Episode 265 | Dr. Malcolm Townes, Innovation Fund Manager at Washington University | Strategic Medtech Commercialization: Lessons from the Gap Fund

医疗创新始于医疗领域的深入交流。

Medical innovation starts with medical discussion.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我是林赛·迪尼恩，Project Medtech市场联络部总监，欢迎收听Project Medtech播客的又一期节目。

I'm Lindsey Deneen, director of marketing engagement at Project Medtech, and welcome to another episode of the Project Medtech podcast.

如果您有任何需求，或者想推荐未来的嘉宾，欢迎发送邮件至 info@ProjectMedtech.com。

If we can help you in any way or you would like to suggest a future guest, you can email us at info@ProjectMedtech.com.

像这样的对话之所以有价值，正是因为我们通过标志性活动——中西部展示会、初创企业论坛，以及即将登陆美国的活动——把大家聚在一起。

If conversations like this are helpful, that's exactly why we bring people together at our signature events, the Midwest showcase, the startup symposium, and coming to America.

想了解更多关于我们活动的信息，包括人脉拓展、教育培训和初创企业路演比赛，请访问 www.projectmidtech.com。

For more on our events that include networking, education, and pitch competitions for startups, check them out at www.projectmidtech.com.

如果您公司也致力于推动医疗科技发展，改善患者生活，我们还提供赞助合作机会。

We even have sponsorship options if your company is also dedicated to accelerating medical technology to impact patient lives.

欢迎今天就联系我们，参与进来。

So reach out today to get involved.

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他们致力于为各类发明人、创业者和企业提供个性化、专业化的服务，并能灵活适应您的独特需求。

They are committed to providing inventors, entrepreneurs, and businesses of all types with personal and professional services and are flexible to meet your unique needs.

他们的目标是帮助您了解如何获得有价值的专利和商标保护，同时提供高水准的服务，收费合理，适合独立发明人、初创企业和中小企业。

It is their goal to both educate on how to secure valuable patent and trademark protection and to provide high quality services at rates affordable to independent inventors, startups, and small businesses alike.

好了，不多说了，我们直接开始吧。

Without further ado, let's dive in.

好的。

Okay.

Malcolm，欢迎来到我们的播客。

Malcolm, welcome to the podcast.

谢谢你们邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

没问题。

Absolutely.

那我们先来做个自我介绍吧，Malcolm。能简单讲讲你的背景，以及你在华盛顿大学目前主要负责什么工作吗？

So, Malcolm, let's start with an introduction to who you are, your background and what you currently do at WashU.

好的。

Sure.

我的经历比较多元。

I have a bit of an eclectic background.

我现在的职位是华盛顿大学圣路易斯分校技术管理办公室的创新基金经理。

I'm the currently my title was Innovation Fund Manager at Washington University of St.

在圣路易斯分校的技术管理办公室工作。

Louis in the Office of Technology Management.

简单来说，我主要负责华盛顿大学技术管理办公室里的技术开发工作。

But basically, I oversee the technology development function within WashU's Office of Technology Management.

教育背景方面，我拥有密苏里科技大学的机械工程学士学位。

So education wise, I have a bachelor's in mechanical engineering from Missouri S and T.

我职业生涯一开始是做项目管理的。

I started my career doing project management work.

后来我回学校读了印第安纳大学的远程工商管理硕士。

Then went back to school and got an MBA from Indiana University's teleschool business.

在那个项目里，我主修了创业和市场营销。

And so I actually concentrated in entrepreneurship and marketing in that program.

拿到MBA后，我重返行业，主要做产品管理，大部分时间都在工业产品公司。

And being once I earned my MBA, went back in the industry, worked in product management primarily, mostly in the industrial product company.

这段经历真的让我学到了很多。

So it was a really good learning experience.

公司常把产品管理形容成公司内部的创业者。

They like to pitch product management as sort of being an entrepreneur within the company.

其实没那么夸张，但确实很有收获——要对产品线的盈亏负责，做定价决策，跟客户打交道，还参与新产品开发，诸如此类。

It's not quite like that, but it was very good experience having that p and l responsibility oversight of a product line, making pricing decisions, interacting with customers, things of that nature, getting involved in new product development.

之后我还短暂地做过管理咨询，主要是做变革管理和流程优化，这也是段非常宝贵的经历。

And then I did a short stint in management consulting to, basically do change management and process improvement work, which was another really good learning experience.

后来我转到了密苏里科技大学的技术转移部门，在那里工作了十年，负责技术转移和经济发展，之后被圣路易斯大学聘任。

And then came was able to make the transition into tech transfer at Missouri S and T, working there for ten years in their tech transfer and economic development office before being recruited to St.

加入圣路易斯大学的技术转移办公室，担任技术商业化副主管。

Louis University's tech transfer office, serving as an associate director for technology commercialization.

在圣路易斯大学期间，我继续攻读了公共与社会政策博士学位，主要研究技术转移政策和科技政策。

And while I was at SLU, I went ahead and earned my PhD in public and social policy, really focused on technology transfer policy and science policy.

大约在2023年2月，我转到了华盛顿大学，主要任务是建立并推动华盛顿大学缺口基金的运行。

And then, about February 2023, made the move over to WashU, basically to set up the WashU Gap Fund and get that up and running and operating.

我一直负责这项工作。

And so I've been overseeing that.

过去几年里，我们一直在思考办公室的组织架构，以及如何更有效地开展技术商业化。

And in the past few years, we've sort of been thinking about how the office is structured, how we go about doing technology commercialization.

