所多玛与蛾摩拉 / Sodome et Gomorrhe

我只是想直接谈身体层面，因为我觉得这样最好。

Well, I just wanted to get straight to the physical because I thought that would be best.

但这一点实际上并没有被描述出来。

But this isn't actually described.

接下来发生的是这样的。

What happens is the following.

他说：我问阿尔贝蒂娜要不要喝点什么。

He says, I asked Albertine if she would like something to drink.

我好像看到那边有橙子和水，她说。

I seem to see oranges over there and water, she said.

那再好不过了。

That will be perfect.

于是我得以一边与她接吻，一边品尝到那股清凉，它在我眼中甚至超越了亲吻本身；而当我喝下那掺了橙汁的水时，仿佛橙子在水中向我吐露了它成熟时隐秘的呻吟。

I was thus able to taste together with her kisses that refreshing coolness, which had seemed to me to be superior to them at the And the orange squeezed into the water seemed to yield to me as I drank the secret life of its ripening groan.

它对人类身体某些状态具有益处，而人类身体属于完全不同的领域，却无力让这具身体真正活起来。

It's beneficial action upon certain states of that human body, which belongs so different a kingdom, its powerlessness to make that body live.

但另一方面，抱歉。

But on the other hand, sorry.

使它能够从中获益的灌溉过程。

The process of irrigation by which it was able to benefit it.

水果向我的感官知觉揭示了无数奥秘，但丝毫没有向我的理智揭示。

Countless mysteries unveiled by the fruit to my sensory perception, but not at all to my intelligence.

灌溉过程。

The process of irrigation.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

这太恶心了。

That's gross.

我非常喜欢。

I absolutely love it.

我觉得这太好笑了。

I just find this so funny.

然后她说完这句话就走了。

And then she just as soon as this has been said, just goes.

所以这就是全部了。

So this is it.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

喝橙汁就是他们之间的互动。

The drinking of the orange juice is the is the interaction that they have.

我要说，就像果汁与性一样，后来查尔斯说，其实我喝的是草莓汁，这个联系又出现了。

And I will say that, like, juice as sex comes back much later on when at the and Charles says, like, actually, I have a strawberry juice.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这件事背后有些情况在发生。

So there's there's something going on going on with this.

但我之所以提这个，是因为我说过，我觉得这很有趣。

But I wanted to bring this because as I said, I found it funny.

我认为这体现了普鲁斯特和叙述者所使用的那些出人意料的隐喻或联想的特点，而不是整本书的普遍特征。

I think it is characteristic, not of the whole volume at all, but of the surprising, like, metaphors or associations that Proust and the narrator make.

介于植物学和性之间。

Well, between the botanical and the sexual.

对吧？

Right?

它似乎又出现了。

It seems to be coming back

再次。

again.

当然。

Absolutely.

然后这涉及到句子结尾的某种东西。

And then it's for something about the end of the sentence.

无数的奥秘通过果实向我的感官揭示，却丝毫未向我的理智展现。

Countless mysteries unveiled by the fruit to my sensory perception, but not at all to my intelligence.

这确实似乎对文本中性欲的呈现至关重要。

And that actually does seem really crucial to the representation of sexuality in this text.

这似乎对阿尔伯特森的呈现也同样关键。

And it also seems crucial to the representation of Albertsson.

不是吗？

No?

她是个非常感性的人，但却完全无法捉摸。

Like, she's a very sensory creature, but like is totally ungraspable.

她似乎，再次强调，只通过否定来定义。

She seems sort of, again, only defined by negatives.

是的。

Yeah.

除了她的存在通过感官被感知的方式之外。

Except for the ways in which her presence is registered by the senses.

比如这里，她的吻尝起来像橙汁，但我们完全无法感受到她本人是什么样子。

Like here, the fact that her kisses taste like orange juice, but we don't have any sense of, like, what she's like.

不。

No.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

而这里呈现的感官与智力之间的二元对立，你知道的，还有这种对知识的渴望，如果你允许我这么说的话。

And that dichotomy that's being presented between, like, the senses and the intelligence, you know, and this kind of the thirst for knowledge, if you'll permit me.

是的。

Yes.

通过叙述者处理他的欲望和关系的方式，这一点让我觉得很有意思。

That tracks That through the way that the narrator deals with his desires and relationships is is interesting to me.

所以我觉得这既奇怪又有趣，但也具有代表性。

So I think this is both weird and fun, but also characteristic.

