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本节目由以下赞助支持：经营企业已经够难了，干嘛还要用十几个互不相通的软件让自己更累呢？
Support for this show comes from Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
介绍下 Odoo。
Introducing Odoo.
这是你这辈子唯一需要的商业软件。
It's the only business software you'll ever need.
它是一个一体化、完全整合的平台，能让您的工作轻松许多。
It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
客户关系管理、会计、库存、电子商务，还有更多功能。
CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.
最棒的是什么？
And the best part?
Odoo 用不到几分之一的价格，就取代了多个昂贵的系统。
Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
所以，成千上万的企业都选择了切换到 Odoo。
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
那你为什么不去试试呢？
So why not you?
去 odoo.com 免费试用 Odoo 吧。
Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.
就是 odoo.com。
That's odoo.com.
本节目由 Fetch 宠物保险赞助。
Support for this show comes from Fetch Pet Insurance.
你养宠物吗？
Do you have a pet?
在美国，每六秒钟就有一位宠物主人收到一张超过一千美元的兽医账单，而且几乎都是突如其来的意外。
Every six seconds, a pet owner in The US gets hit with a vet bill of over a thousand dollars, and it's almost always an unwelcome surprise.
这时候，Fetch 宠物保险就派上用场了。
That's where Fetch pet insurance comes in.
Fetch 是最全面的宠物保险。
Fetch is the most complete pet insurance.
兽医费用最高可报销90%。
Get paid back up to 90% of vet bills.
美国和加拿大任何一家兽医你都能用。
You can use any vet in The US and Canada.
所有兽医都在合作网络内。
All vets are in network.
现在就去 fetchpet.com/save 领取免费报价。
Go to fetchpet.com/save right now for your free quote.
就是 fetchpet.com/save。
That's fetchpet.com/save.
不管你做什么，都可以是任何事。
Whatever your thing, it could be anything.
Canva 能帮你把想法变成现实。
Canva helps you make that thing a thing.
Canva 是个简单好用的在线工具。
Canva is a simple online tool thing.
它能帮你用我们神奇的AI工具进行设计。
It's a way to design with our magic AI tool things.
你可以用它发社交媒体内容，生成图片或视频，还能做演示文稿来展示你的创意。
You can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks for presentations to show your thing.
不管你的创意需要什么，Canva都能帮你做得更好、更出彩。
Whatever needs to be done for your thing, Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing.
Canva，让一切成形的工具。
Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.
我给我妈打了电话，说：妈，我真的不干了。
I called my mom and I said, mom, I just I'm not going to do this anymore.
我不适合当模特。
I'm not supposed to be a model.
这真的不适合我。
This is just not for me.
她当时在电话里很肯定地告诉我：不行，你得坚持下去。
And she told me definitively on the phone, no, you are going to stick this out.
你的身体会改变某个人的人生。
Your body is going to change someone's life.
超模的身体是什么样子的？
What does a supermodel's body look like?
这样的身体怎么改变人们对美的标准？
And how can that body change lives and beauty standards?
今天我们的嘉宾是艾什莉·格雷厄姆，她是一名模特、企业家，整个职业生涯都在重新定义一个曾经不接纳她的行业。
My guest today is Ashley Graham, a model, entrepreneur, and someone who has spent her entire career rewriting the rules of an industry that didn't always let her in.
艾什莉是最早挑战时尚界对女性身材标准的人之一。
Ashley was one of the first to really challenge what the modeling world said a woman's body should look like.
从被禁播的Lane Bryant广告——你去搜一下——到登上《体育画报》泳装特辑的突破，再到她之后打造的一切，艾什莉始终做真实的自己。
From her banned ad for Lane Bryant, look it up, to her breakthrough Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, and everything she's built since, Ashley has always been unapologetically herself.
我特别欣赏艾什莉的地方，是她身上有多重身份。
What I love about Ashley is how multifaceted she is.
她不只是个模特。
She's not just a model.
她是个拼命打拼的人，是个女企业家，三个孩子的妈妈，百老汇演员，现在还创办了自己的葡萄酒品牌——Luce。
She's a hustler, a businesswoman, a mom of three, a Broadway performer, and now the owner of a new wine company, Luce.
我们聊了聊，作为女性，要怎样摆脱外界对你的期待，勇敢去追求更大胆的人生。
We talk about what it takes to break away from what's expected of you as a woman and how to step into something bolder.
我们还谈到了她对人工智能的尖锐看法，以及这会对模特行业未来产生什么影响。
We also get into her hot takes on AI and what it could mean for the future of modeling.
这一期笑声不少，但更难得的是，我们聊得特别真诚，关于身份、抱负，还有自我接纳。
This one has a lot of laughs, but also just a really honest conversation of identity, ambition, and self acceptance.
我是玛丽亚·莎拉波娃，欢迎收听《坚韧之美》。
I'm Maria Sharapova, and this is Pretty Tough.
Ashley，非常感谢你来参加我们的节目。
Ashley, thank you so much for for joining us for being here.
我们几周前见过面，那次谈话比较偏商业话题。
We spoke a few weeks ago, different contexts, very business oriented.
你当时在推广你的新酒品，我们待会儿再聊这个。
You were pitching your new wine, we're gonna get to that.
太好了
Yay.
不过我每次聊天都会从嘉宾的一句话开始。
But I start these conversations with a quote by the guests.
关于你的，我要回溯到很久以前。
And for yours, I'm going to go way back.
天哪。
Oh, Lord.
好吧。
Okay.
我的天。
Oh, Jesus.
你还记得这一句吗？
Do you remember this one?
我可太期待了。
I can't wait.
女性觉得我很有激励性，因为我从不道歉。
Women think I'm inspirational because I'm unapologetic.
我看到这句话时就想，这正是我当初做这个播客的原因之一。
I read that and I was like, this is one of the reasons I started this podcast.
我想对那些不为自己的身份、领导方式、生活节奏，以及与家人相处方式而道歉的女性说话，这话深深打动了我。
I want to speak to women who are not apologizing for who they are, how they lead, how they run their life, how they are with their family, and it resonated with me so much.
到今天你还觉得这句话成立吗？
Does it still ring true to this day?
完全成立。
100%.
我的意思是，我当年说这话的时候，可能已经是十五年前了。
I mean, I think what when I said that I probably said that fifteen years
对，那是很久以前的事了。
ago.
是啊，早就过去了。
Yeah, went way back.
很好。
Good.
我喜欢这一点。
I love that.
我当模特已经二十八年了，但什么都没变。
I've been modeling for twenty eight years, but nothing has changed.
从那时候到现在，二十八年前我十二岁刚入行时，可能根本不懂那意味着什么，但我还是会说同样的话——我就只是做自己。
Like even from then to now, twenty eight years ago, when I first started at the age of 12, I probably would have had no context for what that even meant, but would have still said the same thing the sense of I'm just being myself.
我觉得这才是最重要的。
And I think that's the most important thing.
我希望留给别人的遗产，就是让人真正做自己。
That's like part of the legacy I want to leave is just for people to really be themselves.
我觉得我们生活在一个不断有人告诉你该是谁、该怎么做世界里。
I think we live in a world where we're constantly being told who we are or who we should be.
该怎么去做。
How to do it.
是的，全部都是。
Yes, all of it.
无论是家人、朋友，还是社交媒体上那些你总觉得在和你较劲的人，
And whether it's through family members, friends, social media, you know, people that we feel like we're in competition with on a
每天都在这样。
daily basis.
所以，做你自己就好。
So just be yourself.
但很多女性并不这么想，也不这么说。
But not many women feel that way or speak that way.
你认为为什么女性依然很难自然地做到无所顾忌呢？
Why do you think it's still so rare for for women to feel naturally unapologetic?
我觉得这得看我们在什么样的场合里，对吧？
Well, I think it depends on what room we're in, right?
有意思的是，因为我做过模特，我很容易就能无所顾忌。
And what's interesting is having been a model, I could easily be unapologetic.
那时候，大家总在议论我的体重和身材，我其实根本没放在心上，但我接纳了它。
And there was, you know, there's there was always a conversation around my weight and my size and I just very much so ignored it, but I embraced it.
我这么做的原因，是想给那些没人可追随的人做个榜样——因为我自己小时候也没人可仰望。
And I really embraced it for the people who were, you know, who didn't have anybody to look up to because I didn't have anybody to look up to that it felt like as much.
但现在我当上了CEO，创业当创意总监，要管的事越来越多，要当这个家的主心骨，我才意识到，很多女性在这种时候反而不敢坦然做自己，不敢活出真我，甚至为此感到愧疚，或者有冒名顶替综合征。
But I think now being in the kind of like CEO role and building businesses and being creative director and having much more that I have to control and be the boss of, that's when I think there's like this kind of like hesitation that women have of being unapologetic and being themselves and and you know living in their truth and feeling almost bad for it or having imposter syndrome.
我确实有过这种感觉。
And I felt it.
我从来就没上过大学，更别提上过任何商业课了。
You know, I I never went to college let alone a business class in my life.
所以我有过好几次，干脆对自己说：管他呢，就算我不懂，又怎么样？
And so I've had some moments where I've had to really like, you know, say, okay, who cares if I don't know what the hell I'm talking about?
我边走边学，也决心要坦坦荡荡地这么走下去。
I'm learning as I'm going and I'm trying to be very unapologetic about it as well.
