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这条信息来自BBC的新播客《界面》。
This message comes from the BBC with its new podcast, the interface.
每周四，三位顶尖科技记者探讨科技如何重塑你的每周生活和整个世界。
Every Thursday, three leading tech journalists explore how tech is rewiring your week and your world.
请在bbc.com或您收听播客的任何平台收听《界面》。
Listen to the interface on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
播客。
Podcasts.
这是NPR的《星球金钱》。
This is Planet Money from NPR.
请听。
Listen.
我从未如此努力地想要联系上某人。
I have never worked so hard to get someone on the phone.
我正从袋子里吃豆子。
I'm eating beans out of a bag.
这就是今天生活的糟糕程度。
That's how bad life is today.
她正从袋子里吃炒豆子。
She's eating refried beans out of a bag.
连罐头都不是。
Not even out of a can.
就是从袋子里吃的。
It's out of a bag.
直接从袋子里冷吃。
Just cold out of
连勺子都没有。
not even a spoon.
就像我剪开袋子的一角，然后在休息时把豆子挤进嘴里。
Like, it's like I've, like, cut a corner edge, and I'm, like, squirting them in my mouth on my break.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
格蕾丝兰德·巴斯基林经历了许多漫长而忙碌的日子。
Graceland Baskarin has had some long busy days.
我的意思是，你一直很忙，因为你几乎是少数几位精通格陵兰等地的专家之一。
I mean, you've been busy because you're, like, one of very few experts on, among other things, Greenland.
还有矿物。
And minerals.
这是一个非常小的交汇点。
It's a very small nexus.
格蕾丝·林是一位全球稀有矿物领域的矿业经济学家。
Grace Lynn is a mining economist who has worked in rare earth minerals globally.
她是战略与国际研究中心关键矿物安全项目的主任。
She's the director of the Critical Minerals Security Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
这些稀有元素在哪里？
Where are these rare earths?
比如，它们在地下多深的地方？
Like, how deep into the ground?
它们长什么样？
What do they look like?
你见过吗？
Have you seen them?
它们会闪闪发亮吗？
Is it sparkly?
它们很亮吗？
Is it shiny?
就是，它们到底长什么样？
Like, what does it look like?
你知道吗，这些岩石这么值钱，还挺有意思的。
You know, it's funny for how valuable these rocks are.
它们看起来非常灰暗。
They look like they're very they're very gray.
所以它们看起来就像碎石，小小的灰色石头？
So they just look like gravel, like little gray rocks?
差不多吧。
Kind of.
它们不是金色闪亮的。
They're not golden sparkly.
它们不像钻石那样闪亮，但却极其珍贵。
They're not shiny like a diamond, but they're incredibly valuable.
是的。
Yeah.
稀土矿物是些非常非常关键的小石头，从军用战斗机、导弹、核潜艇，到手机屏幕、电脑硬盘、汽车安全带，都离不开它们。
Rare earth minerals are little rocks that are very, very critical for everything from military fighter jets, missiles, and nuclear submarines to the display on your phone, the hard drive on your computer, the seat belts in cars.
你有镨钕合金和钕。
You have presodymium and neodymium.
你还有镝、铽、钬。
You have dysprosium, terbium, holmium.
格蕾西琳认识全部这17种矿物。
Gracelyn knows all 17 of these minerals.
她去过矿场，亲手接触过稀土，还曾经试图闻过它们。
She's been in mines, touched rare earths, tried to smell them once.
然后我就把它们吸进鼻子了。
And then I ended up snorting them.
我的同事说，你知道吗，你现在正在吸金属粉末。
And my colleague was like, you know, you're like snorting metal right now.
对吧？
Right?
抱歉。
Sorry.
等一下。
One second.
怎么了？
What's up?
现在每个人都想得到格雷森的注意。
Everyone wants Grayson's attention right now.
好的。
Okay.
着火的是什么？
What's on fire?
因为她专长的领域——稀土和格陵兰，现在被唐纳德·特朗普总统推到了全球聚光灯下。
Because the thing she is an expert on, rare earths and Greenland, president Donald Trump has thrown into the global spotlight.
美国所要求的只是一个叫格陵兰的地方。
All The United States is asking for is a place called Greenland.
在过去一个月里，特朗普拒绝排除以武力夺取格陵兰的可能性。
In the last month, Trump refused to rule out taking Greenland by force.
他向欧洲国家加征关税，除非丹麦同意将格陵兰卖给美国。
He slapped tariffs on European countries unless Denmark agreed to sell Greenland to The US.
然后他又撤回了关税，说：好吧。
Then he walked the tariffs back and said, okay.
我不会武力夺取格陵兰。
I won't take Greenland by force.
但他仍然坚持认为自己必须控制格陵兰。
But he has still insisted that he needs to control Greenland.
格陵兰在地理位置上处于非常优越的位置。
Greenland is in a really great position geographically.
它位于一条北极航运路线上，随着冰盖融化，这条路线变得越来越重要；而且，它还地处世界关键战略要地，正好位于美国、俄罗斯和中国之间。
It's along an Arctic shipping route that is becoming more and more important as the ice sheets melt, and it's also just, like, strategically in a very important place in the world because it sits between The US and Russia and China.
如果他们 hypothetically 向美国发射导弹，导弹最短的路径就会经过格陵兰。
And if they were to, hypothetically, shoot a missile at The US, the shortest path for that missile would be over Greenland.
当然，格陵兰还有那些看似枯燥却极其珍贵的灰色岩石——稀土矿物。
And then, of course, Greenland has those little boring but super valuable gray rocks, the the rare earth minerals.
