阿凡达：火与灰以及让我们快乐的事物

这条信息来自全新推出的三集播客《吉尔莫女孩一代》，该播客重新回顾了热门电视剧《吉尔莫女孩》，探讨为何它在二十五年后的今天依然引发共鸣。

This message comes from generation Gilmore Girls, the brand new three part podcast that revisits the popular TV series Gilmore Girls and asks why it still resonates twenty five years later.

请在您收听播客的任何平台关注《吉尔莫女孩一代》。

Follow generation Gilmore Girls wherever you get your podcasts.

詹姆斯·卡梅隆的《阿凡达》系列制作了有史以来最昂贵且最赚钱的电影之一。

James Cameron's Avatar series has produced some of the most expensive and lucrative films ever made.

故事设定在距离地球数万亿英里外的一颗遥远月球上，影片讲述了部落为抵御人类军事入侵而奋起抗争的宏大故事。

Set on a faraway moon, trillions of miles from Earth, the movies tell ambitious stories about a clan who must fend off a human military invasion.

在《阿凡达：火与灰》中，故事延续为一部视觉震撼、时长近三个半小时的电影，充满史诗般的战斗、不稳定的联盟、人类同化以及与鲸鱼的辩论。

In Avatar Fire and Ash, the story continues in a visually stunning nearly three and a half hour movie full of epic battles, uneasy alliances, human assimilation, and debates with whales.

我是史蒂文·汤普森。

I'm Steven Thompson.

今天做客NPR流行文化欢乐时光的，是自由职业音乐与文化记者丽哈娜·克鲁兹。

Joining me today on NPR's pop culture happy hour is freelance music and culture journalist, Rihanna Cruz.

嗨，丽哈娜。

Hi, Rihanna.

嗨，史蒂文。

Hey, Steven.

今天我们还邀请了作家克里斯·克利米克。

Also with us is writer Chris Klimick.

嗨，克里斯。

Hey, Chris.

好的，史蒂文。

Yes, Steven.

我已经多次请你用我获得的头衔称呼我——塔鲁克·马克托。

I've asked you repeatedly to introduce me by the title I have earned, Taruk Makto.

也许下次吧。

Maybe next time.

你是为了这次对话才在学纳威语吗？

Have you been learning Na'vi just for this conversation?

我脸下的字幕写着‘是的’。

Papyrus subtitles beneath my face say yes.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Alright.

导演兼联合编剧詹姆斯·卡梅隆花费了十多年时间才制作出其大胆特效大片《阿凡达》的续集，但几年后推出的《阿凡达：水之道》取得了丰厚的回报。

It took more than a decade for director and co writer James Cameron to make a sequel to his audacious special effects blockbuster Avatar, but the weight paid off handsomely with Avatar the Way of Water a few years ago.

这部电影在全球收获了数十亿美元票房，并获得了奥斯卡最佳影片提名。

The film grossed billions of dollars worldwide and was nominated for a best picture Oscar.

如今，卡梅隆带来了另一部续集《阿凡达：火与灰》，在片中，纳美人——那些蓝色的人——被一支寻求资源和复仇的人类军队追击。

Now Cameron returns with another chapter called Avatar Fire and Ash in which the Na'vi, they're the blue guys, are chased by a human military that seeks both resources and revenge on the Na'vi.

他们尤其关注那个有着非常不像纳美人名字的角色——杰克·苏利，由山姆·沃辛顿饰演。

They're especially interested in the one with the very non Na'vi name Jake Sully played by Sam Worthington.

他是在第一部电影中倒戈并更换了身体的前人类海军陆战队员。

He's a former human marine who switched sides and bodies in the first film.

在《阿凡达：火与灰》中，人类军队主要由斯蒂芬·朗饰演的迈尔斯·夸里奇上校代表。

In Avatar Fire and Ash, the human military is still largely personified by colonel Miles Quaritch played by Stephen Lang.

你想把你的火焰燃遍全世界吗？

You wanna spread your fire across the world?

是的。

Yeah.

我会给你枪支。

I'll give you guns.

我会给你通讯设备、火箭筒，嗯，那可是强大的魔法。

I'll give you comms, RPGs, well, that's strong magic.

远程指挥，如闪电般打击。

Command from a distance, strike like lightning.

军方与一个由可怕的瓦兰领导的部落结盟，瓦兰由奥娜·查普林饰演。

The military teams up with a clan led by the fearsome Varang, played by Oona Chaplin.

简而言之，要概括出Beyond这一点的剧情需要很长时间。

Suffice it to say that summing up the plot beyond that would take a very long time.