原本只聚焦于华盛顿缺口基金，现在逐渐扩展为更系统地推动技术开发，更主动地提升技术的成熟度。

And so that what started off as a focus on the Washington Gap Fund is sort of expanded into this function of technology development and being more strategic about developing the technology further.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我想聊聊这个Gap基金，你是怎么把它架构起来的。

I wanna get into, the the Gap Fund and how you've you've you've structured that.

不过首先，你是在密苏里州长大的吧。

But first, so so you grew up in Missouri then.

是的。

Yep.

那具体是在密苏里哪里？离得多远？

How far what are we talking about from from geographically?

我觉得听众里大概有六到七成是北美地区的，主要是美国和加拿大。

So so, again, I think listeners are 60 to 65% North American, US, Canada based.

其余的是国际听众。

The rest are international.

所以密苏里科技大学和圣路易斯之间有多远？

So how far is is Missouri S and T to St.

路易斯？

Louis?

这在密苏里州内算近吗？

Is this close in the state of Missouri?

还是

Or

嗯，我在圣路易斯。

Well well, I'm in St.

路易斯安那州，所以S和T在圣路易斯西南大约100英里处。

Louis, and so S and T is about a 100 miles Southwest of St.

路易斯安那州。

Louis.

哦，明白了。

Oh, gotcha.

好的。

Okay.

其实离得挺近的，我前后通勤了整整十年。

It's actually close enough that I actually commuted for ten years.

真的吗？

Really?

那确实挺夸张的。

So it was it was an extreme Yeah.

我就这么来回跑了十年。

I did that for for ten years.

明白了。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

真不错。

Very cool.

好的。

All right.

那我觉得或许可以先给大家铺垫一下圣

And then I think maybe just laying some of the land here for the St.

路易斯这片的行业生态环境。

Louis ecosystem.

我知道圣路易斯的华盛顿大学，

I I know of WashU University, which St.

这个名字特别容易让人误会，我之前一直以为它跟华盛顿州有关系。

Louis, which is super deceiving because I think of the state of Washington.

不过我知道这所学校，因为它有物理治疗专业，我太太就是物理治疗师。

But but I know of it because it has a physical therapy school and my wife is a physical therapist.

所以我想她可能申请过华盛顿大学圣路易斯分校，也拿到了录取，但最后还是在俄亥俄州留下了。

So I think she she might've applied and gotten into WashU, but ultimately stayed in Ohio.

不管怎样，华盛顿大学圣路易斯分校，

But regardless, WashU in St.

它算是个大大学还是小大学？

Louis, is it a big university, small university?

你能跟我聊聊华大出名在哪儿吗？

Talk to me a little bit about what WashU is known for.

是的，这是一所私立大学，规模相当大。

Yeah, it's a private university, fairly significant.

华大每年在科研上的投入大约有十亿美元。

WashU does about a billion dollars worth of research with the EIRs.

真厉害。

Wow.

这里科研活动非常多，和BJC巴恩斯犹太医疗系统关系非常紧密。

And so there's a lot of research going on here, very closely affiliated with the BJC, Barnes Jewish Healthcare System.

无论在教育还是创新方面，它都是这个生态圈里的核心力量之一。

And so education wise and innovation wise, it's a major player here within the ecosystem, sort of one of the anchors here.

我们看到的大部分科研成果，都来自医学院。

So most of the research in terms of disclosures that we see come out of the medical school or the school of medicine.

如果要估算的话，我觉得大概80%的成果都出自这里。

And so I would say that's probably, you know, 80% in terms of disclosures that we're seeing if I were to ballpark it.

不过我们的工程学院也很活跃，尤其是在生物力学领域。

But we also have very active engineering department with a bio mechanical field of discipline.

所以那边也有一些科研活动。

And so we see activities there.

还有传统的文理学院，搞化学之类的科研。

There's the regular school of arts and sciences with chemistry and all of that.

那边也有不少研究在进行。

And so there's research there.

总的来说，这里的科研活动非常丰富。

So there's a lot of research going on.

作为一所大学，华盛顿大学和生态圈里的其他机构，比如BioSTL和BioGenerator，联系非常紧密。

And so as an institution, WashU is very connected to other partners within the ecosystem, such as BioSTL and BioGenerator.

技术管理办公室就和这些机构保持着密切合作。

So the Office of Technology Management actually works fairly closely with those organizations.

不过在这个生态圈里，当然还有其他大学也在做研究，周边也有不少其他项目在开展。

But within the ecosystem, obviously, there are other universities here that are doing research and other programs that are occurring within the area.

所以你知道的，Cortex 这个创新区在过去十年里发展得相当不错。

So, you know, Cortex as an innovation district has developed quite a bit over the last ten years.

所以华盛顿大学在那里有很强的存在感。

So WashU has a strong presence there.

它就在医学院校区旁边。

It's right next to the medical campus.

所以我们在那里也深度融入了。

And so we're really integrated there as well.

然后在圣路易斯

And then within the St.

的生态系统中，还有一些像T-Rex这样的机构，它们是随着时间逐渐发展起来的。

Louis ecosystem, there are other institutions like T Rex that sort of evolved over time.

还有一些项目提供指导，特别是在创业和创新方面。

There are other programs that are providing mentoring, particularly around entrepreneurship and innovation as well.

对。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Super cool.

你在那里的角色是Gap基金，我想请你解释一下这个项目的结构，但它可不只是针对生命科学领域的。

And your role there, Gap Fund, which I want you to explain the setup of this here, but it could be more than just life sciences.

对吧？

Is that right?

没错。

Exactly.

好的。

All right.

所以

So Got

我们设立Gap基金，主要是支持那些非药物、非治疗类的项目。

the way we set up the Gap Fund, it really focuses on anything that's non drug or not therapeutic.

