一场前往迷幻蘑菇巨型教堂的旅程

我们有个大消息要宣布。

We've got some big news.

《Planet Money》将开启巡回活动，推广我们的第一本书。

Planet Money is going on tour to promote our first ever book.

这本书将在四月出版。

It comes out in April.

我们将在大约十几个城市举行庆祝活动。

We'll be celebrating in about a dozen cities.

在库存允许的情况下，您的门票将附赠一款限量版手提袋。

There's a limited edition tote bag included with your ticket while supplies last.

详情、日期以及如何购票，请访问 planetmoneybook.com。

Details, dates, and how to get your ticket at planetmoneybook.com.

您可以在节目笔记中点击链接。

You can click the link in the show notes.

提醒一下，本集节目包含几个脏话。

Just a heads up, this episode contains a couple swear words.

这是来自NPR的Planet Money。

This is Planet Money from NPR.

正如每个市场都有先行者，每种宗教都有其殉道者——那些愿意为信仰冒一切风险的人。

Just as every market has its first movers, every religion has its martyrs, the people willing to risk everything for what they believe.

你知道的，圣女贞德、约瑟夫·史密斯、耶稣。

You know, Joan of Arc, Joseph Smith, Jesus.

当我最近得知一个教会的领袖可能兼具这两种特质时，我就知道我必须去朝圣一趟。

And when I recently found out about a church with a leader who might be a little bit of both, I knew I had to make a pilgrimage.

于是我搭飞机前往加利福尼亚州奥克兰，拜访一个叫Zydore教会的地方。

So I hopped on a plane to Oakland, California to visit a place called the Zydore Church.

嗨。

Hey.

你在找Zydore吗？

You looking for Zydore?

我在找Zydore。

I'm looking for Zydore.

就是这儿吗？

Is this it?

哦，这就是Zydore教堂。

Oh, this is Zydore.

从街上看，你可能根本不知道这里有一座教堂。

From the street, you might not even know the church was there.

它藏在一个不起眼的仓库里，周围都是汽车修理店和联排房屋。

It's sort of hidden inside a nondescript warehouse surrounded by auto shops and row houses.

你一走进去，就会遇到一位友好的持枪保安，并被引导通过金属探测器。

As soon as you walk in, you're greeted by a friendly armed security guard and ushered through a metal detector.

如今，Zaedor里面没有长椅了，但这里有两台自动取款机。

You won't find any pews inside of Zaedor these days, but there are two ATMs on the premises.

就在其中一台取款机旁边，我见到了这座教堂的创始人兼负责人——戴夫·霍奇斯。

And it's next to one of them where I meet the man who founded and runs the church, a guy named Dave Hodges.

嗨。

Hey.

我想您就是戴夫牧师。

Pastor Dave, I presume.

是的。

Yeah.

很高兴见到您。

Good to meet you.

很高兴能亲自见到您。

Good to meet you too in the flesh.

戴夫牧师身材高大，留着长长的马尾辫，灰白相间的山羊胡，戴着金属框眼镜。

Pastor Dave is a big guy with a long ponytail, salt and pepper goatee, wireframe glasses.

看起来有点像本杰明·富兰克林，只不过他去了家科技公司上班。

Looks a bit like Benjamin Franklin, if he got a job in a corporate IT department.

我带您稍微参观一下这里。

Give you a little tour of the place.

这地方真不像我以前去过的任何教堂。

It doesn't really look like any church I've been inside of before.

是的，大概不是。

Yeah, probably not.

墙壁上没有描绘圣徒行神迹的彩绘玻璃，而是布满了奇幻的五彩壁画。

Instead of stained glass depictions of saints performing miracles, the walls are covered in a series of trippy technicolor murals.

有一群迷幻的鲸鱼群。

There's a psychedelic whale pod.

有沉思的猿猴抚摸着下巴。

There are contemplative apes stroking their chins.

这里感觉更像一个星际保龄球馆，而不是一个圣所。

It feels more like a galactic bowling alley than a sanctuary.

几乎你目光所及之处，都是巨大的蘑菇图像。

And almost everywhere you look, there are giant images of mushrooms.

这是因为齐多教会不是一个基督教教会。

That is because Zydore Church is not a Christian church.

它也不是犹太教或印度教的。

It's not Jewish or Hindu.

Zydore是一座蘑菇教堂。

Zydore is a mushroom church.

它围绕着一种信仰建立，即致幻的裸盖菇能让人直接接触神圣。

It is organized around the belief that psychedelic psilocybin mushrooms offer direct access to the divine.

通常，我会说我经营着世界上最大的蘑菇教堂。

Generally, I say I run the largest mushroom church in the world.

也就是说，如果我们简单点说的话。

That's, you know, if we're we're going simple.

这就是电梯演讲。

That's the elevator pitch.

这就是

That's the

宣传标语。

log line.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yep.

Zydore 是全国越来越多新兴迷幻教会之一，其基础是宗教自由原则赋予它们生产、分发和消费通常会导致联邦监禁的物质的权利。

Zydore is one of a growing number of new psychedelic churches around the country, predicated on the idea that the principle of religious freedom gives them the right to produce, distribute, and consume substances that might otherwise send you to federal prison.

在这里，教区居民不是领取圣餐饼或葡萄酒，而是被提供一些已知最强大的精神改变物质，可以带回家并随心所欲地使用。

Here, instead of taking communion wafers or wine, parishioners are offered some of the most powerful mind altering substances ever known to take home and do with as they please.

加入教会非常简单。

To join the church is pretty simple.

你必须填写一份申请，承诺你真诚的宗教信仰。

You have to fill out an application pledging your sincere religiosity.

我们会问你几个问题，比如你是否接受这作为你宗教的一部分、谁推荐了你、你从事什么职业。

We ask you a few questions of whether or not you accept this as part of your religion, who referred you, what you do for a living.