而且，除此之外，真正引人注目的是这一切的视觉奇观。

And besides, what really stands out here is the spectacle of it all.

视觉效果、超真实的外星世界、令人惊叹的水效，以及无数场战斗。

The visuals, the hyper realistic alien realms, the stunning water effects, and the many, many, many, many battles.

《阿凡达：火与灰》目前正在影院上映，不过我认为我可以代表詹姆斯·卡梅隆说，即使你等以后在手机上观看，体验也不会打任何折扣。

Avatar fire and ash is in theaters now, though I think I can speak for James Cameron when I say that the experience would lose nothing if you wait and watch it later on your phone.

里希拉·克鲁兹，我先从你开始。

Rihanna Cruz, I'm gonna start with you.

你对这部最新作品有什么看法？

What did you think of the latest installment?

好吧。

Alright.

我非常兴奋地接入了这次的‘伊瓦之树’，《火与灰》。

I was very excited to plug into the Tree of Ewah for this one, Fire and Ash.

你了解这些背景故事。

You know the lore.

你已经领先一步了。

You're already one step ahead.

我全身心投入了，宝贝。

I'm locked in, baby.

我是个《阿凡达》死忠粉。

I'm an Avatar head.

你知道的。

You know?

我想我们之前做《水之道》那期节目时，我们三个人聊过。

I spoke on the episode that we did on Way Water, the three of us, I think.

没错。

Exactly.

那就是

That's

对。

right.

我们重新召集了议会。

We're reconvening the council.

当然。

Absolutely.

为了流行文化欢乐时光。

For pop culture happy hour.

而且，你知道，我说过我离开了《水之道》，离开潘多拉时我很难过。

And, you know, I said that I walked out of the Way of Water, and I was upset that I left Pandora.

从那以后，我一直很想再去看望我的朋友们，我是这么称呼他们的。

And since then, I've been kind of itching to visit my friends again, as I call them.

我的朋友们，帕亚康。

My friends, Payacon.

我的朋友们，洛奇，等等等等。

My friends, Loach, etcetera etcetera.

嗯。

Mhmm.

不。

No.

但问题是这样。

But here's the thing.

我知道这些电影有缺陷。

I know these movies are flawed.

我知道这些电影有各种问题。

I know these movies have their issues.

我知道有些情节发展一眼就能看出来。

I know that there are plot details that you could see from a mile away.

我知道这些隐喻很生硬。

I know the metaphors are clumsy.

我知道某些角色让人不知如何处理，尤其是蜘蛛。

I know that certain characters, you don't really know what to do with them, namely Spider.

对吧？

Right?

但关键是，说实话，我根本不在乎。

But the thing is is that I don't really care, frankly.

需要影院体验，尤其是在当今这个时代。

Need theatrical experiences, especially in this day and age.

史蒂文，你提到了‘视觉奇观’这个词。

Steven, you mentioned the word spectacle.

而我从《火与灰》中感受到的是，我知道剧情并不是最好的。

And that's what I came away from Fire and Ash with is that, you know, I know that the plot isn't the best.

我知道角色的动机都很单一。

I know that the character motivations are one dimensional.

但我真正去那里，是为了看詹姆斯·卡梅隆能如何运用电影媒介。

But I'm really there to see what James Cameron can do with the cinematic medium.

我去那里是为了看 aforementioned 的战斗场面。

I'm there to see the aforementioned battles.

我去那里是为了看他对潘多拉星球空间的呈现。

I'm there to see what he does with the space of Pandora.

在这方面，我确实感到非常满意。

And in that, I really was satisfied.

我的意思是，看完《火与灰》后，我觉得它是这个系列的一个优秀补充。

I mean, I left Fire and Ash thinking that it was a great addition to the franchise.

坦白说，过去几年里，《水之道》已经成为我最喜爱的电影之一。

Wavewater has become one of my favorite movies over the past few years, frankly.

这部电影对我来说没有达到那样的高度，但仍然是该系列中一部相当扎实的作品。

And this did not reach those heights for me, but still was a pretty solid entry into the franchise.

我会回去再看，就像我和《阿凡达》粉丝们约定的那样，看五遍。

And I will be going back and seeing it hashtag see it five times as me and the Avatar lovers have come up with.

所以我很喜欢它。

So I enjoyed it.

所以这些电影才赚了80亿美元。

So that's why those movies have made $8,000,000,000.

目前有一个关于《阿凡达：火与灰》的活动，几乎带着调侃的意味。

There is a campaign for Avatar Fire and Ash that's, like, almost in jest.

就是那个‘看五遍’的话题标签。

That's like a hashtag see it five times.

