格雷格·弗莱明 - 洛克菲勒资本管理

这关乎你在洛克菲勒全球家族办公室服务的客户，以及你与公司其他部门洛克菲勒资本管理同事展现的合作精神与团队意识。

It's about the clients that you're working with within Rockefeller Global Family Office, the collaboration, collegiality that you exhibit to Rockefeller Capital Management colleagues elsewhere in the firm.

因此在构建这家投资银行时，所有这些因素都与找到优秀投资银行家同等重要。

So in building that investment bank, all of those things were as important as finding great investment bankers.

并且愿意在周末工作。

And being willing to work weekends.

在投资银行业务中，这是你必须做的。

In the investment banking business, that's what you gotta do.

虽然不是每个周末，但周末已经够多了。

Not all weekends, but there are enough weekends.

请再详细说说，保持你的银行家视角，因为这非常有趣。

So tell us again, keeping your banker hat on because this is so fascinating.

请谈谈目前财富管理领域可用的各种扩张资本类型，显然私募股权约占90%的资金来源，但还有家族基金、主权财富基金以及债务融资。

Tell us about the different flavors of expansion capital that are out there and available to folks in the wealth management space because there's obviously, PE is probably about 90% of the fuel out there, but there's also families, sovereigns, and obviously debt.

作为银行家，你认为这些不同形式资本的优缺点是什么？

As a banker, what do you think the pros and cons of these different forms of capital are?

正如我所说，我们对维京作为创始股东和持续大股东非常满意。

We as I said, we've been quite happy with with Viking as our founding equity partner and continuing majority owner.

我们去年通过他们在加拿大的实体IGM引入了德马雷家族，他们现在持有我们公司20.5%的股份。

We brought in the Demarets last year through one of their entities in Canada, IGM, and they now own 20 and a half percent of our firm.

乔，我们是这样考虑的——针对你关于不同资本池的问题，我们现在有两个家族股东。

And the way we think about that, Joe, is that we now have two families, to your question about different pools of capital.

我们有德马雷家族和洛克菲勒家族，因为洛克菲勒也持有我们公司的部分股份。

We have the Demarets and we have the Rockefellers, because the Rockefellers own a piece of our company as well.

我们很欣赏这点，因为他们理解长期投资。

And we like that because they understand long term investing.

他们理解我们在这里提供的建议的本质。

They understand the nature of the advice that we're providing here.

所以我们很满意，而且我认识德马雷家族很久了。

So we were happy, and I've known the Demarets a long time.

我知道他们认同我们正在创建的这类公司。

So I knew that they they believed in the type of firm we were creating.

我们拥有共同的价值观。

We have shared values.

德马雷家族通过加拿大鲍尔集团，现已传承至第二代。

The Demarets, through Power Corp of Canada, are on their second generation.

老保罗·德马雷创立了这家公司。

Paul Demarets senior started the company.

他已离世，如今他的两个儿子小保罗和安德烈执掌着鲍尔集团。

He's no longer in the world, and his two of his sons, Paul Junior and Andre, run the power world today.

在我最初负责机构业务后来担任总裁时，小保罗曾是我们美林国际咨询委员会的成员。

Paul Junior was on our international advisory board at Merrill when I was first running the institutional business and then president.

过去十年里我与安德烈相知甚深，他们都非常出色。

And Andre, I've gotten to know really well in the last ten years, and they're terrific.

他们认同我们的事业理念和建设方式，是长期投资者。

And they believe in what we're doing here and how we're building it, and they're long term investors.

我们青睐这样的家族。

So we families like that.

虽然并非所有家族都如此，但我们对德马雷家族和洛克菲勒家族非常满意。

That's not gonna be every family, but we're quite pleased with the Demareys and the Rockefellers.

除此之外，我们与维京集团的合作也很愉快。

The beyond that, we've clearly been happy with Viking.

你遗漏了一个类别——基于我们早前讨论的原因，这些公司仍具有巨大的战略投资价值。

One category you left out, there's still a tremendous amount of strategic interest in these companies because of what we talked about earlier.

财富管理是金融服务业增长最快的领域之一，若能做好，就能通过有机增长获得高倍数和高估值。

Wealth management's one of the fastest growing spaces in financial services, and if you do well there, you can capture a lot of that in your own organic growth generating a high multiple and a high valuation.

因此仍有许多战略投资者对这个业务感兴趣。

So there are lot of strategics that are still interested in the business.

近十多年来，财富管理领域的并购活动一直非常活跃。

So merger activity has been robust in wealth management for almost over a decade.

我认为过去两年大约有300笔交易。

I think there was something like 300 transactions in the last two years.

长期来看，当前支付的高倍数合理吗？

Can the multiples that are being paid be justified long term?

就像你刚才提到的，很多资金都在私募领域，所以最终必须有个退出机制。

Like you just mentioned, a lot of this money is in PE, so there has to be an exit at some point.

高估值倍数与增长密不可分。

High multiples are tied inextricably to growth.

如果你能通过打造优秀企业和成功模式实现有机增长，那么我认为高倍数是合理的。

And if you can grow organically because you've built a great company with a winning model, then I think they're justified.

从宏观层面看，这个领域非常优质，所以整体估值倍数都很高。

The space is such a good space on a macro level that the multiples are high across the board.

虽然会随周期波动，整个领域的规模也会变化，但在我看来，增长才是估值的关键。

Some of that goes up and down with the cycle, the magnitude of the overall space, but growth is for me and and from a valuation perspective, growth is the key.

这就是为什么我们要花这么多时间讨论增长问题。

And that's why we spend so much time here talking about growth.

如果你有家高速成长的公司，优秀人才都会想加入。

If you have a growth company, great people wanna go work there.

员工会有更多发展机会和施展空间。

There's opportunities for people to do more, to do other things.

这对客户关系来说是极好的。

It's a wonderful to have with your clients.

