How Ecommerce CEOs Actually Pay Themselves (Real Answers)

但真正能说清楚的例子其实不多。

But just there's not a lot of clear examples that happen.

有时候是产品线，肖恩。

Product sometimes, Sean.

你可以这么说，乔布斯确实创办了公司，但如果他是从内部一步步升上来的，按他的思维方式，大概也是从产品这条路上来的。

I mean, you can make the argument that Jobs was really like I mean, he he founded the company, but if he'd come up through the company, he probably would have come up through product with the way that he thought.

对。

Yeah.

还有约翰·特尼斯。

And and John Turnis.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得，如果是科技公司，走产品线，或者CTO这条路，是比较常见的。

So, like, I think if you're if you're a tech company, I think through product, through CTO, something like that.

但如果看整个财富500强，最常见的还是COO和CFO。

But if you look at the Fortune 500 as a whole, it's gonna be COO and CFO.

比如，我觉得塔吉特去年大概就任命了新的CEO，是那位COO接任的。

Like, I think Target's Target just named their new or I believe it was probably a year ago, and it was the COO who took over as the CEO role.

所以，这算是传统的晋升路径了。

So it's like, that's that's the traditional path.

你知道吗？

You know what?

如果你们真想问问他们，其实挺有意思的。

If you guys ever wanna ask them I mean, this is just fun.

我就这么干了。

I just did it.

你可以让AI帮你列一份名单，那些经营了几十年、由家族掌控的大型私营企业。

But, like, if you get you can get a list, thanks AI, of, like, large privately owned companies that have been around for decades and are owned by families.

这份名单其实相当惊人。

The list is actually really impressive.

像嘉吉、可口可乐、玛氏、博世、奥乐齐、宜家、贝塞尔、考克斯，这些名字我们都很熟悉。

You've got, like, Cargill and Coke and Mars and Bosch and Aldi and IKEA and Bethel and Cox, like names that we actually do know.

对吧？

Right?

大多数美国人应该都听过这些名字。

Like, most Americans would know these names.

这些公司里，有些从上世纪30年代就存在了。

Are these Some of these companies have been around since, like, the 1930s.

是的。

Yeah.

但你知道吗，这份名单有个共同点，里面好多都是欧洲的企业。

But, you know, the big thing that that list has in common, there's a lot of European names on there.

确实不少。

A lot.

天哪。

Oh, dude.

费列罗就是个很好的例子。

Ferrero is a great one.

对吧？

Right?

巴里拉也很厉害。

Barilla is a great one.

你们要是感兴趣的话，可以去查一下宜家的所有权结构，他们怎么把这家公司做成私有资产的，简直让人难以置信。

If you guys ever wanna see I mean, or they're going on a really crazy rabbit hole, like, the ownership structure of IKEA and, like, the way that they keep that as, like, a privately held asset, it's pretty nuts.

这家公司的规模真的非常大。

I mean, that business is really, really big.

一年的营收高达八百亿美元。

Like, $80,000,000,000 a year big.

可以说是全球最大的公司之一。

It's, like, one of the biggest companies.

罗杰斯也有类似的情况，肖恩，他们有一个基金会作为核心架构。

Rolex has a similar one, Sean, where they have this kind of foundation piece.

是的。

Yeah.

所以举个例子，这种模式可能更合我的口味。

And and so, like, as an example, like, that's probably more my jam.

对吧？

Right?

关键在于有一个基础架构。

That, like, there's a foundational component.

还有一个很大的捐赠部分。

There's a big giving component.

对我来说，其中一点就是我想保留灵活性，因为我有两个孩子，一个11岁，一个14岁，所以我在想，也许……

Like, piece of this, like, for me is that I just want optionality because I've got two kids and I'm like that are 11 and 14, and I'm like, maybe.

他们将来可能会想参与经营公司，或者插上一手，但他们现在还太小，不可能真这么想。

I could see both one or either of them wanting to help run the business or, you know, be involved, but they're also too young to be thinking like that.

所以我只想留点余地。

So I just wanna keep my options open.

明白了。

Okay.

很高兴我们能聊这个话题。

I'm glad we're having this conversation.

在这期播客之前，我半小时前刚和一位业内大型私营企业主通了电话。

I'd before this podcast, I had a call thirty minutes ago with a big strategic in my space who was privately held.

他爷爷创办了这家公司，他爸爸继承下来，现在由他来经营。

And his grandfather started the business, then his father inherited the business, and now he runs the business.

这是一家年收入数十亿美元的企业。

And this is a multibillion dollar a year business.

我之所以提起这个，是因为他刚有了第三个孩子，而且他还有两个兄弟姐妹。

And I was talking about this because, you know, he just had his third kid, and he's got, you know, two siblings.

所以他现在在想：

So he's like, look.

他正面临这样的问题：

He's having this conversation right now.

当初接手生意时那么顺理成章，现在该怎么设计传承结构呢？

He's like, how do I set up the structure when it was so easy?

以前是父亲传给爷爷，再往前是祖父。

It was, you know, my father and then his father.

现在可好，一共有九个孩子。

Now there's gonna be nine kids.

咱们怎么才能保证这基业不被搞垮？

How do we make sure this thing doesn't get ruined?

这个话题可能得留到另一期再说，迈克，但我在想那些根本性的架构。

So maybe a different episode for a different day, Mike, but thinking about foundational structures.

也许这个话题受众太小了，但我真想听听这方面的看法。

Maybe it's too niche of an audience, but I'd love to hear about it.

我完全不觉得会太小众。

I I don't think so at all.

如果你接触的是巨额资产，这对我来说就像一种兴趣。

I think that if you're involved with really big numbers so this is a kind of hobby for me.

我不确定‘兴趣’这个词准不准确，但确实是我花了不少时间去关注的事。

I don't know if hobby is the right word, but it's like a thing that I've devoted some time to.

我经常跟那些家族交谈，他们的长辈白手起家创办了企业，现在已经是第三代了。

Talking to exceptionally wealthy families where the patriarch kinda started a business, and now they're at generation three.

因为我最想弄清楚的是，他们是怎么搭建企业架构的，怎么管理资金的，结果如何，过程中又学到了什么。

Because the the thing that I really wanna understand is how did they structure the business, how did they structure the money, and how has it turned out, and what have they learned through the process.

我之所以想找年纪大、已经有孙子辈的人聊，是因为时间足够长了，他们能看清自己当初决定带来的长远影响。这跟找财富管理师、遗产规划师这些人聊其实很像。

And the reason why I wanna talk to people that are old enough that they've got grandkids is that it's given enough time for them to understand kind of the ramifications of their actions, And it's very similar to if you talk to wealth managers, the the type of people that do estate planning and stuff like this.

你真正能学到的是——大多数正拼命赚钱的人根本想不到：赚钱其实没那么难，难的是怎么守住这笔钱，别让它把全家拖垮。

And what you really learn, and this is what most people who are kind of in the process, I think, of going after money don't think about, is the obtaining of money is actually, in my mind, a lot easier than steward that stewarding that money well, and making sure that money doesn't burn your family to the ground, basically.

