第一季第二集：马歇尔·亚当斯

欢迎收听《Pluribus》官方播客，这是一档与剧集幕后主创和演员们深入探讨Apple TV剧集制作内幕的亲密对话节目。

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show.

我是克里斯·麦卡莱布。

My name is Chris McCaleb.

我是《Pluribus》的编辑之一，也是本播客的主持人。

I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast.

这是我们第二期特别节目。

And this is our second bonus episode.

与常规播客的圆桌讨论不同，这些特别节目通常采用一对一访谈形式，我认为这很令人兴奋，因为能容纳更多人的声音和故事。

These are typically one on one conversations as opposed to the round table conversations that we have on the regular podcast, which I think is exciting because we're able to include more people's voices and their stories.

包括那些在我们录制期间无法亲临洛杉矶的演职人员。

Often cast and crew, people who can't be physically in Los Angeles when we do our recording sessions.

在本期特别节目中，我们邀请到《风骚律师》剧迷们熟悉的一位嘉宾。

So for this second bonus episode, we have a familiar guest for fans of Better Call Saul.

让我们欢迎本剧第1、2、4、6、8集的摄影指导——马歇尔·亚当斯。

Please welcome to the podcast, director of photography for episodes one, two, four, six, and eight, Marshall Adams.

马歇尔，非常感谢你今天参加我们的播客。

Marshall, thanks a lot for joining us on the podcast today.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的荣幸，克里斯。

My pleasure, Chris.

很高兴能来参加，伙计。

It's good to be here, man.

是啊。

Yeah.

已经...已经很久了。

It's been it's been a while.

对。

Yeah.

我...我在努力回想上次见到你是什么时候。

I haven't I'm trying to remember the last time I would have seen you.

我敢肯定和《风骚律师》有关。

I'm sure it's something Better Call Saul related.

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

可能是在某个播客节目里吧。

It might have been even a podcast or yeah.

这是我能想到的唯一可能了。

Or It's the only thing I could think of.

很可能没错。

Probably right.

首先我想聊的是，你知道，我们会在102集发布这个，但我想先谈谈101集那个长镜头——卡罗尔在卡车里驶过阿尔伯克基废墟的场景。

So the first thing I wanted to talk about, we you know, we are we're releasing this with one zero two, but I do want to talk about that oner in one zero one that where Carol is in the truck and she's driving through the wreckage of Albuquerque.

那真是个充满张力、激动人心、疯狂又大胆的镜头，眼尖的观众会发现《风骚律师》的编剧之一汤姆·施瑙的客串出演。

And that is such a dynamic, exciting, crazy, ballsy thing, and eagle eyed viewers will notice a cameo appearance from one of the writers of Better Call Saul, Tom Schnow.

那个镜头，我是说，完成它的过程我听说了一些，但我更想听你亲口说说。

That shot, I mean, how accomplishing it and I've heard a few things, but I'd love to hear it from you.

完成这样的作品，你们最初是怎么开始的？

Accomplishing how do you even start?

比如，具体是怎么筹备的？

Like, how do you set that up?

而且涉及很多环节。

And it's many blocks.

对，就和我聊聊技术细节以及如何实现它的吧。

And, yeah, just talk to me about the the mechanics and the pulling that off.

嗯，最初源于文斯的一个想法，他不断拓展完善，规模就越搞越大了。

Well, it started out kind of with this with an idea that Vince obviously had and developed and just got bigger and bigger and bigger.

文斯想实现的效果之一，就是尽可能多地用近景和广角镜头捕捉雷伊。

One of the things that Vince wanted to do was to be close and wide on Ray as much as we could.

这意味着摄像机必须离她相当近。

So that meant the camera was fairly close to her.

这导致街灯几乎全程都会在画面上投下摄像机阴影。

And what that meant for me was that we were gonna have camera shadows from the streetlights almost throughout.

所以我最初尝试用投影仪解决，最终搞了整套LED系统。

So one of the things that I started to play with was originally putting a projector up there, eventually ended up with a whole LED system.

我们用装有LED面板的卡车围住车头前方，那块面板大概12英尺宽5英尺高。

So we surrounded the whole front of that car with a truck with an LED panel that was probably 12 feet wide and five feet tall.

哇哦。

Woah.

是的。

Yeah.

那简直太疯狂了。

It was pretty crazy.

然后我们用A摄像机拍摄镜头，B摄像机朝前，还精细调整了镜头，这样雷就能与环境互动。她看到的实时画面，本质上就是我们用LED屏幕给她打光的效果。

And then we used the A camera to shoot the shot and the B camera facing forward and had to fine tune the lens just so that Ray could interact with her surroundings So she had a live image, which is what we used to light her with essentially from the LED screens.