这就像泰勒·斯威夫特粉丝文化，买25张《女伶的一生》来帮它冲榜的能量。

This is some Taylor Swift stan culture buy 25 copies of the life of a showgirl to help it on the charts energy.

我知道。

I know.

我从不会对其他系列这么狂热。

I don't ride for any other franchise like this.

我不是那种系列迷。

Like, I'm not a franchise lover.

对于《阿凡达》，我觉得里面带点讽刺意味，这正是我喜欢它的原因。

Avatar, I'm like, there's a hint of irony to it, and that's why I love it.

它如此真诚，让我真的很喜欢。

Like, it's so sincere that I really dig it.

好吧。

Okay.

你呢，克里斯？

How about you, Chris?

天啊，我真希望能像我之前对《阿凡达》和詹姆斯·卡梅隆其他电影那样，给予这部电影更热烈的推荐。

Boy, I wish I could give this more of a full throated endorsement than I'm going to.

当然，我认为我之所以不像以前那样对这部电影感到兴奋，可能是因为发行策略——这根本不是第三部。

Certainly, I think my sort of failure to be as jazzed by this as I have by prior installments of Avatar and prior James Cameron movies is maybe down to the release strategy because this is not a part three.

这更像是第二部的第二部分。

This is like part two part two.

你懂的？

You know?

在现实世界中，《阿凡达》和《阿凡达：水之道》之间相隔了十三年。

There were thirteen years that elapsed in the real world between Avatar and Avatar the way of water.

故事里的时间也差不多过去了这么久，当然，得忽略一下在潘多拉上一年到底有多长。

Roughly the same amount of time has passed in the story, you know, discounting the fact that, like, what's a year on Pandora?

毕竟，它属于另一个恒星系统。

It's a part of a different solar system.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

当然。

Sure.

但我的意思是，第一部电影里他们还没有孩子。

But, I mean, they don't have kids in the first movie.

杰克和内蒂在《水之道》开篇时已经有了四个孩子，我想。

Jake and Nateri have four kids, I think, when the way of water opens.

所以，故事实际上已经推进了一代人。

So, I mean, the story has progressed literally a generation.

故事有了足够的扩展，还有世界观在物理制作上的大幅拓展。

There's enough expansion of the story and just, you know, physical production value expansion of the world.

我们看到了整个海底文化、会说话的智慧鲸鱼、佩亚孔，还有所有这些东西。

We get the whole undersea culture, the sentient talking whales, paeacon, and and all that stuff.

上一部电影值得等待，就像《帝国反击战》那样，极大地扩展了《星球大战》的世界，正因为如此，它显得如此令人满足且神秘。

And the last one that it was worth the wait, you know, in the same way that, like, the empire strikes back so exponentially expanded the world of Star Wars and felt so rewarding and mysterious for that reason.

《水之道》确实回报了这段漫长的等待。

Way of Water, you know, kind of paid off on that long delay.

我觉得，如果这部电影在《水之道》上映一年后才发布，就像《女巫》那样，那我可能会更感兴趣。

And I think, like, had this come out maybe a year after Way of Water, way that Wicked just did Sure.

但我可能对它会有更积极的反应。

I might have been a little more responsive to it.

但我的意思是，经过三年的间隔，这纯粹是后期制作。

But I mean, after a three year gap, that's just all post production.

我敢肯定，这是有史以来最复杂的电影后期制作。

I'm sure this is the most complicated, you know, post that any movie has ever had.

你期待的不只是接着刚才看的内容继续下去。

You do expect more than just like, and here's the rest of what you were just watching.

它并没有扩展。

It doesn't expand.

它没有像第一部和第二部之间的差距那样进行迭代。

It doesn't, you know, iterate in the way that the gap between one and two did.

它只是感觉像是更多相同的内容，而这些相同内容的质量却非常高。

It just feels a little bit like more of the same, and the quality of that more of the same is so high.

你知道吗，我说这话感觉有点不知好歹，但确实，如果你在意大银幕的观影体验，那就一定要去看。

You know, I feel a little ungrateful saying this, but, yeah, I mean, certainly, if you care at all about the big screen experience, you gotta go.

一定要去看。

You gotta go.

我还会再去看几次。

And I'll be going back a couple more times.

我的人生价值何在？

I you know, what's my life worth?

我还有六个小时

I got another six and

半小时

a half

留给詹姆斯·卡梅隆。

hours for Jim Cameron.

是啊。

Yeah.

我希望我能更兴奋一点。

I wish I could be more enthused.

我认为在观看这样一部电影时，这一点非常重要。

I think it's really important when you're watching a film like this.

