第13集 - Sapphire Ventures - 风险投资与企业风投的热门趋势？

AI即人工智能，实际上是一个涵盖性技术术语，包含了生成式AI、机器学习、计算机视觉、大量非自然语言处理技术以及其他诸多领域。关键在于，AI很可能将作为一种赋能技术嵌入现有及新兴的软件应用和基础设施中。从这个角度来看，未来五年必将迎来巨额投资。

AI is really artificial intelligence is really just a blanket technology term that encompasses generative AI and machine learning and computer vision and a whole bunch of unnatural language and a whole bunch of other things. But the point is that AI is likely going to be embedded as an enabling and empowering technology into existing and new software applications, software infrastructure. So And if you think about it that way, there's gonna be tons of investment over the next five

与科技领域最具影响力的创新领袖对话。独家数据和全球主要及新兴生态系统的深度洞察。全球范围内最前沿的科技与开放创新动态。以上内容及更多精彩尽在每期节目。欢迎收听《开放创新对话》。

interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena. Exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world. The hottest news on technology and open innovation at a global level. This and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks.

《桥梁对话》与行业领袖面对面。

Mind the bridge chat with industry leaders.

再次从硅谷向大家问好。我是Mind the Bridge的Marco Maranucci，现在我们在《桥梁对话》节目。今天我们将探讨风投与投资话题，并有幸邀请到Saphyr Ventures合伙人Rajiv Dam。Rajiv，早上好。

Good morning from Silicon Valley again. Here is Marco Maranucci with Mind the Bridge and now we're Mind the Chat. Today we're going to talk VC, we're going to talk investments, and we have the pleasure to have with us Rajiv Dam, a partner at Saphyr Ventures. Rajiv, good morning.

早上好，Marco。很荣幸受邀参加节目。

Good morning, Marco. Great to be here. Thanks for having me.

当然，这也是我们的荣幸。今天的话题重点是想了解您对市场撤资阶段的看法。特别是关于AI如何影响内部流程的细节，我想深入探讨。让我们开始吧——或许可以先谈谈您的背景？您曾在旧金山顶级企业成长风投机构工作，不仅限于Sapphire Ventures。能否简要介绍一下Sapphire Ventures及其当前关注领域？

Sure, it's a pleasure, and really the topic of the day is getting a sense of where you see the market going in terms of divestment phases. In particular, I want to talk a little bit more on the details of how AI is impacting your internal processes, So let's get started. I think a good way to start is also a little bit of your background. You worked for one of the major enterprise growth VCs here in San Francisco, but not only Sapphire Ventures. So give us a little sense of what is Sapphire Ventures and what is the current focus.

好的。很荣幸以个人身份参与讨论。作为Sapphire Ventures合伙人，我从事投资已超过十二年，在B2B和企业软件基础设施应用领域投资了数十家公司。

Sure. Yeah. And great to be here on personal end. I'm a partner with Sapphire Ventures. I've been investing for about a dozen plus years now across a few dozen companies all across B2B and enterprise software infrastructure applications.

我很幸运地见证了许多项目达到可观规模并取得良好成果。这是一段充满乐趣的旅程。Sapphire Ventures是一家专注于企业软件的风险投资公司。我们业务遍布全球，管理着超过100亿美元的资金。我们只投资B2B软件领域，无论是基础设施、网络安全，还是横向或垂直的软件应用，包括B2B金融科技和数字健康应用等所有相关领域。

I have had the good fortune of many of those reaching some good scale and having some good outcomes. And so it's been a fun journey. Sapphire Ventures is a enterprise software focused venture capital firm. We're global in nature, managing over $10,000,000,000 of capital. All we do is B2B software, whether again it's infrastructure or cybersecurity to horizontal or vertical software applications and everything in between, including B2B financial technology and digital health applications as well.

我们的投资阶段覆盖产品市场匹配后期直至IPO前各阶段。马可，我们的核心理念是与具有远见的团队合作，共同打造具有影响力的企业。我们致力于寻找下一个LinkedIn、DocuSign、MuleSoft或monday.com——那些能成为软件界家喻户晓名字的潜力企业。正是这种期待让我们每天充满干劲。

And we invest that at the post sort of product market fit stage all the way to the pre IPO levels as well. And our mantra, Marco, is to really partner with visionary teams building companies of consequence. So we're really looking for the next LinkedIn or DocuSign or MuleSoft or monday.com companies that we've invested in for the next versions of that companies that can be household names as far as software geeks go, at least. And so that's kind of what gets us excited to get up in the morning and do our job.

你们本质上非常国际化，Sapphire本身的历史也很有趣。如果我没记错的话，公司存在已有近三十年历史——应该是1995或1996年在SAP内部创立，后来分拆独立，2014年前后进行了品牌重塑。这段发展历程很有意思。你加入公司已经超过十年了吧？

You guys are very international by nature and the history of Sapphire itself, I think, is pretty interesting. Know, being around, I would say, almost thirty years, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it was started in 'ninety five or 'ninety six within SAP and then spun out and then rebranded in 2014 or something like that. Very interesting also path. And you've been with them more than ten years, right? You joined.

没错，我确实加入超过十年了。马可，我们2010年从SAP分拆成为独立法人实体。几年后更改了品牌名称，但SAP至今仍在多方面是我们重要的合作伙伴。

That's right. I've been with them for more than ten years. That's right, Marco. We spun out as a separate legal entity from SAP in 2010. Changed the brand name a few years, a few years after, but they continue to be just an incredible partner for us in many ways.

这段旅程确实精彩。我2013年加入时，整个公司和生态系统正处于爆发式发展阶段。有时候在风险投资和私募软件投资领域，赶对时机比判断准确更重要——过去十年我们恰好占据了天时地利。

And and it's been a bit of great journey. Obviously, I joined in 2013 and the and the firm and the ecosystem at large has just exploded since sometimes it's better to be lucky than right in terms of right place, right time venture capital, as well as private software investing here over the last ten years.

