本集简介
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莎拉。
Sarah.
莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
Sarah Gonzalez.
嗯。
Mhmm.
肯尼·马隆。
Kenny Malone.
最资深的同事。
Longest colleague.
你还记得很久以前，你和我一起做的那一期节目吗？那时我承认了嗯。
Do you remember a long time ago, an episode that you and I did together where I confessed Mhmm.
是的。
Yep.
对未成年人
To a minor
一项罪行。
A crime.
不。
No.
承认了一项罪行？
Confessed to a crime?
我觉得是滥用职权。
You I would say malf malfeasance.
我承认自己有过一些滥用职权的行为。
I I confessed of to some malfeasance.
随便吧。
Whatever.
哦，你违反了
It's oh, you broke a
规则。
rule.
我确实违反了一条规则。
I I definitely broke a rule.
还有违反法律。
And Slash law.
你知道的，反正都一样。
You know, potato potato.
我早就知道你要说什么了。
I knew exactly where you were going.
你还记得那一集吗？
Do you remember that episode?
当然记得。
Of course.
你当时根本就没扫描商品，对吧？
You were, like, not scanning groceries?
嗯，我们没必要细说，因为马上就要播放那一集了。
Well, we don't have to get into specifics because we're about to run the episode Okay.
好的。
Okay.
就这些了。
That that is about.
明白吗？
Okay?
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得。
I remember.
这就像肯尼唯一一次违反规则的时候，我想。
It's like the one and only time Kenny broke a rule, I think.
而且这是我唯一在录音中承认过的。
Certainly the only one I've confessed to on tape.
然后你还记得这一集整体讲的是什么吗？
And then do you remember what that episode was about overall?
不记得。
No.
那是什么？
What is it?
嗯，这一集讲的是我的罪行，我坚持认为，我们即将播出的这一集讲的是激励机制失控的问题。
Well, so the episode was about my crime, I I I contend and will contend in this episode we're about to run, was about incentives and incentives going rogue.
扭曲的激励。
Per perverse incentives.
扭曲的，是的。
Perverse Yeah.
所以这一集讲的是一堆这样的例子，而且是很久以前的事了。
So this episode was a a bunch of those, and it was from a long time ago.
但我可以分享一个非常令人兴奋的消息吗？
But may I share the very exciting news?
好的。
Alright.
准备好了吗？
Ready?
我要给你看一些东西，是的。
I'm gonna show you Yeah.
我要给你看一些东西，因为这和《新星球金钱》这本书有关。
I'm gonna show you something because this relates to the new Planet Money book.
你准备好了吗？
Are you ready?
看看这个。
Look at this.
哦，是关于办公室法规的那一集。
Oh, the laws of the office episode.
这是一张海报。
This is a poster.
就像那种你可能会在饮水机旁看到的工业安全海报一样。
Like a like like an industrial safety poster that you would It
看起来像。
looks like
见过的饮水机。
seen into a water cooler.
就像联邦机构会有的那种。
Like a federal agency would have.
百分比。
Percent.
但这是专门为特别的《Planet Money》书籍购买者定制的，就是《办公室法则》。
But this is custom made for only very special Planet Money book buyers, and it is the laws of the office.
这就是你将在本集中听到的法则，但被制作成了一张实用的、像水冷机旁的安全告示海报。
It's the laws that you're about to hear in this episode, but put into a useful water coolers like safety poster.
当你发现同事正在真正地践行帕金森定律，或者那边正上演着出色的艺术法则时，你可以指着他们烦人地提醒。
And you can point to your colleagues obnoxiously when you're like, you know, you're really really doing Parkinson's Law right now or really good arts law going on over there.
你觉得怎么样？
What do you think?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这就像公共水槽边贴便签提醒洗碗的版本。
So this is like wash the dishes in the communal sink post sticky note version.
是的。
Yes.
就像是那个的版本。
It's like a version of that.
所以。
So
别做那种员工。
Like, don't don't be that employee.
别做那种同事。
Don't be that coworker.
是的。
Yes.
正如你将听到的，所有这些特定的法律都有某种经济背景。
And all of these particular laws, as you will hear, have some kind of economic backing to them.
这就是今天这一集要讲的内容。
That's what today's episode is about.
但这里的重要信息是，这是一张特别版海报，仅限预购《Planet Money》一书的人获取，数量有限。
But the important information here is this is a special edition poster, only available, limited edition, only for people who preorder the Planet Money book.
你预购的方式是访问 planetmoneybook.com。
And the way that you do that is you go to planetmoneybook.com.
如果你错过了链接，别担心。
And if you miss the link, don't worry.
我们会多次提到这个链接。
We will say it plenty more times.
好的。
Okay.
下面是这集节目，它启发了你在预购《Planet Money》一书时可以获得的这张海报。
So here's the episode that inspired the poster that you can get when you preorder the Planet Money book.
我非常期待听到它。
I'm excited to hear it.
很不错。
It's good.
之前很不错。
It was good.
非常有趣。
It was very fun.
给你。
Here you go.
这是这一集。
Here's the episode.
这是来自NPR的Planet Money。
This is Planet Money from NPR.
萨拉，你查过那件事了吗？
Sarah, did you look up the the thing?
我查了那件事。
I looked up the thing.
宾夕法尼亚州对轻罪的追诉时效是两年。
The statute of limitations in Pennsylvania for misdemeanors is two years.
两年。
Two
年。
years.
就这样？
That's it?
是的。
Yeah.
所以你能给我们讲讲这个故事吗？
So can you tell us the story?
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
但我们别在这儿做。
But let us not do it here.
我们在这儿做吧。
Let us do it here.
肯尼·马隆带我们来到一家设有自助结账的药店。
Kenny Malone has brought us to a drugstore that has a self checkout.
我大约16岁时曾在一家杂货店当收银员。
I used to be a cashier at a grocery store when I was about 16 years old.
你呢？
You?
你根本不知道，老兄。
You have no idea, dude.
我那时候看起来就像个11岁的孩子。
I looked like I was 11 years old at that age.
哦，我能看出来。
Oh, I can see that.
我能想象出来。
I can picture it.
那很糟糕。
It was bad.
所以有一天，我得知我的经理们开始记录所有收银员的表现。
So one day, I learned that my managers have started to to keep track of the performance of all of the cashiers.
比如，你对顾客有多友好？
Like, how friendly you are to the customers?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
他们在测量我们每分钟扫描的商品数量，然后我认为他们把这些数据公布出来，让其他收银员看到
They were measuring our like items scanned per minute, and then I believe they were posting those for the other cashiers to
看。
see.