像这样的电影，在技术上如此先进的，几乎没有其他影片了。

Like, there are very few movies that look this technically advanced, if any.

对吧？

Right?

这些画面看起来真是令人惊叹。

Like, these are stunning to look at.

这部电影中有许多视觉场景，简直非凡至极，真的值得暂时放下你对叙事可能存在的批评，静下心来好好欣赏这场视觉盛宴，因为它美得令人窒息。

There are, like, visual set pieces in this film that are just absolutely remarkable, and it really is worth taking a moment to just kind of set aside the critical piece of your mind that's maybe not into the storytelling and just take a moment to kind of revel in how beautiful this spectacle looks because it is gorgeous.

我在这部电影上真正感到困扰的是它的节奏和时长。

Where I really struggled with this movie was in the pacing and in the length.

我知道说‘太长了’这种批评听起来很敷衍。

And I know that's such a lazy critique to be like, it's too long.

你知道吗，你花了四亿美元，用了多少年？

You know, you spent $400,000,000 in how many years?

我太享受了。

I was too entertained.

我太享受了。

I was too entertained.

给我少点剧情。

Give me less movie.

但这部电影中有一些地方。

But there are points in this movie.

电影快结束时，我承认我偷偷看了眼手机，想看看几点了。

There's one point kind of late in the film where, I admit, I kinda peeked at my phone to see what time it was.

还剩四十五分钟，我想，好吧。

There was forty five minutes left, and I was like, alright.

我们要以最奢华的战斗来收尾，为第四部电影做铺垫。

We're gonna bring this baby in for a landing with the most lavish battle of them all, and it's gonna set us up for the fourth film and all that.

然后他们停下来与鲸鱼展开辩论。

And then they stop for a debate with the whales.

我当时就想，这电影也太多了吧。

I just was like, this is too much movie.

你知道吗，有些电视剧创作者会说，我不把我的剧当成电视剧。

You know how some TV creators will be like, I don't think of my TV show as a TV show.

我把它们当成一部八小时的电影。

I think of it as an eight hour movie.

这感觉就像五集超高预算的《阿凡达》电视剧连续播放。

This feels like five episodes of a very big budget Avatar TV show strung back to back to back to back to back.

我觉得它比三个小时十七分钟要长得多，这真不容易。

I felt like it felt significantly longer than three hours and seventeen minutes, which really takes some doing.

剧情层层堆叠，层层叠加，最终演变成一场我感觉非常平淡的最终战斗。

There's kind of lore piled on top of lore piled on top of lore, kind of culminating in what I found to be a really actually very anticlimactic final battle.

我认为这个团队的视觉天赋是无与伦比的。

I think that the visual gifts of this team are unparalleled.

从长远来看，这种做法的风险在于——我想在我们接下来的讨论中，特别是从蕾哈娜的角度来探讨——当你的电影如此专注于技术上的前沿时，随着时间推移，这种效果会逐渐减弱，因为其他人终究会追上来。

The risk in that in the long term and something that I kinda wanna get to in our next kind of round of discussion here, particularly from Rihanna, is, like, when your movie is so focused on being the state of the art technologically speaking, the passage of time tends to dull the effect of that as everybody else catches up.

没错。

Right.

当我三年前在《阿凡达：水之道》上映前重看第一部《阿凡达》时，我惊讶地发现它看起来简直像一款电子游戏。

When I watched the original Avatar, you know, in the run up to the way of water three years ago, I was really taken aback by how much it looked like a video game.

我不禁怀疑，随着技术普及，这些电影的视觉冲击力会不会逐渐减弱，因为正如你暗示的那样，蕾哈娜，这些影片在叙事和人物塑造上确实存在缺陷。

And I wonder if the effects of these films is gonna get dulled as everybody catches up because as you kind of alluded to, Rihanna, there are faults and flaws in the storytelling, in the characterizations.

整个剧情核心都是这种我们已经看过无数次的‘白人救世主’叙事。

The whole plot kind of centers on this white savior

没错。

Yep.

这种叙事模式我们已经见过无数次了。

Narrative that we've seen play out a million times.

对话也带点电子游戏的味道。

Like, the dialogue is a little video gamey.

这些电影会经得起时间的考验吗？

Are these gonna age well?

我的意思是，这是个很好的问题。

I mean, that's a great question.

我不太觉得会。

And I don't really think so.

我觉得我得说，我不确定。

I think I think I'm gonna come down and say that I'm not sure.

因为这些电影的缺陷一直在于剧本。

Because the flaws with these movies have always been the scripts.

