查理·柯克遇刺事件后续

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立即访问shopify.com/voxbusiness，开始使用Shopify进行销售。Shopify.com/voxbusiness。

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Adobe Acrobat Studio，全新登场。向我展示PDF的所有潜能。轻松快捷地完成您的工作。PDF Spaces就是您所需的一切。借助AI助手的核心洞察，瞬间完成数小时的研究工作。

Adobe Acrobat Studio, so brand new. Show me all the things PDFs can do. Do your work with ease and speed. PDF Spaces is all you need. Do hours of research in an instant with key insights from an AI assistant.

一键挑选模板。现在您的演示文稿看起来超级专业。搞定那笔交易？没错，您赢了。

Pick a template with a click. Now your prezo looks super slick. Close that deal? Yeah. You won.

做那事。正在做。做过了。完成了。现在您也能做到。

Do that. Doing that. Did that. Done. Now you can do that.

用Acrobat来实现。现在您也能做到。用全新的Acrobat来实现。是时候用全新的Adobe Acrobat Studio成就您的最佳工作了。大家好。

Do that with Acrobat. Now you can do that. Do that with the all new Acrobat. It's time to do your best work with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio. Hi, everyone.

这里是来自《纽约杂志》和VOXX媒体播客网络的《Pivot》节目。我是卡拉·斯威舍。

This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the VOXX Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

我是斯科特·加洛韦。

And I'm Scott Galloway.

所以今天，我们首先要说的是昨天在犹他州发生的事情是一场可怕而悲惨的悲剧。我认为现在有很多愤怒、很多指责，很多非常丑陋的事情正在发生。但即使你不同意某人的观点，也应该能够发言——正如你可能想象的那样，斯科特和我多次不同意查理·柯克的观点。你可以畅所欲言，但发生这样的事情可能是像美国这样一个国家可能发生的最令人发指的事情，在我们这里，本应能够说出最糟糕的话并继续辩论。斯科特？

So today, we should start very much saying what happened yesterday in Utah was a terrible and tragic situation. I think there's been a lot of anger, a lot of accusations, a lot of really ugly stuff going on. But being able to speak, even if you disagree with someone, and as you might imagine, Scott and I have disagreed with Charlie Kirk many times. You can say what you want, but having this happen is probably the most heinous thing that could occur in a country like The United States where we are supposed to be able to say the most horrible things and continue to debate. Scott?

是的。听着，我我我我一直在思考这件事，就像大多数人在过去大约十八个小时里一样。听着，他，我的意思是，归根结底，或者说这是结束的开始，是这样的：一位31岁的两个孩子的父亲被无谓地谋杀了。

Yeah. Look. I I I I've been thinking about this a lot as most people have over the last, whatever, eighteen hours. Look, he I mean, this the end of the day or at the beginning at the beginning of the end is the following. A 31 year old father of two was needlessly murdered.

对吧？那那那是一场悲剧，句号。本不该发生。我们应该思考具体的行动，以确保它它它发生的更少。查理·柯克，在我看来——我们也说过这个，老实说，我我不会代表你发言。

Alright? That that that is a tragedy, full stop. Should not happen. And we should be thinking about tangible actions to make sure it it it happens less. Charlie Kirk, in my view, and we said this, and just to be honest, in my you know, I I won't speak for you.

在我看来，说了很多分裂的、充满仇恨的话。

In my view, said a lot of divisive, hateful things.

嗯。绝对是的。

Mhmm. Absolutely.

与此同时，他的形式非常有力且富有成效。那就是很多极左和极右的人会进入他们在某个工作室麦克风后的回声室，只倾听或回应支持他们的人。而他走进校园，进行这些开放麦克风的活动，你知道，挑战我、辩论我，或者证明我是错的。

At the same time, his format was really powerful and productive. And that is a lot of people on the far left and the far right go into their echo chambers in a studio somewhere behind a mic and only listen to or respond to people who are supporting them. He went on campus, and he would have these open mic, you know, challenge me or debate me or prove me I'm wrong.

“证明我是错的”，是

Prove me I'm wrong, was

很酷。是的，证明我错了。我认为这非常有成效且勇敢，因为他承受了很多让他看起来很糟糕的TikTok和视频。很多时候，他会提出很好的观点，表明很多年轻人对他们的进步观点缺乏批判性思考。而很多时候，年轻人会站出来，说出非常聪明的话，通过批判性思维进行反驳，证明他是错的。

cool. Yeah, prove me wrong. And I thought that was really productive and courageous because he was subject to a lot of TikToks and videos that made him look bad. And a lot of times he would make great points and show that a lot of young people weren't being critical thinkers about their progressive views. And a lot of times young people would show up and say very intelligent things that counteracted in critical thinking and showed that he was wrong.

那是我们应该在校园里进行的富有成效的对话。校园本应是——这是这件非常令人沮丧的事情中最令人沮丧的一点——大学校园在物理上本应是一个极其安全的地方，但在智力上却应是一个危险的地方。而不幸的是，这降低了这两方面。人们，我我不知道你怎么想。我正在重新考虑我承诺的一些校园露面活动。

That is a productive dialogue we should have on campus. Campuses are supposed to be, and this is one of the most upsetting things about a very upsetting thing, university campuses are supposed to be an incredibly safe place physically, but a dangerous place intellectually. And that is and unfortunately, this reduces both. People I I don't know about you. I'm rethinking some of the campus appearances I've committed to.

它们本应是物理上的安全空间，不仅对演讲者，对学生也是如此。而我甚至不想深入讨论一些高中方面的事情，但你必须认识到，他在很年轻的时候就是一位伟大的商人，是两个孩子的父亲。而他的对话和他的形式，我认为是一种富有成效、勇敢的对话。对吧？这是一场悲剧。

They are supposed to be physically safe spaces, not only for the speakers, but for the students. And and I won't even get into, you know, some of the high school stuff, but you have to appreciate he was a great businessman at a very young age, a father of two. And his dialogue and his format, I felt was a productive, brave dialogue. Right? This a tragedy.

让我谈谈一些次生影响，我想听听你的看法。大学因为校园暴力而变成这样，实在令人失望。这应该是世界上最安全的言论场所。这真的非常、非常令人沮丧。我发现，作为进步派，我感到一种压力要去理解对方。

Let me get to some of the second order effects, and I want to get your thoughts. It's just so disappointing that universities are becoming a place because of violence in schools. This should be the safest places in the world for discourse. That's just super, super upsetting. What I find, and this is where as progressives, I feel a pressure to feel the other side.

我认为极右翼对此的反应完全是胡扯。每个极左翼人士都说过类似的话——不管是克林顿国务卿还是副总统。基本上每个人都说，我们谴责这种暴力。这绝不是解决之道。我们的心与祈祷与查理及其家人同在。

I think the reaction from the far right on this is so fucking bullshit. Every person on the far left has said something along I don't care if it's secretary Clinton, vice president. Everyone has said basically, we condemn this violence. Our this is never the solution. Our hearts and prayers go out to Charlie and his family.

极右翼有一半时间都在重复非常相似的论调。我们的思念与祈祷与查理及其家人同在，而这是激进左翼的错。政治暴力只会滋生更多政治暴力。而特朗普，我们的统帅、我们的分裂总司令，立即站出来强调针对每个共和党人的政治暴力，却忘了提及针对众议院议长佩洛西丈夫的暴力，以及在明尼苏达州家中被谋杀的法律制定者。你知道，他‘不小心’略过所有民主党人，说政治暴力必须停止，然后继续煽动政治暴力。

The far right has had a very similar narrative for half of it. Our thoughts and prayers go out to Charlie and his family, and this is the fault of the radical left. That is political violence only begets political violence. And Trump, our commander, our divider in chief, immediately goes on, highlights political violence against every Republican forgetting to mention the violence against speaker Amrito Pelosi's husband, against the lawmakers who were murdered in their home in Minnesota. You know, accidentally slips past every Democrat and says political violence has to stop and then goes on to foment political violence.

是的。我同意。我当时有点像是，什么？我就想，好吧。很好。

Yes. I would agree. I was sort of like, what? I was like, okay. Good.

是的。不要政治暴力。然后立刻转向激进左翼的事情令人震惊，尤其是因为还没人知道。他们还没抓到人。他们不知道原因。

Yes. No political violence. And then shifting into the radical left thing immediately was shocking, especially because there's nobody knows. They haven't caught this. They don't know why.

显然是个男人。真令人震惊。但是，你知道，他们现在拿到了枪。他们有行凶者的视频。他们认为是个大学年龄的学生。

It's a guy apparently. What a shock. But but it's you know, they have they've got the gun now. They've had videos of the person who did it. They believe it's a college age student.

我不知道他们怎么知道的，但他们肯定有某种视频。所以问题是，为什么你要在没有任何证据的情况下立即说那样的话？现在让我给他一个小小的开脱。他们关系很亲近，你可能会对这场极其暴力的死亡感到非常、非常愤怒和难过。不幸的是，这件事在互联网上广泛传播。非常特别的是，这真的是一次处决，发生的事情就是这样。每个人都看到了发生了什么。

I don't know how they know that, but they must have videos of some sort. So the question is, why would you immediately, without any proof, say something like that at the worst now I let me give him one tiny little out. They were very close, and you could be very, very angry and very upset about this incredibly violent death. And unfortunately, it was all over the internet Extraordinarily, it was it was an execution, really, was what happened here. And and everyone saw what happened.

这是谋杀。而他转向那种说法，我唯一能替他辩解的是，好吧，他是朋友，但你还是美国总统。对吧？这就是我一直在想的，到底是什么让你立刻开始谈论复仇？就像，我不知道。

It was murder. And for him to shift to that, the only thing I'd give him is, okay, he was a friend, but this, you're also the president of The United States. Right? That was what I kept thinking is like, what in the world would possess you to immediately start with the vengeance? Like, I don't know.

我自己也有点震惊。我通常对唐纳德·特朗普从不感到震惊，但这次有点让我震惊。

I was sort of shocked myself. And I'm usually never shocked by Donald Trump, but this one was sort of shocking to me.

如果你现在上任何这些平台，看到那些获得七万、八万点赞的内容，都是有人说‘就这样了。这是对他妈激进左翼的战争。’有些人可以理解地感到愤怒和难过，然后就像，好吧。我们知道激进左翼对此负责吗？你忘了民主党人遭遇过什么吗？

If you go online right now onto any of these platforms and you see the stuff that's getting seventy, eighty thousand likes, it's someone saying, that's it. It's war on the fucking radical left. Someone who is understandably outraged and upset and like, well, okay. Do we know the radical left was responsible for this? Are you forgetting what's happened to Democrats?

而极左翼想要感受到是的。他们确实如此。极左翼想要表达同理心并呼吁降温。我理解。极左

And the far left wants to feel Yes. They are. The far left wants to feel empathy and a call for taking the temperature down. I get it. The far

右翼并非所有人。我们要说清楚。网上有些愚蠢的人在说关于他的蠢话。我是说，关于他的死亡。不是关于他本人。

right Not everybody. Let's be clear. There's some stupid people saying stupid things online about him. I mean, about his death. Not about him.

关于他的

About his

死亡。我还没看到那些言论。

death. I haven't seen that.

没有。通常都是匿名的。就像，他们在 cherry picking（ cherry 未说完）右翼在 cherry picking 一些愚蠢的

No. It's just usually, like, anonymous. Like, they're cherry the right is cherry picking some dumb stupid

混蛋说的话。我还没看到任何有信誉的左翼知名人士说过除了'我们与家人同悲，暴力不是解决之道，这必须停止'之外的话。然后你却看到非常著名的、非常著名的右翼主持人在说，就是这样。

asshole who's saying. I haven't seen any famous person from the left who has any credibility saying anything but our hearts go out to the family. Violence is not the answer. This needs to stop. And then you have very famous, very famous right wing hosts saying, this is it.

这就是战争，是激进左翼干的。这他妈的。我把这归咎于激进左翼，总统也这么说过。而这只会滋生、只会制造更多暴力。问题是，解决方案如下。

This is war and it's the radical left. It's the fuck. I laid this at the feet of the radical left and the president has said this. And that just begets, that just creates more violence. And the problem is, the solution is the following.

我们有两位非常著名的人，人们应该正视自己的悲痛。我在这个播客里经常感到难过和情绪化。我喜欢人们展现脆弱的一面，但我昨天听到两位非常著名的右翼评论员在节目中为此哭泣。好吧。我理解。

We have two very famous and people should own their grief. I I get upset a lot and emotional on this podcast. I like it when people are vulnerable, but I heard two very famous right wing pundits yesterday crying over this on air. Fine. I get it.

你可能个人认识他。你有权拥有自己的悲痛和情绪。但我们似乎对每天被枪击的人们没有表达出同样的悲痛。我们似乎没有那么关心

You may have known him personally. You have the right to your own grief and emotions. We don't seem to express the same grief for the people every day that are shot. We didn't seem to be as concerned

昨天在科罗拉多州的学生们。

students with in Colorado yesterday.

科罗拉多的学生们，或者那些在祈祷时被枪击谋杀的学生们。如果我们左派和右派是认真的，我的意思是，如果他们真的认真，归根结底就是这一点。我住在英国。明年，整个英国大约会有三十起枪支死亡事件。而在美国，接下来六个小时内就会有三十起枪支死亡。

Students in Colorado or or the student the students who were shot and murdered while praying. And if we're if the left and the right are serious about this, I mean, if they're serious, it all comes down to this. I live in The UK. In the next year, in all of The UK, there will be approximately thirty gun deaths. In The United States, in the next six hours, there will be thirty gun deaths.

我们不知道枪手的动机。我们不知道他是谁。我敢说'他'，因为说实话，总是男性。我们还知道的是

We don't know we don't know the motivation of the shooter. We don't know who he he is. I'm comfortable saying he because let's be honest, it's always a he. What we also know is

政府是这么说的，让你知道一下。他们说是个男人。

The government is saying that, just so you know. They're saying it's a man.

