艾莉森·布拉格博士：提升睡眠效率与韧性

她到底想说什么？

Where's she going with this?

我一开始讲的是四种核心基因型模型，然后转到了关于女性和睡眠的那些研究。

But I was I started with the four core genotype model, and then I transitioned into the studies we know about women and sleep.

是的。

Mhmm.

最让人惊讶的是，斯坦福大学的蕾切尔·曼伯医生和耶鲁大学的特里·李医生早在八十年代就做了这些研究。

And what's crazy is, like, all this work that was done by doctor Rachel Rachel Manber at Stanford University and doctor Terry Lee at Yale University is like it was done in the eighties.

没错。

Yep.

可这些成果却被尘封了四十五年，直到可穿戴设备公司——我得特别提一下WHOOP——意识到我们得关注女性在睡眠上的独特差异。

And it just stayed in this vault for, like, forty five years until, quite honestly, wearable companies and, you know, I'll give a shout out to WHOOP, like, recognize that we need to focus on, like, female differences in sleep.

很多人以为这些研究没人知道，其实早在八十年代就有人做过了。

And a lot of people think that that research is unknown or unheard of, but actually, it was done in the eighties.

对。

Yeah.

而且当时的研究设计非常严谨，但不知怎么的，就这么被搁置了四十多年。

And it was done in a very robust controlled nature, but, you know, it was just forgotten for, like, forty five years.

关于男女之间的睡眠差异，我们到底知道些什么？

What do we actually know about sleep differences between men and women?

我真正想了解的是染色体层面的问题。

And what I actually wanna know about is chromosonally.

对。

Yeah.

如果把激素因素剥离出来，那基因层面的多态性或者其他活动，究竟是怎么影响睡眠的呢？

So when you tease out the hormones, how is it that a a particular whether it's a polymorphism or some other activity at the level of, the genome, how is that actually manipulating, manifesting itself into sleep?

对。

Mhmm.

如果不是内分泌机制，那还有没有其他可能的作用机制？

Any idea what mechanism was deposited there if it's not endocrine?

关于作用机制，我们知道，睡眠压力本身在男女之间确实存在差异。

So in terms of mechanism of action, we know that, again, there's differences in sleep pressure.

如果我们层层剥开这个洋葱，会发现睡眠压力表现为大脑内腺苷水平的升高，尤其是细胞外腺苷的生成，主要发生在基底前脑，这是一个促进清醒的区域。

And if you unpack the onion, sleep pressure is manifest from increasing levels of adenosine production, extracellular adenosine production within the brain, particularly the basal forebrain, which is a wake promoting area.

所以，如果睡眠压力积累得很快，而这种情况似乎发生在生物男性身上，因为睾丸决定了相关基因，那么细胞外腺苷的积累速度也会更快。

So if sleep pressure is accumulating quickly, which seems to be the case in biological males by way of the testes determining gene, then there's more rapid accumulation of extracellular adenosine.

而缓解这种不断上升的睡眠压力的唯一方法，就是白天小睡。

And the only way to pay off that increasing sleep pressure is through daytime sleep.

没错。

Yep.

所以，对女性来说，这意味着她们睡眠压力的积累速度较慢，也就是说，细胞外腺苷的生成量也会较低。

And so with females, right, it it just essentially means their rate of accumulation of sleep pressure is lower, which means that the production of extracellular adenosine would be lower.

目前还没有针对这一点进行过专门研究。

Now whether that's been studied, it hasn't.

不过，从理论上讲，基于大量关于睡眠压力积累和细胞外腺苷的研究，我们推测这就是其作用机制。

But, like, hypothetically, just knowing with all the, you know, myriad of studies around accumulating sleep pressure and extracellular adenosine, we predict that's the mechanism of action.

也就是说，这已经是我们目前能得出的最接近的结论了。

I mean, that that's the closest we can come

对。

Right.

到这个时候。

At this point.

对吧？

Right?

这样合理吗？

Is it fair?

这是不是个老套路？

Is it a trope?

我确实感觉到，我认识的男生和我认识的女生相比，你们男生入睡特别快。

I certainly know that it feels like the guys that I know versus the girls that I know, you guys fall asleep fast.

对。

Yep.

是啊。

Oh, yeah.

这个真的被证实过吗？

Is that actually been demonstrated?

我们有确切的证据吗？

Do we know that?

是的，这一点在临床前的转基因小鼠模型中已经得到了证实，用的是那种四核心基因型。

So that's been demonstrated, again, in these preclinical transgenic mouse models using the four core genotype.

在人类研究中也已经得到了证实。

It's also been demonstrated in in human studies.

所以在八十年代特里·李和雷切尔·曼伯做的那些研究里，他们发现的结果正是这样：男性入睡速度要快得多。

So in those studies that were done in the eighties by Terry Lee and Rachel Manber, that's exactly what they found is sleep onset for men is much quicker.

但如果你看进入恢复性睡眠的时间，也就是进入第三阶段非快速眼动睡眠和快速眼动睡眠的潜伏期，女性的潜伏期反而更短。

But then when you look at time to restorative sleep, so that entry into stage three non REM and then REM sleep, it is the latency is quicker for females.

所以她们可能花更长时间才能睡着，但一旦睡着，进入恢复性睡眠的速度要快得多，而且整晚的睡眠效率也更高。

So it might take them longer to fall asleep, but to get that restorative sleep, it's much quicker and then much more efficient across the night.

我们有没有什么目的论或者进化论上的推测，来解释为什么会有这种差异呢？

Do we have any teleological or evolutionary guess as to why that setup is there?

我觉得这一切都跟育儿有关。

I mean, I think it all goes back to child rearing.

对吧？

Right?

谁来负责照顾孩子呢？

Like, who's responsible for children?

对吧？

Right?

男人负责生育，但照顾孩子的事，通常是女人来做。

Men are responsible for propagating children, but, you know, women, like, they are the caretakers.

我认为这些神经化学和神经解剖上的差异，正是源于谁实际承担了育儿责任。

And I think these are these built in neurochemical, neuroanatomical circuits that exist because of, you know, relationships between who actually takes care of the child.

