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大家好，欢迎收听《普鲁斯特好奇》，这是与《公共书籍》合作的播客。

Hello, and welcome to Proust Curious, a podcast in partnership with Public Books.

我是汉娜·韦弗，哥伦比亚大学中世纪文学助理教授，曾任思想与想象力研究所研究员。

I'm Hannah Weaver, an assistant professor of medieval literature at Columbia University and formerly a fellow at the Institute for Ideas and Imagination.

我是艾玛·克劳森，剑桥大学三一学院的早期现代研究者。

And I'm Emma Claussen, an early modernist at Trinity College, Cambridge.

《普鲁斯特好奇》曾是一档关于阅读全部七卷作品体验的播客。

Proust Curious is or has been a podcast about the experience of reading all seven volumes.

但我们现在已经读完了。

But we've now done that.

所以今天，我们带来一集特别的最终加更内容，有点不一样。

So today, we're offering a final bonus episode and something a little different.

欢迎和我们一起寻找逝去的时光

So join us as we search for lost time

并回忆一些与普鲁斯特相关的事物。

and remember things Proust related.

因此，它在文学文化中占有一席之地，部分原因是它影响了数代人。如果你还没读过普鲁斯特，你可能至少读过关于他的内容。

So has its place in literary culture, partly because it has influenced generations If you've not read Proust, you might have read about him.

所以今天，我们想聊聊一些作品，正好可以作为送给普鲁斯特爱好者的节日礼物灵感。

So today, we're thinking about some of those works just in time to inspire holiday gifts for the Proust lovers in your life.

这多少有点半开玩笑的意思。

It's only somewhat somewhat tongue in cheek.

它或许真能派上用场，但在开始之前，我想先跟艾玛说明一下：我们依然不会涉及大量关于普鲁斯特的学术著作，那些内容丰富得令人望而生畏，我们也不打算讨论它们。

It could be useful for that, but let let me just mention to Emma before we get started that we're still not dealing with the raft of academic work on Proust, which is intimidatingly varied and deep, and we're still not talking about it.

对。

No.

我们也不会讨论太多关于普鲁斯特的书，因为这类书实在太多了。

Nor are we talking about that many books about Proust, because there are a lot.

我们只聊几本，其中包括启发了我们整个播客项目的那本——劳尔·穆拉的《普鲁斯特，家族小说》。

We're just talking about a few, including the one that inspired our entire podcast project, which is called Proust, roman familial by Laure Murat.

汉娜刚读过这本。

Hannah had just read this.

我们去年在巴黎见面时刚读完这本书，它让我们开始谈论普鲁斯特，并启动了这个阅读计划。

We just read this when we met in Paris a year ago, and that got us talking about Proust and launched the reading project.

它真正开启了我们的整个友谊。

It launched our whole friendship, really.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

感谢劳尔·穆拉特写了这本精彩的作品，也感谢你指出，毕竟《追忆似水年华》只是七本平装书，并没有那么难读。

Thanks, Laure Murat, for your wonderful book, and also for saying that, after all, the Recherche is just seven paperbacks, and not that difficult to read.

我们对这个说法感到非常羞愧，以至于非得做点什么不可。

We felt we felt so humiliated by that contention that we that we had to do this.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这激励我们投身阅读，度过了一个既有趣又相当疲惫的一年，围绕普鲁斯特及其相关活动。

So that inspired us to leap into reading and spend what has turned out to be a fun, but also quite exhausting year of Proust and Proust adjacent activity.

确实。

Indeed.

所以更简单地说，普鲁斯特写了很多东西，

So put more simply, Proust wrote a lot,

而其他人写的甚至更多。

and then others wrote even more.

但在我们深入本期《普鲁斯特好奇》的最终集之前，是时候回答普鲁斯特问卷中的最后一个问题了。这个问题普鲁斯特在13岁和20岁时分别回答过，后来被《名利场》用作访谈工具。

But before we dive into this final episode of Proust Curious, it's time to answer one last question from the famous Proust Questionnaire, answered by Proust twice at ages 13 and 20 and used as an interview device by Vanity Fair.

我们会在节目笔记中提供问卷的链接。

We'll put a link to the questionnaire in the show notes.

今天，这更像是一种引导性提示而非问题：我最欣赏朋友的方面是什么。

Today, it's also a kind of prompt more than a question, and it is, what I most appreciate about my friends.

普鲁斯特的回答是，我大致翻译一下：我欣赏他们对我温柔。

And Proust answered, I'm roughly translating, I appreciate if they're tender for me.

如果他们的存在足够细腻，足以让他们的温柔变得极为珍贵。

If if their being is exquisite enough to make their tenderness extremely valuable.

我的天，哇。

I mean, wow.

哇。

Wow.

我从未根据朋友的精致程度来给他们排过名次。

I've never ranked my friends in terms of their exquisiteness.

