情感价值

我是《美国生活》节目的艾拉·格拉斯。

This is Ira Glass of This American Life.

你知道我们的节目吗？

Do you know our show?

好的。

Okay.

不管怎样，我都要给你介绍一下。

Well, either way, I'm gonna tell you about it.

我们制作的故事，希望能在一开始就用有趣的瞬间、情感和处于意外情境中的人物吸引你，然后你就会忍不住想了解接下来会发生什么，无法停止收听。

We make stories that hopefully pull you in at the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations, and then you just wanna find out what is gonna happen and cannot stop listening.

没错。

That's right.

我说的就是那种会让你错过约会的精彩故事。

I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments.

这里是《美国生活》节目，你可以在任何平台收听我们的播客。

This is American Life wherever you get your podcasts.

有

There are

很多电影讲述缺席的父亲重新出现在孩子生活中的故事。

a lot of movies about absentee dads who reappear in their kids' lives.

新片《情感价值》是其中一部佳作。

The new movie Sentimental Value is one of the great ones.

该片由斯大林·斯卡斯加德饰演一位试图与疏远的女儿们重建联系的电影制作人。

It stars Stalin Skarsgard as a filmmaker attempting to reconnect with his estranged daughters.

这至少证明了艺术与为人父母之间的紧张关系是复杂的。

And it proves that at the very least, the tension between art and parenthood is complicated.

我是阿伊莎·哈里斯。

I'm Ayesha Harris.

今天我们要讨论的是情感价值与NPR的《流行文化欢乐时光》。

Today, we're talking about sentimental value and pop culture happy hour from NPR.

短短三年内，ChatGPT已经改变了我们对人工智能的认知和互动方式。

In just three years, ChatGPT has changed the way we think about and interact with artificial intelligence.

在大学校园里，人工智能的影响来得迅猛，让教师和管理人员措手不及。

On college campuses, the impact has been swift, leaving teachers and administrators scrambling.

如果我们不够谨慎，AI的存在可能会毒害我们与学生的关系。

If we're not careful, the presence of AI can poison our relationships with our students.

人工智能如何改变高等教育？

How is AI changing higher education?

现在请收听NPR《Up First》播客的周日故事栏目。

Listen now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR.

这个感恩节周，NPR新闻的《Up First》将成为您的陪伴，为您带来旅行、购物、黑色星期五、经济健康状况等各类晨间必备资讯。

This Thanksgiving week, Up First from NPR News is your companion with news of traveling and shopping and Black Friday and the health of the economy and all the other news you need to start your day each morning.

您可以通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听。

Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

我们更容易从认为糟糕的事物中发现积极面，还是从热爱的事物中筛选出优点？

Is it easier for us to find the positives in something we considered bad or to narrow down the positives of something we loved?

我是格伦·威尔顿。

I'm Glenn Weldon.

在最新一期《流行文化欢乐时光Plus》节目中，我和Ayesha讨论了评论工作面临的挑战。

On the latest pop culture happy hour plus episode, Ayesha and I discuss the challenges of criticism.

您可以通过注册+.npr.org/happy收听所有Plus会员专享节目，并支持我们的工作。

You can listen to all our plus bonus episodes and support our work by signing up for pop culture happy hour plus at +.npr.org/happy.

所以我只是想快速确认一下。

So I just wanna check-in really quick.

你还好吗？

Are you okay?

或者你正遭受睡眠不足、一堆账单或政治宣传的困扰？

Or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills, or political propaganda?

如果是这样，你可能陷入了为人父母的困境。

If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap.

在《It's Been a Minute》播客中，我们将深入探讨现代育儿的焦虑，以及这些压力如何影响我们所有人——即使你没有孩子。

On the It's Been a Minute podcast, we're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us even if you don't have children.

来寻找一些慰藉吧。

Come find some relief.

