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你好，欢迎收听《普鲁斯特好奇》，这是与《公共书籍》合作的播客。
Hello, and welcome to Proust Curious, a podcast in partnership with Public Books.
我是Emma Claussen，剑桥大学三一学院的早期现代文学研究者。
I'm Emma Claussen, an early modernist at Trinity College Cambridge.
我是Hannah Weaver，哥伦比亚大学中世纪文学助理教授，目前担任思想与想象力研究所的研究员。
And I'm Hannah Weaver, an assistant professor of medieval literature at Columbia University and currently a fellow at the Institute for Ideas and Imagination.
《普鲁斯特好奇》是一档关于阅读普鲁斯特七卷本作品的播客，这些作品写于1906年至1922年间，出版于1913年至1927年，作为文化里程碑，普鲁斯特的作品始终令人着迷，也难免让人望而生畏。
Proust Curious is a podcast about the experience of reading all seven volumes, written between nineteen o six and 1922, published between 1913 and 1927, Marcel Proust's cultural touchstone is an object of enduring fascination and, let's face it, intimidation.
我们并不是普鲁斯特专家，但我们以研究文学为生。
We're not Proust experts, but we do study literature for a living.
因此，我们既觉得自己不够格，又觉得自己足够胜任来挑战这部作品。
So we feel both under and overqualified to tackle this.
加入我们，一起寻找逝去的时光。
Join us as we search for lost time.
并且，普鲁斯特，记住这些事。
And remember things, Proust.
今天，我们要讨论系列中的第二卷，斯科特·蒙克里夫将其略显迂回地译为《在盛开的树林中》，而克里斯托弗·彭德加斯特则译为《在开花少女的阴影下》。
Today, we're talking about the second volume in the series, translated slightly obliquely by Scott Moncrieff as within a budding grove and by Christopher Prendergast as in the shadow of young girls in flower.
在这一卷中，我们看到叙述者进入青春期后期，实现了他在第一卷中的一些抱负，比如去剧院、会见他最喜爱的作家，以及去海边度假。
In this volume, we see the narrator in later adolescence, maybe, realizing a number of the ambitions he held in volume one, namely going to the theater, meeting his favorite writer, and going on vacation to the seaside.
他不再迷恋他的第一个重要暗恋对象吉尔贝特，并遇到了下一个心仪的对象阿尔贝·苏纳。
He falls out of love with his first major crush, Gilbert, and meets his next one, Albert Soonna.
在此期间，他接触到了超越童年世界的社会层面。
In between, he encounters social worlds beyond those of his childhood.
尽管他结识了更多艺术家，对文化有了更深的理解，却始终未能写出任何自己的作品。
And though he meets more artists and gains a greater understanding of culture, he continually fails to write anything himself.
或者更简单地说，这一卷中，叙述者沉迷于他人，并一步步靠近他们，或试图成为他们那样的人。
Or put more simply, in this volume, the narrator gets obsessed with people and inches his way towards being with them or being like them.
这真的是一部关于暗恋的卷册。
This is really, really a volume of the crush.
确实如此。
That's so true.
这本书
The book
是关于迷恋的。
of the crush.
这是一本关于迷恋的书。
It is the book of the crush.
叙述者迷恋上很多人和事物。
The narrator crushes on a lot of people and things.
他迷恋着大海。
He's crushing on the sea.
他迷恋着海边看到的树木。
He's crushing on trees that he sees near the sea.
确实如此。
That's true.
他想迷恋教堂，但它们总让他失望。
He's he wants to crush on churches, but they keep disappointing him.
我想他的那些倾慕对象也是如此。
I guess so do his crushes.
所以实际上，也许这仅仅是
So actually, maybe that's just
是的。
Yeah.
因此，我们可以称之为‘倾慕与被倾慕的卷册’。
So we could call it the volume of having crushes and being crushed.
倾慕的卷册。
The volume of crushing.
对。
Yeah.
但是，艾玛，在我们更详细地讨论‘卷册’之前，该进入我们来自著名的普鲁斯特问卷的问题了，这个问卷普鲁斯特在13岁和20岁时分别回答过，并被《名利场》用作访谈工具。
But, Emma, before we talk in more detail about the volume, it's time for our question from the famous Proust Questionnaire, which was answered by Proust twice at ages 13 and 20 and used as an interview device by Vanity Fair.
我们会在节目笔记中提供问卷的链接
We'll put a link to the questionnaire in the show notes in
以防你想要看看。
case you want to see it.
所以我们这周的问题是：你最喜欢的美德是什么？
So our question this week is, what is your favorite virtue?
我个人在13岁时回答过这个问题，他的答案是：那些不属于某一特定群体的、普遍的美德。
And personally, answered this one once when he was 13, and his answer was, which is to say, all those that are not particular to one set, the universal ones.
对。
Right.
所以
So
艾玛，你怎么看？
Emma, what do you think?
你最喜欢的美德是什么？
What's your favorite virtue?
我最喜欢的美德可能会让我听起来有点严肃。
My favorite virtue is gonna make me sound a bit intense.
我的 favorite virtue 是坚持到底，但我不太确定该怎么表达。
My and I don't exactly know how to phrase it, but my favorite virtue is like follow through.
就是说到做到。
It's showing up.
就是做你答应过要做的事。
It's doing what you said you were gonna do.
好的。
Okay.
所以也许可以总结为可靠性。
So maybe it could be summed up as reliability.
我认为，就像亚里士多德可能会说的，任何美德如果走得太远，都会变成恶习。
And I think, as an Aristotelian might say, any virtue can tip into into vice if you take it too far enough.
别以为亚里士多德要出场了。
Think not Aristotle is making a cameo.
对。
Right.
继续。
Continue.
对。
Yes.
错误。
Erdition.
那就是错误。
That's erdition.
那是宝洁公司的那种能量。
That's the P and G energy.
另一个可能变成缺点的美德。
Another another virtue that can become a vice.
可靠性。
Reliability.
如果你对它的定义过于狭隘，并且期望所有人随时随地都以同一种方式做到，那你最终就会变得很讨人厌。
If you really have a very narrow definition of it and you expect it in one way from all people at all times, then you just end up being a dick.
你知道的。
You know?
你也得灵活一点。
You have to be flexible as well.
你得
You have
理解。
to understand.
不同的人有不同的标准，对时间也有不同的要求。
Different people have different standards, different demands on their time.
此外，为了保持可靠，我有时真的把自己逼入了深深的疲惫之中。
Also, by trying to be reliable, sometimes I really push myself into, like, deep deep pit of exhaustion.
整体上。
In whole.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以说实话，这是混合的。
So it's mixed, honestly.
不过，这确实是一种美德。
It's a good virtue, though.
我的意思是，关于美德这件事很难说，你知道吗？我为了准备这个作业查过一份美德清单，它们全都让人无法反驳。
I mean, it's hard to the thing about virtues is, you know, I looked up a list of virtues to prepare for this assignment, and they're all it's like impossible to argue with any of them.
比如说，尊重。
It's like, ah, respect.
我讨厌尊重。
I hate respect.
你懂我的意思吧？
Like, you know what I mean?
我找到的清单里唯一可能值得商榷的是‘恐惧’，我只能假设这指的是对上帝的敬畏，否则根本说不通。
It's just only one on the list I found that is perhaps questionable is fear, which I can only assume means fear of God because otherwise it makes zero sense.
但它仍然是个例外。
But it's still it's it's still an outlier.
其余的都是像乐于助人这样的品质。
All the rest of them are like helpfulness.
是的。
Yeah.
很难对很多其他品质提出异议。
Hard to argue with a lot
还有一些是混合的，比如美。
of other ones that are mixed, like beauty.
我想是这样，
I guess,
可能也算一种美德。
could be a virtue.
内在和外在的都包括在内。
Inner and outer and all that.
是的。
Yeah.
但总的来说，我选了这一个，因为我觉得可以跟我们的听众分享。
But overall, I went for this one because I thought, you know, I would share with our listeners.
嗨，如果你在外面的话。
Hi, if you're if you're out there.
我的性格小缺点。
My character foibles.
说实话。
Honestly.
我认为这正是关键所在，让我们的听众能感觉他们了解我们。
I think that's the whole point, is so our listeners can feel like they know us.
他们在遛狗或做其他事情的时候，能跟我们建立一种拟社会关系。
They can have parasocial relationships with us as they're walking their dog or what have you.
你最喜欢的美德是什么，汉娜？
What is your favorite virtue, Hannah?
我最喜欢的美德或许同样揭示了我的缺点。
My favorite virtue is perhaps equally telling and also a foible.
那就是谦逊，因为没有什么比自我吹嘘更令人难以忍受的了。
And it is humility because there's nothing more insufferable than self aggrandizement.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这一点无可争议。
I mean, that's inarguable.
那我就说到这里了，显然。
I'm just gonna leave it there, apparently.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，我再补充一点，你知道，在学术界——也许在许多其他领域也是如此——但特别是在学术界，坚持这一点真的很重要。
Oh, I'll just add that, you know, in academia I mean, maybe in lots of different walks of life, but in academia, it's really important to hold on to that one.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这是真的。
It's true.
我认为一般来说，我更容易被那些有成就却谦逊的人所打动和吸引，而不是那些有成就却到处宣扬的人。
I think just in general, I think I'm so much more impressed and charmed by someone who is accomplished yet humble than I am by someone who is accomplished yet shouting it from the rooftops.
更不用说那些平庸却自吹自擂的人了。
Not to mention those who are mediocre and yet proclaiming their accomplishments.
但这么说让我听起来相当苛刻，而这显然不是一种美德。
But that is all making me sound rather judgmental, which is certainly not a virtue.
所以也许我们该就此打住，转到今天真正的主题上。
So perhaps we should stop there and turn to the real subject of the day.