有没有一个‘你是警察’的勾选项？

Is there an are you a cop checkbox?

有的。

There is.

有的。

There is.

我们确实会问你是否在执法部门工作。

We definitely ask if you work with law enforcement.

我们还有一份专门的文件，要求每个人签署，上面写明：如果你是警察或与警察有关系，我们将起诉你并索赔十万美元。在审核并批准你之后，你会收到一张会员卡，然后就可以进来。

There's even a special piece of paper we have everybody sign that says if you're a cop or work with the cops, we're going to sue you for $100,000 And once we review that and approve you, then you're given a membership card and you're allowed to come in.

一旦你成为会员，可以在前台签到，然后前往教堂分发药物的场所，教堂将所有这些物质称为圣礼。

Once you are in, you can check-in at the front desk before making your way to the place where the church distributes the drugs, all of which the church calls sacrament.

这里是圣礼室，人们在这里缴纳现金，我们则向他们提供圣礼。

This is the sacrament room where people contribute cash and we give them the sacrament.

现在，戴夫特别强调，你不能在圣礼室购买蘑菇或其他任何东西，尽管教堂是纯现金交易的。

Now, Dave is very careful to point out you cannot buy mushrooms or anything else in the sacrament room, even though the church is a cash only congregation.

这里故意没有任何销售行为。

There are very intentionally no sales here.

‘销售’这个词是个敏感词。

The word sale is kind of a bad word.

相反，您可以向教会捐赠现金，之后柜台后的圣礼提供者会根据您认为可能有助于您与灵魂连接的东西为您提供相应物品。

Instead, you can make a cash donation to the church, after which one of the sacrament providers behind the counter will offer you whatever you think might help you get in touch with your soul.

圣礼室里有多种不同的选择。

And the sacrament room contains a lot of different options.

四周摆放着装有预卷香烟和大麻软糖的玻璃柜，还有抽屉里装着各种品种和效力的致幻蘑菇。

All around, there are glass cases filled with pre rolled joints and cannabis gummies, but also drawers filled with psychedelic mushrooms of various strains and potencies.

有经典的金老师、阴茎恩比、太阳神殿，还有另一种菌株。

There's the classics like the golden teachers, penis enby, sun temple, another strain.

对于那些有点甜食爱好者的人来说，还有各种形状和大小的蘑菇糖果。

For those with a bit of a sweet tooth, there are mushroom confections of all shapes and sizes.

是的，那些是蘑菇巧克力，还有太妃糖。

Yeah, those are mushroom chocolates and that's taffy.

这些是压制成的小糖果，有点像那种带小包装的糖果？

These are little pressed candies that are kind of like what is that candy that comes with a little wrapper?

像Sweeties吗？

Like Sweeties?

是的，Sweeties。

Yeah, Sweeties.

它们有点像Sweeties。

They're they're kind of like Sweeties.

这就像一个迷幻版的威利·旺卡。

It's like a psychedelic Willy Wonka situation.

是的。

Yeah.

有点吧。

Kinda.

圣事室甚至还提供DMT（二甲基色胺），这是科学已知的最强大的致幻化合物之一。

The sacrament room even contains DMT or dimethyltryptamine, one of the most powerful hallucinogenic compounds known to science.

广泛流传但或许存疑的说法是，你的大脑在你出生和临终时会释放这种物质。

Widely, but maybe dubiously, rumored to be released by your brain when you're being born and when you're dying.

我们确实有纯DMT，还有电子烟笔。

We do carry just straight DMT, but also, vape pens.

我要捐多少钱才能得到一个这样的东西？

And how much how much would I have to donate to get one of these?

这要看情况。

It it depends.

大概一百美元左右吧。

Probably about a $100 for that.

我是在一个相对冷清的周一下午造访这座教堂的。

I'm visiting the church on a relatively sleepy Monday afternoon.

但戴夫说，在繁忙的周末，他们一天在圣礼室接待的成员可能超过三百人。

But Dave says on a busy weekend, they can see more than 300 members a day in the sacrament room.

正是这种规模，让戴夫在迷幻运动中声名鹊起，也略显争议。

And it is that kind of volume that's made Dave famous and a little bit controversial in the psychedelic movement.

我听说有人把你们的教堂比作巨型教会。

I've heard people compare your church to mega church status.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

通过我们的会员体系，目前已有超过13.5万名会员亲自到教堂领取圣餐。

Well, through our membership, we now have a little over a 135,000 members who have all physically come through the church to get sacrament.

哇。

Wow.

如果你在我刚创办教堂时问我，我们会不会成为世界上最大的迷幻教派，我会说你疯了。

If you had asked me when I started the church if we would ever become the largest psychedelic church in the world, I would tell you you were crazy.

你好，欢迎收听《星球金钱》。

Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.

我是亚历克西·霍罗维茨·加齐。

I'm Alexei Horowitz Gazi.

我们正处在一个迷幻教会的黄金时代。

We are in a sort of golden age of psychedelic churches.

在过去的几十年里，全美涌现出数百个以高度受控物质为核心的教会，它们几乎都处于法律的灰色地带。

Over the past couple decades, hundreds of churches built around highly controlled substances have sprouted up across the country, nearly all of them in a legal gray area.

今天在节目中，我们将深入探访可能是其中规模最大的一座教会，并认识一位致力于帮助迷幻宗教领袖避免入狱的律师。

Today on the show, we go inside what is likely the largest of these churches, and we'll meet one of the lawyers trying to help keep psychedelic religious leaders out of prison.

会有八角神、自我消解、警察突袭，以及一窥政府如何界定什么才算真正的宗教。

There will be octagods, ego deaths, police raids, and a peek into how the government decides what actually counts as a religion.

我想弄明白，究竟是如何合法地运营一家大型教堂，每年向数千人分发价值数百万美元的一类管制毒品。

I wanted to understand how it's conceivably legal to openly operate a megachurch distributing millions of dollars of schedule one narcotics to thousands of people every year.

