第16集 - 法国科技的非凡转型：从巴黎到伦敦再回归

要知道，如果你想真正创建一家初创公司，只需做一件事。一件非常简单的事，就是买张欧洲之星的票去伦敦。这就是七年前你在法国创业生态圈里常听到的话。从法国人的角度看，这可不是什么好消息。显然，从拿破仑的角度看，这显然也不是什么好消息。

You know, if you want to actually create a startup, you have to do one single thing. One simple, very simple thing, just grab a ticket for the Eurostar and go to London. That was what you guys could hear in the French ecosystem only seven years ago. And from from French perspective, it was not a good news. And and, obviously, from a a Napoleon perspective, that was clearly not good news.

而今天，我听到的恰恰相反。我认为这种历史的反转非常有趣——伦敦曾被视为进入欧洲科技生态圈的门户。自2016年以来，虽然这种情况仍部分存在，但格局已彻底改变。你会看到大量投资正涌入巴黎，将其视为通往欧洲大陆的门户。我认为关键点在于：当你身处巴黎时，别再把它仅仅看作法国的首都。

And today, I hear quite the opposite. So I think that's quite fascinating to see this, like, revenge on history, where London used to be the gateway, into, the European tech ecosystem. And since 2016, obviously, this is still a little bit the case, but clearly this is totally shifting. And you you just see the amounts of investment that are pulled into, Paris as a gateway to Continental Europe. And I think that's the very important point is that you're in Paris, don't think of Paris, stop thinking of Paris as the capital of France.

它正日益转变为欧洲疫苗之都。

This is turning increasingly into the capital of the European vaccine.

深度访谈科技领域最具影响力的创新领袖，独家解读全球主要及新兴生态圈数据与洞见，追踪全球最前沿的科技与开放式创新动态——以上内容及更多精彩尽在每期节目中。欢迎收听《开放式创新对话》，与行业领袖共话桥梁之道。

In-depth interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena, exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world, the hottest news on technology and open innovation at global level. This and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks. Mind the bridge chat with industry leaders.

所以我想今天应该先聊聊法国生态圈的演变。我们之前讨论了一些数据点，主要是从我们作为外部观察者的视角——作为一个长期追踪全球不同生态圈在规模化企业数量和融资规模方面发展的机构。或许可以先听听您的见解：作为法国创新与初创企业生态圈的主要推动者之一，您如何看待过去几年法国在全球创新版图中的发展？

So I think the idea is to cover a little bit of the evolution of the French ecosystem today. We were discussing some data points, really from our perspective as an outsider, as an entity that has been tracking different ecosystems around the world in terms of a number of scale ups and amount of an amount of funding also that is being raised. Maybe I think to start, it would be great to have your input of how you've seen the ecosystem of France in the world of innovation and startups progressing over the few years, because you've been one of the main actors for that.

但当我最初进入法国初创企业生态圈时（那并不久远，就在七年前），我听到的第一句话就是：要知道，如果你想真正创建一家初创公司，只需做一件事。一件非常简单的事，就是买张欧洲之星的票去伦敦。这就是七年前你在法国创业生态圈里常听到的话。从法国人的角度看，这

But when I first got into the French, startup ecosystem, which was not so long ago, only seven years ago, the first thing I could hear was, you know, if you want to actually create a startup, you have to do one single thing. One simple, very simple thing, just grab a ticket for the Eurostar and go to London. That was what you guys could hear in the French ecosystem only seven years ago. And from from French perspective, it

可不是什么好消息。

was not a good news.

显然，从拿破仑的视角来看，那绝非好消息。而如今，我听到的却是截然相反的情况。我看到一些英国人跨越海峡，入驻欧洲最大孵化器Eura Technologies接受孵化，同时也进驻Statione和我朋友们所在机构，甚至在法国本土一些优秀场所扎根。这种历史性的逆转令人着迷——伦敦曾被视为进入欧洲科技生态系统的门户，虽然2016年后仍部分保持这一地位，但局势已明显转变。你会看到大量投资正涌入巴黎，将其作为通往欧洲大陆的门户。

And and, obviously, from a a Napoleon perspective, that was clearly not good news. And today, I hear quite the opposite. I see some of the English folks actually crossing the channel and getting incubated, obviously, at Eura Technologies, which is the largest incubator in Europe, but also at my friends at Statione, and and in some great places here in in the French persistent. So I think that's quite fascinating to see this, like, revenge on history, where London used to be the gateway, into, the European tech ecosystem. And since 2016, obviously, this is still a little bit the case, but clearly this is totally shifting and you just see the amounts of investment that are pulled into Paris as a gateway to Continental Europe.

