第2集 - 弗朗切斯科·斯塔拉切 / 前Enel首席执行官 - 执掌Enel 23年后的生活

深度访谈科技领域最具影响力的创新高管，独家呈现全球主要及新兴生态系统的数据与洞见，追踪全球技术与开放创新的热点动态，每期节目为您带来更多精彩内容。欢迎收听《开放创新对话》。Mind the Bridge，与行业领袖对话。

In-depth interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena. Exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world, the hottest news on technology and open innovation at a global level, this and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks. Mind the Bridge, chat with industry leaders.

大家早上好。我是Marco Marinucci，Mind the Bridge的创始人兼CEO。欢迎收听《开放创新对话》第二期，这是Mind the Bridge与创新领域行业领袖的对话节目。今天我的嘉宾是Francesco Starrache，他直到最近还是Enel集团的CEO，自2014年起就担任这一职务。实际上，他是推动Enel成为全球主要可再生能源生产商的关键人物。

Good morning, everybody. This is Marco Marinucci, the founder and CEO at MindiBridge. Welcome to the second episode of the Open Innovation Talks, the MindiBridge chat with the industry leader in innovation. Today my guest is Francesco Starrache, up until recently CEO of the Enel Group, where he was the CEO for, you know, since 2014. It was actually the main driver of turning Enel into the major producer of renewable energy in the world.

这将是一场非常有趣的对话。期待已久。大家早上好。今天我们非常荣幸地邀请到Mind the Bridge的老朋友，也是本播客的常客Francesco Starrache。欢迎你。

So very interesting conversation. Looking forward to it. Good morning everybody. Today we have a great pleasure to have an old friend of Mindabridge, an old friend of this pod, wear him on multiple times. Welcome to Francesco Starrach.

你好，Marco，大家好。很高兴再次来到这里。

Hello, Marco, and hello, everybody. It's a pleasure to be back.

是啊，能再次相聚真好。我刚才翻看了2012年你担任Enel CEO时的访谈，还有2015年的那次。上次见面还是在疫情期间，我们当时都居家隔离，讨论2020年疫情期间的种种可能性。现在能在这个对你个人和职业生涯都非常重要的时刻重逢真是太好了。如果我没记错的话，上周是你离开NL前的最后一周，你在那里工作了二十多年，确切地说是二十三年对吗？

Yeah, it is to be back because I was checking here the interview in 2012 when you were the CEO of Enel Powered and again 2015. And then the last time was right in the middle of a pandemic where we were really sheltering in place and talking about what if and what could we do in 2020 during just in the middle of a pandemic. That's great to have you back, I think, in a very important moment, I think, in your personal and professional career. Last week was your last week at NL after, if I'm counting correctly, twenty plus years, twenty three years. Is that correct?

是的，

Yeah,

二十三年。

twenty three years.

哇，这计算起来很简单，因为你是从2000年开始的，对吧？二十三年。顺便说一句，就像现在所有人一样，我也是从AI那里得到这些计算的。所以如果这里有什么错误，可不是我的责任。

Wow, that's an easy math because you started there in 2000, right? Twenty three years. I'm getting some of this math, by the way, as everybody is today, from the AI. So if you get some mistakes here, it's not my fault.

是在2000年底。

It's at the end of 2000.

我一直在用。上周五他们发布了新版后，你测试过谷歌的AI debart吗？其实还挺让人兴奋的。我问了一堆关于你的问题，我想大部分应该都是正确的。你是1981年开始工作的，所以是四十二年。

I've been using it. Have you tested Google's AI debart after they launched it in a new edition on Friday? It was actually pretty exciting. So I was asking a bunch of questions about you, so I assume most of them were correct. So you started working in 1981, so forty two years.

这意味着你职业生涯超过一半时间都在Enel度过，对吗？

That means that you spent more than half of your career at Enel, is that right?

差不多吧，是的。我工作生涯的一半时间都在Enel。

More or less, yes. Half of my working life was with Enel.