这其中，心理学和生物学各自占多大比例？

How much of it is if you know psychology versus biology there?

你常听到的说法是，女人更容易反复思考。

So the the classic thing you'll hear is like, oh, women ruminate more.

她们会更反复琢磨事情。

They think about stuff more.

她们更留意细节。

They're paying attention.

还是说，各种连锁反应还没开始呢？

Or is it simply any host of cascades haven't kicked off yet?

压力还不够大。

The the pressure isn't high enough.

我们有没有头绪？我觉得心理和生理因素都在起作用。

Do we have any idea what I'm I'm sure it's both are contributing.

不过

But

从我的角度看，这部分心理层面其实是生物基础的一部分，没错。

Well, I think that's the psychological aspect from my lens is a part of that biological Yep.

一种先天的模式。

Blueprint.

对吧？

Right?

因为女性在一天当中会保持更高的警觉性。

It's because females are going to have greater vigilance in across a day.

从神经化学的角度来看，警觉性到底是什么？

Well, what neurochemically is vigilance?

就是乙酰胆碱释放增加，以及大脑中像基底前脑这样的乙酰胆碱区域被激活，从而导致这种状态。

It's increased acetylcholine release and activation of acetylcholine areas of the brain, like the basal forebrain, that are going to lead to that.

但我看待世界的方式，还是偏向先天与后天的视角。

But, again, I see the world in from the lens of nature versus nurture.

所以我在心理学系里可能不是一个很合拍的同事。

So I'm not I'm not a very good colleague in in departments of psychology.

但你不是有心理学学位吗？

Well, you have a degree in psychology.

我本科是学心理学的，但其实真正让我感兴趣的是

I have an undergraduate degree in psychology, but really, it's

神经科学。

Neuroscience.

这完全是神经科学。

It's all neuroscience.

我很幸运，上的是个神经科学课程特别强的大学。

I was fortunate enough that, you know, I did go to a university that really thrived on its neuroscience curriculum.

所以。

So

不过我还是听说你是心理学家，而你刚才说的意思是，心理学其实误解了生理学。

Well, nonetheless, I heard you're a psychologist, and what I just heard you say was psychology has just misunderstood physiology.

我明白了。

I get it.

我懂了。

I get it.

你就是这个意思。

That's what you said.

医生。

Doctor.

布雷格说过这话。

Brager said it.

我敢打包票。

Hold my stamp to that.

乙酰胆碱。

Acetylcholine.

对。

Mhmm.

这是整体浓度更高造成的，还是受体密度的问题，或者两者都有？

Is that a total concentration issue that generally is higher, or is it a receptor density, or is it both?

我们对乙酰胆碱在男女之间的差异有什么了解吗？

Do we have any idea what are actually the sex differences between acetylcholine?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我的意思是，目前关于性别差异的研究，主要集中在基底前脑这个区域。

I mean, the studies that I know exist on sex differences focus on one particular area, which is the basal forebrain.

对吧？

Right?

这里是大脑内乙酰胆碱主要产生、释放和激活的地方。

That is the the seat of major acetylcholinergic production and release and activation within the brain.

然后还会对其他脑区产生连锁影响。

And then there's, like, cascading effects on other areas.

但说实话，我觉得这还是个充满未知的领域。

But, no, I I I actually think this is the land of great unknown.

确实如此。

Yeah.

其实关于性别差异与生理、行为的研究并不多。

Mean, there haven't been a lot studies on sex differences and and physiology and behavior.

就算有，也大多是八九十年代做的，现在呢？

And if there were, they were done again in the eighties and nineties and now you know?

你让我想回去查查PubMed和谷歌学术，看看有没有相关研究。

You got me curious about going back onto PubMed and Google Scholar and and looking this up.

不过

But

是的

Yeah.

从那以后没怎么做的那些研究，很多都是问卷调查。

I mean, the stuff that hasn't been done since then, a lot of it is questionnaires.

对

Yep.

对吧？

Right?

都是些精度比较低的数据，确实如此。

It is this like, pretty low fidelity stuff Yeah.

但这些还是有帮助的。

Which is good and helpful.

但是

But

你的意思是，你需要自我报告的数据。

I mean, you need self report.

就拿我们现在做的人类睡眠研究来说，虽然总会有客观的终点指标，比如内分泌或行为认知方面的测量，但这些都总是和自我报告搭配使用的。

I mean, with with our sleep studies that we do in humans now, right, we always have an objective endpoint endocrine or even behavioral cognitive measure, but it's always paired with self report.

有时候，正是自我报告的数据带来了更有意思的发现。

And sometimes the self report data is what lends the more interesting findings.

男女入睡的方式不一样。

So women, men fall asleep differently.

这个我们明白。

We get that.

那总的睡眠时长和醒来时间呢？

What about total duration and waking up time?

这方面有没有明显的性别差异？

Any sex differences that are notable there?

很高兴你问到这个问题，因为我觉得社交媒体上对这些数据的解读有点过头了。

So I'm happy you asked that because I feel like there have been that data has been taken a little bit too far on social media Mhmm.

说女性比男性需要更多睡眠，其实这种说法被夸大了。

That men that, excuse me, that women need more sleep than men.

确实，上世纪八十年代的研究就发现男女总睡眠时间有差异，大概相差二十五到三十分钟。

There is a difference in total sleep time between men and women that was found again in these studies in nineteen eighties, And it's about twenty five minutes to thirty minutes different.

但我想问的是，这个差异在临床上真的有意义吗？

But I come from this lens, is that clinically significant?

对。

Mhmm.

这个我没法给出明确答案，但我在社交媒体上看到很多人把这点曲解了，比如说，因为女性入睡慢，就得在床上躺九个半小时，而男性睡得快，八小时就够了。

And that I can't answer that, but I feel like in social media, that has been people have taken that information and abrunt with it that, you know, women need to spend you think I saw something recently, like, because women take this long to fall asleep, they need to be in bed for nine and a half hours versus a guy who, you know, falls asleep quickly.

他们觉得男性只要八小时就够了。

They only need to be in bed for eight.

我觉得再这么下去，反而会让人们对睡觉这件事产生焦虑，结果可能弊大于利。

And I think at a certain point, like, that's just gonna create anxiety around the act of sleeping that it's going to be more harmful than helpful.