我认为关键点在于——你此刻身处巴黎。

And I think that's the the very important point is that you're in Paris.

别再只把巴黎视为法国首都。它正日益成为欧洲科技圈的中心，这实在令人惊叹。另外...（停顿）没错，过去确实存在从欧洲大陆向英国的人才流动，但那只是中转站，因为最终目的地是美国。

Don't think of Paris. Stop thinking of Paris as the capital of France. This is turning increasingly into the capital of the European tech scene, and that's that's absolutely fascinating. Also also because if my head yes. There was this movement from Continental Europe to UK, but that was of intermediate step because the next stop was US.

同样地，当时没人真正感到欢欣。现在问题的核心在于：我们如何让欧洲不仅成为起飞的平台，更要成为着陆的平台。法国很可能正在实现从初创阶段到规模扩张阶段的转型，成为这一进程的试验田。马克龙总统推出的TB计划，或许是全球政界首次将规模扩张型企业置于政策核心...

And so again, also, nobody was really, really smiling. Now the point is how we can bring and make Europe not just a sort of starting, taking off platform, but also landing platform. And I think that's something that is happening, and France is probably one of the laboratory of moving from the startup phase to the scale up phase. I think the TB initiative has been launched by president Macron as one of the the first time probably also the world of politics decided to put the scale up at the center of

...而不仅是初创企业。确实如此。坦白说我们仍在追赶阶段，法国生态系统吸引的独角兽数量和风投资金还无法与伦敦比肩。

the scene, not just the start up. No. It's it's totally true. I mean, we we are still in a catch up. I cannot say that clearly the the amounts of unicorns on the amounts of VC money that are pulled into the French ecosystem are totally matching the numbers in London.

但我们已经超越德国——这在五年前是不可想象的。要知道初创企业与数字中小企业的本质区别就在于风投资金流向。资本曾通过伦敦进入欧洲大陆...

But clearly, I mean, we we are outranking Germany, so which clearly was not the case only five years ago. So it's I think it's very important and you know how it is. What's the difference between a startup and a digital SME? VC is the VC money. So you have to follow the money and the money used to come into Continental Europe through London.

如今这些资金正越来越多地通过巴黎进入欧洲大陆，柏林和阿姆斯特丹也分得一杯羹。希望你们那边能有所收获，因为这种趋势非常有趣。看看软银几周前在法国生态系统的大手笔收购就明白了——资本正源源不断通过巴黎注入欧洲大陆。

Now it's getting increasingly into Continental Europe through Paris, also a little bit Berlin and and Amsterdam. Let's I hope you guys will be having some of it there because it's really really interesting. But obviously, follow the money, and the money is flowing increasingly into Continental Europe through Paris. You you've seen that with the deals of that were made by a SoftBank only a few a few weeks ago. They went on a shopping spree here in the in the French ecosystem.

显然，这种情况在四五年前是不可能出现的。他们本应经过伦敦，而不是直接进入巴黎。回到你的问题，正如你所知我是法国人，有时我们的意大利邻居在这方面也很擅长，但我们往往过于详细阐述，所以我会直截了当地回答。是的，这显然涉及政治。马克龙总统有强烈的政治意愿表示：虽然我们法国人可能是工业国家，但未来仍属于数字化——这很有趣，因为显然你看德国政府，他们完全没有采取这种行动。

Clearly, wouldn't have been the case only four to five years ago. Would have come through London, they wouldn't have come straight into Paris. So coming back to your question because you know I'm a Frenchman so sometimes our Italian neighbors are quite good at this too but we tend to elaborate a little bit too much so I'm gonna be straight to your question. Yeah, there is politics obviously. There is a strong political will by President Macron to say, hey, we might be as Frenchmen an industrial nation of industries, but still the future is digital and that's funny because clearly you look at the German governments, they they haven't done this move at all.

