激烈竞争的商业之道

这是来自NPR的Planet Money。

This is Planet Money from NPR.

前几天，我看到一件衣服，非常想买，可能是我这辈子为一件衣服花过的最多钱。

The other day, I saw an item of clothing I was very tempted to buy, possibly the most I would have ever paid for an item of clothing.

那是一件蒙特利尔地铁队的冰球球衣，售价150美元。

It was a Montreal Metros hockey jersey, a $150.

地铁队是电视剧《激烈对抗》中虚构的一支冰球队。

The Metros are a made up hockey team from the TV show Heated Rivalry.

官方复刻球衣原价150美元，但早已售罄。

Official replica jerseys were on sale for a $150, but totally sold out.

事实上，官方《激烈对抗》周边网站上的所有商品都已售罄，这让我怀疑该剧的创作者并未预料到会取得如此成功。

In fact, every single item on the official Heated Rivalry merch site is sold out, a sign I suspect that the TV show's creators were not expecting this level of success.

《激烈对抗》是一部基于加拿大爱情小说系列改编的加拿大电视剧。

Heated Rivalry is a Canadian television show based on a Canadian romance book series.

该剧在美国由HBO平台播出。

It's streamed in The US by HBO.

该剧讲述的是一对职业男子冰球运动员，他们是冉冉升起的超级巨星，也是命运弄人的恋人，剧情非常激情，被评为TV-MA级，取得了巨大成功。

It's about a pair of professional men's hockey players, rising superstars, star crossed lovers, very steamy, TV MA rated, and it has been a giant hit.

我和我妻子一起开始看这部剧。

I started watching it with my wife.

我想我们分了两段看完，而且我们非常喜欢。

I think we did it in two tranches, and, we loved it.

我很喜欢你们家把一口气看完剧称作‘分段’。

I love that in your house, you refer to binges as tranches.

我觉得

I feel

那就是‘分段’。

like that's Tranches.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yes.

我们是非常讲究的人。

We're very fancy people.

这正是完美的卡拉。

That's the perfect Kara

斯威舍。

Swisher.

是的。

Yes.

卡拉·斯威舍，记者、播客主持人、媒体界标志性人物，我敢这么说。

Kara Swisher, journalist, podcaster, media icon, I dare say.

在过去二十五年里，卡拉一直主导着科技与商业这一领域。

And Kara has sort of owned the subject area of technology and business for the last twenty five years.

但今天，她来这里是谈论激烈的竞争与商业。

But today, she is here to talk heated rivalry and business.

我觉得其中一件事让我印象深刻，那就是每集的制作成本大约在200万到360万美元之间，这其实很低。

I think one of the things that really struck me of a couple of things is it it costs somewhere between 2 and, 2 and $3,600,000 per episode to make, which is really low.

是的

Yeah.

平均来看，这部剧每集的制作成本略低于300万加元。

On average, the show was made for a little under $3,000,000 per episode Canadian.

也就是大约220万美元。

So, like, $2,200,000 US.

让卡拉感到惊讶的是，这个来自加拿大的小型制作团队如何在预算有限的情况下，让剧集看起来毫不廉价，获得了远超她所见过的美国制作的性价比。

And what struck Kara was the way that this scrappy little production in Canada was able to stretch that budget without the show looking cheap, getting way more bang for its buck than what she's seen on American productions.

如果你曾经去过好莱坞片场，我就去过几个。

If you've ever been on a Hollywood set, and I've done on a couple.

我参加过早间节目。

I was on the morning show.

我即将和一位名叫梅丽尔·斯特里普的人出演一部新电影。

I'm in an upcoming movie with someone named Meryl Streep coming up.

我是去过一些片场，但那里事情太多了。

Like, I've I've been in but there's a lot going on.

对吧？

Right?

他们拍摄的方式，在我看来似乎有点低效。

Like, they and they film in this way that, to me, seemed seemed somewhat inefficient.

所以，你知道，导演们可能希望对同一场景拍很多遍，从不同角度拍摄大量镜头，捕捉每个角色的反应。

So, you know, directors may want lots of takes of the same scene, lots of coverage from different angles, reactions from everybody in the scene.

但《激烈竞争》相反，通常会在一个角色的脸上停留整个场景，这意味着他们需要更少的拍摄次数和更少的群演。

Heated Rivalry, on the other hand, will often stay on one character's face as a scene plays out, meaning they need fewer takes, fewer extras in the background.