那根据这个，我猜男人午睡的时间也比女人多。

I assume then also based on this, men nap more than women do.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

这一点我们是知道的。

We know that.

实验上早就证实了。

Like, we know that experimentally.

日常生活中也看得出来。

We know that anecdotally.

你看看世界各地那些有午睡习惯的文化。

You know, you just look at cultures around the world that have siestas.

对。

Mhmm.

而且人们普遍接受并认可白天小憩，我们都知道，从跨文化的角度来看，男性更容易感到白天犯困。

And or, you know, it's adopted and celebrated that, like, people nap during the day is we know that men, in general, cross cultures, are more prone to daytime sleepiness.

你知道吗，转基因小鼠也是这样。

Do you know if And transgenic mice too.

是的，没错。

Oh, yeah.

有这种说法。

Name there.

现在人们午睡的频率是比过去多了、少了，还是没变？

Are people napping more or less or the same than we have historically?

这个我就不知道了。

That, I don't know.

我的感觉是，至少在过去的十年里，大家对午睡的偏见已经减少了不少。

I mean, I feel like at least in the last ten years, that stigma around napping has been reduced, I would say.

不过，在军队里，这种看法依然存在。

I mean, it still exists in the military.

我觉得它不会消失。

I don't think it's it's going away.

我和我在沃尔特·里德医院的同事们发表了一篇论文，刊登在睡眠领域的顶级期刊上，题目就叫《职场午睡的污名化》。

We actually my colleagues and I from Walter Reed, we have a paper that we publish in the flagship journal of sleep about around it's called the stigma of workplace napping.

我们特意匿名引用了一些军方高层领导的话。

And we strategically anonymously took quotes from senior leaders in the military.

说实话，我们当时都惊呆了。

And, I mean, we were flabbergasted.

他们的态度很明确，就是不行。

They were like, no.

他们认为如果员工打盹，那就是偷懒。

If my employees nap, they're lazy.

他们觉得这样的人没效率。

Like, they're not productive.

我就想，你这话说得也太随意了。

And I'm like, you're okay.

我也不知道该说什么了。

I've just whatever.

你懂的吧。

You know?

这事我就不多说了。

No comment there.

不过说实话，我觉得这种偏见确实减轻了不少。

But, yeah, I I feel like the stigma has been reduced.

但我认为，在更早的年代，甚至几十年前，午睡反而比现在更受推崇。

But I would say I would argue that earlier in, you know, generations, decades earlier that napping was still more celebrated than it is today.

比如我知道，艾森豪威尔总统，当时还是将军的时候，就经常午睡。

I mean, I know, for example, president Eisenhower or then general Eisenhower used to nap.

比如在第二次世界大战期间，他每天都会小睡一会儿。

Like, in the middle of worldwide conflict in World War two, he took a nap every day.

这肯定很有好处。

Probably very beneficial.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

绝对没错。

Absolutely.

那我们对成功和不成功的午睡了解多少呢？

What do we know about successful versus unsuccessful napping?

关于午睡，时间必须控制在三十分钟以内。

In terms of a nap, it has to be thirty minutes or less.

我们知道，除了夜班工作者或者一些人

We do know that with the exception being a night shift worker or someone who

高糖饮食

Big sugar

问题。

issues.

长期睡眠不足。

Chronic insufficient sleep.

对吧？

Right?

建议是九十分钟完成一个完整的睡眠周期。

The recommendation there is ninety minutes to complete a full sleep cycle.

但临床数据表明，如果你平时睡眠充足，却午睡超过三十分钟，那当晚更容易出现入睡困难，或者睡眠节律紊乱。

But historically, what the clinical data has shown is if you are someone who normally gets sufficient sleep and you take a nap that is longer than thirty minutes, then you're more likely to have issues with sleep onset that night or just have issues with regularity in your your sleep.

不过也有研究显示，二十到三十分钟的午睡足以立即改善情绪、运动表现，甚至认知能力。

But there's also data to show that a twenty to thirty minute nap is sufficient for immediate improvements in mood, athletic performance, even cognitive performance.

你知道大概有多少人会午睡吗？

Do you have any sense of what percentage of people nap?

我没有。

I don't.

我觉得比例应该不高。

I would imagine it's it's fairly low.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我也觉得比例不高，除非你看看那些特定的文化群体。

I would I would think it's fairly low, except when you're talking about these microcosms of cultures.

对吧？

Right?

比如职业运动员，午睡完全被接受，甚至被当成一种荣耀。

Like, professional athletes, it seems to be completely acceptable and celebrated of of napping.

是的。

Yeah.

我敢打赌肯定有那么几个带头的，比如你刚才提到的勒布朗·詹姆斯。

And I'm sure there's a few ringleaders like, you know, I know LeBron James, you were just talking about that.

他特别推崇白天小睡，我听说他一天能睡好几次，但这跟文化背景有关。

He's a huge proponent of daytime naps, and I I've heard that he takes multiple naps across the the waking day, but it depends on the culture.

对吧？

Right?

我可以说，在我上班的地方，几乎没人午睡。

I can tell you in my workplace, very, very few people nap.

你知道的。

You know?

我根本睡不着午觉。

I struggle napping.

就是，我怎么也睡不着。

Like, it just does not work for me.

我也是，完全睡不着。

It doesn't work for me either.

如果我连续几天睡得不好，或者在旅行途中，我会躺下来，闭上眼睛休息一会儿。

If I have had a string of nights of insufficient sleep or if I'm traveling, I will lie down and, like, close my eyes for a bit.

但我觉得这可能跟我是那种高度活跃的ADHD人群有关。

But I think it's just the nature of being, like, a highly functional ADHD person.

我就是没法。

I can't

是的。

yeah.

如果我白天不小心，甚至故意睡着了，一整天都会觉得特别糟糕。

If I happen to fall asleep accidentally or even on purpose during the day, I'm going to just feel horrific the whole rest of the day.

对。

Mhmm.

整个人都会很不舒服。

I'm going to feel terrible.

没错。

Yep.