她看到的实时画面意味着，当物体从LED屏幕消失的瞬间，就会出现在她的余光里，因为我显然不想剥夺她这种体验。

She had a live image that literally the moment things disappeared off the LED screen, they would appear in her peripheral vision because I didn't want to obviously take that away from her.

她需要能一直看到面前的东西。

She needed to be able to the things that in front of her the whole time.

这太疯狂了。

So that's crazy.

所以这一切都是在创造所有的反射效果

So so all of that was creating all of the reflections

步枪

The riffle

同时也让她能真正看清发生了什么，因为她不是电影特效。

and and also enabling her to actually see what was going on, because she's not movie magic.

她并不是真的在开那辆卡车。

She's not actually driving that truck.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

它是在饼干上的。

It was on the Biscuit.

我猜它是为海饼干开发的，但本质上就是一辆简化版的特斯拉，带有一个非常平坦的底盘，可以把车辆放上去让它低姿态行驶，而且是电动的，非常安静，能载几个必要的人员观看视频并见证它驶过。

I I guess it was developed for Seabiscuit, but, it's essentially a stripped down Tesla with a very flat bed that you can put, you know, the vehicle on so that it rides low, and it's electric, super quiet, and can carry a few necessary people that can watch the video and be there to see it go down.

所以它最初只是一个小点子，然后不断壮大、壮大、再壮大，直到变成一个极其庞大的制作。

So it started out with a kind of a a small idea and grew and grew and grew until it was a huge, huge production.

那你们怎么打光呢？

And then how do you light that?

我是说，这么庞大的场景怎么打光。

I mean, how it's such a huge section.

有实景光源。

There's there's practical.

有火焰效果。

There's fire.

我不确定...我不知道那场戏用了多少群演。

There's I don't I don't know how many extras are in that scene.

你们是怎么规划打光的？

How do you go about planning to light it?

场面调度是怎么安排的？

How do you go about blocking it?

我是说...能不能详细说说这个流程？

I mean, how how does that talk me through that process.

所以我真的开车去那里很多次，在街道那一侧向前行驶时拍摄视频，然后倒放观察半夜的灯光效果，这样我们就能强化需要补充的部分——但大部分都是实景光源，这也正是我遇到的阴影问题，就是摄影机产生的阴影。

So I literally drove down there with my car a number of times and shot video driving forward on that side of the street and then would play it backwards and watch the lights and the lighting that was there in the middle of the night so that we could accentuate what we wanted to add a little bit but for the most part, it's it's practical which is the issue that I had with the shadows, you know, with the camera shadows.

所以这基本上就是我必须把它拿走的原因。

So that's essentially why I had to take it away.

屏幕覆盖了整个卡车前部，安装在引擎盖上，然后上面有一个杜维廷盖子，用来防止光线阴影进入挡风玻璃。

So the screen is, you know, all across the front of the truck sitting on the hood, and then there's a duvetine lid on it to keep it from, you know, keep the shadows of light from kind of getting into the windshield.

所以你看到的所有灯光，所有互动灯光都来自屏幕本身。

So all the lighting that you see, all the interactive lighting is from the screens themselves.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

但即使如此，因为我们确实能看到背景。

But even but in the you know, because we are definitely seeing the background.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我是说，你在增强那些灯光吗？

I mean, I are you augmenting those lights?

你是换了灯泡还是怎样，还是只是街灯？

Are you you're, like, swapping bulbs out or anything, or is it just street lights?

不是。

No.

只是街灯，然后我们在一些建筑物上下和其他地方额外添加的灯光，因为我们想确保能看到背景中有人跑进来或跳进来，还有几个必要的场景。

It's just street lights and then extra lights that we added down some of the buildings and up some of the buildings and, you know, all over the place because we wanted to make sure we saw the guy kind of run-in in the background or hop in, as you say, and a couple of other necessary moments.

另一个有趣的意外是水，因为消防栓爆裂导致水流过来。

The other one was that was kind of an interesting surprise was the water that, you know, came across because the fire hydrant shot off.

对。

Right.

显然我们没法在LED屏幕上实现这个效果。

And we obviously couldn't do that onto the LED screen.

所以我们真的让特效人员坐在车里，在画面经过挡风玻璃的瞬间进行击打，让效果看起来浑然天成。

So we literally had an effects guy riding on the car with us who hit the windshield at the moment we see it kind of go past or just in front of it, it feels like it's organic.