请在NPR应用或你获取播客的任何平台收听《It's Been a Minute》播客节目。

Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

今天与我同台的是我的搭档主持人，史蒂文·汤普森。

Joining me today is my cohost, Steven Thompson.

你好，史蒂文。

Hello, Steven.

你好，阿伊莎。

Hello, Ayesha.

与我们在一起的还有《Vulture》电视评论家罗克珊娜·哈达德。

Also with us is Vulture TV critic, Roxanna Haddad.

欢迎回来，罗克珊娜。

Welcome back, Roxanna.

嘿。

Hey.

非常感谢邀请我参加。

Thank you so much for having me.

很高兴你能来。

Lovely to have you here.

《情感价值》由斯特兰·斯卡斯加德饰演古斯塔夫·伯格，一位正在筹备个人心血之作的著名电影导演。

Sentimental Value stars Stellan Skarsgard as Gustaf Borg, a renowned filmmaker preparing his next feature, a personal passion project.

他将女主角的机会给了疏远的女儿诺拉（由蕾娜塔·莱茵斯维特饰演的女演员），但遭到了拒绝。

He offers the lead role to his estranged daughter Nora, an actress played by Renata Rheinsvith, but she turns him down.

尽管如此，他重新进入诺拉的生活为与她和另一个女儿艾格尼丝（由英格·艾布的女儿莉莉奥斯饰演）的和解开启了可能。

Still, his reentrance into Nora's life opens the door for possible reconciliation with her as well as his other daughter, Agnes, played by Inga Eib's daughter, Lilios.

艾丽·范宁饰演瑞秋，一位被古斯塔夫选中接替诺拉拒绝出演角色的美国女演员。

Elle Fanning also stars as Rachel, an American actress whom Gustav cast in the part Nora rejected.

该片由约阿希姆·特里尔执导，他此前曾与莱因茨维尔合作过《世界上最糟糕的人》。

It's directed by Joachim Treer, who previously worked with Rheinzweil on The Worst Person in the World.

《情感价值》现已在影院上映。

Sentimental Value is in theaters now.

史蒂文，我想先从你开始。

Steven, I'm gonna start with you.

你是我们这里常驻的多愁善感评论家。

You are you are a resident sentimental critic here.

常驻多愁善感者。

Resident sentimentalist.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

我真是非常好奇。

And so I am so curious.

大家对这部电影感觉如何？

How are we feeling about this film?

嗯，要知道，艾莎，你一看到这部电影就立刻推荐说，史蒂文，你一定要看这个。

Well, know, I think, Ayesha, you recommended as soon as you saw this movie, you were like, Steven, you need to see this.

你会哭得稀里哗啦的。

You're gonna sob all over the place.

你知道，这在推荐任何电影时基本上是个稳妥的假设。

And, you know, that is a safe assumption in general, really, when recommending any movie.

我真的很喜欢这部电影。

I really liked this film.

我非常欣赏这部电影。

I really admired this film.

我爱这部电影里的表演。

I love the performances in this film.

我认为这基本上是一部全员演技精湛的佳作。

I think this is basically across the board a wonderfully acted film.

我倒没有哭得稀里哗啦的。

I didn't necessarily sob all over the place.

我主要是沉浸其中并细细品味。

I mostly sat there kind of vibing with it and appreciating it.

这部电影对代际创伤这个话题有很多要表达的。

This film has a lot to say about kind of generational trauma.

有许多跨代际的互动都承载着沉重的含义。

There are a lot of kind of cross generational interactions that are kind of freighted.

影片以这栋房子为核心隐喻，你知道，这个家庭在这里成长，而它既是象征意义上也是实际意义上的破碎之家。

There's this central metaphor about this house, you know, where this family kind of grew up and how it is figuratively and literally a broken home.

它有一个

It has a Yeah.

裂缝从地基一直延伸到墙面，你会觉得，这真是个简洁的隐喻。

Crack running up the foundation, up the wall, and you're like, that is a tidy metaphor.