所以，从地理位置来看，考虑到中国和俄罗斯的态势，再加上稀土资源。
So position, given where China and Russia are sitting, and rare earths.
我们正在追赶自己的弱点。
We're chasing our our weakness here.
大家好，欢迎收听《星球金钱》。
Hello, and welcome to Planet Money.
我是莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
I'm Sarah Gonzales.
我是玛丽·柴尔兹。
And I'm Mary Childs.
格陵兰已表示，它不对外出售。
Greenland has said it is not for sale.
丹麦也表示，它甚至没有法律权利出售格陵兰。
Denmark has said it can't even legally sell Greenland.
上周末，在慕尼黑的安全会议上，美国议员们花了大量时间试图淡化特朗普的一些威胁言论。
And over the weekend at a security conference in Munich, US lawmakers spent a lot of time trying to walk back some of Trump's threats.
但特朗普是否能、是否会、或是否应该试图控制或购买一个不愿出售的领土，并不是这里最有趣的问题。
But whether Trump can or will or should try to control or purchase a territory that doesn't wanna be sold is not the interesting question here.
真正有趣的是，我们是如何走到这一步的，以及我们如何能体面地从中脱身。
What is interesting is how we got to this moment and how we might gracefully get out of it.
今天在节目中，我们聊聊美国在稀土竞赛中是如何掉队的。
Today on the show, how The US dropped the ball on the rare earths race.
也就是说，为什么美国还没有获得它想要的矿物？
Like, why doesn't The US already have the minerals it wants?
另外，美国还有一种方式可以在不威胁购买或占领整个领土的情况下获取地点。
Also, one way The US gets locations without threatening to buy or take over an entire territory.
是的。
Yeah.
你可能没有意识到，但美国一直在扩张其领土。
You may not realize it, but The US is always expanding its territory.
在我们谈到格陵兰最近因稀土矿物而突然出名之前
Before we get to the rare earth minerals that Greenland has become suddenly famous for
我从未去过格陵兰。
I've never been to Greenland.
很少有人会去格陵兰。
Not very many people will ever go to Greenland.
比如，给我们描述一下。
Like, describe it for us.
这是一个非常宁静的地方。
It's a it's a very calm place.
这是克里斯蒂安·凯尔森。
This is Christian Kelsen.
它拥有庞大的峡湾系统。
It's got this huge fjord system of fjords.
你有山脉、极光和鲸鱼。
You've got the mountains, the northern lights, the whales.
哦，当然。
Oh, sure.
我们有座头鲸和极光。
We have humpback whales and northern lights.
这是莎拉·奥尔svik。
And this is Sarah Olsvik.
昨晚我们看到了极光，在我们的传统信仰中。
Yesterday night we saw northern lights in our traditional beliefs.
这是我们的祖先在踢足球，因此这其实是一件非常可怕的事情，因为他们用的是头骨。
These are our ancestors playing soccer and therefore that's actually a very scary thing because they are doing so with a skull.
如果你吹口哨，他们会来把你的人头砍掉。
And if you whistle, they will come and cut off your head.
但极光真的很美。
So but they're beautiful, the northern lights.
格陵兰约90%的人口是原住民，因纽特人，莱萨查人。
About 90% of Greenland is indigenous, Inuit, Leisacha.
克里斯蒂安是少数群体。
Christian is in the minority.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他们彼此认识。
And they know each other.
我们的孩子去同一个游泳俱乐部，诸如此类的事情。
Well, our kids go to the same swim club and that kind of things.
这是一座小镇。
It's a small town.
格陵兰只有五万六到五万七千人，人口比爱荷华州的达文波特还少。
There are just 56 to 57,000 people in Greenland, a smaller population than Dubuque, Iowa.
所有人都住在沿海地区。
And everyone is on the coast.
该国80%的面积被冰覆盖，所以没人住在中部。
80% of the country is covered in ice, so nobody lives in the middle.
基本上，没有交通？
Basically, no traffic?
我不在高速公路上花时间。
I don't spend time on motorways.
没有高速公路？
There's no highways?
是的。
Yep.
是的。
Yep.
没有。
No.
一条高速公路都没有？
There's not one highway?
没有。
No.
城镇之间没有连接。
Towns are not connected.
所以如果我们需要去另一个城镇，我会乘坐直升机、飞机或船。
So if we need to go to another town, I'll take a helicopter, a plane, or a boat.
哇。
Wow.
就是这样。
That's it.
是的。
Yeah.
格陵兰及其原住民于1721年被丹麦殖民。
Greenland and its indigenous people were colonized by Denmark in 1721.
如今，从技术上讲，它仍然是丹麦王国的一部分，但格陵兰拥有自治权。
Now technically, it is still a part of the Kingdom Of Denmark, but Greenland is self governing.
它有点像国中之国。
It's kinda like a separate nation within a nation.
它拥有自己民选的政府，在国内事务和外交政策上享有高度自治权。
It has its own democratically elected government, a lot of autonomy over domestic affairs, over foreign policy.
它有自己的语言，这一点在当下尤为重要。
It has its own language, and this part is very relevant right now.
格陵兰没有人拥有土地。
Nobody in Greenland owns land.
你实际上无法在格陵兰拥有土地。
You actually cannot own land in Greenland.
如果你要建房子，可以申请在特定地点建造的许可，但你不能拥有房子所在的土地。
If you're building a house, you can get a permit to build your house in a specific spot, but you cannot own the land that it's on.
