Henna Pryor谈如何擅长应对尴尬 | 第701期

她坦然接受了这件事。

She owned it.

她重新掌握了主动权，因为她直面那个局面并坦然接受。

She took the power back because she took that situation and owned it.

类似其他场合中，她总能迅速察觉现场氛围并主动掌控局面。

Similar in other situations, she's just very quick about taking the thing in the room and taking ownership of it.

我们都能做到这样。

We can all do that.

讽刺的是，越是回避尴尬，尴尬反而会加剧。

Ironically, avoiding the awkwardness increases the awkwardness.

这是关于这种情绪最反直觉的真相。

It's the most counterintuitive truth about this emotion.

当出现尴尬时刻，所有人都眼神飘忽、沉默不语时，那种紧张感会愈发强烈。

When there's an awkward moment that occurs and all of us are just doing the eyes darting sideways and no one's saying anything, that tension thickens.

只需要有个人站出来说：哎呀，好吧。

And all it takes is that one person to say, oof, okay.

刚才真尴尬。

That was awkward.

那太让人难堪了。

That was embarrassing.

让我们翻篇继续前进吧。

Let's flush that and move on.

我们会看着那个人说：这就是自信的人。

We look at that person and say, that's the confident person.

那个直面问题、化解尴尬、掌控局面的人，就是自信的人。

The person who named it, who diffused it, who owned it, that's the confident person.

这种能力我们都可以培养，习惯在这种时刻说出类似的话，别人对你自信的印象就会飙升。

And so that is a muscle that any of us can build, the ability to get used to saying things like that in those moments, and the perception of confidence shoots up.

所以有位表现心理学家，你可能认识他，博士。

So there's this performance psychologist, you may know him, might've been on a stage with him, Doctor.

迈克尔总是提到FOPO，即对他人意见的恐惧。

Michael Gervais, and Michael always talks about FOPO, fear of other people's opinions.

是的。

Yes.

当我想到FOPO（他人意见恐惧症）时，我认为它与尴尬感以及我们许多人内心隐藏的自我怀疑直接相关。

And when I think about FOPO, I think there's a direct correlation with awkwardness and also the hidden doubt that so many of us fear.

对此你有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on that?

我非常欣赏迈克尔·格瓦伊斯关于FOPO的研究，这个术语如此精炼有力地概括了我们多数人日常背负的心理负担——那些被我们主观放大的生活体验。

I love Michael Gervais' work on FOPO, and I think that is such a strong and succinct way to sum up what so many of us walk around with is our perceived lived lived experience.

有几个心理学理论确实支持FOPO是我们都需要克服的普遍现象这一观点。

So there's a few pieces of psychology that really support this idea that FOPO is a phenomenon that we need to all work on.

首先是埃利奥特·阿伦森关于聚光灯效应的研究。

Number one is Elliot Aronson's work around the spotlight effect.

对吧？

Right?

我们总以为别人在更仔细地观察和分析我们，而事实并非如此。

That we believe people are looking at us with far more intensity and analysis than they actually are.

我们总是想，啊，我在那次演讲中口误了。

We believe, oh, I tripped up my words in that presentation.

现在所有人都在盯着我看。

Now everyone is staring at me.

聚光灯如此强烈地聚焦在我身上。

The spotlight is on me so brightly, so intensely.

是的。

Yes.

他们确实听到了，但几秒钟内，很可能他们的注意力已经转向你接下来要说的内容，或者回到自己身上。

They heard you, but within seconds, the likelihood is they've already turned their attention either to the next thing you're saying or back to themselves.

我牙上是不是沾了东西？

Do I have something in my teeth?

哦，接下来该我发言了。

Oh, I need to speak next.

他们远没有我们想象中那样高强度地关注着我们。

They're not looking at us with nearly the intensity that we think they are.

是的。

Yeah.

另一个我觉得非常有趣但较少被讨论的现象是透明度错觉。

The other one that I think is really interesting is one that's less talked about, which is the illusion of transparency.

同样，当我们感到非常尴尬或不适时，有些人可能会有强烈的生理反应。

Again, some of us, when we're very embarrassed or feel very awkward, we might have some strong physical reaction.

对吧？

Right?

有些人会满脸通红。

Some people get very red in the face.

他们会大汗淋漓。

They get very sweaty.

我们可以从生理层面做些事情来改善这种情况。

We can do things physiologically to work on that.

我们可以调整呼吸方式。

We can work on our breathing.

我们可以在需要展示前先活动一下身体。

We can try to have movement before we need to present.

我们先把这点放一边。

We'll put that to the side for a second.

但对大多数人来说，我们的胃可能正在翻腾。

For most of us, though, our stomachs might be turning.

我们的脸可能感觉发烫。

Our face might feel hot.

透明度错觉让我们以为所有人都能看到这些反应。

The illusion of transparency is that we believe everyone can see all of that.

大家都在盯着我们看，心想约翰有多紧张啊。

Everyone is looking at us going, look at how nervous John is.

他现在完全慌了神。

He is losing his mind right now.

那其实是一种错觉。

That is an illusion.

大多数人无法看透我们到那种紧张程度。

Most people can't see through us to that level of intensity.

紧张程度。

Intensity.

再次强调，不包括那些满脸通红、大汗淋漓需要练习生理调节技巧的极端案例，而是指我们大多数只是感到紧张焦虑的人——人们并不会以那种程度的关注盯着我们看。

Again, not the outliers who are bright red and sweating and need to work on some physiological techniques, but the majority of us who are just feeling nervous, feeling anxious, people are not looking at us with that level of intensity.

我们并没有那么容易被看透。当我们明白这一点时，就能稍微放松些。

We are not as transparent in all of that, And when we know that, we can relax a little bit.

他们的看法并非我们当时所想的那样。

Their opinion is not what we think it is in that moment.

我想根据你刚才说的稍微绕个弯。

I'm going to just take a little bit of a detour based on what you said.

当年我在安达信工作时，他们曾经常把埃森哲和安达信的所有员工都飞到芝加哥郊外的一个园区。

When I was at Arthur Andersen, back in the day, they used to fly us all in both Accenture and Arthur Anderson to a campus outside of Chicago.

我在那里时，其中一位圣...

And while I was there, one of the St.