我们这么安排，是因为觉得其他这些领域一直得不到应有的支持。

We set it up particularly because we felt all these other areas weren't getting great support that they really needed.

当人们想到科技时，往往只想到生物技术，这类机会其实没那么多。

And there weren't as many opportunities when people think of tech, they tend to think of biotech a lot.

而圣路易斯这个地方，生物技术领域非常活跃。

And that's a very active area here in the St.

整个圣路易斯的生态体系都集中在这一点上。

Louis ecosystem.

所以大家的关注点都集中在这里。

And so that tends to get a lot of focus.

这几乎占满了所有的资源和注意力。

It tends to suck up a lot of the oxygen in the room.

所以我们设立这个缺口基金，就是为了专门支持这些其他领域。

So we set up the Gap Fund to specifically provide support to all these other areas.

它的覆盖范围非常广，只要是华盛顿大学体系内非药物、非治疗类的技术，我们都支持。

And so it's very broadly defined as supporting any nondrug, nontherapeutic technology across the WashU community.

但未来我们也希望能把支持范围扩大到一些药物和治疗性技术上。

But we hope to be able to to expand that support into, some of the therapeutics and the drugs in the future going forward.

是的

Yeah.

太棒了

Very cool.

真不错

Awesome.

所以你能不能给我讲讲这个Gap基金？因为我觉得，我们见过不少本地大学设立创新部门，跟社区联动，搞这类项目，方式各有不同。

So so tell me a little bit about the Gap Fund because I think, you know, one of the things is we've seen a number of different ways that local universities create innovation departments and tie into the community and do these sorts of things.

我们之前聊过几次，虽然我不太清楚你博士具体研究什么，但你显然也接触过、研究过这些内容。

And we've talked a handful of times and I wasn't aware that what your PhD was actually in, but you've obviously seen some of this as well and studied this.

那你能说说这个基金是怎么设立的、结构是怎样的、有什么独特之处吗？之后也可以聊聊华盛顿大学的创新生态。

So tell me about how it's set up, how it's structured, why it's unique, and then you can talk a little bit about the innovation ecosystem that WashU is Sure.

当我们设立华盛顿大学Gap基金时，做了一些很明确的决定。

So when we set up the WashU Gap Fund, we made some very specific choices.

其中一个就是，这个基金不会对新创企业进行投资。

And one of them was that the fund wouldn't make investments in new ventures.

它的重点非常明确，就是技术本身。

It would focus pretty narrowly on the technology itself.

所以所有的资助都直接发放给教职员工，以他们作为大学雇员的身份领取。

And so all of the awards are given to the faculty in their role as employees of the university.

他们所开展的工作，都限定在华盛顿大学的校园范围内。

And so what they're working within the fence line of WashU.

我们这样设计，是为了避免在用初创企业作为载体时可能引发的各种利益冲突问题。

And we did that to really avoid a lot of the conflict of interest issues that may come up when you're trying to use a new business venture or startup as the vehicle for a lot of things.

同时，这也让我们对整个流程有了更大的掌控力。

But it also gave us a bit more control over the process.

因此，Gap基金的核心目标是搞清楚：要让这项技术在市场上具备竞争力，真正实现产品与市场的匹配，以及推动广泛采用，到底需要哪些条件。

And so with the Gap Fund, we're really focused on trying to understand what's necessary to make the technology competitive versus other solutions in the market, really achieving product market fit and really what's necessary to attain widespread adoption.

所以，我们始终聚焦在技术本身。

And so again, we're very focused on the technology itself.

我们还设计了分阶段拨款机制，根据项目计划和关键节点来发放资金，随着项目推进逐步到位。

And we set it up where we disperse the funding sort of in tranches, built around the work plan and certain key triggers or milestones as we work work along and do projects.

比如你参与的那个项目，我们做了市场准入和报销政策分析。

So so for example, project you worked on where we were doing market access and reimbursement analysis.

我们把资金分阶段发放，先付启动阶段的首笔发票，等项目完成、交付成果后再发放下一笔。

So structuring that so the disbursement was cover the initial invoice for where it got started and then another distribution once, you know, the project was complete and got the deliverables and then make another disbursement.

这样我们就能掌控资金使用方向，确保每一分钱都花在刀刃上，也能深度参与项目，帮助优化结构、聚焦商业化关键点。现在很多类似的概念验证或Gap基金项目，都在朝这个方向走——更主动介入，更深度参与，全程把控流程。

And so that gives us, control to make sure the money is being spent, the strategically, the way it should be spent, and and really enables us to really get involved with the projects, and and really help structure them and focus on the important themes in terms of commercialization, which, generally speaking, a lot of the the programs that are, you know, proof of concepts or Gap Fund type programs are sort of moving in a direction of being very involved, taking a very hands on approach, having a little more control over the process as we go forward.

从这个角度看，我们其实并不特别，但我们在技术本身上高度聚焦，不直接资助创业公司，这一点倒是挺独特的。

So in that sense, we're we're not that unusual, but in terms of the focus on the technology and really not funding ventures per se, that's, I think, is pretty unique.

不过我们和新创企业团队合作非常紧密，他们属于技术管理办公室的一部分，主要协助有志于商业化的教授，帮他们思考商业模式、收入策略、渠道布局这些配套问题。

But we do work really closely with the New Ventures team, that is, again, part of the office of technology management, and their mandate is really to to work with the faculty that are pursuing, new business ventures to commercialize their technologies and help them think about all the other things around that, you know, with the business model, the revenue strategy, the channels, and and all of those other things.

