超级灵魂夏日：大卫·斯坦德尔-拉斯特兄弟：幸福始于感恩

我是奥普拉·温弗瑞。欢迎收听《超级灵魂对话》播客。我相信你能给予自己最珍贵的礼物之一就是时间，花时间去更全然地活在当下。你通往更受启发、与周围更深层世界相连的旅程，此刻就开始了。今天的《超级灵魂对话》嘉宾是91岁的作家、学者兼本笃会修士大卫·斯坦德尔-罗斯特兄弟，他关于感恩的永恒讯息深受全世界爱戴。

I'm Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can give yourself is time, taking time to be more fully present. Your journey to become more inspired and connected to the deeper world around us starts right now. Today on Super Soul Conversations, 91 year old author, scholar, and Benedictine monk, Brother David Steindelrost, is beloved the world over for his enduring message about gratefulness.

这是持久喜悦的真正源泉。今天，斯坦德尔-罗斯特兄弟邀请我们拥抱感恩生活的灵性修习。我知道研究感恩是你毕生的事业，而当今世界正在寻找建立共识的途径，你认为全人类都共同拥有——

It's the true source of lasting joy. Today, brother Steindelrost invites us to embrace the spiritual practice of grateful living. I know the study of gratitude has been your life's work, and as we now in the world are searching for ways to find common ground, You believe that all humans share the same

渴望。那是什么渴望呢？我认为基本上所有人类都会认同——渴望幸福。嗯。渴望幸福，渴望喜悦。

yearning. What is that yearning? The yearning is basically, I think all humans would agree to be happy. Mhmm. To be happy, to be joyful.

我对幸福和喜悦稍作区分，因为我们说想要幸福，但我们想要的是一种持久的幸福。是的。而我们都很清楚幸福无法持久。幸福从来不会持久，也不可能持久。不可能持久。

And I make a little distinction between happy and joyful because we say we want to be happy, but we want to be happy with a happiness that lasts. Yes. And we are well aware that happiness just doesn't last. Happiness never last, cannot last. Cannot last.

所以我们必须找到持久的幸福。那种幸福我称之为喜悦。我们能够找到它，因为即使在不幸之中，我们也能发现那份喜悦。

So we have to find the happiness that lasts. And that happiness I call joy. And we can find that because we can find that joy even in the midst of unhappiness.

是的。那么对你而言，感恩是一种修习吗？

Yes. So for you, is gratefulness a practice?

是的。这非常——

Yes. That's very as

一种存在方式。

a way of being.

是一种存在方式。没错。但修习就是你的存在方式。是的。这是一种生活方式。

It's a a way of being. Yeah. But the practice is your way of being. Yes. It's a way of living.

因此最近我较少谈论感恩，更多谈论感恩地生活。因为当你说感恩时，人们常想‘哦，当好事发生时我当然会感恩’。但感恩地生活意味着无论发生什么，在任何时刻都保持感恩。这意味着在任何时刻——包括身处苦难时——都能收获来自感恩的喜悦。

That's why lately I talk less about gratitude, but more about grateful living. Because when you speak about gratitude, people often think, oh yeah, when something nice happens then of course I'm grateful. But grateful living is to be grateful at all times, at all times, no matter what happens. And that means reaping the joy that comes from gratefulness at all times, also in the midst of suffering.

那么你认为感恩生活的本质是什么？如果我想在生活中更加感恩，而我——

And so what do you think the essence of grateful living is? If I wanna live more gratefully in my life, which I'm

告诉你必须问自己，你真正感激的是什么？在这里，重要的是要意识到你不一定对当下发生的事情心存感激。因为它可能是你无法感恩的事。比如你得知最亲爱的朋友刚刚去世的消息。对吧。

telling You have to ask, what are you really grateful for? And there, it's important to realize you're not grateful for what happens at this moment necessarily. Because it may be something for which you cannot be grateful. If you get news that your dearest friend has just died. Right.

没错。如果新闻里充斥着压迫、剥削、苦难和暴力，你无法对这些心存感激。但在每一刻，生活都给予你机会去应对它提供的一切。因此，感恩生活意味着学会时刻把握住那个机会。是的。

Right. If there are many or if you're just faced on the news with oppression and exploitation and misery and violence, you can't be grateful for that. But at every moment, life gives you the opportunity to do something with what life gives you. And therefore, grateful living means learning to avail yourself moment by moment of that opportunity. Yes.

大多数时候，那是个享受的机会。是的。人们真的需要帮助才能意识到这点。99%的时间里我们都能享受——能呼吸，有眼睛看、有耳朵听。是啊。

And that most of the time it's the opportunity to enjoy. Yes. And one really has to help people realize that. There's 99% of the time we could enjoy that we can breathe, enjoy that we have eyes and ears to hear. Yeah.