于是我联系了一位名叫约翰·拉普的律师。

And so I called a lawyer named John Rapp.

这挺讽刺的，因为我的外表看起来像个相当正经的职场人士。

It's funny because I I come off as kind of a, you know, reasonably corporate guy.

你知道的，我曾在埃克森公司工作。

You know, I worked for Exxon.

我还在微软工作过。

I worked for Microsoft.

我为洛克希德和一些大型公司工作过。

I worked for Lockheed and big, big companies.

但如今，我主要的工作是帮助创建、保护、指导、咨询并警示这些迷幻宗教团体。

But these days, what I mostly do is I help create, defend, advise, counsel, and warn psychedelic churches.

在过去

Over the

过去的几年里，约翰已成为迷幻教会法律领域最有名的人物之一。

past few years, John has become one of the bigger names in the world of psychedelic church law.

所以在植物运动中，真的有几个人以为我是卧底。

And so in the plant movement, I literally had a couple of people think I was a narc.

最近我才知道，这里大多数律师现在都叫我‘嬉皮士律师’，我向你保证，我根本不是。

And then I found out recently that most of the lawyers around here call me a hippie, hippie lawyer now, which I guarantee you, am not.

约翰走向迷幻领域的道路并不显而易见。

John's path to psychedelics was not an obvious one.

他从小在保守的基督教家庭长大，成长于毒品战争的高峰期，当时许多迷幻物质都被联邦政府禁止并污名化。

He was raised a conservative Christian, and he grew up in the heyday of the war on drugs when many psychedelic substances were federally outlawed and stigmatized.

我有时会告诉别人，我父母比讨厌民主党更讨厌的词就是LSD。

I tell people sometimes the only word that my parents hated more than democrat was LSD.

你知道，他们完全接受了理查德·尼克松那一套。

You know, they really bought the whole Richard Nixon routine.

美国头号公敌是药物滥用。

America's public enemy number one in The United States is drug abuse.

为了对抗并击败这一敌人，必须发动一场全面的新攻势。

In order to fight and defeat this enemy, it is necessary to wage a new all out offensive.

1970年，尼克松总统签署了《受控物质法案》，将LSD和裸盖菇素等致幻剂列入惩罚最严厉的附表一类别。

In 1970, president Nixon signed the Controlled Substances Act into law, which put psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin mushrooms in a highly punishable category, schedule one.

关于这些药物危险性的所有宣传，影响了一整代人对它们的看法，包括约翰。

And all the messaging around the dangers of these drugs impacted the way a whole generation viewed them, including John.

我那时对这些东西都很害怕，比如可卡因和LSD，我觉得它们都差不多。

I was scared of all these things, you know, cocaine and LSD, and I thought they were all kind of the same.

约翰说，直到2020年，在从事了数十年的公司诉讼之后，才发生了一件事，彻底改变了他对致幻剂的看法。

John says it wasn't until 2020, after decades practicing corporate litigation, that something happened to radically change his outlook on psychedelics.

这件事与他的儿子有关。

It had to do with his son.

在2000年代，约翰的儿子在手术后被开了阿片类药物。

Back in the 2000s, John's son had been prescribed opiates after surgery.

最初的处方导致了长达十多年之久的成瘾斗争，而这场斗争在他2020年去世时突然终结。

That initial prescription led to a more than decade long struggle with addiction that suddenly ended when he died in 2020.

在深深的悲痛中，约翰想起儿子曾经说过，让他在最黑暗的日子里获得慰藉的，正是迷幻剂卡皮拉（Ayahuasca）仪式。

In the depths of his grief, John remembered that one of the things his son had said had given him relief, even in his darkest days, were psychedelic Ayahuasca ceremonies.

于是约翰决定试一试，他说自己在那里经历的一切都深深触动了他。

So John decided to give it a try, and he says what he experienced there was deeply moving.

这帮助他处理了失去儿子的伤痛，并彻底改变了他对迷幻药物力量与潜力的看法。

It helped him process the loss of his son and fundamentally changed his mind about the power and possibility of psychedelic drugs.

要描述某些物质在高剂量下的体验几乎是不可能的。

It is impossible to describe the experience of some of these substances at a high dose.

这就像生孩子、结婚，或者第一次看到巴黎——根本无法用任何其他事情来比拟。

It's like having a baby or getting married or seeing Paris for the first It's just not like anything else.

对我来说，这些物质竟然被列为非法，简直难以想象。

It just seemed inconceivable to me that these things were illegal.

你知道的。

You know?

它几乎完全改变了我的人生，而且是向更好的方向。

It changed my life almost entirely for the better.

该死。

Fuck.

于是约翰决定，他要将自己余下的职业生涯，用来以各种方式纪念儿子，尽一切努力保护那些提供安全使用这些改变人生物质的人。

So John decided that he was going to spend the rest of his professional life kinda honoring his son by doing everything he could to protect the people offering safe access to these life changing substances.

他积极投身于在自己居住的西雅图推动自然致幻物质非刑事化的法律行动。

He jumped into the legal effort to decriminalize natural psychedelics in Seattle, where he lives.

他加入了一家当地的迷幻教会，并开始结识越来越多这个领域的人。

He joined a psychedelic church in his area, and he started to meet more and more people in this world.

所以我开始在各种活动和场合中逐渐了解这些人。

So I just started getting to know these people at events and things.

当人们遇到麻烦时，就会给我打电话。

And then when people had trouble, they would call me.

约翰开始接到各种人的来电，他们都在寻求关于使用迷幻物质的法律建议，包括希望为患者提供迷幻疗法但又想尽量避免入狱或失去执照的治疗师和医疗从业者。

John started to get calls from all sorts of people looking for legal advice when it came to using psychedelics, From therapists or medical practitioners who wanted to offer psychedelics to their patients but wanted to minimize the likelihood of going to jail or losing their licenses.