从我们年轻的时候起，你的身体就——
Since we were both young, you know, our bodies That's
对，我们依然爱着，我知道。
right, we still love I know
我们依然。
we still
我们的身体一直被各种方式议论纷纷。
Our bodies have been spoken about in so many different ways.
你看。
See.
对我来说，就是在美网打夜场比赛，穿着一条很短的裙子，别人就对你指指点点。
I mean, for me, it was, you know, playing a night match at the US Open while wearing a very short skirt and people had something to say about you.
你第一次意识到别人在议论你的身体，是什么时候？
When was the first time that you acknowledged that people are talking about my body?
天啊，有哪个时候人们不议论女性的身体呢？
God, when do they not talk about women's bodies, though?
只要你站在公众视野里，就免不了被人议论。
If you're in the public eye, it's going to be talked about.
我记得很早以前，还没开始当模特的时候，我的身体就已经被人议论了，不管是来自我父亲还是同学。
I remember early on, like before I was even modeling, that my body was being talked about, whether it was from my father or my classmates.
所以那时候就开始了。
So it starts it started then.
然后你那时候
And then you
还很小。
were young.
特别小。
Very young.
我12岁就开始当模特了。
And I started modeling at 12.
我第一个比较大的工作，算是全国范围内的，是《YM》杂志。
The my first big job that kind of like went, I guess, nationwide was YM Magazine.
那本杂志会展示不同体型的模特。
And they did different body shapes in the magazine.
那时候杂志里会说，梨形身材该穿什么，苹果形该穿什么，还有瓜形身材又该穿什么。
It was like, what to wear if you're pear shaped, what to wear if you're apple, and what to wear if you're cantaloupe.
所以那会儿在内布拉斯加州林肯市斯科特中学八年级，这可是全校热议的话题。
So that was a big talk of the town in eighth grade at Scott Middle School in Lincoln, Nebraska.
我还记得那本杂志。
And I remember that magazine.
我特别开心，特别自豪，我居然上了YM杂志，简直不敢相信。
I was so happy and proud of myself, like, I'm in YM Magazine, I can't believe it.
后来杂志里开始讨论瓜形身材，那时候大胸可能不太被看好，但我一直都很接纳自己。
And then it was, you know, it went through the school, cantaloupes, and then, I don't know, I mean, at that time it's probably not great to have big boobs, but I always embrace it.
我身上有点‘ scary spice’的劲儿，还带点红发的个性。
I had a little bit of Scary Spice in me, a little ginger spice in me.
随时都行。
Oh, anytime.
是的。
Yeah.
我就把那种能量用上了。
I just, I used that energy.
对。
Yeah.
每次 Spice Girls 一出事，
Anytime the Spice Girls are rough.
没错。
Yes.
你真的把那些审视转化成了巨大的力量，这你是怎么做到的？
But you've really, you've done so much to turn that scrutiny into a powerhouse.
你是怎么做到的？
How did you do that?
哎呀，这中间也有不少波折。
Oof, it has had its moments.
外人看我，大概觉得我一直是那个大大咧咧、自信满满、满不在乎的女孩吧。
I think everything on the outside seems like I've just been this big, confident, you know, loud girl, who cares?
过自己的日子吧，什么 cellulite，随它去。
Live your life, like cellulite, whatever.
但确实有过我想放弃的时刻。
But there's definitely been moments where I have given up.
刚开始的时候，我公开说过很多次，我给妈妈打电话，说：妈，我真的不干了。
I've publicly spoken a ton about in the beginning when I called my mom and I said, Mom, I just I'm not going to do this anymore.
我不该当模特。
I'm not I'm not supposed to be a model.
这根本不是我该走的路。
This is just not for me.
她在我电话里斩钉截铁地说：不行，你得坚持下去。
And she told me definitively on the phone, No, you are going to stick this out.
你的身体会改变某个人的一生。
Your body is going to change someone's life.
真是个了不起的母亲。
What a powerful mother.
就那句话，从我18岁在纽约搬进第一个真正属于自己的公寓起，就一直记在我心里。
That line alone has stuck with me since that apartment that I had, my first big girl apartment when I was 18 years old in New York.
我记得当时正跟她通电话，对着镜子看着自己哭，心里想着：完了，全完了——就像脑子里上演的那些狗血剧一样。
And I remember I was on the phone with her looking in the mirror, like watching myself cry being like, it's over, it's all over, you know, like the big dramatic series in your head.
但她说了那番话，深深印在我心里，我就想：好吧，既然这样，那我就为了这句话坚持下去。
But she said that to me and it stuck so deeply that I thought, you know what, this is it then, like I have to do it for that.
而我的职业生涯，最终真的变成了这样。
And that's exactly what my career turned into.
那是好多年以后的事了，期间经历了无数艰难，无数次被拒绝，无数次被人说你不够好。
It was years later, but it was a lot of hard and it was a lot of no's and it was a lot of you're not good enough.
但我相信，哪怕只有一点点希望的火苗，一丝丝自信的种子，只要能帮你跨过那道坎，就能走得很远。
But I think that, you know, just having a little, little like glimpse of a little seed of hope, a little seed of confidence, just something to get you over that hurdle can really go so far.
后来有了孩子，真的让我彻底崩了。
And then having kids really F me up.
天啊，我的身体。
Oh my god, my body.
我的身体就像一辆F1赛车，你跟我讲你的经历，但我的身体真是这样。
Mean, you tell me about your experience, but like, I mean, my body was like my F1 car.
生完孩子后，你就会想：我的引擎？
And then you have a baby and you're like, my engine?
不，它坏了。
No, it's broken.
太贴切了。
Love that.
我真的是
Is so The I'm
我特别喜欢你说的，我的身体就是一辆F1赛车。
totally taking the F1 that my body was my F1 car I love.
说真的，我的身体在某种程度上也确实像那样。
My body in a weird way kind of felt like that too.
我的身体能比作什么呢？
Like what can I what can my analogy to my body be?
但很多时候，我总是说，我喜欢我的沙漏身材。
But in so many ways I was always like, oh, I love my hourglass figure.
我喜欢我平坦的小腹。
I love my flat stomach.
我喜欢我的大腿这么丰满。
I love that my thighs are so juicy.
现在我的大腿还是这么丰满，但变化太大了，简直超乎想象。
And now my thighs are just juicy and juicy And and it is a lot what more is.
是的。
Yeah.
我的肚子这辈子都没这么圆过，可这都已经是生完双胞胎四年之后了。
And my stomach has never been this round in my life, yet still four years later after I have my twins.
我的肚脐眼也完全不一样了，你懂的。
And my belly button is just, you know, it looks different.
所有这些变化。
All the things.
各种事情。
Things.
所有这些变化。
All the things.
而且我
And I'm
但你看，这两个可爱的小家伙。
like, but look at these amazing babies.
自从上次算起，四年、六年，天哪，我双胞胎都四岁了，大儿子六岁了。从那以后，我在镜子里看自己的身体，心态完全不一样了。每年我都觉得，自己慢慢接受了，或者更爱自己了。我一直在努力变得更强，弄清楚什么最适合我的身体，但对自己那份爱，反而越来越深了。
So since the last four, six, oh my god, my twins are four, my oldest is six, since all of that, like it's just, it's been a different conversation in the mirror around my body and it's every year I think that I've kind of come more, either it's to terms or in love and I'm really doing my best to like get stronger and you know, figure out what's right for me and my body, but the love for myself has actually like strengthened.
我只是慢慢接受了，可能再也回不到从前那样了，但那不该成为我衡量自己的标准。
I've just kind of accepted that I don't think it will be that and but that is not that shouldn't be my benchmark.
你的人生阶段已经不一样了。
It's a different time in your life.
对。
Yes.
年龄不同了，你得接受女性身体的自然变化。
It's also different age and you just you have to expect the evolution of a woman's body.
咱们已经不是二十多岁了。
We're not in our 20s.
对，不是了。
No.
确实不是了。
We're not.
没错。
No.
我从我妈身上学到一点，每过十年，身体都会经历不同的阶段。
And that is also something that I've been learning from my mom is that every decade you're gonna go through something different.
所以，好好珍惜现在的自己吧。
And so be really happy with who you are right now.
因为生活总会变，事情会shift，意外也会发生，有些你根本想不到的事，来了又走。
Because things change, things shift, accidents happen, you know, things that are unforeseen will come and go in your life.
关键在于你怎么应对这些变化。
And it's about how you handle it.
你妈妈听起来真是一位了不起的女性。
Your mother sounds like an amazing woman.
她简直就是个传奇，真是幸运。
She really is a rock star, and thank God.
太了不起了。
Incredible.
她和我住在一起，我从她那儿学到了很多。
She lives with me and I get lots of knowledge.
我妈妈也是。
Oh, my mother does as well.
她是最棒的吗？
Is she the best?
这很好，因为她住在
It's the I mean it's great because she lives in a
你丈夫对这件事怎么看？
How does different your husband feel about it?
他也挺喜欢的。
He likes it too.
她帮我们带孩子帮了大忙。
She really helps us a lot with the kids.
我们家的情况是，她就住在后院，这么说吧。
We have, she just like lives in the backyard is how I put it.
她有自己的房子，只是和我们住在一起。
So she has a different roof She over has a her house.