这源于因纽特人的信念：土地不可买卖，而应共享。
This is rooted in the Inuit belief that land is not for sale, but something to be shared.
这在语法上也意味着格陵兰的土地属于人民。
Which is our way grammatically also saying that Galashid Nunat, Greenland, is owned by the people.
在这片无人拥有土地的岛屿上，地下深处却埋藏着人人都想拥有的东西。
In this island where no one owns land, there is something deep, deep underground that everyone does want to own.
如果你站在格陵兰，就在你脚下大约一英里深的地方，有时甚至两英里深，那里是巨大而坚实的冰层。
If you were standing in Greenland, a mile down below your feet, sometimes two whole miles down, it is just massive, solid ice.
而在那层冰之下，封存着稀土元素。
And locked underneath that ice are the rare earths.
因此，我们联系了关键矿物专家格蕾西琳·巴斯卡林，她当时正从袋子里吃豆子，让我们了解美国为何如今如此觊觎格陵兰的来龙去脉。
That's why we called Gracelyn Basquarin, the critical minerals expert who was eating beans out of a bag, to walk us through the story of how we got to this moment where The US seems to be coveting Greenland.
格陵兰特别吸引人的一点是，它不仅拥有稀土元素，还拥有重稀土元素。
So one of the things that makes Greenland particularly attractive is that they don't just have rare earths, which they do, but they have heavy rare earths.
稀土元素分为两类：轻稀土和重稀土。
There are two types of rare earths, light rare earths and heavy rare earths.
美国在加利福尼亚确实拥有大量轻稀土元素。
And The US does have a lot of light rare earths in California.
但从地质学角度来看，格雷森表示，我们在重稀土方面资源非常匮乏。
But geologically speaking, Grayson says we are not very well endowed with heavies.
而且，美国甚至根本缺乏将重稀土元素加工成所需产品的技术能力。
But also The US doesn't even really have the capability to turn heavy rare earths into things we need.
美国正在努力解决这个问题，但尚未实现。
The US is working on it, but is not there yet.
全球约90%的稀土是在中国加工的。
About 90% of the world's rare earths are processed in China.
美国的稀土就是从中国进口的。
That's where The US gets them.
中国几乎垄断了这一领域。
China has a near monopoly.
因此，如果中国决定像去年春天那样限制对美国的稀土出口，那将是一个糟糕的局面。
So if China decides to restrict exports of them to The US like they did last spring, that is a bad situation.
当时正值中美贸易战期间，双方你来我往，美国感受到了压力。
This was when The US and China were really tit for tatting each other during their trade war last year, and The US felt it.
在中国实施这些限制不到八周后，我们就因为短缺而停止了在芝加哥生产福特探险者。
Less than eight weeks after China imposed those restrictions, we stopped manufacturing Ford Explorers in Chicago because of that shortage.
是的。
Yeah.
工厂关闭了大约一周，但我们的重稀土供应链中断了数月。
The plant shut down for about a week, but our heavy rare earth supply chain was disrupted for months.
美国对中国的矿物依赖，有着深远的历史原因。
And this US dependence on China for minerals, there's a long history that led us here.
格雷森说，这段历史源于美国决定不优先发展稀土产业。
A history, Grayson says, of The US deciding not to prioritize rare earths.
从五十年代到八十年代中期，美国是全球最大的稀土生产国。
From the fifties up to the mid eighties, The US was the top rare earth producer.
美国曾主导稀土元素的开采和精炼。
It led the production and refining of rare earth elements.
但后来中国开始开采稀土，美国逐渐退出了这一领域。
But then China started mining rare earths, and The US ended up backing off.
把稀土产业让给了中国。
Left it to China.
中国就这么做了，而我们则乐于购买含有稀土的中国产商品。
China's just done it, and we were happy to buy Chinese produced goods that had rare earths in them.
1996年，美国关闭了矿业局，不再将矿产资源列为战略重点。
In 1996, The US closed the Bureau of Mines, and we stopped making minerals a strategic focus.
而中国却做了完全相反的事。
Now China did the opposite.
对吧？
Right?
从上世纪九十年代初开始，他们就开始在全球收购矿山。
Starting about the early nineties, they started buying mines all around the world.
他们把这些矿产运回中国，在国内进行加工处理。
And they would take those minerals and export them back to China, and there, those minerals were processed.
事实上，得益于过去三十多年建立的主导地位，中国如今享受着矿产安全。
And really, China is now enjoying mineral security as a result of the thirty odd years that it has been building its dominance.
中国还在积极争取格陵兰的矿产资源。
And China has also been courting Greenland's minerals.
但中国的做法与特朗普总统的策略截然不同。
But China's approach has been very different from president Trump's.
中国一直在悄然渗透格陵兰的基础设施。
China has kind of been creeping into Greenland infrastructures.
中国一直在做它常做的事。
China's been doing the thing it often does.
它正试图在格陵兰大规模投资基础设施，以期未来获取格陵兰的自然资源。
It is trying to invest significantly in infrastructure in Greenland as a way to later get some of Greenland's natural resources.
中国先搞基础设施的做法，正是它征服世界大部分地区的方式。
China's approach by doing infrastructure first is how it has conquered much of the world.
对吧？
Right?
因此，‘一带一路’倡议正是通过在非洲、拉丁美洲和中东进行重大基础设施投资，从而建立立足点的方式。
So the Belt Road Initiative, BRI, is how it has established footholds in Africa, Latin America, The Middle East, is by making these significant infrastructure investments that then give it power.