这些就是我从所有这些对话里总结出来的。

This is what I've got from all these things.

所以你真得花大量时间，认真、有意识地去思考这些问题。

And so you should spend a ton of time thinking very intentionally about these things.

当然，有个成功的生意很棒，能给你很多选择。

Like, it's great if you have a successful business, and it gives you a lot of options.

但与此同时，随之而来的风险也实实在在存在。

But also, there's a there's there's real peril that comes with that.

这中间总有取舍。

There's trade offs.

所以我花了很多时间去琢磨，怎么说呢。

And so I've actually spent a lot of time trying to figure out like, hey.

我该怎么避免Simple Modern的成功让我的孩子、甚至孙子孙女过得不幸福？

How do I prevent the success of Simple Modern from making my kids and my kids' kids miserable?

你知道的。

You know?

比如你看范德比尔特家族，

Like, if you look at I think it's the the Vanderbilts.

那个家族的境遇真是让人难以置信。

It's just insane the way that that family

真是个糟糕的故事。

A gross story.

没错。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这笔财富直接把整个家族烧得一干二净。

I mean, the the the wealth just burned the family to the ground.

什么都没剩下。

It was all gone.

他当时可是美国最富有的人，仅次于洛克菲勒。

Like, he was, like, the richest man in America or second to Rockefeller.

到了第三代，所有家产就全没了。

And by the time they were in the third generation, it was all gone.

是啊。

Yeah.

安德森·库珀是两百年来第一个真正成功的范德比尔特。

Anderson Cooper is the first successful Vanderbilt in, like, two hundred years.

而且不只是钱没了那么简单。

And and it was like it wasn't even just that the money was gone.

更糟糕的是，这还让所有人都过得特别痛苦。

It was like and it made them all miserable.

所以我觉得，这总会让我想起我常在节目里说的那句话。

And so I I think I it always comes back to me to the thing I always say on the show.

你得先搞清楚自己到底想要什么，才能谈怎么获得成功。

It's like, you can't even talk about how to be successful until you understand what you're aiming at.

一旦你明白了自己的目标，比如就算是在讨论怎么给自己发工资，你也得先问自己：我的目标是什么？

And once you understand what your goals are, so like, even if you're talking about how do you pay yourself, it's like, what are your goals?

你懂的？

You know?

所以对我来说，我希望能够……我希望能够

Like so for me, I wanna be able to I wanna be able

把事业之外的事情

to have priorities outside of

放在首位。

the business.

我希望家人健康，孩子们也能过上幸福的生活。

I want my family to be healthy and my kids to have good lives.

而且呢，我希望为公司所做的事情感到骄傲，也希望能让其他人获得力量。

And, you know, I wanna be proud of of, like, what the company does, and I wanna empower other people.

所以我做决定的时候，都会围绕这一点来考虑。

And so I'm gonna make decisions around that.

这跟肖恩或者马特可能完全不同，但这没关系，因为我有自己的成功标准。

And that might be really different than Sean or Matt, and that's okay because I have my own success criteria.

我想起电商圈里还有一个特别有名的故事。

I would say there's another famous story in the ecommerce space.

那是在疫情暴发期间的事。

This was during the COVID boom.

有个人做的是配饰品牌。

Guy had an accessories brand.

有人来找他谈收购，他直接说：我要十亿美元。

He gets approached by strategic to buy them, and he goes, I want a billion dollars.

那时候公司年收入大概六千万左右吧。

The company was doing about, like, 60,000,000 a year or whatever.

当时，对方就说，好吧。

Like then, like, strategic was like, okay.

我们会去争取一下，看看情况如何。

We'll make the case for it, and we'll see what's going on.

结果他签了个很糟糕的协议，因为没达到业绩预期。

And he ended up getting into a horrible deal because, like, he missed projections.

这根本就是坑人。

It was predatory.

他急需资金。

He needed money.

他需要一笔贷款。

He needed a loan.

因为他心里一直死死盯着那个目标。

And it's because in his mind like, he's anchored.

他觉得，我非得拿到十亿美元不可。

He's like, I need a billion dollars.

所以我们刚才扯得有点远了。

So we just rambled a lot.

如果你能从这次对话里记住一件事，那就是搞清楚什么是真正的成功。

If you could take away one piece from this, it's understand what winning looks like.

搞清楚成功的模样是什么。

Understand what success looks like.

我老说一句话，尽快赚到你的第一个一百万美元。

And I always say this, get your million your first million dollars as fast as possible.

不管你是得卖掉整个公司、拿分红，还是做点别的什么，先拿到这第一百万，然后再像迈克说的那样，好好规划接下来的路。

It's if you have to sell the whole business or take distributions or do whatever, get that first million dollars, and then really build that road map like Mike's talking about.

想清楚你的收入该往哪儿走，你的终极目标到底是什么。

Understand where you need to go with with with your earnings and and what is what's your dream outlook.

我再补充一个观点：稀缺和限制其实对我们是有好处的。

I'll build one more concept on top of it, that scarcity is good for us, and constraints are good for us.

有一本新书即将出版，专门讲稀缺和限制带来的积极影响。

There's a new book that's coming out that talks exclusively about the really positive side of scarcity and constraints.

我们创业初期资金特别紧张，但这反而逼着我们做出更明智的决定，锻炼出更强的战略思维，毕竟手头钱太少了。

And the we we were really undercapitalized early on as a business, and it helped us to make much better decisions and grow the muscle of being really strategic in our decisions because we just didn't have very much money.

同样的道理也适用于你的个人资产负债表。

But the same is true about your personal balance sheet.

缺乏资源约束会让人变得懒惰。

A lack of scarcity breeds laziness.

让人把钱花在不该花的地方。

It breeds investing in things you shouldn't invest in.

让人变得松懈。

It breeds getting soft.

对吧？

Right?

这些情况确实都存在。

Like, all these things are true.

所以我一直没把五千万拿出去，就是因为我觉得，这对我反而是个负担。

And so, like, there's also a reason why I haven't taken out $50,000,000 or whatever, because it's like, I think it would be a net negative on me.

我手头的钱足够生活了。

I've got enough to live.

够过上挺不错的生活，但我不会拿太多，免得变得懒散、安逸，这事儿真会发生。

I've got enough to do very nice things, but, like, I'm not trying to take out so much that I I get fat and fat and happy because that really that that that's a real thing.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

我信奉设定一些踮起脚尖也够不着的目标，逼着自己不断努力，只拿眼下真正需要的那部分钱。

I'm I'm a believer in, like, I try and have goals that I can't quite reach, and that I have to work towards, and I only take out enough to kind of for what I need right now.

如果你现在在做电商，光靠广告是不够的。

If you're scaling an ecommerce brand today, ads alone aren't enough.