我们是住在一个屋檐下的。
No, we're under the same roof.
是吗？
Oh, are?
我觉得这也没别的选择。
I'm like, there's no choice.
你要么就接受我们全部，要么就谁都不接受。
There's you, I mean, it's like you either get all of us or you get none of us.
一整套防护装备。
Pack of shield.
我想聊聊你职业生涯中两个关键的时刻。
I want to talk about the two pivotal points in your career.
当然，还有那个著名的Lane Bryant电视广告，顺便说一句，我看过好多遍了，当时还觉得：这有什么大不了的？
There was, of course, the Notorious Lane Bryant TV commercial, which, by the way, I saw, I've watched it many times, I was like, what's the big deal?
是啊，是不是挺奇怪的？
Yeah, isn't it weird?
真的，那事儿难道不离谱吗？
It's so, I mean, that, isn't that crazy?
你对这件事怎么看？
How do you feel about it?
有意思的是，Lane Bryant当时就知道自己在做一件真正具有革命性的事，尤其是背后的故事。
So, what's interesting is Lane Bryant knew that they were making something really revolutionary at the time, and especially like the story behind it.
有个女孩要去和她的男朋友或者丈夫吃午饭，结果那顿午饭就是她自己。
There's this girl going to meet her boyfriend or husband, whoever it was, for lunch, but the lunch was her.
对啊。
Right.
还特别诱人。
And delicious.
而且他们也知道，像十二号、十四号、十六号这种码数的女生，以前从没在晚间电视上穿过内衣出现过。
And also they knew that girls that were, you know, size twelve, fourteen, sixteen hadn't really been seen in lingerie on nighttime television like this.
所以我觉得，他们早就预料到电视台会反对。
So I think that they had this idea that there was going to be a pushback from the network.
你们这是在搞什么？
Like, are you guys doing?
结果电视台说：不好意思，这个不能播。
What happened was the network said, sorry, we can't show this.
太露骨了。
This is too risque.
他们直接收下了。
And they took it.
连剪辑都没做。
They didn't even do an edit on it.
莱恩·布赖特拿去后大加宣传，全网铺开了。
Lane Bryant took it and spun it and put it all over SPR.
他们直接把我们给砍了。
Like, they canceled us.
我想他们当时大概就是想，等等，我们能剪一剪吗？
And I think what really happened was they were just like, wait, can we do an edit?
我不太确定。
I don't know.
现在回头看，那段确实被放大了，但好事，因为还是有很多人对那个广告特别反感。
So so looking back on that, I think that there was a moment that was heightened, but for good because there are still so many people that were disgusted with that commercial.
有太多人对丰满女性有偏见，只愿意看到某种特定类型的女性穿内衣，觉得性感就该是那一种样子。
There's so many fatphobic people, so many people that only want to see a certain type of woman that's in lingerie, there's only one idea of sexy.
所以我特别高兴Lane Bryant有这么聪明的应对策略，我觉得他们早料到会这样。
So I'm really glad that Lane Bryant had this great strategy around it because think that they knew that this was going to happen.
但你当时还是个女孩，看到电视台可能直接打压你，心里是什么感觉？
But how did you feel as a young girl that a network would potentially put that down?
玛丽亚，我这个人就是跟别人不太一样。
Maria, I'm just built a little bit different.
我知道这不常见。
I know this is not normal.
但我还记得，当杰·雷诺说想请我上节目时，我立马给爸爸打了电话。
But I remember calling my dad when Jay Leno said, Oh, we'd like to have you on the show.
我对他说：爸，我太兴奋了。
And I said, Dad, I'm so excited.
我就打算晃着我的胸，说：没错，就是这样。
Just gonna shake my boobs and say, That's right.
我就是我。
Here I am.
我爸爸说：‘你别这样。’
And my dad goes, No, you're not.
你不能在杰·雷诺的节目里这么干，艾什莉。
You're not doing that on Jay Leno, Ashley.
我问：‘为什么啊？’
And I was like, Why?
这不就是我在广告里的样子吗？
That's how that's how I was in the commercial.
我想了想，他说得好像也有道理。
And I was like, yeah, I guess he's right.
也许我真该听我爸的。
Maybe I should listen to my dad.
所以我没那么做。
So I didn't do that.
但我玩得特别开心。
But I had so much fun.
我当时整个人都散发着自信。
I've just exuded confidence.
像所有女人一样，我也经历过低谷，有过怀疑自己的时刻，觉得自己身材难看、毫无价值。
Like any woman, I've had my lows and I've had my moments of disbelief and that my body is hideous and that I'm not worth anything.
但在那一刻，不，那一刻是属于我的。
But in that moment, no, that moment was mine.
我真的非常期待那一刻。
I was really excited for it.
你是怎么把那种挫折，不管是心理上的，还是某种让你不舒服的观点，转化成胜利的？
And how how were you able to take a setback like that, whether it's mental, or, you know, an opinion that you didn't feel comfortable with and and turn it around into a victory.
那些让我
The the ones that have kind
在深夜里辗转反侧的事情，就是我在刷短视频时看到了那些评论。
of like eaten at me in the night are when I'm doomscrolling and I read the comments.
那是早期的Instagram时代，现在我不再那样了，现在
Now this is like early Instagram days, like now I don't, like now
你现在还看吗？
it's Do you read them now?
不怎么看。
Not really.
不看了。
No.
我不看了，
I don't,
我只在发一些特别喜欢的东西时才看，想看看大家怎么说。
it's not as, I read them when I'm like posting something I really love and I'm like, I wanna know what they say.
比如我发了JCPenney的系列，我就想看看评论。
Like when I'm posting a JCPenney collection, like I wanna know
我们会收到反馈。
like we'll get feedback.
反馈是什么？
What's feedback.
没错。
Exactly.
或者像露西那样，我特别期待听到大家的反馈，我记得以前总有人议论，说我还不够大，配不上我社区里的一些女性。
Or like, even with Luce, like, I'm like so excited to hear what But people are I remember, like, there was always a conversation of like, how I'm not big enough for certain women in my community.
或者说我不够多元，为什么胖码模特总是只有她一个人？
Or I'm not, you know, there isn't enough variety of plus size models, why is it always just her?
所以当时有很多负面声音，甚至来自我自己的圈子，这些话真的伤到我了，我确实很在意。
And so there was a lot of negativity, even just from my own community, and some of that really did eat at me, and I really did let it get to me.
但我一直都有支持我的人，我一直会回到圣经里找答案，我知道自己是谁。你看看身边围绕你的人，他们会告诉你你是谁，提醒你，你不能让所有负面声音都压垮你。
But I always have, I've always had my people, I've always had the word, I'm like, I'm a big Bible reader, and I always go back to it, I'm like, this is who, I know who I am, and you look around at the people that are around you, and they tell you who you are, and they remind you, and you can't let it all get to you.
说起来容易，做起来难。
It's easier said than done.
感觉确实如此。
I It's feel
顺便说一句，在屏幕后面评论真的太容易了，反正没人知道你是谁，随便评判、发表意见。我和你都经历过这种事，只是在不同层面、不同场合罢了。
also, by the way, so easy to write a comment like behind a screen when no one knows who you to just judge and have an opinion and I mean, I we both like face this on like different levels in different contexts, different arenas.
但比如在新闻发布会上，记者问我问题，输球后表现不好，提些尖锐的问题倒也正常。
But like, when I'd be in a press conference and a journalist is asking me, like, it's fair to have tough questions, especially after you lose and your performance is subpar.
但问题是，他们根本不懂你正在经历什么，就随便下判断。
But it's another way to like opinionate or like not know what you're going through.
我总在想，这位记者有没有女儿？
And I always thought, well, does this journalist does this first of all, does this journalist have a daughter?
如果换成是他的女儿，他还会用同样的语气问出这种问题吗？
And is this journalist going to speak that way and ask their daughter the question that they just asked me?
大多数时候，
And most of the time
你有没有当场回击过？
snap back at them sometimes?
没有。
No.
真的不回？
Oh, you wouldn't?
不会。
No.
你现在也不会？不会。
Would you now No.
哦。
Oh.
不会，绝对不会。
No, no.
为什么？
Why not?
我也在想，为什么呢？
I'm like, why?
不会，因为我很冷静。
No, because I'm calm.
哦，这样啊。
Oh, okay.
这不值得
It's not
对你来说不值得吗？
worth it for you?
这不值得，也不值得我花精力。
It's not worth it, and it's not worth my energy.
我的精力应该留着，当运动员的时候，他们就是这么做的。
My energy should be reserved, and when you're an athlete, that's what they're doing.
他们就是在消耗你的精力。
They're trying to take your energy.
我就是这么想的。
That's what I thought.
等等，我和我自己的想法是，真的吗？
Wait, me and my I'm like, really?
你有女儿吗？
Do you have a daughter?
真的吗？
Really?
我骨子里的布鲁克林人肯定说，走，干吧。
Like the Brooklyn in me would be like, let's go.
好吧。
Okay.
下一次重大事件发生时，你就登上《体育画报》封面了，宝贝。
The next major event that takes place, and you are on the cover of Sports Illustrated, baby.
还是那种让人不敢相信的时刻。
Still pinch me moments.
我想听听那是什么感觉。
I wanna hear what that is like.