基础设施就是软实力。
Infrastructure is soft power.
中国也一直在试图以软实力的方式渗透格陵兰的基础设施。
And China's been trying to soft power its way into Greenland's infrastructure too.
所以如果你看一下过去十年，中国一直试图投资于格陵兰的机场和一座废弃的海军基地。
So if you look at the last ten years, China has tried to invest in Greenland's airports, an abandoned naval station.
至于矿产本身，是的，中国对这两种矿产志在必得。
And when it comes to the minerals themselves, yeah, China's after those two.
有一家澳大利亚公司正在规划土地开发。
There's an Australian company making plans for land.
2018年，一家中国稀土公司与这家澳大利亚公司签署协议，负责加工它们计划开采的矿产。
And in 2018, a Chinese rare earth company signed this agreement with that Australian company to process the minerals that they plan to extract.
这家中国公司甚至是该大型矿产项目第二大股东。
This Chinese company is even the second largest shareholder in that big mine project.
中国下的是长远棋。
China plays a long game.
我们是否担心中国在格陵兰超越我们？
Are we nervous about China beating us in Greenland?
这是否是一种担忧，看起来是这样吗？
Is that a fear, it seems like?
我们总是担心中国在新兴地区超越我们。
We're always nervous about China outpacing us, particularly in new jurisdictions.
你确实开始意识到，好吧。
You do start to see like, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
比如，如果我们真的需要它们，而中国主要掌控着它们，中国开始限制出口，现在又试图介入格陵兰的稀土资源，你就能明白，这可能对我们的国家安全至关重要。
Like, if it's like we really need them and China mainly has them and China started limiting them and now China is trying to, you know, get in on Greenland's rare earths, you can see like, maybe this is very important to our national security.
但美国特别需要格陵兰的矿产吗？
But does The US need Greenland's minerals in particular?
会不会出现这样一个时刻，比如中国说：我们不给了。
Is there a point in which it becomes so important to, like, let's say China's like, we're done.
我们什么都不给你们了。
We're not giving you anything.
到了那种地步，你会想：你知道吗？
Where you would go, like, you know what?
我们必须设法购买格陵兰，或者武力夺取，因为这太重要了。
We have to try to buy Greenland or take it by force because that's how important it is.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
她说。
She says.
尤其是如果这会在欧洲制造混乱的话。
Especially if it's gonna create chaos in Europe.
这就是原因。
And here is why.
这是一个三部分的回答。
It is a three part answer.
首先，美国不需要通过控制格陵兰来获取其矿物资源，因为格陵兰愿意与美国合作。
First of all, The US does not need to take control of Greenland for its minerals because Greenland is happy to partner with The US.
格陵兰负责商业和矿产资源的部长实际上表示，他希望与美国合作，显然是优先于中国。
Greenland's minister for business and mineral resources has actually said it wants to work with The US, seemingly over China.
丹麦有时在美国的鼓励下，实际上阻碍了中国在格陵兰的投资项目。
Denmark, sometimes with encouragement from The US, has actually stalled Chinese investment projects in Greenland.
格陵兰更愿意与西方国家做生意。
Greenland prefers to do business with western countries.
是的。
Yeah.
即使在特朗普2019年第一个任期内，格陵兰也说：欢迎前来。
Even during Trump's first administration in 2019, Greenland was like, come on in.
看看四周。
Look around.
美国与格陵兰签署了这项谅解备忘录，共同开展地质调查，并交换科学与技术知识以开发这些资源。
The US signed this MOU with Greenland to do this, like, geological survey together and exchange scientific and technical knowledge to develop these resources.
此外，一家美国公司刚刚收购了格陵兰的一个大型稀土矿床，而不是澳大利亚的那个，主要目的是遏制中国投资。
And then also a US company just purchased this big rare earth deposit in Greenland, not the Australian one, largely to ward off Chinese investment.
但第二个原因在于，即使控制或仅与格陵兰合作，也无法解决美国当前的矿物问题，因为在格陵兰开采稀土可能需要数十年，据一些估计，成本可能高达一万亿美元。
But a second reason why controlling or even just working with Greenland does not solve The US's current mineral problem is because it can take decades to extract the rare earths there, and it could cost a trillion dollars according to some estimates.
不过，格陵兰认为这个数字可能严重低估，因为当地基础设施极其匮乏。
Though Graceland thinks that could be a major underestimate because there's just so little infrastructure in Greenland.
需要修建道路、铁路，
There needs to be roads built, rail built,
更多的港口。
more ports.
在冰天雪地的荒无人烟之地提供电力。
Electricity in the around freezing cold middle of nowhere.
北极被认为环境极其严酷。
The Arctic is considered so punishing.
那里从来没有人开采过这些矿物。
No one there has ever even gotten any of these minerals.
所以我们从未在格陵兰开采过稀土吗？
So we've never mined rare earths in Greenland?
没有。
No.
我的意思是，根本没人开采过？
Like, no nobody has?
没有。
No.
她说，格陵兰根本不是美国矿物问题的短期甚至中期解决方案。
She says Greenland is just not a short or even medium term solution to The US's minerals problem.
如果中国今天切断供应，而我国家只有三个月的库存，格陵兰也解决不了这个问题。
If China cuts me off today and I have three months supply as a country, Greenland is not an answer to that.
巴西、澳大利亚，未来两三年，沙特阿拉伯，如果急需，它们现在就能提供稀土，而不是格陵兰。
Brazil, Australia, the next couple years, Saudi Arabia, they will have rare earths now if we need them in a pinch, not Greenland.