还有那些希望保护自己免受执法部门干预的新兴宗教团体。

And from burgeoning religious communities hoping to protect themselves from intervention by law enforcement.

我现在做的大部分工作就是帮助这些教会。

And that's, most of what I do now is help those churches.

不幸的是，它们中的大多数都没有钱。

Unfortunately, most of them don't have any money.

所以很多工作最终都成了我的义务法律服务。

So a lot of it ends up being my pro bono practice.

当你愿意大部分时间免费工作时，消息就会传开。

And word gets around when you're mostly willing to work for free.

事实证明，这是一个非常有吸引力的价格。

It it turns out that's a very attractive price.

实际上，美国长期以来一直存在对其他被禁止物质的宗教豁免历史。

Now there is actually a long history of religious exemptions to otherwise forbidden substances in The US.

早在20世纪60年代，美洲原住民教会就开始获得在仪式中使用佩奥特碱的豁免权。

The Native American church started receiving exemptions for the ceremonial use of peyote as early as the 1960s.

自那以后，一些国际性的迷幻宗教团体在这里站稳了脚跟。

Since then, a number of international psychedelic churches have found a foothold here.

但真正激发了这一波新宗教团体兴起的重大法律案件发生在21世纪初。

But the big legal case that helped inspire a whole new wave of these churches came in the mid two thousands.

在新墨西哥州的圣达菲，有一个巴西迷幻教会的分支。

There was a branch of a Brazilian psychedelic church in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

它大约有130名成员。

It had about a 130 members.

有一天，该教会从巴西进口一批死藤水时，被海关和边境保护局发现并没收了。

One day, the church was importing a shipment of Ayahuasca tea from Brazil when the tea was discovered and confiscated by customs and border protection.

教会决定起诉政府，指控海关违反了《宗教自由恢复法案》所保障的宗教权利。

The church decided to sue the government, alleging that customs had violated their religious rights under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

该案最终上诉至最高法院。

The case eventually made its way to the Supreme Court.

2006年，法院最终支持了教会的主张。

And in 2006, the court ultimately agreed.

毕竟，他们认为，政府并未证明该教会使用的致幻剂具有危害性，或可能蔓延至会众之外。

After all, they reasoned, the government had not demonstrated that the church's psychedelics were harmful or that they were likely to spread beyond the congregation.

此外，正如首席大法官约翰·罗伯茨所解释的，美洲原住民教会几十年来一直享有豁免权。

Plus, as chief justice John Roberts explained, the Native American church had been exempt for decades.

如果数百万人的美洲原住民可以被允许使用受控物质，我们看不出为什么不能考虑为这里涉及的约130名教会成员给予类似的豁免。

If an exception for use of a controlled substance is permitted for hundreds of thousands of Native Americans, we do not see why there can be no consideration of a similar exception for the 130 or so members of the church at issue here.

约翰·拉普表示，这一案件证明，除了美洲原住民教会之外，其他致幻剂教会也能在法庭上争取并赢得自己的权利。

John Rapp says that case proved that psychedelic churches beyond the Native American church could fight for their rights and win in court.

它也为近年来他开始注意到的全新致幻剂教会的激增奠定了基础——当时他逐渐熟悉了这一领域的法律，并不断接到寻求法律建议的电话。

And it helps set the stage for the boom in brand new psychedelic churches that he started noticing a few years ago as he became familiar with this part of the law and started to get more and more calls for legal advice.

这些教会最根本想知道的是：我们需要做些什么，才能在不坐牢的情况下实践我们的宗教？

And the underlying thing these churches want to know is what do we need to do to practice our religion without going to prison?

约翰首先解释的是，除非政府明确授予你豁免权，否则在这个世界上不存在完全的法律保护。

The first thing John explains is that unless the government has specifically granted you an exemption, there is no such thing as full legal protection in this world.

这些教会中的任何一个都可能在任何时候引起执法部门的注意，并因违反《受控物质法》而被送上法庭。

Any one of these churches could draw the attention of law enforcement at any time and end up in court for violating the Controlled Substances Act.

所以约翰的工作是帮助这些教会以最具法律保障的方式组织起来。

So John's job is to help these churches organize themselves in the most legally defensible way possible.

虽然你不能鼓励他人犯罪，但你可以就一种推定非法行为的可能后果提供咨询。

While you cannot encourage someone to commit crimes, you can counsel them on the likely consequences of a presumptively illegal course of conduct.

所以我们做的很多就是这类事情。

So that's a lot of what we do.

在2006年那起涉及巴西死藤水教会的最高法院案件之后，缉毒局确实建立了一个正式程序，用于申请《受控物质法》的宗教豁免，但这个过程相当复杂。

Now after that 2006 Supreme Court case, the one with the Brazilian Ayahuasca Church, the DEA did create a formal process to apply for a religious exemption to the Controlled Substances Act, but the process is pretty fraught.

首先，缉毒局在处理这类申请时以缓慢著称，有时需要数年才能回应申请团体。

For one, the DEA is notoriously slow on this, sometimes taking years to respond to groups that have applied.

我们联系了缉毒局，他们告诉我们，多种因素会影响处理时间，包括申请人提交全部文件所需的时间以及安排实地检查的时间。

We reached out to the DEA who told us multiple factors can impact the time, including how long it takes a petitioner to submit all their paperwork and scheduling on-site inspections.

该程序还要求申请人在申请期间停止使用非法物质，这实际上意味着暂停他们的宗教实践。

The process also requires applicants to stop using illegal substances during the petition period, which for all intents and purposes means pausing their religious practices.

然后约翰说，这里还存在一种两难困境。

And then John says there's this sort of catch 22.