所以我并非时刻都被它完全震撼，但我认为这些表演简直精彩绝伦。

So so I wasn't necessarily always 100% knocked out by it, but I think these performances are just marvelous.

我喜欢《世界上最糟糕的人》中的雷娜塔·瑞恩斯瓦。

I loved Renata Rheinsvah in the worst person in the world.

我觉得她在片中的表现堪称卓越。

I thought she was magnificent in that.

我对她的每一部作品都充满期待。

I'm always interested in whatever she does.

她与同一位导演合作的事实让我觉得，天啊，这两人完全可以一直合作拍电影。

The fact that she's, you know, working with the same director, I'm like, man, these two can just keep making movies together.

是啊。

Yeah.

但对我来说，真正的惊喜是英格·伊布斯多蒂尔·莉莉奥斯。

But for me, the revelation was Inge Ibsdottir Lilios Yeah.

她饰演的阿格妮丝。

As Agnes.

这是一场如此低调的表演，要知道她周围都是些功成名就的演员。

It's such a low key performance, and it feels you know, she's surrounded by these kind of decorated actors.

其实她本人也是获奖演员，只是在这里不太出名。

You know, she is a decorated actor, just not super well known here.

没错。

Yeah.

在我看来，她在银幕上简直光芒四射，那是一种内敛而充满力量的表演。

To me, she just jumped off the screen, and that is such a contained and powerful performance.

是啊。

Yeah.

电影接近尾声时，她的角色与诺拉之间有一个非常动人的时刻。

There's a very lovely moment towards the end of the film that happens between her character and Nora.

那种姐妹间的互动关系逐渐展开

And that sort of sister dynamic plays out

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

有趣的是，她自己并没有追求演艺事业，尽管她们俩都是在父亲同为演员的环境中长大的，所以看到这两个有着共同创伤和共同关系的人以如此不同的方式生活，真是引人深思。

So interestingly because she herself has not pursued the acting career even though, you know, they both grew up with their father being the same as and so, like, that's such an interesting way to see these two different people who have shared trauma and shared a shared relationship.

你说得太对了。

And you're so right.

那真是一场精彩的表演。

That's such a great performance.

罗克珊，你对《情感价值》这部电影感觉如何？

Roxanna, how are we feeling about Sentimental Value?

我非常支持。

I am very pro.

我是说，你看。

I mean, look.

就像，你知道我所有的偏好。

Like, you know all my preferences.

对吧？

Right?

我的偏好是，就像，斯特兰就是斯特兰。

My preferences are, like, Stellan being Stellan.

我喜欢他扮演那种，你知道的，为自己的错误决定辩护的角色。

Like, I love when he sort of plays this, like, very defensive in his bad decisions kind of figure.

我觉得这很棒。

Like, think that's great.

因为《安多》，我现在永远都会喜欢这种设定。

I'm coded to love that now forever because of Andor.

所以我在这里真的很喜欢他作为一个全身心投入艺术的人。

So I I really loved him here as someone who has committed himself fully to art.

他就那样说，是啊，我的家庭是第二位的。

And he's like, yeah, my family was second.

就是说，家庭必须排第二，因为我必须创作艺术。

Like, it had to be second because I had to make art.

所以我认为这部电影在探讨这种意识形态方面做得非常好，并且花时间展现了成为电影制作人的本质。

And so I think that the movie does a really good job getting into that ideology and just sort of spending time with what it is to be a filmmaker.

你和演员们会进行什么样的对话？

What kind of conversations do you have with actors?

你如何选角？

How do you cast people?

你如何让他们成为他们试图演绎的角色？

How do you make them into the characters they're trying to perform?

我真的很喜欢这部电影的这个方面。

I really loved that aspect of it.

家庭部分显得格外沉重。

The family stuff is like very weighted.

而且确实，它反复出现这个房子的隐喻。

And yes, it has this like house metaphor that keeps coming up.