我们还知道这个人使用了一把大威力步枪，而且该死的枪支实在太多了。查理·柯克曾经说过，某些权利需要付出代价。他说，看吧，总会有一定数量的死亡。理论上我接受这个说法。对于犯罪率上升但保护了某些权利，或者某些搜查和扣押权，我能接受。

We we also know that this person used a high powered rifle, and there's too many goddamn guns. And Charlie Kirk used to say, you have to pay a price for certain rights. And he said, look, there'll be a certain number of deaths. I buy that in theory. I'm comfortable with an increase in prevalence in crime with protection or or certain search and seizure rights.

如果有人不能随便出现在我家门口说'我们怀疑你'。所以我理解这个概念，但这关乎规模问题。在某个时刻，对枪支权利的绝对忠诚是否开始带来难以承受的代价？这就是一个例子，而且我没听到任何人说'那不是真的'。我听到AOC说过这个。

If someone can't show up at my home and just say, we suspect you. So I get the concept, but it's an it's an issue of scale. At some point, does a a total fidelity to gun rights begin to come at such an unbearable cost? And this is an example of this, and I don't hear anyone saying well, that's not true. I heard AOC say this.

如果我们认真对待这件事，我们可以讨论降低激烈言辞。祝你好运吧。你知道，杰西·沃特斯昨天就已经出来说这是战争了。对吧？好吧。

If we're serious about this, we can talk about we can talk about dialing down the rhetoric. Good luck with that. You know, Jesse Waters was already out yesterday saying this is war. Right? Okay.

激烈言辞，试图让人们降低激烈言辞，而社交媒体通过算法激怒人们赚取数千亿美元，祝你好运吧。如果我们认真，就必须减少。我们必须制定合理的枪支管制法律。

The rhetoric, good luck with trying to get people to dial down the rhetoric and with social media that makes hundreds of billions of dollars by enraging people with their algorithms. If we're serious, we have to reduce. We have to have sensible gun control laws.

是的，100%同意。更新一下情况，截至录制时（可能会变化），对枪手的追捕仍在进行中，政府确认是一名男子，周三在犹他谷大学枪杀了31岁的保守派活动家查理·柯克。如我所说，官员们表示他们已找到枪，认为是在附近树林中找到的一把大威力栓动步枪。如我们所说，调查人员还有嫌疑人的视频。

Yep. A 100%. So just to be update people as it's as of this recording, and that could change, the manhunt is still underway for the person, who the government is identifying as a man who shot and killed 31 year old conservative activist Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University on Wednesday. Officials, as I said, said they've recovered the gun and believe was used in the shooting in the woods nearby, a high powered bolt action rifle. Investors also have video, as we said, of the suspect.

他们正尝试使用面部识别来确认此人身份。FBI一开始非常笨拙。他们解雇了盐湖城办公室的负责人，因为她显然是一名巴基斯坦女性。他们非常混乱，说拘留了嫌疑人，但实际上没有。

They're trying to use facial recognition to identify the person. The FBI was pretty cloddish at the start. They had fired the head of the Salt Lake City office because she was a Pakistani woman, apparently. And they were very claudish. They said there were suspects in custody when there weren't.

卡什·帕特尔在这里似乎并不十分精明，但我们会看到。这些事情非常混乱。与此同时，政府本不应让人感到混乱。至于反应，如你所说，许多人谴责了暴力，并将他的言论与他的死亡联系起来。他不应为自己的死亡负责。

Kash Patel's not really exactly seeming very sharp here, but we'll see. These things are very chaotic. At the same time, the government is not supposed to feel chaotic. In terms of reactions, as you said, a lot of people did denounce the violence and linking his words to his death. He is not to blame for his death.

让我们说清楚。我很抱歉，各位。我知道你们对他的一些言论感到愤怒，但请只对那些言论生气。基本上就到此为止。尽管如我们所说，特朗普总统正在指责激进言论和其他呼吁战争的声音，但最先出现的言论之一就是埃隆·马斯克说左派本质上是谋杀性的。

Let's be clear. I'm sorry, people. I know you were angry at some things he said, but just then be angry at things he said. That's pretty much where it stops. Although president Trump, as we said, is blaming the radicalist rhetoric and others calling for war, One of the first things out of the gate was Elon Musk saying the left is murderous, essentially.

如果他们不让我们安宁，那我们的选择就是战斗或死亡。那可能是最糟糕的言论之一。史蒂夫·班农和杰西·沃特斯也一样。我们并没有与他们开战，而且这对高调人物来说确实很不负责任。犹他州共和党州长斯宾塞·考克斯采取了不同的做法。

If they won't leave us in peace, then our choice is to fight or die. That was possibly one of the worst. Steve Bannon and Jesse Waters, same thing. We're not at war with them and nor this is this is really irresponsible for high profile people. Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox took a different approach.

这段话有点长，但我认为很值得一听。所以让我们听听他怎么说。

Now it's a little long, but I think it's well worth listening to. So let's listen to what he said.

我们的国家已经破碎。最近在明尼苏达州发生了政治暗杀事件。宾夕法尼亚州州长遭遇了暗杀未遂。一位总统候选人、美国前总统，也是现任美国总统也遭遇了暗杀未遂。我说什么都无法让这个国家团结起来。

Our nation is broken. We've had political assassinations recently in Minnesota. We had an attempted assassination on the governor of Pennsylvania. And we had an attempted assassination on a presidential candidate and former president of The United States and now current president of The United States. Nothing I say can unite us as a country.

我现在说什么都无法修复已经破碎的东西。我说什么都无法让查理·柯克回来。我们的心都碎了。我们与他的妻子、孩子、家人和朋友一同哀悼。我们作为一个国家一同哀悼。

Nothing I can say right now can fix what is broken. Nothing I can say can bring back Charlie Kirk. Our hearts are broken. We mourn with his wife, his children, his family, his friends. We mourn as a nation.

如果任何听到我声音的人对这起枪击事件的消息哪怕有一丝庆祝，我恳请你照照镜子，看看能否在其中找到一丝善良的天使。我不在乎他的政治立场是什么。我在乎的是他是一名美国人。

If anyone in the sound of my voice celebrated even a little bit at the news of this shooting, I would beg you to look in the mirror and to see if you can find a better angel in there somewhere. I don't care what his politics are. I care that he was an American.

我觉得那段话非常雄辩，实际上做得非常完美。在这种时候，政治演讲或政治领袖的讲话非常重要，我认为这正是正确的情感表达。他承认了愤怒，也承认了有人不同意查理·柯克某些言论的困难。但他也指出我们必须超越这一点，并提到他是一位有孩子的父亲，同时谈到了对民主党人的暗杀，试图平等看待它们。我觉得这太棒了。

I thought that was so eloquent and actually really just perfectly done. Political speeches are so important at times like this or or from from leaders, political leaders, and I thought this was just exactly the right sentiment. He acknowledging the anger, and he was acknowledging the difficulties of someone disagreeing with Charlie Kirk on some of the things he said. But he also was pointing out we have to get beyond this, and noted he was a father with children, and at the same time talking about assassinations of Democrats, essentially, and trying to equalize them. I thought it was fantastic.

我不知道该说什么，我希望它能得到更多关注。而随后特朗普的讲话，我觉得完全不是领导力的表现，恰恰相反。

I don't know what and I wish it had gotten more attention. And then it was followed by Trump, which was so non was the opposite of leadership, I thought.

是的。他的讲话给人一种总统演讲的感觉，对吧？我认为他做到了你对一位领袖的期望。所以，值得称赞。

Yeah. He gave what what felt like a presidential speech. Right? Acknowledging that was, I think he did exactly what you would expect from a leader. So, you know, kudos to him.

而且，再次，作为一个每天都在校园里的人，真正让我印象深刻的是，保守派声音在校园里被压制，某些学生受到恐吓，或者他们的学习受到阻碍——大学的意义就在于我们把它建在市中心之外是有原因的，这样人们可以说出 provocative、令人不安的话。他们被允许这样做。而查理·柯克，我认为，在我看来，你可以对他说的最积极的事情之一就是他支持这一点。而且我觉得他在校园里所做的事情，不管你对他的言论怎么看，实际上是有积极意义的。我喜欢那些视频。

And, again, the thing that really struck me as someone who's on campus every day, between people being, you know, conservative voices being shouted down on campus between intimidating certain students or getting in the way of their learning between this is the whole point of a university is we put it outside the city center for a reason such that people could say provocative, upsetting things. And they were they were they were allowed to do that. And Charlie Kirk, I think the you know, in my view, one of the most positive things you could say about him was he was he was endorsing that. And and I thought what he was doing on campus, regardless of what you think of the rhetoric, was actually a positive. I liked those videos.

是的。很多人，我认为那些对他愤怒的人是愤怒于我们在校园里没有足够强大的声音来表达和呈现不同的观点。他只是非常擅长他所做的事情。但澳大利亚有家媒体，我想是家报纸杂志，总结得很好，说在美国，我们在文化层面确实很挣扎，这确实玷污了我们惊人的成就。这就是一个例子，这些本应是批判性思维和自由言论的地方，却发生了这样的事情。

Yeah. A lot of people a lot of people felt, I think the people who are angry at him were angry that we didn't have as strong a voices going on campus in saying and presenting a different viewpoint. He was just very good at what he did. But it there is something the Australian, I think it's a newspaper magazine, kind of summarized it, said that there is a real Culturally, we are really struggling in The US, and it really stains our amazing accomplishments. And this is an example of that, that these places that are supposed to be places of critical thought and free speech, something like this that happens.

而且还有一个事实是，我们已经习以为常了，有太多...我绝不是想说这件事没那么恶劣或为这里发生的事开脱。当你是一个公众人物，当你决定从政，比如有人说查理·柯克，当你决定竞选总统，底线是过去五十年里，每三位总统中就有一位遭到枪击。你知道存在某些风险。但如果你去上学，你没得选择。你并没有主动进入一个高风险的环境。

And also just the fact that we have normalized, there are so many, I'm not in any way saying this is less heinous or excusing what happened here. When you're a public figure and you are a pol you decide to go into politics, someone say Charlie Kirk, when you decide to run for president, the bottom line is one out of three presidents the last fifty years have been shot at. You know there are certain risks. If you're going to school, you don't have a choice. You you don't enter into a high risk.

这些地方本应是世界上最安全的地方。大学校园里已经发生了24起枪击事件。

These are supposed to be the safest places in the world. There's been 24 shootings on college campuses.

还有学校和高中以及文法学校。

And school and high schools and grammar school.

哦，那还只是大学。我们说的是每年4万人，每天121人。我反复说过，来到英国附带的免费礼物是，我不再会有那种可怕的幻想，担心早上起来在CNN上看到我孩子的高中出事的新闻。

Oh, that's just colleges. And we're talking 40,000 people a year, 121 people every day. And I've said this over and over, the the free gift with purchase coming to The UK is I no longer have these horror fantasies around getting up in the morning and seeing my kids high school on CNN.

我当时在想，大学这个概念到底是什么？我采访过乔丹·克莱珀。实际上，他最近的纪录片是关于查理·柯克的，讲了他去那里的经历。那是一次非常有趣的讨论，因为在很多方面，他说他成功的原因是他真的出现了并和他们交谈了，对吧？这才是关键。

I was, you know, I was thinking, like, what is this idea of what a college is? I I interviewed, you know, Jordan Klepper. Actually, His recent documentary was about Charlie Kirk, about how he went there. And it was a really interesting discussion because in many ways, was saying the reason why he was successful is he actually showed up and talked to them, right? That was the thing.

这就是为什么他能说服他们。他说，情况有点不同，但也没那么大差别，就像那些来校园发免费帽子和啤酒的人一样，对吧？就像，嘿，不管发生了什么，不管营销手段是什么，但他确实是在推销那些理念。就在他去世前，他还在扔帽子。他是在制造一种情境。

And that's why he was able to convince them. He goes, It was sort of a little bit different, but not that much as it was people that came to campus and gave out free hats and beers, right? Like, hey, whatever had happened, whatever the marketing thing had to be, but he really did market the ideas. And he was just before he died, he was throwing out hats. He was creating a situation.

我同意你的看法。我一直有点疑惑，为什么没有民主党人为他们的立场做类似版本的事情？再次说明，让我说，从他嘴里说出来的话让我和许多其他人听到都非常不安。我想我开始忽略他说的很多话，因为我知道他那么做是为了惹人生气。但如果你是一名大学生，那会是...我不想用‘触发’这个词，因为它已经被滥用了，但那确实让人不舒服。

And I would I would agree with you. It was I was always sort of where was a a a version of this for Democrats making their case? And, again, let me say, stuff that came out of his mouth was so upsetting to hear for for me and many others. I think I I kind of stopped I started ignoring a lot of the stuff he said because I knew he was doing it to get people's goat. But if you were a college student, that would be I don't wanna use the word trigger because it's gotten so abused, but it was it was not nice.

对吧？比如，如果你是一个同性恋者，或者一个女人，或者一个黑人女性，或任何其他身份，听到他说的话。然而，你知道，我们的世界有那种海德公园角式的理念，海德公园是伦敦的一个公园，人们可以站在肥皂箱上想说什么就说什么。其中一些言论真的非常恶劣。我去过那里，那感觉真的像是，你刚才说了什么？

Right? Like, you were a gay person, the things he said, or a woman or a black woman or whatever. And yet, you know, there's that sort of Hyde Park corner kind of idea of our world where, you know, idea of the Hyde Park is a park in London where people can say whatever they get on a soapbox and say whatever they want. And some of it's really just heinous. I've been there, and it's really like, what did you just say?

而且我认为我们已经失去了不反应的能力，因为你应该反应，应该生气。你应该反驳。你应该感到愤怒，对吧？我认为所有这些对于心智的发展都是有好处的，对吧？不然重点是什么？

And I think we've lost the ability not react, because you should react and get angry. You should push back. You should be incensed, right? I think all those things are kind of good for the development of minds, right? Like, what's the whole point?

他们刚才说？但这几乎就像在酒吧里一样。比如，你不会因此就打人。你不会那样，当那种情况发生时，你会觉得对方是个混蛋。实际上，这种情况经常发生。

Did they just say? But it's almost like being in a bar. Like, you don't then hit someone. You don't then, you're like, you're an asshole when that happens. I mean, it happens a lot, actually.