他有点在说，我其实不太清楚发生了什么，但我喜欢这样。

And he's kind of saying, I don't really know what's going on, but I liked it.

对。

Yeah.

尽管他对性越来越感兴趣，并且越来越试图分析他在日常生活中接收到的信息，但他对性在很多方面仍然相当天真。

He does remain, like, fairly naive in a lot of ways about sexuality despite being increasingly interested in it and increasingly attempting to analyze the data that he receives as he goes through his his daily life.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，我们还发现他完全无法理解或预见到双性恋的可能性。

You know, we also find him absolutely unable to compute or preempt the possibility of bisexuality.

所以他提到，他非常担心阿尔贝蒂娜是女同性恋。

So he said that he's really worried that Albertine is a lesbian.

但当他觉得她对自己有性趣时，他又觉得没问题。

But when he thinks she's interested sexually in, he's like, oh, it's fine.

她也可以对女性感兴趣啊。

It's not she can't also be interested in women.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，我们多次讨论过的他的天真，确实依然存在。

So he's his naivety that we've discussed many times, you know, does does remain.

《普鲁斯特好奇》由公共书籍网合作推出，这是一家专注于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。

Proust Curious is brought to you in partnership with publicbooks, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

您可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。

You can find us at publicbooks.org.

网址是 publicbooks.org。

That's publicbooks.org.

要为PublicBooks捐款，请访问publicbooks.org/donate。

To donate to publicbooks, visit publicbooks.org/donate.

叙述者的

The narrator's

在这卷书中，叙述者原始而本能的欲望非常突出，常被描述为一种食欲。

primal or instinctive desires are very present in this volume, and they're often framed as kind of appetite.

但在书的中段早期，有一段很长的内容中，这种欲望被彻底抑制了，而且明确地是由悲痛所导致的。

But there is a long section in the kind of early middle of the book where that is cauterized, and it is cauterized by grief very explicitly.

因此，它再次被比作食欲。

So and it's compared again to appetite.

叙述者说：悲痛彻底摧毁了我欲望的可能性，就像高烧完全剥夺了人的食欲一样。

So the narrator says, grief had destroyed in me the possibility of desire as completely as a high fever takes away one's appetite.

是的。

Yeah.

这是对祖母的哀悼，听众们可能还记得，当我们讨论第三卷中祖母去世的情节时，我们注意到它显得异常简略。

This is the grief for his grandmother, which listeners, you may recall that when we discussed the death of his grandmother in episode three about volume three, we noticed that it was, like, oddly underdeveloped.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们

They

感觉他作为叙述者观察了祖母去世的场景，但情感内容似乎缺失了。

felt like he the narrator observed the scenes of her death, but that the emotional content was somehow missing.

而在这里，我们找到了它，甚至对阅读第三卷时产生的那种感受有了一个回溯性的解释。

And here we find it, and even we have sort of a retrospective explanation of that sensation from reading volume three.

于是他抵达了巴贝克。

So he arrives in Ba'bek.

他因旅途而精疲力尽。

He's exhausted from the trip.

他走上房间，突然意识到祖母已经去世了。

He goes up to his room, and he suddenly realizes that his grandmother is dead.

这段文字以一个五词句子开头。

And this passage starts with a five word sentence.

在普鲁斯特的作品中，句子常常长达数页，因此一个仅有五个词的碎片化句子，已经为这段文字提供了一个相当强烈的开端，这句话是——或者按照修订后的蒙克里夫译本所说——我整个存在的剧烈动荡。

Now, in Proust, the sentences are often pages and pages long, so to have a five word fragmentary sentence is already a pretty strong beginning to this passage, and that sentence is, or as the revised Moncrieff would have it, upheaval of my entire being.

这句话本身便是一种动荡，因为它实在太短了。

The sentence itself is an upheaval because it because it's so short.

因此，从形式上看，它恰恰反映了内心所发生的一切。

And so really formally, it's reflecting what's going on.

他突然通过一种平静的行动——就像吃玛德琳蛋糕那样——通过一件极其平凡的小事，即脱下靴子，意识到自己再也不能与祖母身体相依了。

And he suddenly very physically, through an anodyne action, again, like the eating of the Madeline, through something totally quotidian, which in this case is taking off his boot, realizes that he will never be with his grandmother again physically.

艾玛，你能为我们读一下这段文字的其余部分吗？

Emma, could you maybe read us the rest of the passage?

好的。

Yeah.