但我真的很喜欢那种'如何拍电影'的探讨，尤其是当电影在挖掘你的内心世界时。

But I I really enjoyed the sort of like how do you make a movie, especially when the movie is like plumbing your inner life.

对吧？

Right?

比如，什么是禁忌？

Like, what is off limits?

什么不是禁忌？

What is not off limits?

有很多时刻斯特兰的角色会说'这与我无关'。

And there are all these moments where Stellan's character says, like, well, this isn't about me.

你不得不笑，因为——

And you sort of have to laugh because, like You're

是啊。

like, yeah.

没错，老兄。

Right, buddy.

老兄，整部电影就是你的自传，你还把你女儿们也扯进来了。

Buddy, the entire movie is your life story and you're drawing your daughters into it.

对吧？

Right?

它并没有让我特别情绪化，反倒是让我觉得与这个剧本和这些角色共度时光非常、非常满足。

So it did not make me super emotional so much as it felt very, very satisfying to spend time with this script and with these characters.

所以我就是...没错。

And so I just Yes.

我讨厌说什么'氛围'这种话，但就那种投入真正创作追求的感觉，我想正是我真正喜欢并产生共鸣的地方。

I hate to say, like, the vibes, but but the vibe of it in terms of, like, diving into actual creative pursuit, I think, is what I really, really liked and responded to.

是啊。

Yeah.

我也觉得这部电影有点慢热

I also think this movie is a little bit of a slow burn

是啊。

Yeah.

片中有些关系需要花些时间才能真正领悟。

Where it takes a little bit of time for some of the relationships in the movie to fully sink in.

我在影院观看时，好几次都在想，为什么艾丽·范宁会出现在这部电影里？

And as I was watching it in the theater, I'd had the thought several times of, like, why is Elle Fanning in this movie?

嗯。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

就像，艾丽·范宁是被安排进这部电影的。

Like, Elle Fanning is brought into this movie.

她就像那位被请来替代不愿与父亲合作的雷娜塔·莱茵斯菲斯特角色的著名闪亮电影女星。

She's like the famous, glitzy movie actress who was brought in to be the stand in for Renata Rheinsfest character who doesn't want to work with her father.

但回过头来看，仔细想想这部电影，她之所以出现在那里，是因为他与演员的关系比与子女的关系更好。

But, like, looking back on it and kind of thinking about the film in hindsight, like, she's there because he relates to actors better than he relates to his kids.

100%同意。

100%.

没错。

Yes.

所以他希望自己的孩子成为演员，这样他就能与他们建立联系。

So he wants his kids to be actors so that he can connect to them.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这是这部电影一个非常有趣的侧面，它不仅仅关乎家庭。

And I think that's a really interesting facet of this film that it's more than just about family.

同时也关乎电影制作人。

It's also about filmmakers.

确实。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对我来说，艾丽·范宁实际上是这部电影中我最喜欢的部分之一，如果不是

For me, Elle Fanning was actually one of my favorite parts of this film, if not

同意。

Agree.

整个那种动态关系。

That entire dynamic.

她正在悄然成为那种女演员——每当我在某部作品中看到她时，都会觉得'有你出演真好'。

She's quietly becoming one of those actresses who who where I see her in something, and I'm like, oh, I'm very happy you're here.

她经常没被拿来和同辈女演员相提并论，比如詹妮弗·劳伦斯那些人，但她应该被重视——特别是在这部影片里，虽然如你所说一开始不清楚她为何存在，但古斯塔夫试图塑造她的这条支线剧情

She's often not in the conversation with the women in her sort of cohort, know, your Jennifer Lawrence is like but she should be because I think especially here, while at first, it's as you said, Steven, it's not clear why she's there, there is this whole subplot of her trying to be molded by Gustave.

这非常像《迷魂记》的手法。

And it is very vertigo.