所以有两个重要阶段，2008年升任Enel Green Power的CEO，然后从2014年起担任整个集团的CEO。正式来说，我想大约五月份是你作为CEO的最后一天，我们其实在想象，Enel的CEO最后一天是怎样的？你是怎么结束在那里的工作的？我不指望你会像电视里演的那样抱着装笔记本电脑的箱子离开。

So two big steps there, 2008, promoted CEO of Enel Green Power, and then since 2014, the CEO of the whole group. Officially, I think around May, that was your last day as the CEO, and we're trying actually to imagine, what is the last day of the CEO of Enel? How do you end your day there? I don't expect you to get out with a box with your laptop and stuff as people could see on TV.

差不多吧。最后确实是这样。你随身携带的最后一样东西终究还是你的电脑。没有它你活不下去。所以大致就是这样。

More or less. At the end, yes. The last thing you carry with you is your PC eventually. You cannot live without one. So more or less, that's what happens.

但在我们这里，最后一天基本上就是年度股东大会。就是这样。董事会结束，你向董事会申请。新董事会成立，而你不在其中。

But the last day is basically the AGM in our case. It's like that. So the board ends, and you apply to the board. A new board comes up. You're not in that board.

所以这是你的最后一天。当然，之后你需要进行一些交接工作，与接替你的人一起完成某些任务。但你知道，你一直在为此做准备。这不是一夜之间发生的事情，所以你有一定的时间。你需要处理很多事情，主要是私人生活方面的，突然意识到许多事无法独自完成，并为此做好准备，就是这样。

So it's your last day. And then, of course, you have some handing over, some kind of work that you have to carry out with whoever replaces you, but, you know, you're preparing for it. It's not something that happens overnight, so you know it a little bit of time. You have a lot of things you need to fix, mostly on your private life, lots of things that you all of a sudden have to understand that you cannot do it by yourself, and get ready for that, and that's it.

有更多时间去骑自行车、做各种事情。并不是说你对此充满热情

More time to go cycling and do stuff and do things Not that you're passionate

确实，因为这些需要你独自完成的事情至今需要大量投入和学习。我其实并没有那么多空闲时间。显然，令人伤感的部分在于，你喜欢的那家公司、曾是你生活一部分的公司不复存在了。那个你每天去的地方。这确实令人难过，但或多或少这件事迟早会发生。

exactly, because those things that you have to do by yourself require a lot of dedication and learning so far. I'm not really having that much of the spare time. Well, clearly, there is a sad part, which is the fact that, you know, company you like and the company that was part of your life all this time is no more. The place where you go every day. And that's clearly sad, but more or less that this was going to happen sooner or later.

那么我将从相对简单的部分开始回顾。首先，再次感谢你抽时间在这里，在你结束长期在NL的活动后首次评审项目，聊聊你过去的23年。如果要总结，或许可以说出这23年中的三个高光时刻，你会想到哪些？高光时刻。

So I will start from the somewhat the easy part and just looking back. So first of all, thanks again to dedicate a little time here to review a program for the first time after you're being with the ending, your long activity at NL to have a chat about your previous twenty three years. If you were to summarize, if you maybe let's just say three of the highlights of those twenty three years. What would come to mind? Highlights.

嗯，我

Well, I

我认为首先是欧洲尤其是意大利能源市场自由化的建立。那大约是在2004、2005年。每个人都可以自由选择供应商，而我被委以负责那个部门，你知道，所有客户。我们当时一次性要面对超过3000万客户。工作量非常大。

think, first of all, the establishment of the liberalization of the energy markets across Europe and in Italy in particular. That was about 2005, 2004. Everybody was free to choose their supplier, and I was put in charge of of that division, you know, all the customers. And and we're talking about more than 30,000,000 customers in in one shot. So a a lot of work.

再次强调，锚定电力理念以及我们在一个非常特殊的时刻进行的首次公开募股——那正是2008年金融危机刚结束的时期，随后展现的增长势头。最后，通过我们确立并率先实践的诸多概念，埃奈尔集团转型为埃奈尔绿色电力，这是我职业生涯后期的重要里程碑。这三个关键节点虽非一日之功，却是决定性的转折点。要知道，这涉及一家庞大的企业，任务艰巨。

And then, again, the the anchoring power idea and and the IPO that we carried out in a very special moment, which was right after the financial crisis of two thousand and nine, 2008, and the growth that then showed. And then finally, the transformation of Enel through the concepts that we have somehow established and pioneered Enel Green Power, which was something that took place in the last part of of my career. These three moments, which were not really one day, were pretty large moments, but they were basically the key points. And it's, you know, it's a big task. It's a huge company.