你们在提供建议方面做得很好，所以客户会委托更多资金，或推荐新客户给你们。

You're doing a really good job providing them advice so they give you more money to take care of, or you get a new client or you they recommend you somewhere.

因此估值与整个领域的吸引力挂钩，而乔，这种吸引力不会改变。

So the valuation is tied to the attractiveness of the overall space, which, Joe, isn't going to change.

就客户群体而言，我们讨论的是高净值和超高净值人群。

On the for the client base, we're talking about high net worth and ultra high net worth.

在美国，这类人群将会越来越多。

In The United States, you're gonna have more and more of these people.

全球范围内这类人群正不断增长，而我们这个品牌名称在世界各地都能很好地传播。

You have more and more of these people around the world, and we've got this name that would carry very well everywhere else in the world.

这个领域前景广阔，这种趋势不会改变。

So the space is a great space, and that's not gonna change.

真正能实现高水平有机增长的成功企业，其高估值态势将持续保持。

And the really successful companies that are able to achieve high levels of organic growth are gonna be continue to be highly valued.

优秀的顾问团队，是面包还是鱼子酱？（注：俚语，指基础配置还是高端配置）

Great advisers, bread or baw?

我认为优秀的顾问应该经验丰富，长期服务于高净值与超高净值客户群体。

What I would say is great advisers are experienced and have been working with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients for a long time.

因此我们正在招募业内顶尖顾问，他们都拥有服务此类客户及家族的丰富经验。

So we're hiring the best advisers in the industry who have a lot of experience working with those types of clients and families.

我们称他们为精英顾问，他们确实以精英标准开展工作。

We call them elite advisers, and they really do operate that way.

我们不是那种供人学习如何接触高净值客户的培训机构，也不是那种只服务过个别高净值客户就指望发展更多类似客户的组织。

This is not an organization where you wanna come and you wanna learn to start to work with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients, or where you've got one such client and you're hoping someday to have more.

我们认为优秀顾问应当具备丰富经验，懂得如何调动全套专业工具并充分发挥其价值。

We think great advisers are those who have the experience, understand how to bring the full toolkit, to leverage the full toolkit.

要记住，顾问加入我们之前，可能长期只为客户家族提供投资方面的服务。

Because remember, when the adviser comes here, they might have been working with the family historically more just on the investment side.

但我们现在已构建了顾问可调用的全方位服务体系。

But we've built all these capabilities that the adviser can leverage now.

我们通过顾问高效整合所有服务能力。

And we bring all the capabilities to bear efficiently through the adviser.

因此客户家族希望继续由长期合作的顾问担任主要对接人。

So the family, the client, they wanna see the adviser they've been working with for a long time on point.

但那位顾问可以运用金融教育、慈善咨询、我们世界一流的财富策略团队，以及资产管理团队——如果他们想将这些资源用于固定收益、小盘股或其他我们已建立强大能力的领域。

But that adviser can leverage financial education, philanthropic advisory, our wealth strategies group, which is world class, our asset management team, if they want to utilize them for fixed income or small cap or some of the areas that we've really built great capabilities.

他们希望与我们的投资银行家合作。

They wanna work with our investment bankers.

我们通过首席顾问协调这一切，但我们寻找的是曾与我们目标客户群体——高净值与超高净值人群、复杂家庭（那些面临多重复杂性的家族）——合作过的顾问。这些客户正因如此，能从我们构建的所有独特资源中获益，而这些资源坦白说在许多竞争对手那里并不存在。

We coordinate that all through the lead adviser, but we're looking for advisers that have worked with clients that are our target client base, high net worth and ultra high net worth, complexity, families that have a lot of complexity, and that can benefit, because of that, from all the different resources that we've built that they can now draw in here that frankly don't exist in a lot of the competitors.

回顾你的职业生涯，投行人才与财富管理者的领导特质是否存在差异？

So looking back over your career, is there a difference in the leadership qualities of investment banking talent versus wealth managers?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

我认为归根结底，成功的领导者都具备许多共同特质，无论是在财富管理、投行、科技还是政府领域。

I think in the final analysis, successful leaders share a lot of the same characteristics, both in wealth management and investment banking, in technology, in government.

我在职业生涯中花费大量时间担任领导职务，对于领导者该如何组建优秀团队并每日激励他们朝着共同使命前进，我有清晰的见解。

And I I've spent a lot of time now in leadership in my career, and I have clear views on the things that are important for a leader to do to get a great team in place and galvanize them behind a common mission every day.

这就是为什么我们如此强调企业文化。

That's why we talk so much about culture here.

在创立洛克菲勒资本管理公司前，我曾任职于三家企业。

I I had worked at three firms before we started Rockefeller Capital Management.

乔，当我来到这里时，我决心要打造一个我一直向往的工作文化环境。

I was determined, Joe, when we came when I came here, to create a firm with the culture that I had always wanted to work within.

我们强调在每项工作中追求卓越。

We talk about excellence in everything that we do here.

我们1350名员工都多次听过我最喜欢引用文斯·隆巴迪的话——这位著名橄榄球教练可能借鉴或转述了亚里士多德关于卓越的论述。

One of my favorite quotations that all 1,350 people would have heard many times is Vince Lombardi, the famous football coach, who's probably been reading or paraphrasing Aristotle on excellence.

隆巴迪说：‘完美虽不可及，但若我们追逐完美，或能抓住卓越。’

But Lombardi said, quote, perfection is not attainable, but if we chase it, we might just catch excellence.

这里的每个人都全力以赴追求卓越。

People work really hard here to do a great job.

我们力求在与客户合作的每个环节都追求卓越。

We want excellence in every aspect of how we're trying to work with our clients.

若有所失，我们会迅速调整方向，力求修正并重回正轨。

If we miss it, we pivot and we wanna fix it and go back.

因此我们以卓越为起点。

So we start with excellence.