第二卷中会发生什么，
What happens in the second volume of Well,
简而言之，这一卷分为大致相等的两部分。
in brief, this volume is divided into two parts of roughly equal length.
在第一部分中，叙述者仍身处巴黎，终于融入了他暗恋的对象吉尔贝·索安的家庭生活，索安的父母是奥黛特·德·克雷西和索安。
In the first, the narrator is still in Paris, finally infiltrates the family life of his big crush, Gilbert Soin, whose parents are Odette de Crecy and Soin.
在第二部分中，叙述者与祖母前往诺曼底的海滨小镇博贝克，在那里他遇到了一系列对整个作品至关重要的角色。
In the second part, the narrator goes with his grandmother to the Norman seaside town, Baubex, where he meets a parade of characters central to the project as a whole.
艾玛，你对第二卷有什么看法？
Emma, what did you think about volume two?
你注意到了什么？
What did you notice?
其中一些部分，我非常喜欢。
So parts of it, I completely loved.
但为了诚实起见，而且因为我们一再强调，我们做这件事纯粹是为了享受，嗯。
But in the interest of honesty, and because we have emphasized so much up to this point that we are doing this for pleasure Mhmm.
我也得承认，有些部分对我来说确实有些拖沓。
I have to say that some parts did drag for me as well.
在第二部分开头附近，叙述者感到有些忧郁，他说：你知道，爱的人和享受快乐的人并不是同一类人。
There's a moment near the beginning of the second part where the narrator is feeling a bit doleful and he says, oh, you know, those who love and those who experience pleasure are not the same people.
我觉得有些时候我心想，总的来说我很喜欢这部作品，但其实我并没有完全投入其中。
And I think there were moments where I was like, well, I think overall I love this, but I'm not loving it.
尤其是第一部分，我觉得有必要提一下，它原本是打算作为第一卷的结尾的。
Especially part one, which I think is worth saying that it was initially meant to be the end of volume one.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是奥黛特与斯万在那个阶段故事的完成。
This is it's kind of the completion of the story of Odette and Swan for the in that phase.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那一部分的一些内心独白，有些我觉得非常精彩，有些则觉得或许只有身临其境才能体会。
Some of the internal reflections in that part, There were parts of them that I found really brilliant and parts where I thought maybe you had to be there.
比如当他遇见自己最喜爱的作家布尔戈时，有一段很长的分析，探讨布尔戈的写作风格以及这种风格是如何形成的。
Like, when when he meets Burgott, his favorite writer, and there's a long extended analysis of Burgott's style and how how he how his style came to be his specific one.
是的。
Yeah.
我肯定这是经过深入研究的。
I'm sure that is incredibly studied.
这非常值得分析。
It's really ripe for analysis.
但要真正沉浸其中，也许你必须是这位被模仿的作家的粉丝，或者以文学评论家的视角来阅读和思考。
But to read maybe you have to be a fan of the writer who this is modeled on to be or to be thinking about this really as a literary critic to write about, to be really engrossed in it.
我不知道。
I don't know.
也许是我太庸俗了。
Maybe that's me being a Philistine.
也许这和我读第一部分的时间和方式有关，当时我正处于非常忙碌和压力大的时期，读得相当慢。
Maybe it's to do with with how and when I read the first part, which was pretty slowly during a really busy and stressful time.
我得流感时读了大部分第二部分，但那段时间我享受得多得多。
I read most of the second part when I had flu, but I enjoyed that a lot more.
是的。
Yeah.
天哪。
Oh gosh.
可怜的艾玛。
Poor Emma.
可怜的我。
Poor me.
至于叙述者，就像对他一样，搬到海边对我有很大好处。
As for the narrator, the as it did for him, the move to the seaside did me a lot of good.
我真的很喜欢第二部分。
I really loved the sec the second part.
所以，是的，我认为思考愉悦意味着也要谈论那些你不喜欢的东西。
So, yeah, I do think thinking about pleasure means talking about things you don't like as well as those you do.
那你觉得怎么样？
So how did you find it?
是的。
Yeah.
我同意你对愉悦的看法，也同意你对整本书的整体评价。
I agree about pleasure, and I agree with you about the volume as a whole.
关于吉尔伯特决定再也不见她之后，她回避他时所产生的种种感受，那些无穷无尽的段落——我今天重新读了一遍，但第二次阅读时依然没有更清楚。
The infinite paragraphs on the sensations produced by avoiding Gilbert after he decides to never see her again, after a truly baffling slight I I revisited this today, and it was no clearer on on on a second reading.
是的。
Yeah.
他们在一个雨天尴尬地喝了茶。
They have an awkward tea in the on a rainy day.
他们在一个雨天尴尬地喝了茶。
They have an awkward tea on a rainy day.
吉尔伯特本更想去跳舞，而她却被母亲挽留了。
Gilbert would have preferred to go dancing, and she's retained by her mother.
他们进行了这场尴尬的茶会，而叙述者似乎意识到，她其实并不像他爱她那样爱着他。
And they have this awkward tea, and it it seems like the narrator realizes that she doesn't, in fact, love him in the same way that he loves her.
但这一认知却让他突然决定再也不见她，这非常突然，因为在此之前，根本没有真正的预警信号。
But that realization causes him to decide never to see her again, which is very sudden because up until then, there was no real there was no real warning sign.
然后他对此反复絮叨了上百万页。
And then he perseverates about it for a zillion pages.
我有点夸张了，但对我来说，感觉就是这样。
I'm exaggerating, but I just that's that's how it felt to me.
那感觉非常泥泞。
It was very boggy.
‘泥泞’这个词简直太贴切了。
Boggy is absolutely the right word.
某种程度上，他等着她主动联系他，你知道的？
And in some ways, he's waiting for her to call him back, you know?
所以他做了一件很人性的事：感到受伤，希望对方先主动联系。
So he's doing a very human thing of feeling a bit wounded and wanting the other person to get in touch first.
但奇怪的是
But it But the weird thing
后来发现她其实发了短信，但他真正想要的，是一通漫长闲聊的电话。
is that it's revealed that she it has texting, but he really wanted, like, a long chatty phone call.
所以他一直在喋喋不休地说他们根本不互相交流。
So it's just he's he's going on and on about how they're not they don't talk to each other.
然后突然间，他提到：当然，她每天都给我写信。
And then all of a sudden, it's like, of course, I did get letters from her every day.
只不过那些信并不是他所期待的那种情感倾诉式的信件。
It's just like but they were they were not the sort of emotional confessional letters that he wished for.
是的。
Yeah.
他简直太反常了。
He's been incredibly perverse.
总之。
Anyway
对。
Yes.
但让我觉得有趣的是，这本是我认为自己读过好几遍的书之一。
But I do what was interesting for me is that this is this is one of the volumes that I've read, I think, several times at this point.
有些事情，感觉就像重逢老友。
And so certain things, it felt like seeing an old friend.
这些画面尤其生动，尤其是当他抵达巴贝克时，他的卧室里有玻璃门的书架，海面的倒影映在上面，这段描写美得让我至今难以忘怀。
They're especially vivid images, these moments where when he gets to Baabek, his bedroom has glass fronted bookcases, and the sea is reflected on them in this really beautiful passage that I, for some reason, has have truly never forgotten.
在巴贝克的第一个晚上，他担心半夜无法叫醒祖母、引起她的注意，于是他们练习敲墙，确保能互相听见。
That first night in Baabek, he's nervous that he wouldn't be able to get his grandmother in the middle of the night, get her attention, and so they practice knocking on the wall to make sure they can hear each other.
他的朋友罗伯特·圣路易斯出现了，他第一次见到圣路易斯时，他的单片眼镜像一束微光在他眼前闪烁，忽明忽暗。
His friend, Robert Saint Louis, shows up, and his first sight of Saint Louis, his monocle is, like, flitting in front of him, this little point of light that sort of bounces off of him.
另外，顺便提一句。
And I also just side note.
我的意思是，圣路易斯当时多大？
I mean, how old is Saint Louis here?
大概二十岁左右吧。
Like, maybe 20.
一个二十岁的年轻人居然戴着单片眼镜到处走，这真是特定时代才有的景象。
Just the idea that a 20 year old is, like, marching around with a monocle is just such a a place in time.
我觉得，当你看到戴着单片眼镜的人的肖像时，他们通常年纪较大。
I feel like when you see portraits, etcetera, of people with monocles, they tend to be older.
对我来说，单片眼镜似乎属于中年或更年长的人，所以想象一个如此年轻的男子戴着单片眼镜，画面非常鲜明。
I just pick monocles to me seemed like something of middle age and older, and so to picture a quite young man the monocled was very vivid.
是的。
Yeah.
他充满活力地大步走进来，仿佛跟着那个单片眼镜前进。
With such dynamism, he's, like, striding in kind of following this monocle leading the way.
没错。
That's right.
就连那单片眼镜也仿佛在他面前晃动。
Even the monocle is, like, in in front of him, bouncing in front of him.
在这本书中，你特别注意到哪些主题或段落让你印象深刻？
What did you notice in particular in this volume in terms of themes or passages that really caught your eye?
是的。
Yeah.
我在阅读这本书时，一直在思考仪式、重复与新奇性。
So I was thinking a lot about ritual and repetition and novelty when I was I was reading this.
我的意思是，书中有很多这样的时刻，是的。
I mean, there's a number of moments when yes.
叙述者在第二卷中一直处于一种极为兴奋的状态。
The narrator spends the second volume really in quite an ecstatic state.
他很快乐。
He's happy.
到了结尾，他不断说，是的，我过上了全新的生活。
And towards the end, he keeps saying, yeah, I'm living I I lived a new life.