这是一支卓越的团队。当我们共同定义企业价值观、确立公司使命的时刻，我认为这是埃奈尔发展史上的重要转折点，从多方面改写了企业叙事。

It's a fantastic group of people. The moment we defined our values, the moment we defined all together the purpose of the company was, I think, the turning point, the story of Enel in many ways.

确实非常出色。几十年来皆是如此。在这些经历中，对于过去是否有任何遗憾？

Yeah, that's excellent. It's true. So, in decades here. Among those, any regrets over this past

没有。你知道，当你离开如此深爱的公司时，总会想着'我本可以完成这件事、那件事'。但此刻你明白，这种想法其实是徒劳的，因为总有改进空间。是的，我们或许能更早完成同样的工作。

No. No. You know, you you when you leave a company like this that you love so much, you you say, I could have done that and that and that. And you know that this is actually the moment you see that, you feel that it is futile because there's always something to be done to improve things. So, yeah, we could have done the same job maybe a little earlier.

或许我们本可以预判这场战争——虽然也可能无法预见。最大的遗憾是未能在这场悲剧初现端倪时就预见到它的严重性，它从一开始就非常糟糕。但我们都以为战争只会持续数月，可至今仍未结束。如果能更早洞察，我们或许会在更短时间内采取不同行动。不过说到底，这就是全部了。

I think we could have probably anticipated the war or not, maybe not. I think the largest regret is not being able to foresee this tragedy that was taking place as soon as it started because it was really bad from the beginning. But we all thought it was going to last just a few months, but it's still going on right now. And having maybe had that insight, we should have probably done something different in a shorter time frame. But, you know, that's basically it.

如果我没记错的话，巴特提到您确实在战前与普京有过对话，是这样吗？

If I'm correct, actually, I mean, again, Bart says, you did have a conversation with Putin right before the war. Is that correct?

是的。

Yeah.

是的，所以

Yeah. So

是的，因为我们曾是俄罗斯的投资者。没错。我们每半年就要开一次会，这非常麻烦。你得亲自去那里等很长时间，或者在疫情期间进行视频会议，这样好多了。所以这次是视频会议。

Yeah, because we were an investor in Russia. Right. And we had, like, once every six months, either meeting, which was very cumbersome. You had to go there and and wait for a long time, or a video call through the COVID times, which was a lot better. So this was a call, a video call.

没错。那是在战争爆发前大约二十天。当时没人预料到会发生这种事。

Right. It was like twenty days before the war started. No one had a clue that this was going to happen anyway.

不，没那么快。我有个问题可能比较有争议，因为我觉得这在结构上非常意大利特色。政府对能源公司CEO的任命有影响力——不只是意大利，法国、西班牙、希腊等几个大国也这样做——但这仍是个有争议的话题。你怎么看？你觉得这有什么利弊吗？

No, not so quickly. Mean, one question that I have can be controversial because I think it's structurally very Italian. So the government influence over the appointments of CEOs of the energy companies it's not just Italians, there are several big economies that do it France, Spain, Greece but it's still a controversial issue. What is your take of it? I mean, do you see pros and cons there?

嗯，我认为这并非完全不可理解。如果政府现在持有23.6%的股份，作为大股东，他们提名自己倾向的候选人，我觉得这个流程只是有点过时了。可以改进的是流程本身，而不是大股东向其他人提名CEO这件事。提名CEO和董事会候选人名单本身没什么问题。

Well, I think it's not particularly ununderstandable. If the government today owns a 23.6% share, so it's a large shareholder, and I think they indicate their preferred candidates, I think the process is just a little bit old, let's say, that it is something that might be improved insofar the process is concerned, not the fact that the the largest shareholder more or less proposes to the others. A CEO makes sense. I mean, I don't think a CEO and a list of candidates to the board. I don't think that is particularly or anything wrong with that.