在当前全球相互依存的矿产格局中，格雷森表示，你实际上需要其他国家。
In the current globally interdependent world of minerals, Grayson says, you actually need other countries.
这正是她的核心观点。
That's her big point.
她提出的第三个、也是最后一个关键理由是：控制格陵兰或格陵兰的矿产资源并不能解决美国的矿产问题，因为控制任何地方的矿产来源都不是解决方案。
Her third and last big reason why controlling Greenland or even just Greenland's minerals will not solve The US mineral problem is because controlling the source of minerals anywhere is not the solution.
即使一个国家拥有世界上所有的稀土资源，也不可能单独抗衡中国的主导地位。
No one country is gonna counter China's dominance alone even if you have all the rare earths in the world in your country.
仅仅拥有地质资源并不意味着你就拥有矿产安全，因为我还需要加工这些矿产。
Just because you have geology doesn't mean you have mineral security because I've gotta process those minerals.
而这些技术能力也并非存在于一个国家之中。
And those technological capabilities also don't exist in one country.
因此，我们看到澳大利亚、沙特阿拉伯、印度、加拿大等国家正成为加工技术领域的重要潜在合作伙伴。
So we see countries like Australia, Saudi Arabia, India, Canada emerging as really key potential partners for processing technology.
因此，无论是地质控制还是技术控制，都不可能由单一国家长期维持。
So it really is the fact that both geological and technological control can't be sustained with a single country.
因此，合作变得必不可少。
So cooperation becomes required.
她说，美国实现矿物安全的唯一途径是合作与贸易协定。
The only way to mineral security for The US, she says, is cooperation, trade agreements.
单独一国不可能实现矿物安全。
There is no way to be mineral secure solo.
这正是美国过去获取所需自然资源的常用方式。
And this is how The US has often gotten the natural resources it needs in the past.
对吧？
Right?
通过贸易。
Through trade.
当然，也通过胁迫或战争，但同时也通过贸易。
So, of course, also through coercion or war, but also through trade.
我们曾用军事保护换取沙特阿拉伯的石油。
We've traded military protection for Saudi Arabian oil.
我们通过友好合作，找到了从其他国家获取所需资源的创造性方式。
We found creative ways to get the resources we want from other countries by playing nice.
比如，在二十世纪的某个时期，我们曾用美国的黄油换取牙买加的铝土矿，进行黄油换铝土矿的交易，因为我们急需铝土矿来制造国防技术。
Like, there was a time during the twentieth century that we actually were trading butter from America to bauxite in Jamaica, a butter for bauxite trade, because we needed bauxite to make defense technologies.
因此，我们曾有过非常多富有创意的安排来获取矿物。
So we have had incredibly creative arrangements to get minerals.
所以，矿物确实非常重要。
So minerals, yes, very important.
但格陵兰的矿物，虽然不错，但并非绝对关键。
But Greenland's minerals, nice to have, but not absolutely critical.
而且有多种外交途径可以获取它们。
And plenty of diplomatic ways to get them.
尽管特朗普政府曾谈论过格陵兰的矿物，但特朗普总统也承认，格陵兰的稀土矿深埋在厚厚的冰层之下，开采极其困难，这并不是他想要格陵兰的原因。
And while the Trump administration has talked about Greenland's minerals, president Trump has also acknowledged that Greenland's rare earths are very hard to get to deep under all of the ice, and that that's not the reason he wants Greenland.
他真正看重的是其战略位置。
That it's about the strategic location part of it all.
对吧？
Right?
格陵兰在世界上的地理位置对于导弹防御来说。
Just the the physical place in the world that Greenland sits for missile defense.
所以，这就是想要获得格陵兰的理由吗？
So is that a reason to, you know, get Greenland?
广告之后继续。
That's after the break.
特朗普总统已经明确表示，他知道格陵兰并不是稀土的唯一来源。
President Trump has made it clear he understands Greenland isn't the only source of rare earths.
稀土其实并不稀有，而且也不是最容易获取的资源。
Rare earths are actually not that rare and also not the easiest place to get them.
但与此同时，他表示，比起矿物，格陵兰对国家安全和国际安全更重要。
But at the same time, he said that more than minerals, Greenland is important for national security and international security.
格陵兰是一个广阔、几乎完全无人居住且未开发的地区。
Greenland is a vast, almost entirely uninhabited and undeveloped territory.
它位于美国、俄罗斯和中国之间的关键战略要地，却毫无防御。
It's sitting undefended in a key strategic location between The United States, Russia, and China.
没错，它就正好处在正中央。
That's exactly where it is right smack in the middle.
实际上并不是毫无防御。
Not actually undefended.
它是丹麦的一部分，也是北约的成员。
It is part of Denmark, part of NATO.
而且也是有人居住的。
Also, is inhabited.
但好吧。
But okay.
继续。
Moving on.
这种对战略要地的控制欲，是世界历史及其边界变迁的重要组成部分。
This desire to take control of strategic location, it is a big part of the history of the world and its borders.
许多战争都是因战略要地和资源而爆发的，比如国家A想要国家B的自然资源或其地理位置。
Many wars have been started over strategic location and resources, like country a wants country b's natural resources or their physical place
在世界上。
in the world.
但如果没有战争，也没有实际购买——而人们又说这不会发生——美国为了安全真的需要一块格陵兰岛吗？
But without war and without actually buying, which, again, people are saying won't happen, does The US need a piece of Greenland for security?