但我们不希望追求卓越、辛勤工作和高标准会牺牲积极的工作环境。

But we didn't want the focus on excellence and the hard work and the high bar here to not come with a positive working environment.

所以我们强调协作与同事情谊。

So we talk about collaboration and collegiality.

我们希望员工走出电梯时，是真心想来办公室工作。

We want employees and people to get off the elevator and want to be in the office.

他们渴望与世界顶尖人才共事。

They want to work with other world class people.

这是个充满活力的地方。

It's an upbeat place.

有句名言我整个职业生涯都在反驳——尽管某些领域的领导者并不认同——

One of the quotations that I have worked to disavow my whole career, and there are people who don't agree with this, who are in leadership in different places.

棒球经理里奥·德罗谢尔那句著名的'好人都垫底'。

But Leo Derocher, the baseball manager, famously said, quote, nice guys finish last.

我为2024年更新了这句话，我的女儿们很赞同，大家都该如此——

I update that for 2024, my daughters are happy about and everybody should be.

我说优秀的男女都能夺冠，这是我深信不疑的。

And I say nice men and women can finish first, and I really believe that.

而这正是我们这里所践行的。

And that's what we have here.

但我也告诫子女、团队里的年轻人，当他们向我寻求建议时：若你选择这种处世之道，就必须早起勤奋，方能致胜。

But I also tell my children, our team here, young people when they ask me for advice, if that's what the approach you're going to have, then you wanna get up early and work hard so that you can win.

因为你想要一个协作、友好、愉快的工作环境。

Because you wanna have a collaborative, collegial, nice working environment.

但如果仅此而已，你在企业环境中将无法长久立足。

But if that's all you have, you're not gonna be around in a corporate context for very long.

你还必须具备卓越的能力，并设定高标准。

You've gotta have the excellence as well, and you've gotta have that high bar.

你必须拥有追求目标的动力和坚韧。

You've gotta have the drive and the tenacity to go after that.

我们将这些要素融合在此，这得益于我创办这家公司之前二十八年的职业生涯积累。

We've put that together here, and this is a function of the prior twenty eight years of my career before I started this.

员工薪酬是财富管理预算的重要组成部分。

So staff compensation is a a large part of wealth management budgets.

你认为在提供全套服务的同时，是否有办法提高运营效率？

Do you think there's a way to increase operational efficiencies while still offering this full suite of services?

你可以经营一家高效的企业。

You can run an efficient business.

在业务增长过程中，你可以扩大利润空间，同时照顾好团队。

You can have, as you're growing, expanding margins, and you can take care of your team.

你需要强大的技术支持来实现这一点。

You need to have great technology to do that.

2024年，解答你问题的关键要素之一就是先进技术。

In 2024, one of the keys to your question is great technology.

我们拥有由马克·亚历山大领导的世界级技术团队，他曾在美林为我们管理技术部门。

We have a world class technology team led by Mark Alexander who ran technology for us at Merrill.

我担任总裁期间，他是整个公司的技术与运营负责人。

When I was president, he was head of technology and operations for the whole firm.

在美国银行收购后他继续留任多年，大约三年前我把他请到了这里。

He stayed on after Bank of America bought it for a number of years, and I brought him over about three years ago here.

我们在新泽西州汉密尔顿拥有一支主要由优秀技术专家和运营团队组成的队伍。

We have a team in Hamilton, New Jersey primarily of great technologists, operations team.

他们与公司内部的业务人员紧密合作，乔，致力于横向连接。

They work closely back to horizontal connectivity, Joe, across the firm with the business people.

他们不会闭门造车地设计系统。

They don't design systems in a vacuum.

他们与顾问、客户助理及客户共同设计系统，这才是应有的工作方式。

They design systems with the advisers, with the client associates, and with the clients And this is how it should look.

这才是关键所在。

This is what's important.

因此，若能将技术渗透到业务各个环节，你就能照顾好团队、实现收入增长，同时在这个过程中扩大利润率。

So if you have technology imbued across your business, you can take care of your team, grow top line, and also expand your margins as you're doing that.

2024年的技术是实现这一目标的关键。

The technology in 2024 is the key to that.

自您接手以来，这家公司实现了迅猛发展。

This firm has grown dramatically since you've taken over.

我很好奇从管理者的视角看出去是怎样的景象。

I'm curious what the view from the bridge is like.

你们的整体战略是否有所调整？

Has your overall strategy changed a bit?

我们的战略与2018年3月1日创立公司时的布局完全一致。

Our strategy is really consistent with what we had in place when we started the firm on 03/01/2018.

其实早在2017年，当我们研究Rock and Co并构建财务模型预测与Viking的合作前景时，就对将要建立的业务形态及其长期发展有了清晰认知，至今我们仍保持着这种一致性。

But even before that, in 2017, when we were looking at Rock and Co and working on models on how things would play out financially with Viking, we're quite consistent with what we thought upfront in terms of the business that we would build and how it would look over time.

我们带着丰富的财富管理经验而来，并准备在此建立相应的能力体系。

We had a lot of experience coming into this with wealth management, with the set of capabilities we'd be putting in place here.

对于如何实现目标，我们有着非常清晰的愿景。

We had a pretty clear vision as to how we wanted to do this.

这并不意味着我们没有在多个领域做出调整。

That doesn't mean we didn't pivot in a whole bunch of places.

如果你不这么做，那本身就是个挑战。

If you don't do that, that's its own challenge.

但我们正沿着最初确定的轨迹前进。

But we're on a trajectory that we we identified up front.

而从增长角度来看，乔，这个战略重点就是美国市场。

And that focus, Joe, from a growth standpoint was on The United States.

我们希望以洛克菲勒之名，在全美各大财富中心建立业务版图——这个目标我们已经实现了。

We wanted to take the name Rockefeller and build it out across all the major wealth centers in The US, and we've done that.