他们把这些方面全都整合起来。

So they bring all of that together.

在这个生态里，确实有这种支持，但Gap基金我们特意把范围收得很窄。

And so within the ecosystem, there is that support, but the Gap Fund, we've made pretty narrowly focused on on some things.

这样更容易管理，也更有利于实现我们设立Gap基金时想要达成的目标。

It makes it a bit easier to manage and a bit easier to achieve what we're trying to do with the Gap Fund in terms of the desired outcomes we're trying to accomplish here.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

其实我之前在电话里也跟你说过，我们第一次合作的那家公司，在报销评估方面已经做得相当出色了，不只是报销，他们在其他业务领域也取得了不少进展，虽然现在还谈不上是真正意义上的企业，对吧？

And I think, I told you that before the call as well is I was really impressed with first company we worked with on that reimbursement assessment in terms of what they already had accomplished in not just reimbursement, but the other areas of their business, even though it's not a business yet, right?

你们不是

You're not

在投资产品本身。

funding the product.

但你们依然可以掌控他们的创业准备和商业成熟度，确保他们一旦独立出来，就能立刻具备吸引投资的条件。

You still can control their startup and business readiness so that when they do spin out, they are really ready to take on capital.

我们经常看到的问题是，那些从其他大学孵化出来的公司，是否真的准备好应对经济回报的挑战了？比如对医保支付方、医疗机构、临床医生，或者患者这四类群体带来的价值。

I mean, that is generally a a pretty big issue we see is when we have companies that are spinning out of other universities, are they really ready to take on and answer those economic benefits that they're providing to the healthcare system, whether it be payers, providers, clinicians, patients, or all four.

这些经济层面的问题，确实挺难的。

You know, those those economic things are just hard.

把这件事和监管要求结合起来很难，我觉得早期创新者根本没怎么考虑过这一点。

The merger of that with the regulatory is difficult, and and I just don't think enough early stage innovators are thinking about that.

所以你能在这方面施加一些影响，引导他们朝这个方向走，这一点非常关键，能让他们后来发展成更成熟的公司，再交给风投团队接手，无缝衔接你们打下的基础。

And so the fact that you can have some of that control to kinda push them down that route, I think, is really key and leads to probably really mature companies going to the new venture team and then being able to kinda pick that up where where you guys left it off.

根据你的经验，这些早期创新者来找你的时候，最常遇到的困难是什么？

What are, in your experience, these early stage innovators, what are some of the biggest things they struggle with when they come to you?

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，他们最难的就是把科研和商业分开，完成这个转变。

So in my experience, it's really hard for them to separate the research from the business and make that transition.

他们总是死死盯着科研，一门心思琢磨该做什么样的实验、什么样的研究。

They really tend to hone in on that research and focus on what science needs to be done, what type of science needs to be done and that type of research.

我们设立的Gap基金，正好能帮他们放慢脚步，大家都说要做客户调研。

The way we've set up the Gap Fund, we're really able to slow them down and everyone talks about doing customer discovery.

但问题是，他们能申请到的很多资助项目里，根本没把客户调研当成必要部分，也没法用这些钱来做。

But again, a lot of the grants that they have access to, that's really not a component of the grants and they can't fund it.

做客户调研真的需要花不少功夫。

And doing customer discovery takes quite a bit of effort.

这是一项需要慢慢培养的真正技能。

And it's a real skill that has to be developed.

教授们并没有接受过这方面的训练，他们也没准备好，手上还有一堆别的事要处理。

Again, the faculty aren't trained to do that and they're really not prepared and they have all this other things on the plate.

所以通过Gap基金的这种设置，我们能有效激发他们主动去做客户调研。

So with the Gap Fund and the way we've set it up, it really enables them to want to do the customer discovery.

我们能推动他们从一开始就做客户调研，真正去思考目标用户是谁，理解他们面临的问题和需求，搞清楚他们期待的成果，以及他们日常工作的模式——尤其是这项技术如何融入临床工作流程。

And so we can really force that issue to have them do customer discovery on the front end to really engage and think about who are really the target users and understanding what is the job and the problem from their perspective and what are they really looking for in terms of the desired outcomes, going forward and how they approach their jobs, particularly how this technology might integrate within the clinical care workflow.

这样一来，我们就能温和地引导他们去完成这些客户调研的工作。

And so we're able to really, you know, nudge them along to do that customer discovery work.

我们现在的方式是，为他们匹配一位擅长客户调研的服务专家。

And the way we've done this now is that we really pair them up with a service provider that has an expertise in doing customer discovery.

他们和这位专家一起明确目标用户是谁，确保定位准确，同时完善筛选问卷和访谈对话。

And so they work with them to define who that target user is and make sure that's correct, work on the screeners, the dialogue.

但实际的访谈引导工作他们交给顾问来做，自己只在一旁观察。

But the actual moderation they leave to that consultant while they're observing the interviews themselves.

之后还会进行复盘会，大家聊聊访谈中发现了什么问题，哪些地方需要调整访谈方式。

And then there are debrief sessions where they can talk about, okay, what came up, what type of issues, what adjustments do we need to make in terms of how we're doing these discussions.

这个过程真的能让他们豁然开朗，要么印证了他们之前的设想，要么推翻了他们一开始的错误假设。

And going through that process really, you know, opens their eyes up, and it either gives clarity on some things that they were thinking or, you know, refutes some assumptions that they were making going into to the project.

举个例子，有一位教授在做一种物联网网关管理技术。

So great example is we have one faculty that's working on some Internet of Things technology, gateway manager.