我不知道问题是什么，我谈过这个，我确实认为网络上的情况更糟。它以一种我不明白的方式侵入人们的头脑，导致你这样做，比如爬上屋顶，以处决的方式枪击某人。这种跳跃是怎么发生的？有时我觉得，那种充斥的仇恨言论，尤其是网上的，尤其是当它病毒式传播时，会在人们脑中发酵。那种从...比如说，如果你对我说了冒犯的话，斯科特（我不拿柯克举例因为他刚去世）...

And I don't know what The problem is, and I talked about this, is that I do think online gets it even worse. Like, it gets into people's heads in a way that I don't know what would cause you to do this, to like get on climb yourself on a roof and shoot someone, like in execution style. Like, what is the jump? And sometimes I think, you know, sort of the stew of hate speech that's available to people sits in their brain, especially online, especially as it goes viral. What is that leap from, you know, if you said something to me offensive, Scott, I'm not gonna use Kirk as an example because just died.

但如果你对我说了很糟糕的话，为什么我的第一反应会是拿枪射你？那个瞬间是怎么发生的？我认为很多网络上的东西确实影响了人们。你可以在枪手的笔记中看到，可以在明尼苏达州枪击案凶手的记录中看到。

But if you said something terrible to me, why would my first thing be to get a gun and shoot you? Like, what hap where's that moment? And I think I think a lot of the stuff online does get people. You can see it in the notes from shooters. You can see it in the peep the guy who shot the people in Minnesota.

有一种东西，伴随着持续沉浸在网络中，尤其是在视频等内容中，会形成那个爆发点。我不知道那是什么，但确实存在一个时刻，他们会说‘我觉得我应该去弄把枪’。这不是什么新鲜事。纵观历史，这种事一直存在。但现在似乎比过去更容易发生这种跳跃。

There's something that turns with the constant steeping online, especially, and in videos and things like that, that creates that jumping off point. I don't know what it is, but there is a moment where they say, I think what I'll do is get a gun. And I think what I'll do and that's not a new thing. Look, we've had that happen throughout history. But it seems like just so much of an easier leap than it used to be.

也许我错了。

Maybe I'm wrong.

我认为...但你看，我觉得可以将其分解为几个因素。一是人们花在网上的时间越来越多，这带来几个影响。算法将参与度与激怒度挂钩。所以如果你上网，它会试图判断你是保守派还是进步派，然后把你推向极端，开始让另一方看起来糟糕、邪恶、危险。于是，一种愤怒的文化在分裂我们，由资金最雄厚、如神般的技术驱动，而监管机构却如同旧石器时代般落后。

I think it's But see, I do think you can disarticulate it down to a few things. And that is, one, people are spending more and more time online, and that does a couple things. One, the algorithms have connected engagement with enragement. So if you if you want, if you go online, it tries to figure out if you're conservative or progressive, and then take you to the extreme and start making the other side look bad, look evil, look dangerous. And so there's there's a culture of rage dividing us, being fueled by the deepest pocketed godlike technology with paleolithic institutions to regulate them.

说得太好了。

So That's incredibly well said.

美国的利润动机以及主导整个市场的十家公司，有一种分裂我们的愤怒动机。也许他们并非有意，但事实如此。二是年轻男性的社会孤立。太多年轻男性进入那些信息茧房，变得愤怒，因为他们远程工作不去办公室，经济机会减少，学业表现不佳，前额叶皮层发育不如女性快，浪漫机会也更少。他们不与朋友联系。

Our profit motive in The United States and 10 companies driving the entire market have a rage motive that divide us. Maybe they didn't intend to, but that is what's going on. Two, the social the social isolation of young men. And that is too many young men are going into those bubbles, getting enraged, and they because they're not going into work because of remote work, because they're not getting as many economic opportunities, because they're not doing as well in school, because their prefrontal cortex doesn't develop as fast as a woman's, because they don't have as many romantic opportunities. They're not connecting with friends.

他们不与工作联系，不与浪漫伴侣联系，或与家庭隔离。当这些防护栏消失时，他们就没有能力去意识到‘哦，我在工作中遇到了一个特朗普支持者，你知道吗？他看起来是个挺不错的人’。

They're not connecting with work. They're not connecting with romantic partners or isolating from their family. And when that happens, when those guardrails are no longer present, they don't have the ability to see, oh, I just met a trumpet at work. And you know what? He seems like a pretty cool guy.

或者他激怒了我，我就不跟他说话了。

Or he enrages me and I'm not gonna talk to

他，对吧？是的，但我学会了如何应对。我意识到，当我的女友、母亲或父亲说'你他妈的在做什么说什么？停下来，那样不对'时。

him, right? Yeah, but I learned how to deal with it. And I realized that, or my girlfriend or my mother or my father says, what the fuck are you doing and saying? Stop that. No, that's not right.

或者他们开始提出一些问题，帮助阐明你的想法毫无道理。所以我们有与愤怒相关联的利益集团。我们有社交孤立的年轻人，他们没有约束机制，开始越来越容易产生非理性行为——如果他们社交更多，就会有更强的约束。然后最糟糕的是，我们让愤怒的公众、年轻男性和缺乏约束更容易产生非理性思想和行为的男性，能够轻易获得战争武器。

Or they start asking you questions that help illuminate that what you are thinking makes no sense. So we have people we have profit connected to rage. We have the social isolation of young people who have no guardrails and start becoming increasingly prone to irrational behavior that if they were more social, they'd have greater guardrails. And then the kicker is we take an enraged public and young men and men who have no guardrails and are much more prone to irrational thoughts and behavior, and then we make weapons of war easily accessible.

是的。确实如此。你知道，历史上一直都有枪击案发生。整个历史都是如此，对吧？

Yeah. It it really is. It's you know, there again, there have been shooters over all of history. History. Right?

这并不是说...总是有人在某个地方这样做，但感觉对很多人来说，跨出那一步的门槛变得低多了。对吧？我想我会拿把枪。我一直在想什么？做这件事的人就像是'我要拿上我的枪'。

There's not this is not there's always someone somewhere, but it just feels like that leap is so much smaller for so many people. Right? I think I'll take a gun. I just kept thinking what? Whoever did this was like, I'm gonna take my gun.

'我要爬上那个屋顶。我要去杀人。'并且认为这是正确的选择。你懂我的意思吗？就像，这是你唯一的...为什么你不下去问他个他妈的问题，对他大喊大叫？

I'm gonna climb up on that roof. I'm gonna murder someone. And thinking it was the right choice. You know what I mean? Like, this is your only Why don't you go down there and ask him a fucking question and yell at him?

就像，你懂我的意思吗？对我来说，这就像是...也许这个人精神有问题。我不知道。有件事我们应该很快讨论一下，这件事的衍生影响就是所有关于这个人死亡的阴谋论，谋杀。我要说这是谋杀。

Like, you know what I mean? Like, what that to me, it's just there's I don't maybe this person's mentally ill. I don't know. One of the things that we should talk about very quickly, the offshoot of this is all these conspiracy theories around this guy's death, murder. I'm gonna say it's a murder.

确实是。令人难以置信的是他们有所有这些视频。看起来他们几乎拍下了一切，这对执法来说是个有趣的现象。但现在出现了所有这些阴谋论。现在有个视频显示两个人在做手势，看起来像是在告诉枪手...还有其他人说这是俄罗斯或以色列的情报行动等等。

It is. What's incredible is they have all these videos. It looks like they have videos of almost everything, and that's an interesting thing in law enforcement. But now there's all these conspiracy theories. There's now a video of two guys making hand signals, looking like they're telling Then the shooter to there's other people talk saying it's a you know, it's an intelligent ops from Russia or Israel or this and that.

然后另一个人争论说，哦，如果是那样，他们就不会被人在屋顶上看到，这有点道理。如果你真的很擅长你的工作，基本上不会被看到。这些阴谋论的东西就是，你知道，查理·柯克死了对谁有利，让注意力从爱泼斯坦文件中转移开。对吧？你坐在那里就想，如果你是个年轻人...我一直对这些事情感到困惑。

And then another person arguing, oh, if it was that, they wouldn't be seen on the roof, which kinda makes sense. If you're really good at what you do, you don't get seen essentially. And it just it this conspiracy stuff is, you know, who who's in whose interest is it for Charlie Kirk to be dead and move away from the Epstein files. Right? And you just sit there and you're like, what if you were a young I kept I'm confused by all this stuff.

我就想，哦，然后我就被拖进去了，然后我又想，不，不，停下来。我们现在什么都不知道。对吧？

I'm like, oh, And then I you get I get dragged in, and then I'm like, no. No. Stop. We don't know anything right now. Right?

但如果你是个年轻人，天啊，所有这些谋杀后的阴谋论更让人难以应对。我觉得在这方面非常令人不安。我无法想象一个对这些事情判断力还不够成熟的年轻人要怎么面对。

But if you're a young person, boy, is all this post murder conspiracy theory is even worse to have to deal with. I don't I just find it very upsetting in that regard. And I can't imagine being a young person who's who's not quite there on judgment on any of this stuff.

而且，我们并没有——我昨天也参与了这个讨论——我们没有任何类似事实核查或可衡量的机制。所以，这又是一群社交孤立的年轻人，出于传播阴谋论的牟利动机。通常这类枪手符合某种模式，不总是但通常是，他们是年轻男性，希望通过他们视为英雄主义暴力行为来重获社会资本。他们孤立无援，感觉不被尊重，试图夺回社会资本，并认为能够做到，因为他们被说服相信这个人或这场运动是真正邪恶的，而杀死这个人会让他们成为英雄。

Well, and we don't have and I'm a party to this yesterday. We don't have anything resembling fact checking or anything that's measured. So, you know, it's again, these socially isolated young people with a profit motive around spreading conspiracy theory. Typically typically, these types of shooters fit a tip not always, but typically, they're young men who are hoping to regain social capital with what they see as a heroic act of violence. They're, you know, isolated and feel like people don't respect them, are looking to gain back social capital and think they can get it because they've been convinced this person or this movement is truly demonic and that they would be heroic in killing this person.

而且，哦，顺便说一下，爸爸有把狙击步枪。我的意思是，我不知道你是否也有这种感觉。我内心感到异常沉重。我只是想，哦，该死。这对每个人和每件事都太糟糕了。

And, oh, by the way, dad's got a sniper rifle. Mean, I don't know if you felt this way. I felt unnaturally hit in the gut by this. I just thought, oh, fuck. This is just so bad for everyone and everything.

我为他感到难过。我为他的家人感到难过。我为这将对大学校园对话产生的寒蝉效应感到难过。我感觉对话会立即被政治化，并开始指责激进左派，

And I feel bad for him. I feel bad for his family. I feel bad for the the the chilling on dialogue this is gonna have on university campuses. I I feel that the dialogue is immediately gonna go to be politicized and blaming the radical left,

这事已经发生了。

which happened to ahead.

是的。而且，哦，我已经看到一些东西了。比如，你知道，哦，枪手是跨性别者吗？我的意思是，你已经看到这种狗屎了，对吧？

Yeah. And, oh, I'm already seeing stuff. I'm like, you know, oh, was it a trans shooter? And I mean, you're already seeing this shit. Right?

是...我现在看到的是，是爱泼斯坦案的枪手吗？因为他在爱泼斯坦的事情上退缩了。你懂我的意思吗？就像，你坐在那里想，可能是任何人，因为他们都他妈疯了。

Was it an I'm seeing now, was it an Epstein shooter? Because he backed off on the Epstein stuff. You know what I mean? Like and you sit there, it's like, could be anybody because they're all fucking crazy.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

你懂我的意思吗？就像，你会想，哦，天哪。我觉得奇怪的是，我讨厌这件事的一点是，我们有这么多信息，而其中大部分都很糟糕，对吧？我在网上一直避免对任何事情发表太多看法，因为我觉得，我不知道。我想等等看这里会发生什么，然后再弄清楚

You know what I mean? Like, you're like, oh my God. And I think the fact that we One of the things I hate about this in a weird way is we have so much information and so much of it is bad, Right? I have refrained from saying very much about anything online because I'm like, I don't know. I wanna wait and see what happens here and then figure out

什么

what

我刚才想说的是，我只是把它删掉了，我需要更小心些。我看到了玛乔丽·泰勒·格林的一个视频，在我看来，她在所有爱泼斯坦的事情上一直非常勇敢。我看到这个视频，她走出办公室，贴了一张那张卡片（的图片），对吧？把它贴在她办公室前面，然后拍了拍手。

Where I was going with this is, and I merely took it down and I need to be more careful. I saw this video of Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has been, in my opinion, very courageous around all of the Epstein stuff. I saw this video of her coming outside of her office and putting up a picture of that, card. Right? And putting it on her, the front of her office and then hitting her hands together.

我当时就，哇。你知道吗，我立刻把它发出去并说，看着这个我心情很复杂。然后我的朋友们马上就说，斯科特，这是AI生成的。我心想，哦，糟了。我立刻就删掉了。

I'm like, wow. You know, and I immediately posted it and said, you know, I have a lot of mixed emotions looking at this. And then immediately my files were like, Scott, it's AI. I'm like, oh, fuck. And I immediately took it down.

是啊。不过在删之前已经发出去了，已经让120万人看到了。

Yeah. Not before it went but not before it went out to 1,200,000 people.

我知道。我知道。我知道。这就是为什么我说，我几乎没发什么除了——那是斯宾塞·考克斯。我能再问你一个问题吗？

I know. I know. I know. I that's why I did said, I have posted very little except for the that's Spencer Cox. Can can I ask you one more question?

我们得继续了。但你说过你对在大学校园露面感到紧张。

We have to move on. But you said you'd nervous about appearing on college campuses.

