每位创始人都应知的10条准则：揭秘Anduril内部通讯策略——对话Lulu Cheng Meservey与Trae Stepens

我们将传播视为战略问题。我们希望人们了解安道尔（Androle）的什么故事？

We view comms strategically. What is the story we want people to know about Androle?

那些决定不在安道尔工作的人根本就不该留在那里，他们没留下真是太好了。如今公司正因为这些人的离开而变得更好。

The people who decided not to work at Androle are people who absolutely shouldn't have worked there, and it's awesome that they don't work there. And today, the company is better because of who doesn't work there.

当你加入安道尔时，就意味着你签约参与武器研发。所有人目标一致，这让我们的整体传播策略轻松许多。

When you join Andro, you're signing up to build weapons. Everyone's on the same page, and that makes our whole comm strategy much easier.

如今有越来越多人受够了不公正的攻击。每次他们攻击你时，都应该让他们感到难受，让他们再也不敢这么做。这应该让他们失去职业安全感，丧失声望——难道你想成为下一个丹卓尔（Dandrule）吗？

So much more now of a groundswell of people who are fed up of unfair attacks. Every time they attack you, it should be unpleasant for them, and they should not want to do it. It should create the opposite of job security for them. It should create the opposite of prestige for them. You wanna be the next Dandrule.

你想成为下一个帕尔默、特雷、布莱恩或马特吗？不经历这些就不可能达成。所以你必须经历这些，才能把你的故事推向世界。

You wanna be the next Palmer, Trey, Brian, Matt. Like, that doesn't come without going through this. And so you have to put yourself through that in order to push your story out into the world.

好的，今天我们有个特别播客。现场有两位我最喜欢的人物，首先是我的好友特雷，各位在往期节目里见过他。

Alright. We've got a special podcast today. I've got two of my favorite people here. I'm gonna start with Trey, my good friend. You guys have seen him before on the podcast.

他是创始人基金的合伙人，也是国防科技公司昂德尔（Ondrel）的联合创始人。我们对这家公司充满期待，并有幸从创立初期就见证其成长，这非常令人兴奋。其中有个关键要素——我认为不仅是昂德尔，整个科技界都几乎从未讨论过的——就是传播策略。因此今天我们还隆重邀请到首次在《海盗线》节目亮相的露露·米瑟维，我已关注她多年。

He's a partner at Founders Fund and a cofounder of Ondrel, a defense technology company that we are all extremely excited about and have had the great pleasure of kind of watching from the ground floor. It's been super exciting. One big piece of that that, one huge piece of it that I think that we just almost never talk about, and not just at Ondrel, but in tech generally, is comms. And so we also have here today, making her grand Pirate Wires debut, Lulu Miservi. Lulu is someone who I have followed for a few years now.

我记得那是在新冠疫情最严重的夏天，所有人都挤在Clubhouse的聊天室里。从那时起我就开始关注她，至今已有几年了，快四年了吧。她在舆论场中占据了一个非常有趣的位置——在科技行业面临前所未有的媒体敌意时，她向创始人们传授如何在如此敌意的环境中进行公关传播。我认为如今当创始人陷入危机或准备发布重要产品时，卢露是他们第一个想到的人。

I think it was COVID when the, like, awful summer of COVID when everyone was shoved in a clubhouse chat room. And I've been following her since then. It's a few years. I'm going on four years now, and she has occupied a very interesting place in the discourse where she is talking to founders about really, like, comms in a hostile a uniquely hostile moment for tech when the press has never been more hostile. I think that Lulu is the person now today that founders call when they're in the middle of a crisis or about to release some sort of really important product.

如果你对公关传播感兴趣，她绝对是你应该在推特上关注的人。她本身也是一位创始人，这意味着我们三个都有共同点——都经历过创业的炼狱。但今天我们要重点讨论公关传播，很多内容会围绕我们在《海盗连线》发表的那篇关于昂德拉·罗尔公关策略的文章展开，即《使命驱动型创始人的十条准则》。这次讨论算是那篇文章的补充，我们会概述这十条准则，但建议大家去阅读原文获取完整解析。

I think that she is definitely the person you should be following on Twitter if you're interested in comms generally, and she's a founder herself, which means that all three of us have something in common. We know the special hell that is starting companies. But today, we're really gonna focus on the comms piece, and, a lot of it is gonna hinge on this piece that we published in Pirate Wires, and that is inside Ondra Roll's comm strategy, 10 rules for mission driven founders. This is gonna be a kinda complimentary piece to that. We're gonna go over the 10 rules, but, you really should check that piece out for the for the, for the full breakdown.

这次更像是重点摘要和概述，我会分享我觉得有趣的内容，以及我个人特别想深入探讨的部分。我想直接切入主题——聊聊昂德拉的早期发展、公关传播策略，以及如何用两人团队搭建公关体系。我认为这是早期初创公司在媒体围剿下成功实施公关策略的典范案例。在开始之前，我有没有遗漏什么？有没有说错的地方？

This is gonna be more like sort of the highlights and, kind of an overview plus the highlights of things that I find interesting, the things that I sort really was curious about expanding on. And I just wanna get to it. I wanna talk about the early days of Androl, and I wanna talk about comms, and I wanna talk about how you guys should be building your comms team with two people who just sort of saw one of, I think, the the better examples of of a successful comm strategy for an early stage startup that was really just kind of, like, totally under siege by the press. Before I get started with all of that, did I miss anything? Did I get anything wrong?

你们想补充什么吗？或者想夸夸我的穿搭？这些我都接受。

Do you wanna add anything? Do you wanna compliment my outfit? I would accept any of those things.

我会用文字形式稍后赞美你的穿搭。

I'll compliment your outfit in writing later.

谢谢，经典操作。所以崔，你对我的穿搭没什么要说的吗？

Thank you. Classic. So that's so the Trey, you don't have anything to say about my outfit?

我是说，你那双在视频画面里特别显眼的鞋子真是独树一帜...看起来真的很怪。

I mean, your your shoe that's very present in the video frame is something else. It's really weird.

想要一切顺利。我们可以共同签署，我们可以合作

Wanna get Alright. We can co sign we can co

稍后再签我的赞美。没关系。

sign my compliment later. It's okay.

好的。让我们分解一下。在进入所有规则和把握当下之前，我希望你们能带我回到最初。

Yes. Okay. Let's break it down. I wanted you guys to take me just before we get into all the rules and sort of navigating the moment. Take me back to the beginning.

比如，当时在建设什么？也许我们可以从特雷开始，或者说是奠定基础。当时在建设什么？更广泛的技术领域又是怎样的？你的目标是什么？当时硅谷的情况如何？

Like, what was being built? This maybe we'll start with Trey for this or sort of setting setting the setting the ground floor here. What was being built, and what was the broader sort of tech terrain at the time? Like, was your goal and and what was kind of happening in the valley at that time?

是的。你知道，2014年我加入FoundersOn时，对风险投资一无所知。我开始关注国家安全领域，想看看是否已经存在类似Palantir、SpaceX这样的企业脉络。我接触了数百家公司，惊讶地发现并没有下一个Palantir或SpaceX，这个领域几乎一片空白。于是我和FoundersSun团队的成员、Palantir的前同事，以及Oculus的发明者帕尔默·拉奇一起，开始构思下一代国防技术公司可能的样子。

Yeah. You know, when I joined FoundersOn in 2014, not knowing anything about venture capital, I started looking at the national security space to see if there was kind of a, you know, V2 Palantir SpaceX kind of lineage out there in the community already operating. And I met with hundreds of companies and was surprised to find that there wasn't really a next Palantir SpaceX. There wasn't really a whole lot of stuff going on. And so with a bunch of people on the founder Sun team, with a bunch of my former colleagues at Palantir and also with Palmer Lucky, who was the inventor of Oculus, we were kind of brainstorming what a next generation defense technology company might look like.

出乎意料的是，Founders Fund团队鼓励我去尝试创建这家疯狂的公司。与今天不同——现在有数百人试图进入关键战略产业或国防领域——当时我们几乎是孤军奋战。当我们开始与风投基金洽谈时，他们甚至不知道该如何归类我们。很多LP协议禁止投资国防技术，所以我们处在一个既有趣又极其特殊的窗口期。

And to my surprise, the Founders Fund team kind of encouraged me to go and try to build this crazy company. So, you know, unlike today where there's, you know, hundreds of people that are trying to build in like critical strategic industries or defense more specifically, we were kind of, you know, out there by ourselves operating. And so when we went and started talking to venture funds, you know, they they didn't really have any idea what bucket to even put this in. A lot of the LP agreements that they had with their investors prohibited investing in defense technologies. And so we were kind of in this weird window where it was interesting but very, very unique.

因此早期的挑战之一就是向世界解释为什么我们认为这很重要。当时国家正处于转型期——从十五年的反叛乱、反恐行动对抗流氓国家和恐怖组织，转向开始更多思考大国竞争的时代。从时机角度看，我们恰好撞上了一个有趣的窗口期。但如何讲述这个故事非常关键，因为人们可能还没有完全适应这种新的思维方式。

And so part of the challenge for us early on was communicating to the world why we thought this was important. And, you know, we were in this transition period as a country where we had gone from, you know, fifteen years of counterinsurgency and counterterrorism operations against essentially like rogue states and terrorist organizations. And we were transitioning to this world in which we were starting to think more about great power great power conflict. And so from a timing perspective, I think we like really hit it in a in an interesting window. But the mess the the storytelling part of this was really important because people maybe hadn't fully mentally shifted to that that new thought process.

没错。关于通讯方面，你们现在可能面临几个问题，我不想说是麻烦，但确实存在一些疑问，比如在融资、招聘甚至可能向政府销售时，这个故事如何被解读。这些是否准确反映了你们在考虑通讯策略时的想法？

Right. So there are a handful of maybe problems that you're facing when it comes to comms right away, and it's, I don't wanna say trouble, but there are questions surrounding, like, how that story is playing when it comes to raising, possibly when it comes to hiring and when it comes to maybe selling to the government. Is that maybe correctly identifying the things that you guys were thinking about when you were thinking about comms?

是的，没错。我们需要面对多种不同的受众群体。最初，那些受众无疑是最关键的。比如，购买我们产品的人如何看待我们，市场上潜在应聘者又如何看待我们？你可以将Androle的潜在应聘者市场像正态分布一样划分——一边是非常爱国的人群，如果他们现在不在Palantir或SpaceX工作，可能过去曾任职过。

Yeah, yeah, that's right. There's a bunch of different audiences that you want to speak to. At first, those audiences were definitely the critical ones. Like, what are the people that are buying our products think about us and what do potential recruits in the market think about us? You can kind of like break down the market of potential recruits for Androle and a normal distribution, just like anything else where you have like on the one side, like all of these really patriotic people that if they're not already working for Palantir or SpaceX, maybe they did in the past.

这部分人很容易沟通。虽然工程师群体不算庞大，但他们是一群高尚的人，真心想从事国家安全工作，招募他们很容易。而另一边则是永远不可能从事国家安全工作的人，比如谷歌那些抗议项目的活动人士。

That crew was very easy to communicate with. It's not a giant, you know, chunk of of engineers, but they're like a noble set of people that really want to work in national security. It's easy to recruit them. And then you have the people on the other side that are like, they're never going to work on national security. These are like the activists at Google that were protesting project may have been whatever.

我们其实完全不需要与他们沟通，你永远无法争取到他们。但大多数人处于高斯曲线的中间地带——那些可能被说服认为这项工作值得做的人。但你需要向他们解释原因，说明问题所在，阐述我们的伦理思考方式。

And like, we really don't need to communicate to them at all. You're never going to win them over. But then the bulk of those people are in the middle of that Gaussian curve. It's like the people that could probably be convinced that this is worth doing, But you need to tell them why you need to tell like you need to explain the problem to them. You need to explain how we're thinking about ethics.

这正是Lulu和她的团队做得非常出色的地方，他们帮助我们理清思路，发布必要的信息，为后来发展成庞大国防科技产业奠定了基础，而这一切都始于Andoril早期的通讯策略。

And that was something that Lulu and her team did an awesome job of helping us think through and getting the messaging out that we needed to get out to lay the groundwork for what ended up turning into, like, a big industry around defense tech that all started from that early communication strategy at Andoril.

是的。在我们深入讨论策略之前——关于Lulu的通讯策略及你们的思考方式——你们如何看待这个问题？Trey的总结是否符合你们当时的认知？或者说，当你最初开始审视这个问题时，你看到了什么？

Yes. Before we get into the strategy, Lulu's your comm strategy and how you're thinking about it, how how do you think about the problem? Did sort of Trey kind of roughly summarize it as as you remember it? Or what when you kind of first looked under the hood, so to speak, what did you see?