作为一个压抑的英国人，'温柔'这个词对我来说很难开口，就是这样。

As a repressed British person, the word tenderness is difficult for me, full stop.

温柔确实很难。

Tenderness is hard.

是的。

Yeah.

温柔这个词对美国人来说也很难。

Tender that's hard for Americans too.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

但我觉得他的意思是，当你真的很喜欢一个人，而对方也喜欢你，那真是太棒了。

But I think what he's saying is, you know, when you really like someone, if they like you as well, that's awesome.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's true.

没错。

That's true.

如果你对某人有点暗恋，而且感觉对方也对你有好感，那确实会让人非常兴奋。

If you have kind of a friend crush on someone and it seems reciprocated, that can be very exciting.

确实如此。

Indeed.

那么，汉娜，你对这个问题的答案是什么？

So what's what's your answer to this one, Hannah?

你最欣赏朋友的什么

What do you appreciate the most

我

I in

在朋友身上？

your friends?

当我朋友能理解某些事情的幽默之处，而我不必解释时，我非常欣赏这一点。

Appreciate in my friends when they also know what is funny about something without me needing to explain it.

当我发给他们一个屏幕截图，他们能立刻明白我为什么发这个，而不需要我再做任何说明时，这种深层次的默契让我感到非常愉悦。

When I can send a screen cap of something and they know exactly why I sent it without any further commentary, That is a real joy to feel that level of connection with someone.

你呢，艾玛？

What about you, Emma?

你最欣赏朋友的什么？

What do you appreciate the most in your friends?

是的。

Yeah.

关于共同的幽默感，你说得对。

That's very true about shared humor.

我觉得，我在这整个系列中对普鲁斯特问卷的回答，其实都在讲我对朋友的欣赏之处。

I think that a lot of my answers to the Proust Questionnaire in this whole series have really been about what I appreciate about my friends.

哦，确实如此。

Oh, that's true.

比如我最欣赏的品质是什么，以及我认为的痛苦是什么。

Like, about what my favorite virtues are and my idea of misery.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

So Mhmm.

我想，我欣赏朋友的一点是，他们不仅会为我挺身而出，也会为他们自己而活。

I guess what I appreciate in my friends is, like, showing up for me or for them for themselves as well.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而你勇敢地帮助我变得勇敢。

And you being courageous, helping me be courageous.

但你知道，到目前为止，我倾向于给出一个感性的回答。

But You know, by now, I'm one for a sentimental answer.

所以，我也想说，我真正欣赏朋友的一点是，他们真正理解我，但又不会对此过分干涉。

So I'd also say that what I really appreciate in my friends is when they really understand me, but also leave me alone about it.

你知道的。

You know?

这真是一个恰到好处的情况。

It's a real Goldilocks situation here.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因为，你知道，被理解很好，但被体贴地理解也同样重要。

Because, you know, it's great to be seen, but it's also great to be seen tactually.

这就是我想说的。

That's what I'd say.

如果说实话，这真是个非常英国式的回答。

That's a very British answer, if I can be honest.

是的。

Yeah.

救命。

Send help.

被有分寸地看见。

Being seen tactfully.

嗯，这正是我需要努力达到的平衡。

Well, that's something to for me to aspire to, hitting that balance.

有太多关于普鲁斯特的非学术类书籍，甚至不包括学术著作，你难免会开始看到一些类别。

There's so many sort of para Proust books, even excluding the academic ones, that you can't help but start to see categories.

其中一些是关于普鲁斯特的传记，由认识他的人所写，最著名的比如塞莱斯特·阿巴里，她是他的长期仆人、伴侣，也是帮助他将《追忆似水年华》记录下来的人。

So there are some that have to do with Proust's biography written by people that knew him, like most famously Celeste Abaray, who was his longtime servant and companion and and help meet in terms of actually getting the recherche written down.

她写了一本回忆录，名为《普鲁斯特先生》，讲述她与他共同生活并协助他的经历等。

She wrote a memoir called Monsieur Proust about her experience living with him and and helping him, etcetera.

此外，还有学者和研究人员挖掘可能启发小说内容的他的生平细节。

And there are also then scholars and researchers who excavate aspects of his biography that might have inspired what's in the novel.

所以我一直在读卡罗琳·韦伯写的这本该类型的绝佳范例，书名叫《普鲁斯特、公爵夫人》，书中挖掘了三位被融合成小说中盖蒙公爵夫人的女性的生平。

So I've been reading this really great example of this genre by Caroline Weber, which is called Proust, Duchess, and it digs up the biography of the three women who were sort of amalgamated into the Duchess de Gaumont in the novel.

这是一本很棒的书。

It is a wonderful book.

我强烈推荐这本书。

I would highly recommend it.

它也确实是。

It is also Yeah.

我还没读过。

I've not read it.

这是一本巨著。

It's an absolute tome.

这本书非常长，但极其引人入胜。

It is deeply long, but deeply engaging.

