第15集 - 如何在80年后依然保持创新的火花？

创新必须源于我们内心，而非产品本身。当我们决定这样做并投资于人时，正是因为希望创新能深入人心。这应当成为每天清晨的第一个念头。那么如何将这种理念灌输给员工？展示缺乏创新可能带来的后果。

Innovation must be inside us, not in the product. When we decided to do this and we decided to invest on the people, is because we want the innovation to go inside the people. It must be the first thought every morning. So how do you instill that into your employees? Showing what could happen if you have no innovation.

深度访谈科技领域最具影响力的创新高管，独家解析全球主要及新兴生态系统的数据与洞见，汇集全球层面的科技与开放式创新热点资讯——每期节目都将呈现这些精彩内容及更多。欢迎收听《开放式创新对话》。与行业领袖进行Mind the Bridge深度对谈。

In-depth interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena, exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world, the hottest news on technology and open innovation at a global level, This and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks. Mind the bridge chat with industry leaders.

我想探讨的核心议题是：如何为一家像贵公司这样拥有80多年历史的企业保持创新活力。这也是全球许多企业共同面临的普遍性框架。

The main topic that I would like to address is how to maintain the spark of innovation for a company that is, in your case, 80 plus years old. And this is kind of a general framework that many companies around the world have.

首先感谢Mind the Bridge为我们团队主持这个重要时段。我们非常信任年轻员工，特别是那些秉承公司使命、具有创新精神的成员——我们始终以创新产品和创新流程引领行业为使命。

Yeah, well, of all, you. Thank you for Mind the Bridge to host this important period of time for our people and we believe a lot in our young employees and mainly the one that has some spirit that is following the main mission of our company that has always been to be leading the industry in terms of innovative products and innovative process.

让我们聊聊PENNICODIA旗下数千家全球企业的历史。他们最初针对某个问题开发特定解决方案，随后围绕其构建商业模式。能否为我们梳理下发展历程？

Let's talk a little bit about the history of PENNICODIA's several thousand companies around the world, they started working on a very specific solution for a problem and then they build a business around it. Maybe guide us a little of the history, how it

最初的创业史是典型的意大利战后故事。我们很快发现自己在做的产品并非独此一家，于是当即决定要走差异化路线——传递与竞争对手不同的品牌理念。我认为这正是成功的关键，因为幸运的是，我们的竞争对手在...

was The the initial history has been a typical Italian history after post war and immediately we found out that we were not alone doing the product that we are doing, we are making. And immediately we said we need to do something different from the other. We need to pass a message that is different from our competitors. And I think this was the key of our success, because luckily enough for us, our competitors are quite dormant in terms of

创新方面较为停滞。那么第一个客户是什么时候？您提到战后时期，也就是50年代，最初的市场开拓是怎样的？

innovation. What was the first, so you're talking about after the war, so in the 50s, was the first client? How was the initial

最初在意大利的客户主要是国内消费者，不仅包括像Pellegrino或可口可乐这样的大品牌，还有成千上万生产饮料的小作坊，比如Spuma这类多少带点家庭作坊性质的产品，我不知道英语里该怎么称呼它。

Well, the initial were national domestic customers in Italy, not only the big names like some Pellegrino or Coke, but also there were thousands of people producing drinks, more or less house made products like Spuma, I don't know how to say it in English.

是一种汽水。

It's a soda.

这是一种试图模仿可口可乐或本地生产的饮品，比如gazos、sas Puma之类的，这些都是那个时期的客户。虽然规模小但遍布各地。

It's a it's a drink that is in a way trying to copy coke or local production, gazos, sas Puma, and those were the customers of that period of time. So small customers but spread all over it.