即使在今天的领英上，我也能看到一些德国创始人——我不会点名以免给他们带来麻烦——但我们当时在说：看看柏林创投圈的辉煌数据，想象如果我们有个像法国这样的政府会怎样。这大概是我人生中唯一一次听到德国人说：看法国多棒！

And I could see on LinkedIn even today, some German founders and I'm not gonna name them because I don't want them to put into trouble, but we were saying, hey. Look at the brilliant numbers in the on the Berlin scene. Just imagine how it would be if we had a government like Right. There we go. And I think that's the only the the only time in my in my life when I actually hear a German say, hey, look at France, it's fantastic!

在足球领域这种情况肯定会出现。值得注意的是，我认为今天我们正在见证各地区之间的一场明确竞赛。虽然现在讨论的是欧洲，但可以扩展到全球范围——各区域都在努力将自身定位为特定产业子集的全球顶尖，或在初创企业或创新领域的全球领先。这是我们通过数据追踪到的趋势，而疫情可能加速了这一进程：世界更加开放，数字游民成为焦点，因此吸引人才的竞争已日益成为保持经济相关性的必要手段。

It definitely would have happened in football for sure. That note, I think today, one of the things that we'll be seeing is that there is definitely a race of all the different regions. We're talking now about Europe, but we can make it much wider around the world of trying to position the throughput of a region, a specific region, as the top in a subset of industries, but a top in the world of startups or in the world of innovation. And again, that's something that we've been tracking through data, and it's something that's probably also accelerated through the pandemic, the fact that the world is much more open. The digital nomads are becoming front and center, so this race of attracting talent has become more and more of a pure necessity if you want to be relevant even economically speaking.

我的问题是：政府自上而下制定的长期政策有多重要？为了让讨论更具体，你认为法国有哪些关键里程碑是值得其他国家政府效仿的？

My question there is, how important are government policies that comes from top to draw a trajectory that is not going to change in one year. Maybe just to make it very practical, what have been, to your view, the major step stones that happened in France that that you would suggest other governments to follow?

这个国家在生产金属材料方面一直很出色。我们在数学、物理、化学等领域有着悠久的卓越传统，所以看到这么多优秀的AI和数据科学家讲法语并不奇怪。我们数学方面有深厚底蕴，这不足为奇。实际上几年前我担任Fores Digital CEO时就这么做过。

I mean, this country has always been a good when it comes to actually producing fields metals. We've always had a tradition of excellence in mathematics, in physics, in chemistry, and so on and so forth. So I'm not surprised to see so many strong AI and data scientist people speaking French. We have a tradition of excellence in mathematics, so it's it's no surprise. And it's actually we we did that a few years ago when I when I was still CEO of Fores Digital.

我们曾对硅谷科技巨头AI中心的负责人进行过背景调查，特别是他们的国籍。结果令人着迷：法国国旗几乎随处可见，印度国旗也同样普遍。

We we conducted a mapping of who are the directors of the AI centers of Big Tech in Silicon Valley. And especially where are they from? And it was fascinating. You could see the French flags pretty much everywhere. Indian flags also pretty much everywhere.

令人惊叹的是法国这样的小国（仅6000万人口）却在硅谷AI中心占据如此高的比例。我认为这种优势在未来几年不会改变。现任政府通过强有力的AI战略投入了大量资源，在研究和培训领域都有重大投资。

And it was fascinating to see such a tiny country because France is a tiny country, 60,000,000 inhabitants, to be so overrepresented in AI centers in the Silicon Valley. So I I think that's that's clearly something that is not going to change over the next years. The the current government has invested a lot with a very strong AI strategy. Have invested a lot in research. A lot in training.

所以AI领域的这一卓越传统无疑将会延续下去。

So this strong tradition of excellence in AI is gonna stay for sure.

嗯。我认为其中一个关键要素是长期的教育投入。真正要建设的是能代表国家水平的卓越中心。生态系统的其他方面呢？我们讨论过配套资金，也谈过资本的力量。

Mhmm. So that's one element that is part of, I think, one of the key one is mostly for the long term that is education. So really building centers of excellence that a country can be representative of. How about the rest of the ecosystem? We talked about matching funds, we talked about the power of capital.