因此，这种重复性的主题变奏与新奇、发现之间存在着一种互动。
So there is this kind of interplay between repetitious kind of repeated variations on a theme and kind of novelty novelty and discovery.
这与他对自己身份的认知有关。
And that is to do with his kind of sense of self.
你知道，他也有不少段落谈到自己的自我已经死去。
You know, he's got kind of more reverse passages where he talks about his self has died.
他的自我，某种版本的自己，在吉贝尔特身上死去，这非常戏剧化，但也没办法。
His self one version of himself dies with gibbert, which is very melodramatic, but okay.
这太疯狂了。
It's crazy.
但接着，你明白的，重新开始，这不仅仅关乎个人之间的一对一关系，还关乎世界与社会，因为他正在学习事物是如何运作的。
But then, you know, starting again and that is not just about personal one on one relationships, but it's about the world and society because he is learning how how things work.
在某处，有一段非常有趣且相当阴暗的关于社会万花筒的描述。
And at one point, there's a really interesting and quite dark passage about social social kaleidoscope.
所以，这是叙事声音感觉非常像年长叙述者，或与天真孩童或成长中的青少年截然不同的声音的时刻之一。
So this is one of those moments where the narrative voice feels very much like the older narrator or kind of different different voice to the naive child or growing adolescent.
但我要说，抱歉，这是个离题，但我很喜欢普鲁斯特如何掌控语调，因为你能在这两个部分中听到一位年长、衰老者的声音。
But I will say, sorry, this is a digression, but I love how Proust is managing the tone because you can hear the voice of a older and an aging person across across these two parts.
但在这里，这种声音更像一个人在反思自己过去的生活。
But here, the voice is more about somebody reflecting on their past life.
嗯。
Mhmm.
他在思考那些人，而这其实完全是事后之见。
And he's thinking about how the people in and and it's all about hindsight, really.
是的。
Mhmm.
他在思考那些沉迷于社交结构和习惯的人，实际上。
And he's thinking about how the people who are obsessed with their social formations and habits, actually.
是的。
Mhmm.
他们以为自己不会改变，却没意识到自己终将经历无法预测的惊人变化。
And who think that they are unchanging don't realize that they will change and are subject to shocking change that they can't necessarily predict.
对。
Right.
这是一个相当令人不安的情节，因为它围绕着反犹主义的讨论展开。
And this is quite a threatening episode because it's kind of structured around a discussion of antisemitism.
因此，叙述者说，生活在那种氛围中的人们以为，永远不可能邀请机会主义者，更不用说可怕的激进分子参加他们的聚会，这种状况会像油灯和马车一样永恒不变。
So the narrator says, the people who lived in such an atmosphere imagined that the impossibility of ever inviting an opportunist and still more a horrid radical to their parties was something that would endure forever like oil lamps and horse drawn omnibuses.
但就像万花筒，时不时地转动一下，社会就会将那些本以为永恒不变的元素重新排列成不同的顺序，形成新的图案。
But like a kaleidoscope, which is every now and then given a turn, society arranges successively in different orders elements which one would have supposed to be immovable and composes a fresh pattern.
于是他谈到，在他所思考的那个时代，犹太人已经深深融入社会并拥有相当大的影响力。
So then he talks about how I this is he's saying that at the time that he's thinking about, Jewish people are quite integrated and powerful in society.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但后来发生了德雷福斯事件，一名犹太军官被指控犯有叛国罪，尽管他最终被宣告无罪。
But then things change with the Dreyfus affair, which was the prosecution of a Jewish military officer supposedly for treason, although he was eventually exonerated.
但这一事件引发了丑闻，社会因此分裂为支持和反对德雷福斯的两派。
But it created a scandal and society kind of divided into pro and anti Dreyfus people.
于是他说，德雷福斯案带来了另一次这样的转变。
So then he says, the Dreyfus case brought about another, so another one of these changes.
在我开始去德·斯旺夫人家之后的某个稍晚时期，万花筒再次散开了它那些彩色的小碎片。
At a period rather later than that in which I began to go to Madame de Swans, And the kaleidoscope scattered once again its little scraps of color.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我觉得这一点非常引人注目。
I found that very striking.
我认为这是贯穿这两卷书的一个主题。
And I think that's a kind of motif of the of of across the two volumes.
我们之前讨论过它们之间的差异，但我认为我们能看到不同方式下的万花筒式转变。
So we talked about how they're quite separate, but I think we see kind of kaleidoscopic shifts happening in different ways.
我的意思是，我不想让汉娜你感到为难，但我恰好听到汉娜用万花筒本身作为思考文化变迁的一种启发性比喻，讲得非常精彩。
I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot here, Hannah, but I happened to hear Hannah give a really brilliant account of kind of using the kaleidoscope herself as a a kind of heuristic for thinking about cultural change.
所以我想知道，你对这个庞大的万花筒还有什么更多要说的吗？或者你有没有注意到这里类似的其他现象？
So I wonder if you have anything more to say about this this voluminous kaleidoscope or if you noticed any kind of similar similar things here.
我正在做一个项目，思考万花筒作为文学史的一种隐喻。
I've been working on a project where I'm thinking about the kaleidoscope as sort of almost an a metaphor for literary history.
但普鲁斯特真正谈论的是人际关系如何以万花筒般的方式变化。
But what Proust is really talking about is the kaleidoscopic way that interpersonal relationships can change.
他巧妙地运用了万花筒这个意象，因为这里的意思是，某种外部力量扭转了光学结构，使水晶碎片被搅动、散落、重新排列。
And he's really clever in how he uses the kaleidoscope because the idea here is that something external twists the the optics and the crystals get shaken up and fallen and fall around.
他暗示，德雷福斯事件正是如此：这一序列改变了水晶的位置，使它们分离后再以不同的模式重新聚集。
And that that is what happens with the Dreyfus affair he's suggesting is that that sequence has shifted the crystals who then separate and recongregate in different motifs.
我认为，尽管他在整部小说中并没有像在这段文字中那样反复使用‘万花筒’这个词，但他确实在思考元素的重组，以及光学视角——这些对他在这整卷作品中都是至关重要的隐喻。
I think that although he doesn't use the word kaleidoscope throughout the novel in the same way that he does in this particular passage, he's definitely thinking about elements rearranging and optics kind of through those are really crucial metaphors for him in this entire volume.
对他而言，这不仅发生在个体身上，也发生在他的迷恋对象身上。
This happens with individuals for him and also with his crushes.
因此，当他逐渐了解贝戈特时，他反思了人的多变性，以下是蒙克里夫修订版的译文。
So when he is in the process of getting to know Abbedin, he reflects on the changeful nature of people, and here is the revised Moncrieff translation.
一个人呈现在我们面前的优缺点，暴露在其面容表面，如果我们从另一个角度去观察，它们会以完全不同的顺序重新排列。
The good and bad qualities which a person presents to us, exposed to view on the surface of his or her face, rearrange themselves in a totally different order if we approach them from another angle.
就像一座城镇中的建筑，从一个角度看似乎杂乱无章地排成一线，但从另一个角度看，它们却退入渐远的层次，彼此的相对高度也随之改变。
Just as in a town, buildings that appear strung irregularly along a single line from another aspect retire into a graduated distance, and their relative heights are altered.
他接着又多说了一点。
He goes on a little bit.
但唯有在经历了摸索之后，认清了最初印象中的视觉错觉，我们才可能真正准确地了解另一个人——假设这种了解终究是可能的。
But thus it can be only after one has recognized, not without having had to feel one's way, the optical illusions of one's first impression that one can arrive at an exact knowledge of another person, supposing such knowledge to ever be possible.
但事实并非如此。
But it is not.
因为虽然我们对他的最初印象会得到修正，但这个人本身并非静物，他自身也在变化。
For while our original impression of him undergoes correction, the person himself, not being an inanimate object, changes in himself.
我们以为已经抓住了他，他却移动了；当我们以为终于能清晰地看见他时，实际上我们只是让早已形成的旧印象变得更加清晰，而这些印象早已不再代表他。
We think that we have caught him, he moves, and when we imagine that at last we are seeing him clearly, it is only the old impressions which we had already formed of him that we have succeeded in making clearer when they no longer represent him.
我认为这段文字触及了这一点，并进一步发展了这一主题。
And I think that this passage gets at it kind of develops the motif.
这段文字在小说中比你的那段要晚得多，它揭示了这一过程的两个方面。
It's much later in the novel than your passage, Emma, and brings into play that there are two sides of this process.
一方面是自我内部的重新评估。
There's the side of reevaluation within oneself.
换句话说，回到你的那段话，一方面是沙龙决定接纳谁，另一方面是被评估的对象自身也在经历持续的内在重新评估。
So in other words, there's the side of to refer back to your passage, there's the side of the salon deciding whom they are going to include, and there's the side of the object of their evaluation, which itself is going through a process of internal continual process of internal reevaluation.
换句话说，任何作为研究对象的人类都如此易变，以至于在某种意义上是无法真正被理解的。
In other words, any human object of study is so mutable as to be unlearnable in a way, unseasable.
我特别喜欢这个观点：我们对所有人的认知都是视觉错觉。
And I love the idea that all of our perceptions of people are optical illusions.
我觉得这既令人沮丧，却又真实。
I I just think it's both disheartening and true.
是的。
Yeah.
我很喜欢你对这一点的阐释。
I love the way you've accounted for this.
我深受这些社会世界或沙龙中双重动态的触动——法国社会的边界如同万花筒般不断扭曲，与此同时，其中的元素也在不断旋转或变化。
I I'm really struck by these, like, double movements of the social world or the salon, the border French society twisting like a kaleidoscopic image at the same time as the elements within it are also twisting and or or shifting.
