第247期……现代大学的失败——阿拉斯代尔·麦金泰尔

大家好。

Hello, everyone.

我是史蒂文·韦斯特。

I'm Steven West.

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This is Philosophize This.

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希望今天这期节目你会喜欢。

I hope you love the show today.

在阿拉斯代尔·麦金太尔的《哲学的任务》第七章里，他让我们想象这样一个场景：几个朋友约好某天聚一聚。

So in chapter seven of Alasdair MacIntyre's book, The Task of Philosophy, he asked us to imagine a scene of a few friends that decide they're gonna get together one day.

他们坐在一家小餐馆的桌子旁，点着餐，聊着再平常不过的天。

They're sitting at a table, in a diner, ordering food, having a very normal conversation.

他说，想象一下，就在这个时候，有个人突然开口问朋友：我们活着到底有什么意义？

He says, imagine if in this moment, one of the people speaks up and they ask their friends, what is the real point of even existing?

既然活在这个世界上，我们为什么还要努力去做任何事呢？

Why shouldn't we all just give up on trying to do anything when we're in this world?

这其实是个哲学问题。

You know, a philosophical question.

桌上的其他人听到这话，自然感到有点尴尬，不知该怎么回答。

The other people at the table hear this person and they understandably feel a little uncomfortable having to answer it.

也许有个人觉得，谈这么私密的话题简直让人难为情。

Maybe one of them feels embarrassed to even have to talk about something so personal.

对另一个人来说，这种问题正是他们一直想躲开的。

Maybe to another friend, this is the very kind of question they're constantly trying to find ways to avoid.

我说的就是，这个在餐厅里的瞬间，特别刺人。

It's an abrasive moment, this moment in the diner is what I'm saying.

但接着，麦金泰尔让我们想象另一个场景，和这个并列出现。

But then MacIntyre asked us to imagine a different scene side by side with this one.

现在想象一下，有一位哲学家站在一间满是其他哲学家的研讨会上，面前是一群学者。

Now imagine there's a philosopher who's standing up in front of a room of other philosophers at a seminar among academics.

想象他问的还是同一个问题，但这次用的是哲学圈里常见的术语和表达方式。

Imagine they ask the exact same content of the question, but maybe in this case, ask it in a way that's filtered through terms and language that are common within the field of philosophy.

当这个问题在研讨会上提出来时，房间里没人觉得有什么不对劲。

When it's asked at the seminar, nobody in that room even bats an eyelash at the question.

没人感到一丝不适。

Nobody is uncomfortable there.

为什么同一个问题，在一个场合让人觉得是在挑战生存本身，而在另一个场合却没人当回事？

So how come in one moment this question is taken as something that's a challenge to the very existence of the people that hear it, but in the other moment nothing?

对阿尔萨斯·麦金太尔来说，一旦你明白了这个问题的答案，你就会意识到两件关于你所处世界的重要事情。

To Alasdair MacIntyre, once you know the answer to this question, he thinks you'll realize two things that are very important about the world you live in.

第一件事，关乎哲学在我们这种百科全书式世界观影响下发生了怎样的变化。

One has to do with how philosophy has changed under the encyclopedic view that we have of things.

第二件事，则关乎现代大学这个机构本身——他认为，大学培养出的思考者类型，值得被深刻批评。

And two, is something deeply important about the university as a modern institution that he thinks deserves a lot of criticism for the kinds of thinkers it regularly produces.

我们会在本集末尾谈到他对此的所有看法，但我觉得先更清楚地描绘一下餐厅里的场景会更有帮助。

We'll get to all that he has to say about it by the end of this episode, but I think it's helpful to first clarify the scene in the diner a bit more.

对麦金泰尔来说，餐厅里的人和 seminar 里的人反应截然不同，是因为在餐厅里，这个问题是真正地抛给一个活生生的人，关乎他们在这个世界上的真实处境。

See, to MacIntyre, the reason the people in the diner reacted so differently to the people in the seminar is because in the diner, this is a real difficult question that's being asked of a real person about the stakes of their actual life on this planet.

我的意思是，你这样提出一个哲学问题，能认真对待它的人本来就不多。

I mean, you ask a philosophical question in this way, and there's just gonna be a certain number of people brave enough to take it seriously.

而其中，又会有一部分人听完后，直接经历一场深刻的 existential 危机。

And there's gonna be a certain number of those people that have a full blown existential event because they heard it.

就像一个人独自参加自己的婚礼派对，突然问自己：我的人生到底去哪儿了？

A sort of where did my life go wedding reception that I go to with myself.

这其实挺能理解的。

It's understandable.

但他指出，相比之下，如今的学术圈里，哲学往往被简化成一种类似专业技术的技能。

But he says contrast that with the philosophical seminar where in today's academy, it often takes the form of reducing philosophy into something like a professional technical skill.

当然，这种技能，那些受过长期专业训练的资深学者们掌握得非常娴熟。

Now, to be clear, this is a skill that is navigated brilliantly by seasoned experts that are extensively trained in their field.

没人否认这一点。

No one's denying that.

但他想说的是，把哲学当成一种技术技能的这种态度，往往让从事哲学的人脱离了那些最初让人真正关心哲学的深层问题。

But his point is that this whole attitude of thinking of philosophy as a technical skill often separates the people that are doing philosophy from the deeper questions that gave anyone a reason to care about philosophy in the first place.

为了说明他的观点，我想先说一句：对麦金太尔而言，哲学从根本上总是源于某种真实人生经验中的裂隙或触动。

To get started explaining his point here, let me just say that philosophy at bottom for MacIntyre always begins with some sort of a rift or attention within a real human experience.

也就是说，有史以来，我们提出的哲学问题从来不是凭空在大学教室里凭空创造出来的抽象概念。

Meaning for all recorded history, the questions that we ask in philosophy have not been magically created out of abstractions in a university classroom somewhere.

任何这种更高层次的抽象问题，追根溯源，最初都来自某个真实的人——他们生活在某种生活方式中，当社群遭遇危机时，被迫去追问更深层的意义。

Any question that goes on at a higher level of abstraction like that can be traced back originally to some actual person that was rooted in a way of life where the community ran into some kind of a crisis that made them feel forced to ask deeper questions about it.

对麦金太尔来说，哲学的起点，是那些曾经管用的老答案，突然不再管用了的时候。

See, philosophy begins for MacIntyre when the old answers that used to do the job for us no longer do the job anymore.