这非常像是，我要你去染头发。

It is very, like, I want you to dye your hair.

我要你做这些事情。

I want you to do these things.

而她顺从是因为她想，我有机会与这位杰出艺术家合作，这可能会很棒。

And she's going along because she's like, I have this opportunity to work with this brilliant artist, and this could be great.

这原本可以有另一种演绎方式。

And there's a way that this could have been played.

她是那个美国女演员，好莱坞女演员，只想把这次经历当作资历，或许还能拿个奥斯卡。

She's the American actress, the Hollywood actress who just kind of wants to, like, put this under her belt and maybe get an Oscar.

这个角色本可能显得很令人不适，但很明显她是想做好作品。

Like, there's a way this could have felt like a very queasy role, but it's very clear she wants to do good work.

但我喜欢这种动态关系的是，当这一切发生而他正为做不好父亲而挣扎时，她在试图弄清楚自己的位置，并可能意识到这或许不适合我。

But what I loved about that dynamic is that while that's happening and he's dealing with his not being a good father, she is trying to figure out, like, where do I fit in and maybe realizing maybe this isn't right for me.

是啊。

Yeah.

这其中有些东西，以及看到它以某种方式展现出来，通常很难在电影制作和排练中准确把握，就像嗯哼。

There is just something about that and seeing that play out in a way that it's often really hard to get filmmaking and rehearsing right to, like Mhmm.

在电影中。

On film.

就像，很难让它看起来像是那个自然而然的过程。

Like, it's hard to make it seem, like, feel like the natural process of that.

我认为约阿希姆·特里尔在这里能做到的，是真正深入探讨与某人一对一合作的细节，尤其是当你希望他们成为某种样子，或者试图塑造一个角色，而他们不确定如何做到，你也不确定自己想要什么的时候。

And I think what Joachim Treer is able to do here is really get into the nitty gritty about what it's like to work one on one with someone, especially when you want them to be something or, like, want to try and work, like, create a character, and and they're not sure how to do it, and you're not sure what you want either.

我非常喜欢这一点。

And I loved that.

我们讨论了很多关于艺术创作过程的电影。

We cover a lot of movies about the process of making art.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

而艺术创作是一件很难在电影中捕捉的事情，通常你会用孤独的天才坐在写字台前涂涂写写然后扔进废纸篓这样的简略方式来表现，

And making art is a thing that is really hard to capture on film, and often you wind up shorthanding it with, like, the lone genius sitting at a writing table scribbling out and throwing into the wastebasket and,

比如《曼克》。

like Mank.

是的没错。

That's yeah.

《曼克》。

Mank.

那本该展现艺术创作过程的本质。

That's supposed to represent what the artistic process is all about.

但艺术创作过程往往——我经常这么说——并非孤胆天才的独舞。

But so often, I mean, the artistic process, generally, I I say this all the time, is not the work of a lone genius.

它是协作的产物。

It's the product of collaboration.

你该如何捕捉那种充满荆棘、对话、挫败感又紧绷的创作过程？正是这种过程孕育了伟大艺术。

And how do you capture the kind of thorny, conversational, frustrated, kind of tightly wound process, you know, that results in great art.

而这部电影，我认为确实触及了核心，同时展现了这种过程有多难转化为维系幸福健康家庭所需的协作关系。

And this film, I think, really does get at it while also capturing how hard that can be to translate into the collaboration necessary to have a happy and healthy family.

我也很喜欢这一点，而且这确实是其中的重要部分——关于谁拥有你的个人经历这个问题，尤其是当你的个人经历与他人有所重叠时。

I also think the thing that I really liked, and it's very much part of that, is that there's sort of this question of, like, who owns your personal experience, especially when your personal experience, like, overlaps with other people.

我们在自传体艺术中经常遇到这种情况。

And we get into this a lot with just autobiographical art in general.