我们之所以谈论这些，是因为我最近听了卡拉的播客节目后，一直忍不住跟别人分享我学到的内容。

And the reason we're talking about all of this is because I have not been able to stop telling people what I've learned from a recent episode of Kara's podcast.

那个节目叫《Pivot》。

That show is called Pivot.

它由纽约大学商学院教授斯科特·加洛韦共同主持。

It's cohosted by NYU business professor Scott Galloway.

通常，这个节目讨论的是科技、商业和反垄断问题。

And, typically, the show is about technology and business and, antitrust.

最近反垄断话题真多。

Lots of antitrust lately.

但卡拉暂时放下了这个话题，采访了《Heated Rivalry》的制作人，聊聊他们如何打造这档节目。

But Kara took a break from that to talk to the creators of Heated Rivalry about the business of getting that show made.

因为我不只是了解到《Heated Rivalry》的制作非常巧妙。

Because it it's not just that I learned Heated Rivalry was made very cleverly.

我学到的是，加拿大制作电视和电影的经济体系与美国的做法完全不同，这一点我曾问过卡拉。

What I learned was that the Canadian economic system of making TV and movies is completely different from how we do it in The US, something I I asked Kara about.

我想我有点天真了。

I guess naively.

我从来没想过要区分美国和加拿大的商业模式。

It hadn't occurred to me to even think of an American business model versus a Canadian business model.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

你之前知道这一点吗？

Were you aware of this?

我的意思是，你一直

I mean, you've been

是的。

Yeah.

我 yeah。

I yeah.

不。

No.

我经常报道好莱坞，因为数字技术的影响。

I've covered Hollywood a lot because of the impact of digital.

所以我对他们的经济模式相当了解。

So I understand their their economics quite well.

其中一个一贯的主题是，这个国家的成本太高了，肯定存在不同的经济模式，他们完全可以做得很好。

And one of the things that had been a constant theme was the costs are so high in this country, and and there's gotta be different economic systems that they could do really well.

所以今天，我们将这一集交给卡拉和她对《Heated Rivalry》的创作者雅各布·蒂尔尼与布兰登·布雷迪的采访。

So today, we are giving the episode over to Kara and her interview with Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, creators of Heated Rivalry.

加拿大的娱乐产业与美国的娱乐产业形成鲜明对比，通过这次对话，我学到了很多关于这两个行业现状的知识。

The Canadian business of entertainment lives in contrast to The US business, and I learned so much about the current state of both industries from this conversation.

哦，还有我开头提到的周边商品，原来对加拿大创作者来说，这可是个大得多的生意。

Oh, and also that merch I mentioned at the beginning, turns out it is a way bigger deal for Canadian creators.

广告后，卡拉对《Heated Rivalry》创作者的采访。

Kara's interview with Heated Rivalry's creators after the break.

大家好。

So hi, everyone.

我是卡拉·斯威舍。

I'm Kara Swisher.

今天，我们带来一集特别的附加内容，主题既不恐怖也不令人沮丧。

Today, we've got a special bonus episode, and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing.

它讲述的是这十年来最令人上瘾、令人愉悦、出人意料的文化现象——《Heated Rivalry》。

It's about the most addictive, delightful, surprise cultural phenomenon of the decade, Heated Rivalry.

今天我邀请到了这档节目的创作者蒂尔尼和执行制片人布伦丹·布雷迪。

I'm joined today by the show's creator, Tierney, and executive producer, Brendan Brady.

欢迎你们两位。

Welcome you two.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢，卡拉。

Thanks, Kara.

我们遇到了一些技术问题，但无论如何，酷儿们终将胜利。

We've been beset by some tech issues, but nonetheless, the gays will prevail.

这档节目的成功涉及许多方面：酷儿的喜悦、性、包容。

The success of the show is about so many things, queer joy, sex, inclusion.

这还是一个了不起的商业故事，而这正是我想讨论的重点。

It's amazing business story, and that's really what I wanted to talk about.

有一件事，这档节目为你们整个国家带来了巨大的公关效应。

So one thing, this show has been a giant PR boost in your entire country.

这是加拿大总理马克·卡尼最近在一场媒体活动上的画面。

Here's prime minister Mark Carney at a recent media event.