好的。
Okay.
所以我有点好胜心。
So I'm a little competitive.
我也很乖，总觉得得更快才行。
I'm also a goody two shoes, I'm like, I gotta be faster.
我得更快。
I gotta be faster.
我得给老板们交出漂亮的数字。
I gotta get my bosses these numbers.
然后我遇到一个扫不了的商品。
And then I get this item that won't scan.
哦，比如香菜。
Oh, like cilantro.
香菜在超市永远扫不进去。
Cilantro never scans at the grocery store.
在宾夕法尼亚州的乡村，香菜没那么多。
It wasn't a ton of cilantro in rural Pennsylvania.
我想那 probably 是猫粮。
I think it probably was like cat food.
猫粮特别难扫描。
Cat food was weirdly hard to scan.
标签都撕烂了，乱七八糟的。
The label got all torn up and crap.
总之，我正试着扫描这个东西，脑子里只想着：天啊。
Anyway, I'm trying to scan this thing, and all I can think is like, oh my god.
我的每分钟扫描数量在暴跌，暴跌。
My items per minute is plummeting, plummeting.
最后，我干脆让它直接过收银台没扫描，然后拿起下一件商品，就这样继续
And then finally, I just let it go down the register, unscanned, and I grab the next item, and I So move
你把猫粮白送了？
you gave the cat food away for free?
是的。
Yes.
严格来说，我们或许得说我是偷了猫粮，但为了做个好员工
Technically, I suppose we would have to say I stole the cat food, but to be a good employee
所以你才让我去查一下小额盗窃的法律吧
That's why you asked me to check the petty theft laws in
我只是想做个好员工。
I was just trying to be a good employee.
我想提高业绩，结果确实达到了好成绩。
I was trying to get good numbers, and I got good numbers.
我的每分钟扫描件数，我相信是整个超市里最高的。
My items per minute were, I believe, the best in the entire grocery store.
所以
So
好的。
Okay.
但当你的老板们说要加快速度时，我敢肯定他们并不是让你在过程中违法。
But when your bosses said speed things up, I'm sure that they didn't mean break the law in the process.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
这正是这个故事的重点。
And that is the point of this story.
我可能违反了普通的法律，但我后来明白，我只是在遵循另一条法律，即古德哈特定律。
I may have been breaking the normal law, but I have since learned that I was simply following a different law known as Goodhart's Law.
古德哈特定律。
Goodhart's Law.
古德哈特定律。
Goodhart's Law.
它基本上指出，如果一家公司决定衡量某件事，员工就会找到办法给你好看的数据，只是你可能不喜欢他们实现的方式。
It essentially states that if a company decides to measure something, the employees are gonna find a way to give you good numbers, you just may not like how they do it.
你好，
Hello,
欢迎来到《金钱星球》。
and welcome to Planet Money.
我是莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
I'm Sarah Gonzalez.
我是肯尼·马隆，这类定律、规则、原则，或者你愿意怎么称呼它们，有几十种之多。
And I'm Kenny Malone, and there are dozens of these laws or rules or principles or whatever you wanna call them.
比如古德哈特定律，还有彼得原理、帕金森定律。
Like Goodheart's Law, also the Peter Principle Parkinson's Law.
今天在节目中，我们来看看这些声称能解释办公室中几乎所有问题的定律——从糟糕的管理者到可怕的拖延症。
Today on the show, we take a look at these laws that claim to explain just about everything that can go wrong in an office from bad managers to terrible procrastination.
所以，是的，这一集最初发布于2018年，我们真的非常喜爱这一集。
So, yeah, this episode originally ran in 2018, and we do we just love this episode.
它就是这样一种节目，一旦你听到了这些规律，就会发现它们无处不在。
It is one of those where once you hear these laws, you are gonna you're gonna see them everywhere.
你根本躲不开。
You cannot help it.
所以我们想，不如把这些职场规律做成一张真正的海报，挂在你的办公室里，让你的老板看看。
So that's how we thought we'd turn these laws of the office into, like, a real poster that you can hang in your office for your manager to see.
而且，再次提醒，想要获得这张海报，就去 planetmoneybook.com 预购《Planet Money》这本书。
And, again, the way to get that is to preorder the Planet Money book at planetmoneybook.com.
今天在节目中，我们会听到这些职场规律，还会介绍一个我们新发现的规律，同时也会听到2018年的肯尼和2018年的莎拉，以及当时还在Planet Money担任初级制作人的亚历克西·霍罗维茨-加齐。
So today on the show, we'll hear the laws of the office along with a new one we found, and we hear from twenty eighteen Kenny and twenty eighteen Sarah along with Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi back when he was just a baby producer at Planet Money.
我们那时候都是新手啊，莎拉。
Oh, we were all babies, Sarah.
我们精力充沛得很。
We had so much energy.
精力真充沛。
So much energy.
喂？
Hello?
嗨。
Hi.
您是古德哈特教授吗？
Is this professor Goodhart?
是的。
Yep.
我就是。
Speaking.
您就是提出古德哈特定律的那位教授吗？
And you are professor Goodhart of Goodhart's Law?
没错。
I am indeed.
你是否自豪地戴着这个称号？
Do you proudly wear that moniker?
感觉有点复杂。
Slightly mixed feelings.
这是查尔斯·古德哈特，经济学家，前英格兰央行顾问，伦敦政治经济学院荣休教授。
This is Charles Goodhart, economist, former adviser to England Central Bank, professor emeritus at London School Of Economics.
大约五十年前，查尔斯·古德哈特发表了一篇关于货币政策的论文，其中在引言里写了一句影响深远的简短陈述。
And about fifty years ago, Charles Goodhart wrote a paper about monetary policy that included in the introduction a fateful little line.
它说：忽略古德哈特定律，任何被观察到的统计规律，一旦被用于控制目的而施加压力，就会趋于崩溃。
It says, ignoring in Goodhart's Law that any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes.
明白了。
Okay.
很难理解，但他其实是在非常具体地指出，测量经济中某个微小部分，似乎会破坏这个部分本身。
Hard to understand, but he was making a very narrow point about how measuring one tiny slice of the economy seems to mess up that slice of the economy.
古德哈特定律实际上只是一个带有玩笑性质的附带评论。
Goodhart's Law was actually a rather joking side comment.
当时并没有打算让这个说法被如此认真地对待。
It was not intended at that time to be taken all that seriously.
但随着时间的推移，人们开始认真对待了。
But over time it was.