你拿到封面时，他们是寄给你吗？
When you receive the cover, did they mail it to you?
是不是
Was it
一个活动？
an event?
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
是现场直播的。
Was on live TV.
当时是这样，尼克·卡农在主持，他们搞了个新方式公布封面人物。
Was like, yeah, Nick Cannon was hosting this whole there was a new way they were revealing the covers.
以前都是让女生上深夜秀，然后突然揭晓，她自己都吓一跳，天哪！
They used to do it where, like, the girl would show up on a late night show, and then and then they would reveal it to her, she's like, oh my god.
但这次是直播，他们就直接带我上台。
But this was live, and they were just, like, shuffling me to the stage.
我当时就说，大家一起去台上吧。
And I was like, oh, let's all go to the stage, guys.
来了。
Here we go.
我完全不知道要发生什么。
Have no idea what's happening.
你当时根本不知道自己有可能上封面吗？
And you didn't know you were you there's potential to be on the cover?
这事儿谁都有可能被选中。
Like, it could have been anyone.
哦，没有。
Oh, no.
没有。
No.
那是我第一次为《体育画报》拍照，当时我还是个新人。
I mean, was my first time shooting for I was rookie for SI.
就连前一年，我还只是在《体育画报》的泳装特辑广告里出现过。
Like, I, even the year before, had been in an ad in Sports Illustrated for Swimsuits four All.
那是他们第一次在《体育画报》上看到我这样身材的女生。
And that was the first time they'd ever seen a girl my size in Sports Illustrated.
我觉得他们是在试探市场反应。
And I think they were kind of like testing the waters.
他们在想，我们的读者真的会喜欢这样的内容吗？
Like, does our customer really want Well,
他们确实试过了。
they tested the waters out.
试得没错。
They sure did.
之后他们就选了我。
And then they had me.
我会一直称赞MJ·戴，直到我去世的那天。
And I think I think, you know, I will praise MJ Day until the day I'm dead.
他是《体育画报》的主编。
That's the editor in chief at SI.
你认识她。
You know her.
她特别懂女孩的心思。
She's so she's such a girl's girl.
她就是真心实意，也特别愿意给年轻人机会。
She's here for she's here to just be real and honest and also give so much opportunity.
她人真的特别好。
She's just lovely.
但我当时就在那儿，幕布一落下，我就看见了隆达。
But, no, I was there and the curtain fell, and I saw Rhonda.
我看见了海莉，然后又看见了自己，心里想：天哪。
I saw Hailey, and then I saw myself, and I thought, holy shit.
这可是封面啊。
This is on the cover.
我当时根本反应不过来。
Like, I couldn't even process it.
那场面太震撼了。
It was wild.
但就是那一刻彻底改变了我的一生，我永远都会感激。
But I that was that's the moment that changed my life forever, and I'll and I'll always be grateful for it.
当时你有没有意识到那有多大的力量？还是后来才明白的？
Was there, like, did you recognize in that moment that that was so powerful or did it take No.
要等一段时间才反应过来。
Ready for time?
你懂的。
You know?
嗯，是这样。
Okay.
没有。
No.
还没。
No.
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以至于卡农都过来了。
To the point that, like, Cannon came over.
他问我：你感觉怎么样？
He's like, how do you feel?
我直接从他手里抢过话筒，说：这下我来接手了，宝贝。
I took the mic out of his hand and I said, I'm taking over, baby.
我当时就是这么有底气。
That's how confident I was
我就知道，这事儿准成。
that I I love knew this it.
当时那场
Was the
在纽约赢得大满贯之后？不，我完全没意识到。
After winning a grand slam in New York, no, I did not recognize at all.
你真没意识到？
You didn't?
不是，就像你那样，但你已经累得情绪崩溃了。
No, like you do, but you're so emotionally exhausted.
而且，可能你们在球场上拼尽了全力，而我完全没那样。
Well, also probably were like working your ass off on You're the court, just so I wasn't.
我当时穿着高跟鞋和小裙子，就在那儿打招呼。
I was in heels and a little dress going like, hey.
嗨。
Hey.
没有。
No.
这情况
This is
不太一样。
a different situation.
对。
Yeah.
但我记得，几周后有个时刻，就我和我最好的朋友，我们在佛罗里达我家里的时候。
But I remember there's this moment, like a couple weeks later where it was just like my best friend and I, and we're at my home in Florida.
那时候我正重新开始训练。
And I was like back training.
她突然转过身来问我：你有没有意识到，你刚刚做了什么？
But she like turned around to me and said, do you like realize what you just like what you did?
有没有那么一个私密的瞬间，只有你自己知道，外界完全没看见，但你心里特别感恩，因为这样的成功真的发生在你身上？
Like was there ever a moment like that an intimate moment that people just the outside world didn't see and you were like just internally grateful that this success happened in your life?
我觉得是我做TED演讲之后，开始有人在路上拦住我，开始有人给我写邮件，说我的话改变了他们的生活。
I think it was when I did my TED Talk and I started getting stopped on the street and I started getting emails written to me about how much I changed somebody's life.
不管对方是什么身材，通常都是女性，也不管她多大年纪、来自哪里、哪个国家，这些都不重要。
And it was, it didn't matter what size this, like usually women, didn't matter what size she was, it didn't matter how old she was, where she came from, what country, none of that.
重要的是，我展现出的那种自信，它自然而然地流露出来，甚至都溢出来了。
It was, you showed up with so much confidence that it exuded, it overflowed from me.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
那都是关于饮食障碍、感情关系、自我价值，还有数不清的信件、评论、拥抱和泪水。
And it was eating disorders, it was relationships, it was self esteem, it was endless amounts of letters and comments and hugs and tears.
然后我就想，天啊，我只是做我自己，拥有这样一个平台。
And then I was like, wow, just me being myself, having a platform
在舞台上。
On a stage.
人们需要的，就是我能坦诚地做自己。
Where I could just be honest is what people needed.
谢谢上帝。
Thank you, God.
谢谢你赐予我这份自信，谢谢你给我这个平台，也求你帮助我继续做真实的自己，因为我再也不想为了任何人去变成别的样子。
Thank you that you gave me that confidence and thank you that you gave me that platform and also like help me just continue to be myself because I don't want to be anything else for anybody else.
那些就是让我铭记的时刻。
So those were the moments
没错，你也意识到了这一点。
Right, for but you also recognize it.
你可不是一觉醒来就站上TED舞台的。
It's not like you woke up and ended up being on a TED stage.
你花了好多年，整整好多年
Were like, you took years and years of
坚持到底，顶着所有不利条件。
perseverance of like, everything against odds.
很多人跟我说，你长得漂亮，就适合当目录模特，别想别的了。
There were so many people that had told me like, you know, you're just, oh, you're pretty, you're just gonna be a catalog model and this is what it is.
我一直想创业，等了又等，这是我最大的遗憾之一——我总在等别人点头。
Like, don't think about building a business, which I really wanted to for so many years and I waited and waited and that was one of my regrets that I waited for people.
有太多人说我不可能登上封面，乖乖待在自己的小圈子里就行。
There's so many people that told me I wasn't gonna be on the covers and just stay in your lane basically.
现在回想起来，我特别感激那些时刻。
I love thinking back to those
俩字：打脸。
two Proving them
你错了，宝贝。
wrong, baby.
有太多人这样说了。
So many of them.
你有保存那些评论吗？
Do save any of those comments or like?
我不保存，因为我从不
I don't save them because I'm not
你呢？
Do you
会把事情记下来，我会写下来。
journal about things I do, like I write stuff down.
我活在当下，总是向前看。
I'm very much like in the moment and like a forward person.
我不纠结过去，我只看未来。
I'm not like a yesterday, I'm a tomorrow.
我喜欢思考接下来会发生什么，有什么新动向。
And I like to think about like what is next and what's happening.
我曾经参加过一次托尼·罗宾斯的活动，他有一句话让我印象深刻：过去六个月或一年里，你做过什么值得为自己鼓掌、却一直没承认的事？
I did go to a Tony Robbins event one time and something that stuck with me that he said was, what's something that you did in the last six months and a year that you can congratulate yourself for that you have not?
我得使劲儿想，因为我是那种特别向前看的人，总想着明天，要我回头想想真不容易。
And I had to think really hard because I'm such a forward, I'm such a tomorrow person, that it took a lot for me.
当我回过头去一看，才发现——
When I went back, was like,
哇，我
wow, I
其实那一年真的做了不少事。
really did whatever it was at that year.
然后我就对自己说：干得漂亮。
And I was like, congratulations.
所以现在，不管是我自己还是和团队一起，只要做成一件事，我就会说：咱们干成了，来庆祝一下。
So now what I try to do, whether it's by myself or with my team, I say, we did that, let's toast.
咱们就来庆祝一下，开车的时候大家一起碰杯，或者出去的时候完全放松一下，
Let's do, let's do sort of celebration, it's in the car and we just all toast or we're out and we're 100%,
事情发生得太快了，得提前好好规划才行。
plan a gorgeous Everything happens so quickly.
这真的很重要。
It's really important.
我们总是从一件事直接跳到下一件事。
We're always like, from one to the next.
这真的很重要。
It's really important.