全世界都知道

The world knows

沙恩和伊利亚是正在崛起的冰球新星，他们在一场堪称史上最具传奇性的对抗中彼此相爱。

that Shane and Ilya are rising hockey stars who fall for each other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known.

一个基本的加拿大价值观是，每个人都有权成为想成为的人，爱想爱的人。

A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.

因此，现在的说法是，这是一部来自加拿大的小众剧集，显然在加拿大制作，因为美国发行方对其中的性内容感到畏惧。

So the narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada, obviously, in Canada because American distributors are afraid of the sex content.

但他相当清晰地表达了一点：人们感到不安和分裂，而这部剧提供了一种慰藉。

But he he sort of articulates it rather well, is that people are are upset and divided, and this brings a respite.

但我认为这还不止如此。

But I think it's more than that.

那你们先说吧，雅各布？

But why don't you start, Jacob?

我的意思是，我认为这部剧以一种非说教、非刻意灌输道理的方式，只是呈现了酷儿的喜悦。

I mean, I think that there's I think that what the show did in a in a kind of an un preachy, un trying to teach you a lesson way is just present queer joy.

我认为这就是它的软实力。

And I think that that's its soft power.

你知道，这正是人们感到惊讶的地方。

You know, that's the thing that I think people are surprised by.

当然，我们的酷儿生活充满创伤，我理解这一点。

And and, you know, there are obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma, and and I get that.

而且我想我们都明白这一点。

And we I think we all know that.

但我觉得这部剧的意图是不去聚焦于这些，而是将酷儿体验的其他方面作为幻想来呈现。

But I think that this this show's desire to not focus on that, to focus on other parts of the queer experience as fantasy.

我完全承认这一点。

And I fully admit it.

对。

Right.

这是一部爱情片。

It's a romance.

它现在是一部爱情作品。

It's from a romance now.

爱情。

Romance.

我认为这部分是对

I think that that's partly the reaction to

它的反应。

it.

对。

Right.

布兰登？

Brendan?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，这部分的另一个方面，雅各布经常提到，也是我们当初向外界推广时的核心理念：这是一个由女性创作的故事，主要由女性消费。

So I I think like the other part of this, which Jacob has talked about a lot, and it was kinda how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which is this is a story written by women, and it's consumed primarily by women.

在媒体中，我们常常不认真对待女性的欲望和故事。

And we don't take female desire and stories seriously in media a lot of the times.

有无数读者阅读各种类型的浪漫小说。

There's so many readers of all types of romance novels.

她们就在那里，渴望这些故事被讲述出来。

They're there, and they are yearning for for these stories to be told.

当我们推广时，我们真的在默默祈祷，希望我们是对的。

When we were pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers hoping that we were right.

我们觉得，已经有一个现成的观众群体了。

We were like, there is a built in audience.

所以我认为，这另一个‘秘密武器’就是：这是一个庞大的粉丝群体，她们的故事从未被认真对待过，而这次她们终于看到自己的故事被认真对待了，而且非常喜欢。

So I think that was the other, like, secret sauce in this is just like, this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously, and they got to see it taken seriously, and they loved it.

谈谈这个，但关键是把它拍出来。

Talk about this, but getting it made.

我们谈到了这部作品的成功及其象征意义，以及加拿大和美国之间的差异，甚至包括这些制作项目的资金来源。

Like, we talked on this success on on what it symbolizes, the difference between Canada and The US, though, even how these productions are funded.

让我快速播放一段马克·卡尼关于此事及其资金来源的演讲。

And let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carney's speech about that and how it was funded.

看。

Look.

我是个政客。

I'm a politician.

我并不介意为加拿大提供的资金点赞，正是这些资金帮助你们将这个故事分享给全世界。

I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding that helped you share this story with the world.

我可能没有参与当初的决策，但我现在在这里。

I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now.

所以，是的，是我批准了这个项目。

So, yeah, I made I greenlit this thing.

我顶住了美国的压力。

I stood up to the Americans.

哦，这太棒了。

Oh, that's amazing.

所以我认为，我们的剧集是在加拿大体系下制作的，这和美国非常不同。

So I I think that, like, our show was made in the Canadian system, and it is very different from The US.

我们，嗯，

We Well,

给那些不了解的人解释一下。

explain it explain it for people who don't understand.

基本上，加拿大电影和电视体系有补贴、股权和资助系统，这些都由加拿大政府支持。

So, basically, the Canadian film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government.