我记得你们在奥斯汀和旧金山都设有实体办公室？你是常驻旧金山还是门洛帕克办公室？

And then you have offices and physical presence, I believe, in Austin, in San Francisco. Are you based out of San Francisco or Mello Park office?

我base在湾区，工作时间一半在门洛帕克办公室，一半在旧金山。我们在伦敦也设有团队和办公室，在欧洲和以色列都非常活跃。说出来你可能不信——我们公司现在员工数量即将突破100人了。

I'm based here in the Bay Area. I spend half my time in the Menlo Park office, half my time in San Francisco. We do have a team and an office in London as well. We're very active investors across Europe and Israel. And we're now approaching actually, believe it or not, 100 employees.

所以这是一个相当大的组织。是的。

So it's a rather large organization. Yeah.

哇。那你们的投资组合中有多少是国际性的？也就是美国以外的？

Wow. And how much of your portfolio is international? So outside of US?

我没有确切的数字，但如果要估算的话，大约在15%到20%之间。

I don't have the exact figure, but if I would estimate, it would be roughly anywhere from 15% to 20%.

明白了，明白了。所以你们主要还是聚焦美国市场，美国本土发展，但同时也会向其他市场进行一些扩展，对吧？没错。我对你的职业道路很感兴趣，因为你很年轻时就进入了风投领域。我记得你之前从事过投行和私募股权工作。

Got it, got it. So you still kind of focus is US, US development, but then with some extensions into other markets in general, right? Exactly. Interesting in hearing a little bit more about your professional path because you started as a VC kind of pretty young in your career. I believe you were investment banking and private equity.

最终是什么让你加入Sapphire的？为什么选择风投？

What eventually what brought you to Sapphire? Why VC?

是啊，这很有意思。我最初是在高盛做投行工作，那段经历对我影响很大。2002到2009年间，我在金融机构组从事投行业务。可想而知，那是个充满动荡的时期。

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I started in investment banking at Goldman Sachs. It was actually a pretty formative experience. I was in the financial institutions group and investment banking during the 02/2009 time frame. So as you can imagine, it was tumult everywhere.

但我学到了很多。作为高盛这样的投行里初入职场的银行家，能够为CEO和管理团队提供各类战略建议，从文化层面教会你如何将绩效导向与团队协作相结合。如果人们总认为两者是对立的，那就很难办。但高盛却能让两者共存。不过后来我意识到，与其建议企业该做什么、投资什么，不如自己亲自实践。

But I learned a whole lot. It's amazing advising CEOs and management teams on strategic alternatives of all types as an investment banker early in your career in a place like Goldman Sachs from a cultural perspective just teaches you so much about how to combine really performance orientation with teamwork and collaboration. It's very hard if people think they're always at odds. Somehow Goldman makes it work. But I realized that instead of advising companies on what to do and what to invest in, maybe I should do it myself.

就在那时我搬到了银湖。我也意识到，嘿，在湾区长大让我一直接触并热爱科技。而银湖正是这样一家机构，它实际上是私募股权领域真正专注于科技的先驱之一。所以那几年我主要关注中型市场交易、软件和一些硬件技术支持的服务。非常棒的经历。

And that's when I moved over to Silver Lake. And I also realized that, hey, growing up in the Bay Area, I've always been exposed and passionate about technology. And Silver Lake did just that, being one of the actually pioneers really in private equity oriented solely on technology. So it's sort of like I focused on more middle market transactions, software, some hardware tech enabled services for a couple of years. Awesome experience.

我常跟别人说，在银湖学到的远比在哈佛商学院多。那才是真正的商学院体验，能全面理解商业的每个层面、尽职调查流程等等。你是

I always tell people I learned way more at Silver Lake than I did at Harvard for business school. That was the true business school experience in terms of understanding every facet of businesses and their diligence processes and beyond. Did you do

在私募之后读的商学院吗？还是我先

business school after private equity or was I it

之后读的。之后。好的，明白了。

did after. After. Okay, got it, got it.

所以顺序是私募、商学院，然后才是风投。

So it was private equity business school and then and then VC.

没错。私募股权和风险投资之间确实存在很大区别。风投通常追逐增长型市场，对吧？要么是创造新市场，要么颠覆现有市场，寻找那些能成为品类领导者的项目。风投比其他资产类别更遵循幂律法则，必须押中那些能主导赛道的。

Right. That's right. There is a there is a very big distinction between private equity and venture capital. Venture capital generally are going after growth markets, right? They're either you're creating a new market or you're disrupting a current market and you're looking for that category leader venture capital more so than any other asset class follows that power law where you need to get into that category leading.

正如我提到的，要获得巨大回报就需要投资具有重大影响力的公司。这种研究并押注增长市场以获得回报的理念让我深有共鸣。所以当我从银湖离职、在商学院第一年思考职业方向时，我清楚自己热爱科技和投资，但更被Saphyr所专注的增长阶段投资所吸引，尤其是软件领域。这就是我最终选择那里的原因。

As I mentioned, company of consequence in order to generate a really large return. And that idea of studying and going after growth markets as a way to generate the return and growth stories really resonated with me. And so as I was even exiting Silver Lake in my first year of business school contemplating on what I wanted to do, I knew I loved technology. I knew I loved investing, but I felt like that growth stage investing of where Saphyr really focuses on and software in particular was interesting to me. That's how I ended up there.

