特朗普在北极的耻辱

什么？

Like, what?

你只是在现场。

You're just the scene of the crime.

这没什么酷的。

There's nothing cool about that.

天啊。

Jesus Christ.

哦，恭喜你，唐纳德·特朗普。

Oh, congratulations, Donald Trump.

还有达沃斯。

And Davos.

还有

And

达沃斯。

Davos.

当然。

Of course.

你得承认达沃斯确实厉害。

You gotta hand it to Davos.

你得承认达沃斯确实厉害。

You gotta hand it to Davos.

当然，特朗普周四又在达沃斯取得了一项重大胜利，正式推出了他的和平委员会，各国可以出资十亿美元加入这个原本旨在监督加沙重建的组织，但现在却变成了特朗普自己的迷你联合国。

Of course, Trump also scored another big Davos win on Thursday with the formal launch of his board of peace, where countries can pony up $1,000,000,000 to join an entity that was originally conceived to oversee the reconstruction of Gaza, but has now turned into Trump's own model UN.

这简直就像他自己的小玩具联合国。

This is like his own little his own little toy UN.

以下是CNN的凯特琳·柯林斯再次登场，你之前听过她的问题，她对整个计划提出了一个相当明智的问题。

Here's CNN's Caitlin Collins again, who you heard earlier, asking a pretty smart question about the whole effort.

你提到担心俄罗斯试图来占领格陵兰，总统先生。

You talked about being concerned, mister president, about Russia trying to come and take over Greenland.

如果你担心普京会做这样的事，为什么还要邀请他加入你的和平委员会？

If you're worried that Putin would do something like that, why invite him to join your board of peace?

因为我们想要所有人。

Because we want everybody.

我们想要所有国家。

We want all nations.

我们想要那些人民拥有控制权、拥有权力的国家。

We want all nations where people have control, people have power.

是的。

Yeah.

我邀请了一些有争议的人，但这些人都是能把事情办成的人。

I have some controversial people on it, but these are people that get the job done.

这些人拥有巨大的影响力。

These are people that have tremendous influence.

如果我把所有婴儿都放进董事会，那也不会有什么实质作用。

I put all babies on the board, there wouldn't be very much.

所以他被邀请了。

So he was invited.

他已经接受了。

He's accepted.

很多人已经接受了。

Many people have accepted.

我认为我不知道有谁没有接受。

I think I don't know of anybody that hasn't accepted.

别他妈让婴儿上董事会。

No fucking babies on board.

我的意思是，董事会满是

I mean, the board full

婴儿是行不通的。

of babies would not work.

确实行不通。

It wouldn't.

关于这一点，他说得对。

He's right about this one.

我不愿这么说。

I hate to say it.

此外，从F章节第一段来看，普京总统表示，他可能会动用冻结的俄罗斯资产来支付其进入和平委员会的费用。

Also from the f verse one gaggle, president Putin said that he may use frozen Russian assets to pay for his entry to the board of peace.

你倾向于允许他这么做吗？

Were you inclined to let him do that?

我对这个不太清楚。

I don't know about that.

我稍微听说过一点。

I've heard that a little.

谁说的？

Who said that?

普京总统。

President Putin.

他说他要动用他的资金？

He said he was gonna use his money?

记者。

Reporter.

冻结的资产。

Frozen assets.

是的。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's fine.

他正在用他的钱。

He's using his money.

政策就是这样制定的。

That's how policy gets made.

什么？

What?

我的意思是，我们不想因为不想让俄罗斯在格陵兰建立立足点就去入侵格陵兰。

Like, we don't want we gotta invade Greenland because we don't want the Russians getting a foothold in Greenland.

但目前统治俄罗斯的战争罪犯，却能用我们冻结的资产支付给特朗普，以换取他和平委员会的席位，因为你不想让任何婴儿出现在那个委员会里。

But the war criminal that is currently running Russia can use the assets we all froze to pay Trump for a seat on his board of peace because you don't want any babies on that board.

真的

Did

你有没有查清楚，是否直接支付给了特朗普本人？

you ever get to the bottom of the paying Trump personally for this thing?

所以这笔钱会进入一个基金。

So it's going into a fund.

谁说得准呢？

Who who knows?

银行很可能在卡塔尔，和其他的一样。

The bank's probably in Qatar like the rest

我知道。

of the I know.

我得坦白说，我去了。

I went I have to be honest.

我深入研究了卡塔尔银行这件事。

I did a real deep dive on the Qatari bank thing.

是的。

Yeah.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

还行吗？

It's okay?

嗯，这听起来没表面那么疯狂。

Well, it's it is not as crazy as it sounds on its face.

部分原因是，由于我们新获得了委内瑞拉石油的控制权，必须规避一系列制裁，所以得把资金放进银行的灰色地带。

In part because we because of our new ownership of Venezuelan oil, have to invade a bunch of sanctions, so we have to put it in a banking gutter.

是的。

Yeah.

毕竟，我们一向喜欢遵纪守法。

Well, because, yeah, we we always love to follow the law.

法律条文，这就是特朗普政府的做法。

Letter of the law, that's the Trump administration.

不。

No.

所以他们都支付了十亿美元，这笔钱本应继续用于重建加沙，以及全球其他战乱国家和地区。

So they all pay a billion dollars, and the, the billion dollars is supposed to go towards still, helping to rebuild Gaza and then other projects around the world, other war torn countries, places.

因为我们在美国的经验表明，这个政府和这位总统希望确保资金用于对外援助和海外发展，帮助那些需要帮助的人。

Because we know from experience here in The United States that this administration and this president wants to make sure that money goes to foreign aid and foreign development overseas to people who need it.

这从一开始就一直是他的优先事项之一。

That's one of his been one of his priorities since the outset.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我假设这都是为了一个好目的。

So I assume that this is just it's all going to a good cause.

我的意思是，还有一个不涉及普京的替代方案。

I mean, there is alternative plan that doesn't involve Putin.

那是什么？

What's that?

这是国务院下属的一个机构，由国会拨款，用于向战乱地区提供援助，帮助人们重建家园、获得食物和清洁水源，预防疾病。

Agency within the state department funded by congress that could dispense aid to war torn parts of the country to help people rebuild, have food, have clean water, avoid diseases.

我们可以称之为美国国际开发署作为选项。

We could call it USAID as an option.

这种想法太愚蠢了。

Is this is this is dumb as thinking.

可以成立一个由世界各国组成的机构，来帮助解决国际冲突，你可以称它为联合国。

There could be a a body made up of countries around the world that could help solve international conflict, and you'd, like, call it the United Nations.

你知道的吧？

You know?

是的。

Yes.

简直疯狂。

Just as crazy.

我们必须先拆毁，然后再重建一个更差的版本。

We have to tear things down to then rebuild up a lesser version of them.

真的吗？

Which Really?

特朗普的名字。

Trump's name.

上面写着特朗普的名字。

Which Trump's name on them.

这基本上就是过去十年的写照。

That is basically the the last ten years.

所以，没人接受过。

So no one, no one hasn't accepted.