所以，当你像我们一样去找像Crave这样的广播公司时，它是加拿大负责委托这部剧的流媒体平台，他们会说，好的。

So we you know, when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that commissioned the show, they go and say, okay.

太好了。

Great.

这是一笔授权费。

Here is a license fee.

通常，这部分占预算的20%到30%。

Typically, it'll run between 20 to 30% of the budget.

然后我们还有省一级和联邦一级的税收抵免，这又能带来预算的另外20%到30%。

Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30% of the budget.

然后总还差那么一小块，我们需要去填补。

And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for.

对吧？

Right?

所以对我们加拿大制作人来说，好处是虽然我们无法从广播公司那里拿到全部预算，但作为制作人，我们拥有所有底层知识产权。

So the benefit to us in Canada as producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our broadcasters, but we as the producers own all the underlying IP.

我明白了。

I see.

所以这是很大的不同。

So that is a big difference.

把它卖给出价最高的工作室。

Sell it to a studio.

没错。

Exactly.

我们就是这个体系中的工作室。

We are the studios in the system.

但这样做的限制是，你必须去筹钱。

But the the, you know, the limitations on that are you have to go then raise money.

所以我们做这个剧的时候，联系了几家工作室，有些是美国的，有些是加拿大的。

So how we did this with our show is we ended up talking to a couple of studios, some of them American, some of them Canadian.

但最终，从创意角度来看，并不合适。

And, ultimately, it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective.

而且，我们理解每个人的想法。

And, you know, we've we understand where everybody was coming from.

从纸面上看，这部剧一开始并不像是会大爆的热门作品。

It is a this was, you know, on paper, didn't seem like an amazing massive hit right out the gate.

幸运的是，在我们进行这个过程时，Crave的母公司——贝尔传媒——在我们国家就像康卡斯特和迪士尼合并成一家公司一样。

And so luckily, when we were going through this process, Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media Bell Media is like if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country.

他们拥有从电信到互联网再到体育的所有业务。

They own everything from telecommunications to Internet to sports.

他们还有像Crave这样的部门，这是

And they have divisions like Crave, which is

一个流媒体平台。

a streaming platform.

没错。

Exactly.

他们唯一的流媒体平台吗？

Their only streaming platform?

他们还有其他的。

They have others.

是的。

Yes.

不是。

No.

是的。

It's Yes.

这是他们唯一的流媒体平台。

It's their only streaming platform.

他们刚刚收购了一家名为Sphere Abacus的英国分销公司。

And they had just acquired a distribution company called Sphere Abacus out of The UK.

所以我们当时在寻找预算的最后30%，而他们以分销预付款的形式投入了额外的20%。

And so we were looking for that last 30% of the budget, and they came in for 20 more percent on a distribution advance.

因此，最后的10%由我和雅各布投入了我们的制片人费用，几乎把我们所有的制片人费用都投进去了。

So the last 10% was Jacob and I putting our producer fees, and we put in almost all of our producer fees.

所以你原本应该为这个项目获得的标准费用是多少？

So what you would have earned for this, the the fees that are standard.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

That's exactly right.

这里的总预算是多少？

What was the total budget here?

所以我们每集的预算刚刚低于300万加元。

So we were just under 3,000,000 Canadian an episode.

对于不了解的人来说，这在一部剧集里是非常低的。

For people who don't know, it's it's very low for a right.

我是说电视剧，薪水是

Television shows I mean, the salary It's

对情景喜剧来说很低。

low for a sitcom.

对一小时的剧集来说更是低得离谱。

It's deeply low for a one hour drama.

是的。

Yeah.

对大多数剧集来说都低得离谱，这取决于具体是哪些人的薪水。

Deeply low for most those are the salaries of certain people, depending.

所以，显然这些人并不出名，但这仍然是件昂贵的事。

So, obviously, these were not well known people, but still, it's still an expensive thing.

我觉得大多数美国剧集的最低预算都在1000万美元左右。

Think most US ones, I feel like 10,000,000 is the lowest they make.

这要看情况。

It depends.

在美国，每集400万到1000万美元之间是常态，具体取决于你的级别。

It's like between 4 to $10,000,000 an episode US is typical, depending on what your level is.

但确实，过去十年里成本已经急剧飙升。

But, yeah, I mean, costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.