好的。首先我本该先说三件事——除了称赞你的着装非常惊艳外——第一，Frey当时基本是在为Andrew做竞品分析，现在某种程度上仍是。Palmer、Brian等很多人，但主要是创始团队。我有幸协助过Shannon Pryor（现任Comms Today负责人），她非常出色。但这一切能运作的核心在于创始人们深度参与其中，虽然这并不总是光鲜亮丽。

Okay. Well, so three things that I probably should have said upfront alongside how stunning your outfit looks is number one, Frey was basically running comps for Andrew and still kinda is. And and Palmer, Brian, lot of a lot of other people, but primarily the group of founders, Like I got to help Shannon Pryor who runs Comms Today is amazing. But the reason all of this works is because the founders are in the middle of it. Like when and it's not always glamorous.

就像人们想找人发泄时，就会冲着特雷大喊大叫。之所以发生这么多这样的事，是因为特雷、帕默这些人愿意站出来承担责任。这带来了巨大的改变。我们稍后会再详细讨论这点。但首要的是他们在主导沟通策略。

Like when people want somebody to yell at, they go yell at Trey. So a lot of this is happening because Trey, Palmer, those guys are willing to step up and own it. And that makes a big, big difference. And I think we'll touch more on that later. But that's number one is like they're running the comms strategy.

其次，目前国防科技非常热门。我认为特雷说得对，你们赶上了一个好时机。但这种局面随时可能改变。我们讨论的美妙之处在于，这些道理无论你所做的事是否流行都成立。

And number two, right now, defense tech is super hot. I think Trey's right. You guys caught it at a great time. That could stop being the case anytime. And so the beauty of what we're talking about is it these are things that are true regardless of whether the thing you're doing is popular or not.

国防科技曾经不受欢迎而现在流行，这并没有改变真实的竞争策略。帕默说，可能明天醒来世界发生某些事让国防科技不再酷炫，但我们会继续前进。这是需要了解的第二点。第三点是特雷你当时说过在寻找下一个SpaceX或Palantir，现在有太多公司想成为下一个Endril。

The fact that defense tech was not popular and now is has not changed in reals comp strategy. And Palmer says we could wake up tomorrow and something has happened in the world that makes defense tech no longer the cool thing, but we're going to keep going. So that's the second thing to know. And then the third thing is, Trey, you said at the time you were looking for the next SpaceX or the next Palantir. There are so many companies now that wanna be the next Endril.

创始人们来找我，都想成为下一个Endril或特雷、帕默、布莱恩什么的。但若不经历你们早期那些艰难，就无法达到那个高度。我希望我们能聊聊那段经历——那并不愉快。

Like, founders come to me. They wanna be the next Endril or that they wanna be the next Trey or Palmer or Brian, whatever. And you don't get to that place without going through what you guys went through in the early days. And I think, I hope that we can talk about that a little bit. Just it's it wasn't fun.

人们对特雷很刻薄，对你们所有人都是。我甚至被赶出Uber，不过这也是...

People were mean to Trey. People were mean to all of you guys. I got kicked out of the Uber, but that's part of

该死，我本来把Uber列在要讨论的话题清单上的。我...

what Damn it. I had Uber on my list of things to talk about. I

我们会讨论这个的。

do We'll talk about it.

我现在就想谈谈这个。我是说，对我来说，当你提到你们面临的沟通问题时，我觉得或许我很想多听听那个时刻的情况。这里有谷歌Maven的事，还有Uber的故事。Lula，就直接讲讲Uber的故事吧。我想听Uber的故事。

I I wanna talk about this now. I mean, this for me, when you talk about the comms problem that you're facing, I think that you guys are maybe I would love to hear a little more about that moment. I mean, there's, like, the Google Maven of it all, and there is the Uber story. Lula, just tell the just tell the Uber story. I wanna hear the Uber story.

好吧。当时Trey还不知道这件事。我想你和Palmer是六年后我写那篇文章时才发现的。那是在我们完成了一天的演示或类似活动后，我正要去机场。我打了辆Uber去洛杉矶国际机场，在车上给Josh打电话说，能和这些人一起出来真是太棒了。

Okay. So Trey didn't know this at the time. I think you and Palmer found out, like, six years later when I wrote the piece. It was after we had done, I don't know, we had done a day of demos or something, and I was going back to the airport. I was taking an Uber to LAX, and I called Josh on the phone saying, it's so cool to get out here with these guys.

技术真的在发挥作用。我们亲眼所见。我记得我说过，这帮助了边境巡逻人员之类的话。结果Uber司机突然变得特别古怪。

Like, the tech is really working. We could see it. It's helping, I think I said, border agents. Something. The Uber driver got super weird.

他把手机藏起来，假装导航失灵。然后要求我关掉手机——当有人行为异常时，你肯定不想关机。接着他在下一个出口驶离高速，强行让我下车。他说'我不能和你这样的人待在一起'。于是我拎着行李在高速路边下了车，重新叫了辆Uber。

He hid his phone and pretended that the navigation didn't work. And then he told me to turn off my phone, which when someone gets weird, you don't want to turn off your phone. And then he pulled off the highway on the next exit, and he made me get out. And he said, I can't be around people like you. So like I took my luggage and got out of the Uber on the side of the highway and called a new one.

这某种程度上是个缩影。Trey不知道你清不清楚这事，我给一位很有名的国防科技专栏作家发邮件想安排你们见面——你们本该很合得来。但他拒绝了，因为你与Palmer走得太近，而他憎恨Palmer。后来就因为我提议这事，他再也不理我了。

And that was sort of symptomatic. And I don't know if you know this one, Trey, but I emailed I think you know who this is. But I emailed a very high profile defensetechnology writer to meet with you because you guys would have gotten along great. And he wouldn't because you were too close to Palmer and he hated Palmer. And then he stopped talking to me for suggesting that he meet with you.

情况真的很糟糕。哦对了，在你生日派对上，Elad Gil告诉我——他说可以公开分享这事——他说当初投资你们时，收到过很多愤怒的短信，有条甚至骂他做了'法西斯主义投资'，就因为支持Andrew。

So it was it was really ugly. Oh, and then at your at your birthday party, Elad Gil told and he said I could share this publicly. But he said that when he invested in you guys, he would get all of these angry text messages, and he got one that said he he made a fascist investment, because of supporting Andrew.

我们正要离开

We were coming out

狂野的。

of wild.

当时文化氛围对任何持异议的事物都格外敌视，就在你们创立公司那个时期。在那个环境下，任何稍显另类的东西都会引发争议。帕尔默刚在Facebook经历了一场风波——人们基于非常公开的、甚至可以说是主流政治立场对他充满敌意。而你们却在创建一家国防科技公司。国防，你知道的，那就像是战争。

The the the cultural moment was uniquely hostile to anything that was contrarian at that moment when you guys were founding the company. And then within that so, like, anything that would have been a little bit weird would have been controversial. Palmer had just gone through a whole thing at Facebook where, I mean, people just were really hostile to him based on very overtly, like and I would say, like, common political beliefs. And then your guys are building a defense technology company. And defense is you know, it's it's it's like war.

那是军事领域。我刚刚还在和一位谷歌员工聊天，在谷歌内部，你需要通过面试才能转到心仪的团队，他当时正在经历这个过程。他本人有军队背景，所有面试原本进展顺利，直到这段经历被知晓，然后进程就停滞了。几个月后，在一次酒吧聚会上，有人酒后随口告诉他：'老兄，我们真的很欣赏你，但我实在过不了军队背景这个坎。'这种偏见确实存在——虽然我不想以偏概全，但当时确实普遍会遇到极度反感这类工作、甚至敌视从业者的人。

It's military. I was actually just talking to someone who works at Google who in Google, you have to kind of like, you have to interview for the teams that you wanna sort of, like, move to, and he was in the process of this. And, he's himself, he's former military, and the interviews all went really well until that came out. They kind of stopped. And then a few months later, while drinking, they were at a bar, a group big group thing, and someone just relayed casually to him like, oh, man.

这种偏见根深蒂固。我不想妄断整个行业，但当时确实普遍存在强烈抵触这类工作及其从业者的现象。这就是你们面临的挑战。想想看，在科技行业——这个被外界视为最理想主义、最不食人间烟火、绝不可能涉足国防的领域——创立这样一家公司，对吧？

We really loved you, but I just I couldn't get into the whole military thing. There really is that kind of a bias, and then there that bias exists really, I don't wanna I don't wanna judge the entire industry, but it is certainly then, it was very common to to encounter people who really just hated this kind of work and hated people who worked with this kind of work. So that's the challenge. And now when you think about building a company in tech, which is considered by the rest of the world is, like, one of the most, like, hippie dippie, pie in the sky places that would never touch defense. You know?

你是做什么的？具体来说，你如何解决这些挑战？在如此充满敌意的环境中——不仅来自媒体，还有技术同行、风投人士、工程师群体，当然还有那些'觉醒派'HR——你如何制定有效的沟通策略？虽然你永远无法打动那些人，但如何触及其他群体？我们手上有你的原则清单，如果你同意的话，我们可以先快速过一遍，再重点讨论其中几条。

What do you do? Like, how do you solve these challenges? How do you how do you have an an effective comm strategy in such a hostile environment, not just from from the press, but from, like, other technologists, other VCs, other engineers, and obviously, the woke HR people, but you can you're never gonna reach them. How do you reach the rest of them? We've got your rules here, and we can maybe just list them really quick before we focus on a few, if that's cool with you.

那么你拥有...好吧，我其实想先从这个开始，然后再讨论其他部分。但第一条原则就是'以终为始'。你能详细解释下这个理念吗？虽然听起来简单，但我认为它非常重要。

So you have and well, I'll start with this first one actually, and then we'll go to the rest. But the the very first one is start with the ends. Can you kind of walk us through what your thinking is with that? Because I it sounds simple, but I do think it's important.

是的。为了致敬安德烈尔的理念和使命，我借鉴了'目标-方法-手段'这一经典军事框架。所谓'以终为始'，本质上是要先明确你想达成的目标。沟通策略方面，人们常犯的错误就是脱离实际空谈沟通目标。

Yeah. Well, in in honor of Andrel and the mission, I I based it off of ends, ways, and means, which is a classic military framework. But you start with the ends in a sense of, you first have to know what you're trying to accomplish. Not for comms. People get lost when they start setting up comms goals in a vacuum.

我想走红。我想要曝光度。我想要我的——继承之战里怎么说来着？就像，我想要我的推特火爆全网。但相反，如果你从商业目标出发，比如我们想招募多少这类人才，我们想将收入提升多少，那么你就可以逆向设计薪酬策略来实现这些目标。

I want to go viral. I want impressions. I want my what's the succession quote? Like, I want my Twitter to be off the hook. Instead, if you start with the business goals of we want to recruit this many of this type of people, and we want to increase revenue by this, then you can sort of reverse engineer the comp strategy to make that happen.

所以崔伊刚才说的是你必须知道该忽略谁。顺便说一句，马特·格里姆在这方面很在行。他特别擅长判断哪些人无关紧要。这种近乎偏执地只关注关键人物的做法，有助于推广那些并非大众普遍喜爱的东西。因此，某些非主流的内容可能在你在乎的群体中异常火爆。

So Trey was talking about you have to know whom to ignore, basically. Matt Grimm is really good at that, by the way. He's really good at like, these people don't matter. And so having that near maniacal focus on the only people who matter helps with something that is not kind of generically popular. So something that might not be mainstream popular could be wildly popular with the people that you actually care about.

安德鲁当时对话的那些人确实非常喜欢这个。但当时在谷歌工作的人可能就不这么想了。要知道那会儿正值抗议谷歌参与Maven项目的时期——说起来，我觉得谷歌Maven抗议者铺的路，才让谷歌Gemini抗议者能跑起来。这话听着挺怪的。

And so the people that Andrew was talking to really, really loved it. The people who were working at Google at the time, maybe not so. I mean, it was during the time of the protests over Google being part of Project Maven, which, by the way, I think is like Google Maven activists walked so that Google Gemini activists could run. I mean, that's strange.

天啊。

Oh my god.

只不过是受众群体不同罢了。

But it's just a different set of people.

你说‘从结果倒推’，是指从你希望呈现的形象开始规划吗？

When you say start with the ends, you mean, like, start with how you want to be perceived? Is

不是。接近了。应该从你想达成的商业目标出发，然后分析需要让哪些人群对你产生何种认知才能实现这些目标。比如这个案例中，目标是招募顶尖技术人才和获取合同，那么你就必须让采购决策者认为你专业、高效且性价比高。

that No. Close. Yeah. Start with what business goals you're trying to reach, and then figure out how you need to be perceived by which people in order for those goals to be met. So in this case, the goals were recruit the best tech talent and get contracts, in which case you have to be perceived as being competent, fast, and cheaper by people making procurement decisions.

你必须被科技人才视为充满激情、引人入胜、使命驱动且能解决难题的形象。现在你明白了需要让哪些人以何种方式看待你，才能促使他们做出有助于实现使命的决策。一旦掌握了这一点，你就有了可构建的方程式。

And you have to be perceived as exciting, interesting, mission driven, solving hard problems by tech talent. And now you know who needs to perceive you in what way in order for them to make the decisions that help you meet your mission. And once you know that, you have the equation you can build out.