如果你申请了但最终被拒绝，你就等于向政府提供了详细的证据，理论上他们可以用这些证据对你的教会提起毒品案件。

If you apply and you are ultimately denied, you've just given the government detailed evidence they could, in theory, use to bring a drug case against your church.

你只是在一份公开文件中表明，

You're just saying in a public document,

你知道，我们做了哪些事情，我们的地址在哪里，以及我们如何订购圣餐。

you know, here's all the things we're doing, and here's our address, and this is how we order our sacrament.

基本上，你就是在自认犯罪。

And, basically, you're confessing to crimes.

对吧？

Right?

所以约翰的工作，他解释说，主要集中在帮助他的客户思考一个基本的检验标准。

So John's work, he explains, focuses mostly on helping his clients think through a basic litmus test.

法律上什么是教会？

What makes something a church in the eyes of the law?

他们如何判断某种行为是否属于真诚的宗教信仰？

How do they determine whether something is sincere religion?

现在，政府并没有提供一份明确的属性清单来回答这个问题，但他们已经在不同地方留下了一些线索。

Now, it's not like the government has provided some definitive list of attributes they use to answer that question, but they have left clues in various places.

其中一个线索是上世纪九十年代怀俄明州一起关于大麻教会牧师被指控持有和贩运的联邦案件。

One of them was a federal case in Wyoming where the reverend of a marijuana church was charged with possession and trafficking back in the nineties.

像约翰这样的人将法院在此案中使用的标准称为迈尔斯测试。

People like John referred to the criteria the court used there as the Myers test.

它只是列出了哪些内容构成一种被推定为合法的宗教。

And it it just has a list of what constitutes, you know, a presumptively legitimate religion.

比如，这个所谓的宗教是否有明确的创始人或精神领袖？

Things like, does this alleged religion have a clearly defined founder or spiritual leader?

他们是否定期举行礼拜和仪式？

Do they hold regular services and ceremonies?

他们是否有仪式？

Do they have rituals?

这个宗教是否有完善的神学体系，这些信仰是否被编纂成某种圣典？

Does this religion have a well developed theology, and are those beliefs codified in some kind of sacred text?

你知道吗，我 literally 帮人写《圣经》。

You know, I literally help people write Bibles.

我

I

我的工作很大一部分就是做这个。

mean, that's a big part of what I do.

你怎么写一部新的《圣经》？

How do you write a new Bible?

我说，你看。

I say, look.

把你所有的东西都发给我，通常他们有很多内容。

Send me everything you've got, and, typically, they got a lot.

我最新的客户是那个八面神，有八个个性在梦里出现在我面前。

My latest client is, like, the octogod with, like, eight personalities appeared to me in a dream.

你知道，有时候你得记住，摩门教和其他一些宗教的早期也有非常奇特的故事。

And, you know, sometimes you gotta really remember, you know, the early days of Mormonism and a few others had some very odd stories too.

是的

Yeah.

所有主要宗教都包含一些对非信徒来说可能显得荒诞的元素。

All sorts of major religions have elements that might sound outlandish to a nonbeliever.

比如燃烧的荆棘、会说话的蛇，以及在来世中 omnipotently 降雨覆盖整个世界。

You know, burning bushes, talking snakes, raining omnipotently over entire worlds in the afterlife.

所以我通常会收集所有这些内容，再结合我从其他案例中了解到的伦理准则、教会章程，将这种愿景和故事线转化为一部经文，或者有些人直接称之为圣经。

So I typically take all that, and then I'll take things I know from other cases, codes of ethics, bylaws that I've seen work for churches, and we translate that vision, that storyline into a canon or, you know, some people actually call it a bible.

所以，通过这种所谓的迈尔斯测试，我们可以根据这些因素来调整你的教会体系。

So using this so called Myers test, we can kind of retrofit your church based on these factors.

约翰的工作就是帮助他的客户以一种理论上容易被法官、陪审团或好奇的缉毒局特工理解的方式，将他们的新宗教体系化。

And John's job is to basically help his clients codify their new religions in ways that should be, in theory, easily legible to a judge or a jury or a curious DEA agent.

他帮助他们标准化文本、仪式、宗教服饰，甚至包括节日等事项。

He helps them standardize their texts, their ceremonies, their religious garb, even things like holidays.

这是我最喜欢的部分之一。

That's one of my favorite parts.

我只是觉得这很有趣。

I just think that's fun.

所以

So

你有没有特别自豪的案例？

Do you have any you're particularly proud of?

我最喜欢的是，4月19日是自行车日，我们庆祝LSD的发现，因为阿尔伯特·霍夫曼骑着自行车，带着LSD的药效穿过了苏黎世的街道。

My favorite one is, April 19 is, bicycle day, the day we celebrate the discovery of LSD because Albert Hoffman went out on a bike ride high on LSD through the streets of Zurich.

其实是在巴塞尔的街道上，但你明白我的意思。

It was actually the streets of Basel, but you get the idea.

约翰还总是告诉他的客户，有一些规则是他们应该遵守的。

One other thing John always tells his clients is that there are some rules they should follow.

DEA对那些获得豁免的教会如何处理和保管致幻剂有明确的规定，比如使用保险箱和视频监控，以确保药物不会流入教会以外的人手中。

The DEA has clear protocols for how churches that have gotten exemptions are required to handle and secure their psychedelics, using things like lock boxes and video surveillance to make sure that drugs don't get diverted to people outside the church.

但即便如此，也没有任何保证。

Still, nothing is a guarantee.

即使我们完成了法律工作，你也不是在付钱让我消除你的风险。

Even if we do the legal work, you're not actually paying for me to eliminate your risk.

你是在付钱让我降低你的风险。

You're paying for me to reduce your risk.

到目前为止，约翰估计全美有超过300个迷幻宗教组织在运作，这听起来很多，但大多数规模都很小。

At this point, John estimates there are somewhere north of 300 psychedelic religious organizations operating around The US, which sounds like a lot, but most of them are pretty small.