没错。
Yeah
尤其是有孩子的时候，工作上刚做完一件大事，转头就得去收拾一堆臭烘烘的尿布。
and especially with kids it's like you finish one great thing at work and all of a sudden your responsibility is like you know cleaning up a shitty diaper.
天哪，
Girl,
我可太懂了，而且我刚养了一条狗，这就更添乱了。
don't I know it and I just got a dog so there's that.
这真是个傻决定。
Well, was a silly decision.
我
I
说实话，我也不清楚。
mean, I don't know.
有人跟你说过这话吗？
Has anyone said that to you?
有些人啊，我听他们问过，为什么？
You know, some people, I've heard, Why?
为什么你要养狗？
Why did you get a dog?
我就想，既然已经这么乱了，再加条狗又何妨？
I'm like, just to add to the chaos, why not?
三个孩子加一只狗。
Three kids and a dog.
咱们聊聊身材焦虑吧，自从你进入这个行业，这方面有什么变化吗？
Let's Let's talk about body image and how it's changed since you entered the industry.
是变好了吗？
Like, has it changed for the positives?
还是说，像奥兹empic这类GLP-1药物的流行，让情况变得更糟了？
Or when we think about the influence of GLP-1s, like Ozempic, has it changed for the negative?
以你这样一直站在身材议题前沿的人来看，你怎么看？
In your opinion, as someone that's been at the forefront of body image.
我觉得正面的变化确实挺大的，我的意思是，咱们想想，比如现在
I think there's been a major progression in the positive since I mean, we're talking about, okay, if
如果非要从最开始说起，阿什莉上了《体育画报》，我觉得确实有进步，当然我不是说只有我一个人在做这件事，任何改变都离不开一群人的推动，对吧？
we just wanna go like ground zero, Ashley's on Sports Illustrated, I think that there has been, and I'm not saying that I'm the only one that has done this, I think that everything that changes in the world has to have a community behind it, right?
得有人一起干才行。
There has to be manpower.
我觉得这真正打开了话题，让大家开始讨论什么是美，什么才是理想身材之类的。
And I think what it did was it really opened up the door for conversation around like what is beautiful and what is considered this ideal body or whatever.
也让女性更有底气去表达自己，向品牌发声：我想看到像我这样的人。
And it opened up even for women to feel better about themselves to say, to call out to brands and say, I want to see me.
我们曾经经历过很长一段时间这样的变化。
And I think we had a lot of years like that.
但现在有了GLP-1类药物，我在自己的生意里也看到了变化，比如在JCPenney，某些尺码的销量明显下滑了，因为这些药物影响了大码市场的需求。
And now with the GLP-1s, I've even seen it in my businesses where there are certain sizes, even at JCPenney, that aren't selling as much because GLP-1s are such are taking a hit even in the larger sizes.
但依然有一群人在这里，对吧？
But there still is a community there, right?
如果我们真正去审视整体的变化，就会发现，我们这个圈子里关于身体的正面讨论确实多了起来，而这很重要。
And I think that if we really look at the overall of like what has changed, there has been more conversation about bodies in a positive way within our community that that has mattered.
外界呢，人人都爱议论：你这样、你那样。
Outside world, everybody wants to talk about, oh, you're this, oh, you're that.
你总能听到那些负面评价，不管是社交媒体上，还是那些写你该是什么身材的文章里，全都是。
You want to hear all those negative comments, you know, through social media or articles written about, you know, what size you should be, all whatever.
那都是杂音和干扰。
That is noise and static.
社区里发生的变化是，它扩大了，翻了一倍，甚至涨了三倍，这对我来说才真正重要。
What's happening in the community is it has grown, it has doubled, it has tripled, and that to me matters way more.
现在有这么多大码网红和内容创作者，简直多得不可思议。
The amount of plus size influencers and content creators there are now is out of this world.
就是你。
Of you.
谢谢你。
Thank you.
对。
Yes.
有那么多这样的女孩，我特别喜欢。
And there's so many of those girlies that I just love.
因为她们正在为下一代的女孩们带来巨大的改变。
And it's because they're making such a difference for the girls of the next generation.
这一切的关键在于你为谁而做，而不是为自己，因为我们根本不需要为自己。
And that's this is all about who you're doing it for, not for a self, And self we don't have
去道歉。
the need to apologize for
不，他们长什么样
No, what they look
但我觉得
like but I
整体是积极的。
think it's been for the positive.
我觉得任何事情都难免有负面的声音。
I think that there are negativities around everything.
有正面也有负面，我的意思是，咱们聊聊
There's positive and negative around I mean, wanna talk
人工智能吧。
to you about AI.
哦，是啊。
Oh, oh yeah.
就像你担心AI会抢走我们的工作时。
Like when you think of Coming for our jobs.
我想跟你聊聊这个。
Well, I want to talk to you about it.
说真的，我都不确定自己算什么职业，不过大概是个播客主持人吧？
Don't even know what my job is, by the way, but I was like, like a podcaster?
我觉得是的。
You know, I think so.
等聊完了你告诉我。
Well, you'll tell me when we're done.
进展还不错。
It's going pretty well.
不过，当你想到现在的模型产业和AI的发展趋势时，你预测会怎样？
But what do you like when you think about the business of modeling as it is today and the evolution of AI, what is your prediction?
我觉得人们还是渴望真实的互动和面对面的交流，AI没法夺走我们身体里那份情感的连接。
I think that there is still going to be this desire for real interaction and a real conversation, and I don't think AI can take the emotional business away from our bodies.
作为一名丰满身材的女性在时尚界露面，这本身就是一份充满情感的工作。
Being a curvy woman in the public eye in fashion means that this is a very emotional business.
我每天都在和女性们进行充满情感的对话。
And I'm having emotional conversations with women on a day to day basis.
这些事，AI做不了。
And AI can't do that.
AI没法给你一个拥抱，然后说：你值得被爱。
AI can't give you a hug and say like, you're worth it.
但我相信，整个模特行业都会受到巨大冲击。
But I think that there's going to be a big hit to the modeling industry as a whole.
我真的觉得这迟早会发生，因为用AI更便宜、更方便，而且——
I really do think that that's gonna happen, and I think it's just, it's cheaper, it's easier, and
你有没有亲眼见过这样的情况发生？
Are you seeing, is there an instance where you saw it happen?
比如某个品牌用了AI模特，而那个位置本来可能是你的，
Like a brand chose an AI model and perhaps it was a position that you could have had or
没有，没人用AI取代过你的工作，
No, nobody's, nobody's, no AI has shaken my that Shaken your job.
我知道有人做过跟我一模一样的AI形象，结果都被发了停止函。
I know I've seen AIs made in my likeness, and they've gotten a cease and desist.
是的。
Yep.
我本来也没指望你会有别的说法，
I didn't expect
对你来说，这没什么意外的，
anything different from you,
本节目由Odoo赞助播出。经营企业已经够难了，何必再用十几个互不相通的软件让自己更累呢？
Support for this show comes from Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
现在推出Odoo。
Introducing Odoo.
这是你这辈子唯一需要的商业软件。
It's the only business software you'll ever need.
它是一个一体化的完整平台，能让你的工作轻松很多。
It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
客户管理、财务、库存、电商，还有更多功能。
CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.
最棒的是什么？
And the best part?
Odoo 用不到几分之一的价格，就取代了多个昂贵的系统。
Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
所以才有成千上万的企业选择了它。
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
那你为什么还不试试？
So why not you?
去 odoo.com 免费体验 Odoo 吧。
Try Odoo for free at odoo.com.
这就是 odoo.com。
That's odoo.com.
经营企业已经够难了，干嘛还用一堆互不相通的软件让自己更累？
Support for this show comes from Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?
推出 Odoo。
Introducing Odoo.
这是你这辈子唯一需要的商业软件。
It's the only business software you'll ever need.
这是一个一体化、完全整合的平台，能让您的工作更轻松。
It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier.
客户关系管理、财务、库存、电子商务，还有更多功能。
CRM, accounting, inventory, ecommerce, and more.
最棒的是什么？
And the best part?
Odoo 以不到十分之一的价格，取代了多个昂贵的系统。
ODOO replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost.
所以才有成千上万的企业选择了切换到它。
That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch.
那你呢？
So why not you?
去 odoo.com 免费试用 ODDO 吧。
Try ODDO for free at odoo.com.
那就是 odoo.com。
That's odoo.com.
咱们来聊聊身体形象吧。
Let's talk about body image.
你的身体已经变了。
Your body has changed.
它在不断成长。
It's evolved.
我是说，作为女性，我们的身体从来就不是一成不变的。
I mean, we talk as women, like our perhaps our bodies are never the same.
你该怎么面对别人对你身体变化的看法呢？
How do you, like, juggle, like, the perception of this is what my body looked like?
生完孩子之后，怎么接受这就是我身体的最终样子？
And after having kids, just accepting this is what my body will be like.
这很难吗？
Is that hard
确实很难，我等到32岁才生，这并不算晚。
Yes, for it's been really hard for I waited till I was 32, which is not old.
那时候我已经结婚九年了，我们就在想：到底要不要孩子？
It was just for me, I was already married for nine years, and then we were like, we gonna do it?
要不要呢？
Are we not gonna do it?
然后事情就顺其自然地发生了。
And then it just happened.
我很庆幸自己等到了那时候，既有事业基础，也更成熟了。
And I'm glad I waited to do it, to have my career, and also maturity.