我们现在覆盖约30个财富中心，设有50个办事处。

We're in about 30 wealth centers now, 50 offices.

最初我们只有3个办事处。

We started with three offices.

这就是战略核心：在主要财富中心建立据点，配备顶尖顾问，充分利用我们打造的所有能力优势。

So that was really the core of the strategy, which was to put a footprint in place in these major wealth centers with elite advisers, leveraging all the capabilities I talked about us having built.

这是我们最初的愿景。

That was our original vision.

因此自公司创立以来，我们一直在执行该计划，这个规划已实施了七八年。

So we've been executing on that since we started the firm, but that plan was has been in place now for seven or eight years.

但规模化是否存在弊端？

Are there any drawbacks to scale, though?

发展到某个阶段确实会有。

At some point, yes.

我们采用高触达的客户服务模式，并构建了横向连接网络。

We have a high touch model for clients and across this whole horizontal connectivity.

因此财富策略团队需要与各地私人顾问紧密合作，团队成员必须陪同顾问实地拜访全国各地的客户。

So our wealth strategies team works closely with our private advisers on many clients, but that team needs to be out visiting those clients with the advisers across the country.

如果企业持续无限扩张，员工规模达到数万人，客户数量以百万计，我们现有的战略将很难有效实施。

If you just keep growing indefinitely and and you're talking tens of thousands of employees and millions of clients, it's very hard to utilize the strategy that we have in place.

因此创业初期，我们就讨论过要在这些财富中心及城市进行布局。

So when we started, we talked about building out in in these wealth centers and and cities.

我们刚刚制定了一个新的目标，在此首次向大家公布。

We just put in place a a new target, fresh for you here.

自2018年3月1日收购Rock and Co并创立洛克菲勒资本管理公司以来，我们的管理资产从180亿美元起步。

We we grew from 18,000,000,000 in assets in 03/01/2018 when we bought Rock and Co and created Rockefeller Capital Management.

经过六年半的发展，目前资产规模已突破1400亿美元，我们相信到2030年有望超过4000亿美元。

We've grown to north of 140,000,000,000 today in six and a half years, and we believe we can be over 400,000,000,000 in assets by 2030.

这一目标将延续创业至今的成功模式：在各财富中心围绕私人顾问建立规模效应，通过顾问向客户高效提供全方位服务，实现有机增长。

That's with the same formula that we've had in place since we started, which is building scale in each of these wealth centers around the private adviser and then growing organically with this comprehensive suite of capabilities delivered efficiently through the adviser to the client.

这增速确实惊人。

That's huge growth.

期间完成了多少并购？

How many acquisitions is that?

我们已在各财富中心引进了约140支团队。

We've brought in approximately a 140 teams across those different wealth centers.

团队入驻后就会产生内生增长。

That growth is also organic once the team is here.

有些团队加入五六年以来，管理的客户资产已增长至最初的三倍——比如我们最早引进的那批团队。

So we have some teams that have tripled their client assets since we brought them on five or six years ago when we brought our first teams on.

实现了三倍增幅。

Tripled their client assets.

这就是内生性增长。

So that's organic growth.

还有大量团队实现了客户资产翻倍。

We have a whole bunch of teams that have doubled their client assets.

因此这种对增长的关注，并非单纯为了增长而增长。

So this focus on growth and, it's not growth just for growth's sake.

这种增长能让客户获益最多，因为我们出色地完成了工作，使客户更信任我们或推荐新客户给我们。

It's growth where the client benefits the most because we're doing a great job for the client who trusts us with more or they recommend us to a new client.

他们会告诉镇上的另一个家族，洛克菲勒家，说那些人真的很棒。

They say to another family in town, Rockefeller, those people are really good.

他们人也很好。

They're also nice.

你应该雇佣他们。

You should hire them.

很多增长是非有机的，就像我们说的，来自团队带着业务资源加入，然后在此基础上实现有机增长。

The a lot of that growth is inorganic, as we say, from bringing the teams over with the book of business they bring, but then organic on top of that.

所以我想我对历史很感兴趣。

So I guess I'm I'm interested in the history.

自从你在摩根士丹利工作以来，你对人员配置模式的思考是如何演变的？

How's your thinking about staffing models evolved since your time at Morgan Stanley?

摩根士丹利采用的是另一种模式，美林和其他大公司也是如此。

Morgan Stanley is a it's a different model as as is Merrill Lynch, any of the big firms.

这是一种规模化模式。

It's a scaled model.

他们服务于数百万客户，覆盖广泛的财富等级，而我们只专注于高净值和超高净值人群。

They're serving millions of clients across a very broad number of different client wealth categories, whereas we're high net worth and ultra high net worth only.

大公司都有服务于这个领域的顾问。

The big firms all have advisers that work in that space.

这只是整体业务中较小的一部分。

That's just a smaller part of the overall business.

所以我们的策略就是专注于服务这类客户。

So our strategy is to stay right with this set of clients.

我们对拓展不同客户群体不感兴趣，也不打算提供我在私人顾问背后向您描述的全面服务。

We're not interested in broadening to different client segments and to deliver the comprehensive services that I've described to you in behind the private adviser.

这在规模化运营中很难实现，因为许多顾问并不服务于高净值或超高净值客户。

That's hard to build in a scaled operation because there are many advisers that aren't working with high net worth or ultra high net worth clients.

你必须确保为这些客户打造的能力不会被他们所用。

You have to make sure that the capabilities that you build for those clients aren't utilized by them.

这是完全不同的模式。

It's a different model.

我们的模式因其专注性，能确保我们构建的所有内容都旨在支持这些顾问服务高净值和超高净值客户。

Our model, because its focus, enables us to ensure that everything that we built here is to support these advisers in serving high net worth and ultra high net worth clients.