所以我遗憾的是，还没读完，没法跟大家详细分享，但我真的会推荐它。

So I regret that I haven't finished it enough to tell everyone all about it, but I I would I would recommend it.

我认为它曾是普利策奖的入围作品。

I think it was a finalist for the Pulitzer.

它绝非冷门之作。

It's hardly obscure.

但确实存在这类关于普鲁斯特的传记性作品。

But so there are these sort of like biographical Proustiana.

那么，艾玛，还有其他哪些类别呢？

And then what are some other categories, Emma?

我认为，普鲁斯特作品的译本本身就是另一个独立的类别。

Well, I'd say that translations of Proust are a whole other category of Proust writing.

我的意思是，这些并不是关于普鲁斯特的书，但它们确实获得了大量学术关注。

I mean, it's not really books about Proust, but they do get a lot of critical attention, I'd say.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

也许甚至比其他经典作品的译本还要多。

Perhaps more than other translations even of classics.

哦，我同意。

Oh, I agree.

比如在英语中，有作家莉迪亚·戴维斯。

So in English, you've got the writer Lydia Davis, for instance.

她刚刚翻译了《在斯万家那边》。

She just translated Swan's Way.

是的

Yeah.

但这股翻译热潮自普鲁斯特作品首次出版之初或早期就开始了。

But this has been going since since the first or the early years of publication of Proust.

因此，瓦尔特·本雅明曾将部分早期卷册译成德语，这非常有趣。

So Walter Benjamin some of the early volumes into German, which is very interesting.

我直到最近才知道这件事。

I didn't know that until recently.

或者在意大利语中，娜塔莉亚·金斯伯格翻译了普鲁斯特的作品。

Or in Italian, Natalia Ginsburg translated Proust.

她本人也是一位伟大的小说家。

Who is herself a great novelist.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以她写了一本我刚读过的书，叫《家庭词典》，意大利语是Lecicofarmigliare。

So she wrote a book that I just read called Family Lexicon, Lecicofarmigliare.

这本书多次提及普鲁斯特。

This book references Proust a few times.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

它还探讨了普鲁斯特曾涉及的许多主题，关于更早时期和另一座城市。

And also treats quite a few themes that Proust has dealt with about an earlier period in a different city.

比如家庭的本质、个人语言习惯，以及犹太历史。

So the nature of family and idiolects and Jewish history as well.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

因此，在普鲁斯特的翻译与像戴维斯、本雅明和金斯堡这样的著名作家的创作之间，存在着重叠。

So there's a overlap then between translations of Proust and creative writing by all kinds of really well known writers like Davis, Benjamin, and Ginsberg.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

还有一些书，要么本身成为围绕普鲁斯特的崇拜对象，要么讲述人们痴迷于普鲁斯特的故事。

Then there are books that either are themselves fetish objects around Proust or that recount stories of people having a fetish for Proust.

有些东西对学者来说非常重要，比如普鲁斯特的全部书信都已经出版，或者现在可以看到手稿的影印本。

So there are things that are that are very important for scholars, but like the entirety of Proust's correspondence has been published, or you can now see facsimiles.

我认为你可以买到《追忆似水年华》所有手稿的影印本。

I think you can buy facsimiles of all the manuscripts of the Recherche.

这种对与普鲁斯特有关的一切事物都投入极度关注的态度。

Like that, sort of, like, intense attention to everything that ever had anything to do with Proust.

这不是一本书，但你也可以去卡纳瓦莱博物馆，参观巴黎普鲁斯特的卧室。

This is not a book, but you can also go to the Musee Cannabale and visit Proust's bedroom, basically, in Paris.

那是巴黎历史博物馆，他的卧室在巴黎历史中占据着核心位置，这本身就是一个相当离奇的前提。

That's the Museum of the History of Paris, and his bedroom has pride of place in the history of Paris, which is sort of a wild premise all by itself.

我读到过，这本书在某种程度上与韦伯的书相反，它是一本薄薄的册子，讲述了一位名叫雅克·盖兰的狂热收藏家的故事，他是一位香水制造商，靠此积累了巨额财富，并在普鲁斯特哥哥去世后，狂热地收集了他能获得的所有遗物。

I read it's the opposite of the Weber book in a way because it's a very slender volume that talks about one such obsessive collector, a man called Jacques Guerin, who is a perfume maker and very wealthy from that, and also obsessively collected everything he could acquire from Proust's brother's estate after he passed.

而他最渴望得到的，正是普鲁斯特 famously 一直穿着的那件毛皮大衣——当他退居到软木贴面的房间后，几乎就生活在这件大衣里，而他最终终于得到了它。

And sort of the the thing he wanted the most was the fur overcoat that Proust had famously, basically, lived in once he retreated into his cork lined room, and he finally was able to get his hands on it.

现在这件大衣在卡纳瓦莱博物馆展出。

And now it's on display at the Musee Cana Valley.