太棒了。我是说，我们看到很多年轻专业人士通过我们的活动项目参与进来，其中一个共同的问题或共性就是，很多人希望有朝一日能成为投资者或风险投资人，但并没有一条固定的职业路径。那么你认为哪些类型的专业人士能成为成功的风险投资人呢？

Awesome. I mean, we see a lot of young professionals coming through some of our activities programs, and one of the common question or denominator, a lot of them want at some stage to become investors and VCs, and there's not a single professional route to get there. But what kind of professionals do you think are the ones that thrive as as as a VC investors?

风险投资是一项非常有趣的竞技。就我们而言，作为后期阶段投资者，财务分析等能力至关重要，所以我们确实会从咨询公司、投行等传统渠道招聘人才。但你也可以是产品经理，或曾在大公司的企业发展部门工作过，同样能成为出色的风险投资人。看看历史上那些最优秀的风险投资人。

Venture capital is such an interesting sport. I've seen, you know, we oftentimes hire because we are later stage investors where financial analysis and all that tends to to be pretty critical, we do hire consultants, consulting firms and investment banks, a pretty traditional sort of feeder system. But you could be a product manager. You could have worked at corporate development in a national company and still thrive in being an incredible venture venture capital investor. You look at some of the best venture capital investors of all time.

他们来自各行各业。所以并没有固定模式。我认为关键在于你展现的特质，无论是在面试过程中还是试图进入风投行业时，这些特质才能真正打动面试官，让他们决定录用你。

They come from all walks of life. Right. So there's no real way. I mean, I think the key is is the characteristics that you exhibit, whether it's in the interview process or trying to break into a venture capital firm. That's what's really going to resonate with folks interviewing you in that particular firm to say, let's bring this person up.

确实如此。最终还是要看求知欲对吧？在你们这个阶段，团队评估与业务平衡各占多大比重？毕竟如你所说处于成长期，背后需要大量财务分析工作。

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's it's also the intellectual curiosity eventually, right, that At gets your stage, how much is the evaluation of teams versus the balance of the business? I mean, you're, as you said, at the growth stage. So there is a lot of financial analysis that goes behind.

马可，

Marco,

团队永远是关键。永远记住，在风险投资中，与私募股权不同，我们并不拥有整个企业，只持有5%、10%、15%或20%的股份。

the team is always critical. It's always critical. Remember, in venture capital, unlike private equity, we don't own the business. We own five or 10 or 15 or 20 of the business.

如果运气好的话。确实。

If you're lucky. Yes.

你把赌注押在那支团队身上，指望他们能解决问题。归根结底，即使在董事会上，我也只能提供建议。但我总会附加条件，特别是当我与某位CEO意见相左时，我会说：投资你自己。毕竟这是你的事业，你比我更了解业务。

You're betting on that team to figure it out. At the end of the day, even at a board meeting, I can provide my advice. But I always caveat, especially if I disagree with a particular CEO, I say, invest in you. Ultimately, it's your business. You know the business better than I do.

但根据我多年来在十几个董事会任职的经验，我的看法是这样的。没错。所以你必须押注那支团队和那位CEO，让他们在整个投资周期乃至更长时间里带领公司前进。即使当公司营收达到1000万、2000万或3000万美元，超越了初创阶段，已经具备商业规模时——要知道未来还会有无数变数，你本质上还是在赌那位创始人或CEO能带领公司度过这些时期。

But based on what I know from the dozen or so boards that I've sat on over the years, here's what I think. Right. And so you really need a bet on that team and that CEO to kind of carry you throughout the investment and beyond. And so it's still even at 10 or 20 or 30,000,000 of revenue when it's beyond an idea, the company already has commercial traction. You know, there's going to be a ton of up to nows and you're really betting on that founder or that CEO to kind of manage you through those times.

确实，无论处于哪个发展阶段，这始终是个关键因素。我想聊聊AI浪潮，它如何整体影响投资流程，进而如何影响风险投资行业？我的第一个问题是：在湾区、硅谷这里，你经常听到一种说法——随着AI浪潮的汹涌来袭，由于基础架构已大量铺设，现在大规模部署资金反而变得更困难了。对此你怎么看？

Yeah, so it's still a element regardless of the stage of development. I want to talk about the big wave of AI and how is today impacting the investment process in general and then VC as a consequence of that? So maybe the first question I have is that you're hearing here in The Bay, in Silicon Valley a lot. Many are saying that probably also with this big wave of AI coming and surging, it's harder to deploy large amounts of capital because there are so many foundational layers already being laid. So what's your view?

基金规模是否真的会受到AI影响？未来会怎样？

Is the size of funds really impacted by AI or not really going forward?

你是指风险投资基金的规模吗？

The size of venture capital funds?

对。比如现在要决定：如果今天开始运作，我能否部署十亿美元？或者说在现有工具条件下，其实只需要一小部分资金就能达到效果？

Yes. Yeah, deciding, you know, can I deploy a billion dollars today if I have to start today, right? Or is today with all the tools that are out there, just need a fraction of that to be effective?

我认为是的。马可，这个问题很有意思。答案可以说是'既是也不是'——我知道这种回答最讨人厌。从三到七年的长期视角来看，我们认为不仅存在部署十亿美元的巨量机会，未来更是会达到数百亿乃至数千亿美元的规模。

I think so. I mean, listen, Marco, it's interesting. It's a kind of a yes and no answer, which I know are the worst. In terms of the longer term horizon, three, five, seven years, we think there's an enormous opportunity to deploy not just a billion. We think it's going to be tens of billions, hundreds of billions of dollars.