不久前我们在韩国举办过类似峰会。韩国以两点闻名：一是近几届政府都将独角兽企业数量作为政府政策（非科技政策）的KPI指标；二是为实现该KPI的配套投资规模非常可观。作为硅谷从业者，我们看到韩国项目的参与度远超其他地区。

One of the activities that we have run not too long ago was a similar summit but in South Korea. South Korea is very well known for two things. One, the government in the last few generations have put the number of unicorns as one of the KPI of government policies for government, not tech. And number two is to go to follow that KPI, the investments that follow that objective is significant. So for us, being in Silicon Valley, we see South Korean programs being overrepresented compared to any other geographies.

那么对于其他地区，您会建议政府采取哪些措施？假设您拥有绝对话语权和完全自由来制定政策，要如何帮助特定地区达到那样的成功水平？

What what kind of government what what would be your suggestions to other regions, right, if you were if you had a point blank and and full freedom to define policies that can be successful for a specific region to get to that that level of success.

我身兼数职，包括担任欧洲初创企业网络主席。因此能全面观察欧洲哪些措施有效，哪些效果欠佳。最让我震撼的是首先要追踪资金流向，特别是种子前投资。虽然A轮B轮有大量风投资本，美国基金也全面进驻，但全球范围内目前并不存在资本获取障碍。

I have many hats, including being chairman of the European Startup Network. So I can I can see across Europe what is working, what is, I would say, less working? And what I find fascinating is that first is follow the money and fully follow the pre seed money. We have massive amounts of VC money in series a, series b, gross capital, you have all the American funds. So I I wouldn't say that there is a problem in terms of access to capital on the on the global scale at the moment.

我们确实存在断层——这正是政府政策需要重点关注的种子前融资环节。以法国为例，六年前A轮融资平均金额50万欧元，到2021年已飙升至1100万欧元。

We do have a loophole and and that's why government policies need to focus very much on this, is pre seed money. Just look at the the average series a. In France, six years ago, it used to be half a million euros. Average series a, half a million euro. As of 2021, the average series a is €11,000,000.

五年间暴涨20倍。显然种子前融资变得更难获取，因为我们缺乏强大的商业基础网络。观察欧洲成功生态，尤其是英吉利海峡对岸的英国，他们有小企业投资计划。嗯。

Boom. X 20 in in in five years. So clearly, the the pre seed money is harder to get because we don't have this very strong, network of of business essentials. And if you look at the very successful ecosystems in Europe, especially across the channel in The UK, they have this small enterprise investment scheme. Mhmm.

能解释一下这是什么意思吗？

Wanna share what that means?

简单来说，他们正在提供税收减免。是的，对Business Central实施大规模税收减免。你知道英国人虽然不愿承认，但他们确实在大量补贴。是的，这笔资金运作得非常成功。如果说有一项政策值得关注，那就是这个资金运作机制。

Basically, they they they they're offering tax rebates Yes. Massive tax rebates to Business Central. You know, the Brits hate to say that, but they are heavily subsidizing Yes. The the proceeds funding, and it's working extremely well. So if there is one policy that that definitely people should look at is this this proceed money thing.

我不想再回到关于教育和培训的辩论，因为显然这才是关键。只要拥有优秀的工程师、优秀的人才、优秀的技术人员，资金自然会随之而来。创业精神也会随之涌现。但这需要时间。

And I don't want to come back to our debate on education and training because clearly, this is the key. If you have the good engineer, the good people, the good tech people Money will follow. Will follow. Entrepreneurship will follow. But it takes some time.

多年来，法国一直是工程师的摇篮。但直到最近，我们才真正开始把这些工程师培养成企业家。尽管在英语中，'entrepreneur'这个词本身就来自法语。

For many years, France has been a great nation of engineers. It has been quite recent to turn these engineers into entrepreneurs Yeah. Even though in English, entrepreneur is a French word.

没错。回顾过去，您长期致力于法国事务。如果要您列举两三个标志性时刻，您会说哪些事件真正推动法国迈上新台阶？

That's correct. And looking back again, you've been acting into the French since since a while. And if I have to ask you, what are the two, three moments looking backwards when you you say, okay, we are really moving to the next level. What that could be for France? What it could be?