从制作角度来看，在加拿大制作这部剧更便宜吗？

Is it less expensive to make this in Canada from a production perspective?

不。

No.

我们有一个高效的模式。

We have an efficient model.

而且，是的，确实如此，因为我们没有那么多资金在四处挥霍。

And, I mean, yes, it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around.

所以，我们不得不被迫减少开支。

So we, by necessity, have to spend less.

但我们也做了一件事，把全部六集都在三十六天内拍完了。

But we also, like, did something here where we shot all six episodes episodes in in thirty thirty six six days.

天。

Days.

雅各布执导了全部六集。

Jacob Jacob directed directed all all six of them.

我们像拍一部超级大片一样集中拍摄。

We block shot them like one giant movie.

当制片厂，尤其是美国制片厂来问我们是怎么做到的时，我们就会谈到这一点。

We talk about this when studios, especially US studios, come and say, how do you guys do this?

我们会说，这太疯狂了。

And we go, it's crazy.

你们在进入筹备阶段之前就把所有剧集的剧本写好了，而通常正是在这个时候，人们会感到困惑，无法理解。

You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep, and that's typically when we lose people, and they don't understand.

对。

Right.

因为他们是边拍边写。

Because they write it through.

他们是边拍边写。

They write through.

不过这种情况在美国正在发生变化。

Although that's changing in The US.

确实如此。

It is.

必须这样。

It has to.

这样做太疯狂了

It's crazy to do it

另一种方式。

the other way.

特别是当你不再制作22集的时候。

It's especially when you're not doing 22 episodes anymore.

比如在旧模式下，当你制作这么多集数时，不可能把所有剧集都提前准备好。

Like, back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all ready.

嗯，你有常驻编剧。

Well, you have writers on staff.

没错。

Well, exactly.

你必须不停地写作。

You have to just be writing all the time.

但如果采用新模式，只拍八到十集，那就几乎没有理由不能在开拍前完成所有剧本。

But if you're doing if the new model is eight to 10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.

所以你开始拍摄。

So you start shooting.

说吧。

Go ahead.

是的。

Yeah.

我们开始拍摄，主要每天拍十个小时。

We start shooting, and then we do ten hour shoot days primarily.

我不是说每天都这样，但我们尽量控制工作时间。

Like, I'm not gonna say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low.

这背后有几个原因。

And there's a couple of reasons for this.

第一，一旦你让克鲁斯工作到十二、十三个小时，就会因为加班而额外支付一天的费用。

A, as soon as you get into twelve, thirteen hours with Cruise, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime.

但我们也觉得，你知道，我妻子是助理服装设计师。

But we also just feel that, like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer.

她就是这部剧的助理服装设计师。

She was the assistant costume designer on this show.

她怀孕五个月了。

She's five months pregnant.

那些感谢你的部门。

The departments that thank you.

经常被折腾的部门是发型、化妆和服装，它们经常需要提前到场。

The departments that get hooped are hair, makeup, wardrobe with these pre calls a lot of the time.

这些部门由谁负责？

Who are those departments run by?

主要是女性。

Primarily women.

所以我们觉得，既然她们也参与我们的工作，我们就需要改变这种无休止地拍摄十五、十六小时的观念，正是这种做法导致成本飙升。

And so we also just feel that, like, they're in our business, we need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting fifteen, sixteen hour days, which is where the costs balloon.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

什么？

What?

你是女同性恋吗？

You a lesbian?

这里发生什么事了？

What's happening here?

总之，雅各布，谈谈你的制作风格吧。

Anyway, so, but but Jacob, talk about your production style.

你不仅追求简洁，让内容紧凑，还要保持紧凑。

You you besides being, you know, truncated, like making it tight, you keep it keep it tight kinda thing.

你称之为反法西斯。

You call it anti fascist.

你这么说是什么意思？

Explain what you mean by that.

我的意思是，通常人们渴望完美，但我觉得这种追求不仅无法实现，而且试图做到这一点本身就是疯狂且残忍的。

Well, I mean, in the I guess what what I what I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable, but also insane and cruel to be even attempting.

如果你因为不喜欢演员的表演而反复拍25条，这毫无意义，我是个演员。

There's no reason to do if you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor I'm an actor.

我从四岁就开始做这一行了。

I've been doing this since I was four years old.

问题出在场景本身。

The problem is the scene.