在这本书的几个地方，他提到过另一个偏爱的意象，我就不逐字引用了，那就是照片底片。
A little a few times in this volume, and I won't read any of the citations, but another preferred image for him is that of the photographic negative.
当你在经历某件事时，你所做的类似于相机拍摄底片的过程，但只有在后期冲洗底片并印出照片时，你才能真正理解你所经历的一切。
That when you're experiencing something, what you're doing is akin to what the camera does when it makes a negative, but it's only later in developing that negative and then making a print that you can understand what it is that you experience.
因为正如我们这个年纪的人都知道的，看一张照片底片可能会让人困惑，尽管它确实包含了照片最终呈现的所有视觉信息。
Because as you as anyway, anyone our age knows, looking at a photographic negative can be sort of baffling even though it does in fact contain all the visual information that the that the photograph will.
需要时间和处理过程才能让这一点显现出来。
It takes the time and process of development to have that come out.
所以这显然是一个不同的比喻，因为底片是固定的，只需以特定方式投射光线，就能将其转移到另一张纸上。
So that's obviously a different figure in that a negative is is fixed, and it's just a matter of projecting light through it in such a way that it that it is transferred onto a different paper.
但我觉得，底片和万花筒这两个比喻之间仍共享着一种‘反转’的理念。
But there's still this idea of inversion that I think is shared between the figure of the negative and the figure of the kaleidoscope.
意思是，最初的东西并非最终的结果。
The idea of that the first thing is not the last thing.
我不知道。
I don't know.
这让我想起《高文爵士与绿骑士》中的一句话，为了那些不懂中古英语方言的朋友，我来翻译一下。
This is reminding me of a line from Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which says, And just for those of you who don't speak an obscure dialect of Middle English, I'll translate.
一年渴望或飞逝而去，却从不重复相同。
A year yearns or runs swiftly by and never yields the same.
开端很少能预示结局。
The early part rarely promises the end.
这太美了。
It's beautiful.
确实如此。
It is really.
这太棒了。
It's wonderful.
你最近读过这段吗？
And you read that most recently.
哦，谢谢。
Oh, thank you.
这是诗中最引人注目的意象之一，但显然，普鲁斯特并不是第一个说事物结局不同于开端的人。
It's one of the most striking images in the poem, but it just goes to it's not like Proust is the first one to say things don't turn out the way they start, needless to say.
但他用这些光学意象来表达这一点的方式，我认为非常鲜明。
But the way he goes the these optical images for it, I think, are really striking.
是的。
Yeah.
我想快速补充一点，他在这卷书中也一直在用这种方式不断描述和重新描述爱情，我认为在整个作品中都是如此。
And I just wanna add quickly that that's also one of the ways he's he's constantly describing and redescribing love as well in this volume, and I I I think probably throughout the whole of the thing, whole of.
而照片的负片，也是他描述爱情的一种方式。
And the negative the photo negative, it was also a way that he describes love.
嗯。
So Mhmm.
当他在思考为什么他喜欢阿尔贝蒂娜，而不是小组里另一个女孩安德烈——他实际上和安德烈更相似——时。
The beloved when he's I think it's when he's thinking about why he likes Albertine as opposed to Andre, who's the other girl in the group who he's actually much more similar to.
他在思考，那种戏剧性的‘我们’出现在第二部分末尾，仿佛我们都在经历这些体验，对此我略有保留。
And he's thinking about how the person that there's I mean, there's this dramatic we that arrives in the not Renault that arrives in the second towards the end of the second half as if we're all having these experiences, which I slightly demur from.
是的。
Yeah.
但我想他说过类似这样的话：人们在爱人身上看到的是一种投射，一种负片。
But, yeah, I think he says something like we people find in their loved one a projection, a negative Mhmm.
一种他们自身的他者，而这同样也不是一个完全原创的意象。
A kind of the their other self, which again is not a totally original image either.
但当你从他使用‘负片’这一概念的其他方式来思考时，它反而变得更有原创性了，对吧。
But it kind of becomes more original when you can think about it in light of the other ways that he's using that idea of the negative as this Right.
一种延迟的发现。
Kind of deferred discovery.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
负片有一种非常鲜明的时间性。
There's something really temporal about an a negative.
确实，我的意思是，有拍摄照片的那一刻。
Really, I mean, there's the moment of taking the photograph.
有拥有负片的那一刻，而这之间已经经历了一个过程。
There's the moment of having the negative, which is there's already a process between those two.
然后还有将负片转化为最终影像的那一刻。
And then there's the moment of making the negative into the final image Mhmm.
这个过程本身并不是一个固定的过程。
Which is the that that process itself is not a fixed process.
对吧？
Right?
实际上，在制作最终图像时，存在着大量人为的选择，尤其是在普鲁斯特写作的那个时代。
Like, there's actually a lot of human choice that goes into making the final image at the time that Proust still today, but at the time that Proust is writing in particular.
我在接近结尾时，几乎开始觉得似乎存在某种模式。
I found towards the end, I almost started to feel like there was a pattern.
比如，他会讲述一些具体发生的小事。
Like, he would tell a little bit of a specific thing that happened.
叙述者会从自己的视角清晰地处理这些事，然后视角拉远，做出某种宽泛的论断，关于这一切意味着什么，或者我们如何处理爱情等等。
The narrator would would process it very clearly from the narrator's voice, and then it would zoom out and make some sort of globalization, some sort of capacious statement about what that is all about or how we handle love, etcetera, etcetera.
这种由真实事件、个人反思、再推演扩展构成的循环模式，让我觉得非常迷人。
And it was really this sort of recurring cycle of, like, actual events, personal processing, extrapolation that I I I found fascinating.
而且，一旦我注意到了这一点，就再也无法视而不见了。
Also, once I noticed it, then I couldn't kind of unsee it.
所以，尽管我很享受阅读过程，但它也开始让我觉得有点像一种机械的惯性。
So even though I was enjoying it, it it did also kind of turn into it felt started to feel like a bit of a tick.
我不知道你是怎么想的，艾玛。
I don't know what you thought, Emma.
我觉得这种现象在更早的时候就出现了，而我那时是以一种更超然的方式享受它的。
I think that that happens earlier in a way that I've been enjoying in a more impersonal way.
会有一些关于叙事和人物的细节，然后突然跳出来，对人们普遍的行为做出某种概括。
So there'll be some detail about the narrative and the characters, and then a kind of step back about what people are like in general.
嗯。
Mhmm.
不是以第一人称，也不是以第一人称复数的那种方式。
Not in not in the first person, or not in the first person plural in that way.
对。
No.
对。
No.
你说得对。
The you're right.
新的部分是结尾处新增的内容。
The new is a is a new the new is a new addition towards the end.
非常抱歉。
I'm so sorry.
我觉得这有点咄咄逼人。
It felt a bit aggressive to me.
是的。
Yeah.
这种‘带着差异的重复’——事物缓慢变化，有时可能，有时不太可能——与本卷的另一个重要主题‘习惯’相呼应。
Another factor of this whole, like, repetition repetition with a difference, the sort of slow alteration of things that is sometimes possible and sometimes less possible chimes with the another major theme of this volume, which is habit.
所以，是的，存在
So, yeah, there's
这种习惯与新颖性之间的拉锯。
this kind of tussle between habit and novelty.
而叙述者追求新奇，但发现这相当具有挑战性。
And the narrator seeks novelty, but then finds it quite challenging.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以当他刚到达班德克时，起初他感到很困难。
So when he arrives at Bande deque, initially, he he struggles.
他难以适应这种对日常作息和习惯的打乱。
He struggles with this disruption to his routine and his habits.
在第一卷中，我们发现他最初出现在他的卧室里。
In volume one, we found him in we we first encounter him in his bedroom.
这里也对他的卧室进行了相当多的描写。
There's also quite a lot of thought about his bedrock bedroom here.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当他到达那里时，简直像一场恐怖秀。
And when he arrives in it, it's like a kind of horror show.
在贝尔贝克，我的卧室里根本没有我的空间，那只是名义上属于我的地方。
Space there was none for me in my bedroom, mine in name only at Belbeck.
房间里摆满了我不认识的东西，它们回瞪着我，投来充满不信任的目光，完全无视我的存在，仿佛我打扰了它们平淡无奇的日常轨迹。
It was full of things which did not know me, which flung back at me the distrustful glance I cast at them, and without taking any heed of my existence, showed that I was interrupting the humdrum course of theirs.
我喜欢这一点，因为家具仿佛有了生命。
So what I love about that is that the furniture is quite alive.
我的意思是，我们也能看到这种现象。
I mean, that's something that we also see.
我开始注意到，这在整个过程中不断出现。
I'm starting to notice throughout.
这是一个精彩的时刻：奥黛特从他身边经过，或坐在某个脚凳上，脚凳仿佛因她的气息而微微颤动。
This is great moment where Odette passes him or puts her or sits on somehow because some kind of footstool, and it's kind of vibrating with with her kind of essence.
所以我认为，对普鲁斯特而言，习惯就是物体逐渐渗透了人物的日常生活。
So I guess habit for Proust is in is about objects kind of becoming permeated with the everyday of the characters.
对。
Right.
这关乎物体与人物形成某种组合，仿佛与人物协同合作。
It's about the objects turning into some sort of assemblage with the character, like working together with the character in concert.
而这些新物体尚未准备好做到这一点。
And these new objects aren't ready to do that yet.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，习惯是他试图寻找的一种令人慰藉的东西。
So habit is something that he's kind trying to that that is comforting.
而且，最终，他在卧室里变得非常自在，但这也需要被打破。
And, you know, eventually, he becomes very comfortable in the bedroom, but also something that he needs to disrupt.
他试图逃离。
He's trying to escape.
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它的运作方式非常有趣。
It functions so interestingly.