当你的经历涉及他人，而那些人并不希望你谈论这些时，你是否有立场去讲述？

Is it your place to speak to things that you experienced when they involve other people and those other people don't want you to speak to them?

所以这里还有这整个潜流存在。

And so there's this whole undercurrent there as well.

然后有个精彩的场景，诺拉和瑞秋这两个角色相遇了。

And there's this like wonderful scene where the characters of Nora and Rachel meet.

你为什么不想接这个角色？

Why didn't you wanna do the role?

我没法和他合作。

I can't work with him.

为什么？

Why?

我们真的没法沟通

We can't really talk.

但他希望你来演

But he wanted you to do it.

是啊

Yeah.

嗯

Yeah.

他们

And they

进行这种类似存在主义的讨论

have this, like, sort of existential discussion.

对吧？

Right?

关于那种关系是什么样的？

About, like, what is that relationship like?

我觉得这一切都非常引人入胜。

And I just think all of that was really fascinating.

另外我想说的是，我非常喜欢古斯塔夫这个角色身上体现的那种艺术等级观念。

The other thing that I will say that I really enjoyed is there is sort of this like in Gustav's character, this sort of like hierarchy of art that I actually really liked.

比如他贬低电视，当然电影导演都会这么做。

Like he insults television, which of course a film director would do.

他某种程度上

And he sort of

当然。

Of course.

他某种程度上质疑了诺拉成为备受赞誉的舞台剧演员这个事实。

He sort of like discredits the fact that Nora has become like a very celebrated stage actor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

比如，他

Like, he

对舞台表演毫无兴趣。

doesn't want any part of the stage.

是啊。

Yeah.

这很奇怪。

Which is weird.

没错。

Yeah.

他本以为会

He would think there would be a little

对舞台多些敬畏。

bit more reverence for the stage.

但

But

我是说，舞台纯粹主义确实存在。

I mean, stage purism is such a thing.

那是的。

That's yeah.

确实如此。

That's true.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道，我们讨论了很多关于情感共鸣和创伤之类的内容，这些都百分之百存在。

You know, we're talking a lot about sort of like the emotional resonance and like the trauma and like all that stuff is like 100% there.

但我也喜欢这些角色可以对不同艺术形式表现出些许不屑的时刻。

But I also liked these moments when the characters can just be like sort of shady about different art forms.

没错。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这充分展现了剧本质量和演员表演的出色，这些角色感觉被全面、丰富地构思和刻画了出来。

It speaks to the quality of both the script and these performances that these feel, like, fully, richly thought out and drawn characters.

是啊。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

我确实想问一下，就像我们开麦前聊的，罗克珊，你和我讨论过这部电影与另一部电影的相似之处

I did wanna kind of ask about, like, before we got on mic, Roxanna, you and I were chatting about similarities between this and another film

是的。

Yes.

那将在今年秋季上映。

That will be out this fall season.

杰·凯利 嗯哼。

Jay Kelly Mhmm.

诺亚·鲍姆巴赫执导，乔治·克鲁尼主演的电影。

The Noah Baumbach film starring George Clooney.

非常非常相似，非常相似。

Very, very similar Very similar.

在情节上。

In plots.

是的。

Yeah.

乔治·克鲁尼这次演的不是导演。

George Clooney is playing instead of a director.

他是个大电影明星。

He's a big movie star.

基本上，演的是他自己，但又不完全是。

Basically, of a himself, but not.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他正试图与女儿们重新建立联系，并思考自己哪里做错了。

And he's trying to reconnect with his daughters and figure out, you know, where did I go wrong?

为什么缺少温暖？

Why is the absence of heat?

听我说一会儿。

So hear me out for a second.

记得在90年代，我想是80和90年代，有一大批电影讲那些工作狂父亲们，你知道的，他们必须经历一番折腾才意识到，哦，你没在孩子身边。

Remember in the nineties, I guess eighties and nineties, where there was a slew of movies where the dads who were, like, workaholics were getting you know, it was like you had to go through a whole rigamarole or it's like, oh, you're not there for your kids.