过去一年里的三个关键时刻。首先是BP的创立，

The the the three moments over the past year. So first was the creation of the BP,

国家投资银行的建立，相当于德国的KFW，这极其重要。因为多年来我们一直缺乏风险投资资金，所以不得不从零开始创建这个体系，不得不进行补贴。是的，需要政府干预。英国人也在通过补贴增加资金投入。

National Bank for Investment, the equivalent of KFW in Germany, which was extremely important because we couldn't find VC money for many years. And so we had to invent it, from scratch and we had to Subsidized. Yeah. Have public intervention. The Brits are subsidizing increasing money.

我们不得不为这次发布提供补贴。是的。所以那显然是一个关键时刻。我想那是在2011年和2012年。提及这些日期非常重要，因为当时有一位叫尼古拉·阿尔科西的总统，之后还有一位叫弗朗索瓦·龙的总统。

We had to subsidize the release. Yes. So that's, that's clearly a key moment. That's I guess that's the the 2011 and the 2012. And that's very important to mention these dates because there was a president called Nicolas Arcosi, and then there was another president called Francois Long.

而且一直存在着连续性，极强的连续性，全国对这一工具——贝贝的实用性达成了高度共识。

And there has been a continuity, a great continuity, a great national consensus around the the the the very usefulness of this of this instrument, Bebe.

贝贝仍在发挥作用，并保持着其关键角色。

And Bebe is still acting and still has his key role.

是的。而且仍然是同一个人在推动。因此具有极强的连续性，他们做得非常出色。显然，贝皮的创建是第二个重要节点，维拉尼战略——我们称之为维拉尼战略——由塞德里克·维拉尼制定，他是一位非常著名的菲尔兹奖得主，数学界的超级巨星。

Yeah. And it's still the same man sharing it. So there is a a great great deal of continuity and they're under doing a great, great job. So clearly, the creation of Bepi. Second date, the the Villani strategy, what we call the Villani strategy with Cedric Villani is a very famous field medal, award winner, superstar mathematician.

他就像是数学界的Lady Gaga。当总统请他设计国家人工智能战略时，他提出了非常扎实的方案。我们的国家人工智能战略可能是最优秀的之一，这确实非常了不起。最后抱歉...

He's like Lady Gaga of mathematics. When the the president asked him to design a national AI strategy, and he came up with something very solid. So we we are probably one of the of the greatest national AI strategies. So it's, it was it was really fantastic. And the last Sorry.

这个关键战略的核心是什么？

What is the the key strategy that was so

本质上，他们一直在搭建研究与创业之间的桥梁。对于深科技领域而言，打破研究与创业之间的壁垒至关重要。没错。当你审视各国人工智能战略时，会发现有些过于侧重创业，有些则过于侧重基础研究。

Basically, they they they have been bridging, research, and entrepreneurship. And and and when it comes to deep tech, it's so important to bridge research and entrepreneurship and To break the silos. Exactly. And when you look at the the national AI strategies, they have, you know, focused so much on entrepreneurship. Some of them have focused so much on the fundamental research.

战略中存在着一种非常有趣的平衡。最近一天，我们这家大公司举办活动时，有开放式创新团队在旁聆听。因此必须强调，开云集团就是古驰的母公司。没错。

There has been a very interesting balance in the in the strategy. And the last day, which was quite recent, we had this very large corporate and we have some open innovation guys listening. So it's it's it's very important to mention that. Kering is, you know, is Gucci. Yes.

这些都是顶级奢侈品牌。你根本不会期待这种公司在创新和初创企业方面有任何动作。但他们却豪掷1.85亿欧元，不是收购初创公司，而是入股了一家名为Vetia Collective的初创企业——这家公司突然就成为了独角兽。在我看来这极其有趣，因为法国大企业终于觉醒，愿意砸重金收购，与初创企业达成战略合作。这绝非儿戏，尤其你们身处硅谷应该更清楚。

It's all these very luxurious brands. That's clearly not the company that you're expecting to do anything on innovation and startup. They put 185,000,000 on the table to acquire, not a start up, to acquire a stake in a start up called Vetia Collective, which became a unicorn all of a sudden. And to me, that's extremely interesting because finally, we have large French corporates waking up and putting strong money on the table to acquire, to have these very strategic deals with startups. And and that's clearly not a joke because if you look and you guys are in Silicon Valley.