那个地方叫圣查尔斯。

Charles is what it was called.

他们把一个原本是女子私立学校的旧址改造成了分家后两家机构共用的园区。

They took an old I think it was a girl's private school and turned it into a campus for both institutions after they split.

我在那里参加培训时，有位前中情局顾问来授课，她专门教我们如何觉察自己的紧张习惯，同时识别客户在采购服务时流露的微妙信号。

But while I was there, we went through this course and there was a former CIA consultant who came in and what she focused on was helping us look at our own nervous habits, but also recognizing what subtle signs mean for someone who was buying our services.

比如她会告诉我们，如何察觉对方在拒绝、说谎或不相信你的说辞。

Meaning she would tell us, how could you pick up if someone was saying no, or someone was lying or someone was not believing what you were saying.

还有你自己会不自觉地流露出哪些细微迹象——比如不自信、对当前表现不确定或临场尴尬。

And then what are signs that you're giving off even in subtle ways that you're not confident that you're unsure of how you're presenting or you're awkward in the moment.

这真的令人大开眼界。

And it was really eye opening.

我敢打赌确实如此。

I bet.

是啊。

Yeah.

你有没有经历过类似的事情，比如有人点评你的演讲或其他方面？

Have you ever been through anything like that of someone like critiquing your speaking or other things?

我有过吗？

Have I ever?

当我决定成为一名专业演讲者时，我经历过严格的公开演讲训练，当时我就意识到自己需要注意某些事项。

I went through an intense public speaking training when I decided to become a professional speaker, and I knew that there were certain things that I was mindful of.

对吧？

Right?

所以我很早就被告知，除非有特定目的，否则不要在台上随意踱步，因为这会分散听众注意力。

So I was told pretty early on, don't, you know, erratically pace the stage unless you have a reason to do this because it can be distracting.

对吧？

Right?

如果你想展现自信，要么稳站中心位置，要么有目的地移动。

If you wanna appear confident, either stay centered and grounded or move with intention.

对吧？

Right?

你可以稍微走动，但来回踱步会让你显得紧张。

You can walk a little, but pacing makes you look nervous.

所以有些注意事项我是知道的。

So there were certain things I was aware of.

但有些是我没意识到的。

Here's what I wasn't aware of.

我极力避免踱步，老师教我要保持双脚与肩同宽，尽量保持静止来传达信息。

I was trying so hard not to pace, and I was taught try to keep your feet hip width and try to deliver the message while being still.

可是约翰，显然我的紧张情绪还是需要找到发泄口。

Well, John, apparently, my nervous energy still needed some place to go.

我记得演讲教练对我说：汉娜，现在你不踱步了，但开始左右摇晃了。

So I remember my public speaking coach telling me, well, Hannah, now that you're not pacing, you are swaying.

你的脚是站稳了，但你在做这个动作。

Your feet are grounded, but you're doing this.

我在前后摇晃——这是说给听众听的。

Back I'm I'm moving back and forth for those who are listening.

我像棵树一样摇晃着。

I was swaying like a tree.

直到别人指出来，我都没注意到自己一直在那样做。

I didn't even notice that I was doing that until it was pointed out to me.

所以我认为，你描述的关键部分在于：有时候这种工作可以非常具有反思性，需要独自完成。

So this is part of, I think, the takeaway of what you're describing is sometimes this work can be really reflective and done on your own.

有时候找个搭档一起做这项工作会很有帮助，一个能帮你发现个人习惯信号或改进机会的问责伙伴。

Sometimes this work is really helpful to do with a partner, an accountability buddy who can help you bubble up some of the things that are your own personal tells or your opportunities.

直到有人告诉我之前，我完全没意识到自己在摇晃。

I had no idea I was swaying until someone told me that.

现在我养成了一些习惯，在演讲前如果感到紧张，我会做些开合跳，或者练习深呼吸。

Now I get into habits where before I go give it a talk where I might be a bit nervous, I perhaps do some jumping jacks, or I work on taking some really deep breaths.

如果在演讲中途有点紧张，这里有个小秘密。

Or if I get a little bit nervous mid session, here's a little secret.

如果你看到我这样做，现在你就知道我在干什么了。

If you ever see me do this, now you'll know what I'm doing.

我的双手可能会在背后停留片刻。

My hands might go behind my back for a moment.

你们看不到的是，我正在用尽全力紧握手指，试图释放体内积聚的紧张能量，但我用了一种没人能察觉的方式。

What you don't see is that I'm squeezing my fingers with all of my might to try to release some of the nervous energy that is built up in my body, but I'm doing it in a way that no one can see.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们可以用些小技巧来释放这些能量，这样就不会显得尴尬。

And so there's little techniques we can use to help release some of that energy so that we don't appear awkward.

我们可能会感受到它。

We might feel it.

我们可能会感受到，但目标是在某些场合不要表现出来。

We might feel it, but the goal is to not appear that way in certain settings.

去年，我是播客名人堂的主持人。

Last year, I was the one emcee for the podcast hall of fame.

在准备过程中——就像你做主题演讲时常见的那样——面前有提词器显示接下来的内容。

And as we were prepping for it as you're probably familiar at most keynotes that you do, there monitors in front of you so that you can see what's coming up next.

那次活动上，我需要介绍很多人、感谢许多赞助商，还要完成各种流程。

And in this case, I had to introduce a lot of people and thank a lot of sponsors and do this and do that.

我上台大约三十秒后，屏幕突然黑了。

So I get up there after about thirty seconds, the screen goes black.

我经历过这种情况。

Been there.

而且屏幕再也没亮起来。

And it's not coming back.

我当时完全懵了：这下该怎么办？

And I am just like, what am I going to do?

但你不能表现出来。

And you can't let that on.

我觉得人们永远不会想到这种事会发生，但老兄，意外就是会发生。

But those are the things that I think people never think it's going to happen, but man, this stuff does happen.

幸好我提前练习过。

And luckily I had practiced.

所以我坚持了足够长的时间，屏幕最终恢复了，我也顺利完成了演讲。

And so I went through it long enough that it eventually came back on and I was able to get through it.

但是，天哪，那一刻真是尴尬极了。

But, man, was it an awkward moment.