所以，如果你想看普鲁斯特的外套，是可以的。

So if you want to see Proust's overcoat, you can.

而且那个卧室里的许多物品都是由这位名叫雅克·盖兰的人捐赠的。

And all the a lot of those items in that bedroom were donated by this man, Jacques Guerra.

洛伦扎·福斯基尼在这本非常时尚的短书中，讲述了他痴迷的故事。

And Lorenza Foschini, in this very stylish short book, recounts the story of his obsession, basically.

是的。

Yeah.

我没读过这本书，但我记得读到过，正是多亏了盖兰，我们才得以保存下大量普鲁斯特的档案，因为他的家人原本想丢掉它们。

I've not read this book, but I I think I did read that it's thanks to Guerin that we have a lot of Proust's archive because his family wanted to get rid of it.

没错。

Yes.

很多物品原本要被扔进垃圾堆，或者卖给废品商，而他一个人挽救了大量文献，使其免于消失。

A lot of it was going to the trash heap or like the junk seller, and he sort of single handedly rescued much of it from disappearance.

是的。

Yeah.

这一切都带有一种圣物的意味，

There's something of the relic to all this, a

一种对圣洁之物的崇敬，是的。

kind of veneration of the saintly Yeah.

圣洁的物品。

Saintly objects.

你有类似的东西吗？

Do you have any of this?

你有没有这样一种愿望，比如拥有你最喜爱的作家的亲笔签名之类的？

You someone that wishes you had, I don't know, an autograph by your favorite author or something?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我也没有。

Me neither.

我完全不是这样。

I'm not at all.

我完全不理解这种冲动。

I don't I don't get this impulse at all.

我确实很感激这种痴迷，因为如果没有他，我们可能会失去大量历史信息。

I do I am thankful to this this obsessive because truly, we would have lost a lot of historical information if it weren't for him.

但与此同时，我完全没有这种冲动。

But at the same time, I don't have that impulse at all.

所以，去体验一下这个不属于我的心理状态，挺有意思的。

So it was it was interesting to sort of visit that psychic place that is not my place.

我喜欢参观作家的故居。

I do like going to writer's houses.

是的。

Yes.

我确实喜欢。

That I do like.

看看他们所看到的，看看他们窗户外的景色，诸如此类的事情。

And seeing what they saw, seeing their views from their windows, that kind of thing.

是的。

Yeah.

我真的很想有一天去诺曼底的贝勒贝克模型那里看看。

Like, I really want to go to the model for Bellebeck at some point in Normandy.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，它在女朋友那儿。

I mean, it's on girlfriend.

所以我们已经谈过了收藏、档案、传记和翻译。

So we've talked about collection, archive, biography, translation.

但当我提到金斯堡时，我也触及了普鲁斯特著作的另一个类别。

But when I mentioned Ginsberg, for example, I was also touching on another category of Proust book.

称它为这样并不太不恰当，那就是与普鲁斯特对话并探讨相似主题的写作，而我们即将谈到其中一部。

That's not too inelegant to call it that, which is writing that engages in similar themes in conversation with Proust, and we're about to talk about one of those.

但另一个重要类别是普鲁斯特作为一种生活指南。

But also a major category is Proust as a kind of life guide.

普鲁斯特是一位真正理解存在意义的作家，他能帮助我们每一个人，无论你是谁，去面对关于存在的种种感受。

Proust as a writer who has really understood what it is to exist and who can help us, whoever we are, with our feelings about existing.

因此，在关于普鲁斯特的写作中，经常出现一种陈词滥调，那就是你在书中找到了自己。

So there there is quite a frequent trope in writing about Proust, which is that you find yourself in this book.

你认出了人类痛苦的内心等等，等等。

You recognize the suffering heart of humanity, etcetera, etcetera.

但说实话，我一向觉得这种说法有点令人不适。

And I have always found that a little bit off putting, if I'm completely honest.

我想我们在这档播客里还没怎么讨论过一件事，但其实有很多理由不读普鲁斯特。

I think something we've not really talked about that much in this podcast, but there's a lot of reasons not to read Proust.

令人惊讶的是。

Surprisingly.

但我的意思是，所有这些关于他如何真正表达人类境况、他是有史以来最伟大作家的言论。

But what I mean is, all this talk about how he has truly expressed the human condition, how he is the best writer ever.

这一切都让人感到有些压力。

It's all a bit pressurizing.

而且，我天生对所有声称普遍性的说法感到些许反感，因为很容易读任何东西却看不到自己的影子。

And also, I feel a little inherently repulsed by all claims of universality because it's really easy to read anything and not see yourself in it.

不过，我要说，我们接下来要讨论的第一本书——劳尔·穆拉关于普鲁斯特的著作，是我所见过的最出色、最动人的通过普鲁斯特理解人生的著作。

However, I would say that the book that we're gonna talk about first, Laure Murat's book about Proust, is absolutely the best and most moving account of understanding life through Proust that I've come across.