约翰说，就财务而言，这些教会大多只是勉强维持。

And John says when it comes to finances, most of these churches are barely scraping by.

但有一个巨大的例外，一个规模庞大且非常成功的迷幻教会，它吸引了迷幻圈外许多人的关注，成为这场新兴教会浪潮的潜在测试案例。

But there is one big exception, a psychedelic church so big and so successful that it's drawn the attention of people far outside the psychedelic community, making it a potential test case for this whole wave of new churches.

齐多尔教会的经济异常程度有多高？

How much of an economic outlier is the Zydore church?

很难夸大其词。

Hard to overstate.

我的猜测是，美国所有迷幻药物收入的70%到80%都流向了齐多尔教会。

I mean, I would if I had to guess, I would guess that 70 or 80% of all the revenue in The United States for psychedelics goes to Zydore.

哇。

Wow.

我的意思是，戴夫·霍奇斯在财务上远远是所有迷幻教会中最成功的。

I mean, Dave Hodges is, you know, far and away the most successful financially of the psychedelic churches.

我们想

We wanted

弄清楚这一切内部是如何运作的。

to figure out how this all works from the inside.

所以广告之后，星球金钱将创办自己的迷幻大型教会。

So after the break, planet money starts its own psychedelic megachurch.

开玩笑的。

Just kidding.

NPR的律师们对这个想法根本不感兴趣。

NPR's lawyers were really not into that idea.

相反，我们重新回到戴夫·霍奇牧师的迷幻蘑菇大型教会，了解将迷幻宗教推向大众所带来的希望与风险。

Instead, we dive back into pastor Dave Hodge's magic mushroom megachurch to hear about the promise and peril of bringing psychedelic religion to the masses.

当我本月早些时候去奥克兰拜访齐多教会时，我不得不承认，我对它如何在宗教场所与商业之间保持平衡感到有些怀疑。

Hodges' When I went to visit the Zidore Church in Oakland earlier this month, I have to admit I was a bit skeptical of how it could toe the line between a house of worship and a business.

但我希望以真诚的态度去理解戴夫·霍奇斯牧师是如何将这一切纳入宗教框架的。

But I wanted to make a good faith effort to understand how pastor Dave Hodges put all this in the framework of religion.

他告诉我，他从未打算成为世界上最大的迷幻教会的负责人。

And he told me he never intended to run the largest psychedelic church in the world.

对他来说，他只希望拥有一小群志同道合的信徒。

To him, a small community of like minded worshipers was all he wanted.

以及让更多公众接触到迷幻物质。

That and greater public access to psychedelics.

齐多教会，或者戴夫所称的‘安布罗西亚教会’，实际上早在2019年就起源于一个大麻教会。

Zydore or the Church of Ambrosia, as Dave calls the broader organization, it actually started as a marijuana church back in 2019.

这是戴夫运营的一系列以反毒品战争为宗旨的半商业性活动组织中的最新一个。

The latest in a string of weed organizations Dave had run as a sort of quasi anti war on drugs business activist.

但到了2019年7月，他在食用迷幻蘑菇时经历了一次改变人生的幻象，他说这让他真正成为了信徒。

But then in July 2019, he had a life altering vision while on mushrooms that he says turned him into a true believer.

最后，三个金色的存在坐在我面前，告诉我我一生中经历的一切，以及我应该做什么。

It ended with these three golden beings sitting down with me and telling me everything that I had went through in my life and what I was supposed to do.

他们告诉我，他们需要我，因为我有能力理解他们，而且我打过很多官司，我在大麻行业中学到的所有经验，都是他们希望我用来保护这种工具和这场运动的。

And what they told me was that they needed me because I was somebody who was capable of understanding them, but also I fought a lot court cases, and all the experience that I learned through the cannabis industry was things that they needed me to do and fight to protect this tool and this movement.

当时你有没有觉得自己正在经历某种神圣的启示？

Did you feel at the time like you were receiving a kind of divine revelation of some sort?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这些最好被描述为灵性幻象。

Well, I mean, these are best described as spiritual visions.

于是，戴夫将教会的核心重新聚焦于迷幻蘑菇，特别是采用远超普通人娱乐性使用的剂量，大约是平时的十倍。

So Dave re centered the church around psychedelic mushrooms, specifically around the practice of taking much higher doses than people usually do recreationally, like 10 times more.

起初，发展相对缓慢，主要是通过Reddit了解到这个教会的人。

At first, growth was relatively slow, mostly people who'd heard about the church on Reddit.

但在2020年8月，发生了一件事，彻底加速了教会的发展轨迹。

But something happened in August 2020 that would end up radically accelerating the church's trajectory.

有一天，戴夫在检查教会的一处大麻种植点时，接到了一名员工的电话。

One day, Dave was checking up on one of the church's marijuana grow houses when he got a call from one of his employees.

奥克兰警察局的人到了门口。

The Oakland Police Department was at the door.

他们正在突袭那栋建筑。

They were raiding the building.

据戴夫说，在接下来的几个小时里，警察搜查了圣物室，并撬开了教会的一个保险箱，最终没收了价值约20万美元的蘑菇和大麻，以及数千美元现金。

According to Dave, over the next few hours, the police swept the sacrament room and cut into one of the church's safes, in the end confiscating some $200,000 worth of mushrooms and marijuana and several thousand dollars in cash.

但戴夫表示，自从创办教会以来，他就一直在为这种状况做准备。

But Dave says he'd been preparing for this kind of thing since he started the church.

他做了大量研究，了解了诸如迈尔斯宗教真诚性测试之类的内容。

He'd done his research, understood things like the Myers test of religious sincerity.

事实上，这在某种程度上正是他的目的。

In fact, this was in some ways the point.