然后在电影结尾，他们意识到，哦，我需要成为一个更好的父亲。

And then, like, at the end of the movie, they realize, you know, oh, well, I need to be a better father.

工作不是一切。

Work isn't everything.

那就是你把手机扔进河里的时候。

That's when you hurl your cell phone into the river.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯，我是说，这感觉像是那种故事的升级版。

Well, I mean, this feels like, you know, the elevated version of that.

确实。

Sure.

只不过主角不是蒂姆·艾伦之类的，而是斯特兰·斯卡斯加德。

Instead of, you know, like, Tim Allen or whatever, it's it's Sterling Skarsgard.

罗宾·威廉姆斯，金·凯瑞。

Robin Williams, Jim Carrey.

我们说的是《虎克船长》。

We're talking about Hook.

我们能不能直接说我们在讨论《虎克船长》？

Can we just say that we're talking about Hook?

这样挺好的。

Like, that's fine.

当然。

Sure.

我们是在讨论《虎克船长》。

We're talking about Hook.

我只是好奇，因为看过这两部电影后，这种关于父亲的题材而非母亲的探讨，这种创作手法究竟有何特别之处？

I'm just curious because, like, having seen both of these movies, just, like, what what is it about this sort of exercise, especially when you're talking about fathers and not mothers?

是啊。

Yeah.

关于这点你有什么想说的吗？

Is there anything you wanna say about that?

嗯，我觉得我们总体上正处在一个'父亲与女儿'题材盛行的时代。

Well, I think we're generally just sort of living in, like, a heavily fathers of daughters time.

这似乎正是我们当前获得的绝大部分内容。

That just seems to be so much of the content that we get.

我是说，《最后生还者》就是关于父亲和女儿的。

I mean, The Last of Us is fathers of daughters.

这两部电影都是关于父亲和女儿的。

Both of these movies are fathers of daughters.

我认为部分原因当然是我们仍然生活在一个电影导演大多是女儿父亲的社会。

And I think part of that, of course, is that we still live in a society that is very much movie directors are fathers of daughters.

确实如此。

That's true.

你知道，就像是，他们只是在表达自己的危机，因为创作艺术的就是这些人。

You know, like, just get their crises because that's who's making art.

我想说的是，我确实认为这些电影彼此之间形成了有趣的对比。

I will say that I I do think that, yes, these movies are sort of like interesting counterpoints to each other.

对我来说，《情感价值》更多是关于电影制作和记忆的。

I would say I think that for me, sentimental value felt more about filmmaking and memory.

而且我认为J。

And I think J.

凯利的作品更多是关于名人制造机。

Kelly felt more about like the celebrity machine.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，较少涉及父女关系的动态。

Less to me about the daughter dynamic.

我觉得更像是探讨成为乔治·克鲁尼是什么感觉。

I think it felt more like, what is it like to be George Clooney?

这种探索还挺有趣的。

That's that's sort of fun to explore.

没错。

Yeah.

但我认为它更多是关于造星机制，而非艺术创作本身。

But I I think it just felt more about, like, star making than it felt about, like, art making.

我无法评价杰伊·凯利。

And I can't speak to Jay Kelly.

我还没看过那部电影。

I haven't seen it yet.

但我认为，与众多关于父女的电影相比，这部影片做对了一件事：它深切关注女儿们的内心世界。

But I do think one thing this film gets right in comparison to so many other films about dads and daughters is this movie cares very deeply about the interior lives of the daughters.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

没错。

Yes.

并且确实是从女儿们的内心视角来书写的。

And does write by the interior lives of the daughters.

这部分要归功于演员们的表演，但另一部分在于电影本身确实关心

And part of that is a testament to the performances, but part of that is the movie actually cares about

他们。

them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而父亲的角色更像是一个飘忽不定、难以捉摸的存在。

And the dad is a little bit more of an ephemeral mercurial presence.