每个人都想加入这个委员会，除了我们真正的盟友。

Everyone everyone wants to be part of this board except for any of our actual allies.

加拿大总理马克·卡尼在达沃斯发表了一次重要讲话，大家都在谈论。

Canadian prime minister Mark Carney, he gave a big speech at Davos that, everyone's been talking about.

在这次演讲中，他说："我们正处在一个断裂之中，而非过渡阶段。"

And, in that speech, he said, quote, we are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition.

现在是中等强国联合起来的时候了。

And that now is the time for the middle powers to band together.

所以，卡尼发表了重磅演讲，几乎让我们的所有盟友都表示：整个由美国帮助建立并维系了数十年的二战后国际秩序，似乎被特朗普破坏了，修复起来将非常困难，我们必须另寻出路。

So big speech from Kearney, got all of our allies basically just, saying, you know, the the entire post World War two international order that America helped build and sustained for the last several decades, seems like Trump broke it, and it's gonna be hard to fix, and we're gonna have to look elsewhere.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

你为自己是美国人感到自豪吗？

You feeling proud to be an American?

这很好。

That's great.

偶尔，我会试着想象一下，如果民主党人赢了会是什么样子。

Every once in while, like picture I dare to picture what it would be like if a Democrat wins.

你想想他们必须做的一切。

You think about all the things that they have to do.

我会想到奥巴马上台的时候，因为如果那些年长的人还记得，当时全世界因为伊拉克战争而憎恨美国。

And I think about when Obama came in because if people, you know, if those old us remember would be, the world hated America because of the Iraq War.

我们简直成了笑柄。

Like, we were a laughingstock.

我总是跟人说，我妻子上大学时去爱尔兰，她告诉别人自己是加拿大人，因为当时人们对她所在的国家因伊拉克战争而非常愤怒。

I always tell sorry, my wife went to Ireland when she was in college, and she told everyone she was Canadian because people were so mad about the Iraq War while she was there.

然后奥巴马四处访问。

And then Obama went around.

你知道，每个人都说，奥巴马来了。

You know, everyone was like, Obama's here.

道歉之旅。

Apology tour.

我们确实进行了我们的道歉之旅。

We did we did our apology tour.

每个人都非常高兴。

Everyone was really happy.

我们回来了。

We went back.

特朗普在2016年当选。

Trump gets elected in 2016.

世界本可以说服自己，这不过是历史的一次偶然，一场黑天鹅事件，让这个只代表自己观点的疯子当上了美国总统。

The world could convince itself that this was a one time accident of history, black swan event that allowed this fucking lunatic who represented nothing other than the views of himself to be president The United States.

他走完了整个过程。

He goes through the whole thing.

他离开了。

He leaves.

乔·拜登回来了。

Joe Biden comes back.

制度恢复了。

Institutions are back.

我们又回到了原状，觉得那只是他一时的异常。

We're going back like, it's just his aberration.

我们将回到过去八十年来两党共识的轨道上，关于如何实施这一世界秩序，共和党和民主党会在资金分配上存在分歧——是投在这儿还是那儿，或是此处冲突还是彼处冲突。

We're gonna go back to what had been a bipartisan consensus for eighty years about how you know, Republicans and Democrats would disagree on how you implement that world order about money for this versus money for that or even conflict here versus conflict there.

但所有人都认同的是，这些机构对全球稳定和美国安全至关重要。

But the idea that these institutions were absolutely essential to global stability and American security, that was something we all agreed on.

这就是为什么在没有特朗普的情况下，至少在参议院，关于乌克兰资金支持仍存在广泛的两党共识。

It is why absent Trump, there is largely a bipartisan agreement, at least in the senate, about funding for Ukraine.

对吧？

Right?

就像，确实存在一种两党共识。

Like, that that like, there is there is a bipartisan census.

这种共识已经消失了。

That's gone.

现在特朗普再次当选，世界再也不会相信美国不会每隔四年就选出一个孤立主义的傻瓜。

Now that Trump has been reelected, the world is never going to feel confident that The United States is not always four years away from electing an isolationist doofus.

这种可能性将永远存在。

Like, that's always gonna be there.

因此，我们所理解的世界秩序——至少是特朗普重返政坛之前我们所理解的——我认为我们不可能再回到那种状态了，因为马克·卡尼说得对。

And so the world order as we understand it, or at least as we understood it before Trump came back in, we're I don't think we're going back to that any way, shape, or form because it's you know, Mark Carney's right.

所有那些依赖美国提供安全与稳定的国家，都必须开始寻找其他出路。

Everyone has to start these other countries who relied on The United States for security and stability are going to have to look elsewhere.

它们需要采取双重保障的策略，因为即使有总统、副总统哈里斯、加文·纽森、AOC、约书亚，无论谁上台，想恢复里根、布什、奥巴马、拜登时代的做法，也不能假设这种状态还能持续四到八年。

They need a belt suspenders approach because even if a president, Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom, AOC, Joshua, whoever comes in and goes back to the way, you know, Reagan, Bush, Obama, Biden did it, they can't assume that that's gonna be that way four to eight years later.

所以，世界正走向一个截然不同的方向，因为特朗普基本上把一切都毁了。

And so, like, the world is headed to a very, very different place because Trump has, like, just basically shat all over everything.

我们应该明确一点，这并不仅仅是因为我们对国际规则和制度怀有某种怀旧之情。

And we should be clear that it's not just like we are pining for international rules and institutions

它并没有变得更糟。

It wasn't more broken.

只是为了形式而已。

For the sake of it.

对吧？

Right?

他们当时并没有出问题，甚至在特朗普破坏和摧毁它们之前，这些机制运作得更好，让我们更安全。

Like, they but they the per when they weren't broken or when they worked better than they did even before Trump broke them and destroyed them, they kept us safer.

它们让世界更安全，让美国人更安全，也让美国人更繁荣。

They kept the world safer, and they kept Americans safer, and they kept Americans more prosperous.

在一个国家纷纷转向中国寻求经济发展和安全保障的世界里，生活将会变得更加困难。

And it's gonna be more difficult to live in a world where countries are turning to places like China for economic development, for security.

我认为卡尼是在转述他演讲中的一句话，他说，在一个各国各自结盟、努力加强自身安全、形成更多堡垒的世界里，这个世界会变得更加脆弱、危险，也更容易爆发暴力。

I think Carney's paraphrasing a line from his speech, but he said something like in a world where there's just more fortresses because different countries are making different alliances and trying to, like, build up their own security, then, like, that's a world that is more brittle, more dangerous, more prone to violence.

而这正是他正把我们引向的方向。

And that's that's where he's leading us.

就像你所说的，我相信并希望民主党能赢，下一任总统真的能在修复这些关系上取得巨大进展。

And like you said, like, I I I believe and hope that Democrat wins, and the next president really does make great strides in repairing some of these relationships.

但别以为我们还能回到过去，至少在未来一代人的时间里都不可能了。

But don't think we're going back for at least a generation at this point.

这都要归功于唐纳德·特朗普、国会里的共和党人，以及所有纵容并支持他这么做的人。

Thanks to Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress and everyone who has, allowed him to do this and supported him doing this.