关键是，后来在研讨会上展开的哲学辩论，对麦金太尔而言，往往早在更早的时候，就源于某个普通人试图理解真实困境的体验。

And the point is what later becomes a philosophical debate that's going on at the seminar usually started much earlier for MacIntyre and the experience of a human being trying to make sense of a real problem.

这就是为什么麦金太尔称哲学探讨的问题根植于‘普通人’的困境——他这么说绝不是贬义。

This is why MacIntyre calls the questions that we explore in philosophy as rooted in the problems of plain persons, he says, which isn't a pejorative by any means.

对他来说，这正是让哲学重新回到真正关乎我们生活的那些根本问题上。

For him, this is a reuniting of philosophy with the causes that actually matter to us.

而这就是麦金太尔认为我们当今所处世界的奇怪之处。

And that's the strange thing about the world that MacIntyre thinks we live in now.

你想想，我们生活在这样一个充满成见的体系里，这个体系他已经在前三期里反复讲过了——我们被训练得把那些深刻的人类问题，跟日常生活中扮演的种种角色完全割裂开来。

Consider for a second just how much of our lives, you know, living in the encyclopedic set of assumptions he's been talking about for three episodes now, consider how much we've been trained to think of these deeper human questions like they're a totally separate thing from the roles we play in the world with most of our day.

举个例子，想象一位医生拿到了病人的检查报告，得告诉对方一个坏消息。

For example, imagine a doctor that gets someone's test results back and they got to give a person some bad news about their health.

这位医生可能会想：在这种情况下，我该透露多少信息才合适？

That doctor might ask, well, what level of disclosure here is necessary on my part?

我该告诉对方哪些内容？又该怎么说才恰当？

What information do I got to give this person and how do I say it to them correctly?

而在我们这种百科全书式的文化里，他可能会去查法律是怎么规定的。

And in an encyclopedic culture like ours, they may answer that question by considering what the law is.

你知道，那些法律是经过多年调整，专门为了保护人们而制定的。

You know, a law that has been designed and adjusted over the years to help protect people.

但这里的法律，只是在回应一个更深层的哲学问题：在这一刻，一个人对自己的身体信息究竟该得到什么？为什么这重要？

But the law here is just in reference to the deeper philosophical question of what is a human being owed in this moment when it comes to information about their body and why is that?

而这个问题本身，又指向一个更根本的疑问：人到底是一种什么样的存在，以至于真相、希望、死亡这些事对他们来说真的有意义？

And even this just references an even deeper question you could ask of what kind of a being is a human where things like truth, hope, death even matter to them in the first place?

你有没有注意到，在这个情境里，医生在医学技术上可能是专家，却对医学实践背后那些道德根基完全毫无觉察。

Notice how easy it is for the doctor in this scenario to be a total expert when it comes to medicine, a technical skill, but be completely oblivious to the moral foundations that their shared practice of medicine is steeped in.

他们完全脱离了我们为何需要有人去研究医学的那些根本原因。

To be removed from the reasons why it's important to us to have people studying medicine at all.

事实上，这个人每天在照顾病人时所遵循的种种技术流程，按照麦金泰尔的说法，都深深植根于我们之前讨论过的那些价值预设。

The fact is, so many of the technical procedures this person follows every day when it comes to giving patients care, they are rooted for MacIntyre in these underlying assumptions about values we've been talking about.

这些更深层的道德问题，作为医生，他们可能真的从未认真思考过。

The answers to these deeper moral questions that just as a doctor, they genuinely may be a person that's never even considered this stuff seriously.

他的意思是，尤其在被百科全书式思维主导的文化里，那些最受过高等教育、能力最强的人，把哲学搁置一旁，把它当成众多可选项中的一个，实在太普遍了。

What he's saying is that especially in cultures dominated by the encyclopedic viewpoint, it is all too common for some of the most hypereducated, competent people we have to sort of bracket off philosophy and think of it as one of a number of different possible things.

人们觉得哲学不过是个支线任务，偶尔想想可能性还挺有趣；或者认为哲学是种可有可无的反思，只有碰巧对这个感兴趣的人才去碰一碰。

People think that philosophy is this kind of side quest where it's fun sometimes for people to speculate about what's possible or that philosophy is this optional reflection some people can do if they happen to be interested in that sort of thing.

人们常常觉得哲学不过是个主观领域，归根结底就是个人的看法。

Philosophy is often thought of as this purely subjective space where it's really just a personal opinion when you get down to it.

我的哲学是这样，你的哲学是那样，但谁也说不清哪个更对。

I mean, I have my philosophy, you have your philosophy, but nothing can really say which one's better than any other.

这些讨论对实际做事根本帮不上忙。

And none of this really helps us get anything done practically speaking.

那它到底为什么存在？难道只是那些喜欢钻牛角尖的人的消遣？

So why does this even exist outside of a bunch of people who are addicted to thinking about stuff?

但恰恰是那些没意识到自己日常行为背后藏着无数未被审视的信念的人，才会这么想哲学。

But this is exactly how you'd expect people to think about it, who don't realize how much their actions are peddling every day that they never even consider.

这些人每天的所作所为，其实都在践行某种道德哲学，可他们却根本没法改变，因为他们觉得能质疑这些深层信念的哲学，不过是可有可无、毫无意义的东西。

These are people who become living embodiments of a moral philosophy in almost everything they do, and they're hopeless to change anything about it because they see the one thing that could interrogate these deeper beliefs, philosophy, as something that's optional and or pointless.

对麦金太尔来说，没人真能站在一个‘无立场的视角’上，而当你以为自己就是这样的时候，哲学就变得特别容易被忽视。

Again, for MacIntyre, no one out there is actually operating from a view from nowhere, and philosophy becomes something real easy to ignore when you think you are.

在这个阶段，他认为我们必须要问一个非常关键的问题。

And there's a very important question he thinks we have to ask at this point in the conversation.

我们之前提到的那位医生，是怎么学会用这样的方式看待哲学和医学的关系的呢？

Where did that doctor from our example earlier learn to think this way about philosophy in relation to their field of medicine?

其中一个主要的地方，就是现代大学对他们的塑造。

Well, one major place they were trained to think this way is in the modern university.

现代大学通常培养出来的，就是这种思维方式的人。

This is the kind of thinker the modern university generally produces.