Aftersell 专注于每个品牌在结账后本来就拥有的那个时刻，把售后体验变成额外的利润。

Aftersell focuses on the one moment that every brand already owns after checkout and turns the post purchase moment into more profit.

通过结账后的促销和感谢页设计来提升每笔订单的收益，还不影响结账流程或转化率。

Monetize every order with post purchase offers and thank you page experiences without disrupting checkout or hurting conversion.

Gap、Ticketmaster、梅西百货、塔吉特都在用的企业级技术，现在正帮助 True Classic、HexClad、Ridge 和 Jones Road 等品牌取得成果。

Enterprise grade tech used by Gap, Ticketmaster, Macy's, Target now driving results for brands like True Classic, HexClad, Ridge, and Jones Road.

我当然清楚。

I would know.

这就是我最后买了三口Hexclad锅，而不是两口的原因。

This is the reason I ended up buying three pans from Hexclad instead of two.

Aftersell 已经为电商品牌额外创造了超过十亿美元的收入，而且这些收入不需要增加流量或提高获客成本。

Aftersell has already generated over $1,000,000,000 in additional revenue for ecommerce brands, revenue that doesn't require more traffic or higher CAC.

去试试 Aftersell，记得说是个运营推荐你的。

So check out Aftersell and tell them that the operator sent you.

我这边也有一些想法。

I got a few things on this.

我觉得，Sean，你最先提到的，其实是对财务安全和财务自由之间区别的理解。

I think the Sean, what you're hitting on first is an understanding between, like, I would say the framing is financial security and then financial freedom.

目标应该是尽快达到安全状态——所谓安全，就是现在很难被彻底打垮了。

So like, the goal is, I think get to security as fast as possible security being like, it's very hard to get knocked out of the game personally now.

自由呢，就像那句电影台词，就是那个‘去你的’数字，对吧？

Freedom is like the the the movie quote, like the f u number, right?

就是说，钱多到没人能真正左右你的决定。

So it's like, it's enough money that like, nobody can ever really tell you what to do.

但具体是多少，得看你住在哪、目标是什么，各种因素都有关。

And those those are different based on where you live and what your goals are and all that stuff.

不过我觉得，这种说法挺简洁明了的。

But I would say like, that's a simple framing.

就是先保证安稳，再追求自由。

It's like security, you know, and then freedom.

我觉得，迈克，我从你的话里体会到的是，你得特别留意这一点——我见过一些朋友暴富后，反而过得更糟。

And I think Mike, for me, like what I'm taking from you is, is that if you, I would be very conscious of this, like, and I've seen friends that get very wealthy, that it is actually a net negative.

但也有一些朋友，他们赚了很多钱之后。

And then I have friends where they get very wealthy.

相反，他们花了很多心思保持干劲和自律，不让财富拖垮自己。

And then the opposite side of that is they've put a lot of effort into keeping sort of like drive and discipline alive so that it doesn't actually net drag them down.

对吧？

Right?

他们往往是一群傻瓜，我这么说其实是带着点亲切的意思，因为我自己可能也是这种人——报名参加铁人三项，故意找些难事来做，就怕自己变得太安逸。

So like they tend to these are the jackasses who and I say that endearingly because I might be one of them that like sign up for triathlons and and like they wind up doing other hard things in life to keep them from getting soft.

我想说的第三点，是我从你们这里得到的另一个体会。

And I guess my third thing my takeaway from you with this with you guys.

我不确定你认识多少这样的人，但就我目前的生活圈来看，过去十年里，有不少人把公司卖了。

I don't know how many people you know like this, but in my, I guess in my life right now, a lot of people have sold companies over the last ten years.

不管是谁，我总会听到两个共同的感慨。

Inevitably, I get there's like two common things I hear from both of them.

第一，我不该卖的。

Always one, I shouldn't have done that.

拥有它本身就有价值。

It was valuable just owning it.

第二，我真的很怀念有现金流的日子。

And two, I really missed having cash flow in my life.

就这么简单。

Like, it's it's that simple.

他们银行里可能有上亿美元。

It's like they might have a $100,000,000 in the bank.

但他们说：‘我手头一点现金流都没有，这太糟了。’

They're like, but I got no cash flow, man, and it sucks.

现在钱只出不进。

Money only goes out now.

所以我觉得，这一切背后都有些值得你留意的深层逻辑。

So I think there's, like, dynamics to all of this that you just should be aware of.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

说到这儿，正好回到我们刚才讨论的主题：如果你是老板兼经营者，就应该给自己发市场水平的薪水。

And and I guess to bring us all the way full circle with what we're talking about, if you're an owner operator, you should pay yourself a market salary.

我建议你逐步朝着分红的方向努力，但如果企业能做出很好的投资，还是该把钱留在公司里。最好的状态是两边兼顾——既能拿一份高薪，又不耽误公司发展。

I think it's good to try and build toward distributions, but you should keep money inside the business if you can make really good investments, and having some kind of a balance is a really great place to be, where you make a really good salary.

而且你每天都在经营的这个资产，还会持续给你带来额外的分红收入。

And then also you have this asset that you're working on every day that's paying you some additional money as distributions.

我特别喜欢这种状态，如果你能达成这样的局面，那就太好了，未来无论你想往哪个方向发展，都有最大的自由度。

And I I just I've loved being in that situation, and I think if you achieve that, it's great, and you have maximum optionality about where you wanna go from there.

有个不错的参考标准：在年收入500万美元之前，CEO的薪酬可以定为总收入的1%；超过这个数后，基本薪资就定在500万，再加上奖金，总额大概也是500万左右。

And I'll just say a good rule of thumb, 1% of top line revenue as a salary for CEO replacement up until about $500 a year, and then it's one then it's $500 plus bonuses equaling probably $500.

肖恩，你是怎么考虑给你那位总裁——也就是你现在说的COO，但实际上是接班人的那位——发薪酬的？

Sean, how do you think about compensating your president who or your kind of you said he's your COO right now, but you're kind of president in waiting position.

你会怎么设计这个薪酬方案？

How would you think about that?

最难的其实是，怎么让人愿意长期留下来？

The hardest thing is how do you keep someone around for years?

对吧？

Right?

你知道的，他已经在这儿干了三年了，或者类似的时间。

Like, you know, he's been here three years or whatever.

我可能三年后还不想走。

I might not be ready to move on in three years.

所以他得有足够高的薪水，能支撑起他想要的生活。

So, like, he has to have enough salary to, you know, float whatever life he is.

这个人是我们招来的，本来就是COO了。

Also, this is somebody we recruited who was already a COO.

为了请他来，我实际上得给高出不少的薪酬。

Like so I had I had to overpay, basically, to get this person in in the door.

而且他的奖金方案也很丰厚。

And then he has a strong comp package in terms of bonus.

算上奖金，他可能是公司里第二或第三高薪的人。

So, like, you know, he could he could be the second or third highest paid person at the company, including his bonus.

我们这儿有律师，律师的收入都很高。

We have lawyers, and lawyers make a ton of money.