你知道吗，我记得第一部里有个经典梗，就是‘unobtainium’（无法获得的物质）这个东西他们根本搞不到。

You know, I remember like, first one, the classic, you know, meme of unobtainium being the thing that they can't obtain.

这些元素在整个系列中一直存在。

Like, these things permeate over the course of the franchise.

我不知道它们会不会经得起时间的考验。

I don't know if they'll age well.

我现在差不多每三个月就会看一次《阿凡达：水之道》。

I could say because I watch Way of Water once every, like, three months at this point.

我花了大量时间沉浸在潘多拉世界里，而且我非常享受这一点。

I've spent a lot of hours of my life in Pandora and I'm very happy to.

说实话，《水之道》的年代感完美极了。

Waywater is aged perfectly, frankly.

我认为这个行业还没跟上步伐。不。

I don't think the industry is caught up No.

还没。

Yet.

我同意。

I agree.

我认为总有一天，我们会回望这些电影，那时特效不再震撼，我们或许能更有效地、更恰当地评价它们。

I think one day we'll look back on these movies and the spectacle won't be there and then we can evaluate them perhaps more effectively, perhaps more appropriately.

但我觉得，如今我们很少能看到真正宏大的、大写的‘史诗’电影了。

But I I think we don't really get epic capital e movies a lot these days.

我觉得这真的让我震惊。

And I think that's really what floors me.

有很多情节线索，我干脆就抛在脑后了。

There's a lot of narrative threads that like, I kinda just throw out the window.

你知道，它们只是在我脑海里退到一边。

You know, they kinda go to the back of my mind.

每次蜘蛛一上镜头，我知道我总提起他，哎呀。

Every time Spider's on screen, I know I keep bringing him up, like Oh, boy.

蜘蛛是夸里奇上校的人类儿子，没错。

Spider is the human son of Colonel Quaritch Yes.

他某种程度上已经融入了纳威人。

Who has sort of become assimilated into the Na'vi.

是的。

Yeah.

但他甚至需要借助呼吸装置才能在这颗星球上生存。

But, like, requires the help of, like, a breathing apparatus to even survive on this planet.

他的名字叫迈尔斯，绰号是蜘蛛。

And his given name is Miles, and his nickname is Spider.

然后他们又给他另一个绰号，叫猴子男孩，但你名字都已经是蜘蛛了，这感觉有点多余。

And then they give him another nickname, which is Monkey Boy, which if your name is already Spider, just seems like prude.

你知道的？

You know?

这真是

That's a

是的。

Yeah.

一顶帽子上再戴一顶帽子

Hat on a hat on

再戴一顶帽子。

a hat.

光是他的这个角色就让我觉得特别不舒服，这么说吧。

Just his mere character kind of gives me the ick, so to speak.

不过，也不只是表演的问题吧？

It's not the performance too, though?

嗯，有一点。

A little Yeah.

我的观点是，从《水之道》开始大幅增加他的戏份，并没有为这部电影增色。

I mean, dramatically expanding his screen time from The Way of Water was not an asset to this film, in my opinion.

好吧，这正是我对这部电影唯一不满的地方，我觉得它在一些不需要过多着墨的地方花了太多时间。

Well, that's like the one flaw that I have with this movie is that, like, I think it spends a little bit too much time on the places that it doesn't need to spend time.

我完全支持托尔金的部落议会，史蒂文。

I'm totally for the Tolkien tribal council, Steven.

我觉得那是我最喜欢的场景之一。

I I thought that was one of my favorite scenes.

我不知道你在说什么。

I don't know what you're talking about.

他们正在和鲸鱼争论。

They're arguing with whales.

电影已经进行了两个半小时。

It's two and a half hours into the movie.

你知道吗，我记得上一部电影里，当他们提出鲸鱼会说话这个设定时，海卡农的第一句台词用象形文字字幕呈现，简直太痛苦了。

You know, I remember that, like, when they introduced the idea that the whales are gonna talk in the last one and Hayakon's first line subtitled in papyruses, it's too painful.

我当时就想：没错。

I was like, yes.

我们就这样干了。

We're doing this.

我们要给鲸鱼加字幕，宝贝。

We're subtitling the whales, baby.

我得为鲸鱼说句公道话，这部电影里至少有一个完整的鲸鱼动作高潮场景，我很喜欢。

I will say in defense of the whales, there is at least a full blown action payoff to the whales in this film that I did enjoy.

就是那个在上一部电影里，我们看到他被复仇的莫比·迪克咬断手臂时还为他欢呼的捕鲸人。

Like, the whaling guy who we all cheered when he got his arm severed by a vengeful Moby Dick in the last movie.