一切，所有的一切。

Everything, everything.

而不是等到你失去视力，或需要靠机器呼吸，或患上某种疾病后才开始珍惜你所拥有的——

And not wait until you have to lose your sight, or have to breathe through a machine, or have some kind of disease before you can appreciate the fact that you have

正是如此。你有双腿——通常只有在骨折或行动不便时才意识到。不。在艰难时刻才明白。但那正是享受。那是享受的机会。

Exactly. All the That you have legs, you know this when you break a leg, or when you have some difficult No. At the hard times. But that is enjoyment. That is the opportunity to enjoy.

所以你能想象，在我们国家乃至全世界，颠覆正以史无前例的速度发生。读到《感恩：祈祷之心》中你将一切视为机遇的观点让我非常欣喜，因为我一直在深入思考我们的处境。我认为此刻对我们的文化、世界和社会而言，正是召唤每个人把握这一机遇的时刻。

So you can imagine that in our country, as well as all over the world actually, disruption is occurring at a rate that we have never seen. I was so happy to read in Gratefulness, The Heart of Prayer, how you see everything as an opportunity because I've been thinking deeply about our situation. And I think this moment in our culture, in our world, in our society is a moment that calls for each of us to step into this opportunity.

完全正确。那是个与享受截然不同的机遇——

Absolutely. And that is quite a different opportunity from enjoying

是的。

things. Yes.

是的。但它也是一份礼物，一份伟大的礼物，在这个时代、这个地方——也就是当今整个世界——一切都被撕裂，一切都被撕裂的情况下。

Yes. But it is also a gift and a great gift that in a a time and in a place is the whole world today where everything is torn and everything Torn is

而且破碎。破碎的。是的。分歧。

and broken. Broken. Yeah. Dissension.

我们有机会比前人更进一步地拓展自己，去理解彼此，倾听彼此。

We have the opportunity to stretch even further than people had to stretch themselves before to understand one another, to listen to one another.

是的。达成一个共同的希望。我很喜欢你定义希望的方式。你愿意和大家分享一下吗？

Yeah. To come to to a common hope. And I love how you define hope. Would you would you share this with

我认为希望与我们个人的期望截然不同。这一点非常重要。希望总是基于我们能够想象的事物。对吧？你无法希望那些你无法想象的东西。

our I with our I think hope is something very different from our hopes. I think that's so important. The are always something that we can imagine. Right. You can't hope for it unless you can imagine it.

但从真正的精神层面来说，希望是对惊喜的开放态度，对那些你无法...

But hope, in this truly spiritual sense, is openness for surprise, For that which you cannot with

大写H的希望。没错。就是保持开放。是的。

the capital h That's right. Is being open to Yes.

并敞开心扉迎接那个惊喜

And to open your heart for that surprise

而不是对你想象、想要或渴望的具体事物的希望。是的。

As opposed to the hope for the thing that you imagine or you want or you're wishing Yes.

如果你信任生活，它会给你惊喜，并永远赐予你美好的事物。

If you trust life, it will surprise you and it will always give you good things.

好的，我们就从这里开始。因为我认为你刚才说的正是关键所在，那是开启成功人生之门的钥匙。那就是信任生活。

Okay. So let's start right there. Because I think that what you just said is the key, is the that unlocks the path to a successful life. And that is trust life.

这是起点。

That is the beginning.

这是起点，对吧？这不就是基础吗？

That is the beginning. Right? Isn't that the foundation?

这是一切的基础。

That's the foundation of everything.

而这最终就是信仰的本质，不是吗？

And that's what ultimately faith is. Is it not?

我们可以保留这份信任，也可以给予它。如果我们选择保留，或许能暂时尝试，但一切都会出问题。

We can withhold that trust or we can give it. And if we withhold it, we can try it for a little while, but everything goes wrong.

当人们觉得生活对自己不公时，该如何学会不保留信任？当你真心认为生活非常不公时，该如何培养、保持并维系信仰？

How can people learn to not withhold it when you feel like life has given you an unfair shot? How can you develop faith, maintain, sustain faith, when you really think life has been really unfair?

是的。我也常不假思索地说'当然要信任生活'，但我会非常谨慎。可这是唯一能说的话。你问如何证明生活值得信任？如果你足够了解这个人，能真正交心，这也是必要的。

Yeah. I too quickly say, well, yes, you should trust in life, and you I would be very careful. But it's the only thing that you can say. And you ask how can I prove that life is worth trusting? If you know the person well enough and can really speak from heart to heart, that's also necessary.