我的意思是，我也注意到‘habit’这个词同时也是‘衣服’的意思。
I mean, I was also noticing how habit is literally the word for clothing as well.
所以这有点是的。
So it's kind of Yes.
他就像人们保护自己或展现自己的方式。
Way he way people kind of protect themselves or present themselves.
嗯。
Mhmm.
当他去拜访埃尔斯迪奥的工作室时，‘habit’这个词似乎被赋予了相当正面的含义。
Habit is referred to, I think, quite positively when he goes to visit Elsdio's studio.
他谈到自己多么努力地成为一位伟大的画家，这不仅是因为他想出名，也因为他真的付出了很多努力。
He talks about how he has worked so hard to become this great painter, not only because he wanted to be known, but also because he really worked hard.
这是一种勤勉的习惯，正是这种习惯造就了这些美丽的画面，因为，你知道，我们之前谈到了摄影。
He's, like, kind of a laborious habit that has created these beautiful tableau because, you know, we talked about photography.
在这部分中，摄影与绘画的并置也非常精彩。
That's quite a nice running juxtaposition of photography and painting in this in this part as well.
所以习惯关乎工作。
So habit is about work.
他谈到习惯时最动人的时刻之一，也是在他与祖母的对话中。
One of the most poignant moments where he talks about habit is also in this conversation that he has with his grandmother.
你还记得那段吗？
Do you remember that bit?
他说：‘我根本无法想象没有你的生活。’
Where he says, oh, I could never live without you.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
然后他们俩都意识到，他很可能真的不得不在没有她的情况下生活。
And then and they're they both have this moment of mutual realization that it's indeed very probable that he will have to live without her
是的。
Yeah.
在某个时候。
At some point.
他们必须从这种情绪中冷静下来。
And they have to sort of cool down from it.
是的。
Yeah.
他们基本上在床上进行着一场恋爱，尤其是在开头部分，非常温馨。
They they are having this love affair, basically, in bed, like, in the first bit, which is very sweet.
是的。
Yeah.
但后来他试图安慰她，说：‘你知道我是个多么习惯于固定模式的人。’
But then he tries to comfort her by saying, oh, but you know what a creature of habit I am.
对。
Right.
我现在已经习惯了你，但一旦我习惯了另一种生活，几个月甚至更久看不到你，我也会没事的。
I'm habituated to you now, but once I'm habituated to another life, and I don't see you for months or even longer, dot dot dot, I'll be okay.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
他试图安慰她，但这显然是一个非常悲情的时刻。
He tries to reassure her, but it's obviously a very tragic moment.
关于习惯在整部作品中的另一个方面，我想简单提一下：普鲁斯特明确指出，习惯会杀死记忆，那些反复发生、成为你习惯的事物——这一点在我的经验中也确实如此——都会逐渐淡去。
The other thing about habit in terms of the project as a whole that I just wanna mention briefly is that Proust is very clear that habit is the memory killer as it were, that that things that happen many times that are part of your habit, and this is this is true in my experience, just sort of fade away.
你不会像记得那些你实际上已经部分遗忘、后来又被唤起的事情那样，清晰地记住它们的细节。
You don't remember any of their contours with as much distinctness as you remember things that you have, in fact, somewhat forgotten and that end up getting recalled.
那些被你排除在日常生活或反思之外的事情。
So things that were outside of your habit that that you sort of excluded from your daily routine or from your from your reflections.
这些才是日后最鲜活的记忆。
Those are the things that end up being most vivid later on.
这对我来说是真实的。
And that feels true to me.
我觉得，正如普鲁斯特所说，不是我日常生活中那些平淡无奇的部分让我感觉最生动、最贴近，尽管它们确实构成了我大部分的当下。
I feel like it's a it's a it's not my daily as as Proust says, the humdrum course of my daily life that feels most vivid and present to me even though it is most of the time indeed my present.
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Proust Curious is brought to you in partnership with Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.
您可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。
You can find us at publicbooks.org.
网址是 publicbooks.org。
That's publicbooks.org.
要为公共书籍网站捐款，请访问 publicbooks.org/donate。
To donate to Public Books, visit publicbooks.org/donate.
我想知道，我想讨论的最后这段文字，出自第二部分的结尾，是否试图调和习惯与独特性之间的关系。
I wonder if the last passage that I wanted to talk about, which comes right from the end of of the part of part two, does some work to try and reconcile kind of habit and singularity.
再详细说说。
Tell me more.
我们之前讨论过，在这一卷中，叙述者遇到了很多人。
We've talked about how in this volume, the narrator meets a lot of people.
最后一次相遇是与一群女孩，也就是‘Schae帮’——这个名字也来自塞琳·席安玛的同名电影——他远远地望着她们。
The final meeting is with this group of girls, this Bande de Schae, also the name of the film by Celine Sciamma, that he sees from a distance.
她们仿佛是从海里诞生的。
They kind of are birthed from the sea.
我的意思是，她们被明确地比作海仙女和娜瑞。
I mean, they are compared very explicitly with the sea nymphs and nares.
但她们也骑自行车、打高尔夫，非常……像骑自行车那种样子。
But they're also, you know, cycling and golfing and very, like, bicycling, you know, kind of
她们非常热爱运动。
They're very sporty.
是的。
Yeah.
她们是现代世俗女性爱好者与永恒仙女形象的综合体。
A composite of, like, the modern fan of secular women and these eternal nymph creatures.
他开始对他们着迷。
He becomes obsessed with them.
他花了很长时间才了解他们。
It takes a long time for him to get to know them Mhmm.
或者感觉上似乎花了很久。
Or it feels as though it does.
嗯。
Mhmm.
最终，他和他们成了朋友。
And eventually, he makes friends with them.
这可能是他在巴尔贝克最幸福的时光。
It's probably his happiest time in Baalbek.
这引发了许多关于日常琐碎的惯性互动，与他此前对这些女孩充满幻想的对比反思。
And that prompts a lot of reflection on the kind of everyday banality of habitual interaction versus the kind of ecstatic imaginings that he was having prior to knowing them better about about these girls.
就在故事突然结束前，他正好反思了这一点，你知道，他说：天气变坏了。
And he reflects on that right at the end just before this kind of peremptory ending where, you know, he says, and the weather got bad.
是时候离开瓦尔贝克了，于是他便动身离去。
It was time to leave Valbek and off he went.
他还写道，那些超自然的存在——曾有一段时间，这些女孩于我而言就是这般存在——即便我毫无此意，也依然为我与她们之间最平常的往来注入了一丝不可思议的色彩，或者说，彻底避免了这些往来沦为庸常的日常。
And he says, the supernatural creatures, which for a little time they had been to me, still introduced, even without any intention on my part, a miraculous element into the most commonplace dealings that I might have with them, or rather prevented such dealings from ever becoming commonplace at all.
我曾无比热切地渴望读懂她们眼神的意义，如今这些眼睛已然认识我，会笑着望向我；可初识那天，她们的目光扫过我的视线时，就像来自另一个宇宙的光芒。
My desire had so sought so ardently to learn the significance of the eyes which now knew and smiled to see me, but whose glances on the first day had crossed mine like rays from another universe.
我曾那般慷慨、细致又无微不至地为这些女孩的姣好面容赋予色彩与芬芳，可如今她们躺在悬崖顶上，不过是给我递三明治，或是陪我猜谜语——这样的午后时光，我常和她们一同躺在那里。
It had distributed so generously, so carefully, so minutely color and fragrance over the carnation surfaces of these girls who now outstretched on the cliff top were simply offering me sandwiches or guessing riddles that often in the afternoon while I lay there among them.
就像那些试图在现代生活中重现古典时代恢宏气度的画家一样——给一个正在剪脚趾甲的女人赋予《拔刺的少年》里的人物那般高贵气质，又或是像鲁本斯那样，把自己熟识的女性塑造成女神，让她们跻身于神话场景之中。
Like those painters who seek to match the grandeur of antiquity in modern life, give to a woman cutting her toenail the nobility of the spinario or like Rubens, make goddesses out of women whom they know to people some mythological scene.
望着散落在我身边草地上那些容貌姣好、肤色深浅各异、气质类型各不相同的姑娘们，我会怔怔地出神，或许并没有彻底抹去日常阅历为她们附上的那些平凡烟火气。
At those lovely forms, dark and fair, so dissimilar in types scattered around me in the grass, I would gaze without emptying them perhaps of all the mediocre contents with which my everyday experience had filled them.
与此同时，我也不会刻意想起她们宛若天仙的出身，只恍惚觉得自己就像年轻的赫拉克勒斯或是忒勒玛科斯，置身于一群仙女中嬉游。
And at the same time, without expressly recalling their heavenly origin, as if like young Hercules or young Telemachus, I had been set to play amid a band of nymphs.
我懂了。
I know.
这……这实在太丰富了。
It's It's so much.
我是说，这太震撼了。
I I mean, it's spectacular.
我确实认为，这是一次 reconcile 日常习惯与浪漫憧憬的尝试。
I do think that it's a it is an attempt to reconcile the habit and the dream.
不对。
No.
我觉得你说得对。
I think you're right.
而且我还很喜欢它意象的层次感。
And what I just love about it as well is this layering of images.
在第一卷里，主要的女性角色奥黛特就像一幅画作。
So in volume one, Odette, the main woman, is one painting.
对吧？
Right?
她是波提切利笔下的人物。
She's Botticelli.
是的。
Mhmm.
那就是她的力量所在。
That is her power.
关于阿尔贝蒂娜和那些女孩，有趣的是她们实际上是许多不同形象的综合体。
What's interesting about Albertine and the girls is they are kind of composite of so many different images.
她们的照片，甚至还有奥黛特的一种水彩画也混杂其中。
Their photographs, their a kind of actually a watercolor of Odette is in the mix.