他回来了，只装了一只小小的假肢手臂。

Like, he's back with just a little prosthetic arm.

这就像，你知道，也许这正是我对这部电影的一些不满的隐喻——它确实让人感觉我们只是在重复上一部的全部亮点。

It's like, you know, that's maybe a metaphor for some of my issues with this movie is, like, it does kinda feel like we're just playing all the hits from the last one.

没错。

Yeah.

说到重复亮点，我认为我之所以对这部电影评价这么正面，是因为它本质上就是《水之道2》。

On the playing the hits part, I think that's why I come down so positively about this movie is because it's essentially Way of Water two.

对吧？

Right?

就像它是《水之道》1.5，或者你愿意怎么叫都行。

Like, it's Way of Water 1.5 or whatever you wanna call it.

它满足了和上一部同样的需求。

Like, it fills the same needs as the last one.

而且《火与灰》中甚至有一些场景几乎完全照搬了《水之道》里的片段。

And there's even some scenes in Fire and Ash that are kind of bar for bar exact scenes from Way of Water.

比如有一个场景，蜘蛛被人类抓走了。

Like, there's a scene where, like, Spider is taken by the humans.

他被关在实验室的一个牢房里，或者你管它叫什么都可以。

He's held in, like, a cell in the lab or whatever you wanna call it.

嗯。

And Mhmm.

科里克以纳威人的形态进来，和他进行了几乎与上一部电影中完全相同的对话。

Coric comes in in Navi form, has basically the same conversation with him that they have in the last movie.

再次把他的身份牌给了他。

Gives him his dog tag again.

再次。

Again.

就像，你之前做过这个，爸爸。

Like, you did that, dad.

对。

Right.

他说：我是你爸爸。

He's like, I'm your father.

蜘蛛说：你不是我爸爸。

Spider's like, you're not my dad.

他们交换了狗牌。

They have a dog tag exchange.

就是完全一样的对话。

Like, same exact conversation.

感觉这件事可能并不是让这部电影长达三小时十七分钟所必需的。

Felt like something that maybe wasn't essential to this movie being three hours and seventeen minutes long.

你看，你老提起时长，史蒂文，但说实话，我个人非常喜欢这个时长。

See, you keep bringing up the runtime, Steven, but, like, I am all for the runtime, personally.

我觉得《阿凡达》系列电影某种程度上像是我们这个时代的一种慰藉，你知道的。

I think Avatar movies kinda, like, serves a balm of, like, the age we live in, you know.

因为就像，嗯。

Because like Mhmm.

我们生活在一个注意力被TikTok、Netflix原创剧集等不断争夺的时代。

We live in an era of like attention grabbing slot between like TikTok, Netflix originals, whatever.

我喜欢《阿凡达》电影，因为它们全心全意地投入了电影制作的艺术。

I love the Avatar movies because they're so devoted to the craft of filmmaking.

而这种东西，你现在真的再也看不到了。

And that's like not something you really see anymore.

这是一部旨在让你沉浸于一个世界中的电影。

It's a movie that's designed to immerse you in a world.

这或许可以归结为类似电子游戏的特质，但这也正是我喜爱它的原因。

And that could probably equate to the video gamey qualities, but that's what I love about it.

它感觉非常沉浸，让我觉得自己主动选择前往潘多拉，参与一部电影——我经常这么做。

It feels very immersive and it feels like I'm making an active choice to go to Pandora and participate in a film, which I do often.

你知道，今年我在影院看了超过一百部电影，但这部真的深深吸引了我。

Know, I've seen over a 100 movies in theaters this year, but it really compels me.

它以一种其他电影无法比拟的方式吸引着我，因为它全然地献身于电影艺术。

And it really draws me in in a way that other movies don't because it's so full throatedly for the art of filmmaking.

以及剧情的铺垫与回报，即使表面上看不出来。

And the art of plant and payoff, even though it might not seem like it.

在《火与灰》中，我注意到一些关于水的线索被埋下，并在这里被承接和扩展。

There's threads in Fire and Ash that I noticed being planted in way of water that are picked up here and expanded on.

我基本上把它们看作一个完整的史诗。

I kinda just see them as a whole saga.

这让我想起了《猩球崛起》系列电影。

It reminds me of the Planet of the Apes movies.

马特·里夫斯执导的《猩球崛起》系列。

The Matt Reeves planet of the apes franchise.

那个

Which

我认为它们共享同一组编剧。

does share a set of screenwriters, I think.

哦，是吗？

Oh, does it?

是的。

Yeah.