我们之前几期讨论过的道德传统，其实能在这些传统所催生的机构中找到痕迹。

See, the moral traditions we've been talking about the last couple episodes, you can see the evidence of them in the institutions that emerge out of those moral traditions.

比如工作场所的组织方式，就能看出端倪。

You see it in things like how the workplace is typically organized.

家庭、政治社群，也都体现着这些痕迹。

You see it in our families, our political communities.

国家这样的治理机构，还有学校和大学这类教育机构，同样如此。

You see it in the organization of institutions that govern people like the state and also in institutions that claim to educate people in schools and universities.

你可以想象，只要回望历史上的任何一个时期，都能看到当时那些机构的样貌。

And as you can imagine, you can look back at any single point in history, examine the institutions of the time.

我们可以用一个重要的标准来更好地理解这些机构：看看它们是帮助还是阻碍了当时的人们参与麦金太尔所说的那种统一的知识传统。

And one important measuring stick we can use to understand them better is to ask whether an institution helps or hurts the people of the time to participate in what MacIntyre calls a unified intellectual tradition.

这个机构是让人更容易还是更难参与到这种传统中呢？

Does the institution make this easier or more difficult for people?

不过，别被‘统一’这个词吓到了。

Now, don't be thrown off by the word unified there.

这并不意味着所有人都对一切事情都意见一致。

None of this means that everybody's agreeing on everything.

关键在于，像物理学、生物学、哲学这些不同的研究领域，是否都意识到自己是在参与一个关于真理与人类福祉的更大对话？

The question is, do different forms of inquiry like physics, biology, philosophy, etcetera, do these different fields all understand themselves as answerable to a larger argument we're all participating in about truth and the human good?

想象一下，如果各个领域彼此割裂，各自为政——比如生物学家，他们觉得只要懂生物学的技术流程就够了，实际工作中只跟其他生物学家交流，其他领域的东西，就算觉得有趣、 respectable，也觉得跟自己的研究无关。

I mean, picture a world with a bunch of compartmentalized fields that all see themselves as self contained, where a biologist, for example, to understand their work only feels they need to understand it within the technical procedures of biology, meaning in practice, they end up pretty much only talking to other biologists and see anything else outside of that as maybe interesting, maybe even respectable, but ultimately unnecessary to understanding what their own work is doing.

而这，正是麦金太尔眼中现代大学培养出来的典型思维模式。

Well, again, this is exactly the sort of thinker the modern university produces to MacIntyre.

有意思的是，如果你真去问一个生物学家，他绝不会否认，自己每一步工作其实都依赖着其他学科的背景假设。

And it's funny because no biologist, if you pressed him on it, would ever deny that they do every bit of their work relying on background assumptions from other fields.

比如拿物理学来说。

Like, take physics.

他们也承认，他们研究的每一个生物过程都靠强核力维系，每一个生物体都受重力定律的约束，离不开地球。

They'd acknowledge that every biological process they study is held together by the strong nuclear force, that every organism they study is ultimately tethered to the earth by the laws of gravity.

换句话说，这些人心里其实都明白，他们的工作属于一个更宏大的、统一的知识传统，这个传统建立在我们都必须承认的诸多前提之上。

In other words, at some level, every one of these people understand that their work is part of some larger, unified intellectual tradition that brings in many assumptions that we're all beholden to.

他们明白生物学为这个传统贡献了独特的东西，也清楚生物学自身的局限，以及生物学之外的其他思想对他们的工作有着实实在在的影响。

They understand biology contributes certain unique things to this tradition, that biology has limitations to what it can do, and the many other ideas outside of biology have real effects on their work.

他们心里是清楚的。

They understand this.

但现实中，许多这类技术专家的做事方式，却像我们之前说的学术研讨会上的哲学家一样，把自己关在封闭的隔间里，完全无视那些主导他们每项工作的深层道德与人文内涵。

And yet in practice, the way so many of these technical experts operate is to be more like the philosophers at the academic seminar we talked about, to do their work as though they exist in some hermetically sealed compartment, totally removed from the deeper moral human implications that direct every single thing they do in their field.

他们只是在为其他物理学家做物理，为其他生物学家做生物。

They're just philosophers doing work for other philosophers, biologists doing work for other biologists.

他的观点是，如果现代世界真有什么机构应该让专家们看清，他们的专业与所处的这个更宏大的道德知识传统有多么紧密的联系，那这个机构就应该是大学。

And his point is, if there was an institution we have in the modern world that should be showing our experts how entangled their field is with this larger moral intellectual tradition they live in, it would be the university.

对麦金泰尔来说，一个巨大的遗憾就是，我们的大学普遍做不到这一点。

And one of the big tragedies for MacIntyre is that our universities generally don't.

只要你稍微退一步，把大学作为一个整体来看，就会发现它和苏联时期的国家机构一样，阻碍了人们充分参与深刻的思想传统；就像西班牙宗教裁判所时期的教会一样，现代大学在麦金泰尔看来，正是那个本该帮助我们建立整体性理解、却反而拖了后腿的关键机构。

Just if you were to take a step back and look at the university as an institution for a second, the same way the institution of the state during the Soviet Union detracted from people participating as well as they could in a strong intellectual tradition, the same way the institution of the church wasn't helpful during the Spanish Inquisition, the modern university for MacIntyre is a key institution in our world that is holding us back from exactly the integrated understanding it should be helping us to develop.

他说，这和过去，比如中世纪盛期巴黎的大学，已经相去甚远。

He's saying it's a far cry from what universities have been for people in the past, say in the high middle ages in the city of Paris as an example.

他认为，自那以后我们失去的，正是这样一种认知：接受最高层次的教育，理应让你在做学问时，始终思考那些在现代大学里被刻意忽略的深层问题。

And he'd say part of what's been lost since then is the understanding that receiving an education at the highest level should be doing your work in consideration of a number of deeper questions that are just bracketed off in the modern university.

这些根本性的问题，现在反而被当成和大学教育毫不相干的东西。

They are treated as though they are outside of what you even do at a university.

麦金泰尔这个观点，源自约翰·亨利·纽曼在《大学的理念》一书中的论述。

MacIntyre takes this point from the work of John Henry Newman in his book The Idea of a University.

正如麦金泰尔所解释的，对纽曼来说，当我们说一个人受过教育，意思绝不是他只是背了一堆知识，成了某个领域的技术员。

As MacIntyre explains it, to Newman, when we say someone is educated, we don't just mean that someone has memorized a bunch of knowledge and become a technician in their field.