我认为这实际上也抓住了机遇。意大利在50、60、70年代经历了经济繁荣期，这使你们一路发展成为行业领军者。

And that was actually, I think, also taken advantage of. There was the economical boom of Italy the 50s, 60s, 70s, and that took you all the way to becoming the leader

是的，我们必须感谢我们的创始人——也就是我妻子的祖父，他具有企业家精神，不惜大量举债投资公司。这家公司曾两次被炸毁。

Yes, in the have to thank our founder that is the grandfather of my wife, that has this entrepreneurship spirit and make a lot of debt to invest in the company. The company was bombed two times.

字面意思就是在战争期间被轰炸了。

So literally bombed during the war.

没错，是在战争期间，之后又重建了。所以当我们谈论到，如果你遇到问题，就必须站起来。而轰炸确实是个大问题。对这个男人来说——我不想说是贫困家庭，但确实是非常普通的工薪家庭，只有一个女儿（也就是我妻子的母亲），规模很小，但他展现出了极强的韧性。

Yes, during the war and it started again. So this is when we are talking, if you do, if you have a problem, you have to stand up. And a bum is a real problem. A bum is a real problem. And for this man, that was a very, very, I don't want to say poor family, but very medium average family with one daughter that is the mother of my wife, very small but he was the yes time to resilient.

坚韧不拔，确实如此。

Resilient, yes that's definitely.

真正的肯定

To the real yes

我们随即发现，要想成功就必须与众不同。这条法则在创业的诸多方面或多或少都适用。

and and immediately we found out we must be different to have a success. This is a law that is more or less valid in many aspects of entrepreneurship.

我们来聊聊这个。回顾利科尼项目最初开发阶段，你认为当时的创新点是什么？是在工艺流程还是生产制造方面？

Let's talk about this. What do you think in retrospect was innovation back at the beginning of the first development phase of the Likoni? What was the innovation there? In the process, in the manufacturing?

嗯，我可以告诉你。第一个真正的创新是，当时瓶盖的标准高度是6.75毫米。后来我们联合钢厂，决定向客户推荐更浅的瓶盖。比标准尺寸更小

Well, I can tell you. The first real innovation was, at that time the caps were at a night height that was 6.75 millimeter. And then we, together steelworks, with we decided to propose to our customers a caps that is shallower. Smaller than

这样，好的。

this, okay.

改动不大。虽然客户需要调整灌装设备，但节省的成本很可观。这个创新让佩利科尼独树一帜，因为当时整个市场都采用6.75毫米规格——主要是由于瓶盖内嵌的软木塞。

Not much. Not by much, but they had to change bottling machinery, but the saving was used. And that was the first thing that in a way make Peliconi unique because all the market was on $6.75 mainly because of the cork that was inside the cap.

所以投标书还在那个软木塞上吗？

So the tender was still at the actual cork?

软木塞，是的。

Cork, yes.

持续到什么时候

Until what time

在塑料出现之前？70年代。

in the Before plastics? 70s.

在70年代，啤酒瓶里还在使用软木塞，

In the 70s, were still using cork inside a bottle of beer,

软木塞，但像是一个点。

Cork but like a and a spot.

衬垫，是的。

Liner, yes.

有意思。然后我们转向那个方向。第二个重大步骤是减少瓶盖的厚度。这在某种程度上也降低了瓶盖的工业成本。接着就到了淘汰PVC的时代，我们是市场上首家推出非PVC瓶盖的企业。可以说发展到今天，我们有了新产品和新差异化，因为我们意识到在当今世界，像过去那样的标准化瓶盖产品将不复存在，因为如今每个人都希望与众不同，追求独特，标准化产品已不再成功。

Interesting. Then we moved to that. Then the second big step was decreasing the thickness of the caps. That also was in a way reducing the industrial cost of the caps. Then it became the time of abandoning the PVC and we were the first to offer the market the non PVC caps and I would say coming to today we have new products and new differentiation, because one thing we realize is that in today's world, another product like the caps, as it was, will never take place, because today everybody wants to be different, in a way unique, and so standard products are no more successful.