我认为关键在于这个流程的具体运作方式，以及单个股东对这种提案说同意或拒绝的权利，这些方面或许可以改进。这可能反映了已经过时的旧制度，不太符合投资者对自己基本权利的认知。但话说回来，我在九年里曾被三届不同政府任命过。

I think it's just the way in which this process is articulated and the rights that single shareholders have to say yes or no to that kind of proposal is maybe something that can be improved like all things. It probably reflects a time that is no more there. So it comes from a distant past. It's maybe not really adequate for what investors see as their fundamental rights. But having said that, I've been appointed three times by different governments over a period of nine years.

我基本上经历了六届政府。

I saw six governments, basically.

是的。我的意思是，

Yes. So, I mean,

担任了九年任期CEO，又在一家上市公司做了四年CEO，这段时间已经足够长了。

do nine years of a CEO on term and another four as a CEO of a listed company, which was a long enough time.

没错没错。老实说，你能够在这家重要企业累积这么多年的经历确实是个例外。是的，这方面确实有改进空间。我的意思是，虽然不算特别独特，但或许是时候该优化一些流程了。

Yeah, yeah. And yours was more of an exception, honestly, from the number of years that you were able actually to put together in such an important company. Yeah, so it is something that can be improved. I mean, it's not particularly unique, but probably I think it's time to develop some of the process.

流程确实可以改进。是的。

The process can be improved. Yeah.

好的。我将从宏观视角出发，结合你在这里的丰富经验，试着探讨你认为能源行业当前面临的最大挑战或最严峻的问题是什么？

Right. I will start from 30,000 feet and from your very long experience here, try to address what do you think is the biggest challenge or the biggest challenges that are facing today the energy industry?

我认为能源行业是个广阔天地。本质上这是一个由电力世界与其他领域（主要是化石燃料公司）构成的双轨体系。如今这两条发展路径正在彻底分道扬镳。电力行业面临的挑战是加速脱碳进程，同时投资于经济体系和社会生活其他领域的电气化改造——通过电力结构的转型，借助脱碳使电力成本持续稳定下降，从而让电力更广泛地服务于其他用户群体，最终提升电力在能源结构中的渗透率。

Well, I think the energy industry is a big world. So if you have basically two industries into one world, the electricity world and the rest, so basically fossil fuel companies. And here, the path are really diverging. I think the electricity industry has a challenge, which is to accelerate decarbonizing and invest in electrifying other parts of the economy, other parts of our social life, so push electricity into the mix given the fact that by decarbonizing electricity, you make it cheaper and you make it also stably cheaper going forward. And therefore, electricity becomes clearly available for other users and therefore, the penetration of electricity mix is increasing.

电力公司的核心任务应该是投资建设输电网络、配电系统和发电设施等基础设施，助力用户实现电气化转型。而对于化石能源行业——包括煤炭、石油和天然气企业——我认为它们应当着力提升能效，例如减少甲烷泄漏，降低运营环节的碳足迹，同时为碳氢化合物需求持续萎缩的未来做好准备，审时度势地谋划转型时机。这完全是另一种发展叙事，更显严峻，但这类企业确实需要重新审视业务模式，适时收缩投资，开始为股东创造现金回报。

And I think the task of the electricity companies is to invest in infrastructure, basically transmission line, distribution lines, generating facilities that make this happening and help customers embrace electrification. I think that's really the core task of these companies. The other ones, if you want the fossil industry, coal and and oil and gas industry, I think they should push to become more efficient. Reduce methane leaks, for example, reduce their food carbon footprint insofar their operations are concerned, and maybe prepare for some moments in which their precious carbons and hydrocarbons are no more needed or are needed less and less and and try to understand when is it time to shift and do something else. I think that's a different story, much more, if you want, somber, but definitely many industries of that kind need to take a hard look at what their operations are and decide when it is time to rein in investments and start generating cash for their shareholders.