我很喜欢这个故事，它让我想到了两点。

I love that story, and it brings me to two thoughts.

第一点是准备工作的重要性。

Number one is preparation.

有一样东西能帮助你在任何情况下都减少尴尬感，那就是准备。

That one thing that will help you feel less awkward about anything, where possible, is prep.

总会有需要我们实时应对的意外时刻，这时我们就得提升应变能力。

There's gonna be unexpected moments that we'll have to deal with in real time, then we work on our comeback rate.

但对于那些让我们感到尴尬却可以提前准备的事情——无论是演讲还是艰难对话——尽管显而易见，但准备工作仍被严重低估。

But for the things that feel awkward that we can prepare for, a presentation, a difficult conversation, preparation is underused even though it's obvious.

但第二点，你的故事让我想起西蒙·斯涅克讲的一个精彩故事，这又回到了我们关于寻求帮助的话题。

But the second thing, your story reminded me of there's a great story that Simon Sinek tells, and this comes back to our asking for help.

他讲了一个故事，说自己在台上演讲时，讲到一半突然大脑一片空白。

He tells a story about how he was speaking on stage, and in the middle of his remarks, blanked completely.

完全空白。

Just blank.

他忘记接下来该说什么了。

He he forgot what he was supposed to say next.

你知道他当时做了什么吗？

And you know what he did in that moment?

他向观众求助。

He asked the audience for help.

他说：这太尴尬了。

He said, this is embarrassing.

我刚刚完全断片了。

I have just completely blanked out.

我彻底忘记自己在讲什么，也忘了接下来该说什么。

I completely have forgotten what I'm talking about, what I'm supposed to say next.

有人能提醒我刚才在讲什么吗？

Can someone remind me what I was just talking about?

于是有位观众立刻喊道，我们刚才正在讨论这个，他恍然大悟，啊，对。

So an audience member rate shouted out and said, were just talking about this, and he's, ah, yes.

就是那个话题，他重新找回了思路。

It was that, and he got back on track.

他后来继续分享说，那是他做过评分最高的演讲之一。

He he then goes on to share later that was one of his most highly rated speaking events that he's ever done.

观众们喜爱他在台上展现的这种人性化——虽然尴尬笨拙——的真实时刻，他没有装作万事通的硬汉形象，而是敞开心扉寻求帮助，最终顺利度过了难关。

The audience loved that he had this human, admittedly embarrassing, awkward moment on stage, but rather than be mister expert tough guy, he let them in and he asked for help, and he moved through it.

在我看来，这正是世界发展的方向。

And that to me is where I think the world is headed.

我们已经厌倦了精心打造的完美。

We are over this curated perfection.

不是要突然转向这个话题，但我认为我们正逐渐摆脱网络书面交流中那种人工智能式的不协调感——人们表现得像个万事通专家。

We are over not to take this in a left turn, but I think we're a little bit increasingly getting over this AI incongruence of people sounding so expert y in the written format online.

而当你与他们交谈时，他们的表现却与文字中判若两人。

And then when you speak to them, they don't sound a thing like that.

这完全是一种不协调。

There's a total incongruence.

我认为我们将回归到这样一个空间：当我们承认并尊重那些磕磕绊绊时，它们反而能以某种方式推动我们的信心向前，从而具有更深层次的价值。

I think we're gonna be returning to this space where the stumble and fumble has such deeper value when we acknowledge it and honor it in a way that actually pushes our confidence forward.

我前几天刚和斯科特·安东尼聊过，如果你不认识他，他过去二十五年一直与克莱顿·克里斯坦森共事。

I was just talking the other day to Scott Anthony, who if you don't know him, he grew up for the past twenty five years working with Clay Christensen.

他现在在达特茅斯学院任教，但他提到在他教授的课程中，收到的论文质量前所未有地好。

He now teaches at Dartmouth, but he was talking about how the papers he's received have never been better in the classes that he teaches.

现在他将这一做法提升到了新高度，要求学生来展示他们的材料，但必须脱稿进行。

Now he's taking it to the next level and he makes the students then come in and present their material, but they have to do it without notes or anything else.

我太喜欢这个做法了。

I love this.

因为他发现人们根本没有真正掌握他们在论文中展示的内容。

Because he's finding that people aren't retaining at all what they're presenting in these papers.

所以他希望他们真正掌握这些知识。

And so he wants them to really learn the information.

因此他要求他们迈出下一步：必须超越使用AI，真正理解你所谈论的内容，我认为这非常明智。

So he's making them take this next step which is you've got to go beyond using AI to really authentically understanding what you're talking about, which I think is really smart.

这个想法很棒。

Love this idea.

这相当于将整篇论文进行重构的进阶版，但我认为每位正在组建团队的领导者，都应该将这种理念以某种形式融入团队建设中。

And again, it that's at its sort of master master scale of taking entire paper and then resynthesizing it, but I think every leader who is trying to develop a team right now should take some version of that lesson into their teams.

这不仅仅是——我们很多人都看过麻省理工斯隆管理学院那项新研究：频繁使用生成式AI的人存在记忆留存问题。

It's not even just about we many of us have seen that new MIT Sloan research study about people who use generative AI regularly are having retention issues.

他们做完就忘了。

They do it, then it's done.

就像你说的，他们并没有记住这些信息。

They're not retaining the information, like you said.

但更重要的是信息的整合能力。

But more than that is the synthesizing of information.

我们甚至没有花时间去理解所读内容的意义。

We're not even taking the time to make meaning out of what it is that we've read.

因此，我喜欢斯科特这个练习的原因是，如果没有笔记，他们就不只是单纯记住信息。

And so what I love about Scott's exercise is if they don't have notes, they're not just retaining the information.

他们实际上被迫要从所读和创造的内容中提炼意义——因为意义能帮助你记忆，然后创造出可以向全班复述的版本。

They're actually being forced to make meaning out of what it is that they read and created because meaning is what helps you remember and then create a version that you then repeat to the class.

所以，斯科特·安东尼，谢谢你。

So I, Scott Anthony, thank you.

我会在我的工作坊中借用这个练习。

I will be borrowing that exercise in my workshops.

这真是太棒了。

So that's fantastic.

我要换个话题了。

I'm gonna switch gears here.