你只要试着回答一个简单的问题，就能明白这一点：我们到底希望大学最终把学生的思维塑造成什么样？

And you can see that this is the case by just trying to answer the very simple question of what do we want a university to ultimately do to the mind of a student when they go there?

要回答这个问题，其实有好多不同的角度，看你怎么看待教育。

Now there's a lot of ways you could potentially answer that depending on how you see education.

麦金泰尔说，想试着回答这个问题，你得先问一句：大学到底是为了什么？

And MacIntyre says to even start to try to answer it, you'd have to begin by asking something like what is a university even for?

但他认为，一旦你开始探讨这个问题，就会发现我们得先弄清楚一个更根本的问题。

But he thinks once you start exploring that question, you realize we first need an answer to something a bit more basic.

教育本身又是为了什么？

How about what is an education even for?

我们为什么要在乎教育？

Why do we care about it?

只是为了产出研究成果或者技术专家吗？

Is it simply to produce research or technical experts?

还是为了让人获得就业资格，好维持社会的生产力？

Is it to get people qualified to do jobs so we can keep them productive?

如果你觉得教育跟人类追求真理有关，那真理对我们这样的人类来说，到底有什么意义？

Or if there is a part of you that thinks education has something to do with the attempt by humans to get closer and closer to the truth, why does the truth matter to the kinds of beings we are?

他的意思是，要回答这个问题，你首先得弄清楚我们本质上是一种什么样的存在。

His point is that this question would then require you to have an answer to an even deeper question of what kind of beings we are fundamentally.

这就引出了麦金太尔希望我们认真思考的一个关键观点。

And this brings us to one of the big points MacIntyre wants us to consider about all this.

每一个机构，都是建立在对这些根本问题的默认答案之上的。

Every institution is built and organized on top of answers that are assumed to these fundamental questions.

即使身处其中的人假装自己价值中立，即使像现代大学这样的机构声称自己对这些问题没有固定答案，情况依然如此。

And that our institutions are this way even when the people living in them pretend like they are value neutral and even when the institution itself claims to not have set answers to these questions like in the modern university.

想象一下，如果你接受教育的这个场所，恰恰忽视了这一点，会怎么样？

And imagine if this was the blind spot of the place that gave you your education on the world.

它当然会培养出各个领域的专家，这点毋庸置疑。

It would no doubt produce people that are experts in their field, no question.

但教育不仅仅是掌握事实。

But an education is not just about knowing facts.

更重要的是，要理解每个学科如何与其他学科产生联系。

Again, it's about knowing how each discipline bears on all the other disciplines out there.

是要明白每个学科如何融入我们共同的知识传统。

It's to know what each discipline contributes to our unified intellectual tradition.

是要清楚每个学科的局限，更不用说支撑我们整个事业的那些哲学前提了。

It's about knowing what the limitations of each discipline are, not to mention all the philosophical assumptions that ground the entire project we're in.

一个人可能在某个极小的现实切片上做到顶尖，却同时越来越不懂自己的工作在人生或社会中究竟意味着什么。

Consider how possible it is for someone to become world class at manipulating one little slice of reality while simultaneously becoming worse at understanding what their job means inside a life or a society.

想想那种能把金融模型玩到极致的人。

Think of a person that can optimize the bejesus out of a financial model.

你在斯科茨代尔可能是个喝白爪威士忌的传奇人物，但你连这种行为对别人生活造成了什么影响都答不上来。

You're the white claw chugging legend of Scottsdale, Arizona at some level, but you can't even answer basic questions about the kind of lives this thing is affecting.

其实，只有一个词能准确描述教育应该赋予专业人士的东西，对麦金太尔来说，那就是明智的判断力。

See, there's only one word that really makes sense here to describe what an education should give an expert in a field, and that to MacIntyre is good judgment.

我们不只要一个会诊断的医生，更想要一个能判断这个诊断对眼前这个活生生的人意味着什么的人。

We don't just want a doctor that knows how to diagnose things, we want somebody that can judge what that diagnosis means in the life of this real person who is standing in front of me.

一个懂得这不只是读报告或自我保护的法律手段的人。

Someone who gets that this is more than just about reading test results or protecting themselves legally.

一个懂得自己面对的是活生生的人，而某些目标对这个人的人生至关重要的人。

Someone Someone who gets that they're dealing with a human being here where certain ends matter to them in their life.

一位医生，能明白诊室里的这一刻，如何与医学实践本应服务的更大价值相连。

A doctor that understands how this one moment in an exam room connects more broadly to the goods that the practice of medicine is supposed to serve.

我们在这里最终要描述的，是麦金泰尔从亚里士多德那里借来的概念——实践智慧，也就是phronesis。

What we're ultimately describing here for MacIntyre is the concept from Aristotle he calls phronesis or practical wisdom.

我们希望专家能读懂眼前的具体情境，看清所有交织的因素，然后做出恰当的判断，知道此刻该怎么做。

We want experts that can read the specific scenario they're in, the confluence of everything that's going on, and then to make a good judgment about what the right thing to do is there.

为了避免打断节目，我想借此机会感谢今天所有支持节目的赞助商。

And just so we don't kind of interrupt the show at any point beyond this, I want to thank everybody that goes to the sponsors of the show today.

本集由Nord VPN赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Nord VPN.

VPN的意思是虚拟专用网络。

VPN stands for virtual private network.

这是一种通过加密你的网络流量来保护你上网安全的服务，让你的在线体验更安心。

It's a service that helps protect your Internet connection by encrypting your Internet traffic and it makes your time online more secure as a result of it.

这种事当然在使用公共Wi-Fi时很重要，但在家里也可能有风险。

That sort of thing matters, of course, when you're on public Wi Fi, but it also potentially matters when you're at home.

VPN，全球最快的VPN，能帮你保护密码和银行信息等隐私数据，甚至能防止黑客或你的网络服务商监控你的上网活动。

See, VPN, the fastest VPN in the world, can help protect private information like passwords and banking details, It even helps shield your activity from being monitored by hackers or your Internet service provider.

每月花一杯咖啡的钱，就能得到这么多功能。

For about the price of a cup of coffee per month, you get a lot of stuff included.