是的，归根结底还是要创新。关于这个话题，我想我们正在讨论的是2020年疫情最严重的时候，

Yeah, and innovate at the end of the day. And on that topic, I think we were discussing right in the middle of the pandemic twenty twenty,

你认为

do you think

实际上我们的创新能力是否发生了变化，或许在疫情期间有所提升？你觉得

actually our ability to innovate has changed, has improved maybe over COVID? What do you

具体有什么变化发生在创新过程中？有趣的是，你会好奇人们被封锁、隔离或无法面对面交流时，如何能真正变得更具创新力。我认为我们证明了创新具有极强的韧性，即使面对这类特殊境况。顺便说一句，我认为我们拥有创新。我们持续在技术和流程两方面都有创新，后者虽不一定是技术性的，但大多与人际互动方式相关。

think is there's anything specific happen around that process? Funny because you wonder how can people really start to become more innovative being locked in or isolated or make unable to meet and discuss things in person. I think we proved that innovation is extremely resilient even to these kind of strange situations. And by the way, I think we have innovation. We continue to have innovation in both in technology and in, let's say, processes that not necessarily are technological, but have to do with the way in which people interact most of the time.

我认为这证明了创新其实是我们大脑的一部分，是我们自身的一部分。所以无论处境多么艰难，你依然能创新。我的意思是，这实际上已刻在我们的基因里。

I think it's a proof that innovation is actually part of our brains. It's part of ourselves. So no matter what you do, you can be in very difficult conditions. You still innovate. I mean, actually, is part of our genes, I think.

总体而言，我认为可以观察到的是，创新的方向可能发生了些许改变，正朝着与疫情前、战争前不同的路径发展。但我非常惊讶，同时也非常欣慰地看到创新仍在蓬勃发展，并以显著方式持续推进。相比整体性灾难事件（比如我们经历过的），我认为创新现在对人口结构问题和社会政治条件更为敏感。

All of it, I think what you can observe is that it may be changed a little bit the direction in which it is going, and it's probably starting to go in some way in different directions than initially was pursuing before the COVID and before the war. But I'm quite surprised, and and myself, I'm quite happy to see that innovation keeps flourishing and keeps moving in big ways. I think it's much more sensible to demographic issues and to, say, sociopolitical conditions rather than overall catastrophic events like the one we had.

没错。其实自我们上次交谈后，发生了一件大事——那次重大核聚变突破就发生在离这儿不远的北加州实验室。不过你对核能在未来能源中的角色怎么看？

Yeah. I mean, one of the things actually that happened since we last spoke was this big breakthrough infusion, right, actually happened not too far from here, one of the labs in Northern California. But what do you think about the role of nuclear power in the future of energy?

我认为这里又出现了两个领域：裂变核能与聚变核能。就裂变核能而言，显然必须且正在经历一次重生——从铀钚循环转向钍及其他裂变材料，并采用完全不同的技术。而传统的铀钚技术显然已随着技术发展走到了某种死胡同，现在正需要回头改道探索新方向。这很有必要，因为能源生产需要这类技术作为补充。

Well, I think there are two worlds again here, fissile nuclear power and fusion. On fissile nuclear power, I think it's clear that there must be and there is a rebirth of fissile nuclear energy out of the uranium plutonium cycle going into thorium and other fissile materials with completely different technologies. And it's clear that the the classic uranium, plutonium based technologies have reached some kind of a dead end the way in which technology has evolved. So there is now going back and changing track to see if this is going somewhere else. It helps because there is the need to to complement energy production with some of that.

说实话，聚变技术目前主要还是处于研究阶段，基本上是基础研发。除了在聚变条件、聚变稳定性、以及聚变所需能量与产出能量平衡方面有所改善外，我们谈论的这项技术仍处于...

Confusion, honestly, I think it's still mostly research, basically, basic r and d. And apart from the fact that you have some improvement in the fusion conditions, in the fusion stability, in the balance of energy between what you need to achieve fusion and what you extract out of fusion, but we're talking about something that is

还要多少年？你觉得我们距离商业化应用还有多少年？

How many years? How many years are we far from commercialization, you I think

至少需要几代人时间。

generations, at least.

哦，哇。但有人实际上在这里说过

Oh, wow. But people said actually here

不，我知道。我是1995年毕业的。

No, I know. I graduated in 1995.