是的。

Yes.

我同意。

I agree.

那么，你可能会问，这本书到底是什么？

So what is this book, you might be asking yourself?

劳尔·穆拉目前是加州大学洛杉矶分校的教授。

Laure Murat is currently a professor at UCLA.

但就她的这本书而言，更重要的是她双方祖上都是法国贵族。

But in terms of her book, it's more important that she is descended on both sides from French aristocracy.

她父亲一方是拿破仑时代的贵族。

Her father's side, Napoleonic aristocracy.

另一方则是革命前和帝国前的贵族。

The other side, pre revolution and pre empire.

她将路易十三视为祖先。

She counts as an ancestor, Louis the thirteenth.

她的出生证明上称她为公主，这让我作为一个美国人感到非常惊讶：什么？

Her birth certificate names her as a princess, which I think is like, as an American, I'm like, what?

但话说回来，尽管她出生在这样的环境中，作为一名女同性恋者，她早已与家人疏远，尽管在父母去世前，这种疏远的程度有所不同。

So but that being said, although that's the milieu she was born into, as a gay woman, she had long been estranged from her family, although it seems like to varying degrees, before her parents died.

但直到她通过普鲁斯特的小说，甚至他的生平，看到自己成长的那种高贵却空洞的阶级的折射，才真正理解了它。

But an understanding of the rarified but hollow class in which she grew up proved elusive until she found it refracted through Proust's novel, and indeed, his own life.

当我读到她的故事时，我简直不敢相信。

I couldn't believe her story when I

读到它。

read it.

我也无法相信她的名字实际上就是‘公主’。

I also couldn't believe that her name effectively is princess.

贵族阶层，尽管我是英国人，英国贵族本身也有着悠久的历史，但我总觉得他们并不真实，这一点在她的书中以有趣的方式体现出来，她将贵族描述为一种纯粹的幻想世界。

The aristocracy, even though I'm English and the British aristocracy is a storied thing itself, I kind of don't believe that they're real, which comes up in interesting ways in her book where she describes the aristocracy as this kind of world of fantasy in pure forms.

但在我们深入讨论之前，嗯。

But we should say before we really dive in Mhmm.

这本书目前仅以法语出版。

That this book is currently only available in French.

预计明年左右，企鹅出版社将出版此书，书名为《普鲁斯特：家族罗曼史》。

It should appear with Penguin in the next year or so as a Proust, A Family Romance.

希望你到时候不用读法语版，就能读到它。

Hopefully, you aren't gonna read it in French, you can read it then.

我们会在节目笔记中提供我们所讨论书籍的其他英国和美国出版社的链接。

And we'll put a link to all the other British and American publishers of the books we're discussing in the show notes.

但我们真的非常强烈推荐这本书。

But we really can't recommend it highly enough.

所以如果你不懂法语，一定要留意企鹅出版社即将推出的英文版。

So if you don't read French, do do keep an eye out for the Penguin publication in English.

既然这本书是我们整个播客项目的起点，我们为什么如此喜爱它，觉得它如此有启发性呢？

So since this is the kind of origin of of our whole podcast project, why did we love this book so much and find it so inspiring?

是什么让你对这本书如此着迷，汉娜？

What what got you about it, Hannah?

嗯，一方面，穆拉特是一位文笔优美的作家，所以我不得不提一下，她构建回忆录的方式非常独特——在个人经历、小说和档案之间自如穿梭，因为她本人和我们不同，是普鲁斯特研究的专家，并做过原创性的档案研究，这些都融入了她的作品中。

Well, I mean, in part, it was just that Murat is a beautiful writer, and so I I just don't wanna pass unnoticed that part of it is the way she constructs her memoir and moving between the personal, the novel, and then the archive, really, because she herself is, unlike us, an expert on Proust and has done her own original archival research, which she brings to bear on the novel.

但就我们今天的对话而言，我认为穆拉特真正让我豁然开朗的一点，是普鲁斯特小说与他本人生活之间的关系。

But in terms of our conversation today, I think that one thing that Murat really broke open for me was the relationship between Proust's novel and indeed Proust's life Mhmm.

还有阶级。

And class.

事实上，我觉得我们在整个系列中都没怎么讨论过这个话题，而我个人不想谈，是因为我怕自己只是在复述穆拉特的观点，因为她在这方面实在太有说服力了。

And I actually think that we didn't talk about that all that much during our series, and I I personally feel that I didn't want to talk about it because I felt like I would just end up parroting Murat because she's so compelling on the topic.

所以也许我们不如直接分享她的一些洞见，而不是试图把它们强行融入我们更大的讨论框架中。

So maybe we can just share a few of her insights rather than try, you know, trying to fold them into our larger conversations.

是的

Yeah.

我完全同意所有观点。

I do agree on all counts.