威胁防护Pro功能可以扫描正在下载的文件，拦截带有恶意意图的链接。

Threat Protection Pro, where Nord VPN can scan files while they're downloading, help block links with malicious intentions.

你还能切换虚拟位置，方便观看你所在地区无法访问的节目和体育赛事。

You can also change your virtual location, which can help you access shows and sporting events that are not available in your region.

我用Nord VPN已经好几年了，主要是为了自己看纪录片。

I've used Nord VPN for years now, mostly for me personally to watch documentaries.

各大流媒体平台之间合同纠纷太多，规矩特别乱。

There's a lot of weird contractual stuff with all the streaming services competing with each other all the time.

很多时候你就是看不了，因为某部片子只在四个国家、特定的三个月内能播。

Lot A of times you can't watch something because it's only available in these four countries for this exact three month period.

说实话，我就个普通播客主持人，就是想不断学习。

Look, I'm just a I'm just a humble podcaster that wants to keep learning.

有了Nord VPN，我就能假装自己身在另一个国家，那里这些内容是能正常观看的。

And Nord VPN has allowed me to pretend like I'm a person from another country where these things are actually allowed to be watched in.

而且它后台运行得特别安静，挺让人舒服的。

It's also nice how it runs in the background.

我根本不用操心它会不会出问题。

I never gotta worry about it.

一个订阅就能在十台不同的设备上同时使用。

And with one subscription, you can use it on up to 10 different devices.

想拿到Nord VPN最优惠的价格，就去nordvpn.com/followthis。

To get the best discount off your Nord VPN plan, go to nordvpn.com slash follow this.

通过我们的链接，两年套餐还能额外送四个月。

Our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan.

Nord有30天无条件退款保证，完全没风险。

There's no risk with Nord's thirty day money back guarantee.

链接就在播客节目的描述框里。

The link is in the podcast episode description box.

最后一个是Incogni。

Last but not least is Incogni.

我们以前在这档播客里聊过，你的个人信息有多少被传到网上，很多时候这些信息都被数据中介收集了，而他们又会把你的情报卖出去或者分享出去，完全不是你当初的意思。

You know, we've talked on this podcast before about how much of your personal information ends up online, how a lot of the time that information gets collected by data brokers, and that those brokers can then sell or share your information in ways that you never really intended.

Incogni是一个帮你从这类数据中介数据库里删除个人信息的服务。

Incogni is a service that helps remove your personal information from data broker databases like that.

他们是这么操作的。

Here's what they do.

他们会替你联系那些数据中介。

They contact the brokers for you.

帮你申请删除你的数据，之后还会跟进确认，并持续监控，确保你的信息不会再重新出现。

They request that your data be deleted, and then they handle the follow-up and keep monitoring to make sure it doesn't just show back up again later.

对我个人来说，最重要的一点是，我根本不可能坐下来亲自做这些事。

For me personally, the the biggest thing here is that I would just never be somebody that's gonna sit down and do all this myself.

我怎么可能自己去找到几百个数据经纪商，一个个发请求，还跟踪谁回复了我呢？

There is not a chance on God's green earth that I'm gonna find hundreds of data brokers, send requests out, track who responded to me.

说实话，我真的不知道该怎么弄。

I I mean, I don't know.

我宁愿把这事交给那些天天干这个的人来处理。

I I rather just put my trust in the people that handle this kind of stuff all the time.

我几个月前就注册了。

I signed up months ago.

他们已经帮我从一百多个数据库里删掉了我的信息，还有更多正在处理中。

They've taken me off well over a 100 lists like this with many more still being worked on.

知道至少有层保护，我心里踏实多了，毕竟我以前老用免费的网络服务，结果数据就被当付费方式给挖走了。

It's nice knowing that I got at least some line of defense when I have, you know, I I have such a checkered past myself of using free stuff on the Internet and then getting my data mined as payment for that.

如果你觉得这些有意思，就去 incogni.com/philo 这个链接，可以享受专属六折优惠。

Anyway, if any of this sounds interesting to you, go to incogni.com/philo this to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan.

记住，是 incogni.com/philo，六折优惠。

That's incogniincogni.com/philo this for 60% off.

好了，回到我们的播客，这让我想到麦金太尔在整本书里关于教育最引人深思的一个观点。

And now back to the podcast, which brings me to one of the most fascinating points MacIntyre makes in the entire book about education.

我觉得他说过，真正以这种方式受过教育的人会意识到，他们所做的总比自己以为的要多得多。

I think he says one of the insights somebody gets when they truly are educated in this way is that they realize they're always doing more than what they think they're doing.

这话听起来可能有点怪，但他的意思是这样：

This can sound really weird at first, but his point is this.

比如你正在外面用铲子挖个坑，你可能会说，哦，我就是挖个坑而已。

Whenever you're doing anything, say you're outside digging a hole with a shovel, it's easy to say, oh, I'm just digging a hole right now.

但换个角度看，你实际上做的远不止这么简单。没错，你是在挖坑，但也可能是在为之后种树准备地方，甚至——说句玩笑话——埋具尸体。

But in another level, you're also always doing far more than just that narrow description of the activity Because sure, you're digging a hole, but it could also be you preparing the spot where you're going to plant a tree after that or bury a body for that matter.

如果你的工作就是挖坑，那这个动作也可能是在让老板开心。

If digging a hole is your job, then digging the hole could also be you making your boss happy.

挖这个坑的同时，你可能还在赶走一群鼹鼠。

You could be displacing the mole population while digging this hole.

你其实也在锻炼身体。

You could be getting some exercise.

关键在于，受过教育的人应该能意识到，任何行为最狭隘的描述，几乎从来都算不上完整的真相。

The point is that an educated person should be able to see that the narrowest description of any action is almost never the whole truth when it comes to what that person is doing.

所以当别人做某件事时，如果说‘我只是在上班’‘我只是在提问’‘我只是在养家’，不管找什么借口，我们的教育体系都该教会人们看到，他们所做的事情实际上在为更大的目标做出贡献。

So when somebody does something and they say, hey, I'm just doing my job here or hey, I'm just asking questions, providing for my family, whatever the excuse is, we need our education process to train people to see a broader picture of what the things they're doing are contributing to.

他说，这种能力正是我们送孩子去上学、接受教育时最希望他们获得的东西。

He's saying that this skill is a big part of what we want when someone goes off to school and gets an education.