AI（人工智能）实际上只是一个涵盖性技术术语，它包括生成式AI、机器学习、计算机视觉、大量非自然语言处理技术以及其他许多内容。顺便说一句，这些技术已经存在一段时间了。Sapphire公司投资这类企业也有一段时间了。当然，现在技术有了新进展。但关键在于，AI很可能会作为一种赋能技术被嵌入到现有及新的软件应用和基础设施中。

AI is really artificial intelligence is really just a blanket technology term that encompasses generative AI and machine learning and computer vision and a whole bunch of unnatural language and a whole bunch of other things. That's, by the way, been around for a while. Sapphire has been investing in those companies for a while. Of course, now there's advancements. But the point is that AI is likely going to be embedded as a enabling and empowering technology into existing and new software applications, software infrastructure.

没错。如果从这个角度考虑，未来五年将会有巨额投资涌入。说到2023年，Marco，你的观点很对。坦白说，我感觉开年以来投资热潮已经呈现爆发式增长。但我认为关键仍在于要用Sapphire一贯的投资视角来审视这些AI企业。

Right. And so if you think about it that way, there's going to be tons of investment over the next five years. Now, as you think about 2023, Marco, you're right in that. I feel like there's been a, you know, an explosion, frankly, of investment out of the gate. And and I think it's critical to still view these AI businesses through the same lens that Sapphire's always viewed these businesses.

是否拥有优秀团队？是否具备具有竞争壁垒的优质产品？是否在解决客户和企业面临的特定商业痛点？是否面临广阔市场机遇？财务指标是否健康？只有基于这些标准进行衡量，才能对投资标的形成审慎判断。在任何技术平台转型期，最优秀的企业往往不是在最初六个月内诞生的。

It's a great team, is a great product that's defensible and that's solving a very specific customer and enterprise business value? Right. Is it a big market opportunity or the financial metrics there? If you view it through that, that's going to be critical to have a measured view in terms of the companies you invest in. In every single shift platform, technological shift, it's not like all the best businesses are formed in the first six months.

生成式AI领域的'谷歌'真正诞生可能需要六年、七年，甚至十年十二年的时间。目前OpenAI显然是该领域的巨无霸，我预期它将保持持久影响力。但正如我所说，未来十年还将涌现数十家——甚至数百家公司。因此我们长期看好这个领域。

It could take six years, seven, ten, twelve years until the Google of generative AI is really born. Right now, OpenAI clearly is a behemoth in the space. And I expect it will have incredible lasting power. But I expect there will be dozens, if not more, like I said, hundreds of companies that are going be built over the next ten years. And so we're really long term bullish.

不知你是否注意到公告，Sapphire近期承诺将专门投资10亿美元支持AI相关企业和创业者。但我们仍保持审慎节奏，确保不会在接下来半年内就耗尽这第一笔10亿美元资金。

I don't know if you saw the announcement, but Saphar recently committed to investing a billion dollars just in backing sort of AI oriented companies and founders and enterprises as a result. But again, we're taking a very measured pace and making sure we don't invest that whole first billion dollars just in the next six months.

那么你们的投资理念是否有任何调整？还是依然遵循原有的核心原则？

Yeah. So is your investment thesis change at all or are you still using the same kind of a fundamental pillars?

我们仍然沿用相同的评估标准和投资哲学。唯一的变化是创新速度大幅提升。我们正在重新思考：如果一家公司既是AI企业，又能高度优化地运用AI技术（目前这类案例仍处于早期阶段），其人员结构可能会有所不同。现在我们看到规模较小的公司能以更快速度创造更高的年度经常性收入(ARR)，这正成为我们考量的新维度。

We're still using the same rubrics and the same philosophies to invest in these companies. The one thing that I will say is the pace of innovation is a lot quicker. And one of the things we're rethinking is if a company let's say a company is an AI company, but also using AI internally in a really optimized fashion, which was still, by the way, very much early innings of seeing, then that company is actually headcount may look a little bit different. So we're seeing actually smaller companies being able to produce more ARR and more velocity of ARR annual recurring revenue at a much faster clip. And so that's kind of a new rubric we're trying to get around.

但归根结底，我们坚持一个核心理念：产品必须具有竞争壁垒，必须为客户创造价值。仅仅在网址或公司名称中加入'AI'并不意味着能大获成功，因为竞争对手完全可以复制你的模式。所以我们始终在寻找能带来持续确定增长的护城河。

But no, our fundamental philosophy around having a product that is defensible, that is providing customer value is still critical. Just because you have AI in your URL or your name does not necessarily mean you will be a wildly successful company because other companies then can do exactly what you're doing. So we always look for that defensibility that gives you enduring certain growth.

确实。我注意到如今不同规模的企业都在尝试嵌入各种新工具来提升效率。无论哪个行业，利用工具实现更优表现已成为普遍期待。不知道你们是否也在日常流程中测试和应用某些AI工具？

Yeah. I wonder everybody, all different companies today, different sizes are embedding and testing new tools, right, to be more effective. Matter the industry, I think the expectation of being better performing using tools is for everybody. I wonder, are you guys testing and embedding some of the AI tools in your day by day processes?

我们正在尝试。比如团队里有几位成员会利用AI进行人才挖掘——你可以上传LinkedIn联系人数据，结合合作伙伴信息，通过ChatGPT查询构建人脉知识图谱，快速理清'谁在哪个公司任职'这类信息。这类小工具确实很方便。

You know, we're trying. I think a couple of us do it from a from a sourcing mechanism, for example. You can kind of upload your LinkedIn contacts and when that with all of your partners and then use ChatGPT and kind of query and look through exactly who's who and where do they work and almost get a knowledge graph by yourself. That's very easy. So there's these small email email generation and writing an email that you could send over to a prospect if I'm trying to email a CEO.

就连我们Sapphire内部也在用AI优化工作流。特别是在客户支持工单处理方面，基于企业特定数据集训练的AI能立即生成精准回复，而非泛泛而谈的答案。这只是众多应用场景中的一个典型案例。

There are these pieces of our workflow that even at Sapphire we're hacking around with. I would say within my companies, it's even more significant around things like customer support tickets, right, and being able to respond pretty immediately with an intelligible answer that's trained on a specific company's data set of customer support. So it's not super generic. That's a that's a huge area, amongst many others. So, no, we are seeing it.