此外，他还持有公司百分之几的股份。

And then he has a multi percentage point ownership interest in the business.

所以，最难的地方就在于，家族企业能成功，是因为孩子们从小就知道，他们得把这份家业好好接过来管下去。

So, like, the the hardest thing and the reason why family businesses work is because your kids, from a very young age, they know that they have to shepherd this thing.

对吧？

Right?

欧洲的企业就是这么做的。

Like, that's how European companies do it.

那你怎么建立一套体系，去请专业的人来经营这家公司呢？

How do you build a structure to hire people to manage that business?

就算你再讨厌上市公司，或者不喜欢那些大公司——你可能根本不想跟它们打交道——但美国这种公众股东的监督机制，确实能把公司往正路上带。

And as much as you hate public companies or, you know, like, you you might not like the large scale companies that, like, you have to interact with, the public shareholder interest that we have in America does a great job keeping companies on the right track.

对吧？

Right?

你很少听说CFO贪污、卷款潜逃或者干别的违法的事，就是因为有一套严密的制度在管着。

It's it's very rare to hear about, you know, CFOs stealing money or or running off with drugs or whatever, and it's because there's a lot of structure put in place.

所以很多公司选择上市，正是因为上市后带来的那种全方位的监督。

So that's there's a reason why a lot these companies go public is because just all of the extra scrutiny that goes with being public.

但在私企里，这该怎么做到呢？

But how do you do that in a private company?

你得花上好多年，一点一点建立起信任。

It's like you have to build trust over years and years and years.

所以我们当时只能这么走。

So that's the way we had to do it.

迈克，我很好奇，因为肖恩提到，你得清楚自己想要什么。

Mike, I am then curious, because Sean brought up the, you you need to know what you want.

你之前也说过这一点。

You've mentioned it.

我想知道，你是不是在打长远的算盘？

I would like to know if you are thinking sort of, like, long game.

你最终的目标到底是什么？

Like, what are the ultimate goals for you?

就个人而言。

Like, just personally.

然后，肖恩，我特别想知道，你Beyond Ridge之后打算怎么走？

And then, Sean, I'd really like to know, how you even beyond Ridge.

你投身商业这个圈子，才三十出头，但在这行里其实还很年轻。

Like, you're in this game of business, and you're you're, like, in your early thirties, But you're so young in this game.

迈克，要不你先说吧，我特别喜欢这个话题。

So maybe, Mike, kick us off because I I love this topic.

有榜样确实有帮助，你可以看看别人，不一定要照搬。

It helps to have avatars, people that you can look at and say, not necessarily.

我不一定要跟他们做完全一样的事，但能从他们身上获得启发。

I wanna do exactly that, but I wanna draw inspiration from that.

我确实找到过好几户人家，让我从中得到启发。

And I I think there have been several families that that I found that from.

我自己状态不太好。

I don't do great.

如果不在群体里，也不去解决实际问题，我就发挥不出最好的状态。

I'm not at my best if I'm not in community and if I'm not working on problems.

我对自己这点很清楚。

I know this about myself.

如果完全脱离Simple Modern这个生意，我就会去找别的问题来解决。

If I were to abstract completely from the Simple Modern business, I would just go look for other problems to work on.

随着手头越来越灵活，我开始做播客，也给几家公司做顾问。但正因为我了解自己，这家公司才真正为我的生活增添了价值——它让我能和喜欢的人一起解决有趣的问题，这太重要了。

And as I've had more flexibility, I've been able to work on the podcast, I have several businesses that I advise for, but knowing that about myself, one of the ways that the company I've created adds value to my life is it gives me interesting problems to solve with people I like being around, and that's really valuable.

明白了。

So okay.

这确实是个优势，我希望它能持续下去，不只三四年，而是十年、二十年，除非发生我完全想不到的变故。

That's an asset, and that's something I'd want to be true, probably not just for the next three or four years, but probably for the ten or twenty years, unless something were the were the change that I can't foresee.

明白了。

So okay.

这确实是个加分项。

That's a value add.

我非常重视慈善捐赠，很高兴能通过公司来做一部分，这也让我有能力在公司之外继续做公益。

I really am committed to philanthropic giving, and I love that I can do some of that through the company, and it makes it possible for me to give outside the company.

我就是那种人，一想到就觉得——

And I'm one of the these types of people that's like, hey.

如果你能赚钱，又喜欢捐钱，那就尽量多赚点吧。

If you can make money and you like to give money away, you should try and make as much money as possible.

我觉得我们现在的文化是这样的——

I I think we live in a culture where it's like, hey.

拼命赚钱，好买更多东西，但我并不认同这种想法。

Make as much money as possible so you can buy the most stuff, and I I don't subscribe to that.

不过，就像肖恩在本集开头说的，钱确实能做很多好事，我也希望赚更多钱，去产生更大的正面影响。

But I do think, like, obviously, as Sean said at the beginning of the episode, like, you can do a lot of really positive things with money, and I'd like to make a lot of really positive impact.

所以我很有动力继续创业。

So I'm pretty motivated to keep building businesses.

至于个人生活，说实话，我已经过得很不错了。

And then, you know, from a personal lifestyle perspective, I guys, I already have a great life.

我很爱我的家人。

Like, I love my family.

我最喜欢做的事就是陪家人待在一起。

My favorite thing to do is to spend time around my family.

我有很多真挚的友谊和良好的社群关系。

I have a lot of great friendships and a lot of great community.

我住在这栋自己盖的房子里，而且一点债务都没有。

I live in this awesome house that I built that I don't have any debt on.

所以我觉得，我已经差不多把生活所需的东西都凑齐了，没想到真正让我满足的东西居然这么少。

And so, like, I think I've kind of, like, already basically maxed out the kind of lifestyle thing, and I found that it's actually shocking how little it takes for that to be true in my life.

因此，我现在更关心的是，

And so I'm much more concerned now with,

好的。

okay.

怎样才能让这一切对我的孩子来说也足够美好？

What's it look like for this to be great for my kids?

我怎样才能更深入地参与慈善，真正影响更多人的生活？

What does it look like for me to be engaged in philanthropy and making an impact on a lot of people's lives?

我希望能每天有事情做，有难题可以解决，有谜题可以琢磨，而且是和我喜欢的人一起。

What does it look like for me to be able to have something to work on, You know, problems to solve, puzzles to solve on a day to day basis with people I enjoy.

我觉得我现在更想要的是灵活性，想能自由切换，每天自己挑个难题来解。

And I think the one thing that I want more that I've decided I want more flexibility with is that I wanna be able to kinda roam around and pick the puzzle each day.

我不喜欢每天都一模一样。

I don't I like it when no day is the same.

这种灵活性对我来说特别重要，大概是因为我自己当老板吧。

So that's probably the piece of flexibility that's unique to me because I own the business.

就是说，嗯。

It's like, hey.

我可以。

I can.