我就是觉得自己更有底气了。
I just feel like I had more self assurance.
我还选择了写作，比如2020年我生了艾萨克。
I also picked to write, like I had Isaac in 2020.
那时候一切都停摆了。
It was like everything was shut down.
那你当时是怎么度过孕期的？
Went to What did you do then like go through pregnancy?
我就想，行吧，那就这样吧。
I literally, I just was like, well, here we go.
我们就干脆在家休产假，这机会我以前想都不敢想。
We're just gonna sit around and have the maternity leave I never could have asked for.
但紧接着，不到两年又生了双胞胎，这确实对我的身体造成了不小的影响。
But with that, and then having the twins literally less than two years later, I mean, did a number on my body for sure.
我妈妈当时没说，后来才告诉我，她说：‘你那时候看起来总是特别不舒服。’
My mom didn't tell me in the moment, but she told me after, she was like, Oh, you just always looked so uncomfortable.
我
I
你的妈妈听起来那么积极，这么说真是有意思。
mean, coming from your mother, who sounds so positive.
是啊。
I know.
是啊。
I know.
她说我走路一摇一摆的，坐下都特别费劲。
But she was like, The way you waddled, and just like how you'd have to sit down.
这正是当妈的该做的事。
Mean That's what mothers are for.
她们从不骗人。
They're honest.
确实如此。
They are.
你一直很坦诚地谈论产后经历，还有身体的变化。
You've been very open about postpartum, about what your body's going through.
你是怎么感觉的？
Like, how do you feel?
是想分享什么，还是有些事宁愿保留？
Like, it a feeling of what you want to share and not share?
还是你就觉得，这就是我。
Or you're just like, this is me.
这就是我的真实感受。
This is how I feel.
不是的，产后我就干脆全都说出来了。
No, postpartum, I of let it all out.
天啊，我第一次怀孕胖了60磅，怀双胞胎时可能胖了80磅。
I mean, gosh, I gained 60 pounds in my first pregnancy, I gained probably 80 with the twins.
中间那段时间我也没怎么减下来，毕竟赶上疫情，就随它去了。
I don't think I even lost much of it in between because it was COVID and it was just like, whatever.
那真是够折腾的。
Oh, it was a lot.
挺有意思的是，怀孕时我吃不了多少，还以为自己状态特别好，心想其他女生是不是哪里做错了，我简直太舒服了。
It was funny, during pregnancy I couldn't eat much, so I felt like I was in such great shape and I was like, I don't know what the other girls are doing wrong, but I'm feeling so good.
别吃那么多。
No, don't eat as much.
等等，生完孩子我就停不下来了，老想吃。
Hold on, and then I gave birth and I was like, I can't stop eating.
哦，你是说
Oh, were
你在母乳喂养吗？
you breastfeeding?
是啊，喂了六个月，我那时候怎么都吃不饱，怀孕时的身体状态比现在好太多了，等等，这又是一个
Yeah, for six months, I was like, I can't stop eating, my body was so much better during pregnancy than it is now, wait, this is another
再怀孕的理由，玛丽亚！
reason to get pregnant, Maria!
不，但我觉得，如果我们不承认每个人心里都有这样的对话，那才真是傻了。我们谁不是在想，怎么对自己再温柔一点，怎么变得更好呢？我内心也有个运动员，一直在说：你得再强一点。
No, but I think that we'd be foolish to not admit that we all have these conversations in our head, and that we're not all thinking about how can we be nicer to ourselves, how can we be better, There is this internal athlete in me too that's constantly saying, You gotta get stronger.
活得长久才重要。
Longevity matters.
我想能陪着孙子孙女一起玩。
I wanna be able to play with my grandkids.
这就像我举铁到极限的时候。
And that's kind of like when I'm lifting weights and I go to my max.
我真正想的，就是这个。
That's what I'm really thinking about.
听到一个女人坐在我对面，坦坦荡荡地说出这些，真的让人耳目一新。
It's so refreshing to hear a woman sit across me and say like, this is what it is.
我的意思是，当你身心都快被掏空的时候，你靠什么撑下去？
I mean, are there things that you you lean on when you're just you're so physically and mentally drained?
规律，对我来说就是规律、睡眠、饮食，还有规律。
Routine, routine for me, sleep, diet, and routine.
我不需要每天都做同样的事，但我希望一天中能有几段属于自己的时间，可以自己做主。
And I don't need to do the same thing every day, but I need to know that I have blocks of time throughout the day that are mine, and I can make a choice.
有时候我觉得自己把一切都安排得特别完美，可我这人本来就是随性型的，突然就只想说：算了，不干了，真烦。
Sometimes when I feel like I've mapped everything out so perfectly, I'm such a type b person that I just wanna be like, poof, no, ew, I can't.
所以我就是想知道自己有那么一点灵活的空间，想干嘛就干嘛。
So I just like to know that, like, this is my wiggle room of time, and I can do as I please.
不管是看书、冥想、写日记、锻炼，还是陪孩子玩，都行。
And whether that's, like, reading, meditation, journaling, workout, kid time.
我最近跟两个儿子搞了个新玩法，每周带其中一个出去约会，就咱俩母子俩的专属时间，他们可喜欢了。
I've been doing a new thing with the boys where I've been, each week I take one of them out on a date, a mommy son date, and they really are so into it too.
真好，你们都去哪儿？
Love Where do you go?
当然是他们说了算。
Well, get to choose.
他们选谁？
Who do they choose?
是的。
Yes.
所以我大儿子选了游戏厅。
So my oldest, he picked the arcade.
哦。
Oh.
我知道，他想进游戏厅，虽然不能玩枪战类的，但可以开赛车，玩吃豆人之类的。
I know, he wanted to go to the arcade, which he's not allowed to do any of the guns, but he can do the cars and we can do Pac Man and stuff.
然后他还想吃塔可饼，再喝个巴西莓碗。
And then he wanted to go get tacos and acai bowls.
这安排真不错。
Okay, that's great.
这真是个很棒的约会，对吧？
That's Such a great date, right?
对啊。
Yeah.
接下来另一个孩子说，他也想玩这个。
Well, then the next one said, Oh, he wanted to do that too.
结果他们特别喜欢，简直每周得去三次。
And then they like it so much, you just have to do it three days a week.
没错，就是这样。
Exactly, exactly.
每周都会有一个男孩轮到这个安排。
Well, each week there's a boy that gets it.
我没法一周内全安排完。
I can't do them all in one week.
这太夸张了。
That's insane.
因为我还得和我老公约会呢。
Because I also am dating my husband.
哦，因为你还要上班，所以
Oh, because you have a job and
你有丈夫？
you have a husband?
是的，我和丈夫每周也会安排一次约会之夜。
Yes, and my husband and I do date night once a week too.
这是强制的吗？
Is that mandatory?
确实是强制的。
It's mandatory.
明白了。
Okay.
为了维持婚姻，这可是必须的。
And it's mandatory to keep the marriage to stay.
你说了算。
You tell me.
我的意思是，这正是你为什么能坚持这么久的原因
I mean, that's why How you're many
你们结婚多久了？
years have you guys been married?
哦，我们还没结婚。
Oh, we're not married.
哦，你不是。
Oh, you're No.
我们是，我知道。
We're Oh, I know.
太惊人了。
Scandalous.
哇哦。
Woah.
别一直说个不停了。
Stop relentless over
在这儿。
here.
我知道。
I know.
我们有个孩子，但没结婚。
We have a kid and we're not married.
你们一起住，我猜是？
And you live together with your I
你知道这话题要往哪儿走吗？
know where is this going?
你们是
Are you
打算结婚吗？
gonna get married?
我们以前结过。
We have, we were.
好吧。
Okay.
然后我们就有了孩子。
And then we had a kid.
等等。
Oh, wait.
对。
Yeah.
然后生活就这么继续下去了。
And then just like life goes on.
等等，所以你现在不打算办婚礼吗？
Wait, so you're not planning the wedding right now?
不，我对婚礼没兴趣，我不是那种喜欢婚礼的人。
No, I'm not like a wedding, I'm not a wedding girl.
我也不是。
I wasn't either.
不是。
No.
婚礼是贾斯汀操办的。
Justin planned our wedding.
好的，你们请了多少人？
Okay, how many people did you have?
90个。
90.
哦，这个人数对我来说刚刚好。
Oh, that's, you see that would be a perfect number for me.
其实我觉得50个人就挺合适了。
Mean actually like 50.
是的。
Yeah.
但我老公那边，你知道的，他最要好的朋友就有五百个。
But my husband's, you know, he, like his closest friends is like 500.
天哪。
Oh no.
是的。
Yeah.
不，不，不。
No, no, no.
那他就来操办吧。
Then he gets to plan it.
我跟贾斯汀说，你要是真想结婚，就别搞那些花架子，干脆咱俩去泰国，就我们两个人，在海滩上，简单说几句誓言就行。但他坚持说，不，我真的很想要一场正式的婚礼。
That's what I told Justin, I said, look, if you wanna get married, like for real, like have a real wedding and not go to like, yeah, well I was actually thinking like Thailand, just go to Thailand, he and I, but just he and I, you know, like on the beach, like just saying something to each other, but he's like, no, I really want the wedding.