人们把古德哈特定律从货币政策的范畴中剥离出来，提出了该定律的新表述。
People took Goodhart's Law out of the world of monetary policy and came up with new formulations of the law.
例如，一旦你将某个指标作为目标，它就不再是一个有效的衡量标准，我想这是其中一种说法。
For example, once you target a measure, it ceases to be a good measure, I think is one of them.
没错。
That's correct.
这个观点其实相当简单。
The point is really fairly simple.
是的。
Yeah.
比如说，医院的一个衡量指标是保持等待时间短暂。
Let's say that one of the measures of a hospital is that the waiting time is kept short.
这是一个真实的例子。
This is a real example.
英国政府开始施压其医院，要求在四小时内更快地接诊急诊病人。
The British government started pressuring its hospitals to see emergency patients faster within four hours.
果然，等待时间下降了，但并不总是出于正确的原因。
And sure enough, wait times dropped, just not always for the right reasons.
医院开始想办法操纵统计数据。
Hospitals started kind of gaming the statistics.
其中最令人震惊的一个例子是，患者会被要求待在救护车里，直到医院确定该患者能在四小时时限内被接诊。
And one of the most outrageous examples was this practice where patients would be asked to wait inside an ambulance until the hospital was absolutely sure that patient could be seen within the four hour time limit.
然后患者才被送进医院。
Then the patient came in.
对古德哈特定律的另一种表述是：小心你衡量的东西，因为你的员工会让它实现。
Another way of stating Goodhart's Law, Be careful what you measure because your employees are going to make it happen.
确实如此。
Indeed.
他们会通过重新分配资源来实现这一项指标，却忽视了其他未被瞄准的指标，因为资源已经被从这些地方抽走了。
And they will do it by reallocating resources to achieve that one measure and fail to meet non targeted measures because the resources will have been allocated away from them.
当你首次提出古德哈特定律时，你有一个非常具体的应用场景。
When you first introduced Goodhart's Law, you had a very specific application.
没错。
That's correct.
这并不完全相同。
This is not exactly the same.
你对这些更广泛的表述有什么看法？
How do you how do you feel about these broader formulations?
嗯，我对这些表述完全持欢迎态度。
Well, I'm I'm perfectly happy with them.
你知道的，任何宣传都是好事。
I'm, you know, all publicity is good.
没错。
That's right.
但某种程度上，这让我感到失望，因为我可能最出名的是一个玩笑式的评论，而我过去六十年里做的更多是经过深思熟虑的学术性细致工作，却鲜为人知。
But I in some ways, it's disappointing that I am probably best known for what is a jocular comment after some sixty years of doing more considered academic detailed work for which I am less known.
所以，莎拉，我觉得我们在这里应该为古德哈特定律补充一个推论。
And so, Sarah, I feel like we should introduce a corollary to Goodhart's Law here.
如果你决定给某个定律命名，它就会成为一条定律，而你可能并不喜欢它对你声誉造成的影响。
If you decide to name a law, it will become a law, and you may not like what it does to your legacy.
你好。
Hello.
你好。
Hello.
检查一下，一、二。
Check one two.
这里是肯尼·马隆，正走向莎拉·冈萨雷斯的办公桌。
Kenny Malone here walking up to the desk of Sarah Gonzalez.
嘿。
Hey.
好的。
Okay.
所以这是什么意思？
So it's like what?
早上9点30分，星期四，11月8日，我们本该在制作本期节目的下一个部分。
09:30 in the morning, Thursday, November 8, and we are supposed to be working on the next segment of this episode.
而且我们连一半都没完成。
And we're not even close to finished.
是的。
No.
我们本该向你们介绍所谓的帕金森定律，它本质上指出：工作会膨胀以填满所分配的时间。
We're supposed to tell you about the so called Parkinson's law, which states essentially that work expands to the time allotted.
比如，肯尼和我有一整周的时间来完成这个帕金森定律的片段。
So for example, Kenny and I have an entire week to finish this Parkinson's Law segment.
但说实话，这其实只需要一天左右的工作量。
And if we're being honest, that should really only take like one day's worth of work.
大概吧。
Probably.
对。
Yeah.
但我们有一整周的时间。
But we have a whole week.
所以这意味着我们可能会花时间去找那些可能根本用不上的档案素材。
So that means we're probably gonna spend time, like, looking for archival tape that we're probably not gonna use.
我们会做额外的采访，但说实话，这段内容里根本没有空间放这些采访。
We are gonna do extra interviews that if we're being honest, there's not room for in this piece.
我总是这样。
I always do that.
我们有一周时间，所以工作就会膨胀到填满这一周。
We have a week, and so the work will expand to fill the week.
但今天，我们要试着用帕金森定律来帮我们完成这项工作。
But today, we're gonna try to use Parkinson's Law to help get this done.
不过，这个节目的记者本人还不知道，他就是《星球金钱》最新加入的制片人亚历克西·霍罗维茨-加齐，我们正等着他到办公室。
And the reporter for this segment, though he does not know it yet, is Planet Money's newest producer, Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi, and we are waiting for him to get into the office right now.
亚历克西。
Alexi.
在。
Yes.
嘿，伙计。
Hey, man.
嘿。
Hey.
所以，亚历克西，你刚到公司吗？
So Alexi, you just got into work?
是的。
Yes.
所以你要和我一起进演播室。
So you're coming in studio with me.
来了。
Coming.
来了。
Coming.
快点。
Come on.
快点。
Come on.
好的。
Okay.
好吧。
Alright.
我们现在连线了一位精通帕金森定律的教授。
So we have a professor on the line right now who's an expert in Parkinson's Law.
您好，教授。
Hello, professor.
嗨。
Hi.
我跟你说过我要做这个采访。
And I told you that I was gonna do the interview.
我们希望你来做这个采访。
We want you to do the interview.
什么？
What?
而且，我们希望你负责整个环节。
And furthermore, we want you to do the whole segment.
不过有个条件。
There's one catch.
你完成这项工作的时限是一天。
The time allotted for you to finish this work is one day.
你必须在今天结束前完成。
You have to finish this by the end of the day.
好的。
Alright.
咱们干吧。
Let's let's do it.
他真的卷起袖子来了。
He's literally rolling up his sleeves.
没错。
That's right.
这很好。
That's good.
这是把事情办成的唯一办法。
It's the only way to get anything done.
好的。
Alright.
你可以戴上耳机。
You can throw you can throw the headphones on.
教授，您能听到我吗？
Professor, can you hear me?
能。
Yes.