但马可，我必须指出：AI在企业生产环境中的实际应用仍处于萌芽阶段。很多人还在摸索如何确保输出相关性，特别是面对客户沟通时如何避免产生幻觉答案。

But I will say, Marko, that true enterprise In production. Uses of AI is still very nascent. Yeah, it's still a lot of people trying to figure out how do we use this? How do we make sure it doesn't hallucinate? How do we make sure it's relevant for art, especially if it's customer facing communication?

这些都是关键问题。虽然目前尚不成熟，但我们相信假以时日终将解决。这也解释了为什么现在有这么多团队专注攻克这些难题。

That's critical stuff. Right. And so that is still very nascent, but we fully expect that over time, we're going to figure it out. That's why you see so many people kind of working away at this right now.

容我打个广告——我们开发的一款工具已被多家CVC采用，它能基于精确定义的语义对特定产品进行筛选。当你有明确搜索需求时，它能直接输出符合要求的执行摘要和数据集，显著提升数据流转效率。虽然称不上革命性突破，但确实提供了更好的工具。作为风投，你认为什么样的工具可能成为真正的颠覆者？

And this is actually for us is a shameless plug, but we do have a tool that a bunch of CVCs are using today to support really filtering of specific products based on well defined semantics, especially if you have a specific search, right? So that gives obviously a better flow of data already in the format that you want, with executive summaries that you want, with a focus on a subset of data that you want. So that's definitely helping. I don't think it's a revolution, but it's definitely providing better tools. What do you think would be a tool that could be really a game changer as a VC?

有什么能让你的生活更轻松吗？或者说，这可能根本不是能转化为AI的东西。

What would make your life much easier, if any, right? Or maybe this is not something then could be translated into an AI.

我认为我们的工作很大程度上集中在两个方面。首先是从资源获取的角度。没错。我们工作中很大一部分就是整合互联网上的所有研究成果。

I think so much of our job really is that well, probably two areas. One, at the sourcing angle. Right. So much of our job is taking into account all the research that's out there on the Internet. Right.

然后尝试从中提取有效信号，并自动化生成一封高度契合CEO语境的邮件。基于所有这些现有研究，这需要大量人工操作。虽然有些网页抓取技术，也可以手动让数据科学家处理，但即使是最后的生成环节——如果能通过人机协作实现自动化，确保沟通内容适合目标公司的CEO，那将非常有意思。

And trying to find signal in it and then automating a creation of a very contextually relevant email to the CEO. Right. Based on all of that research that's out there, that's a lot of manual work. And yeah, you have some web scraping technologies and you could do it manually with data scientists and other things. But even the generation, the last piece, I think that that would be super interesting if you could somehow automate that with the human in the loop to make sure that the communication is ready for the CEO that you're trying to email, the company you're trying to email.

第二个领域是我们从融资提案中获得的海量数据。目前Saphyr的做法是手动输入所有数据用于基准分析，以了解SaaS公司的表现。什么是行业顶尖指标？优秀企业的人员配比标准是什么？如果能实现自动化处理...

I would say a second area is there's a ton of data that we have in our board presentations that we get from companies that pitch us. Right now, what we do at Saphyr is we actually input all of that data manually for purposes of benchmarking to learn more about how SaaS companies are performing. What are the best in class metrics? What are the best in class headcount ratios for well performing businesses? If that could be more automated, right?

不仅要整理这些数据、确保数值无误，还要生成有逻辑的叙述报告——不仅是图表，更要形成条理清晰的英文分析。我觉得这方面也很有潜力。但说实话Mark，这类机会太多了。真正原生的生成式AI应用企业尚未成型，我们其实都还不清楚哪些会成为巨头。

Taking out all of those and making sense of the numbers and making sure there's errors on that and putting that and then generating narratives around that, not just charts, but actually written English narratives that are sensible. I think that would be really interesting as well. But I'll tell you, Mark, there's so many of these. I think the, you know, native Gen AI application businesses are still yet to be formed. I don't think we really all know what those huge businesses will be.

现在很多企业自称是原生AI公司，但微软等传统软件商完全可以通过叠加AI功能实现同样效果。所以哪些业务必须从诞生就深度绑定这项技术，才能对传统厂商形成根本优势？这正是SAPPHI重点关注的。

Right now, there's a lot of businesses saying they're native AI businesses. But then you can point to Microsoft or some incumbent software provider and say, well, why don't they just layer in AI and do the same thing? Right. So what are those businesses that need to be native from the start in leveraging and being born on this technology will have a fundamental advantage to the incumbents? I think that's the thing at SAPPHI are really watching out for.

我们确实看到更多垂直领域应用。比如深耕法律或医疗行业，利用特定领域数据和知识构建的解决方案更具持久性。记得我提过的护城河理论吗？这类专业化的AI应用比通用型营销AI更具防御性。

We do see a lot more vertical applications. So someone that goes really deep in a legal vertical, in a health care vertical where you have a lot of domain specific data and knowledge, that's a little bit more durable. And remember I mentioned moat and defensibility. We feel like that's a little bit more defensible than just a generic sort of AI for marketing sort of play.

我认为这是一个很好的过渡点，关于我们当前的处境以及经济低迷如何影响你们的部署节奏？我的意思是，2023年显然是部署速度至少发生变化的一年。首先我想问，你之前提到你们确实有一些内部模型在SaaS软件中运行。我认为还有很多建模工作可以做。你们现在评估公司时，模型是否因经济低迷的现状而有所调整？

I think that's a good segue where we stand and how is today the economical downturn kind of changing your pace of deployment? I mean, it's pretty clear 2023 is definitely the time in the year where at least the speed of deployment has changed. I will start by asking you, you mentioned before you do have obviously some internal models working in a SaaS software. There's a lot of, I think, modeling that can be built. Is your models when you're today evaluating companies kind of changed based on where we stand in terms of the economical downturn?