不，这正是我正要说的。这就是你的背景。

No, that's what was about to say. That's where you're coming from.

已经。它或多或少已经是今天的融合。遗憾的是，四十多年来它并没有太大进展。所以你必须对核聚变保持现实态度。我的意思是，它并不像看起来那么容易。

Already. It was already a fusion of today, more or less. It didn't move that much in, unfortunately, more than forty years. And so you have to be you have to be realistic about fusion. I mean, it's It's not something that is as easy as it looks.

看。想象你有一颗氢弹不是爆炸，而是以可控方式产生能量。这就是任务。所以很简单。并非

Look. Imagine that you have a hydrogen bomb not exploding, but generating energy in a controlled way. That's the task. So it's simple. Not

说到这个，你认为当今能源行业面临的最大风险是什么？安全问题是其中之一吗？

Speaking of which, do you think there are what are the biggest risks that today the energy industry is facing? Is security one of them?

不。我认为不是安全问题，而是碳平衡。我认为整个能源行业，包括核裂变，也包括化石燃料和化石成分，都还没有完全脱碳。我认为这是核心问题。我们必须脱碳，如果我们不能快速轻松地做到这一点，我们可能会陷入非常危险的境地。

No. I think it's not security, it's the carbon balance. And I think the energy industry as a whole, so that includes also fissile, that includes also, yeah, fossil fuels and fossil components, has not fully decarbonized. I think that's the core issue. We have to decarbonize, and I think if we don't do that easily and fast enough, I mean, we might find ourselves in situations that are really, really dangerous.

这就是任务，也是能源行业的风险所在——你可能达到一个由于灾难性事件发生而不再需要那么多能源的临界点。那时你的能源需求就真的不重要了，因为已经没多少事可做了。我认为这才是关键。能源行业有明确的使命，就是尽可能快速地进行脱碳。

So that's the task, and that's the risk of the of the energy industry, that you might reach a point where you don't need that much of an energy because of catastrophic events that happened on top of you. And therefore your energy needs are really not that important because you don't have that much to do anymore. I think that's really the point. I think the energy industry has that clear mission to carbonize as much as possible and quickly.

正如你所说，你毕业于这些专业。如果要给今天对能源职业感兴趣的年轻人建议，你会告诉他们做什么？如果你2023年才开始职业生涯，你会关注什么？

So, as you said, you graduated from those topics. If you were to give advice to young people that are interested in a career in energy today, what would you tell them to do? If you were to start your career today, 2023, what would you look at?

我仍然会关注工程学，但更多是从材料科学的角度。我认为材料科学确实是未来创新的关键。一直以来都是如此，但现在它如此明显且近在眼前，我会专注于此。

I would still look at engineering, but more on the material science standpoint. So I think material science is really the key to innovation in the future. It's been always like that, but now it's so obvious and it's so incredibly in front of us that I would look at that.

你对AI在能源行业中的作用有何看法？我们不得不谈论AI。我从未见过如此高速发展的事物。至少在我们生活的世界里，每两天就有新的进展叠加。这能否像在生物技术和深度研究领域一样，成为能源与发展的游戏规则改变者？毕竟世界拥有巨大的计算能力。

What are your thoughts about the role of AI in the energy industry? We cannot not talk about AI. I've never seen myself something that is so hyper accelerated. Every two days there's something that is compounding, at least in the world that we're living in. Can that be a game changer also for the energy and development as it might be in biotech and deep research, where the world has vast computational power?

我认为任何拥有可用数据或庞大数据库的领域——能源正是如此，任何存在重复模式的领域——能源也是如此，以及涉及千百万客户的领域——能源同样具备，都是AI的理想应用场景。因此我认为能源领域具备AI蓬勃发展的生态环境：海量数据、持续重复的操作以及数以亿计的客户群体。这是AI应用的绝佳领域。

I think any field that has, let's say, the available data or incredibly large databases, and energy has that, Any field that has repetitive patterns, and energy has that. And has to do with millions and millions and millions of customers, and energy has that, is a fantastic field for AI. So I think the ecological environment where you can prosper with AI is there in the energy field. You have lots of data, you have repetitive actions continuously, and you have millions and millions and millions of customers. Great field for AI.