为了解决这个问题，我们联系了《如何隐藏一个帝国》一书的作者。
To sort that out, we called up the author of a book called How to Hide an Empire.
我叫丹尼尔·因雷瓦尔。
My name is Daniel Imrevar.
你能把你的姓氏再说慢一点吗？我想学会怎么发音。
I'd say your last name slower for me, so I can pronounce it.
好的。
Great.
是的。
Yes.
W 发音像 V，所以是 Imervar，Imervar，Imervar。
It's the w is pronounced as a v, so it is Imervar, Imervar, Imervar.
你得说三遍才能写下来。
You actually have to say it three times to write up.
姓 Imervar 的人太少了，我和他们每一个都有我能具体说明的亲属关系。
The number of Imervars are so few that I am related to every one of them by ways that I can specify.
酷。
Cool.
太神奇了。
It's wild.
我的姓氏也是这样。
Same same with my last name.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我可能见过你的一些亲戚。
I think I may have met some of your relatives.
丹尼尔·伊姆拉瓦尔说，在世界历史上，国家常常通过武力扩张领土。
Daniel Imravar says, often in the history of the world, countries have expanded their territories largely through force.
但美国的大部分领土实际上是通过购买获得的。
But a lot of The US territory actually came from purchases.
一部分是通过战争获得的，但很多是通过购买获得的。
Some of came from war, but a lot of it came from purchase.
一方面，你可能会想，这相当文明。
And on the one hand, you can think, well, this is rather civilized.
比如，我宁愿看到国家之间通过谈判达成协议，而不是互相开战。
Like, I would rather see countries just make deals, than go to war with each other.
另一方面，你会意识到，在几乎所有情况下，被出售的不仅仅是土地，还有人民。
On the other hand, you realize that what is being sold in almost every case is not just land but people.
美国最后一次大规模购买领土及其居民的交易发生在一百多年前。
The last major US purchase of territory and all its people was more than a hundred years ago.
1917年，美国以2500万美元（相当于今天的6.4亿美元左右）从丹麦手中购买了丹麦西印度群岛，即现在的美国维尔京群岛。
In 1917 when The US bought the Danish West Indies, now The US Virgin Islands from, yes, Denmark for $25,000,000, like 640 ish million dollars into daytimes.
当时，美国担心德国正将丹麦西印度群岛视为理想的海军作战基地。
Back then, The US was worried that Germany was eyeing the Danish West Indies as an ideal base for naval warfare.
因此，美国开始施压丹麦，要求其出售这些加勒比海岛屿。
So The US started pressuring Denmark to sell these islands in the Caribbean.
但在2026年购买一个自治且自我治理的领土呢？
But buying an autonomous self governing territory in 2026?
在过去
For the past
八十年来，自第二次世界大战以来，我们这个世界一直秉持着这样的共识：无论边界是如何划定的，无论是通过战争、殖民还是其他方式获得的，我们都将从此尊重这些边界。
eighty years, since World War two, we, the world, have operated under this understanding that, okay, however borders were drawn, whether they were acquired by war or through colonization or any other way, we're just gonna, like, respect them from here on out.
这也是为什么当国家入侵他国时，会引发巨大反响的原因之一。
Which is part of why when countries invade each other, it's a big deal.
我们不是已经把世界瓜分完毕了吗？
Haven't we, like, divvied up the world already?
谁拥有什么，难道还不清楚吗？
Like, who owns what?
是的
Yeah.
国际秩序就是，我们都尊重现有的边界和疆域，就这样定了。
And international order is like, we're all gonna respect whatever boundaries there are, whatever borders there are, and like, it is what it is.
不是吗？
Is that not?
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，这要看情况。
I mean, depends.
是的。
Yes.
但也不完全是。
But kind of.
这就是我们想和丹尼尔谈谈的原因。
This is the reason we wanted to talk to Daniel.
因为在他的书中，他谈到了美国实际上一直在以另一种方式扩张其边境。
Because in his book, he talks about this whole other way that The US does actually expand its borders all the time.
只不过是以一种更低调的方式。
Still, just in like a quieter way.
丹尼尔说，我们所有人熟知的美国版图根本不能代表美国的实际领土和殖民地。
Daniel says the shape of The United States we all know is not at all representative of the actual territories and colonies of The United States.
它不仅仅是那个版图，还包括全球各地成百上千个小点。
It's that plus hundreds of little dots all over the globe.
而我们获得这些其他小点的方式，是通过一种购买领土的模式，美国至今仍在设立军事基地时使用这种方式。
And the way we got all those other little dots is through a version of buying territory that The US still does when it sets up military bases.
我们不确定具体有多少，也不确定它们的确切位置。
We're not sure how many, and we're not sure exactly where they all are.
军方承认大约有500个，而记者们又发现了大约200个。
The military admits to roughly 500 of them, and journalists have found about 200 more.
但你可能只是在格陵兰的街上散步，然后突然发现：哦，那是个军事基地。
But you could just be, like, walking down the street in Greenland and then be like, oh, that's a military base.
我们知道这个海湾，也知道格陵兰岛上的一个基地。
We know about the bay we know about one of the bases in Greenland.
等等。
Wait.
但，比如说，是的。
But, like Yeah.
这并不意味着美国拥有那片领土。
That doesn't mean The US owns that part of the country.
对吧？
Right?
从私人财产的角度来看，美国可能就像你拥有自己房屋所建土地那样拥有这些土地。
So as a matter of private property, it could be that The United States owns in the way that you would own the land on which your house is built.