当只聚焦单一客户类型时，模式会清晰得多，不像大型机构需要面对分布各地的各类客户。

It's a lot cleaner when it's just the singular client focus as opposed to big scale firms that have many different kinds of clients in many different places.

您对财富管理中另类投资配置比例上升的趋势有何看法？

Do you have any thoughts on the idea of rising allocations to alts in wealth management?

这是可持续的长期趋势吗？

Is this a sustainable long term trend?

针对我们服务的客户群体？

For the clients that we work with?

毫无疑问。

Absolutely.

事实上，我们认为在洛克菲勒资本管理公司，客户会将财富中越来越高的比例配置于私募投资——包括各类独家直投和仅限洛克菲勒客户的另类投资。

And in fact, we think there will be here at Rockefeller Capital Management, our clients will have a higher and higher percentage of allocation of their wealth to private investments, alternatives of of all different kinds, including direct investments and alternative investments that are exclusive to Rockefeller.

我们与众多另类投资供应商洽谈，专门寻找符合客户需求且具有排他性的投资机会。

We talk to a lot of alternative providers, and we're looking for investments that fit our clients' needs that are exclusive to us and our clients.

我们设立了由克里斯·柯克领导的投资产品解决方案组，他是我司刚从威灵顿聘请的合伙人。

So we have a investment product and solutions group led by Chris Kirk, who's somebody I we recently hired from Wellington.

他在威灵顿担任合伙人已有二十年之久。

He spent the last twenty years at Wellington as a partner there.

九十年代末期，他曾在美林银行的金融机构组与我共事。

He worked with me in the financial institutions group at Merrill in the late nineties.

他想举家搬到波士顿，我们一直保持着联系。

He wanted to move to Boston with his family, and we kept in touch.

我刚把他请回来，现在他负责为我们推进这项工作。

And I just brought him back, and he's now running that effort for us.

这是项非常重要的工作，因为我们不仅要持续开发新客户，现有客户也将在开放式架构背景下继续开展另类投资。

That's a very important effort because not only are we going to continue to bring on new clients, but many of our clients will continue to do alternative investments in an open architecture context.

因此我们将选用最优秀的合作机构，他们能提供最优质的产品，通常是我们客户在各类另类投资领域的独家资源。

So we'll be using the best firms we can find, who bring the best product, often exclusive to our clients across the spectrum of alternative categories.

什么

What's

ESG领域目前发展如何？

the state of play in the ESG space?

ESG嘛...我的孩子及其朋友都属于千禧一代和Z世代。

ESG I I have millennials and generation z as my children are and their friends are.

我们相信ESG投资将成为特定投资者群体——尤其是年轻投资者——的长期需求。

We believe that ESG investing is here to stay for a subset of investors, in particular, the younger investors.

我认为在他们整个生命周期中，不会随着年龄增长和阅历丰富就放弃这种理念。

And I don't think over the course of my life, I don't think that they get older and they're seasoned and they age out of that.

或许我们这代人——至少我这个婴儿潮世代——年轻时相信的某些观念，随着年龄增长就逐渐淡忘了。

There might have been some things that our generation, at least mine, Joe, the baby boomers, that they might have thought when they were younger, and then they got older and it went away.

但观察千禧一代和Z世代，我认为ESG理念不会消退。

I don't think this is going away when I look at millennials and generation z.

所以我们希望在该领域建立强大的服务能力——事实上我们已经做到了。

So we wanna have a robust set of capabilities there, and we do.

也有些投资者对此兴趣不大，更关注其他领域。我们的职责是根据客户需求，以他们期望的方式管理资产并提供财富建议。

There are investors who are less interested in that and more interested in something else, and our job is to manage money in a way advise clients on their wealth in a way that they're looking for the advice.

多年来，你为许多华尔街巨头管理资金并与他们密切合作。

You've managed money for many Wall Street titans over the years and worked with them closely.

你认为这些知名投资者中有很多人也会亲自管理个人财务吗？

Do you think a lot of these notable investors manage their own personal finance as well?

我认为很少有杰出的高管和创始人会亲自管理自己的资金和财富，因为他们把大部分时间都投入到所领导或创立的企业建设中。

I think very few noteworthy executives and founders manage their own money and their own wealth because they put so much of their time into building the business that they lead or have founded.

这正是我们为众多CEO、创始人和企业家提供专业建议的原因之一——他们全身心投入事业，兼顾个人生活，自然在投资上花费的时间较少。

And that's one of the reasons that we provide the advice we do to so many different CEOs and founders and entrepreneurs because they're a 100% in on the business, and then they've got their personal life, and they spend less time on their investments.

随着他们年龄增长，如何分散资产、利用赠与及税务规则等问题，我们会花大量时间与他们探讨这些。

And as they start to get older, how to diversify and how to take advantage of gifting and tax rules and things like that, we spend a lot of time with them on that.

我常说，我们设立精品投行洛克菲勒全球投资银行的原因之一，就是要为通过经营企业积累财富的美国家族提供咨询服务——他们中许多人至今仍持有企业。

I like to say one of the reasons why, we have a boutique investment bank, Rockefeller Global Investment Banking, is because we wanna be able to provide advice and counsel to the many American families that make their wealth through owning a business, and many of them still own the business.

因此我们希望能在企业经营方面给予建议。

So we wanna be able to give them advice on the business.

是否应该出售？

Should they sell?

是否应该上市？

Should they go public?

是否应该收购其他企业？

Should they buy somebody?

是否应该维持现状？

Should they keep doing what they're doing?

无论他们寻求什么，我们都希望提供最佳建议。

Whatever they're looking for, we wanna provide the best advice.

这些家族在持续经营企业的同时，也需要投资、税务和规划方面的专业指导。

And they're going to continue to run that business, and those families need investment and tax and planning advice as well.

真正在创造事业的人往往专注于他们的创造，那才是他们宇宙的中心。

People who are really creating something in life tend to focus on that creation, and that's really the center of their universe.