我认为她在这本书中让普鲁斯特变得非常易懂，并帮助人们克服各种心理障碍。

I think she makes Proust really accessible in this book and enables a kind of overcoming of all kinds of mental blocks.

我之前对普鲁斯特的一个心理障碍，正是她彻底驳斥的那个。

And one of the mental blocks I did have about Proust was this idea that she totally debunks Mhmm.

那就是说，这只是一场对贵族阶层的恋爱。

Which is that it's just a love affair with the aristocracy.

它完全推崇这一阶层高于其他所有阶层，本质上是一本非常势利的书。

It's it totally valorizes that class above all others, that it's a book that is very ultimately snobby.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这让我一度不想读它，但她明确指出，事实并非如此。

And that made me not want to read it, you know, but she she makes it clear that that's not the case.

她实际上说，这本书是对贵族阶级的全面揭露，是一次对

She actually says that it's a full takedown of the aristocratic class and a real oh, kind of an anatomy or autopsy of

是的。

Yeah.

一个非常腐败且功能失调的阶级结构的解剖。

A very corrupt and dysfunctional class structure.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这种印象之所以普遍存在，很大程度上是因为如果你只读第一卷，你确实会得出这样的结论。

And I think that a lot of the reason that that impression sort of floats around is that if you only read the first volume, you would have every reason to think that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

真正揭示贵族阶级核心空洞的，其实是后面的几卷。

It's really in later volumes that the hollowness at the center of the aristocracy comes to light.

嗯。

Mhmm.

基本上，穆拉特将贵族阶级解读为一种可以通过普鲁斯特的视角感知的形式。

And, basically, Murat ends up reading aristocracy as a form that is perceptible through the lens of Proust.

她写道，这是我的翻译。

She writes, and this is my translation.

她写道，文本填补了空虚。

She writes, the text filled in the emptiness.

这部小说承接了那个自以为掌握王国钥匙的世界的虚无与徒劳。

The novel took on the nothingness and futility of a world that thought it had the keys to the kingdom.

文学为曾经由无实质、无趣味的琐碎表演和华丽场景主导的地方，带来了坚定、厚重与质感。

Literature brought firmness, density, and thickness to the place where an inconsequential pantomime and a sequence of chic scenes with no meat or interest used to rule.

普鲁斯特的发展让我重新获得了对整个景观的视野。

Proust's development gave me back a view over the entire landscape.

他的退后与对事物的重新定位，让我产生了一种宇航员在太空中环绕地球、目睹地球独立漂浮于宇宙空间中的感觉，并且这种景象将永远改变我。

His steps back and his putting things in perspective gave me the impression of being an orbiting astronaut who sees autonomous Earth detach itself in intercosmic space, and who will be changed by this site forever.

太棒了。

So good.

这正是我们刚才说的，即普鲁斯特对贵族阶层采取了一种批判性的视角，同时也将他们表现为一种审美对象。

That's what we were saying, which is that he Proust takes this critical approach to the aristocracy, as well as showing them as an aesthetic object.

我认为她在这里部分想表达的是，她曾察觉到周围的人似乎在扮演某种角色，但她直到在普鲁斯特的小说中看到这些角色被浓墨重彩地呈现出来，才真正理解了这种扮演究竟是什么；随后，她得以退后一步，仿佛一名宇航员从太空中回望地球，看到的不再是身边具体个人的琐碎细节，而是一个完整的整体。

I think what she's partially saying here is that she had noticed that it felt like the people around her were in some way acting something out, but she didn't really understand what that something was until she saw it thickly represented in Proust's novel, and that she was able then to to take this, like, huge step back and almost be like an astronaut looking back at Earth and seeing, like, the whole globe as opposed to being distracted by the particularities of the exact people around her.

普鲁斯特确实是在描绘她的世界。

And Proust really was describing her world.

他与许多认识她家人或本身就是她家族成员的人有联系。

He had connections with various people who knew or were members of her family.

有一段精彩的文字，她解释了为什么热尔芒特公爵夫人实际上就是她的姑妈。

There's this amazing passage where she explains why the Duchess of Germant must in fact be her aunt.

你能想象，身处这种境地，读着这部小说，感觉它真的就是她自己的家族故事吗？

Can you imagine being in that position and and reading the novel and feeling like it really is a family story for her?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

太惊人了。

It's amazing.

我也喜欢那一章，她描述了祖父在家族城堡去世时的情景。

And I love that chapter as well, where she describes what it was like being in her family's chateau when her grandfather died there.

林林城堡？

The Chateau De Lyn Lyn?

这么说对吗？

How's that?

我想是吧。

I guess.

林，还有那些难看的家具、厚重的墙壁，还有

Lyn And the sort of, like, ugly furniture and thick walls and just

一场风暴。

sort of storm.

在风暴中，天花板正逐渐坍塌，因为是的。

In a storm while the while the while the ceiling is sort of collapsing because Yeah.