换句话说，我们更想要的是亚里士多德式道德观所体现的那种道德，而不是基于规则和义务的启蒙自由主义道德观。

In other words, we want what morality looks like much more under an Aristotelian view of morality rather than an enlightenment liberal version of morality based on rules and obligations.

我们希望培养出有判断力的人，能尽可能全面地思考自己的行为会产生怎样的影响。

We want the formation of a person with good judgment who considers as fully as they can the extent of what their actions are doing.

他认为，这种判断力来自于对自身所处的整个道德与思想传统的深刻理解。

And they do this, he thinks, by having a strong understanding of how it all connects to this broader moral intellectual tradition that they're a part of.

麦金太尔认为，现代历史中处处都能看到缺乏这种判断力所带来的危险。

MacIntyre thinks that you can see the danger of not having this judgment written all over modern history.

他认为，人类历史上一些最严重的灾难，恰恰是由那些毕业于顶尖大学的人造成的。

He thinks some of the biggest disasters that we faced in this world have been caused by people with degrees from the best universities.

他提到像越南战争、美国多年来对伊朗的政策，还有在每次金融危机来临时人们临时想出的应对办法。

He talks about things like the Vietnam War, American policy towards Iran over the years, the fixes that people come up with in real time during whatever financial crisis we're going through.

对他来说，这些问题显然不是因为智力不足造成的。

Again, for him, these are cases where the problem was clearly not a lack of intelligence.

往往是那些聪明人，却用狭隘的方式思考，因为他们看世界的眼光太局限了。

It's often smart people who think in a stupidly narrow way because they see the world in too small of a frame.

我们培养出了一大批在某个领域极其专业的人，但在大局观上却极度缺乏智慧。

We produce total experts in one area who are deeply unwise in terms of the bigger picture.

这就是为什么麦金太尔认为，如果真要讨论教育对文化的真正价值，那就是培养出那些在自己所处传统中具备实践智慧的人——他称之为‘判断力的普及’，越广泛地分布，对所有人越有好处。

This is why MacIntyre thinks that education, if you really wanted to talk about the value that it provides to a culture, having people who have practical wisdom inside the tradition they live in, it's what he calls a distribution of judgment that just benefits everyone the more widely it's distributed.

首先，这能让人们在自己的传统中成为更有道德的行动者，其次也能让他们更清楚自己的行为究竟带来了什么影响。

First of all it makes people better moral actors within their tradition, but it also makes people more aware of what their actions are contributing to.

对麦金太尔而言，也许最重要的是，如果我们文化中的人想要问责那些与自身行为后果脱节的领导者，这种判断力的普及是我们迫切需要的。

And maybe most importantly for MacIntyre, this distribution of judgment is something we desperately need if the people of our culture are gonna hold accountable the leaders who have become disconnected from the extent of what their actions are contributing to.

这确实是麦金太尔所担忧的一个现实问题。

This is a real problem for MacIntyre.

领导人上台后，起初可能还会考虑政策的全面影响。

Leaders get into power, and they may start by trying to consider the full effects of their policies.

但一旦领导人做出鲁莽的举动，站在镜头前说‘我就是在这儿挖个坑’，

But when a leader does something reckless and they get up on the screen and they tell people effectively, hey, I'm just digging a hole over here.

我们就需要一批有智慧和判断力的人，能看清他们的行为正在造成哪些被忽视的后果，并且敢于追究责任。

We need a population of people with the wisdom and judgment to be able to see how their actions are having consequences they're not considering and then to hold them accountable.

对麦克因泰尔来说，如果掌权的人只精通一个领域，却对其他十个完全不懂的领域大放厥词，而我们社会里的人又只受过单一学科的教育，那谁还能指出他们的荒谬？

I mean, to MacIntyre, if you have people in positions of power that are experts in one single area and then they start spouting off about 10 different other areas that they have no idea about, who can ever really call them out on that if we live in a world of people who are at best only educated in a single discipline?

更糟糕的是，现在很多人觉得只要坐在屏幕前听个演讲家侃侃而谈，把他说的那些答案背下来，就算受过教育了。

This of course gets even worse when there's a world of people that think it passes as an education just listen to some rhetorician on a screen, give them all the answers to the world that they should just memorize.

这算教育吗？

Is that education?

答案当然不是。

And the answer is of course not.

在麦克因泰尔看来，教育是我们必须认真对待的事，而现代大学正是他眼中最该从这里开始改革的机构。

Education is something we need to take much more seriously to MacIntyre and the modern university becomes ground zero for him if you were looking for an institution to start with.

但你也知道，这本书里他针对的可不只是大学。

But you know, it's also important to recognize he's not only coming after the university here in this book.

大学只是这种百科全书式思维所衍生出的众多机构之一。

The university is just one institution that emerges out of the logic of encyclopedic thinking.

没错，这种模式确实容易把人培养得特别狭隘。

And sure, there's a certain tendency for this to educate people in a pretty narrow way.

但如果我们公平一点，难道只有上过大学的人才会在生活里抛弃哲学吗？

But if we're being fair here, are people that go to a university the only people out there that are cutting out philosophy in their lives?

当然不是。

Well, definitely not.

这种思维方式到处都能看到。

You see this kind of thinking everywhere.

整个文化体系都建立在这种所谓‘无立场的理性’之上。

Entire cultures are built around the same view from nowhere kind of reason.

在《哲学的任务》这本书里，麦金泰尔不再只谈大学，而是写了十篇论文，每一篇都在指出：当人们把哲学当成可有可无的附加品，而不是生活根基时，他们的思维方式会在哪些地方开始出问题。

In his book, The Task of Philosophy, MacIntyre takes his critique away from just talking about the university and he writes about 10 different essays, each one of them designed to point out some area of people's thinking that starts to be lacking when they think of philosophy as a side quest that's optional rather than something that actually grounds every single thing they do in their lives.

我来举个现实生活中的例子，这涉及到他书中谈认识论危机的那一章——现在很多人每天都陷在这种困境里，如果没有哲学的反思，根本不知道怎么应对。

Let me give a real example of this in the world today, and this is a reference to the chapter where he goes in on the epistemological crisis, a situation many people living today face all the time and then are hopeless to deal with without this interrogation of philosophy.

前几天，我跟一个认识多年的朋友聊了会儿。

I talked to somebody that I've known for years the other day.

我们平时不常联系。

We we only talk every so often.

他这个人完全靠社交媒体了解世界上的事。

And they're the kind of person that gets all their news about the world from social media.