这真是太有趣了，我忘了问我的背景问题。

This has been so fascinating, and I forgot to ask my background questions.

你最初是什么时候对金融产生兴趣的？

When did you first develop an interest in finance?

让我从头给你讲讲。

I'll go a little bit farther back for you.

我的家庭非常重视教育。

My family really emphasized education.

我会回答你的问题的。

I'm gonna get to your question.

我的祖父，也就是我父亲的父亲，我从未见过他，他也不认识我——他在我父亲两岁时就去世了。他只读到二年级，后来在缅因州一个小镇工作，生活条件并不轻松。

My father's father, my grandfather, who I didn't know and he didn't know, he died when my father was two, graduated from the second grade and went to work in Maine in a small town, not not easy circumstances.

所以我父亲是他们家族第一个上大学的人。

So my father was the first one to go to college in his family.

我的父母都是教师，所以他们很重视教育。

My parents were both teachers, so they emphasized education.

大学时我在科尔盖特读本科，在那里遇到了我的妻子。

In college, I was an undergraduate at Colgate where I met my wife.

我喜欢解决问题，喜欢处理复杂情况，也喜欢经济学，包括宏观经济学。

I enjoyed problem solving, and I enjoyed complexity, and I enjoyed economics, including macro.

这让我在法学院毕业后进入了管理咨询行业。

And that led me to management consulting after law school.

我是在耶鲁读的法学院。

I was at law school at Yale.

然后

And

但你并不想当律师。

But you didn't wanna become a lawyer.

这是因为我喜欢管理咨询这个概念，当我发现它的时候。

That's because I like this whole notion when I found out about management consulting.

这就是为什么我一直追溯到大学时期。

That's why I was taking it all the way back and back to college.

当我了解管理咨询时，我觉得我会非常享受这份工作，事实确实如此，因为它就是解决问题。

And when I found out about management consulting, thought I I would really enjoy that, and I did because it is problem solving.

客户来了说，请就这个问题给我们建议。

The client comes in and they say, give us advice on this problem.

我热爱这一点。

And I love that.

在不同行业间实践很有趣，正如我所说，还包括不同地域。

And it was fun to do it across different industries, and as I said, different geographies.

这让我思考，我想继续从事解决复杂问题的工作。

So that led me to think, I wanna stay with problem solving and and complexity.

但我确实对提供建议感到沮丧，最终报告被高管束之高阁，他们说非常感谢博思艾伦，但我要走不同方向。

But I got I did get frustrated with giving the advice and having it be a book that the executive put on the shelf and said, thank you very much, Booz Allen and Hamilton, but I'm gonna go in a different direction.

所以在四年半后，我想进入管理层。

So after four and a half years of that, I wanted to get into the management side.

我接到了美林证券猎头的电话。

I got a call from a head enter on Merrill Lynch.

我去了，因为这是个进入管理运营侧的机会，而且这是家伟大的美国公司。

I went because it was an opportunity to be on the management operating side, and it was a great American company.

不是因为它是金融行业。

It wasn't because it was finance.

也可能是科技行业。

It could have been technology.

我在博思艾伦与各种类型的公司合作过。

And I've worked with a lot of different kinds of companies at Booz Allen and Hamilton.

其实我并不是主动选择金融行业的。

So I didn't really pick finance.

我只是喜欢解决问题。

I liked problem solving.

我热爱复杂的事物。

I liked complexity.

我确实喜欢宏观经济学，至今依然如此。

I did like macroeconomics, and I still do today.

我和我们的国际业务主席罗希尔·夏尔马共事非常愉快。

And I have a lot of fun with we have Roshir Sharma, who's our chairman of international.

我们与首席投资官吉米·常一起共度时光。

We spent it in Jimmy Chang, our CIOs.

花了大量时间研究不同地区的宏观经济形势对比。

Tremendous amount of time on macro and what's happening here versus there.

但我选择美林证券是因为可以在管理层担任领导职位，这是一家伟大的美国公司，而非因为它是金融企业。

But I went to Merrill because I would be able to operate and be in the leadership on the management side, and it was a great American company, not because it was finance.

后来我在那里发展顺利，事业自然就展开了。

And then I things went well there, and it took on a life of its own.

但乔，这完全可能是另一个故事。

But it easily, Joe, could have been a different story.

我经常这样告诉年轻人——首先总体而言，现在的年轻人实在太优秀了。

I tell that to young people today because young people first of all, on on balance, you so many impressive young people today.

每当听到有人抱怨千禧一代或Z世代时，我就感到沮丧，因为他们明明非常出色。

I get frustrated when I hear people complain about generation the millennials or generation z, because I think they're so impressive.

他们正以积极的方式改变世界，并且全力以赴。

They're trying to change the world in a positive way, and they're all in.

有时看到大学生简历上的经历，甚至比我年轻时朋友们的经历还要丰富，这让我感到惊叹。

And I'm amazed sometimes at the things I see on resumes of college students relative to even my friends and I growing up.

我曾是个送报童。

I was the paper boy.

我洗过盘子。

I washed dishes.

我在杂货店工作过。

I was working at a grocery store.

有些人声称自己大学一年级后就能给哈佛教授提建议。

You have people saying they're providing advice to some professor at Harvard after freshman year of college.

年轻人做的许多事情都令人印象深刻。

There's lots of things that young people do that are so impressive.

但他们总是以非常严肃的态度前来，然后我会问：接下来会发生什么？

But they'll so they'll come in a very serious way, and and they'll I'll say, so what happens next?

他们会告诉我：我要做这个，做那个，做这个，还有那个。

And they'll tell me, I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do this, and I'm this, and I'm gonna do this.

我对他们说：虽然不确定这条路上会发生什么，但我有件事可以确信地告诉你。

And I say to them, I'm not sure what's gonna happen along that path, but I have one thing to tell you I'm confident of.