除非拥有维持城堡所需的所有租金，以及那些半奴隶般的人来维护它，否则不可能照顾好一座城堡。

It's impossible to take care of a chateau unless you have all the rents that are needed to keep it up and the sort of semi enslaved people to keep it up.

这有点像普鲁斯特作品中的某些部分，这一章带有一种童话色彩。

A bit like some of Proust, there's a fairytale aspect to that chapter.

她说，普鲁斯特的书取代了城堡，成为她可以生活的地方，而且能作为一个完整的人生活。

And what she says is that Proust's book replaces the chateau as a place where she can live, but where she can live as a full person.

不同于她成长过程中所处的贵族比利时环境。

Unlike under the aristocratic Belgian that she had to grow up in.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这让她能够重新定位，真正找到自己的方向。

I think it enables her to reorient and really find her own orientation.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

在社会和性方面。

Socially and sexually.

对。

Right.

正如我之前所说，她在这本书中为我们提供了对普鲁斯特非常有说服力且易于理解的解读。

She gives us a really compelling and accessible, as I've said already, understanding of Proust in this book.

但她也非常清楚普鲁斯特给予了她什么。

But she's also very clear then about what Proust gives her.

因此，普鲁斯特给了她一种重新思考性取向的方式。

So Proust has given her a way to rethink sexuality.

普鲁斯特给了她一种同时逃离和消化其贵族成长背景的方式。

Proust has given her a way to escape and process at the same time her aristocratic upbringing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

有一章我现在没法深入讲，但我觉得非常有趣。

There's this chapter that I can't get into now that I found it really interesting.

所以我再次强烈推荐这本书，它讲述了普鲁斯特如何赋予她理解现实的方式，因为她成长的过程中一直觉得物质与精神是完全对立的。

So I highly highly recommend, once again, this book about how Proust gave her a way of understanding reality because she'd kind of grown up in a way where she felt like the material and the spiritual were totally at odds with one another.

而普鲁斯特对存在既感性又充满精神性的描述，使她看到了二者的融合。

And Proust's sensory, but still spiritual account of existence enabled her to see their integration.

我觉得这与我们之前几期讨论的一些内容有关。

I think that's, you know, that relates some of the stuff that we talked about in earlier episodes.

我觉得这非常有趣。

I think that's really interesting.

接着，她写了一个关于普鲁斯特与慰藉的感人终章，我直到重读这本书、完成整个项目之后，才真正充分体会到它的深意。

And then she has this really moving final chapter about Proust and consolation that I'm not sure I fully appreciated until I reread it after we'd finished the whole project.

因为整个过程中，我一直把普鲁斯特看作既是悲伤的，又是令人安心的，既肯定生命，又令人不安。

Because throughout, I was thinking about Proust as both sad and reassuring, life affirming and upsetting.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但她谈到，普鲁斯特给予了她慰藉，尽管他似乎拒绝了慰藉这一整个概念。

But she talks about how Proust offered her consolation, although he seems to refuse the whole concept of it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他并没有试图修复或以某种方式掩盖痛苦或悲伤，而是将其转化为一项工程。

And that is through rather than trying to mend or somehow obfuscate pain or grief, he turns it into a project.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我第一次真正注意到书名中的那个词。

Which for me brought the word in the title into relief for almost the first time.

我一直以来都过于专注于‘逝去的时间’了。

I've been so fixated on lost time Right.

所以我并没有真正思考过‘追寻’这件事。

That I wasn't really thinking about the searching.

但实际上，她最后以这样的描述收尾：渴望了解某物意味着什么，而这种追寻、这种行动本身，就可以成为一种慰藉，她称之为‘求知的欲力’。

But actually, she concludes with this account of what it is to want to know something and how that seeking, that searching, and the action of it can be its own consolation, a form of libido that she calls libido siendi.

她说，这就是普鲁斯特救了她的原因。

And she says that's how Proust saved her.

我读到那里时，心想：哦。

And I read that, and I was like, oh.

这不仅仅是寻找。

It's not just searching.

对吧？

Right?

它还像是研究。

It's also like researching.

是的。

Yeah.

对知识的渴望本身就可以成为一种慰藉。

That the desire for knowledge can be its own consolation.

而作为学术研究者，我们或许尤其能体会到这一点。

And perhaps we particularly appreciate that as academic researchers.

可能是吧。

Perhaps.

但无论如何，我觉得现在有种说法是，人们做研究是为了逃避自己的情绪，或者说逃避……你懂的，直面事实、挖掘历史真相，总要比真正承受悲痛这类事情要容易得多。

But regardless, I think there is sort of a an idea out there that people do research because they're avoiding their emotions or avoiding their, you know it's easier to look at facts and excavate historical realities than it is to really go through grief or something like that.

但实际上，她在普鲁斯特的作品里发现这两件事并不冲突，因此对她本人来说，这两者也并不矛盾。

But actually, she's showing that in Proust, those two are not incompatible, and that therefore, for her, they're also not incompatible.