那天正好有个国家的重要领导人刚发了讲话。

And on this particular day, there was some big important leader of a country that had supposedly just given a speech.

我这朋友花了整整两小时，看了大量所谓‘证据’，说这位领导人其实已经死了，所有照片和视频都是伪造的，网上满是假新闻、假行程安排。

And this person I know had just spent the last two hours seeing all kinds of evidence that this leader was actually dead, that pictures and videos of them were being faked, posted online, fake news stories, fake travel plans.

他还看了好多帖子，都是那些网络侦探发的，专门扒这些细节。

They had just seen dozens of posts made by the real Internet detectives out there.

你知道吗，他们就拿张照片，用红圈把背景里的东西一个个圈出来。

Well, you know, they'll take a picture and then they circle stuff in the background of the picture in red.

他们能从超级碗上希拉里·克林顿身后找到大脚怪，还能拆穿那些别人都没意识到自己被蒙骗的谎言。

You know, they they find Bigfoot sitting behind Hillary Clinton at the Super Bowl, and and they figure out all the lies that everyone else is being told that they don't realize they're being told.

当时这个人觉得自己特别了不起，觉得自己在社交媒体上挖到了真消息，而其他人都像绵羊一样，被人牵着鼻子走，全盘接受那些胡说八道。

And this person clearly in the moment felt so proud of how they were uniquely in the know here, how they figured out on their social media feed, how to get the real information when so many of these other people out there are sheep just flocking towards all the nonsense they're given because they're told to.

那天谈话结束后，我就再没和这个人聊过。

Then the conversation ended that day with this person.

结果三四天后才发现，那位领导人根本没死。

And three, four days later, turns out this leader wasn't actually dead.

而这个人自然又刷起了下一条动态，早把之前那些信誓旦旦的论断忘得一干二净。

And this person naturally just moved on to the next thing in their feed where they practically forgot the thing they had such strong opinions about ever even happened.

这就是麦金太尔对这一切的见解。

Now here's MacIntyre's point about all this.

这本该让人陷入一场认识论上的危机才对。

This should have been a moment where it leads to something in a person that looks like an epistemological crisis.

我的意思是，如果你用来判断真假的标准居然如此荒谬，对那些真正追求真相的人来说，这绝对该是个警钟——你得好好想想，到底是什么让你相信了这么一个彻头彻尾的假消息。

I mean, to be this brazenly wrong in the criteria you use to determine something's worth believing in, that'd be a moment for a lot of people who are actually interested in the truth, where you very clearly need to reconsider what caused you to believe in such a totally false story.

他的意思是，你得做点哲学思考。

You'd have to do some philosophy is his point.

你得问问自己，我到底用了什么样的证据标准？

You'd have to ask what standards of evidence did I use here?

这些标准是不是该再严格一点？

Should those maybe be tightened up a bit?

而且，我是不是因为相信这个能让我觉得自己比那些不知道真相的人高明，才愿意接受它？

But also, did I want to believe this was true because it made me feel superior to the people that weren't in the know?

我心中关于权威和真相的更大叙事，是怎么让我觉得这件事可信的？

What larger story do I have about authority and truth that made this feel believable to me?

在我还相信这件事的时候，什么样的证据本该让我怀疑它？

What would have counted as evidence against this while I was still believing it?

再次强调，你用来构建知识的那些认识论前提，根本不是可有可无的。

Once again, having epistemological assumptions that you base your knowledge on, this isn't something that's optional.

每个人都有这样的前提。

Everybody absolutely has them.

但如果你觉得哲学不过是某些人的业余爱好，根本不是支撑你所有行为的根本基础，如果你把整个反思过程看成可有可无的，那你很容易就把自己的错误当成一次偶然的失误，随便打发掉。

But if you assume that philosophy was just this hobby some people have, and again, not something that actually grounds everything you do in the world, if you see that whole process as optional, you might be tempted to just write off how wrong you are about this thing as simply a one off scenario.

你甚至可能把错归咎于社交媒体。

Maybe you'd even blame social media for the fact that you were wrong.

哎呀。

Oops.

是的，我确实搞错了。

Yes, I was mistaken.

没必要深究那天到底是什么让我被彻底蒙骗了。

No need to take a deeper look at what got me into this place where I was completely deceived the other day.

记住，根据麦金太尔的说法，哲学的起点，就是当那些曾经管用的老答案再也撑不住的时候。

Remember, from MacIntyre, philosophy begins when the old answers that used to do the job for someone no longer do the job anymore.

但如果整个文化环境都让你不必在这一层面上承担责任，那绝大多数人自然就不会去这么做。

But if practically the entire culture is set up so you don't need to take accountability at this level, then effectively most people just won't.

他们只是被推着赶往下一件要操心的事，从不需要让自己的世界观接受任何真实的标准——无论是道德上还是认知上的——来检验。

They're just hurried along to the next thing they gotta worry about without ever needing what they believe about the world to be answerable to any kind of real standards, moral or intellectual.

顺便说一句，同样的情况也发生在现代世界的另一个常见机构——职场上。

Consider how the same thing goes on by the way, and another common institution in the modern world, the workplace.

我们工作的地方，每天至少占去八个小时，每周至少五天，都在塑造我们的思维方式。

With where we work, obviously taking up at least eight hours of how we think every day for at least five days out of our week.

认真想想，如果你在团队会议上讨论公司计划的时候，会发生什么？

Seriously, what would happen if you were inside of a team meeting talking about what the plan is at the company you work at?

假设有人举手问：在我们讨论这个计划能不能成功之前，我们能不能先问一句——这计划的目的是什么？

And imagine someone raises their hand and they ask a question like, look, before we talk about whether this plan is actually going to work or not, can we first just ask what is the good?

这个计划最终要为世界带来什么样的善？

What's the teleological end that this plan is going to bring about in the world?

在回答这个问题之前，我们还得想想：如果我们继续以这种方式执行这个计划，一年后我们会变成什么样的人？

And before we answer that one, what sort of human beings will this plan train us to become if we keep working on it in this way for the next year or so?

我是想问，从道德层面来看，这个计划会怎样改变我们？

How will this change us morally speaking is what I'm asking?

他们可能会说：哦，好吧。

They'd be like, oh, okay.

是的，谢谢你的分享。

Yeah, thanks for the input there.