一开始他以为，目标用户最看重的是实时数据访问，还有其他一些功能。

And so going into it, he was operating under the assumption that real time data access was was gonna be important to the target users that he had envisioned for this and some other things.

但通过客户调研，亲自旁听访谈后，他明显意识到，这根本不是关键问题。

But going through that customer discovery, process and and sitting in on those interviews really became apparent that that really wasn't the key issue.

真正重要的其实是其他几件事。

There were some other key issues that were really more important.

所以实时数据访问并没有被列入核心功能清单。

And so that real time data access wasn't really part of the minimum feature set.

所以，要是他们没经历这个客户发现的过程，就会走上一条拼命优化实时数据访问的路，但这其实并不能为技术带来真正的市场竞争力。

And so had they not gone through that customer discovery experience, you would have gone down a path of really trying to optimize real time data access, but it wouldn't really be creating value in making the technology competitive for the marketplace.

这就是那种情况。

And so it's that type of thing.

这非常重要，因为它能真正指导我们如何进一步开发、构建和包装这项技术，以便推向市场，甚至包括如何与目标客户沟通。

It's very so, but it's really important because it really informs how the technology needs to be further developed and structured and formulated to bring it to the market and even how you go about talking about it with target customer.

对，是谁呢？

And who yeah.

对。

Yeah.

举个例子。

So so so example.

我想问问你关于组建团队的事。

Let me ask you about the creation of the team here.

对吧？

Right?

有流程、资金安排得当，这是一回事。

Because it's one thing to have the process, have, you know, the funds set up appropriately.

明白了。

Okay.

不错。

Good.

我们喜欢这种策略：推动企业前进，然后顺利交接。

We like the strategy of how we're gonna do this, and we're gonna move companies through and hand them off.

华盛顿大学里显然有很多创新在发生。

And obviously, there's plenty of innovation happening at WashU.

所以，该有的要素都有了。

So it's like, you have all the ingredients.

那现在怎么让团队真正把计划执行起来呢？

How do you get the teams to execute the plan now?

因为这其实是整个事情里最关键的一环——很多生态系统和大学都能制定出很棒的计划，但计划终究有限，能做的也有限，最终成败还是看执行。

Because that's the other big piece of this is a lot of ecosystems and universities will put together these really good plans, and there's only so much planning you can do and so many different things you can do, and it comes down to execution.

所以你能不能跟我聊聊这个？因为我们确实和这方面有过一些互动。

So talk to me a little bit about that because we got some engagement with with that.

对。

Yeah.

当我们和Beacon AI合作做项目的时候，我们对华盛顿大学内部那支支持创新者的团队印象特别深，他们一路协助推动项目落地。

When we when we when we operate when we did our project with Beacon AI, and we were really impressed with the internal WashU team as well that was working on helping the innovator through the process and build these things out.

所以我很想听听你是怎么组建和打造这支团队的。

And so, yeah, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that and how you looked at building that team.

是的，研究团队通常是自己形成的，不管他们是怎么聚到一起的，我们都会接纳他们。

Yeah, so the research team is developed on their own, however they come together and however they come to us.

我们就这么接手他们。

That's how we take them.

有时候我们在评估一个潜在项目时会发现，他们特别需要一位具备特定商业化或本地化经验的导师，因为这正是他们最缺的一环。

There may be instances where we were evaluating a potential project and we're thinking, okay, they really need to have an advisor here that has certain commercial localization experience, a certain commercial experience within this domain because that's really what's missing.

这时候我们就会帮他们牵线搭桥，或者协助他们找到合适的人选。

And so we'll either connect them in some way or try to help them connect.

不过另一个不错的地方是，我们新创项目团队里有一个驻场创业者计划。

But the other nice thing is that within the, New Ventures team that we have an EIRs program, entrepreneur in residence.

对于那些考虑启动新业务的人，我们可以帮他们对接驻场创业者，让他们发挥指导作用。

So for those that are considering going through the process of launching a new business venture, there's the opportunity to try and connect them within EIRs that could help play that role.

我们新创项目团队还设有一个新创项目研究员计划。

We also have this New Venture Fellows program that operates, out of the New Ventures team.

过去几年，每年我们都会选出四到五位研究员，让他们学习创业和科技创业的相关知识，比如商业模式、价值主张和实用框架，同时把学到的内容应用到实际项目中。

And so every year for the past couple of years, we've we've able to been able to have, you know, four or five or so fellows that are learning about entrepreneurship and technology entrepreneurship, learning about, you know, business models and value propositions and relevant frameworks, but then being able to apply what they're learning on real projects.

我们把这种支持用在这些项目上，让研究员和研究人员一起合作，解决一些关键问题。

And so you take that type of assistance and apply it to these projects and have them work with the researchers and our research team to answer some of these questions.

比如你参与的项目，布莱斯·索德迈尔，就是从这个计划里出来的。

And so, you know, for example, the project you worked on, Bryce Sodermeyer, you know, came out of that program.

他后来被技术管理办公室正式聘用了。

He's since been hired on with the Office of Technology Management.

他被安排专门负责这项技术的工作。

And so he, you know, was assigned to work with, you know, that particular technology.

这次我们说的是多克特尔。

In this case, we're we're talking about Doctor.

拉吉·达赫，抱歉，还有他那项预测恶性脑水肿和中风的技术。

Raj Dhar, excuse me, and his technology for predicting malignant edema, strokes.

现在我们有了额外的资源，可以深入探讨这些疑问和未知领域。

And so now there's an extra resource to dig into some of these these questions, these unknowns we we might have.

在这种情况下，涉及到市场准入和医保报销的问题，可以提前做一些工作。

And then there's in that case, it was around some of the market access and reimbursement where you can do some early work.