你认为此刻完全错误的策略会是什么？就是人们通常会做或本能想做的事？

What do you think would have been the exactly wrong strategy at this point? The the kind of thing that people tend to do or would have the impulse to do?

成为全国追捧的品牌。这是最致命的诱惑冲动——总想成为某个领域的苹果或耐克。崔伊，我很想听听你的看法。我认为这种冲动会导致Enderal试图取悦所有人，确保没人反感，只追求流行度和大众喜爱，试图进入主流。而这会让一切变得平庸。

Become a nationally beloved brand. That is like the number one insult impulse where we wanna apple of this or the Nike of this. And Trey, I'd love to hear what you think. My opinion is like that impulse would have led Enderal to try to please everybody and make sure nobody gets mad and just be popular and beloved and try to go mainstream. And it would have watered everything down.

如今公司里许多为使命而来的人，甚至像克里斯·罗斯这样资深重要的成员，如果当初为迎合大众口味而稀释了理念，可能就不会觉得它如此吸引人了。

Probably a lot of the people inside the company today who came for that mission, even the Chris Rose, like really senior, really important people might not have found it as compelling if it had been diluted to suit popular tastes.

是的，我认为确实如此。另一种成为全国追捧品牌的方式——我更多是指受政府青睐而非普通大众——就是说了很多却言之无物。你看看其他承接大量政府项目的公司的营销姿态，简直空洞至极。他们发表言论、参加座谈、写博客文章。

Yeah. I think I think that's true. The the other version of becoming a nationally beloved brand, and I mean this more in the government beloved brand context rather than the general audience beloved brand context, is to say a lot of things and not say anything at all. This is like if you go and look at the marketing posture of other companies that do a lot of government work, there it's just nothing. Like they they say stuff, they sit on panels, they write blog posts.

比如你可以去洛克希德·马丁、波音、通用动力、雷神、诺斯罗普·格鲁曼的官网，把文字复制粘贴后闭眼再睁开，根本分不清是哪家公司的内容。它们完全无法区分，而政府就喜欢这种毫无特色的风格，因为风险低。

Like, you could go to the website of Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, and copy and paste text from one and, like, close your eyes and then open your eyes on a blank page and be like, which one of the five companies said this? You'd have no idea. You'd have no idea. They they're completely indistinguishable, and the government loves this. They love the lack of identity of any kind, because it's low risk.

这样你就不会招致批评，只说些无聊乏味的套话。创办像Anderol这样的公司时，很容易想着'我们应该尽可能无聊，不想惹恼或冒犯任何人'。但事实证明，你必须通过鲜明表态才能脱颖而出。

There's you have no you have no exposure to criticism. You're just saying boring, flaccid platitudes. And I think it's really tempting when you start a company like Anderol to say like, man, we should just be as boring as possible because we don't wanna we don't wanna annoy anyone. We don't know wanna offend anyone. And it turns out that, like, you have to say things to stand out.

我们从一开始的策略就是，看吧，我们会直言不讳。虽然不一定讨喜，但我们会坚守诚信，忠于我们所坚信的真理。

And our strategy from the beginning is, like, look, we're gonna say things. It won't always be popular, but we're going to be integrity we're gonna be in integrity with what we believe is true.

我有啊。

I have Yeah.

顺便说一句，其实政府里那些富有创造力和创新精神的人最终非常喜欢这点。听到这样的信息后，他们被激活了，对此感到非常兴奋。

Also, by the way, the Good. Really the oh, sorry, Mike. But, like, the creative, innovative people in the government actually turned out to love that. Like, they they became activated when they heard that messaging. They got really excited by it.

他们中许多人成为了Enduro的强力支持者。

A lot of them became really awesome champions of Enduro.

我有这么个情况——稍微偏离一下技术话题，或者说暂时不谈国防科技。其实我写科幻小说，写了多年科幻，现在更多在写非虚构作品。

I had this thing. It's it's a little bit of a departure from tech just for a moment or from defense technology just for a moment. I guess I write science fiction. I wrote science fiction for years. Now I'm writing more nonfiction.

Tracebook第二部。

Tracebook book two.

第二本书让我等了这么久。

Give me book two for so long.

其实读了《公民模拟》。太让人沮丧了。顺便说一句，我仍然为此讨厌你。

Actually read Citizen Sim. So frustrated. I still hate you for that, by the way.

我明白了。我是说，我需要一个代理人把它从我这里拿走。我太忙了，没时间写书。

I got it. I mean, I need an agent to take it away from me. I'm too busy to be working on book

现在。但乔治·R·R·马丁的科幻小说。

right now. But George R. R. Martin of sci fi.

我已经准备好第二本书了。现在只需要合适的人来打包整件事，因为我已经有一大群读者等着买书了。这个话题改天再谈。重点是，我真的坚持认为自己是个科幻作家或小说作家。所以多年来，我在网上对自己的观点遮遮掩掩，我想表达但又不想影响我的品牌形象什么的。

I've got book two ready to go. Just need the right person to pack the whole thing up now that I've got a big old audience looking to buy the book. A topic for another day. The point is just, I was really committed to this idea of myself as a, science fiction writer or fiction writer. And and so for years, I kind of danced around my opinions online, and I didn't I kind of wanted to give them, but didn't I didn't want it to sort of, like, affect my brand or something.

讽刺的是，直到我开始发表观点，我才真正有了听众。人们不在乎我说什么，除非我真的说了些什么——这个道理看似显而易见，却似乎没人真正明白，而且人们总在不断重蹈覆辙。我认为任何成功表达过观点的人都明白这个道理，除非你天生就管不住嘴。但我觉得这是个被严重低估的重要观点：你必须先发声。

And it wasn't ironically, it was not until I started saying things that I had an audience at all. Like, the people didn't care what I had to say until I said something, which is something that it it feels like, almost too obvious to share, and yet nobody seems to understand this, and it's a lesson that people keep having to learn. And it is a lesson that I think anyone who's ever succeeded at saying something has learned at some point, unless you just, I don't know, can't help yourself and you just run your mouth constantly. But I I do think it's like a weirdly underexplored and important point is is that you have to say something.

Lux团队经常提到这点，斯科特·鲁宾提出的：没有思想就当不了思想领袖。很多人只想当思想领袖，却拿不出任何值得关注的新颖观点。关于明确目标并忽略非目标这件事，我最后想到的是：那些因此拒绝在安德尔工作的人，本来就不该在那里工作。他们不在反而更好，如今公司正因为他们的缺席而变得更优秀。

Something that came the the Lux guys say this a lot, and Scott Rubin over there, I think, came up with it is you can't be a thought leader if you don't have thoughts. And a lot of people approach it as I just want to be a thought leader and here's things, but it's not anything noteworthy or novel. The last thing that I can think of on this topic, on the topic of being really specific about your goals and kind of ignoring what's not your goals, is the people who decided not to work at Anderle because of that are people who absolutely shouldn't have worked there. And it's awesome that they don't work there. And today, the company is better because of who doesn't work there.

是的。我想...我们今天谈了很多，所以我想转到...我的意思是，我不想...我不想再纠缠这个话题了，大家现在都明白了。我认为你的立场就是根本不需要去《纽约时报》发声。毕竟你手里已经握着扩音器了。

Yes. I wanna I wanna we had a lot here, so I wanna move on to I mean, I I wouldn't like to I'm not gonna belee beleaguer go direct. We kind of all know it at this point. This is a I think your position is like you just don't need to go to the New York Times. Like, you have you have a you have a megaphone potentially.

我想就这个例子提个问题。你知道，像Palmer这样的人，事情就很简单。很多人觉得工作不容易，但直接沟通这部分确实轻松。确实有人在乎Palmer的观点。我也知道很多创业者在这方面很挣扎。

I guess for this one, do have a question. You know, with someone like Palmer, it was very easy. There are a lot of people who not the job was easy, but, like, this part going direct was easy. There are people who care what Palmer has to say. I do know that a lot of founders struggle with, like, sure.

我可以直接沟通，但你知道，我既没有推特粉丝，也没有播客之类的平台。你们会建议如何应对这种情况？比如如果没有Palmer这样的人物——他就像绿巨人一样。对吧？如果董事会里没有这样的核心人物，该怎么直接行动？

I can go direct, but, you know, I don't have any Twitter followers or, you know, I don't have a podcast or something. How do you recommend how would either of you recommend navigating that? Like, if you didn't have a Palmer like, he's like the Hulk. Right? If you don't have a Hulk on the board, what do you do for going direct?

建立受众群体所需的时间比人们想象的要短。首先，如果现在没有受众是个问题，那么一年或五年后这仍会是个问题。所以你应该现在就开始培养受众。其次，这并不需要人们想象的那么长时间或精力。Mike，我们合作过很多，或者说到Substack后我们经常交流。

It takes less time than people think to build an audience. I mean, first of all, if it's a problem that you don't have an audience, then that's a problem you don't want to have a year from now or five years from now. So you should go build one today so that you don't have that problem later. But secondly, it doesn't take as long or as much as people think. So Mike, you and I worked together quite a bit, or we chatted quite a bit once I got to Substack.

在那之前，不知道你是否注意到，我在推特上大概只有1000或200粉丝。具体数字记不清了，总之很少。这无关紧要。后来在Substack，当我们最初遭到《纽约时报》攻击，随后一段时间大家都在攻击我们时，我意识到应该建立自己的受众群体，因为这将形成反击的杠杆。

Before that, I don't know if you noticed, I had like 1,000 followers on Twitter or 200. I don't know. Was like something something small. It didn't matter. And then at Substack, when we started getting attacked at first specifically by The New York Times and then for a while everybody, I decided I should probably go and build an audience because this is gonna be leverage, and this is how we fight back.

这个过程花了大概六个月。期间充满挫折和各种尴尬难堪的时刻，需要投入时间和精力。但只要坚持去做，不到一年就能建立起受众群体。

And it took, like, six months cut. You know, it was it was frustrating and all sort of cringey and embarrassing, and you have to put in work and time. But under a year, you can build an audience if you just work on it.

没错。这是我第一次见识到这种对抗性公关策略——公司的公关负责人直接对媒体说他们很蠢。作为当时Substack的用户，现在的小股东，我确实很欣赏这种做法。你必须像 insurgent（反叛者）那样行动，而不是 incumbent（在位者）。

Yeah. This was a this was, like, the first I saw of the combative PR strategy where, like, the PR lead for a company was just telling the press to like, they were idiots, basically, and it was, enjoyable certainly as a person who was at that time on Substack. I and now minor investor in Substack. Definitely loved it. You have act like an insurgent, not an incumbent.

你们增加了压力却缩小了范围。能不能...就像你刚才列了个方程式？我觉得这个...不需要在单元格里看到...不是单元格...那是什么？

You have increased pressure and decrease area. Can you, like you you, like, broke out an equation for this one. I'm like, it was a very you don't have to see that in, like, in cell space. Not in cell. What is it?

词

Word

单元格。看到那个词单元格里的空格了吗？你能分解一下这个等式，并大致带我们过一遍你当时的思路吗？

cell. See that in word cell spaces. Can you break the equation down and kinda just, like, walk us through what you were thinking about there?

呃，刚才迈克·索拉纳骂我的那段没被录下来

Well, it wasn't recorded that Mike Solana just called me an

侮辱。确实。他确实骂了。没错。我们是查德。

insult. Did. He did. Yes. We're Chads.

我们还在笑

We're still laughing

现在呢。

right now.

我们是查德。

We're Chads.

这是什么模拟？好吧。这和物理学中的概念是一样的。压力等于力除以表面积。也就是说，给定一个力的大小，如果你将其分散在很大的表面积上，压力就会很小；反之，如果集中在一个小面积上，就会产生巨大的压力。

What is this simulation? Okay. So it it's it's the same it's in cons as in physics. Pressure equals force over surface area. So it's this given an amount of force, if you spread it over a lot of surface area, there's very little pressure, versus if you concentrate the surface area, there's tremendous pressure.

这就是为什么针能刺穿物体，而一张纸却很难做到。在沟通中运用这个原理就是：如果你处于攻势，你会希望集中压力以突破防线。比如说，当你不得不对抗时，比如一群人针对你（Mike）发起攻击，与其单枪匹马对抗全世界，不如选择其中一人重点打击，将其从群体中孤立出来，用他作为其他人错误的象征。这比‘我一人对抗所有人’要容易得多。

That's why, like, a needle can poke through, whereas a sheet of paper has a harder time. And the way to use that in comms is if you are on offense, you want to concentrate the pressure because you want to break through. So let's say that if you do have to get adversarial, let's say that a bunch of people come after you, Mike, and they're attacking you. Well, as opposed to making it you versus the world, you might want to pick one of them and just hammer away at that person and break them apart from the pack, use them as a symbol of what's wrong for all the rest of them. It's easier than being like me versus everybody.