他欢迎有机会站出来对抗法律，帮助捍卫宗教自由使用这些物品的权利。

He welcomed the chance to stand up against the law, to help defend the religious right to do all of this.

于是，就在第二天，戴夫又开始分发圣餐了。

And so by the very next day, Dave was serving sacrament again.

戴夫说，这次突袭非但没有让齐多尔停止营业，反而让他们登上了全国新闻。

And rather than put Zidor out of nonbusiness, Dave says the raid actually made them a national news story.

因此，这次突袭在某种程度上将教会推到了公众视野中。

So the raid ended up kind of catapulting the church into the public eye in some way.

当然。

Absolutely.

如果没有这次突袭，你们可能永远不会知道我们的存在。

Without the raid, you might not ever know we existed.

没有突袭。

No raid.

就没有大型教会。

No mega church.

是的。

Yeah.

基本上是这样。

Basically.

很快，齐多尔的会员人数就开始激增。

Pretty soon, Zydore's membership started to take off.

我应该指出，正是在这个时候，齐多尔在迷幻教会中真正成为了一个异类。

And I should say this is the point where Zydore really becomes an outlier in the world of psychedelic churches.

与其他著名的迷幻教会不同，那些教会要求潜在会员进行面谈和测试，以核实他们的身心状况，并深入灌输教会教义，而齐多尔的入门门槛相对较低。

Unlike other prominent psychedelic churches that make prospective members do interviews and tests to double check their mental and physical health and steeping them in church theology, Zeidore's barrier to entry is relatively low.

只需签署一份表格，表明你相信他们的教义且不是警察，再缴纳10美元的入会费，之后每月5美元即可。

Just a form agreement stating that you believe in their doctrine and that you're not a cop, along with a $10 initiation fee and $5 a month after that.

现在，美元数额可能听起来不多，但在突袭事件之后，齐多尔的会员人数急剧增长。

Now, dollars may not sound like that much, but after the raid, Zydore's membership exploded.

到目前为止，已有超过13.5万名会员加入过这家教会。

Over 135,000 members have come through the church at this point.

如今，戴夫估计每月约有4000名会员前来参加圣礼。

These days, Dave estimates about 4,000 members come into the church to get sacrament each month.

这意味着每月至少有两万美元的会员费。

That means a minimum of $20,000 a month in membership fees.

如果每位会员每次捐赠约60美元，一年下来，总收入可达数百万美元。

And if each of those members donates, say, $60 a visit, multiplied over the year, that's several million dollars in revenue.

如此庞大的规模引发了一些质疑。

And all that scale has raised some eyebrows.

当人们说，这看起来只是利用本应受到严格管控的非法物质来赚大钱时，你怎么回应？

How do you respond when when people say, you know, well, this just looks like a way to make a lot of money on otherwise extremely kind of controlled illicit substances?

如果你真想赚大钱，你会选择一个不必担心警察闯入、砸门抢走一切的生意。

That if you wanted to make a lot of money, you do a business where you didn't have to worry about the cops coming in and knocking down the door and taking everything.

你知道，这根本不是能靠它积累财富的生意。

You know, this is not this is not a situation where you can build wealth out of.

戴夫表示，对于那些认为他是某种真菌大亨的人，实际利润比表面看起来要薄得多。

Dave says for those who think he's some sort of fungal kingpin, the margins are slimmer than they may appear.

戴夫需要承担很多开支。

Dave's got a lot of cost to cover.

他们需要支付教堂的租金，以及另一栋用于进行高剂量仪式的独立房屋的费用。

There's rent for the church and a separate house where they do high dosage ceremonies.

他还要支付员工工资。

He's got payroll.

他说，Zydore 收入的至少一半都用于从安全供应商采购大麻、蘑菇和 DMT，并进行效力和质量检测。

He says at least half of the money Zydore takes in goes to supplying all that marijuana and mushrooms and DMT from secure suppliers and then doing potency and quality control testing.

安保费用非常高。

Security is really expensive.

再说一遍，我们位于奥克兰，正如你所见，这是一个治安相当差的地区。

Again, we're in Oakland, so it's, as you saw, a fairly hard area.

如果没有武装保安把守门口，就会出事。

And without armed guards at the door, things would happen.

戴夫喜欢说，Zydore 正夹在警察和劫匪之间。

Dave likes to say Zydore is kinda caught between the cops and the robbers.

就像大麻 dispensaries 一样，这个教会无法使用正常的银行系统，因为他们经营的是联邦法律禁止的物质。

Just like marijuana dispensaries, the church can't use the normal banking system because they're dealing with federally outlawed substances.

整个地方都靠现金运转。

The whole place runs on cash.

对我来说，如果有一堆十万美元的现金放在那儿，我会紧张得想：我该把钱交给谁，才能不让警察来没收？

To me, if there's a pile of a $100,000 in cash sitting around, I'm freaking out going, well, who do I give this to so that the cops don't come take it?

因为你拥有的资产越多，他们能没收的资产也就越多。

Because the more assets that you have, the more assets they can take.

戴夫说，教会的钱让他过上了舒适的生活。

Dave says the money from the church does afford him a comfortable life.

这意味着他不需要每周工作好几天，而是可以多花时间陪伴他年幼的儿子。

It means he doesn't have to work several days a week that he can instead spend with his young son.

在没有对戴夫的财务进行彻底调查的情况下，我们无法确定真相。

Without a forensic dive into Dave's finances, we can't know for sure.

但看起来他并没有大手大脚地花钱，因为那样会引来太多关注，而且警察已经从教会没收了数十万美元的财物。

But it doesn't seem like he's splashing out, given how much attention that would draw and the fact that the police have already confiscated hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of stuff from the church.

所以每当我们有多余的现金，我就会想想社区里有哪些地方我们可以支持。

So anytime there's extra cash, you know, I I look for things in the community that we can we can support.