这个我真没想到。

That's I had no idea.

我虽然看过《每日秀》，但主要熟悉的是它的剪辑风格。

That's so like, I I've seen The Daily, but mostly I'm familiar with the cut of it.

这个镜头最妙的是，我觉得大多数人根本意识不到其中的复杂性。

What's kind of amazing about that shot is I think most people aren't even thinking about the complexity.

他们只会想：等等。

They're like, wait a second.

这是怎么做到的？

How is this happening?

就像，怎么会这样？

Like, how is this?

但这是真实的。

But it's real.

她不是在绿幕前表演驾驶。

She's not driving against a green screen.

就像你说的，这是实景拍摄。

Like you said, it's practical.

你会逐渐忘记其中的复杂性，因为你找到了一种让我们能真正专注于她表现的方法。

And you kind of start to forget about the complexity of it because you figured out a way that we could really just focus on her performance.

嗯，希望如此，这基本上就是我的工作。

Well, hopefully, that's my job in a nutshell.

你知道，其实就是要把那些干扰因素都消除掉——如果存在的话——这样才会有身临其境的感觉，明白吗？

You know, it really is to kind of take all that stuff away if if it exists so that it feels like you're there and you're in it, you know?

对此我向你脱帽致敬。

My hat is off to you on that.

这真的太不可思议了。

It's that is so incredible.

你知道，你通过《风骚律师》和文斯合作多年，还拍了《续命之徒》。

You know, you've been working with Vince for years now through Better Call Saul, and you shot El Camino.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

I did.

是的。

I did.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

电影画面很棒。

Great looking movie.

来谈谈这部剧的不同视觉效果，你知道的，就是这种逐渐调整出来的感觉。

So talk about the the different look of this show, you know, sort of dialing in this.

我听人形容过，像是柯达克罗姆胶片的风格。

I've heard it described as, like, a Kodachrome look.

是的。

Yeah.

在很多方面，我们使用的是相同的摄影系统。

In a lot of ways, I mean, we use the same camera system.

柯达克罗姆这个想法是文斯早期提出的，我们和制作设计师丹尼斯一起探索，试图赋予它一种风格化的感觉。

The the Kodachrome idea was an idea that Vince had early on that we kind of explored and with Denise, our production designer, some of the ideas of giving it a kind of a stylized feel.

但文斯特别强调的一点是，这种效果要从第二集开头才开始出现。

But one of the things that Vince wanted to make sure was that it didn't start until actually the beginning of episode two.

所以第一集保持着常规色调，当世界观改变后效果才逐渐显现。

So episode one has a kind of a normal color on it, then it dials in once the world changes.

那时它才真正出现，并在后续剧集中持续体现。

That's when it kind of appears, and you feel it throughout the rest.

虽然很微妙，但确实带着柯达克罗姆特有的氛围。

I mean, it's fairly subtle, but it definitely has a Kodachrome kind of vibe to it.

强化了偏红的色调，同时其他颜色则略显褪色。

It's an accentuated kind of reddish colors and a little desaturated in some of the other colors.

这是个非常棒的主意，呈现效果也很出色。

It's it's a very cool idea, and it was a it's a great look.

它带着某种...我说不上来，一种永恒的质感，让你不自觉地联想到老照片之类的画面。

And it has a, I don't know, a kind of a timeless quality to it that you you don't even realize that you recognize from, you know, from pictures, old photographs, and things like that.

那么

So

你究竟如何确定最终效果会是怎样的？

And how do you really narrow in on what that's going to be?

你们会做测试吗？

Are you doing tests?

我们有出色的调色师大卫·科尔，他参与过《埃尔卡米诺》的制作，当然还有我们的执行制片人黛安·默瑟负责后期制作，以及文斯，也就是你。

We have this great colorist, Dave Cole, who also did El Camino, and then, of course, Diane Mercer, our executive producer who runs post production, and Vince, you.

这个过程是怎样的？

What is the process like?

需要反复试验吗？

There a trial and error?

是不是会有类似‘我们稍微调整下颜色方向或饱和度’这样的讨论？

Is there like, Oh, let's tweak the colors a bit this way, or the saturation?

具体流程是什么样的？

What's that process like?

嗯，戴夫在拿到每日样片后会即时做出很多调整决定。

Well, Dave makes a lot of those calls on the fly once he gets the dailies.

没有任何方案能完美适应所有场景。

Nothing ever fits perfectly for all scenarios.

总需要做些微调。

You have to tweak it a little bit.