但你可以让他们回顾人生。他们会发现，即使最糟糕的经历最终也成了生命的馈赠。回望过去，你会看到那些看似可怕的灾难时刻。嗯。而如今，正是通过这些灾难——甚至正因为它们——你才走到了今天。

But you can make them look back on their life. And they will see that even the worst things that happened to them turned out to be life giving. If you look back on your life, you see situations and times when everything seemed to be just terrible, terrible catastrophe. Mhmm. And now, out of this catastrophe, in spite of it even so, even because of it, you got where you are.

这多么鼓舞人心。但多数时候，就像看后视镜那样，嗯，你只有回头看才能发现。而向前看时，你是看不见的。

And that is so encouraging. But you see mostly when you look in the rear mirror, so to say. Mhmm. You see it looking back. And when you look forward, you can't see it.

否则，你也不会陷入这般困境。没错。

Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the difficult situation. Correct.

但我认为，还要培养对生活的信任，即使艰难时刻来临，你也知道自己能挺过去。

But I think also, developing a trust in life, even when the hard times come, you know you'll get through it.

关键就在这里。因为你过去有过经历，回顾往昔时能看清这一点。嗯。但展望未来时却无法预见，正是这点让人倍感艰难。

That is the point. Because you have experience in the past, and you can see it when you look at the past. Mhmm. But when you look at the future, you can't see it. That's what makes it so difficult.

这时你就需要那种信任——即便看不见，我也相信生活会赐予我美好的事物。

And then you need that trust. Even though I don't see it, I trust that life will give me good things.

是的。那么如何成为一个活得更有生命力的人呢？

Yes. So how do you come to be a human being who lives more alive?

首先你得停下脚步，因为我们大多数人都在生活的快车道上疾驰。无论愿意与否，如今的生活节奏太快了。我们被推着匆忙前行，以致错过了那些机遇，明白吗？生活每分每秒都在给予我们机会。所以必须停下来，进入当下此刻。

Well, first you have to stop because we are in such a fast lane in life, most of us. Whether we want it or not, life is so fast these days. So we are really rushed along and we don't see the opportunity, see. Life offers us moment by moment opportunity. So have to stop and get into the present moment.

我们共同的朋友艾卡特奥就深谙此道。没错。他真正教会人们：你必须停留足够久才能临在当下。然后你才能倾听、观察、必要时嗅闻，诸如此类。

Our shared friend Ekatole. Yes. He has really taught people that. You have to stop long enough to be present. And then you can listen, look, smell if necessary, whatever.

此刻生活赋予我的机遇是什么？接着就是去发现并抓住它，为之采取行动。当愉悦时刻来临时，就真切地享受那个瞬间。不要只是说句'花真美'就转向别处。

What is now the opportunity that life offers me at this moment? And then, that is to look and then go and grab it. Do something with it. When it comes to enjoyment, enjoy the moment really. Don't just say nice flowers and go on to something else.

而是凝视那些花朵，让它们打动你。是的。所以停下、观察、行动——这三个必要步骤需要不断重复，才能真正活出生命力。这其实正是我们渴望的幸福：在身体层面、心理层面都全然活着。

But look at the flowers, let them impress you. Yeah. So stop, look, go. Those are the three necessary steps that have to be repeated over and over to really come alive. That is really the happiness that we are long for, to be alive on all levels, on the physical level, on mental lever Right.

情感层面，以及精神层面。

Emotional lever, and on the spiritual lever.

没错。我知道你相信感恩能激发革命，因为你在TED演讲中说过，感恩能以极其重要的方式改变我们的世界。因为如果你心怀感恩，你就不会恐惧；如果你不恐惧，就不会使用暴力。如果你感恩，你的行为会出于满足感而非匮乏感，并且你会愿意分享。

Right. I know you believe that gratitude can inspire a revolution because during your TED talk, you said gratitude can change our world in immensely important ways. Because if you're grateful, you're not fearful. And if you're not fearful, you're not violent. If you're grateful, you act out of a sense of enough and not of a sense of scarcity, and you are willing to share.

既然我们生活在权力金字塔下已有数百年之久，你认为感恩能激发革命吗？

Since we've lived under the power pyramid for so many hundreds of years, can you think being grateful inspire revolution?

嗯，权力金字塔之所以具有如此破坏性的原因...是的。

Well, the reason why the power pyramid is so destructive Yeah.

请告诉我们你所说的权力金字塔是什么意思。

Tell us what you mean by the power pyramid.

是的。它是我们赋予社会生活的一种形式——当我们心存恐惧时的社会形态。这是人生的两种可能性：要么信任生活，要么恐惧生活。恐惧使人暴力，而暴力的根源正是恐惧。

Yes. It is the social life, the form that we give our social life if we are fearful. And those are the two possibilities to life. Either to trust life or to be fearful of life. Fearfulness makes you violent and the root of violence is fearfulness.