我不是紧张，但我身边有个很亲近的人知道我要在一所公立大学演讲。我的影响力和受欢迎程度远不如这家伙，所以我不是想听起来，也不是想制造

I'm I'm not, but I have someone very close to my life who knew I'm supposed to speak at a public university. I don't have nearly the footprint in popularity of this guy, so I don't mean to sound, I don't mean to create

但是错误的

But false

我本来要在一所大学，一所大型公立州立大学演讲，有个和我很亲近的人说，不，你不能去。是啊。你知道，这显然引发了情绪反应。这个人说过，哦，没错，别管那么多，你不能去。而喜剧演员曾经是这里的反击力量，我认为左派对查理·柯克的愤怒部分原因坦率地说就是因为他更有效率。

I'm supposed to speak at a university, a big public state university, and someone very close to me is like, no, you're not going. Yeah. You know, obviously this evokes an emotional reaction. And this person has said, oh yeah, don't give a shit, you're not going. And comedians who used to be the pushback here, I think a part of the anger from the left from Charlie Kirk was quite frankly because he was just more effective.

坦率地说，我们没有像查理·柯克那样有组织、年轻、勇敢的等效人物走进校园。他不害怕。他站在人们面前。有时他观点很棒。有时他看起来很蠢。

We did not have an equivalent Charlie Kirk going on campus as organized, as youthful, quite frankly, as courageous. He was not afraid. He got in front of people. Sometimes he made a great point. Sometimes he looked stupid.

他不在乎。他在特朗普的选举中扮演了重要角色。我认为左派之所以对查理·柯克如此愤怒，部分原因坦率地说就是因为他比我们更有效率。

He didn't care. He played a huge role in Trump's election. And I think part of the venom from the left around how pissed off they were about Charlie Kirk was, quite frankly, he was just more effective than us.

部分原因吧。他说的有些话很糟糕。

Part of it. Some of the things he said were terrible.

100分。

A 100.

他是故意的。嗯，他是故意的。

He did it on purpose. Well, He did it on purpose.

就像很多人一样，他会说些煽动性的话来引起反应，获得更多YouTube视频，即使即使我不知道，也许他真信这些鬼话，也许，希望他不信吧。但不管怎样，以前在校园里做这种事的是喜剧演员。而现在喜剧演员不愿去校园了，因为他们觉得，我不想有人对我大声呵斥或在我面前挥舞巴勒斯坦国旗，我就是不需要那种破事。所以我们左派，我记得在UCLA的时候，从比尔·默瑞到REM，到我（暴露年龄了）卡尔·伊坎都曾来过。我知道很多人现在会说，我才他妈不去校园呢。

Like a lot of people, he would say incendiary things to get a reaction and get more YouTube videos, even if even if I don't know, you know, maybe he believes this shit, maybe, you know, hopefully he doesn't. But anyways, who used to be on campus doing this was comedians. And now comedians won't go on campus because they're like, I don't need anyone shouting me down or waving a Palestinian flag in my face, or I just don't need that shit. And so we on the left, I just I remember UCLA when I was there, everyone from Bill Murray to REM to, you know, I'm dating myself to Carl Icahn used to show up. And I I know a lot of people are like, I'm not going to fucking campus.

你听说我朋友在校园里遭遇什么了吗？顺便说一句，极右派人士也经常遇到同样的事。

Did you hear what happened to my friend on campus? And by the way, it happens just as much to people on the far right.

极左派也是。极左派

Far left too. Far left

和右派。两边都会发生。有人不高兴了，他们在校园里就觉得有胆量去打断对方，试图让对方出丑，或者更糟。对吧？这真的很，我觉得可能最终会导致这样一种环境：我想在某些时候，校园里可能得安装金属探测器。

and right. It happens both. Someone's upset, and they feel on campus emboldened to interrupt them, try and make them look stupid, or worse. Right? And it's really, I mean, probably headed to an environment where we're gonna have, I would think at some point, we might have metal detectors on campus.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我知道。这方面确实令人沮丧

I know. It's it's depressing in that

。如果你现在被邀请去校园演讲，面对广场上两三千人的大场面，你会感觉如何？

regard. How would you feel if you were invited to speak at a campus right now in a large crowd, two or 3,000 people outside in the square like that? How would you feel?

紧张，因为紧张。就一些基本的意见分歧，你或我可能会说得很强硬，因为我们总是在开玩笑说些粗鲁的话。我是说，说过谁鸡巴小，我忘了是谁了。你知道，诸如此类的话。我们老是这么说。

Nervous, because nervous. Just basic areas of disagreement that you or I might say strongly, because we're always making jokes and saying rude things. I mean, said, someone had a micro dick, I forget who it was. You know, stuff like that. We're always saying that.

但我当时想，要是真有个持枪的疯狂网络暴徒出现，是的，我现在能想象那个画面了。而以前我完全想象不到。比如，他们就因为我说的某件小事而暴怒，这让我很紧张。确实如此。确实如此。

But I was like, one crazy fucking online incensed person with a gun shows up, yeah, I could see it now. And before, I could never see it. Like, they got mad at one little thing I said, it makes me nervous. It does. It does.

不是因为我不希望别人不同意我的观点，而是我觉得有些网民身上发生了某些变化，而且他们还能搞到枪。是的。这让人神经紧张。是的。我能预见到这种情况。

Because it's not because I think, I don't want people to disagree with me, it's that I think some people have Something's happened to some people online, and they have access to a gun. That's Yeah. It's nerve wracking. Yeah. I could see it.

100%同意。

100%.

有那么一瞬间，确实会想到这个。总之长话短说，我想谈谈世界另一端尼泊尔的政治暴力事件，这在很多方面都令人震惊。在青少年和年轻人领导的大规模抗议演变成致命冲突后，该国现已实施全国宵禁。动荡始于政府禁止社交媒体，但抗议者同时还呼吁解决失业、腐败和不平等问题。这不仅仅是社交媒体的问题，但社交媒体引爆了这种精英主义文化，并使其具体显现出来。

For a second, definitely think about it. Anyway, very quickly, I I wanna talk about the political violence the other side of the world in Nepal, which is really sort of shocking in a lot of ways. The country is now under nationwide curfew after mass protests led by teenagers and young adults turned deadly. The unrest began after the government banned social media, but protesters also were calling out unemployment, corruption, and inequality. It was a bigger thing than just social media, but social media set it off about this sort of culture of elitism, and it sort of manifested itself.

我想讨论这件事的唯一原因是，我从多个消息来源听说他们即将宣布TikTok的交易方案。很可能由拉里·埃里森和一批投资者接手。我在网上注意到了这个情况。其中一个关键点当然是：它原本应该被禁止的，对吧？而这原本应该是解决方案。

And the only reason I wanna talk about it is because what I'm hearing from lots of sources that they're about to announce the TikTok deal. It's probably going to Larry Ellison and a bunch of investors. I noted this online. And one of the things, of course, was it was supposed to be banned, right? And this is supposed to be the solution to it.

我在想，如果它真的被禁了会怎样？年轻人身上会发生类似的事情吗？在这个国家可能不会，但保罗，我不知道你对发生的事情有什么看法。社交媒体在某种程度上是导火索。我不认为它是根本原因，但尽管如此。

And I wondered, what if it did get banned? Would something like this happen with young people? Probably not in this country, but I don't know if you have any thoughts on what happened, Paul. It was sort of social media is what set it off. I don't think it was the root cause, but nonetheless.

我对此了解不多，只知道通常是年轻人发起革命，因为年轻人更愿意冒险，愿意去广场并冒着被枪击的风险。但坦率地说，我并不是想——显然任何地方的生命损失都是悲剧——但我只是觉得他们失去了Instagram。那是压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草。他们的Instagram被拿走了。这感觉，这感觉让我没想到会这样。

I don't know that much about it other than typically it's young people that start revolutions because young people are more risk aggressive and willing to go to a square and risk getting shot. But I mean, quite frankly, I'm not trying to, obviously loss of life is anywhere as a tragedy, but I just thought they got their Instagram. That was the final straw. They got their Instagram taken away. It just feel, it felt like I would not have guessed that.

我对尼泊尔文化一无所知。不知道那是不是部分原因

I don't know anything about the Nepalese culture. Don't that's part

一些国家——不是这个国家——把社交媒体当作一切。就像，它就是电视。它还包括商业。对吧？产业就是那么运作的

of Countries not countries not this country use social media as everything. Like, it's it's TV. It's And so including business. Right? That's how the industry

当他们夺走你的媒体时，就相当于关闭了报纸和电视台。

is. Shutting down the newspapers and the TV stations when they take away your media.

是的。对于那些不理解的人来说，我认为这是一种极其腐败的裙带经济体系，这些人已经受够了。然后他们却说，现在你不能发表任何言论。而这个国家本应有言论自由的文化。总之，看着这一切很有意思。

Yeah. For people that don't understand it, and I think this was a hugely corrupt sort of nepo economy where these people had just about had it. And then they were like, now you can't say anything. And and it has a culture of free speech, this country. Anyway, it's just interesting to watch.

是的。我敢打赌你总结得很到位。我甚至不知道发生了什么，但我觉得我知道是怎么回事——这只是一个借口，但我敢肯定，根本原因是年轻人缺乏经济机会。那是导火索，而剥夺他们的社交媒体则是点燃火星。如果你逆向分析几乎任何青年起义，都是因为他们对某些人垄断资源感到愤怒，然后说：好吧，我们受够了。

Yeah. I'll bet anything you you just summarize it. I don't even know what happened, and I think I know what happened in that this was the excuse, but I'll bet you anything, it's a lack of economic opportunity for young people. That was the kindling and them taking away their social media was the spark. If you reverse engineer almost any uprising among youth, it's that they get pissed off that there's a group of people sucking oxygen out of the room from them and that that, okay, we're fed up.

我们看不到我们看不到未来能组建家庭、受到公平对待的希望，而这是一群老年人聚集了太多信息，或者抱歉，是太多权力。

We don't see we don't see a future for us to to find a family, be treated fairly, and it's a group of it's a group of old people who are aggregating too much information or I'm sorry, too much too much power.

没错。完全正确。你知道，我经常不说这个，因为我确实认为有些言论确实是仇恨性和有害的。但解决很多这类问题的方法是更多的言论和对话。我觉得让我特别耿耿于怀的是，NBC解雇了马修·道徳，他在节目中说了些非常事实性的话——可能时机不对——关于柯克，他似乎把柯克的死归咎于柯克自己。

Yep. Exactly. And, you know, I often don't say this because I do think some speech is indeed hateful and damaging. But the solution to a lot of this is more speech and more dialogue. And I think one thing that really kind of stuck in my crow was that NWS NBC let go of Matthew Dowd, who said some very factual things on the air, perhaps not good timing about Kirk, and he seemed to blame Kirk for his own death.

我听了。我不太清楚他是否真的那么说了。他谈论的是，就像我们刚才说的，世界上有太多仇恨，他 essentially 是在说，你向世界散播仇恨，就别惊讶会反弹回来，这在当时可能不是最得体的话。

I listened to it. I wasn't really clear if he actually said that. What he was talking about was, you know, what we were just saying is that there's so much hate that he was essentially saying he put hate out in the world, don't be surprised if you get it back, which is probably not the nicest thing to say at the moment.

他说你提高了温度，就可能被烫伤，对吧？我感觉，当我看到他的评论时，我觉得MSNBC essentially 是在像民主党 virtue signaling（道德表演）并踢走阿尔·弗兰肯一样。我只是想，好吧。这对我们有利。对我们有利。

He said you raise the temperature like on that, you might get burned, right? Felt like this was, when I saw his comments, I felt that MSNBC was essentially, the Democratic party virtue signaling and kicking out Al Franken. I just thought, okay. Good for us. Good for us.

我 我 我不。

I I I don't.

我不明白。是的。我 我没理解那个。我 我写给了那里的一些人，我说，抱歉。我只是，再次，不管你对查理·伯特有什么看法，他一向是直言不讳的。

I don't get it. Yeah. I I didn't get that. I I wrote that some people there, and I was like, I'm sorry. I just like, again, this is whatever you think about Charlie Burt, he was about saying things.

对吧？想多 provocative（挑衅）都行。而我 我并不觉得那特别 provocative。也许在有人去世时我们应该更友善一点，对吧？绝对应该。

Right? As provocative as you want. And I I don't find that particularly provocative. And maybe we should be a little nicer, right, when someone dies? Absolutely.

但这似乎反应过度了，像是某种程度上的 overreaction（过度反应）。

But it seemed over, like it was an overreaction overreaction in such a way.

好消息是，无论福克斯说什么，我们都可以信任它，并且错误地指责民主党人负责，他们不会被解雇。

I was The good news is we we can trust it no matter what Fox says, and and falsely accuse the Democrats of being responsible, they will not get fired.

是的，我知道。我当时想，杰西·沃特斯，你看过杰西·沃特斯那边吗？就像，我简直... 这感觉就像我们在打仗。

Yeah. I know that. I was like, Jesse Watter have you looked over at Jesse Watters? Like, what in the I don't. It's like, we're at war.

我心想，我没有在和你打仗，杰西·沃特斯。这到底是怎么回事？他到底在说什么？我知道班农这么做只是为了扮演班农的角色。

I'm like, I'm not at war with you, Jesse Waters. What in the hell? Like, what is he talking about? And I know Bannon's just doing it to be Bannon.

我没搞懂。当我第一次看到他的片段时，我以为肯定还有另一个片段能解释他为什么被解雇。我认为，我认为那是个混蛋举动。而且我很喜欢

I didn't get it. When I first saw his clip, I thought there must be another clip for why he got fired. I I think that was I think that was a bullshit move. And I loved

我同意。

I would agree.

我很喜欢MSNBC的领导层。我想我搞错了。

I love the leadership over at MSNBC. I think I got this wrong.

是的，我也是。不管怎样，其实我也跟他说过这个。好了，我们稍事休息一下。回来之后，随着甲骨文股价飙升，拉里·埃里森成为世界首富。

Yeah. Me too. Anyway, I actually told him this too. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Larry Ellison becomes the richest person in the world as Oracle stock soars.