而如果你处于守势，则需要分散压力、稀释冲击力。比如当有人攻击你时，你可以将其描述为他们在攻击独立创作者、作家、播客主、创业者以及想在媒体领域立足的人，把局面塑造成你是在为这个群体和事业挺身而出，而不是孤立无援地独自承受。我们在NDRL和Substack就运用过这个策略——这是个普适原则：攻击NDRL就是在攻击那些通过创新让美国更强大的人，攻击那些真正想与政府合作的人。

Whereas if you're on defense, then you want to diffuse the pressure you want to diffuse the force so that there's less pressure So on if someone is attacking you, in this case, you would say, you would frame it as they're attacking independent creators, they're attacking writers, they're attacking podcasters, they're attacking entrepreneurs and people who want to have a foothold in media, and make it about you're standing up for this cause and you're standing up for this community, as opposed to you being isolated where others won't stand up for you. And we did this a little bit with NDRL, with Substack. Like, it's a pretty universal principle. Like, if you're attacking NDRL, you're attacking people who want to innovate to make America stronger. You're attacking people who actually want to collaborate with the government.

为什么要攻击这些？这绝对是好事。或者攻击Substack就是在攻击独立思考，攻击独立创作者，攻击作家和记者。

Why are you attacking that? That's unequivocally a good thing. Or if you're attacking Substack, you're attacking independent thought. You're attacking independent creators. You're attacking writers and journalists.

所以为什么要这么做？我认为这对每位创始人和公司都是极其重要的原则：当遭受攻击时，你需要设法分散压力，避免独自承受所有攻击；而当你进攻时，则要尽可能集中火力。

And so why would you do that? I think this is this is like a very, very important principle for every founder and every company is like, if you are being attacked, you need to find a way to diffuse that pressure so that it's not you naked and alone taking arrows. And then if you're on offense, you wanna concentrate it as much as possible.

有意思的是，这似乎也是媒体惯用的方程式。当他们出于某种原因想搞垮一家公司时，往往会抓住某个古怪的失误或负面事件，将其渲染成整个体系的代表。从Uber到最近的自动驾驶汽车事件，我们见过太多这样的案例。

Yeah. This is interesting because it it seems to be an equation that the press itself follows. You know, oftentimes when, they wanna take down an entire company that's offending them for some reason, it's like you find some some one weird thing that has gone wrong, one really bad story, and you sort of frame that as the entire machine. Right? We've seen this with everything from Uber to more recently the self driving car stuff.

对吧？可能避免了无数因酒驾引发的交通事故，但只要发生一起事故，这家公司的形象就被定格了。所以这就像是从攻击者那里借鉴策略，并把这些工具转化为己用。

Right? You have one you have a bunch of fake accidents. You have potentially a lot of life saved because you're taking drunk drivers off the road and things like this. You have one accident, and that becomes what the company is. So it's like you're sort of adopting from the people who are attacking and using those tools in your favor.

不？

No?

这是普遍现象。是的。我记得特雷会有很多关于应对攻击的故事。早期这种情况很多，现在偶尔也有，但如今防御技术很热门，人们会对你进行人身攻击，特雷。他们会专门针对你个人进行攻击。

It's universal. Yeah. I remember I remember a lot of, like Trey will have stories about fielding attacks. But there was a lot of that in the early days, still sporadically now, but defense tech is hot now, where people would attack you, Trey, like ad hominem. People would talk about you specifically as a person.

理想情况下，这种攻击应该分散到整个行业。为什么要针对某个个人？但人们就是会这样做。

Ideally, that could be spread out across, like, the whole industry. Why are you attacking one individual for this? But that's what, you know, that's what people would do.

等等。我需要一些特雷被个人攻击的具体例子。我是说，

Wait. I need some examples of trade being attacked personally. I mean,

确实有很多。我想在2017到2021年左右，情况与过去两三年不同。那时人们会把国家安全或边境安全视为反全球化或种族主义之类的东西。所以他们会攻击我，说我是美国例外论者之类的。确实如此。

there there were there were a lot. I mean, I think in, you know, 2017 to 2021 or whatever was a different window than the last two or three years. But, you know, people would would think of national security or border security or whatever as being like foundationally anti globalist or racist or something like that. And so people would come at me and be like, you know, you're you're being like an American exceptionalist or something like that. And yes.

我认为这种情况显然已经改变了，因为人们开始意识到历史终结论并未真正实现。世界上仍然有坏人想伤害无辜者，必须有人站出来保护他们，否则他们只会被践踏。所以现在认为历史已经终结的观点，比几年前更不受欢迎了。

And I think like obviously this has shifted because people are starting to realize that the geopolitical end of history did not actually occur. And there's still like bad people that want to do bad things to innocent people in the world. And someone has to stand up for them. Otherwise, they're just going to get walked over. And so I think it's like less popular to think that we've reached an end of history than it was just even a few years ago.

但我想说的是，正如露露指出的，我学到的一点是：我过去花太多时间愤怒于主流媒体有多愚蠢——或者说我认为他们很愚蠢。而现在，我更多是可怜他们。他们的激励机制迫使他们必须讲述特定故事，才能在日常职业中获得认同感。虽然他们从理智上相信自己做得对，但这些内容对人类越来越没有价值。

But I think, you know, to Lulu's point, one of the one of the things that I think I learned is that I I spent so much time just being angry at how stupid the mainstream media was or I perceived that they were stupid. And I think, like, I I mostly just pity them at this point. Like, their incentive structure kind of sets them up that they have to tell a specific story in order to feel, like, validated in their day to day career. And I think they've convinced themselves, like, intellectually that they're actually doing the right thing. But it's it's, like, less and less interesting to humanity.

就像，他们因为不讲述真实故事而变得无关紧要，只专注于政治攻击文章。所以我认为，讲述自己的故事部分就像露露刚才说的增加接触面。你必须向人们指出，他们试图提供的整个激励方案从根本上在哲学层面就是有问题的。这样做，你某种程度上让他们免疫了，因为某种程度上他们会想，如果你能讲出比我更好的故事，我就不来找你麻烦了，因为这对他们来说风险更大。这样大家就都冷静下来了。

Like, they're just becoming irrelevant by not actually telling real stories and just focusing on, like, political hit hit pieces. And so I think part of, like, telling your own story is what Lulu just said about increasing surface area. It's like you have to point out to people that the whole incentive package that they're trying to deliver is, like, foundationally philosophically broken. And doing that, you kind of immunize them because in some ways they're like, well, I'm not gonna come at you if you actually come back with like a better story than what I'm delivering because that increases risk to them. And so it just kind of calms everyone down.

我认为，当涉及到你在哪里讲述这个故事时，回到'直接行动'这一点，我觉得我能把接下来的两点联系起来。露露，如果我错了请纠正我。在'钉牢叙事'之后——这是你的下一个策略，也就是不断重复同一个叙事，你可以根据需要反复强调——但我想直接谈'核心圈优先'和'赢得部落领袖'。我认为这归根结底是，作为创始人你如何传播你想讲的故事。我的理解是，核心圈就是你的团队，你要先在内部传播和塑造这个故事。

I think and also like when it comes to where you're delivering this story to go back to the Go Direct piece, it kind of I think real I think I'm gonna be able to relate it to these next two. Lulu, correct me if I'm wrong. But after Nail the Narrative, which is your next one, which is sort of, like, repeating the narrative over and over again, and you can hit it again if if if you want to, but I wanna get to just you had, inner circle comes first and win over the tribal leaders. And this, I think, comes down to, like, this is really how you're disseminating the story that you wanna tell as a founder. My read of this is, like, inner circle is you know, that's your team, and you're gonna sort of disseminate that inform that that story sort of internally.

然后部落领袖的范围更广，对吧？这是指你要接触行业内的领袖人物，公司外部的人。你能稍微谈谈这个吗？我有个联想。

And then tribal leaders, that's more broad. Right? That's like you're hitting up you're hitting up the leaders in in the industry outside of out out outside of your company. Can you maybe just, like, speak to that for a second? And I've got a a connection I wanna make.

是的。有位著名将军说过一句话：'当我发现问题时，我会沿着同心圆追溯，最终回到自己的办公桌。'这就是同心圆比喻的灵感来源。你必须由内向外推进，有几个原因：如果你不先从最接近公司的人开始，而是跳过他们直接面向公众，那些亲近公司的人可能不知道发生了什么，他们可能会困惑，发出的信息可能与你的相矛盾。

Yeah. There's there's a quote from a famous general that says, when I see a problem, I trace it in concentric circles going back eventually to my own desk. And that's what inspired this metaphor of concentric circles. And you have to start inward and go outward for a couple of reasons. If you don't start with the people who are closest to the company and then you skip them and go straight to the public, the people who are close to the company might not know what is going They might be confused, and they might put out a message that contradicts with yours.

这样你就会失去大量信任。或者他们可能看到你以未曾向他们通报过的方式对公众讲话，这会让他们感到困惑，觉得自己可能并不真正属于这个使命。所以从核心圈开始向外推进至关重要。

And now you've lost an enormous amount of trust. Or they might see you speaking to public in a way that you haven't already briefed them on. And now they're confused. And now they feel like maybe they're not really part of this mission. So it's just super, super critical to start with the inner circles and go out.

通常，如果你要宣布某事或进行品牌重塑等行动，首先要确保创始人达成一致，然后是高管团队、员工，接着是投资者、关键客户，再向外扩展到影响者。你需要按正确顺序推进。那么，你想在这个点上多讨论一会儿，还是我继续？

So usually, if you are trying to announce something or trying to do a rebrand or whatever you're doing, start with the make sure the founders are on the same page, get the executive team, get employees, and then go to investors, then go to key customers, then go to influencers and go outward from there. And so you just want to sequence it the right way. And then talking to well, do you want to dwell on that for a moment or do you want me to go on

是的，我

Yeah, I

我想详细谈谈这一点，因为在Andoril早期就有一个非常重要的故事——当时不只是谷歌（顺便说下它是最出名的），其他科技巨头也面临类似情况。员工们集体反对参与'Project Maven'项目，他们表示不愿为国防部工作，甚至完全拒绝与联邦政府合作。这件事之所以爆发，是因为公司高管和销售团队在暗中推进政府合作，而工程师、项目经理等其他团队成员却毫不知情。当他们发现自己已被纳入政府合同时，无论对错，都感到被欺骗了——这完全违背了他们当初加入公司的初衷。

would like to dwell on that actually, because there's a really important story that came out of this in the early days of Andoril where, you know, these other big tech companies Google was not the only one, by the way, but they were the most famous related to this Project Maven activism was basically the employee base is saying, we don't want to do work with the Department of Defense or we don't want to do work with the federal government at all. And the reason that those things became so explosive was because the company, the executives, the sales team, whatever, they were trying to sell to the government. And the rest of the team, maybe the engineering team, maybe the project managers, whatever, they didn't know that this was happening. And so when it happened and they found out that they were under contract, they got pissed rightfully or wrongfully. You know, they felt like it was not what they signed up for.

所以在Andro，我们其实用比较温和的方式传递过这个信息。这看起来理所当然：如果你加入国防科技公司，我们显然是要向政府销售的。但我们之前并没有特别强硬或明确地强调这点。直到有次接受记者采访时，我犯了个愚蠢的错误——他一直追问不休。

And so, you know, at Andro, we we had kind of messaged this in a in a soft way. Like, it just seems so obvious. Like, yeah, if you're joining a defense tech company, you're we're obviously selling to the government. But we hadn't like gotten super aggressive or explicit with it necessarily. And then in talking to a journalist, I kind of made this dumb mistake where he kept poking me.

最后我直接说：'当你加入Androle时，你就是来造武器的。这就是你的工作，没有任何幻想。每个进门的人都清楚这一点。'结果这句话给我惹了大麻烦。

And finally, I said, look, when you join Androle, you're signing up to build weapons. Like, that's what you're doing. There's no there's no illusions. Everyone that comes in the door knows that this is the case. And I got in a lot of trouble for this.

甚至在我们内部网络里，同事们都没太大反应，因为事实确实如此——他们都知道自己在做什么。但外界反应却是'天啊这话太劲爆了'，结果成了新闻头条。这真的很遗憾。

Like, in even in our network, people internally didn't really blink an eye because it turns out it was right. They all knew what they were doing, But people were like, oh crap, like that's a really spicy comment ended up being like the headline of the story. It was it was unfortunate.

国防科技公司就是造武器的。

Defense technology company builds weapons.

没错。所以现在我们会直接在内部说清楚：'如果你加入Andoril，你就是来造武器的。这就是我们的本质。'这样所有人都能达成共识。

Yeah, exactly. And so and so now we we just this is like a thing we say internally. We just tell people like, look, if you join Andoril, you're joining to build weapons. That's what this is. And so everyone's on the same page.