是的，完全正确。

Yes, absolutely.

这种恐惧构建了金字塔，因为位置稍高者害怕别人会取代自己，于是用暴力压迫他人。压迫已然存在，于是那些...

And then this fear builds this pyramid because the one that is a little higher up than the others is fearful that somebody else might get there, and so uses violence to oppress the others. There's already oppression. Then those So

我们看到世界各地的恐怖分子，看到施加于人们身上的暴力行为，那些人这样做都是因为恐惧。

we see the terrorists throughout the world, the violence being enacted upon people throughout the world, all those people are doing that because they're afraid.

正是如此。他们彼此恐惧，害怕对方会占据上风。于是产生了竞争与敌对，继而滋生贪婪——因为人们认为资源不足。这又回到了恐惧。

Exactly. And they are afraid of one another, that the other one would get the head Yeah. So you get competition and rivalry. And then you get greed because people think, oh, there's not enough. Again, fear.

恐惧资源不足。如果你恐惧匮乏，就会想为自己攫取尽可能多。没错。完全相反的是当你信任生活时——那时你将无所畏惧，取而代之的是非暴力与和平。

Fear that there's not enough. And if you fear that there's not enough, you want to get as much as possible for yourself. Correct. Exactly the opposite is when you trust life because then you are not fearful. Instead of violence, nonviolence, peace.

这正是我们所有人都向往的世界。一个和平、合作与共享的世界。

That is exactly the world all of us want. The world of peace, of cooperation, and of sharing.

我读到一段让我印象深刻的话，你说在这个我们都感到分裂、难以达成共识的时代，或许正给予我们一个去爱敌人的机会。正是如此。

Something I read that struck me, where you were saying, this time that we're all living in now where everybody feels so divided and can't agree, that this time may be offering us the opportunity to love our enemies. Exactly.

而那个

And that

是多么超前的概念啊。

is What a concept.

这正是我们今天必须学会的。对。而且我特别强调他们依然是敌人这一点——因为如果他们突然变成朋友，你爱的就是朋友而非敌人。他们仍是你的敌人，但你却爱着他们。

That's what we have to learn today. Yeah. And and I put the emphasis on the fact that it remains the enemy because if suddenly they became your friends, you would love your friends but not your enemies. They remain your enemies but you love them.

这怎么可能做到呢？

Now How is that possible?

首先，你得明确爱的定义。是的。如果要给各种爱一个通用的解释——毕竟爱有太多种类了。

Well, first of all, you have to say what do you mean by love. Yes. And the one definition, if you want, sort of working definition of any kind of love. There's so many kinds of love. Yeah.

对伴侣的爱，对朋友的爱，对动物的爱，对国家的爱。它们的共同点在于：我说'是的，我们属于一体'。是对归属的肯定。爱是用整个生命践行的归属宣言，不仅是言语的表白，更是存在的确证。

Love of your spouse, love of your friend, love of your animals, love of your country. What all of them have together is I say, yes, we belong together. Yes to belonging. Love is a yes to belonging that is not only said with your mouth, but with your whole being. A lived yes to belonging.

存在主义的

Existential

这个定义太棒了。爱是用生命践行的归属宣言。所以我理解你的意思是：你可以爱敌人，通过承认他们同样拥有归属的权利来爱他们。

That's a great definition. Love is a lived yes to belonging. So what I hear you saying is that you can love your enemies, love them by understanding they have as much right to belong.

我们属于彼此。我们本应如此，正如你

We belong together. We belong As you

所言。是的。但这并不意味着你必须认同他们。不。因为如果你要爱你的敌人，他们必须仍然是你的敌人。

do. Yes. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them. No. Because if you're gonna love your enemies, they have to remain your enemies.

对吧？

Right?

爱敌人的一个方面是倾听他们。你要听他们在说什么。是的。然后你可能会想，也许他们是对的。那一刻你必须思考，或许正确的一方是他们而非我。

One of the aspects of loving your enemies is that you listen to them. You listen what are they saying. Yes. And then you say, maybe they are right. For a moment you must think maybe they are right and not I.

于是你将自身观点与对方观点进行对照。没错。这已是向前迈进的一步。然后你们共同审视问题本质。这才是关键所在。

So you check what your opinion is against their opinion. Right. That's already a step forward. Then you look at the at the issue. That is would be the real thing.

让我们共同审视问题，而非固守成见。也就是说，你要引导敌人关注问题本身，而非他们的立场。

Let's together look at the issue and not have our preconceived notions. So you're trying to get your enemies to look at the issues, not at their position.

那我们能在何处找到共同点呢？

And where can we find some common ground?