看看美国企业，他们对初创企业的投资和收购金额是欧洲同行的六倍。显然，能否引领潮流？我们将发出强烈信号。

You look at the American corporates, they invest six times more Yeah. In startups And acquire. That they and and they do acquire compared to to Europe their European counterparts. So clearly, can you show the way? I think we will show send a very strong signal.

所以下次你们邀请他们时

Yeah. So next time there, you guys are inviting them

毫无疑问。我们完全赞同。因为我们也曾习惯性拒绝行动或参与。我记得另一个关键时刻，至少对我这个外国人而言，可能是我们初次相遇——当时奥朗德总统将法国科技社区引入爱丽舍宫，这彰显了生态系统的重要性。这是其他国家尚未做到或多年后才跟进的举措。

for the Definitely. We agree. Because also we are used to say no action or party. I remember also another moment, at least for me as a foreign and probably one of the first time we met has been at the when Hollande bringing the the Stata community was the French tech inside their building, goes to show the importance of the ecosystem. That is something that other countries have not done or they have done years later.

那对我而言是醍醐灌顶的时刻，法国确实在认真推进改革——奥朗德总统用声誉作担保。现状正在被打破，这很关键。

That's for me was a sort of eye opening event that France were really moving seriously also in terms of they put in the reputation from Holland. There is a on the status quo season. This is important.

这点特别引人注目。我之所以将其视为重要节点，是因为多年来我们一直受邀进出爱丽舍宫。政府与科技创新体系之间能建立如此紧密的联系实在难得。不过我们仍需解决公共采购问题——你们都知道这在美国有多重要。

This is something that caught my eye. That's why I'm not mentioning it as a significant date because we have been welcome at the Elysee Palace for like so many years now. It's quite fantastic to to have this very strong link between between the government and the and the tech innovation system. However, we do have something that we need to fix is public procurement. You know how it's so important in The US.

你知道在韩国、以色列、法国、德国乃至整个欧洲大陆，这有多么重要。但现状依然糟糕。公共采购领域。所以如果你需要邀请其他开放创新人士，下次就把这些创新者、部长们和行政官员都请来，直到他们与员工签下合同为止。

You know how it's so important in South Korea and Israel, in France, and in Germany, and basically on the European continent. Still broken. Public procurement. So if you need to invite some other open innovation guys, next time you invite the open innovation guys and the ministers, the administrations, and you whip them until they they sign a contract with the staff.

可能需要一些时间。

It might take a while.

费尔伯托，我们还有时间问最后一个问题。你想问谁...好吧，我有个关于未来的思考：作为法国生态系统的积极参与者，你认为最理想的发展前景是什么？或者说你对此有何期待？

Filberto, we have time for one more question. Do you want who to was the well, I have one maybe that is thinking about the future. What do you think is the best that can happen to an ecosystem like France? Or maybe what is your hope that can happen being one of the major activists in that in that space? Let's

别再讨论估值了。让我们开始谈谈目标吧。我欣赏人们创建大型独角兽企业，但目的是什么？我认为欧洲大陆的科技发展路径与美国和中国截然不同——你可以看看那些以社会价值为出发点的科技初创企业，大多数科技向善的独角兽其实都在欧洲。

stop talking about valuation. Let's talk let's start talking about purpose. Like, I mean, I I love when people are creating great scale ups and great unicorns and so on and so forth, but what for? And I do believe that we have a very specific way of doing tech on the European continent for compared to the Americans and the Chinese, and and you you should just look at the the tech for good starter, tech for good scale ups. You find that most of the tech for good unicorns, they're actually on the European continent.

这并不令人意外，因为作为欧洲人，我们会思考中美根本不在意的问题。比如法国最强的独角兽之一Back Market，它是二手iPhone翻新平台。在美国谁还会翻新iPhone？直接买新的就行了。

And I don't think that's, you know, surprise because as Europeans, we are going to ask ourselves some questions that Chinese and American don't even care about. For instance, if I look at one of the strongest French unicorn, it's called back market. It's a platform for refurbished iPhones and so on and so forth. In The US, who is going to refurbish an iPhone? You buy a new one.