是的，我们做过测试拍摄。

Yeah, we shot tests.

我们带了一台相机出来，在舞台附近的角落拍摄了一些测试镜头。

We brought a camera out and we shot some tests on the corner over by where the stage is.

我们所有人都从阿尔伯克基去了洛杉矶，显然，看了看测试结果并调整了一些想法。

And all of us went to LA from Albuquerque, obviously, and took a look at the test and tweaked some ideas.

戴夫提出了很多方案，各有不同的特点和想法，最终我们找到了一个我们认为非常合适的方案。

Dave had a whole number of pitches, some different qualities and different ideas, and we came up with something that we thought really fit well.

总的来说，我认为这个方案应用得非常成功。

And for the most part, I think it applied really well.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

这部剧看起来，我对这部剧呈现的效果非常满意。

The show looks, I'm so happy with the way this show looks.

这部剧里有很多内容。

There's been a lot on this show.

特别是这一集，有很多关于飞机的场景。

There's especially in this episode, there's a lot of airplane business.

有C-130运输机。

There's the c one thirty.

还有空军一号。

There's Air Force one.

我听说了一些关于将C-130运输机的合成画面与背景中的废墟镜头结合的事情。

I had heard something about modeling the composite of the C-one 130 over the background, the sort of wreckage footage.

你想谈谈你们是如何做到让这一切看起来完全真实的吗？

Do you want to talk about how you accomplished making that seem completely real?

嗯，显然这是团队合作的成果。

Well, obviously, it's a team effort.

但我有这个想法。

But I had this idea.

我认为这个想法最初是丹尼斯提出的。

I think it actually came from Denise originally.

我们显然不能把残骸放在跑道上，而我们希望

We we obviously couldn't put the records on the runway, and we wanted it

这是我们的美术指导丹尼斯。

It's our production designer, Denise.

对。

Yeah.

我们希望它在灯光和背景上能匹配，当它们被放置进去时能真正感觉像是原本就在那里。

We wanted it to match lighting wise and background wise and really feel like it was there once they placed it in.

所以最初的想法——或者说我们最终采用的方案——是使用滑行道，它紧邻我们用于放置残骸的真实跑道。

So the thought was or actually what we ended up with was a taxiway which is directly next to the actual runway we would use for the wreckage.

但它一直延伸到远端。

But it came all the way to the far end.

关于跑道的特点是它们几乎有一英里长。

The thing about runways is that they're almost a mile long.

所以我们知道摄像机不可能放在跑道上，它距离起飞点可能至少有半英里远，因此必须使用超长焦镜头。

So we knew that the camera couldn't be on the runway was going to probably be at least a half a mile away from the takeoff point so that it was going to be an extremely long lens.

哦，天哪。

Oh, jeez.

是的。

Yeah.

我想说是750毫米。

It was seven fifty mils, I want to say it was.

天啊。

Oh my god.

对。

Yeah.

那是个超长焦镜头。

Was a really long lens.

但这样做的意义在于，当我们将坠机现场布置在滑行道末端时，第二台摄影机就能实现双机同步拍摄。

But what that meant was when we put the crash site at the end of the taxiway, the second camera, what we wanted to do was shoot the two cameras simultaneously.

这样我们就能确保完全相同的灯光和拍摄条件。

So we had the exact same lightings, exact same conditions.

于是他们在滑行道上搭建了绿幕和所有残骸布景。

So they built the green screen and all the wreckage on the taxiway.

这意味着我必须将摄影机从起飞点后退到与另一台机位等距的位置——那个位置距离机场围栏只有约50英尺，几乎要撞上围墙了。

And what that meant was I had to back the camera up this equal distance from our takeoff point from where the other camera was, which was literally, like, 50 feet from running into a fence that was the fence line of the airport property.

不过我们那次运气特别好。

But we got extremely lucky with that.

所以我用SketchUp建了机场模型，标出两台摄影机位置，并计算出第二台机的精确GPS坐标。

So I I built a sketch up model of the airport and plopped the two cameras down and figured out what the exact GPS coordinates of the second camera would be.

什么？

What?

我们把设备放在这片田野中央，平行摆放使其与跑道齐平，距离残骸半英里远，这样就能匹配另一个镜头的尺寸。

And and we took it out in the middle of this field, you know, up on parallel so that it could be even level with the runway And it's a half mile away from the wreckage yet to match the other camera lens size.

所以我们有两个20倍变焦镜头，可以自由选择需要的尺寸，诸如此类。

So we had two of these 20 to one zoom lenses so that we could pick our size, you know, that we wanted and everything.