这让我们的整体沟通策略变得简单多了——我们不用如履薄冰地担心会给内部人员'惊喜'。所有人都心知肚明，我们非常透明。我认为这点至关重要。

And that makes our whole comm strategy much easier because we're not like walking on eggshells to make sure that we're not like surprising people internally. It's like everyone knows. We're we're very clear and I I think that's really important.

你从没遇到过员工大惊小怪的情况吧？当他们发现安德尔公司在开发某某产品时，明明入职时就知道工作内容。

And you've never had an employee like clutch their pearls, right, when they find out that Anderle is building so and so because that's what they signed up for when they walk in the door.

是啊是啊，人尽皆知。

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody knows.

你觉得媒体那反应是怎么回事？国防科技公司又不是什么新鲜事物。他们的惊讶点到底在哪？还是说这种冲击感更多来自科技行业当时整体氛围的违和感？比如我想到那些科技颁奖礼，满口谷歌式甜腻语言，到处是笑脸符号那种虚假正能量。

What do you think that press reaction even was? It's not as if defense technology companies had never existed before. Like, where did the surprise actually come from? Or was it more just the jarring maybe overlay between the what tech in general has had become at that point? Like, the I'm thinking of, like, the crunchies, and we're gonna it's like the very, like, Google sort of language that that was, like, very, like, benign and happy and, like, it's like smiley faces everywhere.

是这种氛围和军工的结合让他们发疯吗？毕竟他们明明知道国防科技公司是什么。

Is it, like, the combination of that thing with defense that drove them crazy? Because, obviously, they know what a defense technology company is.

不，我觉得两者都不是。记得我们之前聊过这个，索拉娜。我以前会逐页读完《连线》杂志——在华盛顿坐地铁通勤时，我就这么一页页翻着看。

No. I don't I don't actually think it was either of those things. I think it was, you know, you and I, I know we've talked about this before, Solana. I used to read Wired magazine from cover to cover. Like, would sit on the, you know, on the metro in DC on my way into work and I would just page by page, just read through Wired magazine.

通过它了解世界上正在发生的酷炫事物，阅读那些创办伟大公司的创始人故事。合上杂志放回背包时总会想：这太棒了，世界充满激动人心的可能。但如今——甚至可以用《连线》作为缩影——媒体完全不是这种互动方式了，没人愿意写关于未来潜力的积极故事。

I would learn about all this really cool stuff that was going on in the world and read about founders who were starting great companies. And I would finish and I'd put it back in my backpack and I think, this is great. There's so much exciting stuff going on in the world. And somehow, some way, and you can use even Wired Magazine as like a microcosm of this, this is just not the way the media interacts anymore. There's no no one is interested in writing positive, like, stories about potential, things that can happen in the future.

现在全是危言耸听。所以媒体看到国防科技公司时，第一反应就是：我们可以写战略威慑版本，可以找让军人远离危险岗位的角度，总之要渲染'肮脏危险'的叙事。

It's all just, like, scaremongering. And so I think what happened is the media is like, okay. There's a defense technology company. There's probably some version of this that we could tell about strategic deterrence. There's probably some angle we could tell about getting our men and women out of harm's way, doing dull, dirty, or dangerous jobs.

或许我们可以编个故事，比如技术突飞猛进到让对手几乎无法竞争的程度，这样他们就会彻底放弃竞争。但实际上呢？好吧，终结者的故事显然更有趣。所以我们只能讲述那些渲染世界末日的故事。

There's probably some story that we could tell about, like, advancing the state of the art so that it makes it almost impossible for our adversaries to compete. Therefore, they won't compete at all. But instead, it was like, okay. But the Terminator story is way more interesting. And so the only story that we can tell is the one that hypes the scariest possible outcomes in this world.

这就是他们必须做的，别无选择。没人有兴趣或勇气去写其他版本的故事。所以你只能带着这种心态参与其中——我早知道他们会怎么做，他们肯定会把这搞得超级负面悲观。

And so that's just what they have to do. There's no alternative. There's no one with the interest or the courage to write something other than that story. And so you just have to go into these engagements with that mind where you're just like, I know what they're gonna do. They're gonna try to make this some super negative pessimistic thing.

那么，他们需要听到什么信息才能至少接受——未来还存在另一种可能性？

And so, like, what is the message they need to hear to get them to the point where they at least accept that there is an there is an alternate future that's possible.

但你说到点子上了。他们只想讲终结者的故事，因为这确实是个好故事。《终结者》是部伟大的电影，《终结者2》更是精彩绝伦，扣人心弦。

But it is you made such a good point. The Terminator story is all they wanna tell, and the reason is because it's such a good story. Like, Terminator is a great movie. Terminator two is an amazing movie. It's riveting.

剧情跌宕起伏，场面激动人心，简直帅炸了。阿诺德·施瓦辛格的参演让我们都爱上了终结者。

It's dramatic. It's exciting. It's, like, badass. Arnold Schwarzenegger's involved. Like, we love the terminator.

反乌托邦神话和反科技神话更容易讲述，因为它们自带张力与戏剧性。我时常思考这些负面叙事背后有多少是政治动机，又有多少纯粹是因为讲邪恶故事很有趣。露露，我很想听听你的看法。

The dystopian myths and the anti tech myths are they're easier stories to tell. There's so much natural tension. There's so much natural drama. I sometimes go back and forth on, like, how much of the motivation behind the negativity is even political so much as, like, are just fun stories to tell when someone's doing really evil shit. Like, how do you Lulu, I would love your thoughts on this.

面对如此华丽又阴暗的强大叙事，你该如何反击？该怎么与之对抗？

Like, how do you combat such, like, lush, powerful narratives that are that are dark? How do you how do you fight back against that?

嗯，这个答案的一部分也回应了迈克你关于‘为什么故事会变成这样’的问题。我认为这是激励机制的问题。德里克·汤普森对此的思考比我深入得多，但我的初步分析是每个人都会对激励做出反应。而当前媒体的激励机制相当混乱。要成为一名作家真的非常非常困难。

Well, part of the answer is also an answer to your question, Mike, about why do stories turn out this way? And I think it's a question of incentives. So Derek Thompson has been very thoughtful on this more than me, but my more rudimentary analysis is everybody responds to incentives. And the incentives right now in media are pretty messed up. It's really, really hard to be a writer.

有一些出色、勤奋、有原则、诚实且道德的记者正在被剥削。是的。但即使在传统新闻编辑室，他们也被商业模式所利用。他们没有得到应有的对待。我希望他们都能独立出来。

There are some awesome, hardworking, principled, honest, ethical journalists who are being taken advantage of. Yeah. But even in traditional newsrooms, they're being taken advantage of by the business model. They're not being treated as they should be. I wish they would all go independent.

但为了获得读者群和尽可能多的参与度以保障工作稳定，存在一种激励。为了让你写的文章能登上网站排行榜，存在一种追逐最炫目、最吸引点击的内容的激励。这导致了类似我刚刚提到的现象——不知道你们能否从我手机上看到——在《连线》杂志的搜索栏里。

But there is an incentive to get readership get as much engagement readership as possible so that you can get that job security. There's an incentive to latch onto the flashiest, clickiest thing so that your article becomes one of the ones on the leaderboard of the site. And so that results in things like this, which I was just pulling up. I don't know if you can see on my phone. Wired, you go to the search bar.

搜索栏的默认搜索词是‘种族主义的白色药丸’。白色药丸就是它。但我认为这甚至不是这些记者个人的错。整个行业在扭曲的商业模式下承受着巨大压力，导致人们不得不抓住这些在某种程度上违背他们初衷的东西。这是其一。

The default search in the search bar is racial on White white pill. White pill is it. But I I don't think it's even the fault of a lot of these individual journalists. It's like the the industry is under so much pressure from a messed up business model that people are just reaching for these other things that are sort of a corruption of what they probably would like to do in a lot of cases. So that's one.

就像激励机制被扭曲了。然后回答你刚才的问题‘如何应对’——第二点是必须重塑激励机制。既然知道人们都受激励驱动，就要为可能攻击你的人设置障碍，让攻击行为变得困难且缺乏吸引力。每次攻击你都应该让他们感到不快，让他们不愿这样做。

It's just like the incentives are messed up. And then in answer two, in answer to what you just asked, how do you combat that? One is you have to reshape the incentives. So knowing that everybody acts on incentives, you have to shape the incentives for the people who might attack you to make it harder to attack you and less appealing. It should be difficult and annoying.

这应该让他们失去职业安全感，损害他们的声誉。因此方法之一是建立规范，这就是确立威慑力。

Every time they attack you, it should be unpleasant for them, and they should not want to do it. It should create the opposite of job security for them. It should create the opposite of prestige for them. And so one way to do that is to set a norm. This is establish deterrence.

要确立这样的规范：当人们对你撒谎或歪曲事实时，你不会忍气吞声。上市公司在这方面会采取类似‘引导市场预期’的做法，对吧？你要让投资者习惯你的行为模式，这样他们能判断什么是正常情况。同样，你要让媒体和受众知道你面对攻击时的反应方式——这就是常态。

Set a norm that when people tell lies about you, misrepresent you, you're not going to take it. And public companies do this in a way like public companies will say they're priming the market, right? You want to get investors used to this is how you behave so that they know if something is normal or unusual. And you want press and your audience to know this is how you respond to attacks. And it's just normal.

最不该做的就是一直隐忍然后突然爆发，因为这样人们会想：你到底在怕什么？发生什么了？你崩溃了吗？为什么反应这么激烈？是在防御吗？

What you don't want to do is never do it and then suddenly pop off because then people will be like, what what are you scared? Like, what's going on? Are you in crisis? Why are you overreacting? Are you being defensive?

你需要建立自己的节奏。

You want to just build your own rhythm.

我认为关键是要结盟。媒体生态已发生巨变，现在创始人、创业者、科技从业者能找到许多盟友——他们能帮忙传播自身故事并反击这类攻击。说到威慑力，我常想起自己作为科技圈网络传播者的经历。作为Founders Fund的首席营销官，

You need to ally I think this is an important point. I wanna talk about this a little bit because, the media the media ecosystem has changed in such a way as there are now a lot of allies for founders, entrepreneurs, people working in tech, who they can go to for help kind of getting their own story out and fighting back against stuff like this. You talk about deterrence. I think a lot about my own journey as a sort of, like, communicating type person online, you know, in tech. Like, I I am the CMO at Founders Fund.

我运营着一家媒体公司。但五年前根本没人认识我，尤其在网络世界毫无影响力。面对那些人时我毫无还手之力，这很可怕。有趣的是，当我影响力最弱时，反而遭受更多媒体攻击——特别是科技记者的围攻。

I run a media company. But a few years ago, five years ago, nobody knew who I was. And at least not online, nobody knew who I was. I didn't have any real power against these people, and it was frightening. And interestingly enough, like, when I had far less influence, I got attacked far more often by the press specifically, like tech journalists.

那时他们最爱拿我开涮。但随着粉丝增长，随着我们这类支持商业、热爱科技、批判行业但力挺企业生存的声音在科技圈激增，我们形成了广泛威慑力。现在甚至不需要从零构建——你可以直接接入现成的志同道合者网络。

They loved to dunk on me back then. As my follower count increased and as the the friends that we all have sort of online, I don't know, proliferated when there were suddenly way more voices in tech that were sort of just, I think, outwardly pro business, pro technology, critical of the industry, but just, like, pro our existence. As we became more dominant, we did establish broad deterrence. And I think now it's, like, not even necessarily and correct me if I'm wrong, but my sense is it's maybe not even necessarily about you don't have to build this from scratch. Like, you can plug into a network of people who are sort of interested in this.

对此你怎么看？

What do think about that?

我曾对没有粉丝基础的创始人说过：'写点能让Mike Solana转发的内容'。虽然不完全是你说的意思，但现在有大批人受够了不公攻击。当压力来袭时，重点不再是'我被污名化'，而是'他们又在搞我们讨厌的那套'。你把事件扩散到广阔平台，就会涌现千万个声援光点——你可能不是声浪中最响亮的那个，但像你这样拥有大量粉丝的关心者会让创始人更容易获得支持。

I have said to founders before who don't have their own audience the sentence, write something that hopefully Mike Solana will retweet. And and I don't know if that's exactly what you're talking about, but there is so much more now of a groundswell of people who are fed up of unfair attacks and who feel like talking about diffusing the pressure when it's attacked on you, instead of it being, I'm being called something bad, it is now, they're doing it again, this thing that we all hate. You're spreading it across this huge surface area, and then you get sort of 1,000 points of light to rise up. You you may not be the biggest account in that uprising of voices, but people like you and other people with big followings also care about the issue. And so I think it's really easy now for founders.

我不想把话说得过于轻松，但对创始人来说，现在比以往更容易接触到并找到愿意支持他们的人群。

I I I don't wanna make it sound overly easy, but it's much easier than it was before for founders to tap into that and find a community of people who's willing to support them.

是的。他们至少拥有这种天然的群众基础，这让我想到你提到的观点之一——赢得部落长老的支持。能详细解释一下吗？

Yeah. They have this natural base of support at least, which kind of brings me to one of your your points, which does bring me to one of your points on win over your tribal elders. Can you break that down for me?