她们是风景画的一部分。
They're part of a landscape scene.
你知道吗，他最初在画家工作室遇见阿尔贝蒂娜时，她就像是被画出来的一样。
They you know, the way that he first meets Albertine at the painter's studio, she's kind of she's painted.
她是一种逐渐形成的创造物。
She's kind of a creation that occurs.
它被各种艺术图像层层叠加，这种复合体在艺术形象与人物层面发挥作用，同时也体现在我们之前讨论过的各种主题中，比如相遇、习惯、愉悦与无聊。
It's so overlaid with different kind of artistic images, and this kind of composite is working at that level in terms of the art image and the character, but also in the all the various motifs that we've had about kind of encounters and habits and pleasure and boredom.
而且我
And I
我认为这是一种试图将日常与贝勒贝克风景中那种魔幻元素结合的努力，正是这种结合，使得这些如仙女般的超自然女孩，既能慵懒地躺在悬崖顶端，又能像普通人一样剪脚趾甲，充满平凡。
think there's this kind of attempt to marry the everyday with the kind of enchanted aspect of the landscape at Bellebeck, which is how these kind of nymph like supernatural girls can also be kind of just stretching out on a cliff top and with the kind of banality of someone cutting their toenails.
对。
Right.
她们既充满平庸，又潜藏着神圣。
And that they're somehow full both of mediocrity and a latent divinity.
因为他提到，他会想到她们天界的起源，却并未明确回忆起这一点。
Because he says that he thinks about their heavenly origin, but without expressly recalling it.
所以这似乎只是某种……
So it seems to be just sort of.
是的。
Yeah.
然而，既然它就在那里，习惯却似乎无法形成，也无法发挥其作用，让你忘却周围的一切以及它们的运作方式。
And yet since it's since it's there, nevertheless, a habit can't seem to form, or it can't seem to do its work of making you forget what is around you and how it all works.
他还以极具绘画感的方式描述了她们，就像你刚才那么慷慨、细致、细致入微地引用的那段文字那样，色彩与香气被层层涂抹在这些女孩的肌肤表面。
He also describes them real in a really painterly way in the citation you just read that so generously, so carefully, so minutely color and fragrance had been laid over the carnation surfaces of these girls.
比如，在某物上涂抹色彩，这显然是一种极具绘画性的动作。
Like, laying color over something is a very obviously painterly gesture.
这里最引人入胜的是，他显然将她们当作一种审美对象来互动，就像那幅描绘女人剪脚趾甲的画作，或是鲁本斯的美第奇肖像。
What's so fascinating here is there's he clearly is interacting with them almost as an aesthetic object, like the the painting of a woman cutting her toenails, like the Rubens' Medici portraits.
总之，他将她们视为一种审美体验，类似于欣赏阿尔斯特的一幅画作——用小说中的术语来说。
Anyway, so he he's he's treating them as an aesthetic experience, akin to seeing one of Alstier's paintings to use terms from the novel.
但他在另一处将这种体验与男性友谊强加给他的要求形成对比，即男性之间的社交关系，因为这些是真实的关系，而非单纯的自我审美体验，往往会对人的创造力造成极大消耗。
But he contrasts at another point with the demands placed upon him by male friendship, that homosocial relationships, because they're actual relationships as opposed to just a self having an aesthetic experience, can be very draining to one's creativity.
因此，他谈论的是圣路易斯，以及他与圣路易斯的关系和那群女孩之间的差异。
So that that that's he's talking about Saint Louis and the difference between his relationship with Saint Louis and the band of girls.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
关于他第二卷没有写作的提及，我认为是与桑卢有关的。
The reference to him not writing in the second volume, I think, in relation to Sang Lu.
你在想，他花这么多时间陪朋友，而不是坐下来写作，这是否合适，而显然他根本不会去写作。
And you're wondering whether it's right that he's spending so much time with his friend when he could be sitting down to write, which obviously he's not going to do.
谁会在海滩度假时坐下来写作呢？
Who sits down to write on their beach vacation?
我的意思是，有些人会。
I mean, some people.
我相信有些人确实会，但我认为，这种环境不太可能让人专心投入工作。
I'm sure some people do, but I do think it's a sort of improbable setting for really getting down to business.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这里对女性这种夸张的物化，你知道，她们在文本中并不仅仅是艺术对象。
So this kind of extravagant objectification of women here, and they, you know, they're not just art objects in the text.
她们更像是某种生物。
They are kind of creatures.
她们被以生物学的方式加以描述。
They're kind of zoologically described.
她们类似于花朵和植物。
They are akin to flowers and plants.
因此，这是一种植物般的散布，加上色彩搭配，以及奇迹与现实的图像融合。
So the kind of a botanical scattering as well as a color palette and a composite of images and marriage of the miraculous and the real.
你知道，我读着这本书，不禁想知道，在更平实的层面上，为什么我并不觉得这令人厌烦？
You know, I'm reading this wondering what on a more prosaic level, like, why I don't find this annoying?
不是的。
No.
确实如此。
It's true.
这一切都太过夸张了，真的。
It's it is all it's all so hyperbolic, really.
我的意思是，通常这种持续的夸张确实会变得非常乏味。
I mean and and usually, level of sustained hyperbole does get really quite tedious.
但对我来说，我觉得让它不令人厌烦的原因在于，其中很多内容都出人意料——当然，这只是我个人的看法。
But I think for me, I think what keeps it from being annoying, but this is just me, is how unexpected so much of it is.
对吧？
Right?
比如，那个女人剪脚趾甲的场景，简直太意外了，这种出人意料的描绘让我完全被吸引住了。
Like, the woman cutting her toenails is so unex it that's just such an unexpected evocation that I'm I just it keeps me under its spell.
所以我想说的是，正是这种持续的新颖性抓住了我的注意力。
So I guess I'm saying actually that novelty, the continued novelty is keeping my attention.
如果这只是一种持续的、夸张但并不生动或缺乏新意的描述，我想我们一定会感到厌烦。
And if it if it were just a sustained sort of histrionic, but not particularly vivid or not particularly novel description, I think we would be annoyed.
而这样的话，这本书也不会被人继续阅读了。
And I don't think this would be a book that was still read.
是的
Yeah.
说实话
Honestly.
我认为这就是区别所在，让这本书没有沦为纯粹乏味冗长的叙述，而成为今天如此受人喜爱的作品。
I think it I think that's the difference between this being absolute just tedious long windedness and being the book that is so beloved by so many today.
嗯哼
Mhmm.
说到这里，我们可以回到书名和花中的少女们。
On that note, we can come back to the title and the young girls in flower.
这是一个非常陈腐的刻板印象。
And that is such a cult cliche.
文学中将花朵与女性联系在一起，这种关联极其陈旧。
The association with between flowers and women in literature is incredibly Shop one.
当你单独思考它时，这种联系令人不堪重负。
Burdensome when you try and think about it on its own.
是的，我认为普鲁斯特在这部作品中做了一些非常有趣的事情，因为这里的植物描写极其具体。
And, yeah, I do think that Proust does something I think it's worth saying he does something really interesting with that in this text because it's so specifically botanical.
我们看到了各种花的名字。
We've got the names of flowers.
我们看到了那些如花般的少女的面容。
We've got the faces of the girls that are like flowers.
他给自己设定了一个文学上的挑战。
He's kind of set himself as literary challenge.
这让我想起我研究的十六世纪的一些作家，他们也身处这种模仿传统之中，努力追求推陈出新。
That reminds me of some of the writers that I work on in the sixteenth century who are working in this kind of imitative tradition, trying to create Make it new.
对主题进行极其有趣的变奏，而他确实做到了这一点。
Really interesting variations on a theme, and he absolutely does that.
我认为，换句话说，就像万花筒一样。
I think that In other words, like the kaleidoscope.
对吧？
Right?
他正在重新组合文学传统中的元素，以创造新的形象。
He's reconfiguring the elements of literary tradition to make a new image.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
这就是为什么它在智力上如此令人满足。
And that's why it's so intellectually satisfying.
对。
Right.
你能体会到将这些相隔甚远的片段串联起来的满足感，真正看到普鲁斯特的结构。
You have the satisfaction of putting these moments together that are so far across the volume and seeing how things honestly, seeing Proust's architecture.
这是一种前现代版本的文学价值。
And that is a premodern version of literary merit
嗯。
Mhmm.
在某些方面。
In some respect.
我的意思是，我确信这是一种现代或现代主义的，以及不同版本的后现代形式，我们所面对的正是这种文学万花筒。
I mean, I I I'm sure it's a modern or modernist one, postmodern as well in in different iterations, again, of that kind of literary kaleidoscope that we're we're dealing with.
但正是通过习惯的细微变化，你才能发现乐趣与美，确实如此。
But it is through the slight variations in habit that you find kind of pleasure and beauty, actually Mhmm.
在早期现代诗歌中，当然如此。
In early modern poetry, certainly.
是的。
Yeah.
我想说的最后一点是，我一直在思考这个问题：我认为这种作品在多大程度上是厌女的，或者并非如此。
The final thing I would also say is that I think I kind of wrestle with the question of how misogynistic I think this is or isn't.
这种对女性的广泛物化。
This, like, extensive objectification of of of women.
对我来说，归根结底，我认为他们本质上都是男人。
For me, I think at the end of the day, I think they're all secretly men.
所以我很难做到。
So I have a hard time.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
这是一个适合法国专题的话题。
A topic for a French episode.
对。
Yeah.
那是另一个专题的话题。
That's a that's a topic for another episode.
但我的意思是，他们的名字是吉尔伯特、阿尔伯特，
But, I mean, their names are Gilbert, Albert,
还有安德鲁。
and Andrew.