我可以来回穿梭在各个业务部门之间。

I can bounce around to our different business units.

我可以去给别的业务提建议。

I can go advise another business.

你知道吗？

And you know what?

如果是星期三，我就是想录个播客，或者陪老婆吃个午饭，一吃就是三小时，我也能说做就做。

If it's Wednesday and I just wanna do a podcast or I just want to take my wife to lunch for three hours, like, I can do that.

所以，最后一部分，我想称之为自主权。

And so the the last piece I would just call agency.

我想过一种尽可能有自主权的生活，而这份事业让我既能实现这一点，又不丢掉其他东西。

I wanna live as high an agency life as you possibly can, and the business makes it possible for me to do that while also maintaining these other things.

但这两者通常很难兼得。

And it's usually mutually exclusive.

要么你有有趣的问题可解决、有事可做，要么你有极高的自主权，但很难同时拥有两者。

Like, I either have, like, interesting problems to solve and things to work on, or I have really high agency, but you can't have both at once.

我现在正琢磨着怎么才能两全其美。

And I'm trying to figure out how to do that.

迈克，你父母是多大年纪时把房子贷款还清的？

Mike, how old were you when your parents or how old were your parents when they paid off their house?

天啊，我真的不知道，肖恩。

Gosh, I I don't even know, Sean.

大概他们五六十岁的时候吧。

Probably probably their fifties, sixties.

我不太清楚。

I don't know.

在创业圈以外，你得记住

Outside of the entrepreneur community, you have

很多人要还三十年的房贷。

to remember people have mortgages for thirty years.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

所以呢，他们可能才三十岁。

So, like, you know, they could be 30.

要到六十岁才能还清房贷。

They're gonna be paid off a house till they're 60.

如果你能快速达成，这就是为什么赚到第一百万美元如此关键。

And if you can speedrun this is why getting the first million dollars is so important.

马特说得很好，称之为财务安全。

Matt did a great job calling it financial security.

就是把房子贷款还清就行。

It's like, just pay your house off.

只要你把房子贷款还清，没有债务，哪怕去星巴克打工也能活下去。

Because if you pay your house off, if you have no debt and your house is paid off, you could work at Starbucks and survive.

房价实在太贵了。

It's like housing is so expensive.

我说的就是要搞定这一关。

So it's like, you just that's the box I'm talking about checking.

只要不再有房贷，之后一切都会变得轻松很多。

Just get to the point where you have no mortgage, everything becomes a lot easier after that.

而且我想说一点我观察到的现象：当你有钱之后，就会觉得钱能解决所有问题。

Well and like, I just will say one qualitative thing that I've observed, and that is when you have a lot of money, you start to think that that's the tool that solves every problem.

但你慢慢会发现，它其实只解决少数几个问题。

And what you start to find is it's it's only it solves a few problems, really.

比如，我想找点事做，有上万种不花钱的方式，一样能让人特别满足。

Like, if I want something to do, there's a million ways I can do that that don't involve spending money that are gonna be deeply satisfying.

但要是我有

But if I have a

很多钱，就会觉得，哦，我得挑个花钱多的，比如坐私人飞机去个地方什么的。

lot of money, it's like, oh, you know, I gotta pick something that, you know, spends a lot of money, like I'm gonna fly private somewhere or something.

我觉得，财富让人迷失的一种方式就是，你开始觉得：我有这么多钱，必须用掉它，它得解决我遇到的每个难题——其实根本不是这么回事。

And I think that that's one of the ways that you can get turned upside down by wealth is you just start thinking, well, I have all this, and I've gotta use it, and it must be the tool for any challenge or problem I face, and it's just not true.

长期赞助商Northbeam将在本季度晚些时候推出增量分析功能。

Longtime sponsor, Northbeam, is launching incrementality later this quarter.

这意味着你现在可以在一个平台上同时获得营销衡量的三大核心工具。

This means that you can now have the trifecta of marketing measurement all in one platform.

也就是多点归因、媒体组合建模和增量对照实验，全部集成在Northbeam里。

That is multi touch attribution, media mix modeling, and incrementality holdouts all inside of Northbeam.

你可以端到端地自动化这种提升测试，把结果和你的多点归因数据整合起来——虽然这一堆缩写看着挺吓人，但懂的人自然懂。

You can automate that lift testing end to end, unify results with your MTA and your This is a lot of letters, but if you know, you know.

你可以果断砍掉无效的渠道，同时放大那些真正有效的部分。

And you can start to cut what doesn't work, and you can scale what works.

而且你完全可以信心十足地这么做。

And you can do this all with confidence.

这就是为什么增量分析功能对Northbeam来说简直是神来之笔。

This is why this is such an incredible add to Northbeam.

Northbeam的增量分析能真实反映营销带来的实际效果，而不是只看它们自己声称的功劳。

Northbeam's incrementality measures what results marketing is actually generating, not just what they're claiming credit for.

作为CEO，这话听起来简直像天籁之音。

As a CEO, that's like music to my ears.

现在注册，就能锁定全年无限次测试五折优惠。

Sign up now, and you can lock in 50% off unlimited tests for the year.

对。

Yes.

那个敲钉子的事儿。

The hammer nail thing.

说实话，确实会这样。

Like, unfortunately, it does that.

你知道吗，肖恩，我想快速回一下你那个还清房贷的问题。

You know, Sean, I want to just go back real quick to the payoff your house thing.

网上关于买房、租房，到底该不该把贷款还清的讨论太多了。

There's a lot of content and discussion on buying a house, renting a house, like, should you pay it off?

这真的是好的理财建议吗？

Should you is it is that good financial advice?

这话题在互联网上可太火了。

There's so this is such a hot topic on the Internet.

但要说给创业者听，我一直觉得，尤其是在现在这种低利率环境下——我们还得承认，这环境确实没变。

But like speaking specifically to entrepreneurs, I have long maintained that while in a even in especially in like these low interest environments, I mean, we're still in a low interest environment.

咱们就直说吧。

Let's just call it what it is.

从历史角度看，这利率其实不算高。

Like, it's not that high relative to history.

如果你是创业者，又没房贷，那这反而是个不错的资金用途——毕竟你每天已经承担了那么多风险，能睡个安稳觉太重要了。

If you're an entrepreneur and you don't have a mortgage, that's a good use of capital because like that is literally sleeping at night when you already take so much risk in your day to day life.

我觉得吧，我经常跟人说，别听那些人讲，说你该把钱拿去投资，留着房贷，赚个利差。

You know, like don't list in my view, I tell people all the time, like, do not listen to the people that say, yo, no, you should just invest the money, have a mortgage, take the spread between the interest and what you would make.

可你照样睡不着觉。

You're still not gonna sleep better.

作为创业者，我宁愿用一切换一个踏实的睡眠。

And as an entrepreneur, like, I would take the sleep all day long.

我想说的是，我现在的这套房子，在我眼里差不多就像个奖杯。

I would take on this to just say that, like, my the house that I have is kind of like, in my mind, almost like a trophy.