那么我们来谈谈当今形势以及内部创新的一些重要性。这个市场在某种程度上发展非常缓慢，因为灌装过程中存在诸多复杂问题。实际上已有一些创新，我认为佩利科尼本身就是部分创新的推动者。能否为普通观众简单介绍一下瓶盖行业还有哪些创新正在涌现？

So let's talk about today's and some of the importance of innovation from within. Again, it's a market that I think is very to some extent it moves very slowly because it's, you know, downhill at a bunch of complications in the process of bottling and so on and so forth. There's been some innovation, actually, I think peliconi itself was the driver of some of that innovation. Us a little bit for the generic audience to understand what some other innovations are coming in the cupping industry?

我们在涂料系统方面进行了创新，开发了名为BP非意图型的产品，即涂料中的双酚替代方案。

Well, innovations are coming on the lacquer system that we developed what is called BP non intent, bisphenol in the varnish.

请告诉我们什么是普通观众？

So tell us what are generic audiences?

现今常用的涂料和清漆通常含有双酚，这种物质能增强涂料的弹性使其更易施工。但人们发现双酚有害健康，尤其对儿童不利。虽然婴儿奶瓶等产品中的双酚多年前就已禁用，但在塑料瓶盖中仍存在。你们工艺流程中需要寻找更健康的替代方案。我们还将推出其他创新，特别是在瓶盖设计方面，我们深刻认识到当今客户真正追求的是独特性。

Normally varnishes, lacquer like today contain bisphenol that is something that gives the varnish more elasticity, so it's very easy then to apply. But they found out that the bisphenol is not good for our health, especially in the kids. You think bisphenol in baby bottles and things like that are gone already for years, but in the caps and in the plastic caps they are still there. It's Part of your process was to find Yes, alternative, a more healthier solution. We will have other innovation and hopefully some will come from this period of time, but especially in the design of the caps, we wanna we understood that the customers today is really looking for something unique.

有个很好的例子就是拉环式瓶盖，最初被大型啤酒商采用，如今在中国和部分欧洲国家取得了巨大成功。

We had the good example is the ring pull cap that was adopted at the beginning from big brewers and today is becoming, especially in China and in some countries of Europe, a very successful

这不只是针对易拉罐，你说的是瓶装产品对吧？

This is not just for the cans, you're talking about bottles,

总是瓶子。

Always bottles.

怎么称呼那个环？

How do call that the ring?

MaxiP或拉环什么的，因为有个环可以撕开？对，对。而且我们正在开发一个新的促销系统，因为这是客户寻求的独特性领域。他们想在瓶盖里做促销，但希望这种促销比过去更灵活。过去是写着'你赢了一辆奔驰'或'你赢了'，然后就有问题，因为促销结束后还有很多其他瓶盖流通，你不可能永远保留T恤、冰箱这些东西。

MaxiP or ring pull or whatever, because there's a ring that you you tear? Yes, yes. And well, we are developing a new system for promotion because this is field of unicity that customers are looking for. They want to do promotion in the caps, but they want to have this type of promotion that is more flexible than in the past. The past were writing, you won a Mercedes or you won and then there was a problem because when the promotion finished there were some many other caps in and the you didn't want to keep t shirts, keep a refrigerator, keep that Forever.

永远保留因为也许。

Be forever because maybe.

你们是怎么解决这个问题的？

How did you solve that?

我们用二维码解决了这个问题，二维码由客户直接管理，他们可以更改价格，二维码更灵活且更容易进行促销。

We solved that with QR code and so the QR code is managed by our customers directly, so they can change the price that QR code is more flexible and much more easy to do a promotion.