你最近发布了2025年关于社交肌肉萎缩的全国性研究。

You recently released a 2025 national study on social muscle atrophy.

这里用了很多术语。

A lot of words there.

但你称其为无声的组织危机。

But you say it's the silent organizational crisis.

对于初次听到这个术语的听众来说，什么是SMA（社交肌肉萎缩）？人们为什么应该关注它？

For listeners who are hearing this term for the first time, what is SMA, and why should people care?

是的。

Yes.

社交肌肉萎缩是指由于使用不足或缺乏有意义的实践，导致我们的社交技能逐渐弱化。

So social muscle atrophy is the gradual weakening of our social skills due to underuse or a lack of meaningful practice.

有时候反过来思考会更有帮助。

So sometimes thinking about that in the reverse is helpful.

我们可以通过几种方式来增强社交肌肉力量。

We can build social muscle strength in a few ways.

这需要通过重复练习——比如有更多机会与人交谈、进行艰难对话、寻求帮助，但不仅仅是重复，还要有意义的实践，即对话的质量。

It's through repetitions, so more opportunities to talk to people, to have a difficult conversation, to ask for help, but also not just reps, meaningful practice, meaning the quality of the conversation.

打个招呼，嘿。

Saying, hey.

你今天过得怎么样？

How was your day?

而你，约翰，也说，嘿。

And you, John, say, hey.

还不错。

It was good.

是的。

Yes.

严格来说，那只是一次重复练习，而约翰，我感到非常尴尬。

Technically, that's a rep versus, John, I feel really embarrassed.

我真的很想用不同的方式回答那个问题。

I really wanted to answer that question differently.

我们能考虑重拍那段吗？因为我不喜欢自己当时的表现。

Could we consider rerunning that segment because I don't like the way that I showed up?

对吧？

Right?

突然间，在一句话的功夫里，我问了你一个有点脆弱的问题。

All of a sudden, in the span of one sentence, I asked you something that was a little bit vulnerable.

你得以了解关于我的一些事情，以及我喜欢在世界上展现自我的方式。

You got to learn something about me and the way that I like to show up in the world.

这比简单说声'嗨'要有意义得多。

That's a much more meaningful interaction than, hey.

你好吗？

How are you?

今天过得怎么样？

How was your day?

这些正是我们在混合办公、AI世界、技术领域和代际变迁中开始看到衰退的互动类型。

So these are the types of things that in the hybrid, in the AI world, in the technology world, in the generational world, we have started to see decline.

就像如果你一年、两年、三年没在健身房举重，下次举重时会觉得非常困难，而且你肯定举不起很重的重量——现在进行这类对话的需求已经大幅减少了。

There's just not as much need to do these conversations in this way, and when you don't pick up a weight at the gym for a year, two years, three years, that next wait time you do, that weight feels very difficult to pick up, and you certainly aren't gonna pick up a very heavy one.

这个比喻同样适用于我们的社交能力。

Same thing metaphorically applies in our social skills.

如果我们不使用这些技能，就会失去它们；如果我们不偶尔尝试进行有意义的对话，那么你将很难去要求升职、给出负面反馈或向他人寻求指导。

If we don't use them, we lose them, and if we don't try to have meaningful conversations from time to time, then it will be really difficult for you to ask for a promotion, to give difficult feedback, to ask for guidance from someone.

我们需要从小处开始练习。

We need to practice in the small ways.

乔纳森·海特一直在研究'焦虑的一代'，以及众多年轻男女缺乏冒险精神的现象。

Jonathan Haidt has really been focusing on the anxious generation and the lack of risk taking that so many boys and girls, young adults have walked into.

我认为这在某种程度上与这种社交肌肉萎缩的风险形式相关。

And I think in some ways this kind of correlates to this social muscle atrophy in the form of risks.

所以我想请教，根据你的研究，这种现象在不同世代间是如何差异化表现的？

And so I wanted to ask, based on your research, how is this showing up differently across generations?

你认为Z世代在这个领域确实面临着明显更高的挑战吗？

And do you think that Gen Z is really reporting significantly higher struggles in this area?

是的。

Yeah.

我想确认这个数据是否准确。

I wanted to make sure I had this stat right.

总体而言，44%的美国职场人士认为他们与同事的关系很表面。

Forty four percent of working Americans in total find their workplace relationships to be superficial.

但当我们关注Z世代时，这个数字实际上飙升到了52%。

But when we think about Gen z, that number actually shoots up to fifty two percent.

因此是所有世代中最高的。

So the highest of any generation.

超过一半的Z世代认为他们在工作中的团队关系很肤浅。

More than half of Gen z look at their team relationships at work as superficial.

那么为什么表面化是个问题呢？

Now why is superficiality a problem?

我并不是说每个人都必须在工作中成为最好的朋友。

I'm not saying everyone needs to be best friends at work.

我认为那是个不切实际的标准。

I think that's an unrealistic standard.

我不认为这是必要的。

I don't think that's necessary.

但当所有关系都被视为极其肤浅的表面关系时，你就不知道工作中谁会支持你。

But when they're all considered absolute surface level and superficial, you don't know who at work has your back.

你不知道工作中可以向谁安全地倾诉，比如承认犯了个错误，而这个错误可能会严重影响我们的盈亏，却不知道该告诉谁。

You don't know who at work is safe to go talk to and say, made a mistake, and it's one that might really affect our bottom line, and I don't know who to tell.

对吧？

Right?

表面关系在同事间普遍存在是危险的。

Superficiality consistently through every peer is dangerous.

另一个有趣的Z世代统计数据显示，我们知道薄弱的社交技能会直接导致人员流动，这意味着即使工资较低，如果员工在工作中有朋友，感觉有同事支持他们，他们也会选择留下。

The other interesting Gen Z statistic was we know that weak social skills actively drive turnover, meaning people will stay at a job even if they're making less money if they have friends at work, if they feel like they have people who have their back at work.

虽然这是与组织人员流动相关的首要挑战，特别是对Z世代而言，Z世代报告称他们在社交能力退化相关问题上比婴儿潮一代多出27%的困扰。

And while it is the number one challenge tied to organizational turnover, for Gen Z in particular, Gen Z reports 27% more social muscle atrophy related struggles than boomers.