就是，你看。

It's like, hey.

我辛辛苦苦经营生意，终于能买下它，还全款付清了。

I worked really hard on the business, and I was able to buy this thing and pay for this thing.

所以感觉特别棒。

And so it feels great.

真的特别棒。

It feels great.

你看，

Like, hey.

这简直就是个实实在在的提醒。

Here's concrete reminder.

我再给你打个比方。

I'll give you guys an an an another analogy.

我跟雷霆队关系特别好，他们去年拿了冠军。

So, like, I'm really tight with the thunder, and they won the championship last year.

通常来说，球队里的每个人都会得到一枚戒指，还有一些后勤人员和俱乐部相关人员也会有。

And usually, the way it works is, like, everybody on the team gets a ring and then, like, some of the support staff and some of the organization.

所以，他们特意为几位不在球队名单上的人也定制了戒指。

And so, like, as a thing they did for a few people that weren't on the team, they they gave out rings.

我不清楚他们做了多少个。

And I don't know how many of these made.

可能做了十个吧。

They maybe they made 10.

也可能做了五十个。

Maybe they made 50.

我真的不知道。

I don't know.

但他们给了我一枚戒指。

But, like, they gave me a ring.

那这枚戒指到底值多少钱呢？

And so, like, how much is this ring worth?

我也说不准。

I don't know.

我不清楚他们买材料花了多少钱。

Like, I don't know how much it cost them for the materials.

但关键是，他们选择送给我，这就让这个礼物变得特别珍贵。

But the point is that they chose to give it to me, and, like so that makes it really valuable.

我觉得，马特，这种道理其实也适用于那些实实在在的东西。

And I just think I think that it's kind of the same kind of concept with with concrete things, Matt.

当你把一切都变成投资回报的计算时，你就忽略了我们心理上真正看重的东西。

Like, when you turn everything into an like, a return on investment calculation, you miss the point about how we work psychologically.

对吧？

Right?

就像你说的，我老婆，房子已经全款付清，没有房贷，这让她睡得特别香，那这到底值多少钱？

Like you said, my wife, the fact that the house is paid off and we don't have a mortgage, like, makes her sleep great, and it's like, what was that worth?

对我来说，这根本是无价的。

That's pretty much priceless for me.

这价值可太高了。

It's worth a lot.

迈克，我得说，你刚才在我心里直接升了两级。

Well, I just wanna say, Mike, you've just moved up two full notches in my belt.

你有NBA总冠军戒指，这比当年的我酷多了。

You're so much cooler than I was to have an NBA championship ring.

你看看这戒指有多大。

I mean, look at the size of this thing.

简直大得离谱。

It's freaking huge.

这尺寸也太搞笑了吧。

Isn't that it's hilariously large.

真的太大了。

It's so big.

大到连真正的冠军戒指都是双层的——外面这个是装饰，里面还藏着一个小戒指，因为根本戴不了这个巨无霸。

It's so big that the the real ones like that the team got, this opens up and there's a smaller ring inside of it because you can't wear this.

这戒指大到能套住好几根手指。

This is like multiple fingers big.

啊

At

有一点，马特说，哪怕利率很低，你也该把房贷还清。

one point, Matt said you should pay off your mortgage even if you have low interest rates.

不对。

No.

如果你的房贷利率只有2%，那就别听我的。

If you have a 2% mortgage, ignore what I'm saying.

这简直是天上掉下来的馅饼。

That is a gift from God.

那个，那个，那个……不好意思。

Keep That that that that that's sorry.

那不一样。

That's different.

对。

Yes.

这等于白给的钱。

That's free money.

拿着这笔免费的钱吧。

Take the free money.

但从资产负债的角度来看，我同意你的看法。

But, like, balance sheet wise, I think I'm with you.

我觉得本质上还是一回事。

I think it's still the same thing.

假设你有一百万，却只背了五十万、利率2%的房贷，那实际上就跟没房贷没什么区别。

It's like if you have a million bucks and you have a half $1,000,000 mortgage at 2%, you're basically mortgage free.

这太棒了。

That's great.

但我们想说的是，我们的工作风险很高。

But all we're saying is like, you know, our jobs are very risky.

我们的生意风险很大。

Our business is very risky.

我们身边比我们聪明的人，也有不少破产的。

We have a lot of we have people smarter than us that have gone bankrupt.

对吧？

Right?

你可以被踢出董事会，但如果你自己拥有房子，它就像一个稳稳存在的资产，那就要容易多了。

Like, you can get taken off the board, and it's so much easier if you just own own your house just like it's an asset that's just going to be there.

迈克，你提到过你敬佩的那些人。

Mike, you brought up having avatars, people you look up to.

哦，抱歉。

Oh, sorry.

我刚才停了一下，没说完。

I actually pause what I'm saying.

马特，你想说点什么吗？

Matt, what you wanna say something?

是的。

Yeah.

我想听听肖恩，你到底想达到什么目标。

I want Sean, I wanna hear your like, what you're aiming for.

你的目标是什么？

Like, what are your goals?

你这么年轻。

Like, you're a young guy.

肖恩·弗兰克的人生方向到底是什么？

What what is, like, the North Star for Sean Frank?

对。

Yeah.

迈克提到过人生榜样。

And Mike brought up having avatars.

我生活中的榜样是杰里米，我们的好朋友，因为我们会聊到一些人，赚了钱之后就不再工作了。

My avatar in my personal life is Jeremy, our our good friend, because, you know, we talk about we've known people who've gotten rich and then stopped working.

对吧？

Right?

然后就开始喝酒，追女生，最后到了45岁，干的还是22岁时做的事。

And you get after booze a little bit, you get after the ladies a little bit, and then just you end up being 45 doing stuff the 22 year old would do.

对吧？

Right?

杰里米可不是那种人。

Jeremy's not that guy.

杰里米简直疯了。

Jeremy is insane.

他每天可能还在干十四个小时，对着供应商大喊大叫。

Like, he is still probably working fourteen hours a day yelling at suppliers.

他甚至在这期间给我发消息，想跟我聊聊他新想做的Northbeam功能。这人明明已经成功了，却还在拼命干。

He's texting me about, like he called me during this to talk about some sort of new Northbeam feature he wants to talk about, And that's a guy who, by all accounts, has made it, and he's still grinding.

所以，这就是我的榜样。

So, like, that's the avatar for me.

真正的回报，就是做这件事本身。

It's like it's like the reward is doing the job.

不是钱，也不是别的东西。

It is not the money or anything else.

其实就是每天能做这件事本身，就是最大的回报，这真的特别让人受鼓舞。

It's like the reward is, like, you get to do the thing every day, and that is just so inspiring.

所以我现在就想，等我长大了，也要像杰里米那样，这人真是太拼了。

So I trying be like, Jeremy, when I when I grow up, dude, the guy the guy's killing it.

他真是打心底里热爱这份事业。

He's a true love of the game guy.