拉吉和他的团队已经完成了初步的客户调研，了解了客户的真实需求和视角，明确了创造价值的机会所在，确认了一些关键点，接着又开展了FDA监管分析，通过Q子程序与FDA正式沟通，争取在开展验证或其他工作之前，获得明确的官方反馈。

So Raj and his his, team having gone through the initial customer discovery work, to understand what was going on with the customer and the customer's perspective, and really understand where the opportunity was to create value, and confirming some things, then going on, actually going through, an FDA regulatory analysis and going actually going through the process, of engaging with the FDA through the q submission process to get specific, definitive feedback before they start down the road of doing validation or anything of that nature.

在这个过程中，市场准入和医保报销的问题浮现出来，于是我们决定为他们对接另一个资源，协助深入思考这些问题。

And so as they go through that, then the issues of market access and reimbursement came up and said, okay, well now let's connect them with another resource to help think through those issues.

这时候，Project Medtech就派上了用场，帮助他们解决这些难题。

And that's when Project Medtech comes into the picture to help work through those issues.

所以，整个支持方式其实是非常量身定制的，针对每个具体的机会来调整。

And so, again, it's really fairly tailored to the individual opportunity.

这不是一个固定不变的团队模式。

It's not one standard team plug.

你们把项目推进到下一阶段就行。

You guys move it along to the next.

但不管怎样，真正起决定性作用的，是研究者和团队的开放度。

But the one thing that really makes all a difference no matter what is really the coachability of the researcher and the research team.

我们都是从个案中观察到的。

And so we see it anecdotally.

虽然没有做过系统的数据统计，但我们明显感觉到，那些愿意听取反馈、积极参与、不抵触、真正想搞清问题并据此调整的团队，结果都要好得多。

We haven't done any hard data on this, but we do get a sense that in those instances where the researchers are really coachable, meaning they they take feedback in, they engage, they're not defensive, they're really trying to understand what the issues are and adjust accordingly and going through that process really actively, when they're coachable, the outcomes are are a lot better.

整个过程也会顺利很多。

The process goes a lot smoother.

如果非得让我挑一个最关键的因素，来判断某个技术或Gap基金项目会不会成功，那我肯定选开放度，毫无疑问。

And so if there is only one, you know, factor that I could use to try and make a decision about whether or not a technology or or a Gap Fund project is gonna be, quote, successful or unsuccessful, it will be coachability without a doubt.

这确实是预测成败最准的一个因素。

You know, that would be the one factor that seems to be the most predictive.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

我完全能理解这一点。

I I can totally see that.

我们经常看到，技术背景的创始人在临床验证方面遇到困难——光是证明设备能用还不够。

I mean, we see it all the time, with technical founders that struggle with the clinical you you have to have clinical validation beyond just does your device work or not.

你还需要证明它带来的经济价值。

You have to have clinical validation around the economic impact you're creating.

我觉得这可能是个让他们难以开口的话题，毕竟你打交道的通常是临床医生、科学家和工程师。

And I think that's just like I I I don't know if it's like a difficult place to or a a difficult piece for them to talk about, but generally, you're working with clinicians, scientists, and engineers.

医疗关乎挽救生命、改善生活，但同时它也是一个商业领域。

And, you know, health care is about saving lives and and improving lives, but it's also a business.

而谈到商业层面，总显得有点不那么吸引人。

And and there's that unsexiness of having to talk about that business aspect.

但是我觉得

But I

我觉得有些临床医生在那种可指导性上可能有点困难，就是说，嘿。

think some of these clinicians probably probably struggle with a little bit in in that coachability of, hey.

我知道这个产品在诊所里会怎么用。

I know how this product is gonna get used in the clinics.

我们确实知道这一点，但还是得去和其他人沟通。

And it's like, hey, we know that, but we still gotta talk to other people.

这其实是他们能做出的最危险的假设之一。

And and that's really one of the most dangerous assumptions they can make.

这对我来说是个明显的警示信号。

That's one of the red flags to me.

我之前提到过，最重要的因素之一就是可指导性。

I I talked about one side the factor that's the biggest ring light and coachability.

最大的警示信号，就是认为自己最了解目标用户的需求。

The the biggest red flag is is that assumption that I know what's best for the target user.

我理解他们为什么会这么想，毕竟他们是这个领域的专家。

And I understand how they can come to that because they are experts in their field.

你知道，他们在这行干了很长时间。

You know, they've been doing this for a long time.

他们积累了丰富的经验。

They have a lot of knowledge.

他们确实懂很多，但总是存在专家盲区，以为在一个领域有专长，就能自然地把这种能力迁移到另一个领域。

They do know a lot, but there's always the potential for expert blindness and thinking that expertise in one area automatically translates into expertise in another area.

但事实根本不是这样。

And that's just not the case.

我常说的是，作为创新者，如果你在为自己亲身参与的临床领域开发技术，那你很可能就是个例外——即使你属于目标用户群体，你在使用方式、思考方式，或者你认为该解决的问题上，可能和大多数用户完全不同。

And a lot of times what I like to say is, you know, there's always a possibility that you might be the outlier, you know, in terms of if you're an innovator, creating technology for the field that you actually do clinical practice work for, there is the possibility that, yeah, even though you're part of that target user group, you might actually be the outlier in the target user in terms of how you're using it, how you're thinking about it, the job to be done.

所以，把自己的个人经验当成整个市场的普遍情况，是非常危险的。

And so it's very dangerous to try and generalize from your own personal experience to the broader market.

换个角度想，好吧，这很关键。

And so another way to think about it is, okay, great.