本节目由Vanta赞助。以下是现代世界中可能对您公司生存至关重要的几样东西：互联网接入、税号、一个很棒的零食柜。嗯，还有一样东西也至关重要：信任。在当今快速变化的数字世界中，证明您的公司值得信赖不仅对增长很重要，而且是必不可少的。这就是Vanta存在的意义。

Support for this show comes from Vanta. Here are a few things that are probably essential to your company's survival in the modern world, Internet access, a tax ID, a great snack pantry. Well, here's something else that's essential, trust. In today's fast changing digital world, proving your company is trustworthy isn't just important for growth, it's essential. That's why Vanta is here.

Vanta帮助各种规模的公司通过行业领先的AI自动化和持续监控，快速实现合规并保持合规状态。因此，无论您是初创公司处理第一个SOC 2或ISO 27001认证，还是企业管理供应商风险，Vanta的信任管理平台都使其更快、更容易且更具可扩展性。Vanta还帮助您将安全问卷的完成速度提高多达五倍，从而让您能更快赢得更大的交易。根据最近的一项IDC研究，Vanta客户每年节省超过50万美元的成本，并且工作效率提高了三倍。建立信任不是可选项。

Vanta helps companies of all sizes get compliant fast and stay that way with industry leading AI automation and continuous monitoring. So whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC two or ISO twenty seven zero zero one or you're an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta's trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable. Vanta also helps you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster so you can win bigger deals sooner. The results, according to a recent IDC study, Vanta customers slash over $500,000 a year in costs and are three times more productive. Establishing trust isn't optional.

Vanta使其自动化。请访问 vanta.com/pivot 立即注册免费演示。网址是 vanta.com/pivot。本节目由DeleteMe赞助。越来越多的恶意行为者利用我们所有人留在网上的个人数据痕迹来针对政治对手、公务员，甚至只是发表意见的直言不讳的公民。

Vanta makes it automatic. Visit vanta.com/pivot to sign up for a free demo today. That's vanta.com/pivot. Support for the show comes from DeleteMe. More and more nefarious actors are using the personal data trails we all leave online to target political rivals, civil servants, and even outspoken citizens just posting their opinions.

但你不必是公众人物也会面临网络攻击的危险。2025年8月，谷歌甚至向许多Gmail用户发出警告，称黑客一直在针对他们的账户。在监控和数据泄露司空见惯、让每个人都变得脆弱的时代，DeleteMe让在线删除个人数据变得简单、快速且安全。这一点非常清楚。作为一名科技记者，我经常思考人们的数据卫生以及如何保持数据安全。

But you don't have to be a public figure to be in danger of an online attack. In August 2025, Google even issued a warning to many Gmail users that hackers have been targeting their accounts. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. That is so clear. As a tech reporter, I think a lot about people's data hygiene and how to keep it together.

隐私是主要问题之一，而国会和其他机构却未采取任何措施来保护我们。就连我自己使用DeleteMe时也惊讶地发现，网上关于我的信息如此之多，而且很多都不准确。因此，请通过注册DeleteMe来控制你的数据，保护你的私生活。现在为我们的听众提供特别折扣，访问join.deleteme.com/kara并在结账时使用促销代码Kara，即可享受DeleteMe计划20%的折扣。获得20%折扣的唯一方式是访问join.deleteme.com/kara并在结账时输入代码Kara。

Privacy is one of the major issues, and congress and others have done nothing to protect us. Even I am surprised using delete me how much stuff is out there about me and much of it inaccurate. So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for delete me. Now at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to join deleteme.com/kara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to join deleteme.com/kara and enter the code Kara at checkout.

网址是join.deleteme.com/kara，代码是Kara。本节目由Indeed赞助。你有没有走进过一家咖啡店，那里排着长队，但柜台只有一名咖啡师？显然，你会同情那个拼命准备订单的人，但也不禁会想，为什么他们不招聘帮手呢？讽刺的是，你正要去做和他们一模一样的事情——试图独自经营整个生意，因为你还没有招聘所需的帮手。

That's join deleteme.com/kara, code Kara. Support for this show comes from Indeed. Have you ever walked into a coffee shop where there was a long line and only one barista at the counter? I mean, obviously, you feel for the person desperately trying to get your orders prepared, but you also can't help but wonder why haven't they hired any help. The irony is you're heading off to do exactly what they're doing trying to run an entire business all by yourself because you haven't hired the help you need.

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Thankfully, there is Indeed. With millions of job seekers and powerful tools to help you post, screen, and interview all in one place, Indeed makes hiring faster, easier, and smarter. Indeed sponsored jobs helps you stand out and find top talent fast. How fast is Indeed? In the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed according to Indeed data worldwide.

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And with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. Join the 3,500,000 employers worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed, and listeners to the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com/pivot. Just go to indeed.com/pivot right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast, indeed.com/pivot.

条款和条件适用。Indeed就是您所需的一切。Scott，我们回来了。甲骨文创始人拉里·埃里森本周短暂成为世界首富，略微超过了埃隆·马斯克。在甲骨文股价因出色的财报而飙升（一度上涨42%）后，他的净资产在周三攀升至39,300亿美元。

Terms and conditions apply. Indeed is all you need. Scott, we're back. Oracle founder Larry Ellison briefly became the world's richest person this week, edging out Elon Musk. His net worth climbed to, $393,000,000,000 Wednesday after Oracle shares skyrocketed on a blockbuster earnings report, up 42% at one point.

甲骨文表示，其在最新季度赢得了数份价值数十亿美元的合同，预订量较一年前翻了两番。公司还预测，其人工智能驱动的云业务收入到2030年将从180亿美元跃升至1,440亿美元。除此之外，OpenEye刚刚签署了一项协议，向甲骨文购买价值3,000亿美元的计算能力。再说一次，我理解他将控制TikTok或以某种方式成为主导人物，而且他显然与特朗普总统关系非常密切。他们之前也参与过TikTok的事务。

Oracle said it won several billion dollar contracts in the latest quarter, quadrupling bookings from a year before. The company also is forecasting that revenue from its AI powered cloud business will jump from 18,000,000,000 to 144,000,000,000 by 2030. On top of all that, OpenEye just signed a deal to purchase $300,000,000,000 in computing power from Oracle. And again, I am understanding he's gonna get control of TikTok or somehow be the lead person in that, and he's obviously very close to president Trump. And they had been involved with TikTok before.

公平地说，上次他们试图解决TikTok问题时，他们是参与者之一。谁知道呢？等事情发生时我们再讨论。但是，你知道，这也有点像英伟达的情况。

Let me be fair. They were part of when they the last time they were trying to figure out what to do about TikTok. Who knows? We'll we'll talk about that when it happens. But, you know, this is sort of NVIDIA too.

我我不知道。甲骨文现在是一个主要的人工智能参与者。你对这个怎么看？

I I don't know. This is Oracle is now a major AI player. What do you what do you think about this?

我认为埃里森是一个有远见的人，他加倍投入了。我想他意识到，好吧，世界上最有价值的公司应该是英伟达，那么成为围绕人工智能的第二大基础设施公司也不错。他进行了大规模投资，并且回报惊人。他们的云收入预计将增长77%，达到180亿美元。

I think Ellison is a visionary and he doubled down. I think he figured out that, okay, there should be one the most valuable company in the world, NVIDIA. It would be okay to be the the second biggest infrastructure company centered around AI. And he made a massive investment, and it's paying off like crazy. Their cloud revenue is projected to increase 77% to 18,000,000,000.

他们的云收入预期让市场兴奋不已。他们预测到2030年云收入将达到1440亿美元。这比去年100亿美元的收入增长了14倍。首席执行官可信地表示，我们将在未来四年内将云收入增长14倍。有趣的是，其中很大一部分来自与OpenAI的交易，该公司将在五年内购买3000亿美元的计算资源。

They expect their cloud revenue it was their projections that got the market excited. They projected their cloud revenue will hit a 144,000,000,000 by 2030. That's a 14 fold increase versus the 10,000,000,000 it brought in last year. It said, credibly, the CEO said, we're gonna increase our cloud revenue 14 x in the next four years. Now what's interesting here is a great deal of that comes from a deal with OpenAI who will purchase $300,000,000,000 computing in for five years.

听着，本质上OpenAI表示，尽管目前年收入只有100亿美元，但我们每年将向甲骨文支付600亿美元用于计算。他们对自身增长如此自信，以至于刚刚承诺每年在计算上投入600亿美元。是的。

So get this. Essentially, OpenAI has said, we're going to pay Oracle $60,000,000,000 a year for compute despite the fact we are currently, OpenAI, only making 10,000,000,000 a year. They are so confident in their growth that they've just committed to spend $60,000,000,000 a year on compute Yeah.

我注意到了。

I noticed that.

尽管目前只赚100亿美元。因此他短暂成为了世界首富。创下历史最大单日涨幅，36%。他拥有甲骨文约40%的股份。这很好地过渡到苹果的话题。

Despite only currently making 10,000,000,000. So he became the richest person in the world for a brief moment. Biggest one day gain in history, 36%. He owns approximately 40% of Oracle. And and this is a good bridge to to Apple.

拉里做的这个狠招是：甲骨文正在成为一家成熟的公司，利润丰厚，他们一直在回购股票。公司上市时他持有34%的股份。现在他持有超过40%，因为他们利用多余现金流回购股票，直到两年前他说，不行。未来在AI领域，这是一场军备竞赛。

What he has done is Larry's gangster move was Oracle was becoming a mature company, very profitable, and they were buying back shares. When the company went public, he owned 34%. Now he owns over 40% because they've used that excess cash flow to buy back shares until two years ago when he said, uh-uh. The future's in AI. It's an arms race.

我要大规模投资AI。谁没有这么做，卡拉？来个趣味问答。

I'm going to massively invest in AI. Who did not do that, Kara? Trivia question.

苹果。

Apple.

100%正确，加20分。有个人说，是时候重新穿上增长裤了，这么说吧，开始大规模投资AI。这可以说是过去五年最狠的战略举措，一家老公司说，去他的。

100%. Correct for 20. One guy said, it's time to put back on our growth pants, so to speak, and start massively investing in AI. And this was the gangster strategic move arguably of the last five years, was an old company saying, fuck it.

还是个老家伙。还是个老家伙。一家老公司。

And an old guy. And an old guy. An old company.

我们需要重新开始跳舞了。你们可能已经习惯了我们的股息。可能已经习惯了我们的股票回购。不行。我要大干一场，因为虽然现在没有能挑战英伟达的第二名，但将来会有的。

We need to start dancing again. You may have gotten used to our dividend. You may have gotten used to our share buybacks. Uh-uh. I'm going large because there's no number two to NVIDIA, but there's gonna be.

而现在，甲骨文公司基本上是直接伸出胳膊肘闯入了派对，并宣称：哦，不。你们可能觉得我们老土或过时什么的。但我们不是。我们很潮。我们这些大象也能跳舞。

And now squarely, Oracle is has basically put their elbows out and crashed the party and said, oh, no. You may think we're old and dodgy or whatever. We're not. We're hip. We elephants can dance.

现在，你知道，我的意思是，这确实是拉里·埃里森极其精明的一步棋。

And now, you know, I mean, this was Yeah. I an incredibly smart death move of Larry Ellison.

我绝不会小看他，还有他的CEO萨弗拉·卡茨。她也非常精明。我的意思是，我觉得这真的很有趣。当然，他们也看到了特朗普政府支持AI的迹象。你知道，他们在这些AI活动上露面非常积极。

I would never count him out and also his CEO, Safra Katz. She is really also very sharp. I mean, I think it's really interesting. I think, of course, they did also see the writing on the wall with the Trump administration backing AI. You know, they've been very aggressive at showing up at these AI events.

还记得他和萨姆·奥特曼一起参加了那个有总统出席的活动吗，那件事惹恼了埃隆·马斯克等等。同时，他在推特投了一大笔钱，而且可能他即将通过收购TikTok来背刺埃隆，对吧？或者至少控制TikTok。所以这家伙，就是不择手段。当然，他儿子收购派拉蒙的资金也是他提供的。

You remember he showed up at that event with Sam Altman with the president that pissed off Elon Musk and everything else. And at the same time, he put a big investment into Twitter, and probably he's about to double cross Elon by owning TikTok, right? Or at least controlling TikTok. So this guy, just whatever it takes. And of course, his son, he funded the son's purchase at Paramount.

所以，对于一个年长的人来说，这家伙真的精力非常旺盛，我得说。

And so this guy is just very vibrant for an elderly man, I'll say.

好吧，光是昨天的股价涨幅，36%，那是什么概念？我不确定具体涨了多少，但我很确定仅凭埃里森昨天增加的净资产，他们就能买下30或40个派拉蒙。我的意思是，他对儿子说：去玩吧。给你50或70亿美元。我刚增加了，你知道，我刚增加了1000亿美元的净资产。

Okay, well just in the price increase from yesterday, I mean 36%, what is that? I don't know what the increase I'm pretty sure they could buy 30 or 40 Paramounts with just the increase in Ellison's net worth yesterday. I mean, he said to his son, go play in traffic. Here's 5 or $7,000,000,000. I've just increased my, you know, I've just increased my net worth by a 100,000,000,000.

对吧？所以，是的，去和派拉蒙玩得开心。我的意思是，这里的数字太惊人了。我们来算算。他身价大约4000亿美元。

Right? So, yeah, go go have fun with Paramount. I mean, the numbers here are so staggering. It's I mean, let's do the math. He's worth about $400,000,000,000.

他，他，股价上涨了36%，所以涨了三分之一。所以他昨天赚了1300亿美元。

He he the stock was up 36%, so went up a third. So he made a $130,000,000,000 yesterday.

我知道。

I know.

他们买派拉蒙花了多少钱？50亿还是70亿？

What did they buy Paramount for? 5 or 7?

是的。

Yeah.

这样他们就能用这笔增长的钱买下20个派拉蒙。如果他儿子在外面有20个孩子——这也有可能——

Something So they could go buy 20 Paramounts with this increase. His son he could if he has 20 kids out there, which is a possibility,

我知道一个

one I know

关于拉里·埃里森，他可以对他们所有人说：用盖恩斯传统去买你们自己的派拉蒙吧。

about Larry Ellison, he could say to all of them, go buy your own Paramount with the Gaines tradition.