这并不是说北约不需要改革，联合国也不需要大规模改革。

This is not to say that NATO does not need reform, that the United Nations is does not need massive reform.

但基本理念是，如果我们与盟友合作、拥有尽可能多的盟友，遵守国际协议和安全协议，大家共同努力就能带来稳定。

But it's the basic idea that The United States is more secure if we work together with our allies, have as many allies as possible, if there is international agreements that are adhered to, that there are security agreements that are adhered to, that we all are that, like, working together leads to stability.

而特朗普正把我们拉回二战前‘强权即公理’的思维模式。

And that what Trump is pushing us back towards is a pre World War two mentality of might makes right.

这或许在当下对美国来说看似有利，但长远来看未必如此。

And that may seem great for The United States in this exact moment right now, but it may not be down the line.

因此，你必须有长远的眼光，只是特朗普并没有用别的东西来替代它。

And so you have to sort of think ahead, and you just like, it's all so it's not being Trump is not replacing it with something else.

对吧？

Right?

如果你进来后说，以前的世界运作方式已经行不通了，这里有一种新的方式。

If you were to come in and say, the way the world has worked before is not working, here's a different way.

他只是像拆掉一切，榨取好处，然后一走了之。

It is just like tear it down, you know, reap the benefits, and move on.

而且你知道，美国正是在这一秩序下成为超级大国的。

And, you know, America got to be a superpower under that order.

对吧？

Right?

我们可不是众多国家中的普通一员。

It's not just like we were one of a whole bunch of countries.

世界上其他许多国家都仰望我们，钦佩我们的价值观，即使我们并不总是能践行这些价值观，也钦佩我们作为国家的繁荣——我们是世界上最富裕的国家，这正是基于此。

The rest of the world, much of the rest of the world looked to us and they admired, our values even if we haven't always lived up to them and like our prosperity as a country, we're the richest country in the world based on that.

我们的军事力量也是世界上最强的，这同样基于此。

And we're the most powerful military in the world based on that.

对吧？

Right?

我们并不是靠遵循唐纳德·特朗普那种‘强权即公理’的规则才达到今天的地位的。

We didn't we didn't get to that just by playing by the Donald Trump might makes right rules.

但好消息是，为了和平，我们迎来了一支新团队。

So but the good news is, and the board of peace, we got a new crew.

我们有土耳其。

We got Turkey.

我们有斯坦国家。

We got the Stans.

你的哈萨克斯坦，所有这些斯坦国家。

Your Kazakhstan, your all the Stans.

我们有中东的海湾国家。

We got The Gulf States in The Middle East.

你的沙特阿拉伯、阿联酋、卡塔尔、白俄罗斯、匈牙利。

Get your Saudi Arabia, your UAE, Qatar, Belarus, Hungary.

内塔尼亚胡已经同意加入和平委员会。

Netanyahu, he's agreed to join the peace board.

好消息。

Good news.

不太好的消息是，他因涉嫌战争罪被国际刑事法院通缉，无法出席签字仪式。

Tougher news, couldn't attend the signing ceremony as he is wanted by the ICC for alleged war crimes.

所以这很棘手。

So that's tough.

普京也是同样的情况。

Same thing with Putin.

普京是另一个国际刑事法院通缉的战争罪犯，但你知道，他还在忙着入侵乌克兰。

Putin's another ICC war criminal fugitive, but, you know, he's also busy, you know, invading Ukraine.

而且据称他已同意动用一些冻结资产来支付这笔费用，不过我们尚未确认，所以别太兴奋，但据说他确实打算这么做。

And he signed up allegedly, though we we haven't confirmed that so no one get too excited, but apparently, he is gonna use some frozen assets to pay for that fee.

你知道吗？

So and you know what?

贾里德·库什纳今天出来展示了一组幻灯片，把加沙描绘得像个该死的购物中心，我想。

Jared Jared Kushner was out there today with a a slideshow, making making Gaza look like a fucking shopping mall, I guess.

我不确定。

I don't know.

情况相当黯淡，丹。

It was, pretty bleak, Dan.

相当黯淡。

Pretty bleak.

这几天对世界来说并不顺利。

It was not a great couple of days for the world.

我得这么说。

I will say that.

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Don't wait to claim your name.

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就是 squarespace.com/crooked。

That's squarespace.com/crooked.

《Pod Save America》由 Zbiotics 饮品赞助播出。

Pod Save America is brought to you by Zbiotics pre alcohol.

今年我真正坚持下来的一个小改变是什么？

What's the one small shift I've actually maintained this year?

重新夺回我的早晨。

Reclaiming my mornings.

我意识到，一夜狂欢不该让我浪费一整天的效率，所以我现在的做法是规划一场平衡的外出，以确保第二天早上依然状态良好。

I realized the night of fun shouldn't cost me an entire day of productivity, so my shift is planning a balanced night out to ensure a high quality morning after.

我依赖Zbiotics前饮酒饮品来支持这一目标，让我的社交生活和健康目标保持一致。

I rely on Zbiotics pre alcohol to support that goal and keep my social life and my wellness goals aligned.

Zbiotics前饮酒益生菌饮料是世界上第一款基因工程益生菌产品。

Zbiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

它由博士科学家研发，旨在缓解饮酒后的不适早晨。

It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

他们可能会说，气候变化？

They're like, climate change?

不。

No.

是这个。

That.

我有计划了。

I got a I got a plan.

它是这样运作的。

Here's how it works.

当你饮酒时，酒精会被肠道转化为一种有毒的副产物。

When you drink alcohol, it gets converted into a toxic byproduct by the gut.

导致酒后不适的，是这种副产物的积累，而不是脱水。

It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking.

Pre Alcohol 会产生一种酶来分解这种副产物。

Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down.

请记住，一定要把 Pre Alcohol 作为当晚的第一杯饮品。

Just Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night.

适量饮酒，明天你会感觉状态最好。

Drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow.

我们都用过。

We've all used it.

它太棒了。

It's fantastic.

我非常喜欢Zbiotics。

I love Zbiotics.

我喝酒之前一定会用它。

I will not have a drink without it.

它是我所遇到过的最有影响力的东西，能让喝酒第二天不再那么难受。

It is like the most impactful thing I've ever come across to make, you know, drinking not punish you the next day.

想试试吗？

Ready to try it?

现在就去 zbiotics.com/crooked。

Go to zbiotics.com/crooked now.

结账时使用代码 crooked，首单可享15%折扣，而且我们提供100%退款保证，完全无风险。

You'll get 15% off your first order when you use code crooked at checkout, plus it's backed by a 100% money back guarantee, so there's no risk.

还提供订阅服务，以确保效果最稳定。

Subscriptions are also available for maximum consistency.

记得前往 zbiotics.com/crooked，并在结账时使用代码 crooked 享受15%优惠。

Remember to head to zbiotics.com/crooked and use code crooked at checkout for 15% off.

好吧。

Alright.

国内的局势对美国来说也没好多少。

The war at home, isn't going much better for America.