这是否说明我根本不该这么做？还是说有什么办法能让我睡完觉感觉好一点？干脆就别睡了？

Is that just a good indication I just shouldn't do it, or are there ways that I could change that so I feel feel better when I wake up, or should I just avoid it?

你提到这个挺有意思，最近流行一种叫‘咖啡小憩’的做法，就是小睡之前先喝点咖啡。

So it's interesting you say that because one of the things that has become more popular is this idea of Nappuccino or, like, having caffeine prior to a nap.

我听说，这个方法上世纪七十年代就被卡车司机们用上了。

And I learned anecdotally that this was adopted by the trucking industry in the nineteen seventies.

真的吗？

And Oh, no kidding.

原因在于，喝一杯咖啡或者任何含咖啡因的饮品——最好别选功能饮料——咖啡因要大约二十分钟才能起作用。

Reason behind it is, right, like a cup of coffee or any caffeine, preferably not an energy drink before a nap, It takes about twenty minutes for the adenosine receptors in your brain to be impacted.

所以在这二十分钟里，你可以小睡一会儿，醒来时反而更清醒，没那么昏沉，比不喝咖啡直接睡要好。

So in that twenty minutes, you can take a nap and then wake up feeling boosted or less groggy than you otherwise would without the caffeine.

这在实验室里也做过实验验证了。

And that has been experimentally tested in in the lab too.

什么样的情况下，你会觉得某人真的该小睡一下？

What circumstances need to happen for somebody for you to say, hey.

你该考虑小睡一会儿。

You should consider napping.

对吧？

Right?

怎么才能知道自己该不该小睡呢？

How does somebody know that they should think about napping?

你有没有什么标准，比如说……

Is there anything that you say, hey.

如果出现A、B、C这些情况，就说明你可能适合小睡，还是得自己去摸索？

If a, b, and c is going on, you might be a good candidate for napping, or is this something they just need to go figure out?

就我接触的那些人群来说，我觉得我自己就是个挺典型的例子。

So, I mean, in the populations I work with, right, like, I work in a world where most people I'd like to think I'm a good example.

不过也正因如此，我大概永远也当不上什么重要职位。

But, again, that's also why I'll never really amount to any, you know, position.

我觉得你已经担任过不少不错的职位了，尤其是在军队里，只是大部分我们都没法提。

Well, I I think you've already I think you've already amounted to plenty of pretty good positions within the military, but most of which we can't even talk about.

所以

So

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

就是长期睡眠不足。

Is chronic insufficient sleep.

对吧？

Right?

如果你每晚睡不够七到九个小时——具体因人而异——那就该小睡一会儿，或者在白天找个时间，安静地放松二十分钟，来缓解积累的睡意。

If you are not getting sufficient sleep, so most people between seven and nine hours a night, depending on who you are, you need to nap or you should nap or engaged in some sort of, like, twenty minute nonactivity throughout the waking day to help offset that accumulating sleep pressure.

对吧？

Right?

因为你早上醒来时，睡意已经很重了，因为晚上睡觉时没能有效释放它。

Because you're already waking up in the morning with a high level of sleep pressure because you weren't able to effectively release it at night when you sleep.

虽然我们对这类人群的建议是，嘿，

While we do recommend in those populations, like, hey.

尽量争取二十到三十分钟。我理解有些人很难进入那种心理状态，但这就是为什么现在有了科技手段来提供帮助。

Try to get twenty to thirty minutes, I understand that some people can't get in that mental headspace, but that's why we have things like technology now to assist.

我要特别感谢一下我们的好朋友 Shiftwave。

I mean, I'll give a shout out to our dear friends at Shiftwave.

我觉得这对我的那些战术类客户来说会是个很棒的工具，能帮他们让大脑放空，进入冥想和深呼吸的状态，哪怕只有十到十五分钟也好。

I think that is going to be a great tool, especially for the tactical populations I work with, to help them get into that headspace of just turning their brain off and getting into that meditative deep breath state even if it's for, like, ten to fifteen minutes.

我大部分的休闲时间都花在观察野生动物上。

I spend most of my recreational time paying attention to wildlife.

对。

Mhmm.

这是我的一大爱好。在我住的地方，我能出去看看黑尾鹿和麋鹿，我大部分的兴趣时间都花在这上面了。

It's a huge passion of mine if if we can go out and where I live, black tailed deer and elk and, like, that's that's what I spend most of my passion time on.

如果你经常和猎人、保护主义者、户外爱好者以及生物学家这些人混在一起，是的。

If you hang around people that do that, hunters and, conservationists and outdoors and biologists and stuff Yeah.

他们中午能一睡就是三个小时，跟玩儿似的。

They can take a three hour nap the middle of the day like nothing.

对啊。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

完全没压力。

Just nothing.

往那儿一躺，一睡就是好几个钟头。

They can go lay down and they're just gone for hours.

是啊。

Yeah.

我每次试都一样，躺在山边上，翻来覆去睡不着。

Every time I try that, I lay there on the side of a mountain and it's like rolling around.

根本不可能睡得着。

It's like zero chance this happening.

我觉得我大概知道你怎么想，但我觉得他们每天中午睡三个小时，这恐怕不算什么健康的生活习惯。

I think I know your answer here, but I would assume that not a not a healthy behavior that they have with sleeping for three hours a day in the middle of the day.

这么说他们睡眠方式有问题，你认同吗？

Is is that a fair characterization of a poor sleep strategy?

我倒要跟你换个角度看，因为在托马斯·爱迪生推广电力之前，人类本来就是这么睡的。

So I'm gonna actually challenge you on that because that's how human that's how humans used to sleep before Thomas Edison commercialized electricity.

换句话说，多阶段睡眠其实是人类在进化过程中长期形成的习惯。

Like so that was, like, multiphasic sleep was what, through the course of human evolution, used to practice.

如果你去看看原住民社区，他们到现在还是这样：晚上睡四个小时，然后醒四个小时。

And, honestly, if you look at indigenous communities, they still practice that, where they have, like, four hours of sleep at night, and then there's four hours of wakefulness.

接着是日出后的活动，下午再安排三到四个小时的午休。

And then they have morning, you know, sunrise activity, and then they have a three, four hour period in the middle of the afternoon.