何处能找到共同点？是的。但这同时也意味着——用引号强调的'敌人'，因为通常说到敌人就联想到仇恨。不，这些是你所爱的敌人，在某些情况下你必须全力阻止他们的企图。如果有人主张破坏环境，砍伐雨林，嗯...

Where can we find common ground? Yeah. And but it also means that in those aspects in which your enemies say it's quotation marks because usually when you say enemies you think you hate them. No, the enemies whom you love, in some cases you have to do everything to thwart their purpose. If somebody, stands for destruction of the environment, cuts down the rainforest Mhmm.

他们就是我的敌人。我别无选择。他们是我的敌人。我将竭尽所能保护动物。但你还会爱他们吗？

They are my enemies. I can't help it. They are my enemies. And I will do everything possible to protect the animals. But will you still love them?

我依然会爱他们，因为我们本属于一体。

I will still love them because we belong together.

你相信每个来到这世上的人都有使命吗？

Do you believe that every person who comes into the world has a calling?

当然。但很难意识到这一点。我认为每个人都有使命。说到生命，那是我们人类所面对的宏大奥秘。生命

Absolutely. But it's difficult to become aware of it. I think everybody has a calling. Speak of life, it's that great mystery that that we confront as human beings. Life

而宏大奥秘是你用来指代上帝的另一个词。为了那个，为了生命。

And great mystery is another word you use for God. For that, for life.

生命源自奥秘。如果你确信自己正确使用了上帝这个词，你甚至可以称它为上帝。但存在太多误解了。所以我称它为生命。每个人都明白我们的意思。

Life from mystery. And if you assure that you are using the word God correctly, you could even call it God. But there are so many misunderstandings. So I call it life. Everybody knows what we mean by that.

这非常神秘。你无法分析它，无法抓住它，但如果你投身其中，让它掌握你，你就能理解它。生命给予你的东西与任何人都截然不同。历史上从未有过与你完全相同的另一个人。相同的祖先，相同的时代背景，这些都造就了巨大差异。所有这些让你成为非常非常独特的存在。而这种独特性就是你的使命——充分活出它。

It's very mysterious. You cannot analyze it, you cannot grasp it, but you can understand it if you give yourself to it, you let it take hold of And life offers you things very different from any other person. There has never been another person that had exactly human Whether same ancestors, same One at this time in history that makes a great difference. And all these things make you you're very, very unique. And this uniqueness is your calling, to live it to the full.

那种独特性。就像我们被赋予的角色。明白吗？当我说我们都彼此相连时，那就是我们的本真。

That uniqueness. It's like a role that we are given. You see? When I say we all belong together, that is our self. That

是的。所以我们所有人真正的使命，就是每个人作为个体必须活出那个使命。完全正确。作为人类，去释放。表达无论那是什么。正是如此。

is Yes. So the real calling for all of us is this calling that each of us as an individual has to come alive Exactly. As a human being That expel. Express whatever that is. Exactly.

没错。人们渴望在自己的独特性中活过来，并能够表达那种独特性。是的。有个...那就是奥秘，奥秘通过他们以那种独特形式表达自身。

Yeah. People want to come alive in their uniqueness and to be able to express what that is. Yeah. There's a Which is the mystery the mystery expressing itself through them. In that unique form that

前所未有地。对。对。犹太教神秘主义传统中有个美丽的故事：一位大师祈祷'上帝啊，让我像亚伯拉罕一样'，天上传来声音说'我已经有一个亚伯拉罕了'。

As never before. Yeah. Yeah. There is a a beautiful story from the mystical tradition in Judaism, where one great master prays, Oh God, make me like Abraham. And the voice comes from heaven and says, I've already got one Abraham.

我要的是你。这就是你的独特性。

I want you. It's your uniqueness.

没错。确实如此。我很感谢你提到‘灵性’这个词已被滥用至此，以至于我完全乐意彻底弃用它，宣布暂停使用‘灵性’一词，转而始终使用‘常识’这个术语。因为在当代语境中，后者更能准确表达。这很合理。

That's right. That's right. I appreciate you saying that the term spirit has been so misused that I would be perfectly happy to drop it completely, declare a moratorium on the word spirit, and use always the term common sense. Because in contemporary parlance, that says it much better. It makes sense.

它通过感官与身体相连。当我读到——我觉得这个观点非常精辟。

It's connected with the body through the senses. I think that I thought that was brilliant when I

读到——哦天哪，你喜欢这个说法。

read Oh, god, you like that.

是的。因为我认为‘灵性’这个词对人们来说太容易混淆，如果我们开始使用‘常识’——

Yes. Because I think the word spirit is so confusing for people, that if we start using it's the common

常识。就是常识。这是常识。很合理。它与感官有关，与我们所有的感官相连，而且是所有人共通的。

Sense. Common sense. It's a common sense. Makes sense. It has to do with the senses, with all our senses, and it is common to all.