明尼苏达州仍遭到数千名武装联邦特工的围困，他们恐吓着公民和非公民。

Minnesota is still under siege by thousands of armed federal agents who are terrorizing citizens and non citizens alike.

明尼苏达州的警察局长和执法官员于周三召开新闻发布会，称移民与海关执法局（ICE）官员正在对美国公民进行种族歧视，包括他们自己的在职警察。

Police chiefs and law enforcement officials, in Minnesota held a press conference Wednesday to say that ICE officers are racially profiling US citizens, including their own off duty police officers in Minnesota.

其中一名警察，ICE特工将她的车围住，用枪指着她，要求查看她的证件，而当她开始拍摄他们时，却把她的手机打掉了。

One of whom, ICE officers, they boxed in her car, they held her up at gunpoint, demanded to see her papers, and then when she began to film them, they knocked the phone out of her hand.

然后她告诉他们自己是一名警察。

Then she let them know that she is a police officer.

那ICE特工做了什么？

And what did the ICE agents do?

你以为他们会道歉吗？

Do think they apologized?

你觉得他们会说，哦，对不起吗？

Do you think they said, oh, sorry.

他们根本没有。

We did no.

他们逃跑了，因为他们是懦夫，也不表明自己的身份。

They ran away because they are cowards and they don't identify themselves.

所以事情就是这样。

So that's what happened.

那是一群明尼苏达州的警察局长和执法官员召开的新闻发布会。

That was a a group of police chiefs, law enforcement officials that held that press conference in Minnesota.

太疯狂了。

Wild.

还有一篇美联社的报道，讲述了一名举报人向参议院提交的一份内部ICE备忘录，称联邦移民官员现在有权在没有法官授权令的情况下进入我们的家中，这份备忘录据称已被用于培训该机构的新员工。

There was also an AP story about an internal ICE memo that a whistleblower sent to the senate that claims federal immigration officers now have the power to enter our homes without a judge's warrant, a memo that has reportedly been used to train the agency's newer agents.

不再需要司法授权令，他们所说的只是行政授权令——由ICE官员签署以执行移民执法的授权令，现在他们可以用这些授权令强行闯入他们怀疑有无证移民的住宅。

No more judicial warrants needed, only what they're saying is administrative warrants, which are warrants signed by ICE agents to enforce immigration enforcement, and now they can use those to barge into a home where they suspect that an undocumented immigrant may be.

还有一则新闻，我们周四听到关于五岁的利亚姆·科内霍·拉莫斯的故事，ICE在逮捕他父亲时拘留了他，然后将他们两人都送往德克萨斯州的拘留设施，尽管这个五岁男孩家庭的另一名成员恳求ICE让男孩留在明尼苏达州——这当然是他们应该做的。

There's also the story, we heard on Thursday of five year old Liam Konejo Ramos who ICE detained while arresting his father and then shipped them both to a detention facility in Texas despite another member of the five year old boy's household pleading, begging with ICE to let the boys stay in Minnesota, which of course they are supposed to do.

不出所料，白宫派出了最具同理心的高级官员JD·万斯前往明尼阿波利斯，他与ICE特工举行了一场活动，在会上他斥责我们所有人不相信政府的谎言。

Naturally, the White House dispatched its most empathetic senior official to Minneapolis, JD Vance, who held an event with ICE agents where he scolded all of us for not believing the government's lies.

我们来听一下。

Let's listen.

当地警察局长们说那是他们自己的下班警员。

The local police chiefs have said their own off duty officers.

所以警察因为是少数族裔就被针对，还被要求出示证件。

So police officers are being targeted because they are a person of color and asked to show their papers.

这是政府担心的问题吗？

Is that a concern of the administration?

听着。

Look.

当然，这是个值得担忧的问题吗？

Certainly, is it a concern?

当然。

Absolutely.

我们首先要弄清楚这件事是否真的发生过。

The first thing we have to figure out is whether it happened or not.

如果确实发生了，就要判断这是有合理的解释，还是糟糕的解释。

And then if it happened, whether there is a good explanation or a bad explanation.

当然，如果有人违法了，有人进行了种族定性，有人侵犯了我们同胞的权利，这绝对是我们会严肃对待的问题。

And of course, if somebody violated the law, somebody racially profiled, if somebody violated the rights of one of our fellow citizens, that is something we will take very seriously.

没有人主张在没有搜查令的情况下执行移民执法。

Nobody is talking about doing immigration enforcement without a warrant.

我们讨论的是我们体系中不同类型的搜查令，但绝不会在没有某种搜查令的情况下进入他人家中，除非有人向执法人员开火，或者执法人员必须采取行动保护自身安全。

We're talking about different types of warrants that exist in our system, but we're never gonna enter somebody's house house without some kind of a warrant unless, of course, somebody's firing on an officer or they have to do something in order to protect themselves.

不。

No.

我没有这么说，我认为特朗普政府的任何其他官员也没有说过，参与不当行为的执法人员会享有豁免权。

I I I didn't say, and I don't think any other official within the Trump administration said that officers who engaged in wrongdoing would enjoy immunity.

这太荒谬了。

That's absurd.

我其实有一个五岁的儿子。

And I'm a father of a five year old, actually, a five year old little boy.

我忍不住想，天哪。

And I think to myself, oh my god.

这太糟糕了。

This is terrible.

我们是怎么逮捕一个五岁孩子的？

How did we arrest a five year old?

再做一些后续调查吧。

Well, do a little bit more follow-up research.

所以这个故事是，移民与海关执法局拘留了一个五岁孩子。

So the story is that ICE detained a five year old.

那他们还能怎么办？

Well, what are they supposed to do?

难道他们应该让一个五岁的孩子冻死吗？

Are they supposed to let a five year old child freeze to death?

难道他们不应该在美国逮捕一名非法移民吗？

Are they not supposed to arrest an illegal alien in The United States Of America?

如果论点是，因为有人有孩子，就不能逮捕违反我们法律的人，那么每个父母都将完全免于任何执法行动。

If the argument is that you can't arrest people who have violated our laws because they have children, then every single parent is gonna be completely given immunity from ever being the subject of law enforcement.

这毫无道理。

That doesn't make any sense.

没人觉得这有道理。

No one thinks that makes any sense.

我的意思是，我们为什么不称赞ICE特工救了那个五岁男孩，让他免受严寒，并把他送到得克萨斯州——那里暖和多了，他可以在拘留中心待着，而不是回到明尼苏达的学校或家里？

I mean, why aren't we, congratulating the ICE agents from saving that five year old boy from the freezing cold and shipping him to Texas where it's much warmer and he can hang out in detention facility as opposed to his school or his home in Minnesota.

拜托了。

Come on.

你们这些人疯了吗？

Are you people crazy?

有人显然告诉了J。

Was so someone so someone clearly told J.

D。

D.

万斯在白宫新闻简报室里对勒妮·古德开枪后的表现中，表现得太过激进，一出来就称她为国内恐怖分子，对所有人大喊大叫，像个疯子一样。

Vance after the the performance he put on following the shooting of Renee Goode in the White House Press Briefing Room that he was a little too hot coming out there and immediately calling her a domestic terrorist and yelling at everyone and acting like a maniac.