所以说到底，并非只有严格意义上的学术研究者才会追求知识。

So it's not just academics after all, or in the formal sense, who seek knowledge.

稍后我们将转向另一位作家，她以自己的方式追寻逝去的时光，部分是为了回应巨大的创伤。

And in a second, we're gonna turn to another writer who's searching in her own way for for lost time, partly as a response to huge devastation.

首先，《好奇》节目由我们与公共图书合作呈现，这是一个关于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。

First Curious is brought to you in partnership with Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

您可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。

You can find us at publicbooks.org.

网址是 publicbooks.org。

That's publicbooks.org.

如果想要为Public Books捐款，请访问publicbooks.org/donate。

To donate to Public Books, visit publicbooks.org/donate.

你刚刚提到的这本新书，艾玛，是杰出的俄罗斯诗人玛丽亚·斯捷潘诺娃创作的散文式回忆录，书名叫《记忆的记忆》。

So this next book that you just mentioned, Emma, is essayistic memoir by the tremendous Russian poet Maria Stepanova called In Memory of Memory.

这本作品同样出色的诗人萨沙·达格代尔翻译成了英文。

It has been translated by the glorious poet in her own right, Sasha Dugdale, into English.

而玛丽亚·斯捷潘诺娃本人的英语也十分流利，她和达格代尔合作完成了这次翻译工作。

And Maria Stepanova is also fluent in English and and had collaborated with Dugdale on this translation.

那这本书讲了什么呢？

So what is it?

简单来说，在这本书里，斯捷潘诺娃通过自己那普通的犹太资产阶级家庭留下的零碎物件、对绘画与摄影的深入研究、对百年前信件的誊抄，以及走访前苏联时期的偏远城镇和如今的欧洲城市，去探寻自己的家族史，也可以说是追寻逝去的时间。

Basically, in this book, Stepanova goes in search of her family history or maybe lost time through ephemera from her ordinary bourgeois Jewish family, intensive study of painting and photography, transcription of century old letters, and visits to far flung towns of the former Soviet Union and current European cities.

和普鲁斯特不同，斯捷潘诺娃得出的结论是，逝去的时间永远无法被有意义地找回，事实上，不去干预它或许才是最好的选择。

Unlike Proust, Stepanova concludes that lost time can never be meaningfully recovered, and in fact, might best be left to its own devices.

艾玛，你读这本书的时候有什么感受？

Emma, how is this book for you?

我的意思是，谢谢你推荐我读这本书，就像之前推荐我读穆拉特那本一样。

I mean, I want to thank you for telling me to read it, just like with the Murat.

这本书读起来太棒了，非常深刻，极具感染力。

It is an incredible read, very intense, very evocative.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我花了很长时间才读完，而且读得断断续续，因为时不时就会停下来惊呼：天哪。

It took me quite a long time to read it, and I read it in quite staccato way because I kept stopping to be like, oh my god.

我想部分原因是玛丽亚·斯捷潘诺娃本质上是一位诗人。

Well, I think some of that is that is that Maria Stepanova is, like, she's mostly a poet.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得她的散文充满诗意，非常凝练，需要像读诗一样细细品味。

And so I do think that her prose is, like, densely poetic and rewards the sort of close attention that you might normally give to a poem.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的非常感人。

It's really moving.

我读的时候处于一种高度情绪化、非常美好的状态中。

I read it in a state of, I guess, I'll just say heightened emotion and very beautiful.

它讲述了二十世纪犹太人、俄罗斯人和乌克兰人的历史。

It's an account of Jewish, Russian, and Ukrainian history in the twentieth century.

这是一部关于毁灭与生存的历史。

So history that is both of annihilation and survival.

它也是一部关于作为有家庭之人的人生历史。

It's also a history of being a person with a family.

是的。

Yeah.

重建过去的日常，深刻思考我们记住谁、如何记住、为何记住他们。

Recovering the ordinary of the past, thinking so deeply about who we remember, how we remember, why we remember them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想读一段她对塞巴尔特的引述，因为她确实广泛涉猎了许多作家，比如普鲁斯特等等。

I'd like to read a brief quotation that's from her own reading of Seibalt because she does engage with many, many like Proust, many, many different writers Mhmm.

贯穿整本书。

Throughout this book.

她写道：没有奇迹。

She writes, there is no miracle.

我们眼前的一切，包括我们自己，都将消逝，而且不会花太久。

Everything we see before us, including ourselves, will disappear and it won't take long.

所以别无选择。

So there is no choice.

任何物体、命运或人都值得被铭记，在一切最终陷入黑暗之前，再次在光中闪现一次。

Any object or fate or person deserves to be remembered, to flicker once again in the light before all is finally dark.

因此，她如此细致地思考着记忆的行为——谁被纪念。

So she's thinking so carefully about the act of memory remembering who gets memorialized.

我的意思是，这也很有趣。

I mean, it's also quite funny.