它最终会让我们意识到我们本是一体。

And it leads to awareness that we are all one.

所以你的个人经历最让我着迷之处在于，你通往感恩的道路其实始于青少年时期，在纳粹占领下的奥地利，你亲眼目睹了希特勒权力的恐怖。你曾身处最黑暗的深渊。你是如何在战争环境中培养感恩之心的？

So this is what's so fascinating to me about your life story, is that your own path to gratefulness actually started as a teenager growing up in Nazi occupied Austria, where you witnessed the horrors of Hitler's power. So you have been in that space where it is as bad as you can get. And how did you cultivate a practice of gratitude in the midst of war?

当一切都不确定时，当炸弹在四面八方倾泻而下，你甚至无法确定自己的房子是否——

When, everything is so uncertain and when the bombs are pouring left and right and you don't even know whether your house is by no means, whether your house is

会——是啊。很多时候炸弹爆炸后，你还活着反而成了惊喜。

gonna Yeah. There were many times where the bombs would go and you were surprised that you were still alive.

对。确实。很多很多次。当你这样生活时——

Yes. Right. Many, many times. And when you live in that way

那么你被允许留在自己家里吗？你从未被带去过集中营。

So were you allowed to stay in your home? You were never taken off to a camp.

我当时在德国军队服役，但我们不在集中营里。我们必须活在当下，活在如厕般的紧迫时刻中。当你活在当下时，你就全神贯注在那里。这就是停顿带给你的境界。然后你才能观察，才能行动，从那个瞬间继续前行。

I was in the army, in the German army, but we were not in camps. We had to live in the present moment, the toilet moment. And when you live in the present moment, you are all there. That's where the stop brings you. And then you can look and you can do, go from that moment.

我能...我能想象你只能专注于眼前，因为担忧一小时后的命运实在太沉重了？

I can I can I can imagine that the only thing you can do is focus on right now because it's too much to try to worry about what's gonna happen an hour from now?

你完全无法理解。我也完全无法理解。我记得有个场景，老师布置作业时说'这是下周四要交的'，结果全班哄堂大笑。下周四？谁知道下周四会怎样？

You have not the slightest idea. I have not the slightest idea. I remember a situation in which one of our teachers gave us a homework and he said, this is for next Thursday. And the whole class burst out laughing. Next Thursday, who knows what's next Thursday?

天啊。我知道。我读到过你甚至没指望能活到20岁。完全没想过。你不认为自己能活过20岁，而现在你91岁了。

Wow. I know. I read that you didn't even know you never expected to live to 20. Absolutely not. You didn't expect to make it to 20, and here you are 91.

是啊。

Yeah.

真了不起。能分享一下你从'时刻直面死亡'中学到的感恩课题吗？这个观念是从何而来的？

Wow. Will you share the lesson in gratitude you learned from keeping death before your eyes and where you got that at all times?

就像我刚才描述的，当炸弹在四周倾泻，生命随时受到威胁时，你不得不活在当下。这种临在的状态，正是生命喜悦的源泉。我在圣本笃会规这本小册子里读到这句话——这本指导本笃会修士修行了一千五百年的戒律。我们读它纯粹是为了气恼纳粹老师，我们知道他们最厌恶这类读物。

Well, what I just described, the situation in which you have to live in the present moment because the bombs are pouring left and right and in every other way your life is in danger. This living in the present moment, that is, what gives you joy in life. As I read this sentence in a little book called The Rule of St. Benedict, that is the rule according to which the Benedictine monks lived for fifteen hundred years now. And we read it only because we wanted to do something spiteful against our Nazi teachers and we knew they didn't want to read that sort of thing.

那句'时刻将死亡置于眼前'深深震撼了我。战争结束后，这句话又浮现在我脑海，我突然明白：正是因为我们直面死亡，被迫活在当下，才活得如此酣畅淋漓。我们的青春无比美好，即便充满苦难，我也不愿用它与任何东西交换。由于是在圣本笃会规里读到的，我一度考虑过成为本笃会修士——虽然这个念头让我十分抗拒。

And that sentence to have death at all times before your eyes, that stuck me deeply and then when the war was over, it came back to my mind and I thought, well that's why we were so joyful, you know, because we had death before our eyes, we had to live in the present moment, That's we had a wonderful youth. I wouldn't want to trade it against anything with all the hardship. And that because I had read it in the hood of St. Benedict, I thought well, probably I should become a Benedictine monk. But I didn't like the idea at all.