事情绝不会像那样发展。

It's not gonna be like that.

因为我毕业于耶鲁法学院，却去做了管理咨询。

Because I was at Yale Law School, and I went to be a management consultant.

在1988年，这是个奇怪的转变。

In 1988, that was an odd shift.

那年头很少有人这么做。

Very few people were doing that in 1988.

当我出现在博思艾伦公司时，他们都很惊讶：这儿来了个律师？

When I showed up at Booz Allen and Hamilton, they were like, there's a lawyer here?

当时这些公司里没几个律师。

There weren't a lot of lawyers at any of those firms.

总有人因为我是律师就质疑我是否会数学，这让我很沮丧，因为我数学一直很好。

I've I had people wondering if I could do math because I was a lawyer, which I found frustrating because I was always good in math.

但那是个不寻常的转折点。

But that was an unusual pivot.

后来我去了美林，不是因为它是金融公司，而是因为那是个管理的机会，让我开始参与运营。

And then I went to Merrill, not because it was a finance company, but because it was an opportunity to manage and to start being part of that, operate.

所以人生中有各种无法预见的转折点，我经常给年轻人这样的建议。

So there's all sorts of pivots in life that nobody sees ex ante, and I provide that advice to to young people all the time.

你从没想过自己最终会在耶鲁教书吧？

You never thought you were gonna end up teaching at Yale, did you?

确实没有。

I didn't.

关于这个我有个故事，不管你是否要把它放进播客里。

I have a story on on on that for you, whether you wanna include it in the podcast or not.

那是在2008年我们刚把美林卖给美国银行后，我去参加第二十届同学会。

But I was there for my twentieth reunion in 2008 after we had sold Merrill to BofA.

我们当时已经宣布了这笔交易。

We'd announced the deal.

所以在2008年10月，哈罗德·高担任耶鲁法学院院长。

So in October 2008, by '23, and Harold Koh was the dean of Yale Law School.

他曾是希拉里·克林顿担任国务卿时的首席律师。

He was the top lawyer for Hillary Clinton when she was secretary of state.

哈罗德是个了不起的人，聪明绝顶又极具人格魅力。

Harold's a tremendous man, so bright and such a terrific human being.

他对我说——如果你把这段放进去，哈罗德听到的话会很有趣——看他是否记得是这么回事。

And he said to me and if you include this and Harold listens, it'll be funny if he remembers it this way.

他对我说这话时，我妻子应该也在场。

He said to me I think my wife was with me.

他对我说，你看起来糟透了。

He said to me, you look terrible.

你经历了很多。

You've been through a lot.

如果你想休息一下，来这里教书、写作、喘口气，你可以这么做。

If you wanna take a break and come up here and teach, write, and just catch your breath, you can do that.

我对他说，我很感激。

And I said to him, I appreciate that.

但我谈判完成了美林卖给美国银行的交易。

But I negotiated the sale of Merrill to Bank of America.

我承诺过。

I'm committed.

然后在接下来的六周里，我逐渐意识到，未来继续运营的公司将与我待了十七年的那家截然不同。

And then over the next six weeks, I slowly realized that the firm that was going to go forward would be very different than the firm that I had spent seventeen years in.

这是两种截然不同的文化。

Those are two very different cultures.

你当时是怎么想的？现在回想起来结果如何？

What did you think about that at the time, and how do you think it's played out now?

已经过去很久了。

It's been a long time.

这是两种截然不同的文化。

They're two very different cultures.

你提到的那个周末，我除了生存和让美国银行拯救美林之外什么都没想。

The weekend that you started me with here, I didn't think about anything but survival and having Bank of America rescue Merrill Lynch.

我只希望那能实现，因为我不想美林成为雷曼兄弟。

I just wanted that to happen because I didn't want Merrill Lynch to be Lehman Brothers.

事后，当你终于能松口气时，我清楚地意识到这是两种截然不同的文化。

After the fact, after you could start to exhale, it was clear to me there were two very different cultures.

但当哈罗德第一次对我说这话时，我以为自己会全身心投入。

But when Harold first said this to me, I thought I was all in.

我确实全心投入了，但我原以为会长期坚持下去。

I was all in, but I thought I'd be there for a long time.

但随着真相一层层揭开，我发现这并不适合我。

But it wasn't it wasn't for me as I as the onion started getting pulled back.

那你当时教什么课程？

So what did you teach?

2009年我第一次授课，幸运或不幸的是，这堂课没被录下来。

The first in in o '9, I taught a class, and fortunately fortunately or unfortunately, we didn't tape this.

我开设了一门课程。

I started a class.

我在危机期间负责一个班级。

I had a class in the crisis.

所以我邀请了拉里·芬克来授课。

So I had Larry Fink come up.

艾伦·施瓦茨来讲了熊市的故事。

Alan Schwartz came up and told the bear story.

还有身陷漩涡中心的拉吉·科恩。

Raj Cohen, who was in the middle of it all.

詹姆斯·戈尔曼也来了。

James Gorman came up.

其实很有趣的是，詹姆斯来时我刚离开美林。

And, actually, it's interesting because when James came up, I had just left Merrill.

他当时是摩根士丹利的联席总裁，但还没被任命为下任CEO。

He was co president of Morgan Stanley, but had not been named the next CEO.

后来我们带着妻子在纽黑文的耶鲁法学院共进了晚餐。

And we had dinner with our wives at in New Haven, Yale Law School.

其实不是，我不认为那是莫里家的。

Not actually, I don't think it was Maury's.

可能我现在常去的是Bar Pizza，那家店超棒。

It might have been the place I go to now is Bar Pizza, which is terrific.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

但不管怎样，我们稍微聊了聊摩根士丹利将要发生的事。

But, anyway, we talked a little bit about what was gonna happen at Morgan Stanley.

他会拿到最高职位吗？

Was he gonna get the top knot?