你可能会觉得用户会这样使用这项技术，或者对技术在特定场景下的应用有某种特定的假设。

You think one thing or you have this particular assumption about how how the user will apply the technology or how the technology is gonna be used in the situation.

好，拿出证据来。

Okay, prove it.

你是个科学家。

You're a scientist.

给我证明一下。

Prove it to me.

这时候就需要做实地调研了。

And that's where that Mhmm.

关键就在这里。

That's where

实地调研的作用就在于此，它能帮你验证、推翻或确认这些假设是否成立。

the discovery work comes in because that's how you test the assumption and prove or disprove or whether the assumption is valid.

对。

Yeah.

这挺有意思的。

It's funny.

今天早上我录了另一个播客，有个嘉宾在聊客户调研，他还提到了科学方法。

I recorded another podcast this morning and someone was talking about one of the guests was talking about that this morning of customer discovery and he was describing a scientific method.

你想想看，真有意思。

And I'm like, imagine that.

科学方法居然真的管用。

The scientific method actually works.

我问你个问题。

So let me ask you this.

那么在客户调研这块，华盛顿大学是怎么和其他医院、大学合作的呢？

How does WashU then, in this customer discovery piece, partner with other hospitals, universities to do some of this customer discovery?

正如你所说，对你们医疗系统和生态系统有效的做法，可能只适用于你们自己，或者某位医生的特定情况。

Because to your point, what might be right for your health system and your ecosystem that might just be unique to your health system or that physician?

那你们是怎么在全美乃至全球其他地区验证这些假设的呢？

And so how do you pressure test that with other geographies across The US or world?

我们在设计这些访谈时，会明确要求受访者不能来自华盛顿大学或其相关群体。

Well, when we structure these engagements, we specifically specify that the respondents did not be part of the WashU community or the community.

所以他们必须来自外部。

So they should be from outside.

也不能是发明者的亲近同事。

They shouldn't be close colleagues of the inventors.

基于这些要求，顾问和研究人员在推进项目时，会努力寻找来自外地的受访者，力求覆盖更广泛的地域，以及不同类型的机构，尽可能让反馈样本更具多样性。

And so with those directions then, the consultant and the researchers as they're working on the project, they try and find respondents outside of the area and try to get a general, broad geographic representation and maybe representation across different categories of types of institutions, things of that nature, to try and make sure we're getting a fairly broad sort of representative sample in terms of the feedback that we're getting.

而且，我们并不是要达到那种能算出统计显著性、p值做到0.001的程度，重点在于获取定性的洞察，理解背后的真实想法。

And, again, it's not meant to be to the degree where we can get, you know, statistical significance and, you know, p value of point zero zero one or anything like that, it's really more qualitative and and trying to to get the qualitative sense.

明白了。

Okay.

我们现在的方向对吗？

Are we on the right track?

还有哪些我们没考虑到的问题浮现出来了？

What kind of issues are coming up that we haven't thought about?

而且，这其实是个机会，能帮我们发现那些连想都想不到的问题。

And, really, you know, an opportunity to try and discover what the unknown unknowns are.

就是那些你根本没意识到、却可能让你栽大跟头的事情。

You know, the things that can really hurt you that you hadn't thought about and it doesn't even cross your mind to to consider.

这些只有走出去，跟客户和目标用户真正交流才能找到，通过用户调研展开真诚对话，而不是在谈话里推销你的技术。

And you can really only get that by going out and engaging with their the customers and target users and having those initial discussions through customer discovery and having a a true discussion and not try and sell your technology in the conversation.

没错。

Yeah.

另一个关键点。

Another important point.

对。

Yeah.

那我们再把视野拉回来，看看整个圣路易斯生态系统。

So so let's expand back out to kind of the St.

整体来看。

Louis ecosystem as a whole.

你知道的，除了获得美国职棒大联盟历史上第二多的世界大赛冠军头衔之外。

You know, outside of winning the second most World Series titles in in Major League Baseball.

圣路易斯这个生态系统还有哪些做得不错的地方，

What are some of the things that, St.

又有哪些方面还需要再加强一点呢？

Louis' ecosystem does well, and what are some things that could use a little bit of, could use more of?

我想到这个问题时，首先会想到的是融资环境怎么样？

Think like, when I think of this, I think of like, yeah, how's the funding environment?

我猜在医疗方面，你们通过支付方和医院系统的创新，参与度应该不错。

I'm assuming healthcare wise you have good engagement through payers and obviously hospital systems innovation.

不过，他们具体哪些地方做得比较好？又有哪些方面更需要外部支持呢？

But yeah, what are the things they do well and are things they use more support on?

我觉得从整个生态系统来看，圣路易斯在生物科学和生物技术领域确实表现得相当不错，

I think as an entire ecosystem, St.

并且已经成功确立了自身地位，在投资机会方面也稳步提升。

Louis has really done well in becoming a player with regard to biosciences and biotechnology and really establishing itself there is gaining, ground in terms of the, investment opportunities.

好的。

Okay.

关于风险投资的机会。

So the venture investments opportunities.

我们本地确实有一些风险投资公司。

We do have some local venture capital firms.

像新创团队这样的机构，也在积极搭建本地企业与全国风险投资界的联系。

And, you know, with the example, the new ventures teams, are very active in trying to make those connections with the venture capital community more broadly nationwide, to make those connections as well.

但说到底，这方面我们本地还是有提升空间的。

But, again, that's still an area where I think locally we could, stand and improve a little bit more.

我们本地生态面临的另一个难题，是很难找到愿意加入初创公司、在早期阶段提供支持的高管人才。

And I think the other challenge that we have a lot in the local East ecosystem is finding those initial c level leaders to come on board to startups and and help them at the very early stage.