我认为另一个重要因素在包装领域具有决定性影响，那就是整个可持续发展运动，这很合理。你们感受到很大压力。我们知道尤其是包装材料是全球主要污染源之一，能看到河流水域等触目惊心的画面。那么这些因素有多少被纳入你们当前的流程中？不仅是报告层面，而是真正作为创新文化的一部分？

So the other big force that I think is determinant in your space of packaging in general the whole movement of sustainability and rightly so. So you feel a lot of pressure. We know that especially the packaging is one of the major polluters around the world. You see terrifying pictures of waters, rivers and whatnot. So how much of that is being then incorporated within your current process, not just in terms of reporting, but really as a part of the culture of innovation?

是的，PELICONI对可持续性非常重视。我们早在2010年就任命了可持续发展经理。自2010年起我们就有可持续发展报告，当时全意大利只有50家企业拥有这样的报告。如今我们不断进步，我们的可持续发展报告由德勤会计师事务所认证，因为他们是我们指定的审计方。我们坚信企业不仅要在财务层面接受评判，更要在可持续性方面经受考验。每当受邀谈论可持续性时，我总会强调：如今人们常把可持续性等同于环境保护，但可持续性远不止于环境层面。

Yes, PELICONI is very sensitive to sustainability. We appointed one sustainability manager already since 2010. We have a sustainability report since 2010 and we were among only 50 companies in all Italy to have a sustainable report at that time. Today we are moving forward, our sustainability report is certified by Deloitte, that is our auditors, because we believe that the company must be judged not only in financial terms but also in sustainability terms. And this I always say when I'm asked to talk about sustainability is that we have today I see that sustainability is mainly related to environment, but sustainability is not related only to environment.

可持续性意味着业务必须具有可持续性，创新必须内化于我们自身而非仅存于产品。我们之所以决定这样做并投资于人才，正是希望将创新精神根植于每个人的心中。

It's sustainable, the business must be sustainable, innovation must be inside us, not in the product. And what we when we decided to do this and we decided to invest on the people is because we want the innovation to go inside the people.

那么您是如何——我认为这很棒——建立起创新文化的？具体而言，您对其他面临相同挑战的企业有什么建议？正如本次对话的主题所言，如何才能保持创新的火花

So how do you it's great as I think it's helped to build a culture of innovation. In practical terms, what suggestions do you have for other companies that are facing the same issues? How to maintain, kind of the title of this conversation, how to maintain the spark of innovation

不灭。员工参与度就是可持续性，这必须成为每天早晨的第一要务。

alive. Engagement be like is the sustainability, it must be the first thought every morning.

那么您如何将这种理念灌输给员工？

So how do you instill that into your employees?

通过展示缺乏创新可能导致的后果，这非常容易理解。甚至在个人职业发展中也显而易见——一个思维缺乏创新的人很难攀登至顶峰。

Showing what could happen if you have no innovation and this is very easy to understand. It's very easy to understand even in career of people. It's very difficult to find someone that make and arrive to the top if he has no innovation in his mind.

明白了。所以这也是你们评估员工成果的标准之一，不仅要完成本职工作，更要看他们额外贡献的价值、创造力以及企业家精神

Got it. And so that's part of your process of also judging the outcome of people, it's not just to do their own work, but also what are they adding on top, how creative they are, how entrepreneurial they

改变的意愿，不仅仅是为了改变，而是改变的意志。在我的人生中，我一直秉持这个理念，甚至开车去办公室时，我从不走相同的路线。今天走这里，明天走那里。

The will to change, not just for change, but the will to change. In my life I've always think to that even when I drive to the office, I never do the same road. One day there, one day there.

这就是为什么有时你稍微深入办公室，就会学到一条新路线，这可能是个

That's why sometimes you get a little into the office, you learn a new road, that's probably a

好

good

例子。

example.