我认为这实际上会增加可能性。我知道你觉得派拉蒙是小打小闹。我知道你这么想，而且我觉得你是对的。但我认为这会增加他们收购华纳的可能性。他们可能会如你所说，进行整合并榨取价值，或许还能在某些方面实现增长。

I think it'll actually increase the chances. And I know you think it's small ball Paramount. I know you do, and I think you're right. But I think that it'll increase the chance they might buy Warner. They might do something to, as you say, consolidate and milk, and maybe have some growth somewhere along the lines.

这给了他们这样做的实力。我认为你会看到派拉蒙采取一些非常激进的举动。所以，我们拭目以待吧。拉里·埃里森，干得漂亮，拉里·埃里森。就这样。

It gives them the heft to do so. You're gonna see some, I think, very aggressive moves from Paramount. So, you know, we'll see. Larry Ellison, well done, Larry Ellison. There you go.

我有一次和他度过了一个非常奇怪的晚上，没有

I had the strangest evening with him once didn't

通过我的他认识

know by my him

完全不。

at all.

你有过任何

Have you had any

采访我知道。哦对，我采访过他很多次。我们在Code大会上请过他好几次，

interviews I know. With Oh yeah, I've interviewed him many times. We had him at Code several times,

他是什么样的人？我对他完全没概念。

What's like? I have no sense of him.

哦，他非常风趣。我的意思是，有时候他很讨厌，有时候又很有趣。我不愿承认喜欢和他相处，但确实如此。必须说他真的很有意思，因为他的一些观点和我完全不同。又是一个我不同意却非常享受交谈的人，因为他太聪明了——虽然有人会因此抨击我，但我不在乎。

Oh, he's very funny. I mean, sometimes he's awful, sometimes he's funny. I hate to say I enjoy spending time with him, but I do. I have to say he's really interesting because some of his views are not my views at all. Again, someone I don't agree with who I really enjoy talking to because he's so smart, and people will fry me for that, but I don't care.

我在Code和All Things D大会上采访过他几次。有一次是专门聊他的生意，很有意思。后来史蒂夫·乔布斯去世时，我们聊到了史蒂夫。他们是挚友，应该说是他最好的朋友。

I interviewed him several times at Code and All Things D. One was just about his business, and it was interesting. And then when Steve Jobs died, we talked about Steve. He was very close friends. He was his best friend, I would say.

有次我问史蒂夫·乔布斯：拉里·埃里森是你最好的朋友？他说：是啊，我知道这很怪。你看，他们的政治观点等各方面都很不同，却是非常亲密的朋友。他们有着非常相似的——知道为什么

And one time I said to Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison's your best friend? He's like, yeah, I know. It's so weird. Like, you know, they were very different in their political outlook, etcetera, and were very close friends. They had a very similar- know why

你喜欢他。你和他有共鸣。他81岁娶了33岁的姑娘，我懂。

you like him. You relate to him. He's 81, and he married a 33 year old. I get it.

你们真是...他结过很多次婚。他娶过

You guys have been a He married a lot of people. He's married

很多人。

a lot of people.

我知道。我快速讲两个关于埃里森的故事。有次他在台上，后来他搞帆船赛事时，我在旧金山湾赛艇会场附近他的帆船设备处遇见他。整个晚上我们都在聊——他谈论自己的孩子，真的很有趣，大卫和女儿梅根。他说：他们其实挺不错的，但这和我没关系。

I know. I'll tell two very quick stories about Arielson. So he was on stage, and then we when he was doing the sailing thing, I met him over near where his sailing stuff was in the regatta in the San Francisco Bay. And we spent the evening just he was talking about his kids, which was really interesting, David and, his daughter, Megan. And, you know, he was like, they're really actually pretty okay, and it's nothing due to me.

都是母亲的功劳。超级超级有趣。再说一个...我再讲一个拉里·埃里森的故事。他在旧金山有栋房子，为某个活动办了派对，我去了，因为那是太平洋高地区令人惊叹的房子之一。

It's with the mothers. And it super, super interesting. And I'll tell the alright. I'm gonna tell one more Larry Ellison story. So he had this house in San Francisco that he threw a party at for something or other, and I went because it was one of these stunning San Francisco Pacific Heights houses.

而且他并不住在里面，我觉得没有。我想他只是用来办派对的。我喜欢看房子，喜欢看看它们长什么样。所以每次我去参加派对，我都会四处逛逛，看看东西。

And he didn't live in it, don't think. I think he just had it for parties. And I like looking at houses. Like seeing what they look like. And so whenever I go to a party, I wander around and look at things.

就像，我不该那样做。但在你的公寓里我确实会那样，当然。

Like, I shouldn't do that. I do that at your apartment, sure.

是啊，你经常那样

Yeah, you do that a

做。我经常那样。所以我当时在四处逛，我觉得他有以色列的安保。我想那是他雇的。他是本杰明的忠实支持者，我想是本杰明，不是新的那个，还有以色列。

lot. I do that a lot. And so I was wandering around, and I think he has Israeli security. I think that's what he has. He's a big supporter of Benjamin, I think Benjamin, not new, and Israel.

然后他们在楼上抓住了我。他们抓住我，把我带下楼去见他，他看着我说，唉，我就知道会是你。你懂我的意思吗？就像，我一直在四处逛。然后他说，你在干什么？

And they caught me upstairs. They caught me And they bring me downstairs to him, he looked at me and he goes, ugh, I knew it would be you. You know what I mean? Like, was wandering around. And he goes, what were you doing?

我说，我在找妓女和脱衣舞娘的房间。我就开了个那样的玩笑。然后他说，哦，那在地下室，卡拉。然后就像，我只是觉得他很有趣。他是个有趣的人。

And I said, I was looking for the hooker and stripper room. I just said a joke like that. And he goes, oh, that's in the basement, Kara. And it was like, I just think he's funny. He's a funny guy.

他也很糟糕。

He's also awful.

他绝对是，

He's definitely,

刻薄的里奇。

mean Rich.

嗯，不仅如此，他还成了世界上最富有的人。谁想得到？就像，谁预见到这个了？

Well, not only that, he became the richest man in the world. Who thought that? Like, who saw that come?

是啊。总之。他确实也花钱。你知道，他那栋房子看起来像是从日本进口的。为什么不呢？没错，他是个非常有品位的亿万富翁。

Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, he also spends the money. You know, he that house that looks like he imported it from Japan. Why wouldn't Yeah, he's a very stylish billionaire.

他一直都是那个原汁原味的亿万富翁

He was always the original You billionaire

知道他为什么花那种钱还娶了个33岁的吗？对吧。为什么？因为他可以。

know why he spends that kind of money and married a 33 year old? Right. Why? Because he can.

不管怎样，我们会看看情况如何。我们会关注那个TikTok的事情。另外，显然，你刚刚谈到了苹果。本周它推出了最新款iPhone，包括iPhone Air，蒂姆·库克称之为游戏规则改变者。我不同意这一点。

Anyway, anyhow, we'll see what happens. We'll watch for that TikTok thing. Also, obviously, you just talked about Apple. It rolled out its newest iPhones this week, including the iPhone Air, which Tim Cook is calling a game changer. I do not agree with this.

这是有史以来最薄的手机，比现有型号薄了约三分之一，但电池续航有所妥协。苹果还推出了一款新手表以及可以翻译外语的AirPods。那挺酷的。与此同时，AI在发布会上几乎没被提及，这与去年苹果智能成为焦点时相比是一个重大转变。让我说说这款背面有个凸起的iPhone，我见过它。

It's the thinnest phone ever, about a third slimmer than current models, though there are trade offs in battery life. Apple also unveiled a new watch model as well as AirPods that can translate foreign languages. That was pretty cool. Meanwhile, AI barely came up with the event, a big shift from last year when Apple intelligence took center stage. Let me say this iPhone with the bump on the back, I saw it.

我在今早的节目活动上遇到了Eddie Q，他给我看了，我当时就想，它背面有个凸起。是个大凸起。它会晃动。就像，手机很薄，但有个大凸起，我看到人们都在网上热议这件事。而且它不…我不想买它。

I ran into Eddie Q at this morning show event, and he showed it to me, and I was like, it has a bump on the back. It's a big bump. It wobbles. Like, it's skinny, but then it has this big bump, which I make people are making they're making a people are talking about it online a lot. It's also it doesn't I I don't wanna buy it.

我得说，我不知道为什么。也许我会买17，但这款超薄的不吸引我，因为有那个凸起。我不知道该说什么。总之，从你看到的来看，你觉得它是游戏规则改变者吗？

I have to say, I don't know why. Maybe I'll buy the 17, but the skinny one is not attractive because it has the bump. I don't I don't know what to say. Anyway, do you think it's a game changer from what you saw?

我只是坐在这里想，谋杀案发生的第二天，我能不能粗俗一点？

I'm just sitting here thinking, am I allowed to be crude the day after a murder?

可以。说吧。

Yes. Go ahead.

随便吧。我的意思是，好吧。那个被库克称为游戏规则改变者的发布，我会称之为止痛药式的手活。就像是，嗯。好吧。

Whatever. I mean, okay. The announcement, what Kirk called a game changer, I would call a hand job in an Advil. It was like, yeah. Alright.

我不

I don't

那很好。

That's good.

是的，不错。有人真的在乞求一款更薄的手机吗？

Yeah. Fine. Was anyone begging for a thinner phone?

如果是一款更薄、功能强大且没有摄像头凸起的手机，当然，为什么不呢？

If it was a thinner phone with capabilities and without the bump, sure, why not?

最令人兴奋的是AirPods的实时语言翻译功能，而且它已在其他平台上可用。我认为AirPods是过去十年中最被低估的科技产品。实际上，它们甚至算不上科技产品，而是历史上最普及、昂贵、高利润的首饰。人们现在整天戴着一副名为AirPods的耳环四处走动，价格300美元，可能成本只有110美元。

Most exciting thing, and it's available on other platforms, is real time language translation for the AirPods. I think the AirPods are the most underrated tech product of the last ten years. I think essentially they're not even a tech product. They're the most ubiquitous, expensive, high margin piece of jewelry in history. People are now roaming around full time with a pair of earrings called an AirPods that cost $300 and probably a $110.

我昨晚把它们拆成了四份。

I quartered them last night.

是啊，我现在到处都能看到人们戴着它们。但这暗示的是，根据我们最近的讨论，他们将受到审视的是：过去十年间，乔布斯是建设者，他不相信股票回购。

Yeah. I just leave men now. They're just everywhere. The what this signals though and where they will get scrutiny per our most recent conversation is that over the last decade, essentially, Jobs is Jobs is a builder. He did not believe in share buybacks.

他想积累巨额现金储备，以确保公司持久稳固。这样，如果他们愿意，就可以大胆尝试，无论是收购还是在某些产品开发上深入投入。蒂姆·库克是运营者。顺便说一句，你得佩服蒂姆·库克，他把公司从3000亿美元带到了3万亿美元。

He wanted to amass a huge cash hoard and then such that they were durable and enduring. And if they wanted to, they could take big swings, either acquisitions or go very deep after certain product development. Tim Cook is an operator. And by the way, you gotta give it to Tim Cook. He's taken the company from 300,000,000,000 to 3,000,000,000,000.

问题是，至今那七八千亿美元的股票回购，他们已经回购了约40%的流通股，这意味着在25年的时间里，他们实际上是在将公司私有化。问题是，当产品发布如此平淡时，他们是否已经到了应该更积极、更大胆一些，利用那些惊人的现金流，进行更多大胆尝试的地步？因为昨天没有任何大动作，没有什么令人眼前一亮的东西。这就是区别所在。

The question is, have those seven or eight hundred billion dollars in share buybacks to date, they have bought back approximately 40% of their outstanding shares, meaning over a twenty five year period, they're effectively taking the company private. The question is, when you have these meh product announcements, have they gotten to a point where they, quite frankly, should be a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more promiscuous, and be spending some of that unbelievable cash generation and taking more big swings? Because yesterday, there were no big swings. There was nothing that compelling. And this is the difference.

事后诸葛亮容易，但我们不妨说说。埃里森几年前的所作所为的区别在于，他说，天啊，AI是千载难逢的代际技术创新。我要从股票回购公司转变为研发公司，并在这里大胆一搏。结果，昨天股价上涨了30-38%。

It's easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but let's do it. The difference between what Ellison did was a couple years ago, he said, oh my god. AI is a once in a lifetime generational tech innovation. I am shifting from being a share buyback company to an r and d company, and I'm gonna take a massive swing here. And it became and the stock was up 3038% yesterday.

苹果基本上已经表明自己是一家成熟公司。而苹果作为成熟公司的问题在于，其股票目前的交易方式并不像一家成熟公司，反而像一家成长型公司，市盈率高达33倍。因此，正如我现在所做的，会有很多事后诸葛亮式的质疑——坦率地说，蒂姆·库克是否未能跟上同行步伐，因为他决定让公司进入某种‘养老状态’，却还要继续这样下去。

Apple has basically said we are a mature company. And the problem with Apple being a mature company is that its stock right now does not trade as if it's a mature company. It trades as if it's a growth company at a p of 33. So where there will be a lot of second guessing as I'm doing now is Tim Cook, quite frankly, not keeping up with his peers because he's decided we're gonna go into kind of a rest home. We're gonna continue.

ICON通过施压要求股票回购和分红开启了这一趋势。苹果两样都做了。但遗憾的是，他们不再像乔布斯时代那样进行大刀阔斧的创新了。

ICON started this by putting pressure on them for share buybacks and a dividend. They did both. And unfortunately, they aren't taking the big swings they used to under the job's tenure.

是啊。这款手机，我觉得不行。真的不行。我的意思是，我会等折叠手机。我对折叠手机很感兴趣。

Yeah. This phone, I'm like, no. Like, no. I mean, I'll wait for the Fold phone. I'm interested in the Fold phone.