所以他们可能告诉他：你得冷静点，收敛点，但你依然可以，你知道的，把谎话说到底。

And so they probably told him, gotta you gotta cool it down, take it down, but you can still, you know, lie your ass off.

没人会去核实你讲的任何故事，所以我想他就是这么做的。

No one's gonna check any of your stories, so I guess that's what he did.

你对这场新闻发布会怎么看？

What did you make of the press conference?

我想在我看JD万斯讲话时给自己戴上一个血压计，也许是因为我多年来对特朗普已经麻木了，但我发现看JD万斯更让人气愤。

I would like to put a blood pressure monitor on myself while I watch JD Vance speak because maybe it's because I'm just so numb to Trump after all of these years, but I find JD Vance to be more infuriating to watch.

那种自满的态度，他说话时那种高中辩论冠军般的得意劲儿，还有那种缺乏魅力的感觉。

Just the smugness, the high school debate champ energy he gets off when he does it, the, like, the the lack of charisma.

这一切都让人无比愤怒。

The whole thing is just so infuriating.

我想，这里发生的事情其实并不一定是因为JD万斯本人感到内疚，毕竟他似乎在很多方面都缺乏良知，根本不会觉得有什么不对。

And, like, I guess what happened here is I don't think this was necessarily about JD Vance, like, feeling, you know, not that he would ever feel bad about anything because he seems to be largely soulless in a lot of ways.

但只是因为他在简报会上的表现受到了政治压力。

But, just feeling like political pressure for his performance in the briefing room.

记得你和我讨论过这件事，你们在周二的播客里也聊过。

Think this is remember if you and I talked about it, you guys talked about it on a Tuesday podcast.

但当时有一篇Axios的报道提到，白宫政治团队重新审查了ICE的数据，开始意识到这种混乱正在损害他们的利益。

But there was that Axios story about how the White House political team had reviewed the ICE numbers, so they were starting to feel that the chaos was not was hurting them.

他们可能需要采取不同的策略。

They might have to take a different approach.

你能感觉到，特朗普在前往达沃斯之前召开他的一周年新闻发布会时，试图在言辞上稍微软化一些。

And you could sort of sense when Trump did his 100 you know, his one year press conference before heading to Davos that he he tried to, like, sand the edges down on the rhetoric some.

他试图——我说‘试图’时得加上无数个引号，因为这根本谈不上丝毫对雷妮·古德遭遇的共情，对那些事情的任何体谅。

He tried to he I mean, I say try with all the air quotes humanly possible around, like, a modicum of empathy for what's happened there, for what happened to Renee Goode, all of those things.

我认为JD·万斯当时在场是为了降温，但他根本做不到。

I think JD Vance was there to try to lower the temperature, but he just can't.

他的存在本身就让人恼火，而且他对所有事情都极度不诚实。

Like, he's he's infuriating in his presence, and he's so just dishonest about everything.

他的套路就是把一些完全不合理、荒谬至极的事情，用洗脑的方式包装成对那些缺乏基本判断力的人来说似乎合情合理的东西。

He could like, his, like, whole thing is to take something totally unreasonable, totally ridiculous, and then just, like, gaslight it into a place of reasonableness for anyone who does not have the two brain cells required to understand that what he's saying is bullshit.

比如，他制造出一个虚假的两难选择：要么拘留一个五岁的孩子，把他送到另一个州关进拘留中心，要么放他自由等死。

Like like, just creating the false choice between detaining a five year old and shipping him to another state to keep him in a detention center or let him free to death.

但那根本不是摆在桌面上的两个选项。

Those were not the two options on the table.

这根本不是说他们在苔原上逮捕了那个父亲。

This was not like they did not arrest the father in the tundra.

对吧？

Right?

所以这

So it's

嗯，这其实也是

like Well, this is also it's

他根本就没有去了解这个故事。

just like he he did not look into the story.

他所做的事是，任何一家报道过这个故事的媒体——我在《华盛顿邮报》上读到的，你 anywhere 都能找到——都会提到这家人、学校里的工作人员，以及所有目击者，他们都表示男孩家中有人曾恳求移民局允许他们留下男孩。

What he did because any of the any of the media outlets that wrote up the story, and I read it in the Washington Post, you can read it anywhere else, will have the family in there and the member and the people at the school that run the school and everyone all the witnesses saying that the someone in the boy's household was pleading with ICE to let them keep the boy.

但移民局的做法却是利用这个男孩当诱饵，敲门试图引出其他家庭成员以便拘捕。

And instead what Ice did is they used the boy as bait to knock on the door and try to get other family members to come out to detain.

当然，他们除了父亲之外，根本找不到其他人可以拘捕。

And of course, they couldn't find any others to detain except for the father.

既然男孩家中还有其他成员可以照顾他，移民局就没有理由把男孩和父亲关在一起。

And so there was no reason for Ice to keep the boy with the father when there were other members of the household that could stay with the boy.

现在男孩下落不明，他只是被关在圣安东尼奥的一处拘留中心。

And now the boy is no one knows where the boy like the boy's just in a detention facility in San Antonio.

我们稍后会再谈这个，但这些拘留中心的条件，尤其是德克萨斯州的，简直惨不忍睹。

And we'll talk about this in a second, but the conditions in these detention centers, particularly the ones in Texas, are fucking horrific.

你别跟我说他们能照顾好一个五岁的孩子，想象一下他有多害怕。

And you can't tell me that they're gonna be able to take care of a five year imagine how scared he is?

想象一下这个五岁孩子有多害怕。

Imagine how scared this five year old is.

你真的以为他和他爸爸在一起吗？

And like, do you really think he's with his dad?

当然不是。

Of course not.

谁被逮捕了，而且即将被驱逐？

Who's been arrested and is gonna be deported?

这太可怕了，首先是

Like, this terrifying, first

执行逮捕的人缺乏最基本的人性。

of It's just the lack of humanity from the people conducting the arrest.

突然之间，你发现自己置身于一个可以逮捕某人的世界。

Like, all of sudden, you find yourself, like you can see a world where you arrest someone.

我确信这种情况在移民执法之外的普通执法中也会发生。

I'm sure this happens, like, outside of immigration for regular law enforcement.

你逮捕了某人，结果留下了一个未成年人，那你该怎么办？

You arrest someone, and you now have a minor child, and it's like, what do you do with them?

在把孩子送到拘留设施之前，其实有很多其他选择。

And there are plenty of options before you get to send them to a detention facility.

对吧？

Right?

所以，根本没人愿意花心思去寻找解决方案，或者让他和……

And so like this no one cared enough to try to find a solution or to let him stay with the

我会说，JD的立场，是的。

I'll say like JD's position yeah.

我们这些反对这种做法的人所持的立场是：绝对不能在孩子面前逮捕任何有孩子的父母，尤其是当着孩子的面。

The the position that that everyone who doesn't like this, the position we're all taking is you must not arrest anyone with a child, particularly, especially in front of the child.

就是这样。

That's it.

孩子现在成了护身符。

The child is now a shield.

每个人都可以去犯罪。

Everyone can go commit crimes.