我想谈谈你对我国（意大利）的看法。我指的是意大利在创新能力、当前竞争力方面的表现——你如何看待2023年的现状？你认为意大利能否很好地应对未来挑战？与同等规模经济体相比仍具竞争力吗？过去几年有个重要变化是GDP干预，CDP可能是意大利最接近主权基金的机构。

I talk want a little bit about your view in our home country. I mean, I've got now two, but I'm talking about Italy here, but in the ability to innovate, to be today competitive, I wonder what is your view today in 2023? You think Italy is well suited to address the challenges of tomorrow. Still, is that competitive compared to similar sized economies? But one thing that happened again over these last few years is the intervention of GDP, CDP that is probably the closest thing to a sovereign fund that Italy has.

他们实际上对初创经济进行了大量投入，包括若干加速器项目、推动开放式创新以及母基金运作。你如何看待这些举措？意大利正走在哪条发展道路上？

And their push and their investment pretty heavily, actually, in the startup economy, a certain number of accelerators, the push for open innovation, the funds of funds. How do you see it? Which path is Italy on?

我认为意大利经济的规模远超国土范围。仅从意大利本身无法解释其经济形态——其规模和影响力远超本国人口和疆域所能承载的限度。显然这是与全球紧密相连的经济体，更多体现的是意大利在世界范围内的投射而非本土本身。

I think that, you know, if you look at the Italian economy, it is much larger than Italy. So the Italian economy, you cannot explain it looking at Italy itself. So it's it's definitely much larger in size and reach than the country in its own population and its own dimension would ever allow it to be. So, clearly, this is an economy that has to do with the world. So it's much more on the projection of Italy around the world than Italy itself.

尽管如此，我认为意大利经济中存在大量未被自我认知的创新。这些创新活动甚至没有意识到自身的创新性——这可以说是意大利创新界的局限。他们在不知不觉中创新，纯粹出于本能。

That said, I think there is an incredible amount of innovation within the Italian economy that is not aware of itself. So there is an innovation that has no consciousness about it being innovative. That is the limit of, if you want, the innovation world of Italy. They innovate without knowing it. They just innovate.

这实则是种损失，最终导致价值分散。你无法真正把握其中的全部价值。那么如何增强这种自我认知？其实有很多工作可以做。

And that is a loss. That is value distraction at the end. You know, you don't really grasp the whole value of that. So what can be done to make it more self conscious? Lots of things.

讨论它。解释什么是创新，并确保人们理解。看看保护知识产权的法律。知识产权之类的。钱并不是重点。

Talk about it. Explain what it is, innovation, and make it sure that make sure that people understand. Look at laws protecting Intellectual property. Intellectual property and stuff. Not really the money.

我是说，钱真的不是重点。所以我认为，某种程度上，你刚才提到的行动具有某种潜在的积极影响，因为显然，如果你推动创新基金，你必须向人们解释他们需要做什么才能获得资格。但价值在于此。不是钱。价值在于人们真正理解什么是创新。

I mean, the the money is not really the point. And so I think, in a way, the actions that you've just mentioned have some kind of potential positive impact, because clearly, if you push a fund on innovation, you have to explain to people what is it that they need to do to qualify for it. But the value is that. It's not the money. The value is that people understand what innovation is, really.

然后他们会说，哦，但我们已经在做这个了。你就说，好的，继续做吧。但要记住，这是创新，你有权保护它，也有权真正意识到它的价值，因为从中你可以获得比你想象的更多的价值。这可以说是意大利创新故事的致命弱点——对经济中创新内容缺乏意识。

And then say, oh, but we've been doing that already. They say, okay, just keep doing it. But remember, it's innovation, and you have the right to protect it, and you have the right to really be conscious about it, because from that, you can have a lot more value than what you do really think. That's really, let's say, the Achilles heel of the Italian innovation story, the lack of consciousness about the innovative content that the economy has.

是的，非常正确。我是说，我需要经历一次自我认知的过程。

Yeah, that's very true. I mean, I need to go through a session of self awareness.

太棒了，是的。

Amazing, yeah.