那是肯定的。那种手机都快变成iPad了。我会关注一下，但肯定会很重。说实话，我看不出有什么 compelling 的理由需要因为这些功能换手机。顺便说一句，我其实很喜欢换手机。

That's for sure. That kind of becomes an iPad. I'm gonna look at that, but it's gonna be heavy. Like, I just don't see a compelling need to change my phone with these things. And I like changing phones, by the way.

我们拭目以待吧。比较搞笑的是，有人在社交媒体上开玩笑说该给蒂姆·库克准备护膝了，这指的是上周发布会的事情。

We'll see where it goes. One of the funnier ones was people made social media was also joking about eye knee pads for Tim Cook, referring to last week's events.

来看个数据：过去十年间，苹果在股票回购上的支出比研发多出了5000亿美元。

Well, here's a stat. Over the last decade, Apple has spent $500,000,000,000 more on share buybacks than on R and D.

太疯狂了。

That's crazy.

结果呢？他们的产品现在感觉就...挺一般的。

And what do you know? Their products are feeling kind of meh.

确实一般。不得不说，有些人认为iPhone上的那个凸起是在预示接下来会推出某种眼镜设备。所以这像是一种信号。据说里面的技术能非常优雅地应用于眼镜，但我们拭目以待吧。

Meh. I have to say, some people think the bump on the iPhone is presaging some glasses, some sort of glasses thing that's happening next. So it's sort of a signal. What's in there apparently would work quite elegantly apparently with glasses, but we'll see. We'll see.

蒂姆，给我们看看真正让人惊艳的产品吧。不得不说这次没有。接下来我们快速谈谈特朗普总统为杰弗里·爱泼斯坦五十岁生日纪念册投稿的事。显然，查理·科克的谋杀案让这事热度稍减，但之前关注度很高。据此前报道，特朗普给爱泼斯坦的信中，在一个手绘的女性身体图案内藏有一段 cryptic 的对话。

Let's see let's see some products that really wow us, Tim. I have to say this didn't. Next up, let's talk about very quickly president Trump's contributions to Jeffrey Epstein's fiftieth birthday book. Obviously, the murder of Charlie Cook has sort of pushed that off, but it was getting a lot of attention. As previously reported, there was a letter from Trump to Epstein featuring a cryptic conversation within a hand drawn woman's body.

我会说那看起来像是一个十几岁女孩的身体。还有一张超大支票的照片，似乎是特朗普签名的，旁边有爱泼斯坦的备注，写着：很早就展现出对金钱和女人的天赋，并以22,000美元的价格将一个完全贬值的女人卖给了特朗普。当被问及时，特朗普总统称这是一个已经了结的问题。你知道，我认为查理·柯克的情况可能会把它挤出头条，但与此同时，我仍然认为爱泼斯坦这件事有持久的影响力。托马斯·马西看起来确实有足够的票数来迫使文件公布。

I would say a teenage girl's body is what it looked like. There was also a photo of an oversized check appearing to be signed by DJ Trump with a notes Epstein saying, showed early talents with money and women and had sold a fully depreciate woman to Trump for $22,000. President Trump is calling it a dead issue when asked. You know, I think probably this Charlie Kirk situation is gonna push it out of the headlines, but at the same time, I still think this Epstein thing has staying power. They're really Thomas Massey looks like he has the numbers to force a release.

事实上，柯克在他有点退缩之前说过，应该——我当时看了一个演讲，他说应该向公众全面、无删节地公布。所以我不知道你怎么想。我认为特朗普只是假装他不认识那些画，然后他们给他看了那些画。他说这本生日留言簿不存在。但它确实存在。

And in fact, Kirk, before he sort of went backwards a little bit, had said there should be I was watching a speech where he said it should be full and full release of unredacted release, to the public. So I don't know what you thought. I thought it just Trump pretended he didn't draw, and then they showed him drawings. He he said this birthday book didn't exist. It exists.

他说他没写过信。但看起来像是他写的。我认为说它是伪造的想法有点荒谬。在那么久以前，有人就知道他会当总统，然后决定搞一个假东西？这似乎很荒谬。

He said he didn't write a letter. It looks like he wrote a letter. I think the idea that it's fake is kind of ridiculous. Way back then, someone knew he was gonna be president and decided to do a fake thing. This seems ridiculous.

我认为他做了，他就应该道歉，并保证不再那样做。而他们却在加倍强调这是骗局之类的。我仍然认为这对他非常不利。这依然具有破坏性。你怎么看？

I think he did it, and he should just say he was sorry, and he won't do that. And they're doubling down on hoax and whatever. I still think it's very damaging to him. This remains damaging. What did you think?

嗯，问题在于，有没有一条红线？比如，我们知道他是个富家子弟。好吧。这是不喜欢他的一个理由。我们知道他不是个很好的商人。

Well, the question is, is there a red line? Like, we knew he was a rich kid. Okay. That's a reason not to like him. We knew he was not a very good businessman.

我们知道谁让公司破产。我们知道他不付分包商钱。我们知道他被指控性侵。我们知道他是个叛乱分子。我的意思是，而现在似乎到处都有证据表明，他至少与一个已知且已被定罪的恋童癖者为伍。

We knew who took companies bankrupt. We knew he didn't pay subcontractors. We knew that he was accused of sexual assault. We know he's an insurrectionist. I mean, is and now there seems to be evidence everywhere that he was at a at a minimum cohorting with a known and convicted pedophile.

而认为这是伪造的说法，嗯，好吧。你的意思是说21年前有人闯入爱泼斯坦的庄园，决定陷害当时还是民主党人的总统，想着等他当上总统时，这会让他难堪？我的意思是，这逻辑根本说不通。我喜欢代表莫斯科维茨，我想是他在某次国会听证会上说的：你们这些人为什么不——这太离谱了——我们为什么不请来笔迹鉴定专家，让他们对此发表意见。

And the notion that this is a forgery is, well, okay. You mean somebody twenty one years ago broke into the Epstein estate and decided to frame the president who at that time was a Democrat thinking when he's president, this will embarrass him. I mean, it's just like the logic the math ain't mathing here. And I liked what, representative Moskowitz, I think, said in the, one of the congressional hearings said, why don't you guys, this is outrageous. Why don't we why let's move to bring in, forgery experts and have them opine on this.

我的意思是，整件事简直就像……到底要到什么时候我们才会发现这家伙简直就是黑暗君主？我的意思是，看看这些事情，每次你怀疑他做了什么，结果发现都是真的，而且似乎无关紧要。问题是，这是不是那条红线？我确信——我今晚要上伦敦时报电台——我确信他来英国的唯一原因（我昨晚输入AI问了）。

I mean, the whole thing is just sort of a at what point are we gonna find find out the guy is literally the dark lord? I mean, what gets look at the things every time you suspect it of something, we find out it's true, and it doesn't seem to matter. The question is, is this is this the, you know, is this the red line? And I am convinced that I'm going on the Times of London radio tonight. I'm convinced the only reason he's supposed to come to The UK I typed into AI last night.

我问AI：如果我是总统，想不让爱泼斯坦上新闻，请列出那些能将爱泼斯坦每48小时挤出新闻周期的行动和政策。它给了我一个他正在做的一切事情的剧本。有些他已经做了，有些我认为他打算做。但他来这里是要谈论言论自由，我认为这很荒谬。但他所做的一切，都是为了把爱泼斯坦挤出新闻周期。

Name if I were a president trying to keep Epstein out of the news, please name actions and policies that would push Epstein out of the news cycle every forty eight hours. And it gave me a playbook for everything he's doing. Some of which he's already done, some of which he I think he's he's going to do. But he's coming over here to talk about free speech, which I think is ridiculous. But anything that pushes, Epstein out of the news cycle is what he's doing.

但是，我不知道。我没有……我认为这件事，感觉像是唯一一件真正粘在这家伙身上的事情。

But I I don't know. I don't have a I think this is it feels like this is the one thing that is sticking to the guy.

因为他是他的朋友。就像，我现在不明白的是，我完全不知道发生了什么。我根本不知道他是否犯了什么错，但为什么不直接说，唉，我当时判断力太差了。我非常抱歉。

Because he was a friend of his. Like, what I don't get now look, I have no idea what happened. I don't have any idea if he's guilty of anything, but why not just say, ugh, I was so it was such bad judgment. I'm so sorry.

粗俗、愚蠢、更衣室谈话。

Profane, stupid, locker room talk.

亚历克斯，那太蠢了。更衣室谈话。是的。这招上次管用了。我不该写这个，而且那是在大家真正知道之前，我当时也不知道。

Alex, that was dumb. Locker room talk. Yeah. That worked last time. And I shouldn't have written this, and it was before anybody really knew, and I didn't know.

我当时没注意。就直接说，唉，我很抱歉。那太蠢了。就像，盖茨就是这么做的。就像每个经历过这种事的人，林顿也这么说过。

I wasn't paying attention. And just say, ugh, I'm so sorry. That was so dumb. Like, that's what Gates did. That's what like, everyone who's been there had Linton said it.

而且这并不意味着，我的意思是，这种事会粘着他们，但不像这次。这次是……我知道他是总统，但那幅画……我绝对认为是他画的。我看了看，我就想，没错。

And it doesn't I mean, it sort of sticks to them, but not like this. This is and I know he's president, but just the drawing was so I absolutely think he drew that. I looked at it and I was like, yes.

当我第一次看到它时，关于它据称是阴毛、据称是一个未成年女孩的一切，我甚至都没看懂。我看了看。我觉得……最令人毛骨悚然的是，他显然雇了创意人员。他组织资源把这东西拼凑起来。这不像朋友之间一个愚蠢的便条，那只是判断失误。

When I first saw it, everything about it supposedly being pubic hair, supposed to be an underage girl, I didn't even get it. I looked at it. I'm like and the thing the creepiest thing about it is he clearly hired creatives. He organized resources to put this thing together. It wasn't like a stupid note between friends where you you an error in judgment.

他召集了创意专业人士，说，这就是我想要的。这就是我的想法。是的。然后他们反馈回来一个青春期前女孩的隐晦图像，而你的签名将是阴毛，然后他说，宾果。这正是我想表达的意思。

He gathered creative professionals around and said, this is what I want. This is what I'm thinking. Yeah. And then they came back with a subtle image of a prepubescent girl, and your signature will be pubic hairs, and he went, bingo. That's exactly what I'm trying to get across.

现在……现在把它塑封起来，装裱起来。等等。这个怎么样？我们应该用哪种纸？你能看出这里面是经过了真正思考的。

Now now laminate it, frame it. Wait. What about this? What kind of paper should we use? You could tell that there was real thought that went into this.

经过了思考。我同意。斯科特在我生日时也送了我一个类似的东西，大家，只是让你们知道一下。好吧。我同意。

Thought into it. I agree. Scott sent me a similar thing for my birthday, everybody, just so you know. Okay. I agree.

总之，唐纳德·特朗普，无论发生什么，这事都会粘着你不放。无论你做什么，它都会……它都会……它都会留在你的记录上。好了，斯科特。我们稍微休息一下。回来之后，我们将讨论卡玛拉·哈里斯的火爆新书，这本书在所有这些新闻中有点被淹没了。

Anyway, it's gonna stick to you, Donald Trump, no matter what happens. It's gonna be on your it's it's it's gonna be on your record no matter what you do. Alright, Scott. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Kamala Harris's sizzling upcoming book, which is sort of getting lost here with all the news.

本节目由HIMSS赞助。当涉及你的金钱、目标和未来时，拥有选择和自由至关重要。但在医疗保健领域，却常常感觉过于刻板——千篇一律的治疗方案、预设的剂量、毫无灵活性。这就像试图用固定支出做预算，却没有任何替代方案。

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节目由Upwork赞助。招聘不应是麻烦事，也不应成为预算负担。Upwork正是您的解决方案——一站式寻找、雇佣和支付顶级自由人才，省时控费全搞定。各阶段企业都依靠Upwork完成任务并获得更大灵活性。

Support for the show comes from Upwork. Hiring shouldn't be a hassle nor should it be a train on your budget. That's why there is Upwork. Upwork is your one stop shop to find, hire, and pay top freelance talent, saving you time and keeping costs in check all in one place. Companies at every stage turn to Upwork to get things done and find more flexibility.

您可以通过全球人才市场为关键项目配备IT、网页开发、AI设计、行政支持、营销等领域的顶尖人才。在Upwork发布职位完全免费且操作简单：可浏览自由职业者档案、获得职位描述撰写帮助甚至预约咨询。随后与懂您的自由职业者对接，雇佣他们推动工作进展。Upwork以行业最低费率让整个流程更轻松经济。

You can staff key projects and initiatives by accessing a global marketplace filled with top talent and IT, web development AI design, admin support marketing, and more. Posting a job on Upwork is super simple, and there's no cost to join. You can browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation. From there, you connect with freelancers that get you, and you can hire them to help you move your work forward. Upwork makes the entire process easier and more affordable with industry low fees.

今日发布职位，明日即可通过Upwork完成雇佣。立即访问upwork.com免费发布职位（即upwork.com），连接顶尖人才助力业务增长。请注意是upwork.com。

Post a job today and hire tomorrow with Upwork. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw0rk.com. Upwork.com.

作为创始人，您正快速推进产品市场匹配、下一轮融资或首笔大企业交易。但随着AI加速初创企业的开发部署，安全要求也更快到来且标准空前提高。及时做好安全合规能推动增长，延误则可能阻碍发展。Vanta作为信任管理平台，帮助企业自动化超过35种框架的安全合规（包括SOC2、ISO27001、HIPAA等），通过深度集成和为快速团队打造的自动化工作流，助您快速达到审计要求，并在模型、基础设施和客户演进时通过持续监控保持安全。

As a founder, you're moving fast towards product market fit, your next round, or your first big enterprise deal. But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are also coming in faster, and those expectations are higher than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long. Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate security and compliance across more than 35 frameworks like SOC two, ISO twenty seven zero zero one, HIPAA, and more. With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams, Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure, infrastructure, and customers evolve.