不是演员的问题。

It's not the actor.

是你没写好。

You haven't written it properly.

如果你没能达成目标，那就说明存在根本性问题。

If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue.

通过折磨人一遍又一遍地重复，我不知道你到底得到了什么。

And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining.

所以这基本上是

And so that's kind

我刚做完一个全天拍摄的产品。

I just did I just did a product that was all day.

我当时就想，为什么？

I was like, why?

这太疯狂了。

It's insane.

我一直问，为什么一整天都在拍？

I kept saying, Why is it all day?

在特写镜头里拍九种不同尺寸，太疯狂了。

To do nine different sizes on a close-up is insane.

所有这些做法都太离谱了。

All of this stuff is crazy.

我从根本上相信，电影和电视是一个团队协作的过程。

I I do believe fundamentally that film and TV is an ensemble process.

确实是。

It is.

否则，去写本书吧，或者去画幅画。

Otherwise, go write a book, you know, go paint a picture.

有很多方式可以完全掌控一切。

There's a lots of ways to be in total control.

所以，你知道，反法西斯可能是个很大的说法，但它确实是对‘一切必须’这种观念的拒绝。

So, you know, anti fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of it's a rejection of an idea that everything has to

都来自同一个人，对吧？没错。

come from one person and, like, what, you know Right.

那个天才的男人和想法。

The the brilliant man and idea.

这是非常自上而下的。

It's very top down.

所以当你谈到拥有这部知识产权时，这对你们所有人来说意味着什么？

So when you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all?

因为我自己拥有所有知识产权，只是让你知道，我觉得这很重要。

Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know, and I think it's important.

解释一下，为什么这对你们来说特别重要，尤其是在这个领域，因为这在行业内一直被视为禁忌。

Explain why it is for you, especially in this space because that's something that's been an anathema to the industry.

我来告诉你这意味着什么：我和雅各布曾经合作过一档叫《Letter Kenny》和《Shore Z》的节目，那个节目的制作人在加拿大也制作了它。

Well, I'll tell you what it means is, like, Jacob and I, you know, worked on a show called Letter Kenny and Shore Z, and the producers of that show made it in Canada as well.

而且他们有一个非常成熟的周边商品业务。

And they had a robust merchandise business.

当我们进入后期制作时，我们决定，因为我们保留了这部剧集的所有知识产权，所以想利用这一点推出一系列周边商品，我们现在就在做，这已经成为我们业务中令人惊叹的一部分，我们对此非常兴奋。

And when we were in postproduction, we decided because we have we, you know, retained all the intellectual property behind the series that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise, which we're doing, which is now incredibly like, it's it's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about.

但这也意味着，最终，当我们决定将片酬重新投入时，是因为我们知道，如果这部作品大获成功，未来二十五年我们都能从中受益。

But it also means that ultimately, like, when we we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're gonna benefit for the next twenty five years off of this.

而这正是关键的区别。

And that is the difference.

我觉得，人们经常问起，或者说你可能会对比加拿大体系和美国体系。

And I think, like, what you know, people always ask about or I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system.

在加拿大体系中，作为制作人，如果你想充分利用这部真正加拿大制作的节目，其中一个条件就是电视台不能拥有知识产权。

The Canadian system, you as the producers, if you wanna take advantage of being a really truly Canadian show, part of the, like, the offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP.

制片人可以拥有。

The producers get to.

有些人会看到这一点，但另一方面，在美国，你 upfront 能赚更多的钱。

And some people will look at that, you know, the but the flip side in The US is you're making way more money up front.

是的。

Mhmm.

我不认为哪一种是对的，哪一种是错的。

I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong.

我只是觉得我们的制度值得保护。

I just think that our system is something to protect.

一百年来，这个行业一直基于这样一个理念：创作者和制作人能够拥有并从他们的作品中终身受益。

For a hundred years, this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives.

我认为这是值得为之奋斗的。

And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

我完全同意。

I I think so completely.

有段时间，我不打算让别人来制作，我就说，你必须把知识产权给我。

At some point, I wasn't gonna make some or someone, and I said, you just have to give me IP.

他们问：你为什么非得要它？

And they said, why do you have to have it?

我说：这不关你的事。

I said, it's none of your business.

他们说：因为我想要它。

Said, because I want it.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

是我的。

Mine.

这不是你的。

It's not yours.