自由派想要的是，任何人在孩子面前都不能被逮捕。

And what the libs want is no one can be arrested with their child in their presence.

这就是人们在说的。

That's what people are saying.

把一切推向不合逻辑的极端。

Everything to its illogical conclusion.

这就是他的修辞风格。

Like that is his rhetorical style.

那么，这简直就是赤裸裸的谎言。

Well, then there's just like straight up lying.

就在那之前，他说：哦，我从未说过任何人声称过移民局官员有豁免权。

So right before that, he said, oh, I never said whoever said that there was any there was immunity for, officials, for ICE agents.

这是J。

So here's J.

D。

D.

在雷妮·古德遇害后，万斯在白宫简报室的原话。

Vance verbatim in the White House Briefing Room after Renee Good's murder.

引述：这里的先例非常简单。

Quote, the precedent here is very simple.

你有一位联邦执法人员正在执行联邦执法行动。

You have a federal law enforcement official engaging in federal law enforcement action.

这属于联邦事务。

That's a federal issue.

这个人受到绝对豁免权的保护。

That guy is protected by absolute immunity.

他当时正在履行职责。

He was doing his job.

前所未有的是，竟然有地方官员试图起诉享有绝对豁免权的联邦官员。

The unprecedented thing is the idea that a local official can actually prosecute a federal official with absolute immunity.

我从未见过这样的事情。

I've never seen anything like that.

这会被法官驳回。

It would get tossed out by a judge.

所以事情就是这样。

So that's that.

接下来我们看看关于执法官员的故事——那位下班的警察被移民与海关执法局特工骚扰和殴打的事件。

Then let's see the story about the law enforcement official, the off duty police officer who was harassed and assaulted by ICE agents.

他当时说：‘嘿，这显然值得关注。’

He was like, yo, obviously that would be a concern.

但我们没有播放那段视频。

And we didn't play that part of the clip.

但在那之后，他立刻说，我们必须核实这个故事是否属实，因为过去几周那些广为传播的事件大多都不真实——这实际上就是在说，明尼苏达州所有的警察局长和提供新闻发布会的地方执法官员都是骗子。

But right after that, he said, we have to figure out if the story's right because most of these stories over the last couple weeks, these viral stories haven't been right, which is basically saying that all of the police chiefs in Minnesota and the local law enforcement officials who gave the press conference are fucking liars.

直接称执法人员为骗子。

Just calling the law enforcement officers liars.

我们不会听到ICE特工那边的说法，因为那些ICE特工跑了，像懦夫一样，很可能还遮着脸。

And we're not gonna get the ICE agent side of that story because those ICE agents, we don't know who they are because they ran away like cowards, probably with their faces masked.

还有关于整个新闻发布会的更广泛观点，因为整个事情的核心是：我今天在这里，是因为我认为如果我们能获得更多州和地方官员的合作，就可以降低CAS。

And then there's this broader point about the entire press conference because the whole thing that it is, I am here today because I think we can lower the CAS if we get more cooperation from state and local officials.

对。

Right.

问题就在于他们不配合。

That's the problem is they are not cooperating.

如果他们配合，CAS就会减少。

If they cooperate, then there would be less CAS.

我们就能减少误入错误家庭等情况。

We'd go into fewer incorrect homes, etcetera.

所以记者问：你联系过蒂姆·沃尔斯吗？

So the reporter's like, have you called Tim Walls?

我知道他是该州的州长。

I know he's the governor of the state.

看起来，如果你想获得州官员更多的合作，你肯定想跟他谈谈。

Like, seems like somebody you'd want to speak to if you wanted additional cooperation from state officials.

不，我没给他打过电话。

Like, no, haven't called him.

他说，可以给我打电话。

He said, can call me.

他可以给我打电话。

He can call me.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，也许他们不愿与你合作的一个原因是，你已派遣司法部对他们进行虚假罪名的调查。

Oh, and maybe maybe one reason why they may be hesitant to cooperate with you is because you've dispatched your Department of Justice to investigate them for fake crimes.

我认为这一切中最大的新闻是这份ICE备忘录。

I do think the the the biggest piece of news in all this is this ICE memo Yeah.

美联社报道了这件事，哦，你知道的，一位内部举报人把文件发给了参议院，然后显然也泄露给了美联社。

That the AP reported on that, oh, you know, an internal whistleblower sent it to the senate and then obviously leaked it to the Associated Press as well.

首先，JD·万斯对此的回答是：‘真是个该死的耶鲁法学院。’

And first of all, JD Vance's answer there was, what a fucking Yale Law School.

真是个丢人的事儿。

What a fucking embarrassment.

这对耶鲁法学院来说可不怎么样。

And that's not great for Yale Law School.

没错。

No.

我的天啊。

I mean, Jesus Christ.

我的意思是，他到底在说什么？

He's got like, what was he talking about?

他完全搞错了。

He got the whole thing wrong.

所以，我不知道他是不是弄错了。

So Well, he I don't know if he got it wrong.

他故意使用了一些措辞，让事情听起来更合理，从而回避了真正关键的问题——谁在签署这些所谓的搜查令？

He intentionally used words that made it sound more reasonable to avoid getting at the actual crux of the issue, which is who is signing these quote unquote warrants?

谁在签署搜查令？

Who's signing the warrants?

而且，我们根本不会在没有搜查令的情况下闯入民宅。

But also like we would never we would never would never go into a home without a warrant.

但事实上，你会的。

It's like, well, yeah, you would.

比如那位被你们从家里拖出来的老人，他只穿着内衣，是美国公民，你们误以为他是罪犯，结果发现他自2024年起就一直在监狱里——国土安全部本该知道这是误认，可你们还是撞开了他的门。

In fact, like the the elderly man who you dragged out of his home in his underwear, who's a US citizen, who you thought was some criminal that it turns out has been in jail since 2024, which DHS would have known a case of mistaken identity, they barged his door down.

所以他们确实这么做了，我不知道他们有没有搜查令。

So they did, so they I don't know if they had a warrant.

那不是司法签发的搜查令。

It wasn't a judicial warrant.

这不是由法官签署的。

It wasn't signed by a judge.

这些行政令可以由移民局官员签署。

These administrative warrants can be signed by ICE officers.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是问题的核心。

I mean, that that is the crux here.

当他说‘令状’时，他并不是指我们通常理解的那种令状——即检察官和警察向法官提交合理依据，法官签署令状批准他们进入、逮捕或搜查，这正是宪法所规定的，对吧？

When he says, when JD Vance says warrant, he's not talking about warrant in the way in which we commonly think of it, which is a prosecutor and the police go to a judge, they present probable cause, the judge then signs a warrant saying, yes, you can go in and find this person, arrest this person, search the premises, whatever, which is how it is laid out in the constitution, right?

这些是你的第四修正案权利。

These are your Fourth Amendment rights.

这些实际上是移民官员签署的逮捕令，由其他移民部门官员执行。

These are warrants, essentially arrest warrants, signed by immigration officers to to be enforced by other immigration department officers.