这就是为什么Langcheng、Ryder和Cursor等快速成长的初创公司都信赖Vanta从零构建可扩展的合规基础。立即访问vanta.com/vox，通过Vanta初创计划节省1000美元，加入已有超1万家雄心勃勃企业共同 scaling。限时优惠请访问vanta.com/vox。

That's why fast growing startups like Langcheng, Ryder, and Cursor have all trusted Vanta to build a scalable compliance foundation from the start. Go to vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000 ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 for a limited time.

Scott，我们继续新闻播报：《大西洋月刊》刊登了前副总统卡玛拉·哈里斯即将出版回忆录《107天》的节选，内容相当劲爆。哈里斯在书中表示，拜登总统决定再次参选是出于鲁莽，并称这种决定不应交由个人 ego 主导。她还指出总统团队曾煽动关于她工作表现的负面报道，且经常拒绝为她辩护——这一点确实属实。

Scott, we're back with more news, an excerpt from former vice president Kamala Harris's upcoming book, a hundred and seven days, was published in the Atlantic, and it is spicy. In it, Harris says recklessness allowed president Biden to make the decision, to run again. She also said the decision should not have been left to an individual's ego. The former vice president also said the president's staff fueled negative stories about her performance and often refused to defend her. That is true.

我当时就实时注意到了这些情况。您怎么看？顺便预告：我将在两周后华盛顿的现场活动中采访她，非常期待这次对话。

I always saw that in real time. You know? What do you think? I mean, I'm gonna interview her, just so you know, at a live event in Washington in two weeks, I think. I'm excited to talk to her.

这本书也是在一位非常优秀的作家帮助下完成的，她也是我的朋友杰拉尔丁·布鲁克斯，她同样是普利策奖得主等等。她有点像走阿加西的路子，聘请了一位非常出色的写手。所以你怎么看？她真的这么做了。我没想到她会，但她确实这么做了。

This book was also written with the help of a very good author who's also a friend of mine, Geraldine Brooks, who is also a Pulitzer Prize winner and everything else. She's sort of going the Agassi route by hiring a really great writer. So thoughts? She really went there. I did not think she would, but there she did.

好吧，谢谢你的废话。我对哈里斯副总统的感觉就像对那些离任后才长出骨气的共和党人一样。是的，我们现在不需要你来决定这是鲁莽的。

Well, okay. Thanks, captain obvious. I feel the same way about vice president Harris as I feel about all these Republicans who grow testicles after they leave office. Yeah. We don't need you to decide it's reckless now.

如果你展现了我们对总统所期望的领导力，你应该走进去说，我认为你不应该再次参选，我也不会支持你再次参选。也许你不指定我，没关系。但我对国家负有责任义务，你不应该当总统。这他妈太荒谬了。

Had you demonstrated the leadership capabilities we hope from a president, you should have walked in and said, I don't think you should run again, and I'm not gonna support you to run again. Maybe you don't anoint me. Fine. But I have an obligation duty to the a duty to the country, and you should not be president. This is fucking ridiculous.

她近距离亲眼目睹了，但就像他身边的许多人一样，她决定吹着口哨，你知道，装作没事发生。

And she saw up close and personal, but instead, like a lot of people around him, she decided to whistle, you know, whistle past the graveyard.

她确实在书里谈到了这一点。就像，我觉得在这种情境下，每个人都会说，这取决于吉尔和乔。对吧？你明白我的意思吗？就像即使特朗普有类似情况，也没人会做什么。

She does talk about it in the thing. It's like, I think there is, when you're in those situations, everyone's like, well, it's up to Jill and Joe. Right? You know what I mean? Like, even if same thing with Trump if there's something, and no one will do anything.

就像，那种环境造就了过度谨慎、非常沉默的人，说这取决于他。就像，甚至纽森也这么做了。他们都这么做了。纽森也这么做了。民主党所有人都是这样。

Like, those environments create overly cautious, very reticent people saying it's up to him. Like, even, you know, Newsom did it. They all did it. Newsom also did it. So did, like, all the Democratic

可能更值得称赞的是众议员迪恩·菲利普斯，他很早就说，我参选是因为我认为拜登总统不适合再次竞选。他很快受到了严厉批评并被边缘化。虽然没有获得太多支持，但他早期站出来确实值得一些肯定。我愿意支持那家伙。菲利普斯众议员？

Someone who probably deserves, more credit was, representative Dean Phillips, who very early said, I'm running because I don't think president Biden is fit to run again. And he got pretty swiftly pilloried and swept away. Didn't get a lot of traction, but he does deserve some credit for coming out early. I'd like to roll with that dude. Representative Phillips?

你见过他。我们在民主党全国委员会见过他。他过来找我们。

You met him. We met him at the DNC. He came over to us.

他上过我的播客节目并表态了。实际上，他看起来是个好人。听着，如果两个播客主持人在一年半前就能说他他妈太老了，副总统和他身边的人应该对白宫或民主党理想有足够的忠诚度，意识到是时候让老爷子拿块金表退休了。

He came on my pod and came out. Actually, he seemed like a nice man. Look. If two podcasters can say a year and a half before he's too fucking old, the vice president and the people around him should have enough fidelity to the White House or Democratic ideals to realize pop it's time for pop pop to to get a gold watch and retire.

我知道。我是说，但是你呢？我能想象那种环境。

I know. I mean But you And I imagine that environment.

每个人都参与进来了。还记得我们收到的那些邮件吗？报名参加。你根本没理解任务要求。我当时就想，天哪。

Everyone engaged in it. You remember the emails we were getting? Sign up. You don't understand the assignment. I was like, oh my goodness.

你不觉得你不觉得全世界都看到了吗？好吧，我们

You don't think you don't think the world sees this? Well, we

必须阻止特朗普。我就想，不是这样。这样阻止不了特朗普。他就算突然死了，我们也完蛋了。你懂我意思吗？

need to stop Trump. I'm like, not like this. This isn't gonna stop Trump. He's gonna fall over dead, and then we're fucked. You know what I mean?

就像

Like

是的。我不看。我不...我认为副总统...我之前说过。我认为副总统在美国环境下采用英国式选举形式，她是被亏待了。而拜登总统、最高法院大法官金斯伯格、参议员范斯坦都玷污了自己的遗产，因为他们让自恋凌驾于国家利益之上。

Yeah. I don't look. I don't I I think the vice president I've said this before. I I think the vice president given a UK style election format in a an American environment, she was shortchanged. And, president Biden, supreme court justice or justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, senator Feinstein have stained their legacy because they let their narcissism outweigh what was right for the country.

毫无疑问。说实话，对她来说也是，你不能因为一个人80岁了就责怪他80岁。他的家人看不清楚，因为那是他们的父亲和丈夫。但他身边的人，布林肯国务卿、哈里斯副总统，他们都应该和他坐下来谈。最后，值得称赞的是，我认为是舒默参议员和众议院名誉议长佩洛西。

Full stop. And and for her also, quite frankly, you don't you can't blame an 80 year old because he's 80. And his family, which can't see clearly because that's their dad and their husband. But the people around him, secretary Blinken, vice president Harris, they all should have sat him down. And finally, to his credit, I think it was senator Schumer and speaker Emerita Pelosi.

佩洛西。他是自愿退出的。

Pelosi. He did an exit voluntarily.

不是说佩洛西。我觉得是佩洛西促成的。

Not talking to Pelosi. I think it was Pelosi who did it.

因为她进去说：我很抱歉。我们都老了。我们都该回家了。如果你不宣布退出竞选，每三天我就会让一个民主党人宣布不再支持你。他本来不想走。

Because she went in there and said, I'm really sorry. We're both old. We both need to go home. And if you don't announce you're getting out of the race, every three days, I'm gonna have someone, a Democrat, announce they're not supporting you. He didn't wanna leave.

这不是他的决定。据说他经历了所有这些反复思考。但所有这些思考都不是关于他把国家搞得多糟，而是关于如果留下来我能不能赢？这些人的自恋啊，这又回到了我们之前谈论枪手之前的话题。

This was not his decision. Supposedly, he's going through all this rumination and contemplation. But all this rumination and contemplation isn't about how badly he fucked the country. It's about it's about could I have won if I'd stayed in? The narcissism here of these folks and, it goes back to what we were talking about before the shooter.

人们需要护栏。我所说的护栏是指那些有胆量和信誉的人，能坐在你面前说，不。你错了。你必须停止这个。你必须停止这个。

People need guardrails. What I mean by guardrails is people who have the balls and the credibility to sit in front of you and go, no. You're wrong. You have to stop this. You have to stop this.

你没有在思考。你没有清晰地思考。

You're not thinking. You're not thinking clearly.

我毫不怀疑他们中没有人那样做。没有人，包括她。所以我该问她什么？给我一个问题

I have no doubt that none of them did that. None of none including her. And so what should I ask her? Give me a question for

问她。十年后，如果有人能对你说，你可以成为最高法院大法官或被征召再次竞选总统，门一或门二，你更愿意选哪个？

her. In ten years, would you if someone could say to you in ten years, you can be a supreme court justice or be drafted to run for president again, doors one or two, what would you rather do?

哦，好问题。我喜欢这个。这是个好问题。

Oh, good one. I like that. That's a good one.

而且，坦率地说，你是否真的因为没能……哦天啊。我会像安德森·库珀的制作人一样在你耳边唠叨。

And also, quite frankly, did you really let down the country by not have oh god. I'll be there in your ear like a producer with Anderson Cooper.

是啊。你也绝不会问她。我有胆量问她。你会说，哦，哦，不。你本人

Yeah. You'd also never ask her. I'm I have the guts to ask her. You'd be like, oh, Oh, no. You're much

比我友善多了。你本人比我友善多了。

nicer in person than me. You're much nicer in person than me.

不，但在台上我会问她。你知道我会问她的。

No, but on stage I'll ask her. You know I'll ask her.

嗯，能蒙混过关。大家都会说，就是她。卡拉又来了。

Well, can away with it. Everyone's like, that's her. There goes that Kara.

那就是卡拉。那个伶牙俐齿的卡拉。再说一次，她是不是很有魅力？不过确实，我觉得整个体制都这么做了。但我确实喜欢她还是写了这本书。

Goes that Kara. That sassy Kara. Once again, and isn't she charming? But yeah, I think the whole establishment did it. But I do like that she wrote it anyway.

我有点觉得，很好，直接告诉我们发生了什么，然后我们就不再犯。好吧。她本不必这么做，但她做了。我希望

I'm kind of like, good, just tell us what happened, and then we don't do it again. All right. She didn't have to do this, and she did it. I wish

她想要尝试写的都是书。它们都是

all she was want trying write to books. They're all

我知道，但我在告诉

I know, but I'm telling

你，可能并不意味着她想借此再次被提名为总统。他们都写书。大家都需要谋生。她拿到了两三百万美元的预付款来写书，她希望让它有趣，这样人们才会读。好吧。

you, probably doesn't means do it she this wants to be drafted to be president again. They all write books. They get a big everyone needs to make a living. She got 2 or $3,000,000 advance to write a book, and she wants to make it interesting so people read it. And okay.

哇。揭露那是鲁莽行为。好吧。废话。废话。

Wow. What a revelation that it was reckless. Okay. No shit. No shit.

而现在这并没有帮助，副总统

And now that doesn't help, vice president

斯科特的评论。废话，夏洛克。

Scott's review. No shit, Sherlock.

废话。

No shit.

真的吗？真的吗？

Really? Really?

真的吗？他待了那么久不是正确的选择？

Really? It wasn't the right move for him to stay as long as he did?

这太鲁莽了。

It was reckless.

哇。

Wow.

总之，我们还有一个短暂的休息时间。预测环节之后我们马上回来。

Anyway, we got one more quick break. We'll be back from predictions.

作为创始人，你正快速朝着产品市场匹配、下一轮融资或首个大企业交易迈进。但随着AI加速初创公司的构建和发布速度，安全预期也来得更快，且这些预期比以往任何时候都更高。正确处理安全和合规可以解锁增长，但如果等待太久则可能阻碍发展。Vanta是一个信任管理平台，帮助企业自动化超过35个框架的安全与合规，如SOC2、ISO27001、HIPAA等。凭借为快速发展的团队打造的深度集成和自动化工作流，Vanta让你快速做好审计准备，并在你的模型、基础设施和客户不断演变时，通过持续监控保持安全。

As a founder, you're moving fast towards product market fit, your next round, or your first big enterprise deal. But with AI accelerating how quickly startups build and ship, security expectations are also coming in faster, and those expectations are higher than ever. Getting security and compliance right can unlock growth or stall it if you wait too long. Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate security and compliance across more than 35 frameworks like SOC two, ISO twenty seven zero zero one, HIPAA, and more. With deep integrations and automated workflows built for fast moving teams, Vanta gets you audit ready fast and keeps you secure with continuous monitoring as your models, infrastructure, and customers evolve.

这就是为什么像Langcheng、Ryder和Cursor这样快速成长的初创公司都信任Vanta，从一开始就构建可扩展的合规基础。立即访问vanta.com/vox，通过Vanta for Startups计划节省1000美元，并加入已与Vanta共同扩展的超过10,000家雄心勃勃的公司。限时优惠，访问vanta.com/vox即可节省1000美元。

That's why fast growing startups like Langcheng, Ryder, and Cursor have all trusted Vanta to build a scalable compliance foundation from the start. Go to vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 today through the Vanta for Startups program and join over 10,000 ambitious companies already scaling with Vanta. That's vanta.com/vox to save $1,000 for a limited time.

本节目由SoFi小企业贷款赞助。如果你经营一家小企业，你需要资金来寻找新机会并实现增长。为此，SoFi的小企业贷款市场是你新的最佳伙伴。SoFi的市场是一个快速的数字解决方案。通过一次简单搜索，SoFi能在几分钟内为你匹配经过审查的供应商。

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访问sofi.com/voxpod，几分钟内查看你的选项。

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你可能已经在使用AI工具来优化邮件和简化工作流。为什么不看看它是否能优化你的投资呢？是时候试试public.com了。通过Public，你可以构建一个包含股票、债券、期权等的多资产组合。你还可以获得行业领先的收益率，比如你的现金可以赚取4.1%的年化收益率，且无费用或最低要求。

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