太好了。
Great.
好的。
Okay.
那么，也许我们先开始，您能做个自我介绍吗？
So maybe just to start out with, if you could introduce.
我们又回到演播室了。
Well, we are back in the studio.
您今天忙了一天。
You've had a day.
您的袖子实际上还卷着呢。
Your sleeves are still rolled up, actually.
你采访了那位教授。
You interviewed the professor.
你有故事要分享吗？
Do you have a story for us?
这就是我成功的秘诀，是的，我有。
That's the key to my success, and, yes, I do.
好的。
Alright.
我们开始吧。
Let's do it.
所以她告诉我的第一件事是，帕金森定律最初是个笑话。
So the first thing she told me was that Parkinson's law started out as a joke.
是的。
Yes.
这一切始于1955年《经济学人》上发表的一篇幽默文章。
So it all started with humorous essay published in The Economist in 1955.
作者是英国海军历史学家、北欧姓氏帕金森。
The author was c Norse code Parkinson, who was a British naval historian.
那是约翰斯·霍普金斯商学院的孟竹。
That's Meng Zhu of the Johns Hopkins Business School.
1955年，《经济学人》将帕金森的这篇论文作为一篇戏谑性的观点发表。
In 1955, The Economist published Parkinson's essay as a kind of facetious argument.
在文中，他探讨了为什么官僚机构无论实际工作量多少，几乎总是不断扩张。
In it, he talked about why bureaucracies almost always grow no matter how much work they're really doing.
我实际上找到了一段已故的帕金森教授谈论这篇论文的档案录音。
I actually found some archival tape of the now deceased professor Parkinson talking about the essay.
档案录音。
Archival tape.
你真的给我们放档案录音了吗？
You actually read us archival tape?
太棒了，老兄。
Nice, man.
它的形式并不严肃，可能原本是打算寄给一本幽默杂志的。
It was unserious in form, and it might have been sent to a humorous magazine.
但我更明智地选择了把它寄给《伦敦经济学人》。
Instead, and I think more wisely, I sent it to the London Economist.
你居然找到了一位比查尔斯·古德哈特教授还要英国范儿的人。
Somehow, you found someone that is more British than professor Charles Goodhart.
这真是太了不起了。
This is very impressive.
那段录音其实来自一张1960年的黑胶唱片，名为《C·诺斯科特·帕金森教授讲解帕金森定律》。
That actually came off a 1960 vinyl album called professor c Northcote Parkinson explains Parkinson's Law.
封面上的简介称其为‘令人愉悦的非教授风格’。
The blurb on the cover calls it, quote, delightfully unprofessorial.
这应该是《Planet Money》的口号。
That should be Planet Money's slogan.
我觉得这正是我们想要的效果。
I feel like that's what we're going for.
孟说，帕金森的文章主要讲的是官僚机构为何扩张，但真正让人们对它印象深刻、并使其广为人知的，是开篇的第一句话。
Meng says that Parkinson's article was mostly about why bureaucracies grow, but the thing that really stuck with people that really made it a big deal was the opening line.
因此，他在文章的第一句话中总结了这条定律，大意是：工作会膨胀以填满其完成所分配的所有时间。
So he summarized the law in the first sentence of his essay that basically says, work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.
孟说，尽管这最初是个笑话，但到了20世纪60年代，人们已经开始把它当作一条真正的定律来对待。
Meng says that even though it started as a joke, by the nineteen sixties, people were actually treating this like a real law.
于是，心理学家和经济学家们在实验室中设计实验，试图弄清楚人们是否会根据截止日期的变化而延长工作时间。
So you had psychologists and economists coming up with experiments in the laboratory to try and figure out if people would expand their work to fit changing deadlines.
看起来他们确实会这样。
It seemed like they actually did.
接着，其他人开始走出实验室，试图在现实世界中寻找帕金森定律的踪迹。
And then you had other people going out and trying to find Parkinson's Law in the wild.
在各种不同情境下进行实地检验，比如木材采伐、钢铁行业、学校系统等。
Field tests across a variety of contexts, such as wood harvesters, steel industry, school system.
孟和她的同事实际上已经对此进行了研究。
Meng and her colleagues have actually studied this.
果然，他们发现当给受试者更长的截止日期时，他们会把工作扩展到填满整个期限。
And sure enough, they found that when they gave their subjects longer deadlines, they expanded the work to fit those deadlines.
她说，如今，帕金森定律已经成为办公室文化中广为流传的典故。
And she says that by now, Parkinson's Law has become a storied part of cubical lore.
它一直是管理培训的主要话题。
It has been a main topic for management training.
你该如何对抗帕金森定律？
How how do you fight Parkinson's Law?
你该如何对抗帕金森定律？
How do you fight Parkinson's Law?
她说，有几种方法。
Well, she says there are a few ways.
首先，你可以缩短截止日期。
First, you could shorten your deadlines.
对此我深有体会。
Know something about that.
第二，你可以为快速完成任务提供奖励。
Second, you could offer a reward for fast task completion.
你是在
Are
你现在是在向我们要奖励吗？
you asking us for a reward right now?
这有点拖延。
This is a holdup.
像抢劫吗？
Like a stickup?
像抢劫一样。
Like a stickup.
我们口袋里有多少钱？
Like how much money do we have in our pockets?
把口袋清空。
Empty your pockets.
把口袋翻出来。
Turn them out.
我没有
I don't
一分钱都没有。
have any money.
哦，我有。
Oh, I do.
我连钱包都带着
I even have my wallet
在身上。
with me.
我把钱包里的钱全给你。
I'll give you all the money in my wallet.
天哪。
Oh my god.
展开剩余字幕（还有 305 条）
整整一美元。
A whole dollar.
一美元。
Dollar.
谢谢。
Thanks.
干得漂亮，兄弟。
Good work, man.
撒钱了。
Made it rain.
这有科学依据。
This is backed up by science.
孟说，你知道，尽管帕金森定律最初是个玩笑，但已经被许多不同研究证实了。
Meng says that, you know, even though Parkinson's Law started as a joke, it's been documented through a lot of different studies.
但更重要的是，她说这本身就合乎直觉。
But more importantly, she says it just makes intuitive sense.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这个道理。
That's the thing.
我认为人们本能地认同他的逻辑论证。
I think people intuitively agree with his logic arguments.
哦，孟？
Oh, Meng?
孟？
Meng?
我想我们刚才断线了。
I think I think we just got cut off.
我想这意味着我们的访谈超出了原本安排的时间。
I think that means that our interview expanded to the time we had allotted for it.
