑美国电视产业，以及这对我们这些在荧幕外等待同类面孔的观众意味着什么

On the podcast starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama, I'll take you in a journey through Desi's life, The moments he has overlapped with mine, how he redefined American television, and what that meant for all of us watching from the sidelines, waiting for a face like ours on screen.

这是一个关于先驱者如何为后来者照亮道路的故事，也是关于我们如何传承他精神遗产的当代叙事

This is the story of how one man's spotlight lit the path for so many others and how we carry his legacy today.

请收听由德西·阿纳兹和威尔默·瓦尔德拉玛主演的节目，作为My Cultura播客网络的一部分，可在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或您获取播客的任何平台收听。

Listen to starring Desi Arnaz and Wilmer Valderrama as part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

想着他们。

Thinking about them.

他们被困在那个形象里。

They become trapped in that image.

说实话我觉得我可能完全想错了，但我想到的是像安东尼·波登这样自杀的人。

And I honestly think I I could be way off base, but I'm thinking of somebody like Anthony Bourdain who committed suicide.

我认为他被人们对他的看法压得喘不过气来，但那并不是真正的他。

I think he was burdened and weighed down so much by how people thought of himself, and it wasn't who he was.

这让他感到非常不自在。

And it kind of made him feel deeply uncomfortable.

我相信当时还有其他许多问题存在。

And I'm sure there were many other issues going on.

但是

But a

很多时候，别人对你的看法会让你感到浑身不自在，这可能导致深深的抑郁感和自我迷失。

lot of times, it can make you uncomfortable in your own skin, the way people perceive you, and it can lead to deep feelings of depression and and ice and a loss of who you are kind of.

是啊。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我是说，你能写本新书叫《人性的缺陷》吗？

I mean, could you write a new book called The Flaws of Human Nature?

就像《谢谢你》那样。

It's like Thank you.

这本书就是讲这个的，对吧？

That's what the book is, right?

对对，

Yeah, yeah,

这就是人性的18个阴暗面。

It's the 18 dark corners of human nature.

不过，这确实是个好主意。

But yeah, that's a good idea.

是啊，不，这只是个想法，你知道，确实如此——我们追求完美，并在某种程度上创造了一个关于'前后对比'的世界观。比如健身计划，这本身没问题，很合理，但总会有'训练前'和'训练后'的照片对比。

Yeah, no, it's just a, you know, a thought of like, it is true, it's, there's a seeking of perfection and there's a sense that we've created in the world of before and after in the sense that if you look at like a workout program and there's nothing wrong with this because it makes sense but there's a before picture and there's an after picture.

如果有人变富裕了，就好像他们曾经贫穷现在富有，所有事情都被简化为线性的'前后'历程。

And if someone's wealthy, it's like they were poor and now they're rich and everything's a linear before and after journey.

而我们讨论的——我完全同意你的观点——实际上我所有的挑战都是循环出现的，并且每次都不尽相同。

And what we're talking about and I fully agree with you on this is that actually all of my challenges are cyclical and they're different.

所以并不是说我再也不感到嫉妒了。

So it's not that I never feel envy anymore.

而是说我现在感受到的嫉妒与十年前不同了。

It's that I feel it differently to how I felt it ten years ago.

希望我现在应对、理解和处理这些问题的能力比十年前强一些了，但这并不意味着它不再影响我。

And hopefully I'm a bit better at dealing with it and understanding it and engaging with it than I was ten years ago, but it's not that it doesn't affect me anymore.

对，对。

Right, right.

同样适用于那些盘旋的念头。

And same with spiraling thoughts.

并不是说因为我开悟了，就再也不会产生焦虑或消极的想法。

It's not that I don't have anxious or negative thoughts anymore because I'm enlightened.

我依然会有那些念头，只是比十年前更善于应对，或许掌握了更多与之相处的技巧。

I still have those thoughts, I just deal with them better than I did ten years ago and I probably have more tools to help me engage with them.

确实如此，这非常有意思。

That's true, that's very interesting.

我认为接纳这种周期性对个人和求知者而言都很重要，这样就不会自欺欺人地以为——终有一天我会像杰伊和罗宾那样彻底摆脱消极焦虑的念头。

And I think that cyclical nature is a wonderful thing to accept as an individual and as someone who's learning because you then don't fool yourself to think, there will be one day where I will no longer have a negative or anxious thought like Jay and Robin.

仿佛他们从来不会有这些困扰似的。

Like, you know, they probably never have it.

其实更可能是他们这类念头变少了，而非完全消失。

It's like, well, you probably have less, but it's not that I never have them.

正是如此。

Exactly.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

所以这种'前后对比'的观念我认为迷惑了很多人，因为人们总觉得'啊，到了某个节点后，我就再也不用变回现在的自己了'。

And so that kind of idea of this before and after I think is what confuses so many people because it feels like, oh, there is a point at which I never have to go back to being this version of myself.

但生活不是那样的。

Well, that life isn't like that.

你知道吗，有时候这很诡异。在《权力的48条法则》出版前，我只是个无名小卒，住在圣莫尼卡一间租金管制的一居室里，从没赚过什么钱，人生也谈不上成功。

You know, it's weird sometimes because before the 48 laws of power came out, I was just this nobody living in a two one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, rent controlled, you know, never really made any money, never really had any success in life.

那时我经常给人建议，但没人会听，就因为还没出那本书。

And I was constantly giving people advice, but nobody would listen to me because I hadn't written the book.

结果书一出版，大家就突然觉得我该是另一个人了。

And suddenly the book comes out, and I'm supposed to be a different person.

嗯

Mhmm.

你知道，这非常奇怪。

You know, it's very strange.

但实际上我还是那个住在悲惨单间公寓里的人，那时候我给出的建议没人听。

But I'm actually the same person that I was when I was living in that miserable one bedroom apartment, you know, and giving out my advice that nobody listened to.

现在人们会听了，唯一的不同是我突然有了这个资质，这很诡异。

Now people listen to it, but the only difference is because suddenly I have this credential, which is very strange.

是啊。

Yeah.

我在很多方面都有同感。

I can relate to that in so many ways.

我曾经在我的社区里指导、培训人们。

I was I used to be mentoring, coaching people in my community.

十年前在伦敦举办小型活动时，只有五个人参加，那时候就是单纯在做这件事。

I would do these little events in London ten, eleven years ago now where like five people would show up and it was, you know, was just doing it.

我多年来一直在大学免费演讲。

I would speak at universities for free for years.

就像我，你知道的，这一直是我生活中很重要的一部分。

Like I was, it was, you know, it's been such a big part of my life to just do this.

我一直想成为一个不断学习并分享的人。

I've always wanted to be someone who's learning and sharing.

这就是我喜欢的。

That's what I enjoy.

我享受学习、分享、整合知识，并把事情变得简单实用带给他人。

I enjoy learning and I enjoy sharing and I enjoy synthesizing and making things simple and practical for other people.

这就是我快乐的源泉。

That's what I get my joy from.

我一直受到两句话的启发。

And I was always inspired by two quotes.

一句是伊万·巴甫洛夫说的：如果你想要新想法，就去读一本旧书。

One is Ivan Pavlov where he said, If you want a new idea, read an old book.