这样安排，其实跟人体的生物钟完全吻合。

Now it makes sense when you look at the circadian clock.

对吧？

Right?

因为在一天的二十四小时里，有两个生理节律的高峰和两个低谷。

Because there's two circadian peaks and two circadian troughs throughout the twenty four hour period.

第一个低谷很明显是在半夜。

The first dip, obviously, is in the middle of the night.

那时候，也就是凌晨两点到四点之间，受生物钟调控的核心体温会降到一天中的最低点。

That's when, you know, core body temperature driven by the circadian clock is its lowest between two and 4AM.

不过，对于大多数人来说，下午两点到四点之间，生物钟发出的警觉信号会出现第二个低谷。

But then there's a second dip in the circadian alertness signal in the middle of the afternoon, for most people between two and four.

所以这时候建议大家去睡觉或者小憩一下，是很合理的。

And so that's why it is good to push people towards sleeping or napping during this time.

那些靠打猎采集生活、保持传统生活方式的人，其实只是在顺应他们天然的生物钟，毕竟那时候还没有工业化带来的各种干扰。

But people who, you know, live off the land and live a more indigenous lifestyle, they're just catering to their natural circadian rhythm, pre, you know, industrialized exposure.

那这些人能保持完全健康吗？

And do we think that those people can be perfectly healthy?

有没有什么理由觉得这种生活方式其实有问题？

Is there any reason to think that that is actually a problem?

没有。

No.

说实话，我觉得这根本不是问题。

I don't think there's an issue at all, to be honest with you.

因为你并没有违背人类的进化和生理规律。

I mean, it's you're you're not fighting against human evolution and biology.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你看看大多数慢性病的情况

Because if you look at most chronic disease states

是的。

Yeah.

在我们国家，这些问题恰恰源于违背了进化和生理规律。

In the country, it's because of fighting against evolution and biology.

而且，这也回到你的观点：尽管证据有限，但确实有研究显示，当一个人的生物钟类型与自身天然节律不匹配时，健康风险会增加。

And also too, like, it goes back to your point of, I think there is evidence for as limited as there is between people who are one chronotype and then try to be the other chronotype and looking at morbidity and mortality.

最典型的例子就是倒班工人。

Perfect example, shift workers.

对吧？

Right?

上夜班的人，平均寿命会缩短大约十五年。

People who do night shift work have an estimate of a fifteen years decrease in their lifespan.

十五年？

Fifteen.

整整十五年。

Fifteen years.

有一项大规模的流行病学研究，还结合了对夜班或轮班工人寿命的长期追踪，发现他们的寿命确实缩短了十五年。

So there's a large scale epidemiological study that looked at cancer rates as well as longitudinal study of lifespan of night shift workers or rotating shift workers.

而且，各类癌症的发病率也明显上升。

And their lifespan was reduced by fifteen years.

他们患癌的风险全面升高。

They had significant increases in cancers across the board.

不只是某一种癌症，而是各种类型的癌症都明显增加。

So not just a particular cancer, but all different types of bodily cancers.

连世界卫生组织都把轮班工作列为二级致癌物。

And then even the World Health Organization has labeled shift work as a level two carcinogen.

哦。

Oh.

这其实是在违背我们自身的生物进化和基因设定。

And it goes goes back to fighting against our, you know, evolution in biology and what our genetic program is.

他们一般怎么定义轮班工作？

How do they generally define shift work?

具体是哪些工作时间？

What hours of work?

是夜班，还是倒班？

Or is it overnight, or is it, like, swing shift?

到底什么样的工作才算轮班？

Like, what counts as shift work?

说到轮班工作，我们通常指的是那些晚上十一点上班，上夜班的人。

When we say shift work, we're usually talking about people who start work at 11PM, work the graveyard shift.

对吧？

Right?

晚上十一点上班，早上七点下班。

11PM, get off 7AM.

本期节目由 LMNT 赞助播出。

Today's episode is sponsored by LMNT.

LMNT是一种电解质饮料粉，含有钠、钾和镁的理想比例，而且不含糖。

LMNT is an electrolyte drink mix that has an ideal electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium, but no sugar.

补水对表现至关重要，无论是身体表现还是脑力表现。

Hydration is critical to performance, both physical and mental performance.

无数研究都表明，即使是轻微的脱水，哪怕只有一百分之一，也会导致身体输出和脑力表现的下降。

Countless studies have shown that even a slight degree of dehydration, even as small as one percent, can lead to decreases in physical output and mental performance.

我们还知道，电解质对于正确补水至关重要，这一点我强调了很多年，但光喝水是无法实现正确补水的。

We also know that electrolytes are critical to proper hydration, which I've been harping on for years, but you can't do that, proper hydration, by only drinking water.

你得摄入适量且比例恰当的电解质，这正是我如此推崇LMNT的原因。

You need to get the right amount of electrolytes in the right ratios, and that's why I'm a huge fan of LMNT.

事实上，很多听众应该还记得，差不多五年前，我在YouTube上关于补水优化的系列视频里就推荐过LMNT。

In fact, many of you will probably remember that I featured LMNT in my YouTube series on optimizing hydration nearly five years ago.

我当时推荐它，是因为它的配方——一千毫克钠、两百毫克钾、六十毫克镁——在市面上真的独一无二。

I featured LMNT in these videos because their blend of a thousand milligrams of sodium, two hundred milligrams potassium, and sixty milligrams of magnesium really is unique and different than any other electrolyte on the market.

而且它的科学依据非常扎实。

And it has great scientific support.

我平时一直在用LMNT，尤其是大量出汗的时候，也经常把它纳入客户的健康优化方案中。

I use LMNT constantly, particularly when I'm sweating a lot and I routinely make it a part of my client's optimization programs.

如果你想试试Element，可以去drinklmnt.com/perform，购买任何一款Element饮品，就能免费领取一份试用装。

If you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinklmnt.com/perform to claim a free Element sample pack with the purchase of any Element drink mix.

再次提醒，去drinklmnt.com/perform，免费领试用装。

Again, that's drinklmnt.com/perform to claim a free sample pack.

本期节目还由帕克大学赞助。

Today's episode is also brought to you by Parker University.