比婴儿潮一代多出27%。

27 more than boomers.

这是一场留任危机。

This is a retention crisis.

如果这是人员流动的主要驱动因素，而Z世代在这方面比婴儿潮一代多出四分之一以上的困扰，那么我们就需要思考这如何实际影响员工保留率和流动率，因为婴儿潮一代的体验相对较轻，可能不如数据所示那么明显。

If this is the driver of turnover and Gen z is struggling with it over a quarter more, then we need to think about how this actually plays a role in retention and turnover because, again, boomers are experiencing it a little less, and so they may not see it as clearly as the data shows.

我想就此展开后续讨论。

I want to do a follow-up on this.

我的很多工作都聚焦于归属感或重要性感知的科学。

So a lot of my work is focused on the science of mattering or belonging.

我深信如你所引述的，薄弱的社交技能正在直接推动人员流动。

And I really believe, as you were citing, weak social skills are actively driving turnover.

我还认为员工的感受——他们是否感到被关注、被重视、有联结——也在此形成一股暗流，成为众多企业面临的存在感缺失问题的一部分。

I also think that the way an employee feels, do they feel seen, valued, and connected is also driving an undercurrent here and is part of a mattering deficit that is happening to so many companies.

你同意这个观点吗？

Would you agree with that?

百分之百同意。

A 100%.

我觉得我们俩的工作可以用四个字来概括

I feel like you and I could link our work with a four word phrase.

他们怎么知道？

How do they know?

他们怎么知道？

How do they know?

如果他们在组织中被看见、被重视、被尊重，如果你想让他们感受到归属感，那么归属感与社交技能的交集就在于——他们怎么知道？

If they're seen, valued, respected in the organization, if you want them to feel that they belong, the intersection between belonging and social skills is how do they know?

这需要你明确告诉他们

It requires you to tell them.

这需要你与他们进行对话

It requires you to have a conversation with them.

他们不会凭空感受到这种氛围

They won't just get the vibe.

对吧？

Right?

不是像我十几岁的孩子会怎么说？

Not the how would my teenager say it?

感受氛围？

Catching vibes?

不。

No.

我们不是在感受氛围。

We're not catching vibes.

你真的需要与人沟通。

You actually have to communicate to someone.

我尊重你。

I respect you.

我重视你。

I value you.

我感激你在这里所做的一切。

I appreciate what you do here.

我看到你工作有多努力了。

I see how hard you're working.

这就是社会结构必须存在的地方。

That's where that social structure has to exist.

对某些人来说，这是自然而然的事。

And for some people, that comes naturally.

我开玩笑地告诉别人，我喜欢当别人的啦啦队长。

I I jokingly tell people that I love to be people's hype girl.

约翰，我要告诉你，你在那个播客节目上表现得非常出色。

I will tell you, John, you're killing it on that podcast.

太棒了。

Love that.

我很喜欢你那样说。

I love the way you said that.

我会直接表达我的赞赏。

I'm vocal with my appreciation.

对其他人来说，可能需要将其系统化。

For others, it might need to be systemized.

所以我的朋友尼恩·詹姆斯将其称为系统化的体贴。

So my my friend, Neen James, refers to it as systemized thoughtfulness.

如果你天生不擅长这样做，那也没关系。

If you're not naturally someone who does, that's okay.

无需感到羞愧。

No shame needed.

但要将其系统化。

But systemize it.

或许可以在你的日历上每周安排一次。

Maybe on your calendar once a week.

我该如何联系团队中的几位核心成员，确保他们感受到被关注、倾听和重视？

How can I reach out to a few key members of my team and make sure that they know they are seen, heard, and valued?

他们本周做了一些值得我特别表扬的事情。

There was something that they did this week that I'm going to call out.

如果希望员工有归属感，而你又非天生擅长此道，那就将其融入你的每周例行工作中。

Make it part of the fabric of your week if it's not something that comes naturally, if you want people to belong.

我想谈谈你书中最引人注目的一个故事。

I wanna talk about one of the most striking stories I found in your book.

讲的是疫情期间一位深受爱戴的CEO。

It was about a CEO who became beloved during the pandemic.

并非因为他演讲出色或其他原因，而是他允许孩子打断会议、放任狗吠叫——幸好我身边这两只现在没叫。

Not because he was nailing his speeches or anything else, but because he let his kids interrupt, the dog was barking, and I've got two sitting here besides me who I'm glad are not barking.

我家的在那边。

Mine's over there.

在一次次Zoom会议中。

Through Zoom call after Zoom call.

这一切给他的员工带来了什么改变？

What did all of that change for his employees?

补充说明一下，这位CEO原本是极其严谨的。

So this CEO, just for context, was very buttoned up.

从没有人见过他说话结巴。

Nobody ever saw him stumble on his words.

我说这话带着爱意而非评判。

He was a I say this with love and no judgment.

他是个依赖提词器的CEO。

He was a teleprompter CEO.

他是个照本宣科的CEO。

He was a notes reading CEO.

他的发言非常像政客，结构严谨、计划周密，这正是人们对他的固有印象。

His remarks were very much similar to a politician, were very structured, very planned, and that was what people had come to expect from him.

他总是穿着西装。

He always had on a suit.

他从不穿便装。

He never dressed down.

他是个非常正式的CEO。

He was a formal CEO.

疫情期间发生的情况是，我们许多人都没有准备好家庭办公室——事实上我们大多数人都是如此——就这么猝不及防地被推入了这种状态。

And what happened in the pandemic is many of us who didn't have our home offices ready, which was many of us, you know, got it got thrown in.

他们只能利用家里任何可用的空间。

They're using whatever space in the house that was available.

我记得他住在纽约市的公寓里，所以根本没有多余的房间可以让他躲进去工作。

I believe he lived in an apartment in New York City, so there wasn't an extra room for him to dive into.

于是他只能在厨房餐桌上接电话，根本没时间精心布置背景。

So he was taking calls from the kitchen table, and there was no time to curate the background.

他可能匆匆套了件夹克，但就像你说的，孩子们会突然冲进厨房。

So he may have thrown on a jacket, but like you said, the kids would run into the kitchen unexpectedly.

狗会突然吠叫。

The dog would bark.