更大的问题是，美国是否拥有主权，也就是说，那片土地是否属于美国领土？
The bigger question is, does The United States have sovereignty, which is, is that land US territory?
通常，答案是否定的。
And, generally, the answer is no.
这些基地是由外国国家提供的。
These are bases that are being hosted by foreign countries.
但美国对其基地通常拥有极其广泛的使用权，以至于看起来非常像主权。
But The United States generally has such profound rights uses over its bases that it starts to look a lot like sovereignty.
比如古巴的关塔那摩湾。
Like Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
是的。
Yeah.
它位于古巴。
It's in Cuba.
多年来，古巴一直要求美国撤离。
And Cuba has been asking The US to leave for years.
但美国就是不肯走。
But The US just won't.
绝不。
Nope.
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那么，这块土地到底属于谁的呢？
So whose piece of country is it really?
对。
Right.
那是美国领土吗？
Is that US territory?
那是古巴领土吗？
Is that Cuban territory?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，美国决定该地区适用哪些规则。
So, like, The US decides what rules apply on that territory.
这归谁管辖？
Whose jurisdiction is it?
飘扬的是哪国的国旗？
Whose flag is flown?
这可能是个敏感话题。
This can be a touchy subject.
我特别喜欢的一个例子是，当美国在沙特阿拉伯建立基地时，会从建筑顶部直接向外伸出美国国旗。
And one example that I just love is that when The United States is setting up on a base in Saudi Arabia, it arranges architecturally to have its flag come straight out from the top of the building.
这样做的原因是，沙特政府仍可以说国旗没有触碰到沙特的土地。
And the reason is that the Saudi government can still say that the flag has not touched Saudi soil.
谈到格陵兰时，丹尼尔说，是的。
When it comes to Greenland, Daniel says, yeah.
它位于一个非常具有战略重要性的位置，他能理解美国为何希望在那里部署大规模军事力量。
It is placed in a very strategically important spot, and he can see why The US would want to have a big military presence.
但美国在那里确实有大规模的军事存在。
But The US does have a big military presence there.
记得你如果在格陵兰随便走走时会看到的那个吗？
Remember the one you'd find if you were just walking around Greenland.
美国拥有这一点。
The United States has that.
它在格陵兰有一个庞大的基地，习惯了这个基地的存在，并且有权建立更多基地。
It has a massive base in Greenland, and it's used to that base, and it has the right to have more bases.
实际上，这个位于格陵兰的军事基地上同时飘扬着丹麦和美国的国旗，有趣的是，这里有时会经历持续的黑暗，有时则会经历持续的白昼。
And actually both Danish and US flags fly over this military base in Greenland, which is, fun fact, in constant darkness sometimes and then constant daylight other times.
这个位于格陵兰的大型美军基地用于导弹预警、导弹防御和太空监视。
And this big US military base in Greenland is used for missile early warning, missile defense, space surveillance.
这是丹尼尔的观点。
And here is Daniel's point.
美国如果愿意，可以在格陵兰建立更多基地，部署更多导弹预警系统。
The US can build more bases in Greenland, have more missile early warning systems if it wants.
自1951年以来，美国在格陵兰的防务用途上几乎享有无限制的准入权。
Since 1951, The US has had nearly unchecked access to Greenland for defense purposes.
只要通知格陵兰和丹麦，美国就可以在格陵兰自由开展防务活动。
It can already move freely in Greenland for defense as long as it lets Greenland and Denmark know.
它已经获得许可，可以扩大其军事存在。
It has permission already to expand its military presence.
因此，没有必要通过殖民格陵兰来在那里建立基地。
So there's no need to colonize Greenland in order to have a base there.
但特朗普自从再次上台以来，一直在谈论扩大美国的势力范围。
But Trump has been talking about expanding The US since he came into office again.
他说他想让加拿大成为第50个州，夺取巴拿马运河——不是整个巴拿马，只是运河部分，接管加沙，当然还有委内瑞拉。
He said he wanted to make Canada the 50 state, take the Panama Canal, not all of Panama, just the canal part, take over Gaza, and then, of course, there's Venezuela.
特朗普总统派美军前往委内瑞拉，俘虏了其领导人，然后宣布美国将接管委内瑞拉，尽管委内瑞拉的大部分政权实际上仍然存在。
President Trump sent American troops to Venezuela, captured its leader, and then declared that The US would now run Venezuela, though much of the Venezuelan regime is actually still intact.
这是一种硬实力手段，而不是丹尼尔和格雷西兰所说的、能够帮助美国实现目标的软实力策略，比如投资格陵兰的基础设施、签订贸易协议，甚至扩大军事存在。
And that is a hard power move, not the kind of soft power move that Daniel and Graceland both say could get The US what it wants, like investing in infrastructure in Greenland or trade agreements or even expanding military presence.
对丹尼尔而言，他能对特朗普对格陵兰的关注做出的最善意的解释是，特朗普或许设想了一个各国不再合作的世界，在这个世界里，软实力不再适用于商业往来。
For Daniel, the most charitable way he can make sense of president Trump's focus on Greenland is that Trump maybe imagines that we're heading to a world where countries don't cooperate with each other anymore, where soft power is no longer the way to do business.
一个贸易将被封闭的世界，在这个世界里，任何你无法物理控制的东西，你就无法获得其使用权。
A world where trade will be closed off, where anything that you don't physically control, you won't have access to.
如果我们正朝着这个方向发展，美国就有必要在资源争夺爆发前，牢牢掌控目前所缺乏的关键资源。
And if we're heading in that direction, it behooves The United States to lock down resources that it needs and doesn't have now, before there is a scramble for them.