帕克大学是全球唯一一所专门致力于人类表现研究的大学。

Parker is the only university in the world dedicated exclusively to human performance.

而且，它现在也是我的新学术家园。

And it's also my new academic home.

我第一次听说帕克，是在参加他们的神经科学研讨会之后，当时简直震惊了。

I first heard of Parker after attending their Neurocon seminar and was stunned.

我去过无数诊所和会议，但没有一家能跟帕克的研讨会相提并论。

I've been to countless clinics and conferences and nobody is even close to Parker seminars.

讲师、场地安排和整体体验，真的让人瞠目结舌。

The speakers, the setup and the experience are frankly jaw dropping.

他们所有的研讨会都很出色，但即将到来的迈阿密大会，六月六号到八号举办的，尤其特别。

All of their seminars are great, but the upcoming Miami show, which is June sixth through eighth, is going to be extra special.

这次大会将邀请我的朋友，加布里埃尔·莱昂博士，以及健身专家杰夫·卡瓦利尔等特别嘉宾。

It's featuring special guests like my friends, Doctor.

还有更多重量级人物会出席。

Gabrielle Lyon, and fitness expert, Jeff Cavalier, and plenty more.

但不仅如此，我还会亲自举办一场联合研讨会。

But on top of that, I'm actually hosting a personal co seminar.

主题是力量训练的实际应用。

That's all about the practical side of strength training.

这和帕克项目的理念完美契合。

And that blends perfectly with the Parker program.

想象一下，先参加一场关于神经系统运作的精彩讲座，然后马上过来，和我一起实际练举重。

So imagine going to a phenomenal lecture on how the nervous system works and then popping over and lifting weights with me personally.

全通票现在已经开始发售，特价仅需249美元，但随着日期临近，价格会上涨，千万别拖延。

All access tickets are on sale now, but at a special rate of only $249 But these will increase as the dates get closer, so do not wait.

你没听错。

And yes, you heard that right.

249美元就能获得帕克研讨会的全部入场资格，包括展览区、夜间活动，以及我和丹·加纳在健身房里的指导训练。

Dollars $2.49 gets you full access to the entire Parker Seminar, exhibit hall, nightlife events, plus a learning and lifting in the gym with myself and Dan Garner.

想查看具体日程、完整讲师名单，或报名参加，请访问 parkersseminars.com。

To see the exact schedule, full list of speakers, and get signed up, visit parkersseminars.com.

再强调一遍，网址是 parkersseminars.com。

One more time, that's parkersseminars.com.

我真的很期待在那里见到你。

I can't wait to see you there.

我们公司里有很多医护人员、消防员和警察，他们经常要值夜班，不同单位的排班政策差别很大。

We have dealt of actually in our a number of our companies, we've dealt with a lot of surgeons, medicine, nurses, firefighters, police, and they have to work There at some are better and there are worse policies for that.

有些人是连续上四天白班，再连上四天夜班。

We've seen some people where they like four days day shift, four days night shift.

这种排班方式对他们的健康来说简直是灾难。

You can't design a worse possible setup for those individuals.

如果因为工作需要，有人非得值夜班，那也没办法。

So if somebody has to work night shift because we have we we need it.

对吧？

Right?

我们确实需要外科医生。

We need surgeons.

我们需要医生、护士和军人。

We need physicians and nurses and Military.

对吧？

Right?

军人。

Military.

对吧？

Right?

我们国家的战争是在夜间打赢的。

We win our nation's wars at night.

我们需要能在夜间工作的人员。

We need people who can operate at night.

如果非得让这些人上夜班，该怎么安排才能让他们出错最少呢？

How do how do you then set them up for least amount of failure if they have to work night shift?

你问得真巧，我感觉就像又回到了研究生时期的论文答辩现场。

So that it's funny you ask that because I feel like I'm back in my dissertation defense in graduate school.

就这么办。

Do it.

但我觉得，正是在这种情况下，遗传学和基因筛查工具的价值才体现出来——为什么不提前筛选出那些更适合夜间工作的人呢？

But I think that's where the power of genetics and, like, are these genetic screening tools come into play is in this circumstance, why not preselect people who are more optimal at night for these types of positions?

我知道，在医学领域，这可能会有点争议。

I I know it, like, in medicine, like, that might be a little bit more controversial.

但回到我所服务的那些群体，我确实希望安排擅长夜间作战的人，来赢得战争、减少伤亡、提升作战效能，诸如此类。

But, again, like, going back to communities, like, where the ones I work in is, I would want to have people who are good at operating at night to win our nation's wars, to reduce casualties, to, you know, increase combat effectiveness, things like that.

有办法检测出这种特质吗？

Are there tools to screen for that?

你知道有没有什么生物标志物？

Do you know are there are there markers?

有没有什么测试方法？

Are there tests?

如果我们想自己做这种评估，有没有办法？

Can we do where if somebody wants to just do this on their own, so they wanna figure out, hey.

我正在考虑接这份工作。

I'm considering taking this job.

这工作是不是夜班？

It's a night shift job or not.

我想知道自己适不适合夜班。

I wanna know if I'm there.

你知道有什么靠谱的方法能检测这个吗？

Do you know of any effective tools for that stuff?

就是往管子里吐口水，寄到实验室做分析就行了。

I mean, you just spit in the tube and send it off to the lab for analysis.

就这么简单。

That's all it is.

其实已经有明确的基因标记了，比如和早起或晚睡倾向相关的单核苷酸多态性。

I mean, there's robust known genetic markers, you know, single nucleotide polymorphisms that are linked to being a morning person and evening person.

我们早就知道PER2基因的那些SNP位点了。

I mean, we know those PER two SNPs.

就是这个基因，昼夜节律基因，PER2。

That's the that's the gene, the circadian clock gene, PER two.

PER2？

Per two?

对。

Yep.

任何基因检测公司都可以做吗？还是说有些公司做的检测套件更靠谱一些？

And that can be any genetic company, or is there particular ones that that sell kits that test for these that are better than others?

据我所知，大多数基因检测公司都会检测这个SNP位点。

To the best of my knowledge, most of these genetic screening companies will will test for this SNP.