没错。我在文章里说过，我们与ENDRA合作时做的第一件事，就是特雷和我花了一周左右时间在华盛顿四处奔走，穿上西装外套与人会面。这是在试图找出那些部落长老或影响者——当你与他们交谈后，他们会再去影响十个人。你需要的是扩音器。传播信息的正确方式是找到十个这样的人，让他们各自去影响十个人，如此扩散，而不是你同时向所有人喊话。

Yeah. Well, I said in the piece, one of the first things that we did with ENDRA was Trey and I just spent like, what, a week kind of gallivanting around DC and putting on blazers and meeting with people. And that was trying to find who are the tribal elders or who are the influencers, that when you talk to them, they're going to go and talk to 10 other people. What you want is amplifiers. And the way that you spread a message is to find 10 of those and then have them go out and tell 10 people and have them go out and tell 10 people as opposed to you trying to tell everybody at the same time.

这种方式有几个优势：一是第三方说比你自己说更有可信度。自我宣传难免显得自私，而当你选择这些影响者并争取到他们支持后，传播就会更自然，无需你亲自推动。二是他们比你更清楚应该找谁沟通。

So it works in a couple of ways. One is it's more credible coming from someone else than you. Like, you talking about yourself is self serving on its face. Whereas when you pick these influencers and brief them and get them on board, then it becomes more organic and it spreads without you, which is a lot better. And then two is they actually know whom to talk to more than you would.

比如我们当初列了约50人的名单。如果要列2000人名单，我一开始根本无从下手。现在特雷可能不假思索就能列出来，但最初我们并不确定哪些是合适人选。不过我们可以从确定的核心人物开始，而他们自然知道该联系谁——因为那些人就在他们的社交圈里。

Like, we put together a list of, I don't know, 50 names. If we had to put together 2,000 names, I wouldn't have known whom to put on there, like, right away. Like, today, Trey could probably do it off the top of his head. But in the beginning, it it was unclear who those right names would be. But we could start with people who definitely were it, and then they knew the right people to talk to because it was just in their orbit.

特雷其实一直在做这件事——他不断组织各种活动。人们看不到99%的传播策略，只有少数公开时刻，大部分都是日复一日的耕耘。比如特雷会组织五人晚宴或闭门活动，这些从不公开，但真正的功夫往往下在这些地方。

I mean, Trey, you've been doing that basically all along. Like, you're constantly hosting stuff. Basically, people don't even see 99% of the comm strategy. There's like a few public moments, but most of it is just grinding day in and day out. Trey is, like, hosting five person dinners or closed door events that nobody ever hears about, but I think that's where a lot of the real real work gets done.

我认为传播工作最困难的地方在于——尤其在科技圈——它历来不被重视。很多这类工作会被打上引号。就像你说的五人晚宴，很多工程师型的人可能会翻白眼，因为他们不理解'朋友'的价值——那些愿意公开为你发声、能影响文化走向的强力盟友。他们或许不明白这种关系有多强大。抱歉特雷，我不是...

It's not I think that one of the most difficult things for people when it comes to comms is, like, especially in tech, it it has historically not been taken seriously. And a lot of the kind of work is it's like work with air quotes around it. Like, you just said a five person dinner, and I think a lot of sort of more engineering type people might roll their eyes because they don't understand the value of, like, friends. Like, strong friends who are willing to fight for you publicly, who are plugged into situations where they can influence culture, and they don't understand maybe maybe they don't understand how how powerful that is. Do you hate sorry, Trey.

我想跳过你，但又因为露露一直从事传播工作而犹豫。就像我说的，传播工作其实一直没被认真对待，对吧？这可能是很多创始人的通病，他们从根本上就不重视传播，直到需要时才意识到它的缺失。

I wanna skip over you, but do wanna because Lulu's been in comms forever. Like, do am I right there that, like, it hasn't really been taken seriously? Maybe that's the problem that a lot of founders have, and they just, like, fundamentally don't value comms and then until they need it and then they don't have it.

没错。我认为传播和公关长期以来做得太差，导致人们完全否定这个领域。很多创始人一听到‘传播’就避之不及。我不怪他们，因为我们见到的大多数传播案例都与他们无关且不感兴趣——就像1997年霍尼韦尔那种追着记者求报道的新闻稿。

Yeah. I think comms and PR have been done poorly for so long that people dismiss the entire thing. There are a lot of founders who just hear comms, and they already don't want to deal with it. And I don't blame them because the vast majority of comms that we see and hear about is stuff that they don't relate to and don't want. It's sort of like Honeywell 1997 type press release calling up reporters and begging them to write a story.

所以我理解人们的反应。说真的，听到‘传播和公关’会让你兴奋吗？不会吧。

So I don't blame people. Like, when you hear comms and PR, does it make you excited? No. Probably not.

是的。我认为关键差异在于——这也是露露早期推动我们的——很多人把传播策略理解为处理媒体问询、写新闻稿、准备全员会议讲话要点这类事务。而我们视传播为战略武器：我们要主动向世界透明传达安杜里尔的故事，这样当有人试图曲解时，他们就不得不解释为何其说法与我们公布的事实相悖。比如这份文件就是例证。

Yeah. I think one of the the big differences, and this was a push that Lulu made for us early on, is that a lot of people think about their comm strategy is like how you manage inbound media inquiries and who's like moving pieces of paper around and writing press releases and, you know, coming up with like talking points for internal all hands meetings and things like that. Whereas we view comms strategically. It was like, what is what is the story we want people to know about Andruil so that if somebody tries to frame it in a different way, it's they're going to have to fight through explaining why what they're saying is different than what we've transparently told the world. Like one example is this document.

这就像是安特罗的宣言书。我们向所有人阐明创业初衷、行业历史沿革、当今变革原因，以及真正改革国防体系的方法。任何关于安杜里尔的报道若偏离这份宣言，作者就必须解释为何其观点与我们的公开陈述不一致——这大大增加了他们的叙事难度。

This was like the manifesto for Antero. Like we told everyone why we started the history of the industry, why it's changed today, what it is that you need to do to actually fix defense. And anyone who writes a story about Andoril, if they if they say something other than what we tell them right here, they have to explain why they're saying that the thing that they believe is true about the company is not in our manifesto. Just makes it harder.

对，你用了‘战斗’这个词。我觉得我们确实保持着某种对抗性氛围，就像身处敌对环境中彼此交锋。

Yeah. You're you're using this word fight. And, you know, it's I think we kind of keep is like this combative environment. It's this hostile environment. We're fighting.

莉莉，你刚才在镜头外提到的问题很有意思。你谈到身处其中的感受，想深入探讨这点。那种感觉就像是...我不知道该怎么形容，就像是在打一场战争，对吧？

Lily, you asked a question sort of off camera that or raise a point that I thought was pretty interesting. You were talking about how it feels inside of it all, and you really wanted to kind of touch a bit on that. Like, it is this I don't know. What what is it what is it you're sort of at war. Right?

你正处于一种信息战的状态。嗯。要不要详细说说？

You're in a state of, like, information war. Yeah. Do you wanna kind of unpack that?

是的。我的意思是，当你身处其中，当你作为创始人经营公司时，你会实时看到所有人说的每句话。所有攻击都是针对个人的——要么直接针对你本人，要么针对公司。而公司就是你的化身，所以本质上还是针对你个人。

Yeah. I mean, when you're in it, when when you're the founder and it's your company, you are seeing everything that's being said by everybody all the time. All of the attacks are personal. Either they're directly personal or they're about the company. And that's personal because it's your company.

这就像身处浓重的战争迷雾中，压力巨大，感觉糟透了。很多时候，公关工作感觉完全是浪费时间。我认为传统公关就是浪费时间。

And so there's like intense fog of war. It's very stressful. It feels bad. A lot of times, comms feels like a total waste of time. And I think when people think of traditional comms, I think traditional comms is a waste of time.

传统公关就是在浪费时间。它毫无用处，已经过时了。但为了公司，你不得不硬着头皮去做那些反直觉的事。

It's a waste of time. It's useless. It's dead. It's totally obsolete. But the thing you have to do for the company, like you have to just suck it up and do it, is counterintuitive.

这种感觉很糟糕，就像在暴露自己。你对随之而来的所有负面情绪异常敏感，而这正是创业历程的一部分。这让我想起导师常说的话：人人都想上天堂，但没人想死。你想成为下一个丹德雷尔。

It feels bad. It feels like you're exposing yourself You're acutely sensitive to all of the negativity that comes with it that is just part of the journey. And I think of the phrase like a mentor of mine would say, Everybody wants to go to heaven. Nobody wants to die. You want to be the next Danderel.

你想成为下一个帕尔默、特雷、布莱恩或马特。但若不经历这些磨难，就无法达到他们的高度。你必须亲身经历这些，才能把你的故事推向世界，找到那些真正的信徒——那些能对你的故事感同身受并愿意加入你的人。这件事无法隔着帷幕完成，也无法假手他人，更不能委派出去。

You want to be the next Palmer, Trey, Brian, Matt. Like, that doesn't come without going through this. And so you have to put yourself through that in order to push your story out into the world and to find those true believers. You want to find the people who are going to feel your story in their spine and want to come join you. And there's just no way to do that through a curtain, through other people, and you can't delegate it.

再强调一点：离创始人越远，一切就越会被稀释——使命、激情、愿景、知识都是如此。帕尔默脑中的知识就像秘传绝学，其他人无法企及。特雷掌握其中一部分，马特也掌握一部分。

So just one thing to belabor this is the farther away you get from the founders, the more things get diluted. The mission, the passion, the vision, the knowledge. Palmer has knowledge in his head that is like secret knowledge that other people don't have. And Trey has a piece of that. Matt has a piece of that.

整合起来看，这就是安德鲁·埃尔夫的领导力。其他人根本无法创建这家公司，也无法运营它。当你向他人传达时，信息保真度就会有所损失，然后再次损失。传统做法是你向一个人传达，这个人再传达给另一个人，最后他们向记者推销。

Like put together, that's the leadership of Andrew Elf. A bunch of other people couldn't create this company, couldn't run this company. And when you convey that to another person, you lose a little bit in the fidelity, and then you lose a little bit. And the traditional way of doing it is you brief another person who briefs another person. They pitch a reporter.

记者可能会写出来，但他们会按照编辑为受众需求的方式改写。结果几乎面目全非，或者完全变成了问题。所以要保持信息尖锐、集中且有趣，就必须尽可能贴近创始人，这意味着创始人必须亲力亲为。有时这很糟糕，但确实别无他法。

The reporter maybe writes it, and then they write it in a way that their editor wants for their audience. And it's nearly unrecognizable, or it's turned into total problem. And so to keep that message spiky and concentrated and interesting, you have to just keep it as close to the founders as humanly possible, which means the founder has to do some of this themselves. And sometimes that sucks, but there's just literally no other way.

没错。其实这正是你现在提出的观点——几乎所有问题都回归到这一点：创始人才是核心。这是创始人以使命驱动的传播策略。

Right. Well, even I mean, this is this is the point you've brought this point up now. It's like almost every point comes back to this. This is it's the founders. It's the founders mission led sort of strategy for comms.

传播工作应由创始人主导。就像你在这段对话开头说的，崔负责传播，帕尔默负责传播。真正运作传播的是他们，而非专业传播人员。这部分其实贯穿了我们讨论的每个环节。

The comms is led by founders. You you like, that you even at the top of this conversation said, Trey does the comms. Like, Palmer does the comms. They are the people who are running comms, not the comms professionals. Part of that is just I mean, it's like every piece that we've talked about.

他们必须深度融入战略的每个环节。另一个关键是每位创始人都拥有独特技能组合。我想先听听崔对此的整体感受，然后再探讨如何根据创始人的优势来制定这类策略。

It's like they have to be sort of intricately woven into all of it, every piece of the strategy. Probably another part is every single one of these people has a unique toolset. Right? Like, how do you think about I do wanna get Trey's sense on on this, first of all, how it all felt. And then I wanna know how we identify the strengths of a founder sort of sort of to pursue a a strategy like this.

我认为他们都很独特。不过或许该先听听崔的看法

Think they're all sort of unique. But but maybe Trey first on

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我得说安德鲁确实有位公关主管，她叫香农·普赖尔。她工作能力非常出色。我认为与创始人合作时，组织负责人最核心的任务就是不断提醒他们战略的核心要点。就像我在《电力线》那篇文章后发的推文里说的，露露教会我最恼人、至今仍每天困扰我的道理是：你必须反复强调同一件事，一遍又一遍地重复。

Well, I I will say that Andrew does have a head of comms. Her name is Shannon Pryor. She's really, really good at what she does. And I think that the the primary thing that you want your, like, you know, organizational heads doing, working with the founders is reminding them of what's true about the strategy. And, you know, I think I said this in a tweet after the Power Wires article, the most irritating thing that I learned from Lulu that I'm still irritated by every day is that you have to say the thing and then you have to say it again and then you have to say it again.