是的。

Yeah.

这相当复杂。

It was pretty involved.

现在看起来真酷。

Now it's pretty cool.

它们不是同时拍摄的。

They weren't being shot simultaneously.

对吧？

Right?

是同时的。

Were.

绝对是同时的。

Absolutely were.

它们是同时拍摄的，两台摄像机朝同一方向，字面意义上的同步。

They were shot at the same time, you know, literally from the two camera positions that are facing the same direction.

没错。

Exactly.

所以它们完美地对齐了。

So they were lined up perfectly.

这简直不可思议。

It was pretty incredible.

正如你所想，我们花了一些时间才准备好，但它们确实是同时拍摄的。

It took us a while to get it together, as you can imagine, but but they were literally shot at the same time.

这太不可思议了。

And the that's incredible.

你构建的那个模型是数字模型吗？还是像《回到未来3》里那样，他们建造了所有火车之类的东西？

The the model that you built, is that a digital model, or was it, like, Back to the Future three where they have they build all the trains and stuff like that?

我使用了一个叫SketchUp的程序，这是个3D建模工具，可以下载各种素材。

So I use a program called SketchUp, which is a three d modeler, and I can download things.

我用过它。

I've used it.

我在Saul项目上用了不少。

I used it on Saul quite a bit.

我记得看到过。

I remember seeing that.

是的。

Yeah.

这是我第一次真正用它来处理GPS坐标和实际定位，因为我可以从被告知的C-130运输机起飞点画一条线，把这条线移到滑行道上，精确计算另一台摄像机需要放置多远。

So this was the first time I really used it for, like, GPS coordinates and the actual placement because I could draw a line from what we were told would be the takeoff point of the C-one 130 and to use that line and move it over to the taxiway and see exactly how far away the other camera needed to be.

结果证明相当精确。

So It turned out to be pretty precise.

实际效果真的非常非常好。

It actually worked out really, really well.

我对此很满意。

I was happy with it.

我想我们在节目中一直在讨论这个话题，在我们与Vince和Peter Gould合作的前几季中也是如此。

I think we keep talking about it on the show, in previous series that we worked on with Vince and Peter Gould.

层次感，对细节的关注，我是说，每一件小事。

Level, the attention to detail that goes in, I mean, every little thing.

我是说，光是你们规划GPS坐标让两台摄像机能同时拍摄这一点。

I mean, just the fact that you were mapping out GPS coordinates so two cameras could simultaneously record.

真不敢相信你们能同时做到这一点。

I can't believe you did that simultaneously.

太疯狂了。

That's wild.

还有空军一号，我知道我们在主播客里稍微讨论过。

Also, Air Force One, I know we talk about it a bit on the main podcast.

Denise谈到他们是如何搭建那个场景的，比如当演员们走上台阶时，Samba扮演的Diabate先生站在门口，这些画面是如何通过视觉特效延伸的。

Denise talked about how they built that thing and and how like, for example, when when the actors are, like, walking up and Samba as mister Diabate is up there in the door, how it some of that is extended with visual effects.

对你来说，拍摄画面局部是什么感觉？

What is that like for you, the process of shooting parts of the frame?

或者说，那些日常素材，我相信迟早会有人展示出来让大家看看实际效果，因为还挺有趣的。

Or I mean, you the dailies are I'm sure somebody will put it out there at some point what how what that really looks like, because it's kind of funny.

在规划这些镜头构图时需要考虑什么？明明知道只有布景的一小部分或未来成片的局部，之后还要延伸布景或替换背景。

What goes into the planning of framing those shots, knowing you only have a little tiny piece of the set or a little tiny piece of what it's going to be, and that we're then going to extend the set or we're going to replace the background.

这对你这位对成像和构图如此精确的摄影指导来说，会带来哪些挑战？

What challenges does that present to you as a director of photography who is so precise with your imaging and your framing?

跟我聊聊这对你来说是什么感受。

Talk to me about what that's like for you.

嗯，再次说明，你知道，有趣的是，我为了理清思路，又在SketchUp里重建了空军一号的模型，就让它停在跑道上，想象它会是什么样子，摄像机应该放在哪些位置，如何展示它等等。

Well, again, you know, interestingly enough, I kind of just to wrap my head around it, I built the Air Force One in SketchUp again, sitting on the runway and imagining kind of what it would look like, what camera positions would be, would show it off and things like that.