是的，这很有趣。任何公司的价值从数学角度而言，都基于财务数据——未来现金流的现值。因此盈利能力一直很重要。当然在零利率环境下，增长变得至关重要，甚至对华尔街和上市公司而言几乎成了唯一标准。而现在我认为像我们这样的风投机构和其他人，都重新开始关注每家公司长期盈利的能力。

Yeah, it's funny. Value of any company very mathematically, just based on finance, the present value of the future cash flow. So ability to generate profits has always been important. Of course, in a zero interest environment, growth became critical even for Wall Street and public companies and almost the only thing that mattered. And I think now the VCs like us and others are really back to looking at the ability for any single company to be profitable in the long run.

所以即使是2000万或3000万美元的年度经常性收入（ARR），也有方法进行评估。不仅要看业务的销售效率单位经济性，还要看毛利率。长期以来人们认为毛利率不重要，无论是55%还是85%都无所谓。

So even at 20 or 30,000,000 of ARR, there are ways to kind of look at that. It's not just the unit economics of the sales efficiency of the business, but it's also the gross margin of the business. Right. For a long time, people like gross margin doesn't matter. If it's 55% or 85%, it doesn't matter.

但现在这变得重要了。我听到越来越多人询问毛利率问题，包括毛留存率。过去人们更关注净留存率，而我现在会重点询问毛留存率，因为这意味着即使在经济低迷期，如果毛留存率高，说明你的产品仍是必需品。当然客户可能不会增购，但也不会彻底弃用。

That matters. And I hear a lot more people asking questions on gross margin, including gross retention. People would focus a lot on net retention rates. And I now I ask a lot of questions on gross retention rates, because that means even in a downturn, if your gross retention is high, you still have a must have product. Sure, people may not be buying more for you, but they're also not going to just completely rip you out.

因此保持90%以上的毛留存率确实非常关键。最后是关于增长的调整——说实话，2020和2021年看到的增长率是人为虚高的。风投要求一家ARR 1000万美元的公司必须增长三倍才算好企业是不公平的。我们对此持开放态度。

And so having gross retention rates that are well into the 90% is is really critical as well. And then finally, an adjustment on growth. You know, let's be honest, the growth rates that we saw in 2020 and 2021 were artificially high. So it's unfair for a VC to go to a 10,000,000 ARR company and say, unless you're tripling, you're not a good business. That far, we're open.

无论你是增长三倍、两倍还是70%，只要规模相当，只要财务的其他方面和组成部分合理——就像我提到的，与增长相关的效率和支出水平——我们都愿意考虑。我们更倾向于综合评估这些指标，而非单纯追求增长激素。

If you're not tripling, if you're doubling, if you're growing 70%, if you're whatever it is, depending on the scale, we're open to that as long as the other facets and components of the financials make sense. Like I mentioned, the efficiency and the spend levels related to that growth. So we really try to take more of a holistic view around those metrics versus just growth hormone.

明白了。我很好奇在你们这样规模的公司里，这种内部指标转变或调整是如何成为投资决策要点的？你们是在周一会议上定义这些标准并分享给合伙人，明确现在应该关注什么吗？这种转变是通过周一会议达成共识的吗？

Got it. And I'm curious to understand in a firm also of your size, this shift or changes internally as metrics that would make really the spot for considering investment, do you define on Monday meetings and you share among partners, okay, that's what we should now be focusing on. That's how the shift happens. So do you agree on the Monday meetings about those?

不，我的意思是，我认为这更自然一些。Marco，一直有公司在向我们推销。我们正在接触、感到兴奋并了解的公司。当我们事后讨论我们喜欢这家公司的哪些方面，可能担忧什么，需要做哪些尽职调查时，我认为某些合伙人自然会想更关注某些领域，而这些领域至关重要。所以我们并非对市场环境充耳不闻。

No, I mean, I think it's a little more organic. Marco, there's companies that are pitching us all the time. There's companies we're speaking to and excited about and learning about. And when we discuss in a debrief what we liked about the company, what maybe we're concerned by, what we need to diligence, I think it sort of comes out right that certain partners and want to focus on certain areas more so and that these areas are critical. And so we're not tone deaf to the environment.

我认为这些确实是应该关注的重点领域。最终注意力也会集中到这些方面。但对我们来说并非硬性转变。企业拥有强劲的单位经济效益并展示长期现金流的能力一直很重要。我想说，与其说是某家风投公司的转向，不如说是对此重新加强了关注。

And I think those are the right areas to focus on. And eventually that's where the focus becomes. But it's not a hard shift for us. The ability to have for companies, you know, having strong unit economics and showing cash flow in the long term was always important. I would say it's, you know, there's more of a renewed focus on it versus a pivot for any single venture capital firm.

确实，如果说有什么不同的话，前两三年可能才是例外时期，对吧？因为正如你所说，那段时间完全是由零利率推动的。

Yeah, so if anything, probably the previous two or three years were an exception, right, because they were really fueled by, as you said, zero interest rates.

完全正确，Marco。

That's exactly right, Marco.