他们参与了卡梅隆为这部作品组建的编剧室，这在某种程度上解释了我在这里的一些疑虑。

They were in the writers room that Cameron assembled for this, which kind of speaks to some of my issues here.

卡梅隆组建了一个编剧室。

Cameron had a writers room.

你知道的？

You know?

他并不是独自撰写所有这些剧本，所以当时肯定有充足的时间和人才来解决这些问题。

He wasn't writing all of these solos, so there was certainly ample time and talent on board to iron out some of these issues.

我的意思是，有些问题根本无解——比如，我成年后所经历的一切，都再也无法像当年看《终结者2》时那样酷了，那时我正处在《终结者2》上映时的年纪。

I mean, some of this is just the insoluble problem that, like, nothing I experienced in my middle aged life will ever be as cool as, you know, seeing Terminator two was at the age I was when Terminator two came out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但卡梅隆曾经也像普通人一样，在成为世界之王之前，他可是节俭之王、精打细算之王。

But Cameron was once like, before he was the king of the world, you know, he was the king of economy, the king of stretching a buck.

嗯。

Mhmm.

艺术确实能在限制中蓬勃发展。

And art really does thrive on restriction.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，他出自罗杰·科曼的工作室，那里一切都很廉价。

I mean, he came out of the Roger Corman workshop, right, where everything was dirt cheap.

如果你不在这行里演戏，就得去搬灯光或为下一个场景画布景，那种真正的DIY美学贯穿其中。

And if you weren't in this scene acting, you were moving lights or painting the set for the next scene where there was this real DIY aesthetic.

而且，我的意思是，这种精神一直延续至今，卡梅隆至今仍以能胜任电影制作现场的每一项工作而闻名，我相信这正是他让人乐于共事的原因之一。

And, I mean, that does carry through in the sense that Cameron is still famously the guy who can do every job on a movie set, which I'm sure is one of the qualities that makes him such a joy to work for.

但没错。

But yeah.

但，我

But, I

我的意思是，一点限制。

mean, I think a little restriction.

你知道吗，这时候有人告诉他‘不行’，只会对他有帮助。

You know, someone to tell him no could only help him at this point.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得有人能把剧本精简一下，这部电影会更好。

I think someone to pare down the script would have helped this movie.

但当我们为詹姆斯·卡梅隆辩护时，我也想指出，这种感觉真的很令人耳目一新。

But while we're speaking in defense of James Cameron here, I also just wanna point out how refreshing it is.

尽管这些年来我对这些电影有不少批评，但我们有时会感慨，如今那么多大片都是基于老IP打造的。

As many, like, kind of issues as I've had with these films over the years, we sometimes lament, you know, how many blockbuster movies are built around old IP.

我的意思是，你提到了《人猿星球》。

I mean, you mentioned Planet of the Apes.

你知道，这么多系列电影其实都是翻拍、重复、重启，只是在不断回收旧的知识产权。

You know, so many of these franchises are really remakes and rehashes, reboots, just kind of recycling old intellectual property.

而这部影片却是一个原创故事。

And this is an original story.

尽管它有许多其他故事的回响，但它拥有自己独特的传说。

As many echoes as it has of other stories, this is its own lore.

它有着自己独特的视觉风格。

It has its own visual stamp.

我认可他在电影创作上的雄心。

I give him credit for filmmaking ambition.

我认可他，坦白说，这部电影看起来像是花了4亿美元制作的。

I give him credit for frankly, this movie looks like it cost $400,000,000.

当然。

Sure.

有时候你看一部电影，发现它的预算高达2021.5亿美元，就会想，这些钱都花到哪儿去了？

Sometimes you see movies and you see that the budget is $202,150,000,000 dollars, and you're like, where did that money go?

是啊。

Yeah.

但这里的情况并非如此。

That is not the case here.

它看起来花了很多钱。

It looks that expensive.

所以我仍然对这些电影感到着迷，欣赏它们的技术工艺，能够被视觉奇观所吸引，但有些情感节点却……

And so I I still find myself kind of stuck on these movies in admiring them, admiring the technical craft of them, you know, being able to get swept up in the visual spectacle, but some of the emotional beats.

这部电影确实试图触动许多情感节点。

And this film is really trying to hit a lot of emotional beats.

不知为何，这些情感节点对我的触动，没有在其他系列中那么强烈。

For whatever reason, those emotional beats just don't hit me as hard as they might in a different franchise.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我个人觉得很多情感节点都打动了我，但我觉得它像一部肥皂剧式的煽情片。

I felt like a lot of the emotional beats landed for me personally, but I was seeing it as kind of this melodrama soap opera.