然后与视觉效果团队协调时，他们显然给我们提供了很多建议，比如哪些角度需要多少绿幕，飞机周围需要多少覆盖范围，以及具体需要哪些部件。

And then in coordinating with visual effects, obviously they were giving us ideas about how much green we needed for green screen on certain angles, how much we needed coverage around the plane and what bits and pieces.

但这过程相当酷而且非常高效。

But it was pretty cool and very efficient.

我是说，那个移动楼梯的装置是实景拍摄的。

I mean, the stair machine that rolls in was live.

我们得尽量用绿幕覆盖它，这样它才能顺利移动。

We had to cover that with green as much as we could so it could pull up.

所以你知道，幸运的是文斯，你知道的，他像往常一样把所有事情都安排好了。

So, you know, Vince, luckily, you know, he had it all laid out as he always does.

他做了所谓的'家庭作业'，所以我们清楚每个机位的位置和所有镜头的景别，我们严格执行。

He does this what he calls his homework and so we know where the camera positions and the widths of all of the shots and we stick to it.

确实如此。

We really do.

这让我的工作轻松很多，可以更好地规划事项并确定我们需要什么。

So that makes it much easier on my part to kind of plot things out and figure out what we need.

而且我们显然准备了很多备用绿幕和一个大型支架探头，随时可以根据需要填补空缺。

And then we obviously have a lot of extra green and a big grip probe that's ready to fill things in as necessary.

投入其中的工作量，总是让我惊叹不已。

The level of effort that goes into this, it just never fails to amaze me.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这场演出绝对是我参与过的规模最大的项目之一，无论是策划还是执行层面。

This show was definitely one of the biggest things that I've ever been involved in, planning wise and execution.

美术部门搭建了其中一些场景。

Some of the things that the art department built them.

还有空军一号内部，包括那个会议室，虽然是布景但完全还原了真实样貌。

And the inside of Air Force One, even with that meeting room, which is a set and matching genuinely what is there.

对。

Right.

这是真实的。

It's real.

所以我们有大量关于机舱内部的照片和视频资料。

So there are lots of photographs and video of that, the inside of that thing.

显然我们必须尽可能严格地参照这些素材。

So we had to obviously follow that as best we could.

作为摄影指导，你和美术指导丹尼斯的合作有多紧密？或者说在这样的大型布景中，你通常如何与美术部门协作？

As the DP, how closely are you working with Denise, the production designer, or just in general with production designers, with a set like that?

打光看起来非常写实。

It seems like the lighting just seems so practical.

简直就像是，哦，这当然就是空军一号本来的照明效果。

It just seems so, Oh, well, of course, that's just how Air Force One is lit.

但当然，这一切都是假的。

But of course, it's all fake.

我的意思是，这是一套精心制作的部件，你知道，你通过灯光让它看起来既真实又富有电影感。

I mean, it's a fabricated set of pieces, and, you know, you've lit it to appear to be real but also cinematic.

与这样的美术指导合作的具体流程是怎样的？

What is the process of working with the a production designer like that?

这个工作从什么时候开始？

When does that start?

哦，筹备阶段就立刻开始了。

Oh, it starts right away during in prep.

显然这是一个需要搭建大型布景的项目，从一开始就要参与进来。

I mean, you know, obviously, that was something that was gonna be a big set and be involved right from the beginning.

所以她和我从一开始就合作了。

So she and I started working together from the get go.

因为这个场景已经非常经典，人们要么熟悉它，要么很容易就能查到资料，所以我们尽可能想保持原貌。

And because that look has already been so established and people kind of know it or can look it up very easily, we wanted to stick to it as much as we could.

这实际上需要丹妮丝的帮助——留出大量空间让我们安装变色LED系统，这样我们就能改变色调，开发出在镜头外更亮的区域，根据需要用作主光源，可以偏置一侧或环绕前方，既给了我很多选择，又能忠实还原真实场景，这点很重要。

So that involved, for us actually, Denise's help leaving a lot of space so that we could put a lot of color changing LED systems in there so that we could change colors, we develop areas that were hotter once they were off camera, using them for key lights if you wanted to bring it off to one side or around the front or, you know, so it it gave me a lot of options and yet still was, you know, staying true to the actual place, which is important.

幸运的是他们在那里拍摄了大量视频资料，而且他们确实会使用那个房间——真正的空军一号会议室——来举行需要对外公开谈论的会议。

I mean, luckily, they've shot so much video in there, and they use that room, the real Air Force One, for meetings that they wanna be able to talk about that Right.

因此必须保持一定程度的照明以满足这个需求。

That it has to be lit to a certain extent so that they can do that.