你们的录音时间真的中断了吗？
Did your studio time actually cut out?
是的。
It did.
亚历克西，你做到了。
Alexi, you did it.
你一天内完成了这项任务，而不是花上一周。
You finished the task at hand in one day instead of a week.
它的效果和我们花一周做出来的一样好。
It was exactly as good as if we had done it in a week too.
更好。
Better.
太棒了。
Hooray.
谢谢你，亚历克西。
Thank you, Alexi.
谢谢，肯尼。
Thanks, Kenny.
谢谢，莎拉。
Thanks, Sarah.
好的。
Okay.
现在是2026年，肯尼，我现在插播一下，因为我们刚刚听到了这个片段。
This is 2026, Kenny, popping in now because, obviously, we heard this segment.
而亚历克西·霍罗维茨-加齐现在是《星球金钱》的联合主持人之一，已经从制作人晋升为主持人。
And Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi is now one of the cohosts of Planet Money, so graduated from producer to to coast.
亚历克西，显然我们需要把你请回演播室，聊聊这件事。
And, Alexi, obviously, we needed to bring you back into the studio to debrief on this.
八年过去了，但还是要复盘一下。
Eight years later, but debrief.
是的。
Yes.
很高兴能来这里，肯尼。
Very happy to be here, Kenny.
这就像一场治疗对话。
It's like a it's like a therapy session.
好的。
Alright.
所以八年过去了，你觉得被拉回来证明帕金森定律的观点怎么样？
So eight years on, what do you think about being pulled in to prove Parkinson's Law point?
感觉如何？
How was that?
一方面，我到现在还是会因为那种即时的压力而半夜出汗。
On the one hand, I still get, like, night sweats about that level of in the moment stress.
是的。
Yeah.
但另一方面，我觉得这真的让我明白，你必须走出去，和人们交流，把事情讲清楚。
But, you know, on the other hand, I think it really it really taught me you just gotta get out there and talk to people and make it make sense.
总的来说，我对这段经历感觉很好。
So on the whole, feel pretty good about it.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
这是一份非常积极的评价。
That's a very positive review.
我们如今在节目中给你的时长确实多了些。
We obviously we give you a little bit more time on episodes these days.
而且我觉得确实好几个月没见你了，因为我们给了你大量时间专注于一个特定项目。
And I do feel like I haven't seen you in months because we've given you a lot of time on a very specific project.
亚历克西正在基于一个项目制作一系列内容，等等，听众们，就是《Planet Money》这本书。
Alexi is working on a series based on, wait for it listeners, the Planet Money book.
是的。
Yes.
亚历克西恰好在这里确实有点巧合，但结果非常好。
It is it is a little bit coincidence that Alexi is here, but it does work out great.
不是spawn con。
Not spawn con.
你能给我们简单介绍一下这本书吗？
Can you tell us a little bit about the book?
是的。
Yeah.
这本书基本上做了我们在这个节目里做的事情。
So the book basically does a version of what we do here on the show.
它用经济学的视角，加上一种轻松幽默的态度，来审视经济世界中的各种事物。
It applies an economics lens and a playful, whimsical sensibility to looking at everything in the economic world.
从你每天做的微小选择，比如早餐吃什么，到你选择谁作为人生伴侣，再到你如何利用空闲时间，无所不包。
Everything from tiny choices you make every day, like what to eat for breakfast to who you pick for your life partner to what do you do with your free time?
书中有很多Planet Money听众熟悉的精彩故事，还有很多全新的报道和故事，他们一定会喜欢。
So there's a lot of great stories Planet Money listeners will recognize and a ton of new reporting and new stories they're gonna love.
好的。
Okay.
所以4月7日是这本书的截止日期。
So April 7 book it is a deadline also.
如果你想获得由本集启发的海报，就必须在4月7日前预购这本书。
If you wanna get the poster inspired by this episode that you're listening to right now, you do need to preorder the book by April 7.
好的。
Alright.
亚历西，欢迎再次做客，这应该是你第二或第三次来了。
Alexi, thank you for joining us again for, like, the second or third time.
我已经记不清了。
I've lost track.
谢谢你，肯尼。
Thank you, Kenny.
只要你们邀请，我一定会再来。
I'll come back every time.
好的。
Okay.
那么，让我们回到八年前的下一条法则。
So back eight years to our next law.
好的。
Okay.
下一条法则叫做彼得原理。
The next law is called the Peter Principle.
这条法则指出，在层级结构中，每个员工都倾向于晋升到他们无法胜任的级别。
This one says that in a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to their level of incompetence.
如果你在当前岗位表现优秀，你的上司就会注意到，提拔你；如果你在新岗位上依然表现优秀，这种情况就会再次发生，你不断被提拔，直到被提拔到一个你无法胜任的职位。
If you're good at your job, your boss notices, promotes you, and then if you're good at that job, it happens again and you keep getting promoted until you get promoted to a job that you are not good at.
为了了解这种感觉是什么样的，我们问了我们的上司。
To find out what that feels like, we asked our boss.
亚历克斯·戈德马克。
Alex Goldmark.
我会记住这一点的。
I'm gonna remember this.
年度评估还有几周就要到了。
Annual review is just a few weeks.
开玩笑的。
Just kidding.
我们都觉得亚历克斯工作能力非常强。
We all think Alex is really good at his job.
但亚历克斯，我们让你找一个有自知之明、意识到自己正陷入彼得原理陷阱的人。
But Alex, we asked you to find someone who had the self awareness to realize that they were falling victim to the Peter Principle.
是的。
Yes.
我找到了斯蒂芬妮·伯恩。
And I found Stephanie Byrne.
这个故事要从差不多两年前说起。
This story starts almost two years ago.
我当时做着一份我非常热爱的工作，根本感觉不到自己在上班。
I was doing a job that I loved and never felt like I was even working.
我非常喜欢它。
I loved it so much.
Stephanie 是一所大型大学的社交媒体专员，这是一份幕后工作，她很喜欢。
Stephanie was a social media specialist for a large university, and this is a kind of behind the scenes job, which she liked.
她能发现校园里关于人们的精彩故事，然后思考如何在社交媒体上分享它们。
She got to find good stories about people around campus and then figure out how to share them on social media.
需要创意。
Took creativity.
她有很多自由。
She had a lot of freedom.
她可以独立工作。
She got to work independently.
这些正是她在工作中所寻找的东西。
And these were the things she was looking for in a job.
我只是觉得那里让我感到非常自在。
I just felt it was somewhere where I was really comfortable.