所以我跟他说，那你来安排吧，我就负责出现。
So I said, you get to plan it, and I just showed up.
我去挑了婚纱。
I went and I bought my dress.
你来操办，你来掏钱，我到时候到场就行。
You plan it, you pay for it, and I'll show up.
好。
Okay.
我们换个话题吧。
Let's transition.
我们刚才说到哪儿了？
Where were we?
咱们聊聊百老汇吧。
Let's talk about Broadway.
对啊。
Oh, yeah.
你是百老汇出道的。
I mean, you made your debut in Broadway.
这一直是你的梦想。
It was a dream of yours.
是的。
Yes.
你真的做到了。
You made it happen.
是我做到了。
I did.
它真的上了百老汇的舞台。
It came
上了百老汇。
into Broadway.
是我做到了。
I did.
我让这一切成了真。
Made it happen.
这到底是怎么发生的？
How does that happen?
天哪。
Oh my god.
直到现在我还是不敢相信，他们居然答应了我。
I am still shocked that they said yes to me.
我就实话实说吧，我从来没唱过歌，从来没跳过舞，也从来没演过戏。
Let's just be, I'm not, I have never sang, I have never danced, and I have never acted in my life.
我是模特出身，本来以为这种事会自然而然地找上门，但这次完全超出了我的想象。
I mean, acting, mean, like, I'm a model and then you just kinda get filtered into it, but this was out of the box completely for me.
我之所以敢把这个想法提给这位经纪人，是因为当时在巴黎和乔丹·罗斯一起吃晚饭，他可是百老汇的头号人物。
The reason I even, like, presented this idea to this agent was because I was having dinner in Paris with Jordan Roth, who is literally the guy in Broadway.
他是那种顶尖中的顶尖。
Like he is the creme de la creme.
你要是没关注他的Instagram，那你真错过了人生中重要的戏剧时刻。
He, like, if you don't follow him on Instagram, you're missing out on a theatrical moment of your life.
他对我说：‘你就是阿什莉·格雷厄姆。’
And he was like, You are Ashley Graham.
你完全能上百老汇。
You can do Broadway.
他给了我信心，让我终于下定决心，往前走一步。
And he gave me the confidence that I didn't have to say, Okay, I'm gonna move forward with this.
所以他给我介绍了一位很棒的声乐教练，莉兹·卡普兰。
So he gave me a great singing coach, Liz Kaplan.
她简直太棒了。
She's fucking fabulous.
天哪。
Wow.
如果我想提升一下K歌水平，就找她。
If I wanna improve my karaoke game, do it.
就是她。
Her.
明白了。
Okay.
她真的很厉害。
She's amazing.
我可没指望自己能上百老汇，但
My ass is not She getting on Broadway, but
她把我自己都没意识到的潜力给激发出来了，我知道它在那儿，但没想到它真能释放出来。
pulled something out of me that I didn't I knew it was there, but I didn't know it was able to come out.
后来我就开始和芝加哥现在的Roxy合作了。
And then I actually started working with the current Roxy in Chicago.
她叫Dylee。
Her name is Dylee.
她叫Dyleece。
Her name is Dyleece.
她也特别厉害。
She's amazing too.
所以我那三个月一直在Dyleece和Liz之间来回切换，两边同时练。
So we So I was doing this double whammy of like Dyleece and Liz and going back and forth for three months.
你是在接受训练？
You were training?
为了试镜。
For the audition.
什么？
What?
对。
Yes.
你根本不知道自己有这个角色？
You didn't even know you had the part?
不知道。
No.
我当时想，我就不去了，别去丢人现眼。
I was like, I'm not going in and I'm not making a fool of myself.
只要我说要做一件事，而且给了机会，我就会全力以赴。
When I say I wanna do something and I'm given an opportunity, I'm gonna go all in.
我参加了第一次试镜。
I had my first audition.
他们说，不错。
They were like, great.
我们知道该重点改进哪里。
We know what we need to work on.
去练一下独白吧，那是我唯一没碰过的部分。
Go work on the monologue, which was the one thing I didn't work on.
我根本没动过它。
I hadn't touched it.
我回去花了两周时间专门练独白，再回去面试时，见到了从剧目开播就一直负责的制片人，他当场就决定录用我。
Went back for two weeks, worked on my monologue, came back, was in front of the producer who's owned it since it started, and boom, he offered me the job on the spot.
我简直不敢相信。
And I couldn't believe
然后你就没法拒绝了。
And then you couldn't say no.
我当然没拒绝，根本没说不。
I couldn't, no, didn't say no.
我哭了，心里想着：太好了，我太兴奋了。
Cried and I was like, yes, I'm so excited.
最疯狂的是，就在那场试镜前，我在洗手间准备，紧张得手心直冒汗。
The craziest thing was right before that audition, I was in the bathroom getting ready and like kind of, know, Shitting your hands.
没错。
Exactly.
布鲁克·雪德丝走了进来。
Brooke Shields walks in.
她问我：‘艾什莉，你怎么在这儿？’
And she's like, Ashley, what are you doing here?
然后她又说：‘等等，你是在试演罗克西·哈特吗？’
And she's like, Wait, are you trying out for Roxy Hart?
我看到门外贴着的海报了。
I saw it on the door outside.
我当时都傻了。
Was like, speechless.
她说：‘你知道我当年演过罗克西吧？’
She's like, You know I was Roxy, right?
我就跟自己说，给我点罗克西的能量。
And I was like, Give me Roxy energy.
所以 audition 一结束我就立刻给她打了电话。
So I called her right after.
我跟她说，你能有这份成就，也是我拿到这个角色的原因之一。
I was like, you're part of the reason I got this.
真的非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
她就像是我人生路上的一盏明灯。
Like, she was such like a like a north star for me.
那感觉实在太棒了。
It was like so amazing.
但这段经历真是跌宕起伏。
But it was what a whirlwind experience.
我觉得这背后其实有个更深层的道理，对听我们这期节目的人来说：哪怕是个梦想，你也得脚踏实地去努力，才能把它变成现实。
I feel like there's like a bigger lesson, like, for the listeners of this episode where, like, it could be a dream, but you you have to work and grind to get better at a dream and make it a reality.
对于那些因为受挫而想要放弃梦想、不敢冒险的年轻女孩，你会对她们说什么？
Like for for young girls that are discouraged to keep going after their dream or to take chances, what would you say to them?
你不能光嘴上说想要什么，然后窝在沙发上等着它自己发生。
You can't ask for something and then sit on the couch and expect it just to happen.
不行，你必须付出努力。
You can't, you have to work hard.
你看你在球场上，你不可能一边说我想拿四个大满贯，一边却连一次都没打出来。
I mean, look at you on the court, you couldn't have said, oh, I want to go and do, you know, have my four grand Slams and not have had one.
是五个，姑娘。
Five, girl.
五个。
Five.
对不起，是五个。
Five, sorry.
五个！
Five!
五个大满贯！
Five Grand Slams!
那是Roxy！
There's Roxy!
真的假的！
Seriously!
我喜欢这个。
I love it.
这正是我想要的。
That's what I want.
但你想想你付出了多少努力。
But that but but like, look at how hard you worked.
我觉得新一代的人以为，你看到社交媒体上有人一夜爆红，或者突然就成功了，就以为这一切是凭空发生的。
And I think that there is this idea from this next generation that you, you know, you see something happen so quickly on social media, or you see something just pop out of nowhere with their big career, and you think it just happens.
但事实根本不是这样。
And it's not how it works.
我是说，我做模特已经二十八年了，到现在还在拼命干。
I mean, I have been modeling, I've been doing this for twenty eight years, and I still I'm grinding.
我依然在坚持。
I'm still
每一天都是如此。
Every day.
没错，这事儿永远不会结束。
Yes, it doesn't end.
所以说，不管做什么，都需要付出大量努力，但更重要的是得有热情。
So it's really, I mean, everything takes a lot of hard work, but it has to also take passion.
你得真的对它充满热情。
You have to be really excited about it.
因为如果你没热情，迟早会耗尽的。
Because if you're not excited about it, you're gonna get burnt out.
所以
So
太棒了。
great.
你以前经历过倦怠吗？
Have you had burnout before?
我的倦怠和伤病有关。
So my burnout was associated with injuries.
因为康复的过程对心理的消耗，比什么都大。
Because dealing and going through rehab of an injury more taxing on the mind than anything.
眼看着别人都在训练、比赛、不断进步，而你却只能努力让身体恢复到能重新上场的程度。
And while knowing that everyone else is competing and playing and getting better, and all you're doing is just getting your body, like stable enough to go out and compete.
你会失去很多东西——力量、心理状态，全都会下滑。
So you lose so much, like you just, you lose your strength, you lose your mental capacity.
伤得越多，积累的压力就越大，真的让人撑不住。
And like the more you get injured, it just it adds up and it's just tell.
我真没法想象。
Yeah, I can't imagine.
而且这在身体上
And it's physically
确实特别耗身体。
so It's physically brutal.
咱们聊聊葡萄酒吧？
Can we talk about wine?
那当然。
Duh.
好吧，先说说来龙去脉。
Okay, so like a backstory on this.
几个月前，我们通过一次通话联系上，因为我的业务经理寄给我一瓶网上买不到的葡萄酒。
A few months ago, we connect on a call because my business manager sends me a random bottle of wine that I couldn't find online.