他身后的镜头里会有人来回走动，起初他对此非常困扰，直到开始收到高管团队的反馈说公司上下都很喜欢这种真实感。

The shot behind him would be somebody moving back and forth, and he struggled with this at the beginning until he started to get feedback from his executive team that the company was loving it.

所以当他录制全员会议视频时，再次地，他只能因地制宜地完成必须完成的工作。

So when he was delivering all hands messages recording videos, again, he had to do what he had to do.

那是疫情初期，大家都觉得，哦，这家伙原来也有心跳。

It was early days of the pandemic, and everyone was like, oh, this guy does have a heartbeat.

他确实有人性的一面。

He does have some humanity.

他是我们中的一员。

He's one of us.

对吧？

Right?

有个老...我现在不读这本杂志了，但十几二十岁时我常看《美国周刊》，里面有个专栏叫《名人》，现在应该还在。

There's a there's an old I don't read this magazine anymore, but when I was in my teens and twenties, I used to read Us Weekly, and there was a column called celebrities I think there still is.

《名人也是普通人》。

Celebrities, they're just like us.

就是专门刊登名人做普通事的专栏，比如去杂货店购物、穿运动裤之类的。

And it's literally a column of celebrities just doing things, right, going to the grocery store, wearing sweatpants.

这太荒谬了，约翰。

It's ridiculous, John.

这太荒谬了。

It's ridiculous.

为什么我们社会如此喜爱这个专栏？

And why do we love that column so much as a society?

因为我们把人们推上了他们并未要求的神坛。

Because we put people on pedestals that they didn't ask for.

而这些展现共同人性的时刻——他眼中的尴尬瞬间——对我们来说却极具平等意义。

And so these moments of just shared humanity, what he deemed an awkward moment, for us felt very equalizing.

这让人倍感鼓舞。

It felt very encouraging.

它让我们意识到：啊，我们也有孩子缠着要抱。

It allows us to then realize, oh, we have a kid pulling at our leg.

我们也有狗狗在吠叫，而这恰恰是好事。

We have a dog that's barking, and it's good business.

实际上这显著提升了他年底的收视率。

And it actually improved his ratings measurably at the end of the year.

我之所以提起这件事，是因为我们刚才在讨论'重要性'问题，我认为那位CEO的故事恰恰揭示了组织内部'重要性缺失'的核心症结——许多我曾共事过的领导都显得疏离、完美却难以亲近，这让为他们工作变得异常困难。

Well, the reason I brought it up since we were talking about mattering is I think that CEO story really is at the heart of the mattering deficit inside organizations, where so many of the leaders I had worked with seemed so distanced, polished, and unrelatable that it made working for them difficult.

那么你认为良好的'尴尬感'如何帮助弥合这种隔阂呢？

So how do you think good awkwardness helps close that gap?

我们刚讨论了这位CEO，但其他人该如何主动接纳这种方式，进而让人们感受到自己的重要性？

We just talked about this CEO, but how could other people, like, embrace this and in turn make people feel like they matter?

我认为这不仅是美好的话，而且也是美好的话。

So I think, again, we'll revisit a word we used earlier, which is ownership.

我认为这不仅是美好的话，而且也是美好的话。

What I don't want is fabricated awkwardness.

我认为这不仅是美好的话，而且也是美好的话。

Right?

我认为这不仅是美好的话，而且也是美好的话。

And, oh, this is very difficult for me when it's not something that is actually difficult for you.

我认为这不仅是美好的话，而且也是美好的话。

I use a term in the book of faux vulnerability.

对吧？

Right?

所以我认为尴尬是通往脆弱的垫脚石，我们都不喜欢也都能感觉到的是，当有人不必要地编造故事时。

So awkwardness, I view as a stepping stone to vulnerability, and what we don't like and what we can all feel is when someone is creating a narrative unnecessarily.

但我确实希望看到领导者更多地做的是，让他们的疑虑、缺点和失误有更多曝光的机会，而不是把它们藏在幕后。

But what I do wanna see leaders doing more is just letting their misgivings, their flaws, their blunders have a little bit more airtime rather than keeping them behind the curtain.

所以如果你念错了某人的名字而没人听到，是的，你可以自己默默承受。

So if you mispronounce someone's name and no one heard you, yeah, you can take that with you.

你可以把它埋在心里，永远不会有人知道。

You can have that lay back and no one will ever know.

但假设你在一个会议上又念错了名字，那个人为此感到尴尬。

But let's say you're in a meeting and there's another mispronounced name, that person feels embarrassed by it.

也许你可以说，你知道吗？

Maybe you can then say, you know what?

当我准备笔记时，我严重念错了这个名字。

When I was preparing my notes, I brutally mispronounced this name.

我在会议前不得不练习了三遍。

I had to practice it three times before we came into the meeting.

这就是良好尴尬的体现。

That's an embodiment of good awkward.

当会议中出现意外状况时，能够实时承认并承担。

Having a moment that goes sideways in a meeting and then owning it in real time.

我有个朋友鲍勃·鲁索，在IBM工作多年，他讲过一个关于他老板在会议上讲笑话的精彩故事。

There's a my friend, Bob Russo, worked for IBM for years, and he says a great story about how his boss made a joke in a meeting.

公司高管在会议上开了个玩笑，结果没人笑。

So head of the company, executive made a joke in a meeting that did not get a laugh.

我不知道是笑话不合时宜还是根本不好笑。

Just I don't know if it was off color or it just wasn't there.

他紧接着说了句：'这就像教堂里的屁一样尴尬'，我觉得这反应绝了。

And the next thing out of his mouth was, well, that just went over like a fart in church, which I thought was just great.

于是所有人都笑了。

So everyone laughs.

这化解了紧张气氛，但更重要的是他尝试了但失败了，并且让大家觉得这没什么大不了的。

It pops the tension, but the bigger learning is he swung and he missed, and he made it okay for that to happen.

鲍勃说在那之后，会议剩下的时间里，人们开始尝试说出平时不敢说的话，因为他让这种表达变得可以接受。

And Bob said after that, the rest of the meeting, people tried stuff that they didn't normally say out loud because he made it okay.