真的吗？
Like, really?
我只是很难想象这一点。
So I just I have trouble thinking that.
不过话说回来，他确实把女性物化了。
I'm not but that being said, he does make the women.
他确实，真的把她们物化，以便去思考她们。
He does he does literally objectify them to be able to contemplate them.
是的，全部都是。
All of Yes.
我想我并没有因此感到不适。
Is I guess I am not sort of put off.
没有。
No.
我也是。
Me neither.
但我觉得这并不显得厌女。
By I I it doesn't feel misogynist to me.
我觉得她们是有个性的。
I think they are specific.
她们有内在深度。
They have interiority.
他在处理这个过程时充满了幽默感。
There's a lot of humor to the way that he treats this process.
我觉得就像叙述者既迷人又滑稽。
I think it's like in the kind of the narrator being both charming and silly.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
缓和了这种局面。
Leavens this situation.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是对的。
I think that's right.
也许现在该谈谈这卷书中的赢家和输家了，艾玛。
Perhaps it's time to talk about the winners and losers of the volume, Emma.
你怎么看？
What do you think?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
实际上，我非常期待这一部分。
I'm excited for this part of it, actually.
是的。
Yeah.
你觉得《Elo HaShash》第二卷的赢家是谁？
Who is your winner of volume two of Elo HaShash?
汉娜。
Hannah.
我很难选出赢家，但原因和第一卷不同——我觉得几乎每个人都是输家。
I found the winner difficult to pick, but for the different reason than in volume one, I felt like, basically, almost everyone was a loser.
这次情况不一样了。
That is not the case this time.
我觉得这一卷里有太多可能的赢家，尤其是叙述者本人，他在巴勒贝克过得很开心，学到了很多，还交到了好朋友。
I felt like there were too many contenders for being the potential winner of this volume, not least of whom is the narrator himself who's really seems to have a great time in Baalbek and learn a lot and make good friends.
我不确定。
I don't know.
这一切听起来都像
That all sounds like
太无聊了，但之前是这样。
so so lame, but before.
现在他有点酷了。
And now he's kinda cool.
对。
Right.
他开始融入那些很酷的人群，同时也在培养自己的审美品味，这对他来说才是真正的存在意义。
He's start he's starting to get in with with the cool people, but also developing his aesthetic sense, which is a real raison d'etre for him.
所以这一切看起来都很棒。
So that all seems great.
我觉得我真诚但乏味的选择是。
I think my my sincere but boring choices as.
是的。
Yeah.
那位最终脱颖而出的画家。
The painter who just comes out on top.
就像他似乎得到了叙述者以及他所遇到的其他人的全心全意的钦佩。
Like, it just seems like he has sort of the full throated admiration of the narrator and of the others whom he encounters.
他仍在努力向上。
He's still on the make.
他还没特别出名，但我们得知他即将成名。
He's not super famous yet, but we're told that he's about to be.
他在某个时刻对自己过去的愚蠢给出了清醒的评价。
He offers a clear eyed evaluation of his own former silliness at one point.
所以他以前是个傻里傻气的画家，在第一卷中以某个绰号出现，而他现在承认了这一点，并说：听好了。
So he so he was previously a silly painter who who featured in the first volume under a sort of nickname, And he owns that and is like, listen.
我们都犯过错误。
We all make mistakes.
我们都得长大。
We all have to grow up.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你的赢家是谁，艾玛？
Who is your winner, Emma?
我的赢家并不特别令人兴奋或有说服力，所以我更想听听你的。
My my winner is not particularly exciting or convincing, so I'd rather hear about yours.
不。
No.
但我很高兴你提到了当他被 narrator 揭穿为 Monsieur Biche 时所说的那段话。
But I'm really happy that you spoke about that speech that he makes when the narrator outs him as monsieur Biche.
他说，看吧，这是生活的一部分。
And he's like, look, it's part of life.
你不能为此后悔。
You have you can't regret it.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
这是对他内心挣扎的描述——一方面是他作为人的骄傲，另一方面是他想对这个年轻人进行教育的愿望。
And this is description of his struggle between his, like, pride and his desire to be pedagogical with this young guy.
他某种程度上是在指导他。
He's kind of mentoring.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
你看，你知道，你不必为自己的尴尬过去感到羞愧。
Like, look, you know, you don't have to be embarrassed by your embarrassing past.
我觉得这让人感到安慰。
I found it soothing.
是的。
Yes.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
是的
Yeah.
他是冠军的有力竞争者。
He's a great contender for winner.
但我的冠军是那位祖母。
But my winner was the grandmother.
对
Yes.
她也在竞争之列。
She's in the mix too.
说吧。
Go ahead.
为什么她是你的赢家？
Why is she your winner?
嗯，我不确定我是不是用同样的标准来评判，但我只是觉得她被描绘得非常出色。
Well, I don't know if I'm judging on the same criteria, but I just think she's so wonderfully drawn.
她给人的感觉是一个非常睿智且有趣的人。
She comes across as such a perspicacious and interesting person.
我在第一卷时就已经觉得她可能是赢家，因为我特别喜欢对她与花园关系的描述。
I already thought about her as a potential winner in volume one because I just love the description of her relationship to the garden.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
在康布雷的那所房子里，她对那些繁琐的细节感到非常厌烦，而她更喜欢自然的花园。
In the house in Cambrai and how she's really annoyed with all this fussy fussiness, and she likes a natural garden.
我认为她的审美观无疑构成了这些小说本身的一种隐秘美学宣言。
And I think that has her aesthetic certainly seems to be a kind of secret aesthetic kind of manifesto for the for the novels themselves.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她和叙述者相处得非常融洽。
She's so lovely with the narrator.
他们之间有一些非常美好的时刻，比如敲墙的那个场景。
They have some really, really nice moments together like that knocking on the wall.
你知道，她并不完全获胜，因为在某个时刻，叙述者开始疏远她，而且他还因为嫉妒破坏了她让圣路易为她拍照的时刻。
You know, she doesn't entirely win in the sense that there's this point where the narrator starts to ditch her, and he also ruins a moment where she's gonna have her photo taken by Saint Louis because he's jealous.
是的。
Yeah.
这有点令人难过。
And that's a bit sad.
所以她未必是一个胜利者的角色。
So she's not she's not a triumphant character necessarily.
但对我来说，她无疑是赢家，因为她不仅是个善良的角色，还展现出一种极其有趣的思想。
But for me, she's the undoubted winner because she she just comes across as such an interesting mind as well as a nice character.
是的。
Yeah.
所以她相关的场景非常动人，但我特别喜欢她对《C'est vignette》的痴迷。
So the scenes with her are very affecting, but I love how she she has this obsession with C'est vignette.
是的。
Yeah.
她不断引用《C'est vignette》。
She's constantly quoting C'est vignette.
她通过《C'est vignette》的信件与查尔斯建立了联系。
She bonds with Charles over C'est vignette's letters.
她爱查尔斯，也爱圣路易斯。
She loves Charles and and Saint Louis.
她在贝勒贝克也真正地找到了自我。
She had kind of she really comes into her own in Bellebeck as well.
她正在经历一段与叙述者平行的旅程。
She's having a kind of parallel journey to to the narrator.
他们两人都比在巴黎或康普雷时拥有更多自由，因为他们都不再被上一代人如此束缚。
They both have more freedom than they've had previously in Paris or Compre because they're not so neither of them are so restrained by the parental generation.
这真是对祖孙关系的一种美好描绘，但我认为她作为一个人物的塑造也十分细腻，是的。
Think it's a really nice account of what our grandparent grandchild relationship can be, but I also think that the way she comes across as a person is subtly drawn, but Yeah.
非常富有感染力。
Really evocative.
所以我认为她是我的胜者，因为我喜欢她。
And so I I I think she's my winner because I love her.
我觉得这是选择胜者的一个绝佳方式。
I think that's a great way to choose a winner.
你想先说说你的败者吗？
Do you wanna say your loser first?
因为我先说了胜者。
Since I took the first winner.
我对我的输家有更多矛盾的情绪。
I've got much more conflict about my loser.
我相信我们选的是同一个人。
I'm sure we have the same one.
我猜我们确实选了同一个。
I suspect we do.
我预测我们选的是同一个人。
I am predicting we do.
但谁是输家呢？
But who's the loser?
是布洛赫吗？
Is it Bloch?
就是布洛赫。
It's Bloch.
哦
Oh,
他在这一卷里真是个失败者。
he's such a loser in this volume.
但我真的觉得他就是这样。
But I have a He really is.
我对这件事感到情感上的矛盾，因为这又深深植根于当时反犹主义的氛围中。
Emotional conflict about it because, again, it's so embedded in the antisemitism of the moment.
所以，在叙述者这一代人中，布洛赫是唯一一位重要的犹太角色。
So Bloch is the only prominent Jewish character at this point in the narrator's generation.
他在社会中被严重边缘化。
He's really marginalized in society.
这既是因为他的身份，也是因为他的性格糟糕透顶。
And it's because of that as well as because of his unfortunately terrible personality.
确实如此。
It's true.
事实上，这一卷中最明显、最直接的反犹主义言论，竟然出自布洛赫本人。
It's he's well, and actually, some of the the most just sort of overtly, like, offensively antisemitic moments in this volume come from Block himself
谁谁
who who
模仿所谓的犹太口音，方式极其冒犯，并使用贬义词汇。
who mimics, quote, unquote, Jewish speech in a in a very offensive way and uses derogatory terms.
我认为这不过是他在试图融入，因为他根本就彻底无法融入。
And I think that that is just sort of an attempt to fit in on his part because he's sort of he sort of terminally doesn't fit in.