没错。

He is.

他确实如此。

He's he absolutely is.

我最欣赏杰里米的一点是，说实话，这事儿说不定能变成一场‘致敬杰里米’专场。

My favorite thing that Jeremy does, honestly, and this is, maybe we'll turn this into a Jeremy Love Fest.

他和他妻子经常会一起散步。

Him and his wife, like, go for a walk together.

我正想提这个呢，就是《泰坦》那期里提到的。

I was just about to mention that from the titans episode.

我觉得这简直太酷了。

I'm like, that is, like, the coolest thing.

你看，钱根本不是万能的解决工具。

Like, the you you can do ever that Mike goes back to the whole, money is not a tool to solve all things.

你懂的。

You know?

你得找到那些真正让你兴奋的事儿。

Like, you gotta find the things that that you just like, these these things light you up.

这些事能填满你的能量罐，哪怕再普通也没关系。

They fill the cup, and they can be really mundane.

我有个朋友，真的特别喜欢园艺。

You know, like, got a friend who love like genuinely loves to garden.

他打心底里喜欢。

He loves it.

这可是他的最爱。

That is his jam, man.

他身家两亿五千万美元。

He's worth like $250,000,000.

他本该请个园丁的。

He should have a gardener.

可这家伙偏偏自己撸起袖子，亲手弄土种花。

But that guy is outside hands and dirt doing the thing.

他就是爱这个。

He loves it.

我觉得，真为你高兴，老兄。

I'm like, good for you, man.

这太棒了。

Like, that's that's great.

他压根儿不下厨。

He doesn't cook for shit.

有人专门替他做这些。

Somebody else does that for him.

他喜欢种花种草。

Buddy gardens.

对。

Yeah.

在那档Jeremy Love的节目里，咱们得给Cassandra点个赞，毕竟她能忍受一个整天对供应商大吼大叫的疯子丈夫，真的很不容易。

On that Jeremy Love fest, we have to give Cassandra her flowers because she puts up with a guy who is a maniac, who is who is yelling all the time at their suppliers or whatever.

所以，说真的，那件事里另一个特别让人佩服的地方是，他们夫妻俩携手二十年，一起把生意做得这么大。

So, I mean, the other really inspiring thing about that is, like, it's a husband and wife team who've stayed together for twenty years building a huge business.

这说起来容易，做起来难。

It's, like, easier said than done.

像那些事情，真的挺难的。

Like, those things are very difficult.

所以这就是我们的目标。

So that's that's the goal.

迈克也表达过想接手规模更大的业务。

Mike's also expressed wanting to work on bigger businesses.

我特别喜欢Ridge。

I love Ridge.

我不是Ridge的创始人。

I didn't found Ridge.

对吧？

Right?

Ridge给我的钱，是我这辈子赚过的全部收入。

I I Ridge has paid me all the money I've ever earned in my entire life.

不过，我还是想去搞航天公司。

But, no, I went to build space companies.

他说，这挺酷的。

He's like, that's cool.

所以希望下次能做成这件事。

So I hope to do that next time.

那Mike，你也觉得工作本身就是回报吗？

So are Mike, are you also of this mind with where it's like, the work is the reward?

这有点像艺术家的做事方式。

It's sort of the artist's way.

如果你不喜欢这个过程，那就当不了真正的艺术家。

It's like you can't be an artist if you don't like the process.

我有个普遍的观察：人这一生，往往不是陷在太忙的泥潭里，就是掉进太闲的沟里——要么事情多到压得喘不过气，要么闲得不知道该干点啥。

I would make a generalized observation that you spend your life if if the middle of the road is I have exactly the right amount of things in my life or the amount of time that I have, that we spend our lives either in one ditch or the other where I've got too much on my plate or I have not enough to do with my time.

我注意到，世界上大多数人其实都没多少真正值得花时间的好事可做。

And my generalized observation is that most of the world does not have enough good uses of time to fill their days.

所以人们才会不停刷抖音，说白了就是时间太多，不知道怎么打发。

This is why, like, you know, people doom scroll TikTok because it's just like we've got more time.

我们手里的空闲时间，远远多于能好好利用它的点子。

We've got a surplus of time compared to good ideas of how to use it.

我觉得，人生幸福感很大程度上来自于在这两者之间找到平衡——你一天有多少小时，就有多少真正值得投入的事。

And, like, I actually think one of the things that drives life enjoyment is when you're able to come as close to balanced out on that equation as you possibly can.

当你手头的好事和你的时间刚好匹配，那种状态特别舒服，这也是我特别喜欢做生意的原因：你可以同时参与多个项目，只要安排得当，既能把生活中重要的事都做好，又能投入工作，说干就干。

That, like, the number of good uses you have for your the hours in a day and like that they kinda match, and this is the thing that I think one of the reasons why I love the game of business, is that because the fact that you can be involved in multiple businesses, and there's all these different things you can do that you can, if you're smart about it, you can do all the things in your personal life that you deem to be important and and worthy of your time, and then you can also come in and you can say, okay.

我会让其他所有时间都用在这些真正有意义、高效的事情上，也就是做生意。

I'm gonna balance it out where all my other hours are used in these really good ways, and and productive ways with with business.

但我觉得我和大多数人不一样的地方在于，很多人一开始会想：好吧，生意占了这么多时间，那剩下的时间该怎么塞进其他我觉得重要的事？

And so, but I think the difference for me with most people is I think a lot of people start, and they're like, well, okay, here's all the hours that business takes up, and how do I cram in all the other things that I think are important and what's left?

而我是反过来想：对我来说，最重要的是什么？

Whereas I'm starting to kind of invert it, where I'm like, okay, what are the most important things to me?

那些事根本不是生意，我会先把这些事的时间安排好，然后就像有个罐子，先把大石头放进去，再倒沙子——我把沙子比作我的时间和生意，往那些大石头上面填。

And they're not business, and then I set aside time for all those things, and then I'm like, okay, now kind of the analogy where you've got a jar and you put in the rocks and then you pour in the sand, then and I'm gonna pour the sand in on top of those things, and the sand is is my time and business.

这样一来，我几乎不会有浪费的时光。

And so, like, it makes it where I rarely have a meaningless hour.

对吧？

Right?

我特别喜欢这样。

And I love that.

而且，最重要那些事，也不会因为生意而被挤占。

But also, the things that are most important don't get cannibalized for my business stuff.

因为那些生意上的事根本没那么重要。

Because the business stuff just doesn't matter.

我的意思是，电解质粉跟我的孩子比起来，根本不算什么。

I mean, like, electrolyte packets don't matter compared to my kids.

对吧？

Right?

根本完全不在一个层面上。

They're, like, not even in the same universe.

说来好笑，我这么说的时候我们还笑，但其实很多人真的会犯这种错。

And and, you know, it's funny that I say that, and we laugh at it, but it's like, sadly, like, lots of people make that mistake.

对吧？

Right?