就是说，你未必完全了解这个人的所有行为动机。

Like, he's the one you don't necessarily know everything that makes that guy tick.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为这部电影最终更关注的是女儿们。是的。

I think the film is ultimately more interested in the daughters Yeah.

这点值得称赞。

To its credit.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我认为我们几乎花了同样多的时间在他们身上。

I think we spend almost as much time with them.

如果不是更多的话。

If not more.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

如果不是更多的话。

If not more.

而我认为，对我来说，这部电影最大的问题——其实也是我唯一的问题，就是结局部分太过煽情。

And I think, for me, one of my biggest issues well, my my only issue with this film, sentimental value, really, is the ending.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我确实感觉有些情感节点不知怎么被跳过了。

I did feel as though there was some emotional there are some emotional beats that somehow were skipped.

尽管这是一部情感丰富的电影，细节处理也很到位，但最后几分钟让我感觉有些失望，因为结局显得太过整洁。

Even though this is a very emotional movie and there's so much attention to detail, it's like the last few minutes, I did feel a little bit let down by how kind of tidy it all felt.

不是完美，只是整洁。

Not perfect, but just tidy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这个词用得恰到好处。

That's exactly the right word.

这并没有破坏。

It doesn't undermine.

这并没有破坏我对电影其他部分的体验，但我确实希望在那里能做出不同的决定。

It doesn't ruin the rest of the experience of the film for me, but it does kind of give me, like, I kind of wish there was a different decision made there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我某种程度上觉得这个结局是不可避免的。

I sort of felt like the ending was inevitable.

就像，考虑到影片探讨的主题——关于艺术表达，以及是做挑战自我的艺术还是擅长领域的艺术更重要——我不知道还能怎么收尾。

Like, I don't know how else you would end this movie given sort of like the themes that it is talking about in terms of like artistic expression and like, is it most important to do art that challenges you or just art that you're good at?

我认为在这部电影里，这两者是非常不同的选择。

And I think that those are, like, very different things in this film.

我能理解你的观点，感觉在抵达结局的过程中可能有些处理不够扎实。

I can see your point that I feel like maybe there's some, like, squishiness in terms of how we get there.

但我一直觉得我们终会抵达那个结局，所以最后我还是接受了这个安排。

But I always sort of thought we would get there, so so I was okay with it by the end.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得他们本有可能搞砸结局的，但庆幸他们并没有。

I think there are ways they could have actually biffed the ending, and I appreciated that they didn't.

这倒是真的。

That's true.

在一部愿意在其他方面深入探讨的电影中，这个结局确实感觉有点过于工整。

It does feel a little tidy in a film that is willing to go so much deeper in other ways.

我想这也许就是为什么这种工整感显得格外突出。

I think that's maybe why the tidiness stands out.

嗯。

Mhmm.

约阿基姆·提尔曾谈到他将此视为对自己作为父亲焦虑的一种宣泄。

Yo Kim Trier has talked about how he sees this as sort of, like, an exercising of his own anxieties about being a father.

对。

Right.

我不想在这里对他进行心理分析，但我确实想知道这是否部分影响了他对结局的决定。

I don't wanna psychoanalyze him here, but, like, I do wonder if that maybe is part of why he made that decision with the ending.

就好像他还在处理一些事情。

It's like he's still working through things.

没错。

Right.

我也认为这恰恰说明了为什么选斯特兰来演。

I also think that it also speaks to the fact that like, this is why you cast Stellan.

对吧？

Right?

我要开个玩笑——虽然不属实——斯特兰好像有一百万个孩子似的。

Like Stellan has I am gonna make this joke, which is not true, but Stellan has like a million children.

他们全都在演戏。

They're all enacting.

表演。

Acting.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这其中还有某种

Like, I I think that there is also sort of

家族伤痕的守护。

Family scars guard.