让我们聊聊你的未来。现在，我们终于有机会和Francesco Starracha交谈，你扮演的另一个角色。现在你完全掌控局面。接下来呢？你打算如何安排现在的时间？

Let's talk about your future. Now, finally, here we're talking to Francesco Starracha, person in another role that you play. So now you're in full control. What now? How are you planning to spend your time now?

除了放松、骑自行车、陪伴家人，还有什么让你感到兴奋的事情？

Other than chilling, biking, spending time with your family, what gets you excited?

是的。你对我有些了解，我这个人其实挺随性的。即便身为CEO面临压力，我也从未变得狂躁。总的来说，我认为我会继续参与目前负责的可持续发展项目，因为这些领域需要推动，而我也乐在其中。我真心觉得投入的时间和精力都非常值得。

Yeah. You know me a little bit, and I'm pretty chilled myself on my own being. Even in the heat of being the CEO, I've never been that of a manic. But overall, I think I will keep basically my role in some of the sustainability initiatives that I'm still involved with because I think that front needs to be pushed, and I enjoy doing that. And I I really think it's it's worthwhile, the time and the effort.

大部分算是义务工作吧，可以这么说。

Mostly, it's pro bono, I would say.

所以这是个非营利领域吗？还是说...

So is it no no profit world, or is that

是非营利的。完全是非营利性质，但我真的很享受。而且顺便说，我从中学到了很多东西。另外还有一项最初由商业驱动的计划，但要等到五月之后我才能透露细节。

a No profit. It's no profit thing, but I I really enjoy it. And then, by the way, I learned a lot of things out of that. And then there is going to be another business driven initially, which I will be able to disclose only after the May. Okay.

我给自己时间到那时，从最近收到的众多邀约中进行筛选和确定——说实话收到这么多邀请让我很意外，简直有点疯狂。我给自己定在五月前做决定，之后等事情确定下来就去度个假。但在这之前得先把这事搞定。

I gave myself time until then to select and define through the many, many different offers that I was quite surprised to get in these days. I mean, it's, like, pretty crazy. But and I gave myself time until May. And then after that is defined, take some vacation. But before that, fix this.

虽然现在正忙得不可开交，但这肯定会是件既有趣又有意义的事。当然，商业驱动是前提。

And, unfortunately, I'm in the middle of it, but it's gonna be something fun and interesting for sure. And, of course, business driven.

至少能透露你会留在意大利吗？还是说...

Can you share at least if you would stay in Italy, or would

无论如何，我们接下来要讨论的是全球范围的事。意大利，话题会是意大利。我很想住在意大利，但情况会是

you It's going talk about global to anyway. Italy, it's going to be Italy. I'd love to live in Italy, but it's going to

全球性的。哦，好吧，那就等到五月再听吧。我们都对你的下一步感到兴奋。弗朗西斯科，再次感谢你。谢谢。

be global. Oh, well, so can wait to hear by the May. So we're all excited about your next step. So, Francesco, thanks again. Thank you.

感谢你所做的一切。实际上，我认为你的影响力无处不在，深受赞赏，我们迫不及待想看到你的下一篇章。祝一切顺利。

Thank you for everything that you did. Actually, think your footprint is all over the place and is much appreciated and can't wait to see next chapter. So all the best.

保重。

Take care.

感谢大家的收听。下一期节目中，我的搭档阿尔贝托·内蒂将与瑞士邮政的蒂埃里·戈利亚德对话。如果你喜欢这个播客，欢迎通过我们的各个在线渠道关注我们，尤其是Mind the Bridge的领英页面。我们会发布所有即将发生的最新动态。

Thanks everybody for listening. In the next episode, my partner in crime, Alberto Neti, will be sitting with Thierry Gogliard of Swiss Post. If you care, if you enjoy this podcast, feel free to follow us also throughout the different channels that we have online, in particular our Mind the Bridge on LinkedIn page. We'll have all the details of what's coming up in our world.

感谢你今天与我们相聚，我们下期《开放创新对话》Mind the Bridge节目再见，届时将与行业领袖畅谈。

Thank you for being with us today and see you in the next episode of Open Innovation Talks, Mind the Bridge, chat with industry leaders.