我确实觉得这让我展现出了很多自己的优势。
I really felt that that brought out a lot of strengths that I have.
这正是彼得原理的第一阶段。
Phase one of the Peter Principle right here.
她做得非常好。
She is doing great.
她知道自己擅长什么，不擅长什么。
She knows that she's good at some things and not others.
然后有人问我是否对这个更大的职位感兴趣。
And then I was asked if I would be interested in this bigger role.
对。
Right.
晋升。
Promotion.
完全正常。
Totally normal.
这就是工作的方式。
This is how jobs work.
现在她负责大学的网页内容。
Now she's in charge of web content for the university.
她花很多时间参加会议，她的工作的一部分就是告诉别人该如何做他们的工作。
Spends a lot of time in meetings, and part of her job is to tell other people how to do their jobs.
所以这不再是幕后工作了。
So this is not behind the scenes anymore.
我是个内向的人，所以一开始就必须在一群人面前发言，这让我非常不自在。
I'm an introvert, so having to, like, stand up in a group of people was super uncomfortable for me, like, from the start.
我得每月做培训，每次之前都感到恶心。
I had to do monthly trainings, and I just felt sick before that every time.
她成了大家遇到问题时都来找她寻求解决方案的人。
And she becomes the person who everyone brings their problems to asking her to find a solution.
我记得有一次，有人在食堂当面找我理论，说我做的某件事让他们不满意，我被推到风口浪尖上，手里还拿着午餐，站在那儿不知所措，不知道该怎么应对。
I remember one time having someone confront me in the cafeteria about something they didn't like, being put on the spot and, you know, holding my lunch and standing there not sure what to do or how to handle it.
我当时想，我根本不适合这份工作。
I thought, I am terrible at this job.
在每个行业里，都有数以百万计的像斯蒂芬妮这样的人。
There are millions of Stephanie's everywhere in every industry.
没错。
Right.
你擅长教学，并不意味着你就能当好校长。
Just because you're a good teacher doesn't mean you're gonna be a good principal.
你是个优秀的律师，并不意味着你就能为律师事务所招揽新客户。
And just because you're a good lawyer doesn't mean you're gonna be good at bringing in new clients to the law firm.
这就是彼得原理。
This is the Peter Principle.
它源自上世纪七十年代初一位名叫劳伦斯·J·彼得的教授所写的畅销书。
It comes from a best selling book back in the early seventies by a professor, Lawrence j Peter.
实际上，莎拉，这原本是个玩笑。
And it was actually, Sarah, kind of a joke.
当然。
Of course.
我们所有的法律都是笑话。
All of our laws are jokes.
这个是讽刺。
This one was satire.
彼得博士想表达的观点是，看看周围。
And the point that doctor Peter was trying to make was, look around.
这就是为什么这么多人在工作中表现糟糕的原因。
This is the explanation for why so many people are bad at their jobs.
为什么这么多错误一再发生，为什么这么多人讨厌自己的工作。
Why so many mistakes just happen over and over again, and why so many people hate their jobs.
就像斯蒂芬妮·伯恩。
Like Stephanie Byrne.
而斯蒂芬妮的特别之处在于，她有足够的自知之明，能够意识到并承认这一点，而且还采取了行动。
And Stephanie is rare in that she is self aware enough to know it and admit it, and also to do something about it.
Stephanie 正通过主动辞去新获得的更高职位来对抗彼得原理。
Stephanie is fighting the Peter Principle by stepping down from her new bigger job.
今天实际上是我在这个职位上的最后一天。
Today is actually my very last day in it.
她不会辞职。
She isn't gonna quit.
她打算主动降职。
She's going to demote herself.
她去找了她的老板，说：嘿。
She went and talked to her boss, she said, hey.
我想回到我以前的那份工作，那份我热爱的、我擅长的工作。
I want a job like my old one, the one that I love, the one that I was good at.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我不确定有多少人会承认自己应该被降职，但对我来说，这让我更快乐，也让我觉得自己能做得更好。
You know, I I don't know that a lot of people will admit that they should be demoted, but I think for me, it makes me happier, and it makes me feel like I can do a better job.
而且我现在对自己的工作非常熟悉，感觉自己的能力也提升了。
And I feel smarter at what I do because I know my job so well now.
自我降职。
Self demotion.
这是避开彼得原理的一种方式。
That is one way to beat the Peter Principle.
好的。
Okay.
干得漂亮，亚历克斯。
Nice job, Alex.
报告做得不错，但可别有别的想法。
Good job reporting, but don't get any ideas.
我觉得你得去参加一些重要的会议。
I think there are some important meetings you have to go to.
我觉得今天是发薪日。
I think it's payroll day today.
好吧。
Alright.
我去找肯尼。
I'm gonna go find Kenny.
让他回来这里。
Tell him to come on back in here.
非常感谢你，莎拉。
Thanks a lot, Sarah.
谢谢，亚历克斯。
Thanks, Alex.
广告后，我们将寻找一条并非始于笑话的法律。
After the break, we go searching for a law that did not start as a joke.
好吧。
Alright.
对于最后这条法律，我们觉得需要找一条不是单纯源于对糟糕管理或懒惰拖延的笑话的法律。
For this last law, we figured we need something that did not just start out as a joke about crappy management or lousy procrastination.
我们的最后一项法则来自爱丽丝·埃文斯。
Our final law comes from Alice Evans.
我有一个很长又无聊的头衔，但你们可以删掉它。
And I've got a long boring title, but you should cut it.
我是伦敦国王学院的讲师。
I'm a lecturer at King's College London.
我的头衔是社会科学领域的讲师。
My title is a lecturer in the social.
什么？
What?
她告诉我们可以删掉它。
She told us we could cut it.
你们真正需要了解的是，爱丽丝是一位这样的教授：每当有新的世界银行报告发布，她都会像看《权力的游戏》一样实时发推表达自己的反应。
What you really need to know about Alice is that she is the kind of professor who, when a brand new World Bank report comes out, she live tweets her reactions as if she is watching Game of Thrones.
爱丽丝告诉我们的这项法则有充分的文献记载，但据我们所知，它还没有一个正式名称。
And the law that Alice told us about is pretty well documented, but as far as we know, it doesn't have a name.
但这是爱丽丝的解释方式。
But here's how Alice explains it.
当我们看到他人正在改变时，社会变革就会加速。
Social change accelerates when we see that others are changing.
换句话说，人们希望改变。
In other words, people want to change.