所以这也提供了很大帮助。

So that helps a lot also.

而且我们已经见识过了。

And we we've seen it.

我们知道事物应有的样子。

We know what things look like.

所以它必须符合我们对那种场景的记忆。

So we it has to match our kind of memory of what that looks like.

是啊。

Yeah.

更不用说我一向不喜欢在你知道的这类事情上随意发挥。

And not to mention the fact that I've never been big on taking license when you know, things like that.

比如在医院里设置光束效果，人们根本不知道怎么回事，拜托。

Things like having shafts of light in a hospital where people don't know, come on.

你懂吗？

You know?

烟雾。

Smoke.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所有灯都关着。

All the lights are off.

我在想法庭或CSI实验室的场景，这可是科学实验室啊。

Like, what or I was thinking about that in, like, in courtrooms or, like, CSI when it's like, this is a science lab.

比如，他们可能会开几盏灯。

Like, think they turn some lights on.

是啊，没错。

Yeah, right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

正是如此。

Exactly.

他们只会开着这些灯，这样就不会错过任何东西。

That's all they would have on so they don't miss anything.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

不，是这样的。我是说，在灯光设计方面你确实有很多机会做些有趣的东西，但在我看来——这只是我个人观点——你必须忠实于场景本身的实际情况。

No, it's So, yeah, I mean, you get lots of great opportunities to do fun stuff lighting wise, but, yeah, you you gotta I mean, in my mind, it's just my own personal opinion, but you gotta stay true to whatever the actual set is.

你必须这么做。

You you just have to.

这...我太喜欢这个了。

That's I I love that.

嗯，最后一个我想讨论的场景是——我们在主播客里也聊过——就是卡罗尔和所有剩下的人共进午餐的那场戏，你知道的，其他那些人，他们正在做这件事。

Well, the one the one last scene I wanna talk about is the when we talked about it also on the the main pod, but the scene where Carol has lunch with all of the sort of the remaining people and, you know, the the others, and they're they're doing this.

我忘了那张桌子周围具体有多少人了，而且...

And it's what are the I forget how many people are at around that table and

十四、十五，大概是这样。

fourteen, fifteen, something like that.

也许是

Maybe it's

这是一个非常长的场景，一个对话场景，多个视角。

a it's a very long scene, a dialogue scene, multiple perspectives.

但最终，你知道，我们总是通过卡罗尔的视角看事情。

But ultimately, you know, we're always kind of seeing things through Carol's eyes.

谈谈这个挑战，文斯确实谈到了，他计划了很多镜头，如果可能的话，他不喜欢在剪辑中重复使用镜头，除非必要。

Talk about the challenge, and Vince did talk about how, I mean, he has so many shots that he's planned, and if he can, he doesn't like, in the edit, he doesn't like to repeat shots if he doesn't have to.

谈谈拍摄这样一个场景的挑战，我认为它看似简单实则复杂，因为它看起来毫不费力。

Talk about the challenges of shooting a scene like that, which I think is deceptively complex, because it feels effortless.

感觉就像是，当然，摄像机应该在这里，当然，这就是你如何构图让这个人对着那个人说话。

It feels just like, well, of course, the camera would be here, and of course, this is how you would frame that person talking to this person.

但你能谈谈拍摄这样一个场景的挑战吗？尤其是在光线变化的多天内。

But can you talk about the challenges of shooting a scene like that, especially over the course of days where the light is changing?

这才是关键。

That was the big thing.

我是说，从一开始我就提议，我觉得我们需要在他们上方搭建某种遮盖物。

I mean, it was from the beginning, I kind of pitched that I felt like we needed to have some sort of cover over the top of them.

你知道，无论是那种帆布防风罩，还是后来通过丹尼斯和她天才的想法发展成从我们拍摄的酒店延伸出来的小建筑，那家酒店在西班牙的图雷吉。

Know, whether it was a, you know, one of those kind of canvas wind covers or and then what that developed into through Denise and her genius was to actually make that that little building as an outbuilding from the hotel that we were shooting at, which is, you know, the hotel at Touregi in Spain.

所以，是的，拍摄那个场景花了整整一周时间，我们遇到了各种不同的天气，雨、阳光，你可以想象。

So, yeah, that was an entire week of shooting to get that scene, and we had lots of different weather patterns, rain, sun, as you can imagine.

从视觉效果部门得到了不少帮助，主要是用来匹配背景天空的部分。

Got a little lot of a lot of help from visual effects, kind of matching some of the, you know, the background skies.