在当前模式下，你如何平衡对仍建立在旧模式（即不惜一切代价增长）上的现有投资组合公司的支持，与新机会的定义以及如何部署更多资金之间的关系？

How do you balance today the support with the existing companies of your portfolio that were still built on the previous model, right, on growth at all costs versus the definition of new opportunities and how to deploy more capital in the

这始终是我们工作中的平衡艺术，对吧？一方面，有限合伙人付钱让我们在合理时间内部署和投资更多资金。另一方面，我们也需要创造回报，这意味着要帮助现有投资组合公司。就我个人而言，以2023年8月为例，我可能每周有一半时间都花在投资组合公司上，无论是董事会会议、临时会议、某些计划的重置预测、招聘计划、产品更新等等。

current model. It is always a balancing act in our job, right? On one hand, we are paid from our limited partners to deploy and invest more capital over a reasonable time period. On the other hand, we're also paid to generate returns, which means helping your existing portfolio companies. I would say for me personally, my time today, let's say August 2023, I probably spent half of any given week with my portfolio companies, whether it's board meetings, interim meetings, reforecasting of certain plans, hiring initiatives, product updates, what have you.

如果是在2021年8月问我这个问题，可能这个比例只有20%。

I would say if you would have asked me at this time, August 2021, maybe it would have been 20%.

哦，哇，差别真大。

Oh, wow. So significantly different.

是双倍的，双倍的。马可，尽管AI领域充满热情这很好，我们也同样抱有这种热情，尤其是长期来看，但私募市场的公司正在挣扎。这是个艰难的市场，第一季度确实很艰难。

It's double. It's double. And that's because, Marco, despite the exuberance around AI, which is great and we have the same enthusiasm, particularly over the long term, Companies in the private markets are struggling. It's a tough market. Q1 was really tough.

对一些企业来说，第二季度可能与第一季度相似，有的稍好一些，有的稍差一些。我希望我们正在触底，可以这么说，这与运营表现有关。我隐约能感觉到底部。情况不再像去年第四季度和今年第一季度那样出现巨大的负面意外了。第二季度感觉我们正在触底。

Q2 was probably similar to Q1 for some businesses, a little better for some, a little worse. I'm hopeful that we're feeling the bottom, so to speak, it relates to operating performance. I can kind of feel the bottom. Things aren't getting there aren't massive negative surprises anymore as there were in Q4 last year and Q1 this year. Q2 kind of feels like we're feeling the bottom.

但这个底部仍然是个挑战。正如你刚才提到的，这仍然意味着许多公司需要进行大量调整，重新设计DNA，以在这个新市场中转型。这需要大量时间、指导和耐心。说到底，我们都在一起面对。

But that bottom is still a challenge. It still means a lot of retooling, a reengineering of DNA for many companies, as you just mentioned, to transform themselves in this new sort of market. And so that takes a lot of time, a lot of guidance, a lot of patience. We're all in it together at the end of the day.

是的，显然在这种环境下，我认为上市的窗口——这个我们作为风投、作为投资者都在等待的金融事件——已经某种程度上关闭了。我的意思是，虽然我们偶尔能看到一些小规模的重新开放，但总体而言，至少与2021年相比相差甚远，你之前提到过。

Yeah, and obviously in that environment, I think the window to go public, which is the financial event that we're all waiting for as VCs, as investors, has somewhat closed. I mean, are some small reopenings we see here and there, but for the most part, at least nothing compared to 2021, you mentioned before. What

关键

key

你的投资组合公司现在需要具备哪些关键特征，才能在短期内为计划中的退出做好准备？

characteristics does your portfolio company to have today in order to be on a path for a planned exit in a short term?

这取决于退出方式。如果你瞄准公开市场，答案是肯定的。考虑到目前已有大量上市软件公司，我记得有数据显示大约1500家独角兽科技企业对吧？这1500家都会存活下来，并且都将走向上市。

Well, depends on what the exit is. I think if you're aiming for the public markets, Yes. Because of the deluge of public software companies already out there and what I suspect, remember, there's a quote on this, but I think 1,500 unicorn businesses, technology businesses, right? All of those 1,500 survive. All those 1,500 are going go public.

但即使其中10%成功上市，未来五年也会有150家软件公司IPO，数量相当可观。华尔街投资者对这些公司的关注度终有上限，需要筛选重点。我注意到规模更大的公司更容易脱颖而出。所以不要在一亿美元营收时就上市，说实话现在三亿才是新的一亿五。

But even if 10% of them do 150, that's a lot of public offerings of software companies, let's say, the next five years. At some point, there's only so much appetite for Wall Street investors covering those companies to figure out what to focus on. So what I've noticed is companies that have more scale can stand out. So don't go public when you have 100,000,000 of revenue. I think 300,000,000 honestly is the new 150,000,000.

哇，真的吗？

Wow. Really have

你这么认为吗？你觉得差距有这么大，达到三倍？

to You think so? You think it's that different, like 3x?

确实如此。企业必须具备足够规模，这很关键。第二点常被忽视的是可预测性。就拿今年第二季度来说，我那些ARR在1亿到2亿美元的业务至今仍难以准确预测。

I believe so. And so you have to have significant scale. That's critical. I think number two, and people don't talk about a lot is predictability, forecast ability. Even right now in Q2 of this year, for my businesses that are 100, 150, 200 of ARR, we're still not able to forecast.

执行问题确实存在，但主要源于宏观环境和软件采购市场仍不稳定。上市公司必须确保能围绕目标数字制定计划并达成，否则将面临至少18到24个月的市场惩罚，无论后续表现多好。第三点更微妙：必须清晰展示盈利路径，最好从首日就接近盈利。遵循40法则指标至关重要。

Execution issues, but a lot of that is because the macro environment in the buying environment for most software is still volatile. It's still being figured out. Any company needs to make sure you can plan around a number and hit that number, Because if you don't in the public markets, you will be penalized for at least eighteen or twenty four months, regardless of how good your performance is afterwards. The third thing I would say is a little more nuanced is around obviously showing the path to profitability and actually almost being profitable from day one is critical. Measuring yourself around a rule of 40 metric is critical.