他们只是想先看到别人这么做。
They just wanna see other people do it first.
但这是一个雪球效应的过程。
But it's it's this process of a snowball.
对。
Yeah.
但棘手的问题是，你该如何让这个雪球最初动起来呢？
But the tricky thing is how do you get that snowball to move in the first place?
让我给你举四个例子。
So let me give you four examples.
四个例子。
Four examples.
这太棒了。
This is great.
你可以挑选你感兴趣的
You can pick and choose which
那一个。
one you like.
乌干达曾有一个出色的干预措施。
So there was this brilliant intervention in Uganda.
这是贫困行动创新组织（IPA）的一项干预措施。
This was an intervention by Innovations for Poverty Action, IPA.
乌干达当时正面临家庭暴力问题。
Uganda was struggling with domestic violence.
家庭暴力发生率高得惊人，但人们似乎并不举报虐待行为。
It was happening at alarming rates, and people didn't seem to be reporting abuse.
必须做出一些改变。
Something needed to change.
但根据这项没有名字的法律，你不能只是告诉人们该做什么。
But per this law with no name, you shouldn't just tell people to do something.
你应该向他们展示其他人正在这样做。
You should show them that other people are doing it.
因此，IPA开展了一项视频宣传活动，本质上就是这么做。
And so IPA ran a video campaign doing essentially that.
所以这段视频并没有告诉人们基于性别的暴力是错误的。
So the video did not tell people that gender based violence is wrong.
它只是展示了人们走出去、举报暴力行为，并得到社区支持的画面。
All it showed is people going out, reporting it, and being supported by their community.
他们在六个月内发现，这导致举报数量迅速增加，基于性别的暴力行为大幅减少。
And what they found within six months is this led to a rapid increase in reporting and a big reduction in gender based violence.
有很多这样的例子，通过这种方式改变社会规范。
There are a bunch of examples of changing social norms this way.
比如，大学里的酗酒问题。
For example, college binge drinking.
研究人员没有张贴‘酗酒很糟糕’的海报，而是贴了告示，大意是：实际数据显示，你的同学喝的酒比你想象的少得多。
Instead of putting up posters that said binge drinking is bad, researchers put up signs that essentially said, hey, actual statistics show that your classmates don't drink as much as you think they drink.
这种方法似乎奏效了。
And that approach seemed to work.
所以，这种做法让我想到，我觉得我有个问题，或许可以用这个方法解决。
So this approach, it occurred to me, I think I have a problem that this could help fix.
艾丽丝，我知道你的工作通常涉及非常重要的全球政治和高风险议题。
So Alice, I know that typically your job deals with very important global political high stakes issues.
但你能不能跟我聊聊，为什么我办公室里没人洗碗？
But would you mind talking to me about the fact that no one at my office washes dishes?
说吧。
Shoot.
没问题吧？
It's okay?
是的。
Yeah.
走吧。
Let's go.
我们办公室的人总是把脏盘子留在水槽里。
People in our office are leaving dirty dishes in the sink all the time.
所以我的想法是，如果我们和办公室经理合作，贴一些不直接说‘你们应该洗碗’的海报，会怎么样？
And so my idea was like, what if we worked with the office manager to put up posters that didn't say, hey, you should do dishes.
如果海报上写的是‘你知道吗？别人都经常洗碗呢？’会怎样？
What if instead they said, hey, did you know everybody else does the dishes a bunch?
爱丽丝说：不行，这种方法只有在你讲真话的情况下才有效。
And Alice was like, no, this approach only works if you are actually telling the truth.
所以我不会搞虚假宣传。
So I wouldn't run a fake campaign.
我觉得这非常危险，因为如果人们发现办公室经理在贴假海报，就可能破坏办公室的信任，影响方方面面的
I think that's really dangerous because if people realize that the office manager is putting up fake posters, then that could undermine trust in the office and affect all sorts of
其他事情。
other things.
所以我会
So I would
我不会那样做，肯尼。
I wouldn't do that, Kenny.
我能拿赞比亚农村的情况做个类比吗？
Can I draw parallels with rural Zambia here?
请说。
Please.
比如，在偏远的
So for example, in remote
亚历克斯说，在赞比亚偏远地区，医护人员常常觉得没人关心他们的工作。
Alex says that in remote parts of Zambia, health care workers often feel like no one cares what they're doing.
这打击了员工的士气，使他们难以准时到岗并全力以赴工作。
This curbs worker morale, makes it hard for them to show up and to do their best work.
但真正有帮助的一件事是，当主管们开始为员工的工作颁发奖杯时。
But one thing that really helped was when supervisors started awarding a trophy for people's work.
甚至没有附带奖金。
There wasn't even money attached.
只是一个奖杯。
It was just a trophy.
就是那种被认可的感觉，有人告诉你你在努力，有人为此给予奖励。
Just that sense of being appreciated, people saying that you're making an effort and people rewarding that.
我认为，关于你的洗碗问题，Kenny，我们可以从中学到一些东西。
And I think that's something that we could learn from with regards to your dishes problem, Kenny.
你是说，我应该搞一个超级棒的洗碗奖杯？
You're saying I should make an amazing dishwashing trophy.
你意思是这样吗？
Is that what you're saying?
我觉得这可能会很酷。
I think that could be cool.
是的
Yeah.
我完全可以为这个故事报销一个洗碗奖杯的费用。
I 100% can expense a dishwashing trophy for this story.
是的
Yeah.
这些就是你们办公室的规矩了，各位。
Those are your laws of the office, folks.
而且再一次，我们把它们做成了一个精美的海报。
And once more, we have turned them into a wonderful poster.
如果你在谷歌上搜索OSHA安全海报，那就是它的样子，因为我们没有地方让你搜索我们的海报。
If you Google OSHA safety poster, that's what it looks like because we don't have a place for you to Google our poster.
但你可以想象它会是什么样子。
But you can see what it would look like.
而且，再次说明，这是我们的书籍《星球金钱》的一部分，一本关于塑造你生活的隐性力量的指南。
And, again, this is part of our book, Planet Money, a guide to the hidden forces that shape your life.
如果你在4月7日前预购这本书，就会免费获得这张海报，作为对你预购的感谢。
If you preorder the book before April 7, you get the poster as a free gift, as a thank you for preordering the book.
而且整本书都充满了这类视觉幽默。
And the whole book in general is just filled with, like, these kinds of visual jokes.
书中有一张关于牙仙通胀的图表。
There's a chart on tooth fairy inflation.
还有一整版来自‘真实经济学家’的情感建议专栏。
There's, like, a whole love advice column from Real Economist.