因此，法院通常认为这些令状无效，是因为法院本应作为对行政分支的制衡。

And so the reason why the courts have generally said that these warrants cannot work is that the courts are supposed be a check on the executive branch.

行政部门不能自行授予自己执行行政职能的权力，这一点在这份备忘录中非常有趣，因为备忘录称他们可以在除加州中部一个地区之外的所有地方这样做，因为在加州中部的基德诉案中，法院已经作出过相关裁决。

The executive branch cannot give itself authority to execute executive branch functions, which is really interesting in this memo because they say the memo says they can do this everywhere other than one district in Central California because there's already been a court decision in Central California in a case called Kidd v.

马约卡斯案，该判决指出在那里不能这样做。

Mayorkas, which said you cannot do that there.

此外，即使由移民局官员签署的这些行政令，也不允许他们进入民众家中。

Also, even these administrative warrants that ICE officers sign do not allow them to go into people's homes.

对。

Right.

它只是简单地声明：我们认定此人非法居留在本国。

It's just simply saying, we are asserting this person is in this country illegally.

你们可以去逮捕他。

You can go pick them up.

而他们正试图更进一步，声称因为这份文件是我们签署的，所以它等同于法官签发的搜查令，可以进入他人家中——但事实并非如此。

And they are then trying to take that one step further to say that you can because we signed that, then that is the equivalent of a judicial warrant to go into someone's home, which it is not.

从未有任何法院这样认定过，而且可以预见，未来也不会有任何法院这样认定。

No court has ever said that, and presumably no court ever would.

这就是为什么这对每个美国人都很危险。

And here's why this is dangerous for every single American.

所以移民局来到你家，敲门。

So ICE comes to your home, knock on the door.

你心想，移民局在外面。

You're like, ICE is outside.

我是美国公民。

I'm a US citizen.

我才不他妈去开门呢。

I'm not fucking answering that door.

现在移民局突袭你家，撞开大门，冲进你家，搜查，把你带走。

Now ICE raids your home, busts the door down, comes in your home, searches, takes you away.

你可能会问，他们怎么能这么做？

And you're like, well, how can they do that?

因为他们自己签了一份行政令，声称他们认为一个被通缉的非法移民恰好在你家。

Well, they have an administrative warrant that they signed themselves that says they thought that, an undocumented immigrant who was wanted for a crime happened to be in your home.

你有什么证据证明这一点？

What's your proof of that?

我们不在乎。

We don't care.

我们只是自己签了这个行政令。

We just, we signed our administrative warrant ourself.

是的。

Yeah.

关键是，这可能会发生在你家。

It's like the point is it can be your home.

政府就像在对那些‘别侵犯我’的人说，政府正给自己权力，可以随时以任何理由进入任何人的家。

Is it the government can like all the don't tread on me people is the government is just giving itself the power to go in anyone's home whenever it wants for any reason.

而且再次强调，你可能会想，嗯，他们现在这么做是因为他们在寻找无证移民。

And again, you might think like, well, that's I mean, they're doing that now because they're trying to find undocumented immigrants.

没错。

Well, yeah.

但有什么能阻止他们对任何他们想对付的美国人这样做呢？

But what is going to stop them from doing this to any American that they want to?

然后

And then

如果他们这么做了，你该怎么办？

if they do that, what do you do about it?

你能追究移民与海关执法局官员的责任吗？

Can you hold the ICE officer accountable?

不行。

Well, no.

因为显然他们也有豁免权。

Because apparently they have immunity as well.

是的。

Yeah.

我们觉得司法部会追究他们的责任吗？

Do we think the Department of Justice is going to hold them accountable?

司法部在任何调查之前就决定将雷妮·古德定性为国内恐怖分子。

The Department of Justice that, decided ahead of any investigation that Renee Good is a domestic terrorist.

我的意思是，你知道，我不太想吓唬人，但我们现在简直处在无法无天的境地。

I mean, we're just, you know, I don't like to alarm people, but we're in fucking lawless territory here.

这不仅仅发生在我们听说的明尼苏达州这些案例中，而是可能蔓延到全国，除非该死的最高法院赶紧行动，真正对此作出裁决——但谁知道我们要等多久呢。

That's Just it's only happening in these cases that we're hearing about in Minnesota doesn't mean it can't expand to the rest of the country until the fucking supreme court gets off his ass and and actually rules on this, which who knows how long we'll wait for that.

还有，我们刚才谈到德克萨斯州这些拘留中心的状况，那里关着一个五岁的孩子。

Also, was talking about these conditions in these detention centers, in Texas, where the five year old is being held.

令人发指。

Horrifying.

我不知道你有没有看到关于那位在埃尔帕索设施去世的古巴移民的报道，据我所知，那里的状况甚至更糟。

I don't know if you saw the story about, the Cuban migrant who died in the El Paso facility, which I have seen from reports is even worse.

国土安全部撒谎，声称他是自杀身亡。

DHS, liars, had said that he died by suicide.

随后，埃尔帕索的法医进行了尸检，确认这是一起谋杀案，这与他的家人从目击者那里听到的说法一致——目击者称看到狱警勒死了他。

Then the El Paso medical examiner does an autopsy and confirms that it was a homicide, which lines up with what his family heard from witnesses who said that they saw the guards strangle him to death.

在这些目击者说出这些情况后，国土安全部试图将他们驱逐出境。

And then DHS, after those witnesses said that, DHS tried to deport them.

《华盛顿邮报》还报道，今年头两周，除了这名古巴移民外，另有五人在移民拘留期间死亡，其中包括一名在明尼苏达突袭中被捕、关押在同一设施的36岁男子。

The Washington Post also reported that five other people aside from this, Cuban immigrant, have already died in immigration detention the first two weeks of the year, including a 36 year old man at the same facility who was swept up in the Minnesota raids.

我们有一段时间没谈拘留中心了，因为我觉得我们理所当然地更关注ICE在社区里横冲直撞的情况。

We haven't talked about the detention facilities in a while, because I think we've rightly been so focused on, like, ICE rampaging through the communities.

每个人都应该去看看亚历克斯·瓦格纳的播客《逃亡国度》，她这周深入调查了拘留中心。

Everyone should check out, Runaway Country, Alex Wagner's podcast, because she digs into the detention centers this week.

这是一集非常棒的节目。

It's a really great episode.

但它们确实存在。

But they are.

尤其是得州的那些拘留中心。

It's really especially the ones in Texas.

简直就是他妈的劣质食物、疾病肆虐、医疗资源极度匮乏，人们几乎得不到任何医疗照顾。

Just fucking dislike rotten food, rampant disease, very little medical care, very little access to medical care for people.

他们就这样把人丢在那里，连打电话都不让。

And they're just leaving people there for you can't get phone calls.

你无法联系，也不知道会被送到哪里。

You can't, you don't know where you're going.

他们就这样把人丢在那里等死。

They're just they're just leaving people there to rot.

这些政策背后的主导者根本上认为，无证移民不是人，因此他们的权利不重要，他们的需求不重要，他们的生命对他们来说也不重要。

And at the fundamental belief from the people responsible for these these policies is that undocumented immigrants are less than human, which is why their rights don't matter, their deedencies don't matter, and their lives don't matter to them.