我不喜欢重复性的事物。所以

I don't like things that are repetitive. So

你有什么潜在建议能在公司内部创造激励机制？显然，这就是激励机制的一个例子，对吧？因此还需要建立一个正式流程来筛选各部门最有价值的创意，这些创意不一定来自你所在的部门。还有呢？嗯，

what potential suggestion would you have to create incentives inside a company? Obviously, is an example of this incentive, right, so creating also in a formal process to filter the most interesting ideas that can come from every department, doesn't have to be in your department. Else? Well,

我认为激励机制正变得越来越重要。激励方式可以多样化，因为如果要激励一个意大利人，与激励中国人、埃及人或我们所在地区的其他人是不同的。

incentive is I think it's becoming more and more important. And incentive could vary because if I have to incentivize someone from Italy is different than incentivize someone in China or in Egypt or where we have our

你们在中国确实设有办事处。

You do have offices in China.

是的，没错。或者在美国，这样的经历很棒，因为金钱对每个人来说或多或少都是共通的，但正如我们今天所见，金钱并非一切。你需要带着热情去工作，因为到那时，不是我说的，如果你对所做的事充满热情，你就永远不会逃避工作。那感觉总像在度假一样。所以

Yes, yes. Or in The US and it's a nice experience to do that because of course money is more or less common to everybody but as we see here today, money is not everything. You need to go to work with enthusiasm because at that point, it's not me saying that, that you never go to work if you are enthusiastic enthusiastic on what you are doing. It's always like a kind of a vacation. So

你的意思是需要建立一种激励机制，这种机制需要根据当地情况来解读和理解

what you're saying is that you need to create incentives that are kind of to be interpreted and read through the local

文化。

culture.

比如你们在博洛尼亚和中国的办事处在这方面有何不同？你们采取了哪些不同的激励措施

How is that different for example from the office you have in Bologna and the one in China? What different incentives are you

嗯，中国人基于他们的文化和宗教信仰，需要尽可能多地工作。因为对他们来说，通过工作才能达到宗教意义上的天堂，也就是我们所说的极乐世界。所以他们渴望并立志要出人头地，因为他们从小就习惯了与数百万人共同生活。他们深知，只有从这人海中脱颖而出，才能成就成功人生。因此他们工作非常努力。

Well, Chinese people that they have for their culture, their religion, they need to work the much that they can. Because for them reaching for their religion, reaching what we call paradise is through works. So they want to and they have an ambition to become someone, to become because they are used for every step of their lives to be together with millions of people. And they know that only with emerging from this huge sea of people, it will create them someone with a successful life. So they work really very hard.

当然，有时候这还不够，但我们有少数人——可能马泰奥更清楚具体情况——那里有少数人致力于创新，他们与普通员工截然不同，也与这里的创新者大相径庭。

Sometimes, of course, it's not enough because but we have a few people, I don't know, Matteo maybe it's more precise, a few people there thinking of innovation and they are very different from them and very different from the people that innovate here.

因此工艺流程需要定制化。完全正确。我想与您探讨的最后一个问题是关于前瞻性思考，您如何看待瓶装和包装行业的未来前景？具体而言，您认为哪些一两项革命性技术能在中期内真正从内到外改变这个行业？

So the processes are to be customized. Absolutely. The last question that I would like to address with you is thinking, you know, looking ahead, right? How do you see a potential future of bottling and packaging in general? So what do you think it can be some one or two revolutionary potential technologies that can really change the industry from the inside and out, looking at the medium term?

在我看来，行业趋势正朝着极简产品方向发展，有时甚至是单一材料产品，因为它们易于回收，即使被填埋处理也很环保。我相信那些复杂结构的产品将逐渐退出市场。

Well, I think that in my opinion, the trend is going towards very simple products, sometimes mono material products, because they are easy to recycle, easy if they are wasted in the landfill. And I believe that those complicated products will more or less disappear.

您不认同'零包装'的理念吗？最好的包装就是根本不用包装，对吧？

Don't you believe in a world where there's actually no packaging? The best packaging is no packaging at all, right?

确实，但有时候这种理念虽好却难以实现。您...