戴夫表示，除了像玩具捐赠这样的慈善教会活动外，这笔钱的一部分还用于支持其他迷幻教会，帮助它们应对与政府之间的法律纠纷，这也揭示了目前所有这些教会所处的奇特集体困境。

Dave says that in addition to doing charitable churchy things like toy drives, a portion of this money also goes to other psychedelic churches, helping them prepare for their legal tangles with the government, which gets to the strange collective limbo that all of these churches are in at this moment.

至少就蘑菇而言，美国的法律状况是七零八落的。

When it comes to mushrooms, at least, The US is a legal patchwork.

存在着一些相对安全的法律孤岛，比如奥克兰和西雅图，这些地方已经将蘑菇非刑事化。

There are these legal islands of relative safety, places like Oakland and Seattle that have decriminalized mushrooms.

这意味着当地政府已指示执法部门将蘑菇相关案件列为最低优先级。

That means that local governments have directed their law enforcement to treat mushroom crimes as their lowest priority.

在这些地方，无论是否通过教会，获得这些物质都变得相对容易。

And in those places, it's become relatively easy to get these substances with or without a church.

但这并不意味着教会就高枕无忧了。

But that doesn't mean churches are in the clear.

例如，在齐多尔的案例中，那次突袭后最终并未提起任何指控。

For example, in Zydore's case, there were ultimately no charges filed after that raid.

但戴夫说，他从未要回被没收的物品。

But Dave says he never recovered the things that were taken.

而且，根据许多州的法律以及联邦法律，这些药物仍然是非法的。

And these drugs are still illegal according to many state laws and everywhere federally.

在过去几年里，已有数起针对迷幻教会的诉讼案件。

Over the past few years, there have been several cases brought against psychedelic churches.

例如，佛罗里达州的一家阿亚乌斯卡教会及其负责人因一名参与者在仪式后死亡而被判定犯有疏忽罪。

For example, an Ayahuasca church in Florida and its owner were found guilty of negligence after a participant died following a ceremony.

其他一些教会则被突袭，被指控为毒品分销的幌子。

Other churches have been raided as fronts for drug distribution.

正是这种张力，从一开始我就一直感到困惑。

And it's this tension that I'd really been wondering about from the beginning.

比如，是不是有大量人只是把齐多尔当作获取药物的途径，而根本不在乎他们的信仰？

Like, are a ton of people just using Zidor as a way to get drugs regardless of what they believe?

如果有人这么说：好吧，我可能相信你们对这种宗教实践的真诚态度，

What would you say to somebody who's like, okay, I may believe in your, you know, sincere religiosity around this.

但这个教会规模如此庞大，你们如何能确保这13万多名成员中，没有人只是出于娱乐探索的目的，而非真正出于信仰？

But the church is so large that how can you be sure that any of these 130,000 plus members are doing this as an act of faith as opposed to a kind of recreational exploration?

是的

Yeah.

对我来说，无论他们是否意识到，他们都在经历一种宗教体验。

For me, the perspective is that whether they know it or not, they are having a religious experience.

所以当我谈论蘑菇的作用时，它们会影响这个世界的边界与下一个世界的界限。

So when I talk about how the mushrooms work, they affect the border between this world and the next.

从我的角度来看，任何他们为接近灵魂所做的事情都是一种宗教体验。

And anything they're doing to get closer to the soul is a religious experience from my perspective.

无论他们是否理解自己正在做什么，随着他们不断进行，最终他们会明白。

And whether or not they they understand that that's what they're doing, As they do more, eventually, they will understand.

你知道，他们最终会自己转化。

It it's you know, they they end up converting themselves.

换句话说，戴夫认为，无论你的意图如何，食用蘑菇都会开启一种与自己灵魂的灵性交流。

In other words, Dave believes that no matter your intention, consuming mushrooms opens up a kind of spiritual communion with your own soul.

这本质上是一种宗教体验。

It is an inherently religious experience.

因此，他通过提供这些物质，履行了教会的宗教使命。

And so he is fulfilling his church's religious mission by providing them.

但即使是其他迷幻教会，也可能对戴夫的运营规模、相对宽松的成员准入政策以及他对高剂量的专注感到担忧。

But even other psychedelic churches can be a bit apprehensive about the scale of Dave's operation, his relatively permissive approach to membership, and his focus on very high dosages.

一位牧师告诉我，他感激齐多尔为许多人提供了进入迷幻灵性世界的入口，但他也担心这可能会混淆公众和执法部门。

One pastor told me he's grateful that Zydore has provided an entry point to psychedelic spirituality for many, but he worries that it also risks confusing the public and law enforcement.

我向迷幻律师约翰·拉普询问了这个问题。

I asked the psychedelic lawyer John Rapp about this.

我对那些对戴夫·霍奇斯有意见的人会说：如果你不帮助人们做出更好的选择，大多数人最终还是会转向酒精、可卡因和鸦片，而这些毒品夺走了我儿子的生命。

What I would say to people who have problems with Dave Hodges is, well, if you don't help people make some better decisions, most people are gonna end up with alcohol and cocaine and opiates that killed my son.

在更广阔的世界里，把高剂量的蘑菇交给某人，而不是可卡因或其他毒品，对我来说这显然是一个更容易的选择。

And in the overall world, handing somebody a high dose of mushrooms versus cocaine or whatever, that to me seems like an easy choice.

因此，在很多方面，我认为齐多尔不仅是一个真正的教会——我相信它确实是——而且也是一项复杂而成功的减害实践。

So in many ways, I see Zydore not just being a true church, which I believe it is, but also an elaborate and successful exercise in harm reduction.

毕竟，有一种观点认为，齐多尔通过提供比黑市上更可靠、更经过筛选的迷幻物质，提供了一种市场服务。

After all, there's an argument that Zidor is providing a kind of market service by supplying more consistently vetted psychedelics than stuff you could get on the black market.