你必须重复说。必须重复说。必须重复说。每次我听到自己这样说时，都觉得这实在太蠢了。

You have to say it again. Have to say it again. You have to say it again. And I'm hearing myself say it every time. And I think this is really stupid.

我在重复第100遍说同样的话。露露总会提醒我：没错，但这是他们第一次听到。所以你必须持续输出，直到他们相信这是他们自己的想法。看到这种效果确实很酷——

I'm saying the same thing I've said a 100 times. And Lulu would constantly remind me, yes, but it's the first time they heard it. And so you have to keep saying it until they believe that it was their idea. And it's cool to see this like

顺便说，我大概对特雷重复说过100次才见效。

By the way, I said that to Trey, like, probably a 100 times before I said it.

是啊。收到这个建议时觉得很烦人。但事实证明这确实有效。比如你走进五角大楼，会发现有人正逐字复述我们在安多里尔创造的句子，仿佛那是他们自己的观点。

Yeah. Received the message. Very annoying. But, like, it it turns out that, like, it it works. Like, you go into these environments, like, you walk into the Pentagon, and there are people saying literal sentences that we created at Andoril as if it was their own idea.

香农有项独特才能，她能明确说：这是我们的战略，这是我们要引导公众认知的方向，这些是我们要落实的具体工作单元来达成目标并保持信息一致。比如她会说：特雷，这次采访你必须反复强调这个观点，要在访谈里重复四遍。

And Shannon has a really unique ability internally to say, here is the strategy. Here's what we want people to think, and here are the individual units of work that we are going to do to execute on getting people to think those things and then keeping us on message. Like saying, okay, Trey, you're gonna go do this interview. You have to say this and you have to say it again and you have to say it again and you have to say it again. I want you to say it four times in the interview.

我认为确保有人能担当企业叙事者的角色至关重要。但这也需要我们个人主动承担责任。这正是评估创始人能力的关键——除了安德鲁之外，当我以创始人之子的身份接触企业时，我会考察对方是否具备讲好故事的能力。因为精彩叙事不仅能让媒体闭嘴，事实证明这项技能对人才招募同样重要。

And and I think having someone that's making sure that you're doing your role as the storyteller for the business is incredibly important. But it also is something that we have to own personally, like to take a responsibility for it. And I think this is where the evaluating founders piece comes in aside from Andrew, like when with my founder's son hat on, I'm meeting with companies. I I wanna see that the person can tell a compelling story because telling a compelling story isn't just about getting the media off your back. It turns out that same skill set is required to recruit talent.

同样的技能组合在融资时也必不可少。这种能力就像——这也是为什么当你观察那些由高智商学术型创始人领导的深科技公司时，它们往往难以成功，因为这些创始人并不擅长核心的叙事能力。他们只是科学家。我认为帕尔默这类人的重要性怎么强调都不为过，他不仅是个全才型天才，像疯狂科学家那样通晓万物到令人难以置信的程度，更是个杰出的故事讲述者。他能与掌管大型科技公司整个部门的工程师促膝长谈十五分钟，就说服对方加入安德鲁·罗尔的团队。

That same skill set is required to raise capital. That same skill set is like and this is why a lot of times when when you look at, deep tech companies with, highly intellectual academic founders, they don't work because the founder isn't actually good at this core storytelling piece. They're just scientists. And and I think that it cannot be understated how important someone like Palmer is because he's not only a total freak genius, like mad scientist that knows something about everything in a way that I never thought was even humanly possible, but he also is a brilliant storyteller. And he can sit down for fifteen minutes with an engineer that's like running an entire org inside of a major tech company and convince them to come join Andrew Roll.

这简直就像无敌的超能力。所以重点在于——如果正在收听播客的创始人自认不擅长讲故事，就必须找个优秀的叙事者合作。否则你就完蛋了，兄弟。这事肯定成不了。

And that is like it's like a unbeatable superpower. And so that is an important thing. If anyone that's listening to this podcast is a founder and they don't think they're a good storyteller, you need to find a good storyteller. Otherwise, you're screwed, man. It's not gonna work.

那么具体怎么操作呢？你是要专门找人代劳吗？这感觉有点违背策略的核心精神吧？我觉得你们两位都在强调创始人必须亲力亲为。显然香农负责战略部署，但你是她不可或缺的关键要素。

Well, how does that work exactly? I mean, do do you you you bring someone in to kind of do it for you? Or I that doesn't feel it feels sort of counter to the message of of this strategy. Like, I I think that a lot of what you guys are both saying is you need the founder. Obviously, Shannon's running the strategy, but you are the thing that she's like, she needs you.

所以你们是否会先识别各自优势？作为香农，在没有帕尔默的情况下该如何带领团队？

So is there a way that you identify maybe different strengths that you have, or how do you navigate, how do you, as a Shannon, navigate a team without a Palmer?

首先澄清，我不是建议你雇佣专业公关人员代劳，而是说需要有个创始人级别的合伙人。之所以强调'创始人级别'，就像乔尼·艾维虽非苹果创始人，但他卓越的叙事能力对苹果复兴至关重要。这件事可以由高层担当，但必须具有创始人思维。

Yeah. I I think well, first off, I'm not suggesting that you should hire, like, a professional accounts person to do it for you. I'm suggesting that you need a founder level person alongside you in the business. Now the reason I say founder like person is that, like, Joni Ive was not the founder of Apple, but he's a brilliant storyteller, and that was an important part of what made Apple's kind of, like, rebirth work. And so I think that you you could do this at a very senior level, but it has to be a a founder minded person.

露露对此肯定也有见解，她和香农长期密切合作。但我觉得香农把我们每个联合创始人都视为不同工具——比如她要盖房子，帕尔默可能是锤子，

And I think yeah. And Lulu will have opinions on this as well, and she and Shannon work really close closely together and have for a long time. But I think Shannon views each of us, each of the cofounders as a different tool. Like, you know, she's going to work to build the house. Maybe Palmer is a hammer.

我可能是铁锹，布莱恩可能是电钻。她知道如何运用这些工具完成房屋建造。我们各有所长，所以如果遇到适合帕尔默的机会而他恰好无法参与，你不能随便拿崔伊顶替。

Maybe I'm a shovel. Maybe Brian is a drill. And she knows how to implement those tools to complete the construction of the house. But we're all different. And so if there's like an opportunity that's a Palmer shaped opportunity in Palmer for whatever reason isn't available, you don't just swap in Trey.

你不能简单地换成布莱恩。有时候正确的做法是承认这个以帕尔默为名的机会已不再是机会，因为帕尔默无法参与。所以我认为，她已明白在合适的环境中这些工具确实很有用。但在错误的环境里，这就像一颗等待引爆的炸弹。

You don't just swap in Brian. Sometimes the right thing to do is to say this Palmer shaped opportunity is no longer an opportunity because Palmer is not available. So I I think, like, she's figured out in the right environment, these tools can be really useful. In the wrong environment, it's a it's a explosion waiting to happen.

我们的战略方向是承担更多风险，将恐惧、不确定性和怀疑（FUD）转化为动力，并坚持既定路线。我觉得风险和FUD转化是相关联的——不仅是创业者，任何网民都难免会对针对自己的恶意言论感到恐惧。但冒险的做法是找到方法将其转化为己用，或许能从中发现真实成分，并强化你未曾意识到的优势。我们Founders Fund的Hereticon就是典型案例。

We have I mean, the sort of the strategy moves on. We have, you know, taking more risk, turning FUD to fuel, and staying the course. I feel like risk and FUD to fuel are kind of they feel related to me in that I think people are naturally, not just founders, but anybody online is is naturally and understandably very scared of horrible things that are being said about them. But the risky thing to do is to find some way to own that and, and maybe find the true thing inside of it and lean into a strength where you didn't maybe previously understand that you had one. I an example of this for us at Founders Fund is Hereticon.

要知道，你会因为持有争议观点而不断遭受攻击，你说的那些话在狭隘群体眼中完全超出主流认知范围。我记得环顾四周时突然意识到：这太棒了，这就是我们。这正是我们的行事风格，也应该是我们的身份标识。当你把那些恶毒攻击转化为荣誉勋章时，对方最厉害的武器反而成了你的盾牌。

You know, you're getting attacked all the time for, you know, these controversial opinions and, saying these things that are well outside the Overton window according to a very narrow minded group of people only. And I remember of looking around and realizing, like, that's that is awesome. That is us. That is what we do, and that should be who we are. And how do you how do you attack someone at that point when you turn the vitriol into that the only their best weapon, you turn it into, like, a badge of honor.

这是不是...我想这大致就是你说的意思？大家怎么看待这个？你又是怎么思考这个过程的？

Is that maybe am I just like I think that's roughly what you're talking about there. Maybe how do people think about that? How do you think about that process?

文章里有句话说得很好：'世界会把你当作叛乱分子，而你要以叛乱者的方式取胜'。作为初创企业，你本就是在挑战现状——如果世界很完美，你根本就没有存在必要。比如若天下太平美国强盛，Androl还有什么存在价值？

Yeah. There's a line in the piece that says the world is gonna treat you like an insurgent and you win by acting like one. And it's related to that, where as a startup, you're threatening something. If the world were perfect, you wouldn't need to exist. Like, why would Androl need to exist if everything was going great and there was peace on Earth and The US was already strong, as strong as it could be.

你威胁到的既得利益者和机构必然会反击。你要善用这种对抗——要么被它伤害，要么利用它。这种对抗能量不会消失，关键是如何引导它为你所用。

The people that you are threatening and the institutions that you are threatening are going to try to fight you. And you should use that. You can either be injured by it or you can use it. Like, that energy is not going to go away. So orient it so that it's helping you.

具体操作上：首先从核心圈层开始，确保员工们做好心理准备，要让他们预期到会遭遇反对声浪。这些批评反而应该更激发他们的斗志。你要打造这样的文化——每次看到抹黑文章时，员工们都能一笑置之。

And tactically, the way you do that is, number one, start with the inner circles. Make sure that your employees are Okay. Make sure that your employees expect that there will be opposition and criticism of what you're doing. And that should actually fire them up more. Like, you want to build a culture where every time there's a hit piece on you, the employees laugh it off.

他们拿这事开玩笑，制作成梗图，或者说‘看吧，这招奏效了’。我们真的触动了他们。这就是你想要的团队文化——一群不被看好的人聚在一起，大家都明白自己正在做一件艰难的事，而且很多人都不希望你成功。

They joke about it. They meme about it. Or they say, like, it's working. We're really getting to them. That's the kind of culture you want to be, where it's like a band of underdogs and people understand that they're here to do something really hard that a lot of people don't want you to succeed at.

除此之外，你还要让它变成你所说的那样。原本的弱点可以转化为优势。就像查理·芒格说的‘逆向思维’——要么真正解决这个弱点，要么把它当作荣誉勋章，让它成为特色并坦然接受。最后，当你初次向外界介绍公司时，我认为应该预先表明：总会有人不希望这事成功，或不喜欢这件事，但我们依然坚信自己的方向。

And then beyond that, you also want to make it so that it's what you said. The thing that could be a weakness is now a strength. Invert, like the Charlie Munger invert. Take weakness, either if it's a true weakness, like fix it, Or wear it as a badge of honor, make it part of the thing and own it. And then lastly, as you're going out and talking to people and introducing your company for the first time, I think you want to set the expectation that there are people who don't want this to happen, or there are people who don't like this, and we believe this anyway.

就像你要先抛出反对观点，然后再介绍自己的优势。切忌一味自夸‘好、好、好’，否则对方会始终带着反对意见分心听讲，最后反而让反对观点成为最终印象。应该先把负面因素摆出来，再全力展开你想表达的内容。

Like you start with the counterargument, and then the rest of you introducing yourself is talking about why your thing is good. What you don't want is to talk about your thing is good, good, good. And then the whole time they have the counterargument in their mind that they're distracted by and then they drop the counterargument and then you end on the counterargument against you. Like get all the bad stuff out of the way and then go on offense with the thing you wanna talk about.

我觉得有个有趣的案例可以收尾——虽然之后我还有最后一点想法，但我们先说说最近的谷歌案例。莉莉你提到过，你说Gemini的灾难其实可以追溯到Maven项目，这种基因早就埋在公司里了。谷歌正面临巨大的公关危机时刻，他们急需让全世界相信这个工具代表着下一代人工智能。

I think one funny way to round this out, I have one last thought after this next piece, but we're we're getting there towards the end, is a case a recent Google case. Lily, you brought it up. You were saying, you know, the Gemini disaster is sort of it's like the legacy really to be begins with Maven. That DNA was in the company. You have a huge, I would say, comms crisis moment for Google where the tool that they really need the entire world to think is just the next generation of artificial intelligence.