但更重要的是平台叙事——我那些在对冲基金、共同基金工作的朋友常说，关键要看这是个小软件还是具备持续增长潜力的平台。风投界常追逐100%增长率，但增长持续性比任何时点的增速都重要。100%会降到50%，也可能反弹到205%。

But more important than that, I hear this from my friends who work at hedge funds and mutual funds and public market investors is, is there a platform story? Is this a small software application or is this a story that can be sort of a platform that can continue to have durable growth? You know, people oftentimes in venture capital land, they invest and they say, wow, the growth rate was 100%. But I would say growth persistence or growth durability is more important than any point in time. 100% becomes 50% and becomes 205%.

那是一家多年来价值不高的企业。但如果像HubSpot现在这样，从30%起步并保持在30%的水平长达七年，这种增长的持续性和韧性是相当可观的。原因在于市场规模庞大，而且他们现在已成为一个平台，在多产品战略上执行得非常出色。这些平台多产品元素有点像是失传的艺术，现在没多少软件公司能做好这一点。

That's a business that's not worth much for years. But if you start at 30% and you just stay at 30% like HubSpot is doing now, right, for seven years, that growth durability and persistence is a lot. The reason that that is because the market size is big and now they're a platform where they really execute well on a multi product story. Those platform multi product elements is a bit of a lost art. Not many software companies do that well.

这也是我对我现有公司以及我接触的新公司都特别关注的一点。

And that's something I have an eye on for my existing companies as well as new companies I talk to.

确实如此。我认为你所说的这一切都导致公司选择更长时间保持私有化，至少以当前视角来看是这样，对吧？非常

Yeah, that's very true. I believe that everything you're saying here is leading to companies stay private longer, at least with today's view, right? Very

正确。而且很多会以私募股权收购或与其他公司合并的方式退出。这其实没关系，毕竟上市并非终极目标。作为董事会成员、投资者，我相信创始人和CEO们也认同，核心在于股东价值最大化。这是我对公司负有的受托责任。

much so. And a lot of exits to private equity firms and consolidation with other companies. And that's Okay, by the way, going public is not the end all be all. As a board member, as an investor, and I'm sure as founders, CEOs, it's about maximizing shareholder value. That's the fiduciary I have the companies.

如果这意味着被Salesforce、SAP Oracle收购，或是与Vista合并（不管你是Tom还是Bravo），只要能为公司实现当前和长期的股东价值最大化，那就是最佳路径。这完全没问题，没什么好羞愧的。对吧？我认为未来五年我们会看到更多这类情况。

And if that means the path is is Salesforce or an SAP Oracle has to acquire you or a Vista, where you're Tom or Bravo, that's the best path for the company to maximize current but also long term shareholder value. That's Okay as well. There's no shame in that. Right? And I think you're going to see a lot more of that here over the next five years.

我很好奇，就你目前担任董事的所有董事会而言，是否可以说过去几年大家对退出路径的看法确实发生了变化？平均而言你会把这个时间点推迟一两年吗？是不是

I wonder, I mean, is that fair to say in all the boards that you're sitting these days that the view to an exit has definitely changed over the last couple of years. Are you adding one or two years to that event on average? Is that

是的。Marco，要知道在2021年年中时，我敢说那1500家独角兽里有一半都认为自己能在2022或2023年退出。确实，我们现在

a Yeah. I mean, Marco, there was a point in time in the middle of 2021 where I'm sure out of those 1,500 unicorns, half thought that they could exit in 2022, 2023. Yeah, we have

几个

a couple

那些。没错。而且市场，IPO市场已经关闭。但人们没有意识到的是，他们总是问，Rajeev，IPO窗口何时会重新开放？其实这更多与人为设定的窗口期无关。

of those. Right. And the market, the IPO market shut down. But what people don't realize is they always say, Rajeev, when will the IPO window open? Yeah, it's really less about this artificial window.

更重要的是。正如我刚才所说，企业的业绩表现和可预测性何时能恢复？一旦恢复，任何公司都能上市。人们会愿意的，尤其是现在利率已经趋于稳定，我们知道它们会走向何方。企业就可以上市了。

It's more about. When will the performance of businesses and the predictability, as I just said, of these businesses return? Once that returns, any company can go help. People will want to, you know, and now especially that interest rates have somewhat stabilized, I think we know where they're going to go. They can go public.

所以这更多取决于企业的业绩表现。而对许多企业来说，这需要再等上两三年甚至四年。

So it's more about the performance of the businesses. And that is taking just two, three, four years longer for a lot of businesses.

是的。我是说，我们很乐意一年后再聊这个话题，届时世界肯定会完全不同，我们看看我是否——

Yeah. I mean, we'll love to have this conversation a year from now and the world would for sure be totally different and we'll see if I

能预测得更准确些，是的。

can and a lot better, predict yeah.

准确得多。但我同意你的观点，感觉我们正在触底反弹。至少我认为，如今我们已掌握了规划新指标的工具，知道如何即使在这种环境下也能取得成功。Rajiv，感谢你的见解，非常、非常感谢，我们期待再次交流。

A lot better, but I mean, I am with you that it feels like we're bouncing from at the bottom and clearly at least I think we have the tools today to plan for the new metrics and how to be successful even in these conditions. Rajiv, listen, thanks for your insights. Very, very appreciated, very much appreciated, and we'll love to talk again.

谢谢，马可。非常感谢。保重。

Thanks, Marco. Appreciate it. Take care.

保重。再见。

Care. Too. Bye bye.

感谢您今天与我们相聚，我们下期《开放创新对话：Mind the Bridge与行业领袖对话》节目再见。

Thank you for being with us today and see you in the next episode of Open Innovation Talks Mind the Bridge Chat with Industry Leaders.