所以拥抱尴尬，去除其中的负面因素，努力发现其中的积极面，在我看来，是将我们常说的心理安全感付诸实践的方式——就是主动迎上去。

So embracing awkwardness, taking all of the bad out of it, trying to find the good in it is, in my opinion, a way to operationalize that psychological safety we talk so much about is lean in.

不要退缩。

Don't shy away.

主动迎上去，接纳并示范你希望他人做到的行为。

Lean in, own, and model what you want other people to be doing.

汉娜，我们还没机会聊这个，但你年轻时曾因与众不同而成长。

Hannah, you and I haven't had a chance to talk about this, but when you were younger, you grew up feeling different.

我理解你的发型、午餐、音乐品味都让你感到与众不同，但你把所有这些尴尬都转化成了你的超能力。

I understand your hair, your lunch, your music tastes all made you feel different, and yet you transformed all that awkwardness into your superpower.

对于正在收听、仍处于尴尬僵局中的人，他们这周可以采取什么小步骤来接纳自己的尴尬呢？

For someone who's listening, who's still in that cringe paralysis, what's one small step they can take this week to step into their awkwardness?

我要给你我最喜欢的重构方式——哪怕只做一件事，如果这就是你要做的全部，我希望你在离开这次对话时能以不同的角度思考这个问题。

I'm gonna give you my favorite reframe just to to if one thing, if this is all you do, I want you to leave this conversation thinking of this differently.

世界上不存在客观意义上的尴尬之人。

There is no such thing as a factually awkward person.

不存在这种事。

No such thing.

根据定义，尴尬是一种情绪或特征，它是主观的。

By definition, awkwardness is an emotion or a characteristic, and it is subjective.

世界上不存在客观意义上的尴尬之人。

There is no such thing as a factually awkward person.

所以我希望你们做的第一件事，就是选择用来描述自己的语言。

So the very first thing I want you to do is choose the language you're using to describe yourself.

如果你在这个世界上行走时总说'我很尴尬'。

If you are walking around this world saying, I am awkward.

我真是太尴尬了。

I am so awkward.

我太尴尬了，无法进行这次对话。

I am too awkward to have this conversation.

这是你自己设计的限制性信念。

That is a limiting belief of your own design.

你实际在做的是——我希望你现在就改变这种说法——我现在感到尴尬。

What you're actually doing, and I would like you to change this language right now, is I am feeling awkward right now.

我在这个社交活动上感到尴尬。

I'm feeling awkward at this networking event.

我对会议上说的那句话感到尴尬。

I'm feeling awkward about the comment I made in the meeting.

我对事情的发展方式感到难堪。

I'm feeling embarrassed about the way that went down.

感受是短暂的。

A feeling is transient.

感受是真实的，但它会过去。

A feeling is real, but it will pass.

它并不能定义你是谁。

It does not define who you are.

至少，在你开始用命名它、使用幽默等方式处理之前，我希望你能花点精力相信你并不是一个笨拙的人。

At a very minimum, before you get into the steps of naming it and using humor and all of that, I want you to please spend a little energy believing you are not an awkward person.

你只是一个偶尔会感到尴尬的人，而这个事实会让你获得自由。

You are a person who feels awkward from time to time, and that truth will set you free.

或许可以接着问：你会用一个什么词来形容好的尴尬？

And maybe a follow-up to that is, is there one word you'd use to describe good awkward?

勇敢。

Brave.

勇敢。

Brave.

我认为如果你能体现'好的尴尬'意味着什么，你将势不可挡。

I think if you can embody what it means to be good awkward, you are unstoppable.

每个风险都在你的掌控之中，所以勇敢些。

Every risk is in your reach, so brave.

好的。

Okay.

那这个怎么样？

How about this?

你共事过的最佳领导是如何展现他们笨拙的一面的？

The best leader you've ever worked with who showed their awkwardness, how did they do it?

天啊。

Oh, god.

我该怎么选呢？

How do I choose?

我要说个最近的例子。

I'm gonna say recent.

这是我现在的合作伙伴，我的朋友哈里·威尔逊，我们共同创办了一家名为'无限思维'的初创公司。

So this is somebody I have a partnership with now, but my friend Harry Wilson, he and I partnered together with a firm called Limitless Minds, and it's a start up.

这段旅程一直充满起伏。

So there has been ups and downs on this journey.

我们曾有过一次会议，让我非常钦佩的是会后他打电话给我说：'赫娜，我对那次会议效果不太满意，但我很重视你的意见'

And there was a meeting that we had, and what I admired so much is after the meeting, we got on a call, and he said, Hena, I didn't really love how that meeting went, and I value your opinion.

我本可以采取哪些不同的做法？

What could I have done differently?

我该如何引导会议走向不同方向？

How could I have let that meeting go in a different direction?

作为领导者，我有哪些需要改进的地方？

What could I, as a leader, have improved on?

我知道这样提问会让人非常尴尬，几乎是在暴露自己的脆弱

I know asking that felt incredibly awkward, veering on vulnerable.

对吧？

Right?

这确实需要某种情感上的袒露

There was some emotional exposure there.

但在我看来，敢于停留在这种不适问题中的领导者，恰恰体现了他们具备适应性和调整意愿的特质

But to me, a leader that has the courage, the willingness to stay in the discomfort of a question like that is the marker of a leader who is adaptable, who is willing to adjust.

这让我印象极为深刻。

And I was extremely impressed by it.

所以这大概是我最近能想到的最典型的例子了。

So that was the most, probably the recent one I can think of.

领导者和组织仍将社交技能视为软技能，这对他们的创新、员工保留和企业文化意味着什么？

Leaders and organizations continue to treat social skills as soft skills, what's at stake for their innovation, retention, and culture?

哦，天哪。

Oh, gosh.

我觉得好笑的是人们还在问这个问题。

I laugh that people still ask this question.

对吧？

Right?

在AI时代，硬技能正变得更容易外包、自动化，通过机器实现可重复性。

In the age of AI, hard skills are becoming easier to outsource, automate, become repeatable through machines.

软技能已不再'软'了。

Soft skills are not soft anymore.

软技能其实是核心技能。

Soft skills are power skills.