现在，请坐下来，咱们专心处理手头的任务。

Now, go ahead and sit down and let's focus on the task at hand.

如果你还记得《德性之后》那一期，麦金泰尔就说过，当我们假装所有行动背后都没有价值基础时，管理者这个社会角色就会获得巨大的影响力。

You know, if you remember from the after virtue episode, this is one of the moments MacIntyre thinks that the social role of the manager gains so much power in the world when we pretend like there's no values that underlie everything we're doing.

这时候，他们就能站出来，发挥自己最擅长的那一套。

This is where they get to stand up and do what they do best.

他们就会说：嘿，嘿。

They get to say, hey, Hey.

苏珊，你刚才提的问题真有意思。

That that's a real interesting question you asked there, Susan.

非常有意思。

Really interesting.

对。

Yeah.

我真想下班后跟你出去，好好把这事聊聊。

I'd I'd love to go out after work and and hash all that out with you.

我个人对这类问题也很感兴趣。

I personally very interested in those kinds of questions myself.

但你知道，在我们这间满是隔间办公室里，根本没人讨论价值观这种事。

But, you know, questions of values that are not really what we do here in the hall of cubicles we all work in.

按麦金泰尔的说法，尽管公司里每个人的一举一动都暗含着某种道德哲学，可没人去真正反思过这些。

And again, to MacIntyre, they say all this, even though everything that anyone does in that company is loaded with a moral philosophy that never actually gets examined by the people carrying it out.

大家只顾着赶下一项任务，觉得对工作本身的道德反思，跟在大学课堂里讨论一样格格不入。

They just get hurried along to the next thing they got to produce and think that any kind of moral analysis of what they're doing belongs in the workplace about as much as it belongs in a university classroom.

这儿就不干这事儿。

It's just not what we do here.

话虽如此，我们该怎么把麦金泰尔这一系列观点串起来呢？

It's assumed That said, how do we bring everything that MacIntyre has said in this series together a bit?

我觉得首先得说，他希望所有生活在现代社会里的人明白，哲学不是可有可无的，就像人不能没有身体一样。

I guess the first thing to say is that he'd want anybody listening to this in the modern world to recognize that philosophy is not optional in the same kind of a way that having a body is not optional.

你所做的每一件事，都根植于某种特定的生活方式。

You are always doing everything rooted in a particular way of life.

无论你往哪里看，你遇到的人都早已生活在对哲学问题的答案里。

That everywhere you look, the people you see are already living inside answers to philosophical questions.

所以，剧中开头那场 diner 的场景对他来说才如此重要。

This is why that scene in the diner from the beginning of the episode matters so much to him.

现代社会有太多方式，把那些原本会让人陷入存在危机的真实难题，悄悄转化成别的东西。

The modern world has a ton of different ways of taking these real, difficult philosophical questions that otherwise would create a kind of existential event in a person's life and they transform these questions into something else.

在研讨班里，这些问题被简化成技术员该解决的专业问题。

In the seminar, they get turned into simply a professional problem to be solved by technicians.

在职场上，它们被贴上‘不切实际’的标签，说成是下班后自己折腾的事。

In the workplace, it gets called something that's impractical, something you do on your own time.

在大学里，它们被拆成十四份，分给不同系所，却永远给不出让人满意的答案。

In the university, it gets broken up and sent off to 14 different departments that can't ever give us a satisfying answer to it.

但如果你有勇气去真正参与哲学思考，去质疑那些已经不再适合你的答案，你就会注意到，他在这四期节目里给我们的那些洞见。

But when you have the courage to engage in philosophy, he thinks, and really interrogate the answers that aren't doing the job anymore for you, You notice the kind of insights he's given us over these four episodes that we've done on his work.

在《德性之后》中，他指出我们仍在使用一种道德语言，但这种语言早已沦为昔日道德的空壳。

In After Virtue, to notice that we're still using moral language that's become a simulacra of what morality used to be.

在《三种竞争性版本》中，他强调，我们始终身处某种道德传统之中，这只不过取决于你对自己所处传统的觉察有多深。

In Three Rival Versions, to notice that we're always operating from within a moral tradition is just a matter of how self aware you are of yours.

在《独立的理性动物》中，他提醒我们，我们对‘人是什么’这类道德问题的回答，深刻影响着我们如何看待周围的一切。

Independent rational animals to notice that our answers to moral questions like what a human being even is has a massive impact on how we see everything around us.

而在最近这两本书中，他指出，现代机构在培养我们所需的智者方面已经失败了，这些智者本应让我们的道德与智识传统持续发挥应有的作用。

And now in these two books to realize that there's been a failure by modern institutions when it comes to producing the wise people we need to make our moral intellectual tradition continue to do what we want it to do.

在他不幸于2025年5月离世后，几乎恰好一年后的今天，他希望现代人继续追问的一个问题。

A question that he'd want modern people to continue on asking after he unfortunately left us in May 2025, almost one year to the day of this.

我们必须持续追问的是：我们需要构建一个怎样的世界，才能让像我们这样依赖传统、具有理性的生命，变得足够智慧，看清自己在做什么，并且足够有德性，继续共同前行。

The question we gotta keep asking is, what sort of a world would we have to build for dependent, rational animals like us who are shaped by traditions to become wise enough to see what we're doing and moral enough to continue doing it together.

如果你觉得这个节目是有价值的教育资源，欢迎访问 patreon.com/philosophiesthis 支持我们。

If you value the show as an educational resource, patreon.com/philosophiesthis.

和往常一样，感谢所有在节目页面留言、持续参与讨论的朋友们。

As usual, I appreciate everybody that comments and keeps the conversation going on the episode page.

每次听节目的人都能让我学到很多东西。

Always learn a ton from the people that listen to this show.

顺便说一句，这里也是推荐未来想听的话题的好地方，欢迎随时提建议。

It's also a great place, by the way, to recommend anything you want covered in a future episode of this podcast, so you can do that there too.

这本书进展得很顺利，有兴趣的朋友可以期待一下。

Book is coming along very nicely for anyone interested.

出版社特别满意，这大概算是人生中能拿到的一个小小成就了吧。

Publishers very happy, which I guess is that's that's one kind of gold star to get in in a lifetime.

好了，祝大家剩下的这一周过得愉快。

Anyway, hope you have a great rest of your week.

谢谢收听。

Thank you for listening.

下次再聊。

Talk to you next time.