我们保持密切联系，八个月后他果然被任命为CEO，两天后他就打电话叫我过去。

And we stayed in close touch, and literally eight months later, he's named CEO, and he calls me two days later and says, come here.

所以这件事的起因是我们本就相熟，但那次晚餐是关键。

So the genesis of that was in that we knew each other well, but that dinner.

但他们都站出来，从各自视角讲述信贷危机，这非常吸引人，因为这些都是亲历者，学生们都听入迷了。

But they all came up and they talked about the credit crisis from their perspective, and it was fascinating because these were all the people who had a front row seat, and the students were captivated.

这就是我第一学期做的事。

So that was what I did that first semester.

我们全程采用非公开形式，这对邀请嘉宾至关重要，毕竟当时涉及诉讼和监管机构。

And we did it all off the record, which was essential to have people because there was litigation, there were regulators.

我记得有耶鲁校刊的人混进其中一场试图报道，我们费了很大劲才撤稿，因为这些人都在坦诚分享。

And I remember from one of the Yale publications, somebody snuck into one of them and tried to write about it, and we had to work hard to get that pulled because these people were all speaking about it.

这个话题直到2009年都是热议焦点。

It was quite a big topic of conversation well into 2009.

奥巴马总统也谈到过，但这确实是我最初教授的内容。

President Obama talked about it, but that's what I taught at first.

后来随着时间推移，我也开始教授金融市场相关课程。

And then over time, I've taught classes in financial markets.

我们教授过伦理学课程。

We've taught classes in in ethics.

我经常与耶鲁法学院的一位杰出教授约翰·梅西合作授课，他在公司法领域堪称传奇人物。

I teach often with a great professor up there I give a shout out to named John Macy, who's a legend in in corporate law at Yale Law School.

如今我们经常一起共事。

He and I do a lot together now.

我很自豪地说，我的长女今年秋天将成为那里的三年级法学院学生。

And I will proudly say that my oldest daughter is gonna be a third year law student there this fall.

哦，恭喜你。

Well, congratulations.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们继续

We continue to

格雷格，可曾对学术生涯动过心？

ever felt tempted by the academic life, Greg?

乔，我...我考虑过很多可能性。

Joe, my I I thought about a lot of things.

但当我离开摩根士丹利时，我不想再第三次加入其他大机构。

But when I left Morgan Stanley, I did not wanna third run at another big firm.

我已经在两家顶级机构工作过。

I had done two great firms.

我希望能有机会领导某项事业，更想以创业的方式实现。

I wanted to have the opportunity to lead something, and I wanted to do it on a more entrepreneurial basis.

所以我决心尝试这样的道路。

So I was determined to do something like this and try this.

如果发展不如现在顺利，我可能会考虑更全面地投身学术界。

Had it not worked as well as it has, I could have thought about a broader career in academia.

这其中有很多我喜欢的方面，而且学生们都非常出色。

There's a lot about that I like, and the students are fantastic.

耶鲁法学院的学生简直不可思议。

Yale Law School has just incredible students.

我本可以选择那条路，但我真心希望能汲取我职业生涯和人生中的经验教训，因为这里的文化与我想象中优秀律所的运作方式紧密相连。

I I could have gone that way, but I really wanted to try to take lessons of my life and my career, both career and life, because the culture here is somewhat tied to the way that I I wanna see a great firm operate.

这种追求卓越的理念，同时强调协作、同事情谊，我希望人们能充满活力。

This notion of excellence, but collaboration, collegiality, and I want people to be energized.

我信奉积极的领导方式。

I believe in positive leadership.

我认为人类天生就在追寻这种领导力。

I think human beings look for it.

因此我想先运用职业生涯和人生的经验，尝试打造这样的平台，再考虑其他事情。

So I wanted to take lessons of career and life and apply it and try to create something like this before I thought about anything else.

后来我们听说可以拿到'洛克菲勒'这个响当当的名字，就这样决定了。

And then we heard we could get this incredible name, Rockefeller, and and that was it.

这就是我锁定的目标。

That was my I zeroed in on that.

有趣的是，我们收购的家族办公室Rockefeller Rock & Co，其顾问竟是我在高盛竞争多年的投资银行家Don Truesdale。

And what's interesting, Rockefeller Rock and Co, the family office that we bought, ended up being advised by an investment banker I competed with for years at Goldman named Don Truesdale.

他当时代表他们，而Truesdale和我在高盛美林竞争了二十年。

He was representing them, And Truesdale and I had twenty years of competing in Goldman Merrill.

所以说世界真小，但这确实是我想要做的事。

So it's a small world, but that's really what I wanted to to do.

如今我们已站稳脚跟，拥有一个势头强劲的优秀律所。

And now that we're where we are, we've got a great firm with tremendous momentum.

我正全力推动律所发展到新阶段——无论是股权结构、规模还是专业能力——直到某天像所有人一样交棒，让事业在我之后持续传承。

I'm very focused on having it get to a stage both in terms of ownership and scale and capabilities where at some point, I, like everybody, moves on, and it goes on and on after me.

因为美林证券未能实现这一目标，这将是我永远的遗憾。

Because the fact that didn't happen for Merrill Lynch will be a regret I always have.

我们正在这里构建伟大而特别的事业，我希望未来的员工和客户能享受并在这个环境中茁壮成长。

We're building something great and special here, and I want generations of people and clients after me to be able to enjoy this and to thrive within this environment.

格雷格·弗莱明，感谢您今天加入我们并分享您精彩的见解。

Greg Fleming, thank you for joining us and sharing your wonderful insights with us today.

谢谢，乔。

Thanks, Joe.

非常感谢。

Appreciate it.

我聊得很愉快。

I've enjoyed it.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

如果您喜欢这期播客，请在苹果播客上留下评论或分享给您的朋友。

If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or share it with your friends.

谢谢。

Thank you.