这就是区别。在欧洲我们关注环境，因此我们会孕育出——应该说正在孕育——具有使命感的独角兽，我认为这才是...

That's it. In Europe, we care about the environment, and so we are going to produce, I would say, unicorns are proposed, and I think that's the the

正确的方向。没错。突然想到拉脱维亚的案例。确实如此。这或许正是我们欧洲人为创业蛋糕添加的特殊配料，前提是我们能让这块蛋糕做得更大更重要。

right way to do so. Yeah. It looks pops of my mind winted from Latvia. Exactly. Again, yes, that might be probably one of the ingredients that we Europeans can put in the start up cake, assuming they were able to make this cake a bit more larger and more relevant.

那么我最后的问题是放眼整个欧洲，不仅仅是法国，假设欧洲生态系统确实存在，那么欧洲应该采取什么行动来推动其发展？欧盟委员会已提出7500亿欧元的复苏计划。嗯。

So last last question from me is looking at Europe, broader Europe, not just France, what should be the potential European move for making the European ecosystem working as well, assuming that it might exist? The European Commission, they put €750,000,000,000 on the table as a recovery plan. Mhmm.

其中明确划拨20%用于数字化转型，也就是1500亿欧元。我的问题是最终会有多少资金流入初创企业的口袋？我非常担心这些钱最终会落入那些擅长应对各种招标和个人关系的公司手中。一个非常关键的问题是，我们能否确保这1500亿欧元中至少有一半能进入欧洲初创企业的金库？

And you have basically 20% out of it that is clearly earmarked for the digital transformation. So that's 150,000,000,000 on the table. My question is how much is going to end up in the pockets of startups? And I'm very afraid that this money is going to end up in the pockets of basically companies that are able to answer all these you know, calls and personal shenanigans. One very very you know key thing is can we get at least half of this 150,000,000,000 to end up in the coffers of our European startups?

如果我们能做到这一点，我们将极大地推动法国、德国、意大利和爱沙尼亚的初创企业生态系统发展，因为这不仅仅是融资问题。我也欣赏那些注重营收的人。如果能通过政府采购获得收入，那将非常有帮助。

If we can do that, we're going to kick start the French, the German, the Italian, the Estonian startup ecosystem so hard because, you know, it's not about fundraising. I like people who wanna make revenues too. And if we can get revenues from public procurement, that would be extremely helpful.

是的，根据我们最新的统计数据，通常一个生态系统中的投资资本大约需要三到五年才能转化为收入。也就是说，你投入初创企业的每一美元或欧元在三到五年内都能产生1欧元的收入，这意味着所有资金都会回流。是的。

Yes. So so because of looking at some our latest statistics, typically, for an ecosystem, the amount of capital invested turn into revenue approximately in three to five years. So again, you anything any dollar or any euro that you put into into a start up in three to five years was able to produce €1 of revenue that is all money will come back. Yeah.

所以我们应该专注于销售产品，而不仅仅是融资。这才是关键。美国人、韩国人和以色列人在这方面完全没有问题。看看他们投入本国初创企业创新性盈利采购的资金吧，这甚至已经不再是自由市场了。

So let's let's sell products let's sell products instead of just fundraising. I think that's the that's the key. And the the Americans and the South Koreans and Israelis, they have absolutely no problem with that. I mean, look at the money they're putting in innovative profit procurements in their own startups. It's it's actually, not even a free market anymore.

不。

No.

但有时我们就是会以某种恶意的方式把生活复杂化，所以

But sometimes we are able to complicate our lives in a malicious way, so

真遗憾。不过完美。

That's a shame. Perfect.

我想我们时间到了，但我觉得这是结束下午活动的完美方式。感谢你们的见解，我们期待见证法国生态系统接下来的发展。再次感谢，谢谢大家。下次见。

I think we're out of time, but I think that was a perfect way to finish the afternoon. So thanks for your insights, and we look forward to witnessing what is next for the French ecosystem. Thanks again, and thanks everybody. See you next time.

感谢大家今天的参与，我们下期《开放创新对话：关注行业领袖》节目再见。

Thank you for being with us today, and see you in the next episode of Open Innovation Talks Mind the Chat with Industry Leaders.