无证移民，现在就连合法居留的人也包括在内。

Undocumented, and now people who are here legally.

坦白说，任何看起来不像他们的人。

And frankly, anyone who doesn't look like them.

没错。

Right.

或者任何看起来不像他们的人，或者是的。

Or anyone who doesn't look like them or yeah.

任何人只要……雷妮·古德就是这么遭遇的。

Anyone who That's that's what happened to Renee Good.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

因为你长得不像我们。

It is you don't look like us.

你思考的方式不像我们。

You don't think like us.

你竟敢质疑我们。

You dare to question us.

你竟敢抗议，竟敢批评我们，我们就会整你，想怎样就怎样。

You dare to try to protest, you dare to try to criticize us, we will fuck with you and we can do whatever we want.

这正是他们在做的事。

That's that is what they're doing.

你可以随便怎么称呼它。

You can call it whatever you want.

你可以对这个术语进行辩论。

You can debate the term.

你可以讨论历史上的相似之处。

You can debate the historical parallels.

随便吧。

Whatever.

这就是正在发生的事。

This is what's happening.

所以，你知道，政府反击的另一部分，就是试图用圣保罗一家教堂的反ICE抗议者干扰礼拜的新闻来分散人们的注意力，而该教堂的一名神职人员同时也是当地ICE办公室的负责人。

So, you know, the, the other part of the administration's counter offensive, is to, now to try to distract people with the story of the anti ICE protesters who interrupted a service at a church in Saint Paul, where one of the clergy is also the leader of the local ICE field office.

因此，周四早上，特朗普阵营的MAGA媒体明星们，无论是否在政府内部，都在社交媒体上大肆宣扬此案中的三起逮捕事件，仿佛他们刚刚抓到了本·拉登一样。

So on Thursday morning, all the Trump MAGA media stars inside and outside of the administration, took to social media to tout three arrests in the case, as if they had like just caught Bin Laden.

显然，他们还试图对随同抗议者进入教堂并采访他们的独立记者唐·莱蒙提起指控。

Apparently, also tried to bring charges against independent journalist Don Lemon, who accompanied the protesters into the church and was interviewing them.

另外，当唐在采访教会人员时，法官却拒绝签发对唐·莱蒙的逮捕令。

Also, the way, Don was interviewing the church officials, but the judge wouldn't sign off on the warrant to charge Don Lemon.

据《政客》报道，帕姆·邦迪对此极为愤怒，因为他们没能把唐·莱蒙卷入这波逮捕行动中。

That apparently according to Politico enraged Pam Bondi that they couldn't that they couldn't grab Don Lemon, sweep him up in this, in this set of arrests.

在宣布逮捕时，克里斯蒂·诺姆将这次抗议称为‘圣保罗教堂暴乱’。

As they announced the arrest, Kristi Noem called the protest, quote, the Saint Paul Church riots.

邦迪称这是一次有组织的攻击，并用全大写字母写道：我们不容忍对宗教场所的攻击。

And Bondi called it a coordinated attack and wrote in all caps, we do not tolerate attacks on places of worship.

他们真正想抓的，其实就是唐·莱蒙，

Really, they just really wanted to arrest Don Lemon,

嗯，负责民权部门的哈米德·迪伦在本尼·约翰逊的播客上承诺要逮捕唐，其实是被对方激将才这么做的。

Well, know, it's Hamid Dillon, who's in charge of civil rights division, went on Benny Johnson's podcast and basically promised to arrest Don She was kind of goaded into it.

然后本尼·约翰逊把这段视频发了出去，标题是‘特朗普司法部要起诉唐·莱蒙’。

And then Benny Johnson sent out the clip, was like Trump DOJ to charge Don Lemon.

所以，就像这个政府的大部分政策制定一样——右翼特朗普官员在右翼播客上说了什么，那件事就立刻成了政策，他们就是这样试图起诉唐·莱蒙的。

And so they had to as has been true of most of the policy making of this administration is right wing Trump administration official says something on a right wing podcast, it then becomes policy, then this is how they try to charge Don Lemon.

我的意思是，明尼阿波利斯整个占领事件的根源，其实来自尼克·雪莉的YouTube视频，他在视频里做了一个极其虚假的调查，声称明尼苏达州由索马里人运营的日托中心存在欺诈行为，但尼克·雪莉展示的任何地方都没有证据支持这一点，而事实上，多年前明尼苏达州早就查处过大量欺诈案件。

I mean, you can argue that the entire occupation of Minneapolis flows from fucking Nick Shirley's YouTube video where he does this ridiculously fake investigation of Somali run daycare centers in Minnesota pretending that there was fraud there, even though there's no evidence of that in any of the places that Nick Shirley showed, even though there was, you know, plenty of fraud that had been charged years ago in Minnesota.

大额欺诈案件。

Big fraud cases.

我敢肯定，当时政府心里想：糟了。

I'm sure then the administration was like, oh, shit.

这个孩子关于欺诈的视频火了。

Well, this kid's video is going viral about the fraud.

我们早就起诉过这些欺诈行为。

We've already charged the fraud.

事实上，是拜登政府起诉了这些欺诈行为。

In fact, the Biden administration charged the fraud.

所以我们现在得编出新的欺诈案来。

So now we gotta come up with new fraud.

但在那之前，我们为什么不干脆派一队移民与海关执法局的特工去明尼阿波利斯，看看他们能发现什么？

But until then, why don't we just send a bunch of ICE agents to Minneapolis and see what they find?

而我们就这样在这里了。

And here we are.

这正是因为这是公平的。

This is exactly because it is fair.

这是一个公平的问题：为什么特朗普政府可以在全美所有城市部署3000名移民与海关执法局人员，却偏偏选择了明尼阿波利斯。

It's a fair question to ask wherein all the cities in America where the Trump administration could deploy 3,000 ICE troops, they pick Minneapolis.

这是因为明尼阿波利斯的索马里社区，因为在右翼的叙述中，焦点完全集中在索马里社区身上。

And it's because of the Somali community in Minneapolis because in the right wing telling of this story, the focus is entirely on the Somali community.

特朗普，我的意思是，他几乎明确表示索马里人……不如人类。

Trump has I mean, he has been almost explicit that Somali, you know, Somali people are less than human.

所以这就像一条蛇在吞食自己。

And so they're they're they're it's basically it is this it's it's like a snake eating itself.

从右翼媒体开始。

Starting with the right wing medium.

我们又回到了原点。

We're right back there again.

《Pod Save America》由Smalls赞助播出。

Pod Save America is brought to you by Smalls.

你快把我搞死了，Smalls。

You're killing me, Smalls.

一月是我们所有人试图重新开始的时候。

January is when we all try to reset.

为什么这不该包括你的猫呢？

Why shouldn't this include your cat?

嘿，猫。

Hey, cat.

你的新年决心是什么，猫？

What are your New Year's resolutions, cat?

现在是2026年了。

It's 2026.

为什么你还像在1926年那样喂你的猫？

Why do you still feed your cat like it's 1926?