真正让我确信他是失败者的场景，是罗伯特·德·圣特卢不得不返回他在当皮埃尔的部队时，那整个情节也像简·奥斯汀的作品一样。
The scene that really cemented for me that he was the loser was when Robert de Sainte Lou has to go back to his regiment in Donciere, which that's also like a whole that it's very Jane Austen.
对吧？
Right?
那支部队到底在干什么？
Like, what's the regiment up to?
是的。
Like, it's Yeah.
反正也挺怪异的。
It's it's sort of off anyway.
我希望我们能在未来的节目中多聊聊圣路易，因为我真的很喜欢他。
I hope we talk more about Saint Louis in future episodes because I do really like him.
我们只是还没来得及深入讨论。
We just haven't had time to get into it yet.
我也是。
Well, same with.
我的意思是，很多主要角色我们还没来得及讲，但我们会回头再谈他们的。
I mean, lot of it in I mean, all the main characters we haven't gotten into yet, but we'll we'll come back to them.
但圣路易邀请他去多尼埃尔的军营找他，他是这样邀请的：
But Saint Louis invites him to come see him in Doncier at his regiment, but he invites him as follows.
如果你某天下午恰好经过多尼埃尔，而我又正好下班，你可以到军营来找我，但我几乎从不下班。
If you ever happen to be passing through Doncier any afternoon when I'm off duty, you might ask for me at the barracks, but I hardly ever am off duty.
我的意思是，这根本不是什么邀请。
I mean, this is an invitation that's not an invitation.
对吧？
Right?
叙述者心想：天哪。
And the narrator is like, oh god.
圣路易太无礼了。
Saint Louis is so rude.
这简直太不像话了，布莱克的感情肯定会受到伤害。
Like, that's such a that's not like, Black's feelings are going to be so hurt.
但布莱克却把它当真了，心想：圣路易是想让我去拜访他。
But instead, Black takes it as it takes it very literally and is like, Saint Lu wants me to come visit.
我必须放下一切，事实上，如果我们能的话，两天后就该动身了。
I must drop everything, and in fact, we should go in two days' time if only we could.
叙述者感到无比尴尬。
And the narrator is just horribly embarrassed.
但事实确实如此。
But it's true.
这明显是一个社交暗示，而布莱克却完全没察觉到。
I mean, this is a very obvious social cue that Block does not pick up on.
是的
Yeah.
我选中的场景是叙述者和圣卢去布莱克家吃晚饭，见到了他的父亲、姐妹和叔叔们。
What I had picked out is I found the scene where the narrator and Santa Lu go to dinner at Blocks house and meet his father and his sisters and uncles.
这真的太令人心酸了。
It's just so so sad.
情节推进得很快，但非常痛苦，因为
It skips along narratively, but it's so painful because
这太痛苦了。
It's so painful.
他们所有人都很尴尬。
They're all really cringe.
整个一家人都是这样。
This whole family.
但部分原因也是因为他们不自在，因为家里来了两个他们想给留下好印象的人。
But also partly because they're not comfortable because they've got these two people that they're trying to impress in their midst.
对。
Right.
这两个不是犹太人。
These these two people who are not Jewish.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
他们对这个情况非常敏感。
And they they're very conscious of of of the situation.
所以。
So
圣路易斯是个侯爵。
And Saint Louis is is a Marquis.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
所以，他们面对的是一位贵族，然后是的。
So he they're dealing with an a noble person and then Yeah.
还有一位朋友，这位朋友在社会中的地位显然比他们稳固得多。
Is and a friend who's definitely more cemented in society than they are.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们不确定该如何行事。
So they they're not sure how to be.
他们不确定是否应该使用那些熟悉的套路，但其实他们已经用了很多了。
They're not sure whether to to kind of use their kind of familiar tropes, but then they have used a lot of them to
很多。
a lot
用他们那些固定套路来试图给人留下深刻印象。
of their kind of set pieces to try and impress.
这简直让人受不了。
It's just it's unbearable.
无论如何，在那个场景中，叙述者评论道，我认为，这更像是事后诸葛亮式的叙述者说：不幸的是，这种失误与布洛克本想避免的完全相反。
Anyway, during that scene, the narrator comments, I think and then this this feels also more like the kind of hindsight narrator saying says, like, unfortunately, a gaffe was very much far from something that Block would try and avoid.
是的。
Yeah.
哦。
Oh.
哦，可怜的布洛克。
Oh, poor Block.
他确实是这一卷里的倒霉蛋。
He really is the loser of this volume.
他说话的方式也特别做作又荒谬。
He speaks in such a precious and absurd way as well.
嗯，她在第一卷时确实这样，但我认为现在叙述者对他没那么同情了，所以感觉更加尴尬和悲伤。
Well, she did in volume one, but I think because the narrator is less sympathetic to him now, so it just feels more awkward and sad.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就像他说的，他会用什么闪亮的头盔之类的说法。
Like he said, he'll say what it's like, with the shining helm or whatever.
他总是用荷马式的修饰语来形容每个人，我的意思是，想想自己的荷马式修饰语是什么，这让我分心了，但我觉得也许我们该说说
He's always using Homeric epithets for everyone, which, I mean, that's that's not trying to think of what your Homeric epithet would be is distracting me, but I think maybe we should Tell
稍后告诉我。
me later.
好。
Yes.
我稍后告诉你。
I'll tell you later.
我下次再告诉你。
I'll tell you next time.
我觉得现在大概是时候结束了。
I think it's probably time to wrap up.
我们现在在哪？
Where are we now?
比如，如果我们拉远视角，我们现在在哪，又要往哪里去？
Like, what if we zoom out, where are we now and where are we going?
让我们给听众一点方向感。
Let's give our listeners a bit of a sense.
我觉得我在这卷之后就没再读过更多内容了。
Well, I think I have not read any more of this after this volume.
所以，这真的算是进入未知领域了，但我认为我们已经认识了很多重要的角色。
So this this I mean, this this really is going into untarted territory now, but I I think we've met a lot of the really important characters.
我们认识了查尔斯，认识了让·路易，认识了埃利斯蒂夫，还认识了阿尔贝蒂娜。
We've met Charles, we met Jean Louis, we met Elistive, we met Albertine.
关于出现与消失有很多伏笔。
There's quite a lot of foreshadowing about appearance and disappearance.
下一卷好像叫《阿尔贝蒂娜的离去》，我想。
And later volume is called Albertine des Perieu, I think.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
It is.
对。
Yeah.
所以阿尔贝蒂娜是消失了？
So or did Albertine disappeared?
而且我们也差不多走到了叙述者童年的尽头，我想。
So and and we kind of got to the end of the narrator's childhood, I think, as well.
大致如此。
Roughly.
感觉他正进入一种新的社交生活，这种生活包含了贵族阶层。
It does feel like he's he's entering a new social life, one that includes the nobility.
而且在这一卷中，我们了解到他经济独立，非常富有。
And and we've we learned in the course of this volume that he is independently wealthy.
所以看起来，如果你有合适的人脉并且有足够的钱，即使你不是贵族，也能与贵族交往。
So it seems like that is one way to if you have the right connections and you have enough money, you can fraternize with a nobility even if you are not.
因此，我觉得我们能感受到，他在社会层面上正在向上攀升，而这就是故事接下来的发展方向。
So I think we're we're getting the sense that he, socially speaking, is upwardly mobile and that that is going to be where we go.
下一卷叫做《盖尔芒特之路》。
And the next the next volume is called the Guerremont Way.
盖尔芒特家族是世代拥有贡布雷土地的贵族家族，到目前为止，我们已经通过斯万认识了他们中的几位。
The Guerremont are the noble family who ancestrally hold the land where Compre is, and we've met several of them via swan so far.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以很明显，我们即将进入一个光彩夺目的社交世界。
So it it it seems clear that we're about to go into sort of a glittering social place.
但我这些卷册我现在读的，都是很久以前读过的译本，很多内容我都忘了。
But I these are now we're getting into the volumes that I've only read long ago and in translation, and I have forgotten much of.
所以我真的很期待继续读下去，艾玛。
So I'm I'm really excited to keep to keep reading, Emma.
我也非常期待。
I'm really excited.
我昨晚其实已经开始读下一卷的前几页了。
I actually started reading the first few pages last night of the next volume.
真为你高兴。
Love this for you.
我的那本在楼上我的办公室里。
My copy's upstairs in my office.
我会带回家，这个周末就开始读。
I'll take it home with me, and I'll start this weekend.
我错过了圣路易斯，因为他在《好莱坞音乐》结尾时失去了叙述者的关注，因为他太沉迷于这些女孩了。
I missed Saint Louis because he he loses the narrator's attention at the end of Hollywood music because he's so obsessed with these girls.
所以我希望确认一下，我们很快就能再见到他，因为我还想看更多。
So I wanted to check that we see we meet him again soon because I wanted more.
嗯，我觉得这就是
Well, I think that's
本期《普鲁斯特好奇》就到这里。
it for this episode of Proust Curious.
希望我们激发了你的兴趣。
We hope we've piqued your curiosity.
《普鲁斯特好奇》由艾玛·克劳森和汉娜·韦弗主持，由迈克尔·戈德史密斯制作。
Proust Curious is hosted by Emma Claussen and Hannah Weaver and produced by Michael Goldsmith.
你可以通过邮箱 proustcurious@gmail.com 联系我们。
You can reach us at proustcurious@gmail.com.
我们还要感谢我们的合作伙伴《公共书籍》——一份关于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。
We'd also like to thank our partner, Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.
请访问 publicbooks.org 了解更多。
Check it out at publicbooks.org.
你可以通过 proustcurious@gmail.com 联系我们。
You can reach us at proustcurious@gmail.com.
敬请期待下一期，第三卷《盖尔蒙特之路》。
Join us next time for volume three, The Guerremont Way.
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