我认为，从目前的数据来看，未来三大核心技能将是沟通能力、建立并维护界限的能力，以及公开演讲（这也是沟通的一种形式）。当自动化和人工智能能处理其他事务时，这些能力将成为人类独有的优势。

I think today, we've seen some data that suggests that the three power skills are going to be communication, ability to hold and maintain boundaries, and public speaking, which is a form of communication, but these are the things that are going to be uniquely human when automation and AI can support the rest.

所以我认为，任何轻视这些所谓'软技能'的人，当人性化的细微差异开始发挥作用，当人们更愿意为有人情味的领导者工作时，他们会感到非常惊讶。

And so I think anybody who considers these soft skills are gonna find themselves very surprised when the very human nuances come into play, and people work for people.

我认为这一点永远不会改变。

I don't think that's ever going to change.

因此，那些独特的人际交往技能，我们都有责任看清未来，并认识到这些技能将再次变得至关重要——要知道，我已年过四十。

So whatever skills are uniquely people skills, we all owe it to ourselves to see the future clearly and know that those will require again, I'm in my mid forties.

这些技能将需要一定程度的培养，这在我们当年街头玩耍时可能并不必要。

They're gonna require a level of development that may have not been necessary in the We played on the streets.

我们学会了如何应对冲突。

We figured out conflict negotiation.

我们摸索出了解决之道。

We figured out things.

当今的领导者需要优先发展这些技能，我认为这一点会变得越来越明显。

Today's leader are going to need to prioritize development of these skills, and I think that is going to become more and more apparent.

最后，Hena，听众们可以去哪里了解更多关于你的信息呢？

And lastly, Hena, where can listeners go to learn more about you?

哦，谢谢。

Oh, thank you.

Hena Pryor无处不在。

Hena Pryor in all the places.

领英是我的主要活动平台，Instagram账号是hennapryor。

LinkedIn is my primary playground, but Instagram hennapryor as well.

我的个人网站是hennapryor.com。

And hennapryor.com is my website.

你可以在那里找到我的墨水文章。

You can find my ink articles.

你还可以找到我的领英学习课程。

You can find my LinkedIn Learning courses.

这些内容都在我的网站上。

It's all there at my website.

汉娜，能邀请你上节目真是莫大的荣幸和快乐。

Hannah, it's such a joy and honor to have you on the show.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

以上就是今天与汉娜·普赖尔的对话内容。

That's a wrap on today's conversation with Hannah Prior.

我喜欢这期节目的是，它把我们常常回避的尴尬，转化成了成长道路上强有力的绿灯。

What I love about this episode is how it flips something we often avoid, awkwardness, into a powerful green light for becoming.

因为成长从来不是一蹴而就的。

Because growth never arrives fully assembled.

它总是伴随着颤抖、汗水、不确定和新鲜感而来。

It arrives shaky, sweaty, unsure, and new.

以下是几条值得铭记的提醒。

Here are a few reminders worth carrying.

首先，如果你感到不适，那意味着你正在成长。

First, if you're uncomfortable, it means you're expanding.

其次，尴尬感证明你正在积极蜕变，而自信并非起点。

Second, awkwardness is evidence that you're actively becoming, and confidence is not the starting line.

它是在过程中逐渐获得的。

It's earned on the way.

如果海娜的讯息今天对你有帮助，请把这期节目分享给某个因担心不够完美而踌躇不前的人。

If Hena's message helped you today, please share this episode with someone who's holding back because they're worried they won't look perfect.

感谢你们让第700期节目如此精彩，并助力《激情觉醒》登顶全球健康与 wellness 榜单。

And thank you for making episode 700 what it was, and for helping Passionstruck hit number one in health and wellness worldwide.

这是我们共同推动的运动。

This is your movement as much as mine.

若想获取将这些对话应用于生活的工具和指导，请加入我们在theignitedlife.net的Substack社区，共同追求更深层的觉知生活。

If you want tools and guidance to apply these conversations in your life, join us at theignitedlife.net, my Substack community for deeper intentionality.

如果你想帮助孩子们在成长过程中明白自己的价值，请考虑在巴诺书店或youmatterluma.com上预订我的新儿童读物《露玛，你很重要》。

And if you want to help kids grow up knowing they matter, then consider pre ordering a copy of my new children's book, You Matter Luma at Barnes and Noble or youmatterluma.com.

下周，我将与来自肯尼亚变革型领导力项目Safarini Leadership的鲍里斯·马奎尔和阿里·雷辛对谈。

Next week, I'm sitting down with Boris Maguire and Ali Raisin of Safarini Leadership, a transformational leadership program based in Kenya.

他们带领高管们走出会议室，深入丛林，与桑布鲁族长者并肩同行，重新学习归属感、目标感，以及当连接成为生存技能时，领导力应有的模样。

They take executives out of the boardroom and into the bush, walking side by side with Sambura elders to relearn belonging, purpose, and what leadership looks like when connection is a survival skill.

我认为在西方，我们痴迷于时间。

I think in the West, we are obsessed with time.

对吧？

Right?

我们还痴迷于谁是第一，谁最年轻。

And we're obsessed with who's first and who's the youngest.

我们都能说出像马克·扎克伯格这样19或20岁就成为亿万富翁的企业家名字。

We can all name entrepreneurs like Mark Zuckerberg who became billionaires at 19 or 20.

还有许多成功企业家建立了价值数百万美元的企业，但他们直到50或55岁才实现这一目标，而这根本引不起我们的兴趣。

There are many successful entrepreneurs who build multimillion dollar businesses, but they don't achieve it until they're 50 or 55, and that's just not interesting to us.

这不够吸引人。

It's not sexy.

我们几乎过度迷恋速度至上的观念，我认为这反映了西方社会以目标为导向的本质，而桑布鲁人则更注重过程本身。

It's almost like we're over we fetishize this idea that speed is the most important thing, but and I think it speaks to the fact that in the West, we are destination driven, whereas the Samburu is much more about the journey.

这是生命之路，如何抵达比终点在何处更为重要。

It's the life's path, and how you get there is more important than where you end up.

在此之前，成长不在于外表光鲜。

Until then, becoming isn't about looking polished.

而是即使感到笨拙也要选择成长。

It's about choosing growth even when it feels awkward.

我是约翰·迈尔斯。

I'm John Miles.

你已被激情点燃。

You've been passion struck.

现在，去活出你的价值吧。

Now go live like you matter.