这本书色彩丰富、明亮，读起来真的非常愉快。
It's it's truly it's, like, colorful and bright, the book, and really, it's just, like, a joy to read.
所以请前往 planetmoneybook.com 了解关于海报和我们在12座城市的读书会活动的信息，因为确实如此。
So go to planetmoneybook.com for info about the poster and about our book tour in 12 cities, because that's right.
《Planet Money》即将开启一场真正的图书巡演。
Planet Money is going on tour on a real book tour.
这次读书会是认真的，各位。
The book tour is for real, everybody.
这就像读书分享会加上现场的Planet Money，再加上粉丝见面会。
It's like book talk meets live planet money meets beat and greet.
简直就是所有元素的集合。
Like, it it's all of the things.
我将在洛杉矶和联合主持人尼克·福ountain一起主持一场活动，你们认识这个人。
I'm hosting one in LA with cohost Nick Fountain, and you guys know this person.
他是个名人，杰克·科贝特，就是那个我们著名的真人？
He's a celebrity, Jack Corbett, our famous For real?
TikTok红人。
TikTok guy.
所以，如果你在
So, you know, if you're
在洛杉矶？洛杉矶那场？
in LA LA one?
就是洛杉矶那场。
That's the LA one.
我将会在旧金山。
I will be in San Francisco.
这将会非常有趣。
It's gonna be very fun.
我相信我们邀请到了Anthropic的联合创始人之一，那是一家最前沿的AI公司。
I believe we have one of the cofounders of Anthropic is gonna be there, one of the most cutting edge AI companies.
所以我们有一些问题，太好了。
So we got some questions Cool.
关于Anthropic的问题。
For Anthropic.
很棒。
Great.
我还会去波特兰和西雅图。
I'll also be in Portland, Seattle.
和我们多待一段时间。
Spend some time with us.
这些现场活动的门票信息以及购买书籍的链接，请访问 planetmoneybook.com，或点击节目说明中的链接。
And you can find ticket information for these live events and a link to where to buy the book at planetmoneybook.com, or you can click on the link in the show notes.
本集节目由亚历克西·霍罗维茨-加齐制作。
This episode was produced by Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi.
本集节目由布莱恩特·乌尔施塔特编辑。
It was edited by Bryant Urstadt.
我们的资深制作主管是亚历克斯·戈德马克。
And our competent supervising producer is Alex Goldmark.
如果你有任何我们认为值得关注的法律，欢迎给我们发邮件。
If you have a law that you think we should know about, you can email us.
我们的邮箱是 planetmoney@npr.org。
We are planetmoney@npr.org.
特别感谢前 Planet Money 实习生谢恩·麦基汉。
And special thanks to former Planet Money intern Shane McKeehan.
他负责了本集最重要的部分。
He handled the most important part of this episode.
是的。
Yeah.
我忘了这件事。
I forgot about this.
所以我有个奇怪的要求。
So I have a weird request.
我想做一个顶部放着金色马克杯的奖杯。
I'm trying to make a trophy with a golden mug on top.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，我们让Planet Money实习生Shane去定制了一个‘恭喜，厨房干净了’的奖杯。
Of course, we asked Shane, the Planet Money intern, to go and custom order a congratulations, the kitchen is clean trophy.
是的。
Yeah.
所以它只需要写上‘盘子都洗完了’就行了。
So all it needs to say is the dishes are all done.
谢恩买了一个五英尺高的奖杯。
Shane bought a five foot tall trophy.
然后在末尾加上一个感叹号。
And then let's throw an exclamation point on the end.
奖杯最顶端是一个真的马克杯，喷成了金色。
It had a real mug spray painted gold on the very top.
当盘子都洗干净时，这个巨大的奖杯就会出现。
And when the dishes were clean, this giant trophy would show up.
如果没洗干净，奖杯就会消失。
If they weren't, the trophy disappeared.
我们放了一个录音设备，让人们自己去发现其中的奥秘。
We left a recorder out, and we just let people figure it out.
它在滚动。
It's rolling.
在这儿。
Here.
好吧。
Alright.
所以有个超大的奖杯。
So there's this giant ass trophy.
上面贴着叉子和刀，所以我猜这是某种进食比赛的奖项。
It has fork and knife taped to it, so I imagine it's an award for eating of some kind.
我觉得我正在被进行一场未经我同意的心理实验。
I feel like a psychological experiment is being conducted without my consent.
哦，我猜这是给
Oh, I bet this is for
《Planet Money》播客关于办公室问题的那期的奖。
the Planet Money Podcast about office problems.
脏东西。
Dirty thing.
是的。
Yeah.
哎呀。
Uh-oh.
没有奖杯。
There's no trophy.
水槽里有一把脏勺子。
There's a dirty spoon in the sink.
这不是我的，但我还是会洗掉，这样我们就能
It's not mine, but I will wash it so that we can
把奖杯拿回来。
get the trophy back.
盘子都洗好了。
The dishes are all done.
是的。
Yes.
但因为我看到了奖杯，我感觉被一个奖杯骗了。
But because I because I see the trophy, I feel like I'm being tricked by a trophy.
仅仅一个奖杯就会让我想这么做。
Just a trophy would make me wanna do that.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
也许我
Maybe I'm
不会洗任何盘子了。
not gonna wash any dishes.
奖杯又不见了。
The trophy has disappeared again.
水槽里有一些盘子。
There's some dishes in the sink.
监制亚历克斯·戈德马克正在洗。
Supervising producer Alex Goldmark is doing them.
带着灿烂的笑容，因为
With a big smile because
我知道我会得到一个奖杯。
I know I'm gonna get a trophy.
这个
This
这虽然很不科学，但我还是要说。
was quite unscientific, but I'm just gonna say it.
我觉得没洗的盘子少了很多。
I think there were way fewer unwashed dishes.
是的。
Yeah.
看起来有效果。
It seemed to work.
我是肯尼·马隆。
I'm Kenny Malone.
我是莎拉·冈萨雷斯。
And I'm Sarah Gonzalez.
谢谢收听。
Thanks for listening.
这一集内容太杂了。
This episode was all over the place.
是肯尼打破了一条规则。
It's Kenny breaking a rule.
是亚历克西在临时突击学习。
It's Alexi, like, crash coursing.
是制作了一个奖杯。
It's making a trophy.
是的。
Yeah.
很棒。
It was great.
这是一集很棒的节目。
It's a great episode.
我一点都记不起来了。
I don't remember it at all.
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