Yeah, but sometimes it's difficult to it's good to say, but it's difficult to imagine. You

您也觉得短期内无法实现对吧？毕竟当前主流是可食用包装项目，是吗？

don't see that it's coming any time soon, right? No, because the project is edible packaging, right?

可食用包装是不错。但您记得吗，无包装世界曾经存在过，但那时疾病传播率要高得多。我认为关键不在于新型包装，而在于智能包装。

Yes, edible packaging is fine. But if you remember, a world without packaging existed already, but then the spread of disease and things is much higher. I think not new packaging, but intelligent packaging.

我们之前讨论过的回收与可持续性这一重大课题，实际上在美国也引发长期讨论——比如在您提到的杯子案例中，如何将金属部分与塑料部分分离。

So one of the majors that we talked about before recycling and sustainability, believe, I mean, is actually a long discussion also in The US how to separate, for example, in your case, in cups, right, the metal side from the plastic side.

这可能是媒体面临的挑战，我们

This is probably media challenge, we

不必等待

don't have to wait for

他知道我一直在思考并强调，我们必须实现让这种内衬材料不再是塑料，可能是纸质的，或者我们不得不回归软木塞，又或者找到一种简便方法在容器中将它们分离。非常

He knows how much I'm thinking and saying we have to reach the point where this liner is no more plastic, it's maybe paper or if we have to go back to cork Or finding an easy way to separate them in a receptacle. Very

非常复杂。最后一个问题，如果要你推荐一个初创企业或年轻创业者，在你所在领域中你认为真正关键的某个领域，你最希望看到什么样的初创企业？具体会是哪一类？嗯，我看到很多。

Very complicated. Last question, if you were to suggest a startup or younger entrepreneurs that you will love to see, right in your world in some area that for you is really key. What startups would that be? What subset of? Well, see many.

是的，但就你目前而言，真正让你觉得是首要任务的那个领域，如果有真正合适的解决方案出现，你会立刻拿起电话联系那位CEO吗？我想说的是，

Yeah, but the area that you today you really feel that it would be for you priority one that if really the right solution comes to you, we'll pick up the phone and call the CEO? I would say that,

嗯，这两个项目都非常令人兴奋。

well, both of these two projects are very exciting.

没错，所以观众们还没见过的两个项目，一个是可食用包装，另一个是磁性的。

Yes, so two projects that you for the audience haven't seen, one is edible packaging, the other one is magnetic.

磁性材料可以避免使用清漆这类东西。这些方案相当不错，我之前从未考虑过这两种方案，因为我喜欢思考新的解决方案，但不得不说这两种方案即将大放异彩

Magnetic thing to avoid varnishes and things like that. So those are quite good and I've never thought about these two because I like to think to new solution but I have to say that these two These great are coming

源自你们内部的企业家们

from your entrepreneurs from within.

是的，没错

Yes, yes.

这意味着你们的文化

That means that the culture that you

完全正确。我们正在全力推进，对此感到非常非常高兴。所以初创企业们

are Absolutely. Pushing And we are very, very happy. I'm very happy about that. So startups out

如果你们在这两个领域有解决方案，请发邮件联系我们。好的

there that have a solution in those two fields, please send an email. Okay.

还有你提到的那个方案——尝试避免塑料瓶盖、避免清漆，尽量规避所有化学物质，那些在某种程度上会造成污染的有害物质。甚至包括我们包装的包装材料。所有

And well the one that you told trying to avoid the plastic the caps, to avoid the varnishes, try to avoid more or less everything that is chemical that in a way is polluting doing bad things. Is even the packaging of our packaging. All

是的，马克，非常愉快。

right, Mark, it's been a pleasure.

谢谢你的感谢

Thanks for Thank your

也祝你一切顺利。

you. And all the best for your time.

感谢您今天与我们共度时光，我们下期《开放创新对话·行业领袖访谈》再见。

Thank you for being with us today, and see you in the next episode of Open Innovation Talks Mind the Chat with Industry Leaders.