明白了。

Okay.

几乎就靠这一个位点就能判断了，是吧。

And it is it's almost as simple as that one marker Uh-huh.

没错。

That is Yeah.

这是因为，在动物实验模型中已经发现，而且在大规模的人类基因组研究中也证实了，昼夜节律基因确实会发生变化。

Well, it is because that's what, you know, has been identified in preclinical animal models and, again, has been shown in large scale genome genomic wide studies in humans is, yep, changes in the circadian clock genes.

是哪一个来着？

Which one was that one?

还是刚才说的那个，Per two。

Again, just Per two.

Per two。

Per two.

明白了。

Okay.

Per two 和晚上型作息有关，而 Per one 则和早上型作息相关。

So Per two is associated with an evening chronotype, and Per one is associated with a morning chronotype.

晚上型、早上型和中间型的人各占多少比例？

What percentage of people are evening versus morning versus somewhere in the middle?

我们对这些的了解，主要不是来自基因研究，而是靠一个已经用了快四十年的成熟问卷。

So we know most of this not from the genetic work, but from this robust questionnaire that's been around for, honestly, forty years.

这叫晨昏倾向问卷。

It's called the morning eveningness questionnaire.

实际上，蒂尔·罗嫩堡医生开发了一个更新的改良版，加入了社会因素的影响。

I mean, there's a a newer modified version of this that doctor Till Ronenburg has created to include social influences.

但根据这项问卷的大规模流行病学研究，大约百分之八十的人属于中间类型。

But based on just, again, large scale epidemiological population based studies of this questionnaire, about eighty percent of us are intermediate types.

也就是说，我们通常在晚上十点左右睡觉，早上六点左右起床。

Meaning, right, we normally go to bed or prefer to go to bed around 10PM, wake up around 6AM.

是的。

Yeah.

大概有百分之十的人像我这样，偏向夜间型。

You have ten percent of the population who are like me who are more evening types.

不过我并不是极端的夜间型。

Now I'm not an extreme evening type.

我觉得我以前更偏向那种类型。

I feel like I used to be.

但随着年龄增长，我的生物钟就像大多数人一样，逐渐提前了。

But as I've gotten older, right, my clock is now phase advancing like most people when they age.

是的。

Yeah.

他们喜欢半夜十二点、十二点半才睡，早上八点半起床。

Who prefer to go to bed around midnight, 12:30, wake up eight, 08:30.

还有另外百分之十，像你这样的人，是早起型，喜欢九点就睡，四点就醒。

And then the other 10% are these people like you who are the morning types who prefer to go to bed at nine and wake up at 4AM.

你懂的吧。

You know?

我老婆就是这样的。

That's how my wife is.

她一直都是这样。

It's indefinitely.

没错。

It's Yeah.

九点。

09:00.

我们就说九点吧。

We'll just say 09:00.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

如果你问我老婆，她会说

If you ask my wife, she'd be like

你老婆是夜猫子吗？

Is your wife a night owl?

不是。

No.

她更偏向夜猫子。

She's more of a night owl.

对。

Yeah.

我们刚认识那会儿，她都是十一点半才睡，差不多十一点多。

She was when like, when we first met, she was 11:30, like eleven.

明白。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

大概早上六点起床之类的。

Wake up at six sort of thing.

对。

Yeah.

这些年下来，她的作息慢慢也往我这边靠拢了。对。

And now over the years, like, she's drifted way down towards me Yeah.

现在基本同步了。

Where she's there.

我肯定早睡，特别是要不是有孩子的话，八点就躺下了。

I'm definitely, like if I especially if I didn't have kids, like, 08:00, I'm in bed.

是的。

Yeah.

百分之百。

Like, a thousand percent.

是的。

Yeah.

可她呢，就是不行。

And then she's just like, no.

根本不可能。

Like, not gonna happen.

快起来。

Like, get up.

我们得去干点事儿了。

We have to go do whatever.

等孩子睡了，我们俩一起看电影什么的，根本不可能。

The the likelihood of us, like, watching a movie or something after the kids go to bed, zero.

根本就不可能发生。

Like, it's just, like, not gonna happen.

挺有意思的，我虽然是单身汉，但每次和老婆待在一起时，情况也一样。

It's funny because well, I'm a geo bachelor, but, like, when I do get to spend some time with my wife, it's the same way.

我得想办法，

It's just I have to, like

她太懒了。

She's dumb.

得激励她一下，我可是你老婆啊。

Motivate her to I am your wife, essentially.

我得去鼓励我老婆，

Like, I have to motivate my wife to

你们俩之间这四小时的间隔，真是精准啊。

Like a four hour shift between you guys Exactly.

当你想爬起来做点什么的时候。

When you wanna get up and do stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

我在北卡罗来纳，她人在佛罗里达，等她准备睡觉的时候，差不多是早上七点四十五到八点，我刚从健身房出来，回家吃晚饭，之后还能再独享两个多小时，才上床休息。

Where I am in North Carolina and she's in Florida, by the time she's going to bed, I am which is around, like, 07:45, eight, I am just leaving the gym to go home and eat dinner and have an extra two, two and a half hours of my day before I go to bed.

你是不是也跟我老婆一样，两个人能沉默三十分钟？

Are you like my wife where we will be silent for, like, thirty minutes?

对。

Mhmm.

就在床上啊，或者随便哪儿，我正想着终于可以睡了，结果她突然来一段深度对话。

Like, in bed or whatever, and I'm like, finally, like, time to go to sleep.

非得来点深刻的交流不可。

And then some like, there has to be some deep conversation happen.

就像突然急转弯一样，非要聊个大话题。

Like, it's just like a whiplash, like, talk about some big thing.

我心想，天哪。

I'm like, oh my god.

她总是这样。

Like but she's, like, always does that.

这简直太老套了。

It's a it's a bad cliche.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

你是在开玩笑吗？

Are you joking?

不是。

No.

我说真的。

I I am.

对。

Yes.

她就是让我别说了。

She's just like, stop.

别跟我讲话了。

Like, stop talking to me.

然后我就在对话中间不知不觉睡着了。

And then I'll just, like, drift off into sleep in the middle of the conversation.