他们需要战胜微软和其他老牌或新兴对手，但现在这个工具不仅被看作荒唐可笑，在我看来还涉嫌种族歧视。舆论两极分化——要么认为它彻底失败，要么认为它充满种族偏见。总之出现了严重问题。

You know, they need to win against Microsoft and every other incumbent or insurgent is just seen as hopelessly clownish and also, in my opinion, racist. But it you there's it spans the gamut there. Like, you either see it as it didn't work or you see it as it was racist. Like, it didn't. Something went horribly wrong.

你们的创始人...不对，创始人不负责公关了。新上任的CEO必须设法为此辩护。你最近做了详细分析，今天我在推特上看到你剖析桑达尔的回应。

Your founder not founder. Your founder's not running comms anymore. Your new CEO has to defend this somehow. You broke down recently. You just analyzed I saw you today on Twitter analyzing Sundar's response.

能否从公关角度为我们梳理下事件经过，以及当时应该采取哪些应对措施？

Could you kind of coach us through sort of what happened and what what should have happened from a comms perspective?

好的。我认为最大的问题在于这不是沟通问题，而是领导力缺失。这既关乎道德指南针的偏差，也涉及常识判断的失误。并非技术能力不足——事实上同期发布的1.5版本本应大放异彩，却被这些杂音完全掩盖了。

Okay. So I think the biggest problem is that this isn't a comms issue. There's the it's a leadership failure, And there's a failure somewhere between moral compass and common sense. I don't think it's for lack of technical excellence. In fact, 1.5, which was released that same week, seemed to be excellent and just got totally overshadowed by all of this noise.

我感到非常痛心。想象一下团队里那些研究人员，他们为此努力了六个月，结果别人的决策让整个舆论走向变得面目全非。这暴露出领导层对使命、产品目标和用户群体的根本性误判。就连后续声明也完全跑偏——整篇都在解释'因为冒犯了别人所以出错了'，本质上就是说'因为大家生气所以失败了'。

And I feel horrible. Imagine being a researcher on that team who works for six months on this and then have other people's decisions distort that news cycle beyond recognition. I think it's a leadership failure in what are we here to do and what is our product goal and who are we making this for. And even in the communication, was all about it went wrong because people were offended. Basically, it didn't work because people got mad.

问题根源恰恰在于他们试图讨好所有人。不是邮件写得不好——肯定有很多人加班加点认真撰写——而是当战略决策出错时，根本不可能靠一封邮件来挽回。通过公关手段挽救这种局面是不可能的。

And them optimizing for nobody being offended was the problem in the first place and was why it didn't work. And so I think it's not that the email was bad. I think a lot of hardworking people probably had to stay late and do their best on this. But it's that there's no way to write an email that fixes a situation where the wrong business decisions are being made. So I don't think that there's a way to save that through communications.

我为谷歌说句话。那封邮件明显是委员会产物，经过律师层层把关，最后由职业CEO签字。像Palmer Luckey这种创始人绝不会发这种邮件——他手指根本按不下发送键。

I do For Google. Can I say one thing, though? That email was clearly written by a committee, embedded through lawyers, and finally signed off by a professional CEO. Like, a Palmer Luckey would never have sent that email. His hand physically wouldn't press the send button on an email like that.

创始人领导的公司不会这样说话。正常人也不会这样说话。只有官僚体系膨胀到需要委员会为职业CEO代笔时，才会诞生这种邮件。

A founder led company doesn't talk that way. People don't talk that way. You have to get to a size of bureaucracy where it's like a committee writing for professional CEO to be able to release an email like that.

这简直是政府做派。其实最佳回应应该是两句话的邮件：'我们搞砸了，这是道德判断的彻底失误。我们会改进，后续将公布更多措施。'

Is this is the government. This is the government point is that it's like it's the right response was probably like a two sentence email that was like, we screwed up. This was a this was a a total failure of moral judgment on our part. We're gonna do better. More to come.

桑达尔，如果他们非要回应的话，这可能是最佳方案。但当你选择沉默时，所有人都会争相用最冗长的方式表达空话。简短的废话是不可能的——你必须让所有利益群体都在废话中找到存在感。

Sundar. That was the that was probably the best possible thing if they needed to do it at all. But when you say nothing, everyone competes to say as much as possible without saying nothing. It's not possible to write a very short and concise nothing. You have to include all constituencies in your nothingness.

是啊。那封邮件就是那样。就像一群人围坐在桌边，比赛谁能说出最多毫无意义的句子。

Yeah. And that email was just that. It was like a bunch of people sitting around a table competing for who could say the most sentences that had no meaning whatsoever.

他们甚至无法明确指出哪里出了问题。你甚至无法具体说明问题是什么，因为没人对问题所在达成共识。这又回到了我同意的观点，这很大程度上是领导力问题或看似领导力问题，就像你之前说的，露露？核心圈子优先。内部沟通根本没有进行。

They open without even they could not even say what went wrong. You could not even say specifically, like, what the problem was because nobody agrees on what the problem was. And, that kind of goes back to, like, that that is very much I agree that it's a leadership problem or appears to be a leadership problem, and that would be, like, sort of, what was your point, Lulu? It was inner circle comes first. Like, the messaging is not happening internally.

比如，谁在运营谷歌？谷歌的目的是什么？谷歌的战略是什么？如果这些都不是自上而下明确的，当出现问题时，你怎么能指望任何人正确传达信息？那里根本没有正确答案。

Like, who is running Google? What is the purpose of Google? What is the strategy of Google? And if you don't have all of those things coming from the top, then when something breaks down, how could you possibly expect anybody to message correctly? Nobody there is there is no correct answer.

这完全是一场灾难，而且始于——问题就出在内部。

It's a total disaster, and it started it started in that the call is coming from inside the house.

那封拙劣的邮件就来自内部。我能强调一点吗？这不仅糟糕的公关。我认为谷歌很可能拥有一支极其优秀的公关团队。

I The the flunky email is coming from inside the house. Can I emphasize one thing just on that? Yeah. Is not I just want to double down on this is not just bad comms. I think Google probably has a wildly talented comms team.

我认识谷歌前公关主管，他非常聪明能干。但如果你把这种情况交给他们，让他们用语言解决，是行不通的。我还想强调特蕾丝提到的香农如何运用这些工具。她是业内最顶尖的人才之一，非常非常出色。

I'm friends with a former head of comms at Google who is a very smart and savvy person. But if you hand them this situation and say fix it with words, it doesn't work. But the other thing I want to emphasize, too, to Trace's point about how Shannon uses these tools. And she is one of the best in the business. Like, very, very good.

我们现在搞得香农听到这个会很难堪。但创始人直接发声并不意味着不需要公关支持、所有事都亲力亲为或在推特上乱发帖。有些人听到'直接发声'就以为要解雇公关团队多发推文。不，你应该找到你能找到的最佳公关主管，找到属于你的香农。

We've turned it into embarrassing Shannon now when she hears this. But going direct for a founder does not mean don't have comm support and do everything yourself and go pop off on Twitter. I think some people hear going direct and they're like, I need to fire my comms team and tweet more. Like, no, you should find the best head of comms that you can. You should find your own Shannon.

应该说，许多公司都拥有出色的公关负责人，他们为公司做出了卓越贡献，以至于创始人会说没有这个人就办不成事。他们与媒体合作，参与主流媒体报道。我并不是说不要公关人员或永远不与媒体合作，而是要有所选择。

Should like, there are many companies with outstanding heads of comms that are doing so much amazing work for them that the founders would say, like, could never do this without this person. And they work with the media. And they participate with mainstream media articles. I'm not saying don't have comms people or never work with the media. It's be selective.

要谨慎选择合作的媒体、时机以及期望达成的目标。更要慎重选择那些你托付故事的人，这是一项非常神圣的责任。最后，这并不意味着你可以置身事外。即使你找到了最优秀的公关人员，能建立最好的媒体关系，你依然不能免责。最终还是要靠你自己。

Be selective about which media you work with and when and what you're trying to get out of it. And be selective about which people you entrust with your story, which is a very sacred responsibility. And then lastly, that doesn't take you out of the loop. Like even if you find the very, very best coms person who can establish the very best press relationships, you're not off the hook. Like, it still comes down to you.

最后一点，你在谈话开头简要提到过。你说帕尔默总是说，即使一切都很顺利，战略也不会改变。我记得帕尔默常说，即使明天一切都变了，文化明天就变了，我们依然保持不变。这是真的吗？如果文化发生根本性变化，我在想，这次谈话的主题是如何应对敌意。大概隐含的假设是，媒体中存在很多敌对因素。

Last one, and it was a point that you briefly touched on at the very top of the conversation. You said Palmer always says, you know, the strategy doesn't change even if it's even if everything's friendly to I think it was Palmer always says, you know, if everything changes tomorrow, the culture changes tomorrow, we're the same. Is that true? Like, if the culture radically changes, I I'm wondering, I guess, this entire conversation is geared towards, you know, how to navigate hostility. I think that's sort of the the rough assumption is that, like, the the there's, like, a lot of hostile elements in the press.

社交媒体尤其是一个充满敌意的环境。你现在就在这样的环境中建设。这份指南对应对这种情况很有帮助。但是，什么时候会出现和平时期的过渡呢？我是说，你会改变一切吗？

Social media is uniquely a hostile environment. You're building now inside of this environment. This is a great guide for for navigating that. But, like, at what point, you know, is there a peacetime transition? I mean, do you change it all?

你会完全改变策略吗？当一切顺利时，你会不会稍微放松警惕，或者怎样？我是说，你如何看待和平时期？

Do you change your strategy at all? Things are good. Like, do you do you kind of ease the the chip off your shoulder maybe a little bit or what? I mean, how do you how do you think about peacetime?

不，你不能放松。现实是，唯一真正的和平时期就是公司失败、无人关注的时候。只要公司还在成功，总会有人想把你拉下马。我们在埃隆身上就看到了这一点。

No. There there is you cannot ease off. The real the reality is is, like, the only version of peacetime is the company is failing and no one cares about you anymore. As long as the company is succeeding, someone is always going to be swinging for your head. And I think we've seen this with with Elon.

说实话，埃隆创建了世界上唯一有影响力的电动汽车公司。他却遭到环保左派的攻击。他们恨他仅仅因为他成功了，他们希望所有人都只是适度成功。但世界不是这样运转的。只要安德罗尔在做有益的工作，推动国家安全生态系统的发展，就会有人来找我们麻烦。

It's like Elon has built the world's only relevant e electron like, electric car company, if we're being honest. And he gets attacked by the environmentalist left. And they just hate him because he's successful and they just want everyone to be only moderately successful. And I don't think that's how the world moves. And I think as long as Anderol is doing good work and we're moving the needle for our national security ecosystem, people are gonna be coming after us.

所以，不，你绝不能松懈。

And so, no, you never let off the gas.

你会同意吗？确实如此。我确实同意。但有本书叫《曾经是雄鹰》。我想帕特里克·保利斯坦把它列入了阅读清单。许多军事领袖的书单上都有这本书。

Will you concurrence? Way. I I do concur. But there's a book called Once an Eagle. I think Patrick Paulistyn has it on his reading A lot of military leaders have it on their reading list.

这是詹姆斯·德布里德斯上将推荐给我的。这本书很厚重。扉页上刻着一句话：'被误认为是和平年代的年份，要么是战前年，要么是战后年。'我认为企业也是如此。如果你是一家初创公司，就永远没有和平时期。

It was recommended to me by Admiral James Debrides. And it's tome. Very first page of it has an inscription that says, A year that is believed to be a peace year is either a pre war year or a post war year. And I think that's the case with companies. If you're a startup, there's never peace time.

理论上讲，如果真有和平时期，或许你会采取不同做法。但实际上，我从未见过哪家初创企业有过能被称作和平年份的时期。另外我想区分的是：你可以在不改变战略的情况下调整战术。所以你的原则永远不该改变，核心信息也永远不该改变。

Like in theory, if there were peace time, maybe you would do something differently. But in practice, I've literally never seen a startup with a single year that could be called a peacetime year. And then the other thing I'll just draw a distinction between is you can change your tactics without changing your strategy. So your principles should never change. Your core message should never change.

你存在的使命不该改变。但传达方式完全可以调整。你可能增加或减少媒体曝光，多刷或少刷推特。招聘时可能转向领英。有些公司我不喜欢抖音，但有些创始人我会直接说：'你们必须做抖音，因为你们的业务特性。'

What you exist to do shouldn't change. But the way you communicate that can definitely change. You might go to press more or less, use Twitter more or less. You might go LinkedIn if you're hiring. You might there's companies where I don't like TikTok, but there's companies where I've told the founder, you gotta be on TikTok because of this thing that you're doing.

这才是你们赚钱的途径。所以我认为战术可以自由调整，但战略——你

That's how you're gonna make money. And so the tactics, I think, should change freely, but the strategy, you

崔、露露，这次交流太真实了。感谢你们的参与，周五节目再见。

Trey, Lulu, it has been absolutely real. Thank you guys for joining me, and catch us here on Friday later.

谢谢。再见。

Thank you. Bye.