我逃避这个念头逃避了很多年。真的吗？是啊。

I was running away from it for many years. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

那么你最终是如何成为本笃会修士的呢？

So how did you finally become a Benedictine monk?

首先，我开始学习各种东西，寻找任何我能找到的借口。比如学这个，又必须完成那个。先学了艺术，然后学了心理学，后来甚至从欧洲去了美国。要知道，去美国可不是为了当修士。不，你是在逃避。

Well, first of all, I started studying anything, finding any alibi that I could find. So studying this and I have to finish that. Studied art and then I studied psychology and then I even went to The United States from Europe. So you don't go to The United States in order to become a monk. No, you You're getting away from.

后来我告诉一个朋友，如果生活在中世纪，我肯定会加入本笃会，但我渴望那种原始精神。朋友听后说：真巧，我刚读到他们在纽约埃尔迈拉新建了一座修道院，旨在改革本笃会生活方式，希望回归教规最初的热情。就是它了。我去了那里，立刻明白这就是我的归宿。

And then I told a friend, you know, if I had lived in the Middle Ages, I would have joined the Benedictines, but I want that original spirit. And I told this to a friend and he said, oh, that's funny. I just read that they started a monastery in Elmira, New York, and it's supposed to be a reform, of the Benedictine life and they want to come back to the original fervor of the rule. And that was it. I went there, and I knew that was it.

一见钟情的感觉，再来一次我也会这么选。

Love at first sight, and I would do it again.

你最初加入时多大年纪？

So how old were you when you first joined?

26岁。

I was 26.

本笃会修士的日常生活是怎样的？

So what's the life of a Benedictine monk like?

我们主要有三类活动。其一是唱诗班，我们每天在唱诗班祈祷七次。时间会根据情况调整，但基本在日出、正午、日落及其间时段进行，这就是所谓的日课。

Well, we do basically three activities, kinds of activities. The one is we have a choir. We we pray in choir, and we pray seven times a day. Sometimes that's adjusted and so, but basically at sunrise, at noon, at sunset, and in between at those hours. So we have what we call the hours of the day.

我们聚在一起咏唱，如今很多人都喜欢这种咏唱。

We come together, we chant. Many people nowadays like this chant.

对，就是那种咏唱。没错。

Like the chanting. Yes. Yes.

他们能感受到。是的。我们诵经。我们一起祈祷，一起诵经。这是我们的活动之一。

They feel that. Yes. We chant. We pray together, we chant. That is one of our activities.

另一项活动是研读或冥想经文，同时也涉猎其他各类事物。第三项活动是用双手劳作。所以每个人每天都会花部分时间动手工作，这能让你脚踏实地。这是本笃会特有的方式。而在我这个年纪，我最喜欢的工作——现在也做不了太多其他事了——就是洗碗。

The other one is that we study or meditate on scripture but also on all sorts of other things. And the third activity is working with your hands. So everybody works with their hands part of the time, part of the day, that keeps you down to earth. That's typically Benedictine. And my favorite work, now at my age, there isn't much else I can do, is washing the dishes.

用你的双手。但这同样是实践'停、看、行'的美妙方式。你能感受到洗碗布的质地，感受到温水和冷冽的冲洗水流，你觉察到这些，开始真正感知它们。这就是喜悦所在。多数人不喜欢洗碗，但这可以成为与生命真正的交流。

With your hands. But that is also wonderful way of stop, look, go. You feel the dish cloth, you feel the warm water and the cold rinsing water, You're aware of it, you become aware of it. That is the joy. Most people don't like washing dishes, but it can be a real communication with life.

这甚至可以作为通往感恩生活的入口——问问自己：我最讨厌做什么？对，就从这件事开始。然后在其中寻找机会，在那件你至今厌恶的事情里，现在去发现它能给予你什么机遇？

That would even be an entrance to living a life of grateful living by asking yourself, what do I hate to do? Yes. Start with that. And then find the opportunity in it, in that thing that you now up to now you hated it, now you find and what does this what opportunity does it give you?

嗯。我觉得现在很多人都被愤怒压得喘不过气。我们该如何将愤怒转化为更积极的力量？

Mhmm. I think so many people are feeling overwhelmed by their anger today. How can we transform that anger into something more positive?

愤怒，其实我对愤怒持相当积极的看法。你呢？愤怒能给你巨大能量。所以愤怒本身，那种能量爆发是非常积极的。因此，如果你还活着，就该拍拍自己的肩膀。

Anger, I actually have a rather positive view of anger. Do you? Anger gives you a lot of energy. So the anger in it self, that burst of energy is something very positive. So, pat yourself on the shoulder if you are alive.

如果你要让

If if you're gonna let

它激励你采取行动。

it motivate you to do something.