对。
Right.
因为那款酒还没上市。
Because it wasn't out yet.
我就在想，这是什么酒？
And I'm like, what is this?
他说，首先呢，
He's like, well, it first.
把它放进冰箱。
Put it in the fridge.
放一整晚。
The Put it Overnight.
第二天我跟我妈打开瓶盖，一起喝。
I pop open the bottle the next day with my mom and we're drinking it.
她也问，这是什么酒？
And she's like, what is this?
我说，我真不知道。
I was like, I actually have no idea.
我特别喜欢这一点。
I love that.
我不知道是谁做的。
I don't know who made it.
我真的不知道。
I don't know.
网上查不到任何关于它的信息。
I can't find anything about it online.
我们开始喝，结果特别喜欢。
And we start drinking it and we love it.
天哪。
Oh, my God.
于是我打电话给我的投资经理，问他这到底是什么东西。
So I call my investment manager and I was like, I what is this?
他给我讲了这段背景，说这是艾什莉·格雷厄姆新创办的生意。
And he gives me a backstory on how this is Ashley Graham's new business.
我当时就说，明天一定要帮我约艾什莉·格雷厄姆通话。
I was like, get me a call with Ashley Graham tomorrow.
天哪。
Oh my gosh.
我当时就想，我真的为你感到骄傲，看到你从起步到现在，真正穿上企业家的外套，太不容易了。
And I'm like, first of I'm so proud of you, like to see this journey of from where you started to now, like putting your business hat on.
谢谢。
Thank you.
这跟走秀不一样，这是损益表，是这些枯燥的东西。
And this is not modeling, this is this is P and L, this stuff is not sexy.
对，没错。
No, no.
当创始人根本谈不上酷。
Being a founder is not sexy.
打拼的方式完全不一样。
The grind is different.
打拼的方式真的不一样，快跟我说说细节。
The grind is different, tell me everything.
我从来不算什么葡萄酒行家，但对各种吃的喝的，我一向特别愿意尝试新东西。
I would say that I've never been like a wine connoisseur, but I've always been really adventurous with any kind of food and drinks.
我总想看看有什么新鲜玩意儿。
I always wanna try what's happening, what's new.
十年前我第一次喝过兰布鲁斯科，从那以后就一直记在心里。
And I remember having Lambrusco about ten years ago, and it was always stayed in my roster.
我一直很喜欢，但一直没找到一款能让我在本地酒铺随时买得到的，要么太甜了，你知道的。
I always loved it, but could never find one that stuck with me that like I could go to my local wine store and always find, or it was always maybe a little too sweet, you know
或者太贵了。
Or a little too expensive.
天啊，我正想说呢，这酒怎么卖到六十块？
Oh my god, I was literally about to say, or it was like why is this $60
没错。
Right.
当时我和合伙人一起在洛杉矶的Bestia餐厅，他跟我说：‘咱们俩都在这儿喝兰布鲁斯科，既然这么喜欢，为啥不自己做一款？’
So I was with my business partner and he said to me, if we're both here at, we were in Bestia in LA, he's like, if we're both here drinking Lambrusco, because this is the one that we like here, he said, why don't we just make our own?
我当时就想，这酿酒公司到底该怎么开啊？
And I was like, well, how the hell do you make a wine company?
我们俩都特别喜欢那么几款兰布鲁斯科。
We knew a couple of of Lambruscos that we loved.
于是我们就查了它们是哪里产的，后来在Instagram上找到了，直接给他们发了私信。
So we looked up where they were made, and I found them on Instagram, and I DM'd them.
我跟他们说，嗨。
And I said, hey.
我超爱你们的酒。
Love your wine.
要不要跟我一起做个酒？
Would you like to make a wine with me?
你意思是
What do you
他们以为我们是要做兰布鲁斯科。
think they a Lambrusco.
因为我真的喜欢
Because I love I
我能想象他们那边肯定觉得她就是想白拿东西，毕竟每个明星都这样。
can just imagine they're on the other side thinking she just wants free shit because that's what every celebrity does.
喂。
Hey.
这是我的地址。
Here's my address.
我喜欢
I like,
我就想试试看。
I just I want to try it.
想跟朋友们一起分享。
Like, want to share it with my friends.
如果我喜欢，我就会发帖推荐。
And if I like it, I'll post about it.
嗯，
Well,
就那一款，不是随便哪款，是我特别喜欢的那一款。
one hit, but not just one specifically, one that I really love.
而且他是第五代酿酒师。
And it's a fifth generation winemaker.
他根本不知道我是谁，但他妈妈认识我。
And he didn't know who I was, but his mother did.
他说：‘我妈妈超喜欢你。’
And he was like, oh, my mama loves you.
我发私信的时候还故意带点口音。
I'm doing an accent over DM.
对吧？
Right?
好吧。
Okay.
我读的时候带着口音。
I'm reading it in an accent.
于是我和我的商业伙伴丹尼飞到了艾米利亚-罗马涅见他，第一口兰布鲁斯科葡萄就让我们一见钟情，因为那里有无限可能。
And so Danny and I flew, my business partner Danny and I flew to Amelia Romagna to meet him, and it was love at first Lambrusco grape because there was the opportunity to really felt endless there.
我们和他们紧密合作，专门打造了Luce这款酒。
And they worked so we worked so, like, closely with them in really building out Luce specifically.
因为兰布鲁斯科这种葡萄很容易酿出甜味，而我一点都不想要太多糖分。
Because Limbusco can get sweet really easily just based off of like the type of grape it is, and I really didn't want a lot of sugar in it.
它的糖分含量偏低。
It is on the lower side of sugar.
它的酒精度和糖分都控制得低，这些对我来说都很重要。
It's on the lower side of ABB, and these things really matter to me.
现在人们喝酒少了，但喝得更讲究了，这对我打造酒类品牌来说很关键。
As people are drinking less, it's important as I'm building an alcohol brand to understand that, but they're also drinking smarter.
我希望这种‘讲究’体现在低糖和低酒精上。
And I want the smarter to be in the low sugar and the lower alcohol.
我是说，聊聊你创业的事吧，毕竟这跟你之前参与的合作项目完全不一样。
I mean, talk to me about going into business, because that's like, that's an entirely, I know that you've been part of ventures you've collaborated.
不过这次真的是我第一个亲手带大的项目。
This is my first baby though.
你之前确实做过不少合作。
Mean, you've done collaborations.
你很清楚怎么把工作里的创意部分和商业结合起来。
So you have a great understanding of how to mix the creative aspect of your job to business.
但当你真正拥有一个品牌时，责任就完全不同了。
But when you own something, there's an entirely new responsibility.
是什么让你觉得，现在是你职业生涯里最适合做这件事的时机？
What made it feel like this was the right time in your career?
其实我脑子里一直有个问题：我到底能拥有什么？
Well, there's always been this question in my head of what do I own?
什么才是真正属于我的东西？
What is really mine?
就像你说的，我之前做过很多授权合作，也把自己的名字授权给了不少优秀公司。
And I've had, like you said, lots of licensing deals and I've lended my name to a lot of amazing companies.
但这次的机会感觉不一样，因为它完全不跟潮流，也不符合主流审美，可这真是我的热情所在。
But this opportunity felt different because it is so out of fashion and out of beauty in general, but it's really a passion.
这东西是我和我丈夫多年以来一直喝的，后来我们推出了Luce，我家人早就喝着了，他们总问：这什么时候上市？现在终于来了。
It's like something that my husband and I have been drinking for years together, and once we made Luce, mean, in my family was drinking it, When is this coming And is, it is.
当一款产品真的好到让人无法否认的时候，你就知道你手里握着好东西了——这可是花了三年时间才做成的。
And it's like when the product is so good and you just can't, it's undeniable, then you know you've got something good on your And this is a three year process.
我真的
I really
是的，我想让它
wanted Yeah, to it's
你刚推出，但其实你已经为此努力了
like you just launched it, but you've been working on
没错，我一定要确保我们手里的产品足够出色。
this Yes, I wanted to make sure that we had a really great product in our hands.
但对我来说，我不是那种擅长数字的人。
But I think for me, I'm not a numbers girl.
我不会去算账、做审计那些事儿。
I'm not gonna go in and do the calculations and the audits and things.
这些事都是Danny帮我打理的。
Danny is really that for me.
他是管数字的，而我负责对外的那部分。
Like he's the numbers guy and I'll be the forward facing gal.
我早年在做生意时就明白一件事：不会做的事，就请专业的人来做。
But something that I learned early on in my business career is something you don't know how to do, hire someone for it.
找一个懂行的人来接手。
Bring somebody in that knows how to.
让别人成为你的另一半。
Like, let there be another half of you.
你不用什么事都亲力亲为。
You don't have to do everything by yourself.
不，你也不需要什么都知道。
No, and you don't have to know everything.
没错。
You don't.
对。
No.
我也不是什么都知道。
And I don't know everything.
对。
No.
我知道的是，我对Luce充满热情，热衷于打造这个品牌，也特别想建立围绕它的社群。
What I know is that I'm passionate about Luce, I'm passionate about building this business, and I'm really passionate about building just like the community around it.
因为当人们喝Luce的时候，那是一种相聚。
Because when people drink Luce, it's a coming together.
这是一种庆祝。
It's a celebration.
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