但也许这并不是它的本意。

But maybe isn't the intent.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得詹姆斯·卡梅隆可能把它看作一部更有格调的剧情片。

Like I I think maybe James Cameron is seeing it as more of like a prestige drama.

但我看杰克和奈蒂莉讨论他们孩子种族问题时，感觉就像茶水洒了似的。

But I was watching the conversations that Jake was having with Naytiri about like the race of their children as like tea spilling.

对吧？

Right?

我当时就想，哦，你们在谈混血种族的问题。

Like I was like, oh, like you're having the mixed race conversation.

我完全能get到，你知道的。

Like, I'm tapped in, you know.

在这部电影里，我经常这么做：把他们对话的内容剥离掉电影赋予的沉重感，然后想，哦，你们这不就是在闲聊吗。

And I was doing that a lot in this movie where I was kind of taking the conversations that they were having, stripping away the weight that the movie is giving to it And being like, oh, like, you guys are having a link up here.

我就在听你们的闲聊。

Like, and I'm listening to the link up.

比如夸里奇跟那个我管她叫‘火系反派’的人说话的时候。

Like, when Quaritch is talking to the fire baddie, as I like to call her.

我当时就想，哦，这下真有意思了。

I was like, oh, like, this is like, we're getting into it.

我觉得让我觉得电影有趣的地方就在于，我一边看一边拿着爆米花，心里想着：这里真有戏啊。

And I think that's what makes the movies fun for me is that I'm watching these and I'm sitting there with my popcorn being like, there's drama here.

你知道吗？

You know?

我简直被灌了一肚子狗血剧情。

I'm being like spoon fed drama.

通常我并不喜欢电影强行塞给我情感。

And usually, don't really like when movies force feed me me emotion.

但这次的剧情，我个人觉得挺对胃口的。

But the drama here worked for me, personally.

好吧。

Alright.

我认为可以肯定地说，无论我们对这部电影的评价如何，我们都极其钦佩它的视觉奇观。

Well, I think it's safe to say that wherever we came down on the movie, we all hugely admire the spectacle of it all.

我们想知道你们对《阿凡达：火与灰》有什么看法。

We wanna know what you think about Avatar Fire and Ash.

在 Facebook 上关注我们：facebook.com/pchh，或在 Letterboxd 上关注我们：letterboxd.com/nprpopculture。

Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture.

我们会在本集的描述中提供链接。

We will have a link in our episode description.

接下来，让我们聊聊这周让我们开心的事。

Up next, what is making us happy this week?

本信息由 Wise 应用提供，这是一款全球理财应用。

This message comes from Wise, the app for using money around the globe.

使用 Wise 管理资金时，您始终能获得中间市场汇率，且无隐藏费用。

When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees.

加入数百万用户的行列，访问 wise.com。

Join millions of customers and visit wise.com.

条款和条件适用。

Ts and cs apply.

你收听《纽约客广播秀》，是因为这里能听到与你真正想倾听的人进行的深度对话，无论是布鲁斯·斯普林斯汀、奎斯特洛夫或奥利维亚·罗德里戈、莉兹·切尼，还是人工智能之父杰弗里·辛顿，或是我在《纽约客》的几位博学多闻的同事。

You come to the New Yorker Radio Hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really wanna hear from, whether it's Bruce Springsteen or Questlove or Olivia Rodrigo, Liz Cheney, or the godfather of artificial intelligence, Jeffrey Hinton, or some of my extraordinarily well informed colleagues at The New Yorker.

所以，请每周收听《纽约客广播秀》，无论你在哪里听播客。

So join us every week on The New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

现在有太多事情正在发生：经济不平等日益加剧、民主受到威胁、环境灾难频发，空气中弥漫着混乱的腐臭气息。

There's a lot going on right now, mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.

我是WNYC《媒体观察》节目的主持人布鲁克·格拉德斯通。

I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media.

你想了解那些将我们带到今天境地的叙事背后的原因和意义，甚至想阻止它们进一步恶化吗？

Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the past?

这就是《媒体观察》的专长。

That's On the Media Specialty.

无论你在哪儿听播客，都来听听吧。

Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.

在《Radiolab》，我们最享受的就是对科学、神经科学和化学进行狂热的探讨。

At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry.

但我们确实也喜欢

But but we do also like to

深入其他类型的故事。

get into other kinds of stories.

关于警察或政治的故事。

Stories about policing or Politics.

乡村音乐。

Country music.

冰球。

Hockey.

昆虫的性别。

Sex of bugs.

无论我们是否关注科学，我们都以严谨的好奇心为你寻找答案。

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers.

并希望让你以全新的视角看待世界。

And hopefully, make you see the world anew.