但现在关键在于，它该如何激励你？是的。它应该通过视他人为平等来激励我们。我们本是一体。但愤怒本身那股能量，让我们善加利用它。

But now it comes to point, how should it motivate you? Yeah. And it should motivate you in us by looking at the others as your equals. We belong together. But the anger itself, that burst of energy, let's use it.

让我们积极地利用它。积极意味着牢记我们同属一体。这是我们的世界。这是唯一的世界。

Let's use it positively. And positively means by remembering we belong together. This is our world. This is one world.

我明白。错误的观念在于人们认为某些群体有权在此立足，而其他群体则不然。这正是我们走入歧途之处。你认为通往更美好世界的途径之一，是铭记圣经中最广为流传的诫命之一，那就是

I know. The faulty thinking is people believing that certain groups have a right to be here and others do not. That's where we've gone wrong. And you believe that one way toward a better world is to remember one of the most popular commands in the bible, which is

不要惧怕。不要惧怕。这才是关键。不要惧怕。

Fear not. Fear not. That is the main thing. Fear not.

我知道。你还说过这句话在圣经里出现了365次。

I know. And you said that it's in the bible 365 times.

一年中的每一天都对应一次。

One for every day of the year.

我觉得这不是巧合。对吧？

I don't think that's an accident. Right?

我没亲自数过，但我读到过。所以我深信不疑。这对一年中的每一天都大有裨益。不要惧怕。不要惧怕。

Didn't count it, but I read it. So I believe it. It's very good for every day of the year. Fear not. Fear not.

这才是根本。因为它与权力金字塔截然相反。恐惧滋生暴力，恐惧催生贪婪，恐惧引发竞争，所有这些恶果。而对生命的信任，则孕育合作、和平与分享。这正是当今世界所需的。

That is the main thing. Because it's the opposite of the power pyramid. Out of fear, violence out of fear, greed out of fear, rivalry, all these bad things. And out of trust in life, comes cooperation, peace, sharing. What we need today.

但我们必须

But we have to be

最终是那份爱，那份说着'我愿意'的爱。

And ultimately that love, that love that says yes.

归属感。我们所有人都...我们生活在一个资源有限的星球上，不可能在有限的环境中实现无限增长。

To belonging. We all And belong we live on a limited planet, and we cannot have unlimited growth on a limited planet.

那么，在90岁高龄时，即将迈入91岁的你，还有什么能让你感到惊喜？

So at 90 years old, what's 91, what still surprises you?

还有什么能让我惊喜？每一天的每件事都让我惊喜。所有事物。我得列举所有东西。比如我能坐在这里与你进行这场对话。

What still surprises me? Everything, every day. Everything. I would have to list everything. That I can sit here and have this conversation with you.

这是多么珍贵的馈赠。一个惊喜。你知道吗？我从未预料到。太美妙了。

What a gift that is. A surprise. You know? I never expected it. Wonderful.

对此我深怀感激。但每件事都充满惊喜。

Very grateful for it. But everything is surprising.

我想用你即将出版的新书《我即是你》中的一段话作为结尾。你写道：'日复一日，我愈发清晰地认识到。感恩是对爱的颂扬，正如爱是对欢欣共属的鲜活肯定。感恩以喜悦的肯定，在万物互联的伟大网络每个节点上礼赞生命。当我们以愈发坚定的信念活出这份肯定，爱就会在生命的秋阳中愈发丰盈成熟。'

So, I wanna end with a passage from your forthcoming book, I am through you, so I. You write, daily it becomes clearer to me. Gratitude is a celebration of love just as love is the lived yes of joyful mutual belonging. Gratitude celebrates life with a joyful yes at every knot of the great network in which everything is connected to everything. As we live this yes with ever more conviction, love ripens ever more abundantly in the autumn sun of life.

如今我将此视为自己的主要使命——任由这一切自然发生，因为我们并非死于死亡，而是死于完全成熟的爱。哇。我想只有本笃会修士才能悟出这样的道理。非常感谢。感谢这次机会。谢谢

I now see it as my main task to simply allow this to happen since we do not die from death, but from fully ripened love. Wow. I guess you gotta be a Benedictine monk to come up with that. Thank you so Thank you for this opportunity. Thank you

感谢这次机会。

for this opportunity.

我是奥普拉·温弗瑞，您正在收听的是《超级灵魂对话》播客。您可以在Instagram、Twitter和Facebook上关注超级灵魂。如果尚未订阅，请前往苹果播客订阅、评分并评论本节目。下周请继续收听另一期《超级灵魂对话》。感谢您的聆听。

I'm Oprah Winfrey, and you've been listening to Super Soul Conversations, the podcast. You can follow Super Soul on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. Join me next week for another Super Soul conversation. Thank you for listening.