如果美国开始通过武力夺取土地，或试图购买领土以独占其资源，你可以说这将极大地推动我们进入一个不再相互贸易的世界。
Now if The US were to start taking land by force or even try to buy up territories to lock away its resources for itself, you could argue that that would do quite a lot to push us into that world where people don't trade with each other anymore.
而这个世界，正是之前提到的原住民格陵兰人扎哈·奥尔德斯维格所担忧的世界。
And that world, that is the world that Zaha Oldsvigg, the indigenous Greenlander from earlier, that's what she's concerned about.
对我们来说，这显然不仅仅关乎格陵兰。
It was very clear for us that this is something that is bigger than Greenland.
这将对更广泛的联盟产生深远且不可预知的影响。
This it will have ramifications, unknown consequences to a much broader alliance.
她说，特朗普如此强硬地宣称需要格陵兰，已经让吞并其他国家的想法显得没那么禁忌了。
She says the fact that Trump so aggressively asserted that he needs Greenland has already made the idea of taking over other countries seem a little less taboo.
她说，这正是格陵兰人民真正担忧的事情。
She says that's really what people in Greenland are concerned about.
人们并没有惊慌失措地到处乱跑。
People are not running around looking scared.
他们没有。
They're not.
但确实存在担忧。
But there's concern.
主要是对更广泛的安全与和平的担忧
Mostly concern for the broader safety and peace
对整个世界。
for the whole world.
有些人认为，特朗普对格陵兰的企图如此可耻、冒犯或危险，以至于我们根本不该讨论它。
Some people have said that Trump's play for Greenland is so obscene or offensive or dangerous that we should not even be talking about it.
萨哈尔曾任职于议会，是北极研究专家，并担任非营利组织因纽特环北极理事会的主席，她说她希望讨论这个问题。
Sahar, who has been in parliament and is an expert in Arctic studies and chairs a nonprofit called the Inuit Circumpolar Council, she says she wants to talk about it.
正如你们可能听到的，我拒绝了所有询问我感受的人，因为那样会把我们置于被动旁观者的位置，只作为事件的接受者，而事实恰恰相反。
I, as you probably can hear, have rejected everybody who have asked me how does it feel because that also positions us as an as as sort of passive spectators to what's going on as just the receivers, where we are the contrary.
因此，我们并非像许多人所描绘的那样是被动的旁观者。
So we are not passive spectators as many have portrayed us to be.
我们是优秀的商人。
We are good tradespeople.
这对我们来说至关重要，使我们能够在北极地区生存并繁荣数千年。
That's been necessary for us to survive and thrive in the Arctic for time immemorial for thousands of years.
我们必须与来自世界各地的许多国家建立贸易关系，并为我们的资源开辟市场，才能构建我们的经济。
We've had to establish trade relations with so many states from all over the world and create markets for our resources in order for us to be able to to build an economy.
萨哈表示，格陵兰并不需要一个新的殖民者。
Saha says Greenland is not in the market for a new colonizer.
我们要不要告诉他们这个大消息？
Should we tell them our big news?
我们要不要告诉他们？
Should we tell them?
我觉得他们应该知道。
I feel like it's like they should know.
我们即将开始巡演。
We we are going on On tour.
巡演中。
On tour.
我之后才敲了鼓点。
I did the drum roll after.
应该在之前才对。
It should've been before.
随便吧。
Whatever.
你懂的。
You get it.
可以买票来看玛丽，来看我巡演。
Tickets are available to see Mary, to see me on tour.
你可以在planetmoneybook.com购买。
You can get them at planetmoneybook.com.
我们的首个活动将在四月举行。
Our first ever event is in April.
活动将于4月6日在纽约市的92街Y举行。
It's on April 6 in New York City at the 92nd Street Y.
欢迎来参加聚会。
Please come hang out.
我们将采访经济学家艾米莉·奥斯特，她因建议孕妇可以喝咖啡而广为人知。
We are gonna be interviewing Emily Oster, the economist most famous for telling pregnant women that they can have coffee.
我们的朋友阿曼达·阿隆齐克和达里安·伍兹也会到场，希望你也能来。
And our friends, Amanda Aronczyk and Darian Woods will be there, and hopefully so will you.
如果你购买书友活动的门票，将有机会获得限量版帆布包，数量有限，送完即止。
If you buy tickets to the book events, you will get a limited edition tote bag while supplies last.
我们会为你签书，还有其他各种活动，详情请访问moneybook.com。
We will sign your book, all that stuff, and at moneybook.com.
链接在节目笔记里。
There's a link in the show notes.
本集由唯一且出色的威拉·鲁宾制作，订票协助由萨姆·黄马·凯斯勒提供。
This episode was produced by the one and only amazing Willa Rubin with booking help from Sam Yellow Horse Kessler.
本集由玛丽·安妮·麦库恩剪辑，西耶拉·华雷斯提供事实核查支持。
It was edited by Mary Anne McCune with fact checking help from Sierra Juarez.
本集由Quasi Lee和罗伯特·罗德里格兹负责技术制作。
It was engineered by Quasi Lee and Robert Rodriguez.
亚历克斯·戈德马克是我们制片人。
Alex Goldmark is our producer.
我是西拉·冈萨雷斯。
I'm Ciara Gonzales.
我是玛丽·奇尔兹。
And I'm Mary Childs.
这是美国国家公共电台。
This is NPR.
感谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
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