我已经不在状态了。

Oh, I'm gone.

在那段对话里，我确实完全走神了。

Like, I'm definitely gone in that conversation.

对啊。

Yeah.

好多次我都听她讲故事听到一半就睡着了，实在撑不住了。

It's like so many times I've fallen asleep in the middle of her story because I'm just like, I can't.

对啊。

Yeah.

我彻底不行了。

I'm done for.

对。

Yep.

不对。

No.

没错。

That's yeah.

我也是这样。

That's me too.

好的。

Alright.

我确实符合这个刻板印象。

I fit that stereotype.

太棒了。

Fantastic.

是的

Yeah.

我刚才在问你，有没有人不是完全多相睡眠，但白天会分几次睡觉，每次睡几个小时。

Was asking you earlier about people that have this, not quite polyphasic, but multiple sleep, several hours of sleep during the day.

在我那个世界里，这种情况通常是因为阳光，你白天在外面忙活，等回到营地时，做完各种事，只剩下四五个钟头能睡，然后又得爬起来喂马、做别的事，是的。

In the world I come from, that's often because of sunlight, where you're out doing stuff, you head back towards camp, and then by the time you get back and do stuff, and then you only have four hours or five hours where you gotta get get back up again, feed the horses, do things Yeah.

所以你得在日出前就起来。

So you can get out before sunrise.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yep.

那你就会睡三到四个小时，那边睡得更多。

So then you have three to four hours of sleep, you're gonna sleep more there.

是的

Yeah.

我知道你在军队里做过不少工作。

I know you've done a bunch of work in, of course, the military.

对。

Mhmm.

那里头可有不少团队。

Tons of groups in there.

你还跟宇航员合作过。

You've done stuff with astronauts.

是吧？

Right?

你还在南极做过项目。

You've done stuff in Antarctica.

对。

Mhmm.

是吧？

Right?

没错。

So Yep.

当光线不是提示信号，或者根本不存在的时候，你是怎么应对的？

How do you handle it when you have when light is either not the cue, it's not there at all times.

对。

Mhmm.

你在太空中。

You're up in space.

那里光线一直都在。

It's there at all times.

当光线完全不参与作息，或者至少不像地球上那样有规律时，你怎么安排睡眠？

How do you manage a sleep schedule when light is completely eliminated from the equation or maybe not eliminated, but you know what I mean.

也就是说，作息完全乱了。

Like, it's completely off schedule.

是的。

Yeah.

这恰恰说明了睡眠系统的强大，即使在这么极端的环境下也能正常运作。

So that's actually what speaks to the robustness of the sleep system is, like, work in these extreme environments.

我拿我们在南极的研究做个例子吧。

And I'll use our study in Antarctica as an example.

说实话，到目前为止，这可能是我参与过的最酷的项目了。

So, honestly, to date, that is probably the coolest project that I got to be a part of.

这还不算酷吗？

How could it not be?

我们对那里的睡眠情况做了一整年的长期跟踪研究。

So we did essentially a year long longitudinal assessment of sleep down.

这项研究其实是和阿根廷海军合作开展的。

It's it was actually in collaboration with the Argentinian Navy.

他们在南极有个海军基地，叫贝尔格拉诺二号，是全球最南端的地点。

So they have this navy base down there called Belgrano 2, and it's actually the southernmost point in the world.

有意思的是，那里一年中有六个月处于极夜，就像在国际空间站上一样，你有食物、水和物资供应，也有医疗后送保障。

And what's interesting is six months of the year, like, they have axe it's kind of like being stationed on the International Space Station is you have access to food, water, resources, and then medevac.

但另外六个月，如果有人突发医疗状况，他们只能自己应对。

But the other six months of the year, if something happens medically, they have to figure it out.

对吧？

Right?

所以冬天的时候压力特别大，因为他们既得不到充足的食物，也完全无法与外界联系。

So there's a lot of stress during the winter because they don't have access to food resources or any contact with the outside human

因为天气原因，飞机根本无法起降。

get a plane in and out because of weather.

没错，就是受天气影响。

You can't, yeah, because of the weather.

所以我们用了活动记录仪，这个嘛，

And so what we did was we used actigraphs, which Yeah.

仍然是临床认可的睡眠监测工具。

You know, still are clinical grade measures of sleep.

两周的活动记录仪数据，相当于睡眠实验室里一整晚的多导睡眠图结果。

Two weeks worth of actigraph data translates to a night of in in a sleep lab, so a night of polysomnography.

是的。

Yeah.

这是戴在手腕上的设备。

This is this is a wrist wearable.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

而且它非常坚固耐用。

And and and it's extremely durable.

我们曾把这些设备带到战场，回来后依然完好无损地工作。

I mean, we've taken these wearables out into combat zones, and they've come back working completely fine.

所以它们是专门设计来应对极端环境的。

So they're made to withstand these extreme conditions.

我们发现，人员在南极驻扎期间，睡眠结构会随着季节从夏季到冬季发生变化。

And what we found is the structure of sleep across this time being stationed in Antarctica does change from the summer to the winter.

比如在冬天，睡眠的次数少了，但每次睡得更久。

So for example, in the winter, there's fewer sleep episodes, but the sleep episodes are longer.

到了夏天，睡眠次数变多了，但每次睡得更短。

And then in the summer, there's more sleep episodes, but the sleep episodes are shorter.

不过，如果看全天24小时的总睡眠时间，冬天和夏天其实是一样的。

But when you look at overall daily twenty four hour sleep amounts, they're the same, winter versus summer.

更有趣的是，这还会影响生理指标、血压，以及认知表现。

And what's really interesting is that also lends to changes in physiology, blood pressure, and cognitive performance too.

我们当时也在南极测量了血压。

So we also measured blood pressure down there.

我们一天测四次血压，就是为了捕捉昼夜节律的高峰期和低谷期。

So we did four times a day, they did blood pressure measurements because they wanted to catch, like, you know, predicted times at the circadian peak versus circadian trough.

是的。

Mhmm.

同样，我们还用了衡量警觉性的金标准——心理运动警觉性测试。

And then same with the gold standard for vigilance, which is the psychomotor vigilance test.