他们把工作和公司看得比孩子还重要。

Where they end up prioritizing their careers with their company over their kids.

你们有没有看过本·萨斯的那些内容？

I mean, have you guys watched any of Ben Sasse's stuff?

他特别棒，上过《60分钟》节目，时长一小时，视频在推特上疯传，真的太精彩了。

So he's great, he did an hour with sixty minutes, it's been going around Twitter and going viral because it's so good.

但他已经到了胰腺癌晚期。

But he's got stage four pancreatic cancer.

他随时可能离世。

He's about to die.

他以前是参议员，后来还当过大学校长。

He was a senator, and then he was president of the university.

天哪。

Oh, shoot.

我合伙人刚跟我提起过这个人。

My business partner was just telling me about this guy.

真是个令人唏嘘的故事。

Crazy story.

是啊。

Yeah.

真是个了不起的人。

Unbelievable guy.

但他们问他，毕竟他生命快到尽头了。

But they were asking him, you know, because he's basically at the end of his life.

他们问他，现在你的生活观有什么变化？

They were asking him, like, now, like, how does your perspective change on your life?

哪些事你希望多做一点，哪些少做一点？

What would you've done more of, less of?

他提到，早年刚入行的时候，自己其实不该到处跑。

And one the things he did is he said, you know, I just would have traveled a lot less when I was early in my career.

我当时做私募股权，出差特别多。

I was in private equity, and I traveled tons.

他说到，每住一家酒店都留一张卡片，回家后就放进一个盒子里。

And he said, kept a card for every hotel that I went to, and I'd I'd keep it in this box when I came home.

前几天我翻出来一看，里面堆了成千上万张卡片。

And I was looking at it the other day, there were just thousands of cards in there.

我就在想，天啊，跟那些对我真正重要的事比起来，这简直是在浪费生命。

And I'm just like, man, what a waste of time compared to the things that were really important to me.

如果我们诚实地面对自己，每个人其实都有类似的经历。

And and I think if we're honest with ourselves, we all have things like that.

有多少次我明明可以关掉电脑，去陪陪孩子，或者跟老婆聊聊她的一天，随便做点什么都行，可我还是不停地刷新 Shopify 的后台，刷个没完。

Like, how many times have I just refreshed the dashboard where I could have just, you know what, logged off and gone and, like, hung out with my kids or had a conversation with my wife about her day or, you know, basically done anything other than just doom refresh on on Shopify.

这几年在圈子里打滚，我慢慢变了，现在开始重新梳理生活，从最根本的原则出发，去安排哪些东西才真正重要。

And this is I I think this is how I'm kinda changing as a person after all the years of being in it is that I'm just starting to reorder my life around what I want to be true about it from first principles.

现在生意给了我这样的自由，这真的太棒了。

And the business is giving me the flexibility to do that, which is awesome.

在我看来，创业能带来的最高回报，就是让你有这个能力去重新安排人生。

To me, that's like the highest possible outcome from starting a business, is that it allows you to do that.

各位创业者，最近怎么样？

What's up, operators?

欢迎收听 Richpanel 的广告插播。

Welcome to the Richpanel ad read.

Richpanel 已经赞助我们超过十二个月了。

Richpanel has been a sponsor for over twelve months.

我作为付费用户也超过一年了。

I've been a paying customer for over twelve months.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

我刚又续费了一年。

I just renewed the pay again for another year.

我们把SaaS的费用砍掉了一半，自动化让每张工单的成本降低了70%。

We have cut our SaaS bill in half, and automation dropped our cost per ticket by 70%.

我们的客户满意度也从88%提升到了96%，这可是行业顶尖水平，而且全都靠Richpanel实现。

Our CSAT has also improved from 88%, which is still really good, to 96%, best in class, all powered by Richpanel.

去年我就跟他们说，嘿，退货这块你们也得这么干，现在Richpanel正好有个退货门户。

I told them last year, Hey, you guys need to do the same thing with returns, and now Richpanel has a returns portal.

它的设计初衷就是减少工单量，还能把更多的退款转化成换货。

It's built to cut down your tickets and convert more refunds into exchanges.

他们负责所有繁重的工作——数据导入、自助服务、客户留存流程、团队培训，全部搞定，两周内就能上线。

They do the heavy lifting, data import, self-service, retention flows, team training, all of it, and it'll be live in two weeks.

如果你想在客服和退货服务上省下30%的费用，赶紧预约个演示吧。

If you wanna save 30% guaranteed on help desk and now returns, book a demo.

听好了。

Look.

我先说第一点。

I I'll I'll give you the first thing.

我正听着迈克讲酒店的名片的事。

I'm I'm listening to Mike here talk about the the hotel business cards.

迈克，我把那些东西叫耻辱徽章。

Mike, I call those badges of dishonor.

我的一直就是航空里程，跟航空公司搞忠诚度计划。

So, like, mine was always air miles, like, loyalty with airlines.

要是哪天我真成了某家航空公司的顶级会员，那肯定是我哪里出大问题了。

Like, if I was if I ever found myself in the position where I was, like, in the absolute top, you know, rewards program of an airline, I really fucked up somewhere.

你知道吧，这种飞行时间，多半是没法和我老婆孩子，或者任何我想陪在身边的人在一起的。

You know, like, that is just time on a plane likely not with my wife and child or with anybody else that I really wanna be around.

所以我尽量避开这些。

So I try to avoid those.

我不确定你们是不是这样，但我这个人特别注重目标，也特别在意哪些事是绝对不做的。

I don't know if you guys are like this, but I'm like a goals and anti goals kinda guy.

我常常会先从‘不想要什么’开始想，因为这些正是我想避开的事。

I find it often easy to, like, start with anti goals because as like, these are the things I don't want.

现在做生意，说实话，我最看重的是和那些我欣赏、价值观一致、有冲劲又聪明的人合作。

For me in business now, honestly, I get so much value out of working with, like, people I like that are, you know, have a shared set of values that are driven and smart.

这种合作真的特别有成就感。

Like, that is so fulfilling.

我简直可以一直这样干下去。

I could kinda just do that forever.

对我来说，这才是真正有意义的工作，Sean。

And to me, that's the like, Sean, that's the the work that matters.

我完全可以一直这样，简单地出现、做下去。

I could just show up and do that for for a very long time.

我觉得钱这东西，其实就是个工具。

I think the money thing is just a tool.

我听过最好的说法是，它就是一个放大器。

It's like, best framing I've ever had for that is it's just an amplifier.

你拥有的越多，它只是把你本来的样子放大得更明显。

Like, the more you get is it just gonna amplify who you already are.

我同意迈克的看法。

I'm with Mike.

我的生活其实没那么复杂。

Like my life is not that complicated.

也不需要多奢华。

And it's not that fancy.

我就喜欢待在户外，骑骑车，跟朋友聚聚，后院里喝点葡萄酒。

Like, I like to be outside and ride bikes and hang out with my friends and drink wine in my backyard.