你没必要当音乐人。

You didn't have to musician.

对吧？

Right?

应该是自己拥有自己的版权。

Was like, own your own publishing.

对吧？

Right?

为什么你要让别人来管理你的作品，还把所有利润都拿走呢？

Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it?

没错。

That's correct.

而且，我们有各种机会，我们也可以在没有这种机制的系统中工作，那样也没问题。

And like, we're gonna we have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that and it'll be fine as well.

但我只是觉得，是的。

But I just think that like Yeah.

当我们谈论预算为何飙升时，你知道，有太多原因了。

When we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded.

你知道，电视行业的规模经济已经彻底崩溃了，因为我们制作的集数不够。

You know, the economy, like, the economy of scale on on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make episode enough episodes.

我们也没有把拍摄控制在特定地点。

We don't keep contain them into certain locations.

但无论你拍出的是大热剧还是中等热度的剧，结果似乎都一样有利。

But, also, it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or a kind of a middling hit.

在这个层面上，不管你怎样都赢了。

You seem to win no matter what at that level.

所以我认为，在我们未来推进这些系统时，有必要重新审视一下让创作者获得后期收益的做法。

So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of, like, giving people back end again.

这些老观念其实应该被重新启用。

Like, these these old ideas should be new.

广告插播后，继续聆听卡拉·斯威舍与《Heat Rivalry》主创的对话，探讨流媒体如何改变导演讲述故事的方式，以及派拉蒙收购华纳兄弟和HBO的举动对《Heat Rivalry》意味着什么。

After the break, more from Kara Swisher's conversation with the creators of Heated Rivalry, how streaming is changing the way directors are asked to tell their stories, and what Paramount's bid to buy Warner Brothers and HBO might mean for Heated Rivalry.

我们回来了，邀请到《热力对决》这部大热剧的执行制片人雅各布·蒂尔尼和布伦丹·布雷迪。

We're back with executive producers Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, who are the people behind this huge hit, Heated Rivalry.

我想播放一段马特·达蒙上个月在乔·罗根节目中的发言，他说流媒体如何影响了创作过程，因为其中一部分原因是人们正在摆脱束缚。

I wanna play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free.

对吧？

Right?

就像我很多年前一样，当时有很多人来找我。

Like myself many years ago, where I have a lot of people coming to me.

我当时觉得，这里真不错。

I'm like, it's great out here.

你看，你根本不需要那么多东西。

Like, you don't need all that stuff.

但让我们听听他是怎么说的。

But let's talk let's hear what he had to say.

这是一位非常成功的演员和制片人。

And this is a very successful actor and producer.

所以你说的是马特·达蒙？

So you said Matt Damon?

马特·达蒙。

Matt Damon.

哦，原来是这样。

Oh, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他在谈论这个行业。

He's talking about the the business.

我听说过

I've heard

他。

of him.

我想我听过他。

I think I've heard him.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，Netflix，我们通常学过的制作动作片的标准方式是，一般有三个高潮场景，第一幕一个，第二幕一个，第三幕一个。

Like, for instance, Netflix, you know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you you usually have, like, three set pieces, one in the first act, one in the second, one in the third.

而且，这些场景会逐渐升级，最后一个高潮场面全是爆炸，大部分预算都花在第三幕的这个场景上。

And, you know, you kind they kinda ramp up in the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act.

那就是你的最终高潮。

That's your kind of finale.

但现在他们想，我们能不能在开头五分钟就来个大场面，吸引观众，我们希望人们能留下来。

And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody you know, we want people to stay

对。

Yeah.

继续观看。

Tuned in.

而且，你知道，如果你在对话中把剧情重复三四遍，其实也没什么不好，因为人们在看的时候都在玩手机。

And and can and, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because people are on their phones while

他们一边看一边玩。

they're watching.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

那聊聊这个吧。

So talk about that.

顺便说一句，他会是个非常出色的同性恋冰球运动员。

He would, by the way, make an excellent gay hockey player.

但太老了。

But Too old.

太老了。

Too old.

一个年迈的同性恋冰球运动员。

An old gay hockey.

一个退休的。

A retired one.

当然。

Sure.

退休的。

Retired

的。

one.

我应该说清楚。

I should be clear.

我爱马特·达蒙。

I love Matt Damon.

我一直都爱马特·达蒙。

I've always loved Matt Damon.

我我

I'm I'm