但有了这个悬垂结构，我们就能添加一些光线而不必明显打光，也无需整天应对阳光变化。

But with the overhang, that kind of gave us a scenario where we could add a little bit of light and not necessarily feel like it was lit, and also didn't have to contend with changing sun, you know, every day, all day.

最后一个问题。

One last question.

我知道该结束了，但当导演来找你说'好，这些是需要的镜头'时——

I know we should wrap it up, but when a director comes to you and says, Okay, here are the shots.

我是说，文斯可能是个例外，但通常当导演说'好，这些就是我想要的镜头'时——

What I mean, Vince maybe is an exception, but I guess in general, when a director says, Okay, here's how here are the shots I want.

对你而言，与导演合作的具体流程是怎样的？比如确认'你是指这会花费X时间吗？'

What is the process for you of working with that director as far as saying, Okay, are you saying that's going to take X amount of time?

你会评估并规划时间吗？

Are you looking at it and budgeting out the time?

与导演、尤其是剧集导演合作的过程是怎样的？

What's the process like working with directors, episodic directors, when they come in?

嗯，每次都不太一样。

Well, it's always a little different.

他们各有各的工作方式。

They all have different approaches.

文斯准备非常非常充分，这点我多年前就领教过。

Vince is very, very prepared, and I learned a long time ago.

我通常会向导演推荐我或摄影师的想法，偶尔能采纳一两个就很不错了。

I typically try to pitch directors on ideas that I have or that the camera operator has, and and occasionally, you know, you'll get one or two or three and that's, you know, that's that's great.

和文斯合作时，你知道，他对每个镜头都考虑得面面俱到，以至于几乎没什么可改动的余地。

With Vince, you know, he has thought through every shot on so many levels that that it's kind of a nonstarter.

所以，你知道，有几次保罗和我都为自己能对镜头稍作调整、使其带有我们的风格而感到自豪，但我们始终遵循文斯的计划。

So there's been, you know, a couple of times that Paul and I have been very proud of kind of tweaking their shot just enough to kind of make it our own, but we stick to the plan with Vince.

我是说，这就是他的天才之处。

I mean, that's that's the genius with him.

因此你能和他有充分的筹备时间，可以真正深思熟虑，通过你想要的任何方式——无论是构图、布光还是你想添加的元素——让镜头臻于完美。

So you get lots of prep time with him, and you're able to really think them through and make them great in whatever way you want to, whether that's framing or lighting or something that you potentially want to add.

至于与其他导演的合作流程，这取决于他们是否喜欢前期筹备、是否喜欢制定拍摄清单。你知道，根据场景复杂度我们有时会画故事板，但合作方式总是因他们的背景和工作习惯而有所不同。

As far as the process with other directors go, it just depends on, you know, whether they like to do prep, whether they like to do shot lists, you know, sometimes we storyboard depending on the complexity of the scene, but it's always kind of a different game depending on, you know, their background is and how they've, you know, gotten used to working.

我会尽量适应他们的方式，让他们感到舒适，尽可能轻松无压力。

And I try to to adjust to that as much as I can, so it makes it, you know, as comfortable and and painless as possible for them.

嗯，我很期待大家能看到你本季与其他导演合作的作品，非常感谢你来节目做客并分享这些。

Well, I'm excited for everybody to see the work that you did with the other directors this season, and thank you very much for coming and talking about the show.

这是我的荣幸，克里斯。

My absolute pleasure, Chris.

来这里很开心。

It was great being here.

再次和你聊天很棒，伙计。

Great talking to you again, man.

是啊。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thanks.

非常酷。

Very cool.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

好的。

Alright.

感谢马歇尔·亚当斯加入我们这期102号的特别节目。

Thanks to Marshall Adams for joining us on this bonus episode for one zero two.

也感谢您收听《Pluribus》——苹果TV官方播客，由Highbridge Productions与索尼影视电视联合制作。

And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television.

请务必在苹果播客上关注我们，以便在订阅中获取下一期节目，并在可观看的地区通过苹果TV收看《Pluribus》。

Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available.

我们的剪辑与混音师是尼古拉斯·蔡。

Our editor and mixer, it's Nicholas Tsai.

主题音乐由戴夫·波特创作。

Theme music by Dave Porter.

联合制片人是阿拉娜·霍夫曼、贾斯汀·维比斯特和尼古拉斯·蔡。

Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest, and Nicholas Tsai.

执行制片人是珍·卡罗尔和我——你们的主持人克里斯·麦卡莱布。

Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb.

请在苹果播客上关注并收听。

Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.