我们有不少技术背景的创始人和联合创始人，本质上都是研究人员。

Again, we have these, really technical founders and co founders, who are researchers at heart.

他们最缺的，其实是一位有经验的首席执行官，能进来带他们，真正把项目推起来。

And that's really the other piece that they really need is that initial CEO that has that experience and background to come in and step in and work with them and really pilot the venture.

所以我们一直在这方面遇到困难，这也是为什么OTM要推出企业家与共鸣计划，试图填补这个空白。

And so I think that's a piece that we kind of struggle with is one of the reasons why OTM sort of set up the Entrepreneur and Resonance Program to try and sort of fill that void.

但我觉得这个缺口确实很大。

But I think that's a very big gap.

另外，我们还看到一些本地生态系统中令人兴奋的新机会——比如圣路易斯大学，它既是竞争对手，也是合作伙伴，作为另一所重要的研究机构，最近刚被认定为R1级研究型大学。

I think some of the other exciting opportunities we see coming along locally in the ecosystem, know, SLU is a competitor and a partner, so to speak, so another major research institution here, recently became an R1 research institution.

他们主要聚焦在地理空间领域和地理空间技术上。

But they focused on really the geospatial domain, geospatial technology.

再加上最近国家地理空间情报局的投资，以及在北圣路易斯新建的运营设施，

And so with the recent investment from NGA and, you know, building a whole new infrastructure facility, for their operations, in North St.

圣路易斯。

Louis.

这不仅极大地推动了北圣路易斯的经济发展，

That was a, I think, a big boost, not just to the, economic situation in North St.

也整体上提升了本地创新与创业生态的活力。

Louis, but just generally to the broader innovation entrepreneurship ecosystem here locally.

这件事会为其他前沿科技创造发展机会，还能助力圣路易斯

And so that creates, you know, opportunities for other cutting edge technology and for, you know, St.

在这个特定的技术领域真正打出名气。

Louis to really, you know, make a mark within a specific technology domain.

所以我还是觉得，我们本地其实有很多机会，但最核心的难题还是资金问题。虽然情况已经有所好转，但还有很大的提升空间，我们还能把流程做得更顺畅一些。

And so, again, I think there are lots of opportunities here, but the the main struggles, again, funding, may making improvements there, but there there's, you know, an opportunity to really make more improvement and make things a little bit easier.

不过在我看来，目前对所有人来说最大的阻碍，还是难找到能牵头启动项目的资深首席执行官，也就是缺乏C级别的管理经验。

But I I would say probably that c level experience in in finding that CEO to get started is probably still a big impediment for Everyone.

风投，尤其是那些还没充分获得风险投资的项目。

Ventures, particularly those that are underconsuming venture capital investment.

对，这说得通。

Yeah, it makes sense.

融资这块儿，我觉得除了波士顿、纽约和旧金山这些资金仿佛从口袋里往外掉的地方，其他地区的生态系统在融资方面确实有所改善。

The funding piece it's like I think it's been getting better across ecosystems that aren't Boston, New York and San Francisco where money seems to just kind of fall out of pockets.

不过我觉得，如果本地社区能解决早期种子轮的问题，很多公司就能成长起来，到时候成长期的风投机构自然会发现这些好公司。

But I do think though, it's like if local communities can solve for that early stage of seed a lot of these companies, those growth stage venture funds will find good companies.

而且说实话，这些地方的估值反而更高。

And and frankly, the valuations are better in some of these other areas.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这就是我们的期望。

And so, know, that's the hope.

但它们依然需要那些本地的成长期风投，能进来支持这些机会。

But they still need you still need those growth stage venture funds as well that can come in and that are local to a community that can fund, you know, some of these opportunities as well.

我完全同意。

So, yeah, I totally agree.

我觉得管理层的问题，也就是找得到人来带这些公司，确实是个普遍难题。

I think that the executive level, the, you know, finding enough jockeys for these horses is just generally a problem.

这些建议都很有见地。

And so, yeah, that's great insights.

好的。

Okay.

最后几个问题。

Final questions here.

如果早期创新者只有一件事需要了解美国医疗体系，你刚才已经给了很多宝贵的建议。

If there was one thing an early stage innovator would need to know about The US healthcare system, you've littered a lot of really good advice for them.

但要是非得挑一件最重要的，比如你正打算专门为美国医疗体系做创新，那最关键的一点是什么？

But if there's one thing where it's like, hey, I'm thinking about innovating specific to The US healthcare system, what's that one piece that I need to know heading into that?

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

其实核心在于，我看到很多研究者都误以为，只要拿到临床验证或者FDA批准，事情就万事大吉了。

Well, it kind of centers around the one assumption that I see a lot of researchers making that if I get, clinical validation or or get the approval from FDA, all is fine.

真正最大的坎儿其实是市场准入——让支付方愿意为这项技术买单，这另一个难关，非常棘手，他们必须清楚意识到：在数据和验证方面，不同目的需要的证据是完全不一样的。

That's the biggest hurdle and and it's it's getting what's called market access and getting payers to agree to pay for use of the technology is another hurdle, an incredibly challenging hurdle that they really need to be aware of and need to understand that when it comes to data and validating a technology, there's different types of data and different types of validation.

比如FDA要求的验证标准，可能跟市场准入和医保报销所需的证据根本不是一回事。

And so what might be needed to validate for the FDA or for clear requirements might be completely different than what they need to validate for market access and reimbursement and to convince payers to pay for technology.

这两者确实不一样。

And that may be different.