我也会提供一些背景信息。

And I'll give a bit of of context as well.

我的意思是，这段文字极其感人。

I mean, this is in it's incredibly moving.

这也彻底改变了之前在贝尔贝克的时光，因为我们得知她那时一直身体很差，却对叙述者隐瞒了这一点。

It also just transforms the previous time in Bellebeck because we do learn that she was really unwell the whole time and concealing that from the narrator.

对。

Right.

就像文本对我们隐瞒了这一点一样。

Just as the text conceals that from us.

因此，他们之间这段关系以及共度的时光，表面上看起来如此美好轻松，实际上对她而言却非常艰难。

So this relationship and this time that they have together, which seems so lovely and easy, actually turns out to have been really difficult for her.

总之，让我们谈谈他如何突然回忆起并重新遇见她，同时意识到她已经离世了。

Anyway, so this is so let's talk about, where he suddenly remembers and re encounters her at the same time as realizing that she's actually gone.

于是他开始脱掉靴子，想起了祖母在他第一次入住时，也是在极度疲惫和沮丧的情况下为他脱靴的情景。

So he starts to remove his boots and he remembers his grandmother removing them on his first stay when he was also really exhausted and dispirited.

我想我们在第二集中讨论过，他觉得旅行非常艰难，对新环境也很难适应。

And I think we talked in episode two about how he found travel really difficult and a new place really difficult.

因此，当时她在那里帮助他应对这一切。

So she's there at that point to help him cope.

他脱靴子这个动作，与过去祖母为他脱靴子的场景形成了一种韵律，让他想起祖母活着时的样子，而不仅仅是一个他并不怎么怀念的名字。

The rhyme between the two physical actions of, you know, his him removing his boots, his grandmother having removed them in the past, allows him to think of her as she was when she was alive, rather than just as a mere name who he doesn't miss that much.

于是，悲伤终于袭来，他彻底崩溃了。

So the grief finally hits him and he is devastated.

这段文字真是太精彩了，也太令人心碎了。

And this passage is just so so incredible and it's so sad.

就是这里。

Here it is.

我刚刚在记忆中看到，祖母俯身在我疲惫的身体上方，脸上带着那晚我们初到时她特有的温柔、忧虑与失望的表情。

I had just perceived in my memory, stooping over my fatigue, the tender, preoccupied, disappointed face of my grandmother as she had been on that first evening of our arrival.

这不是我曾惊讶于自己对她如此冷漠、觉得她与我记忆中的祖母毫无共同之处、仅剩其名的那位祖母，而是我真正的祖母——自她在香榭丽舍大街中风那天下午以来，我第一次通过完整而自发的回忆，重新捕捉到了她鲜活的面容。

The face, not of that grandmother whom I had been astonished and remorseful at having so little mist, and who had nothing in common with her, save her name, but of my real grandmother, of whom, for the first time since the afternoon of her stroke in the Champs Elysees, I now recaptured the living reality in a complete and involuntary recollection.

只要我们的思想没有重新创造它，这种真实就对我们而言并不存在。

This reality does not exist for us so long as it has not been recreated by our thought.

否则，所有经历过史诗般冲突的人，都将成为伟大的史诗诗人。

Otherwise, men who have been engaged in a titanic conflict, all of them be great epic poets.

因此，在我狂热地想要扑进她怀中的那一刻，距离她下葬已超过一年，正是由于这种常常使事实日历与情感日历无法对齐的错位，我才意识到她已经去世了。

And thus, in my wild desire to fling myself into her arms, it was only at that moment, more than a year after her burial, because of that anachronism which so often prevents the calendar of facts from corresponding to the calendar of feelings, that I became conscious that she was dead.

哦，这种错位或双重日历的概念。

Oh, that idea of an anachronism or the two calendars.

而且是的。

And Yeah.

还有，小说形式如此精妙地让我们置身于这两种日历之中。

And and just the brilliance of the way the form of the novel puts us on those two calendars.

对吧？

Right?

比如，至少在阅读的过程中，我们也在祖母去世与我们真正哀悼她之间度过了时间。

Like, we too have passed the time of reading at the very least between the death of the grandmother and the grief for the grandmother.

是的。

Yeah.

事实的日历和情感的日历，真是令人难以忘怀。

The calendar of facts and the calendar of feelings, it was quite quite unforgettable.

让我感到震撼的是名字与现实之间的差异。

What also kills me here is the difference between the name and the reality.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

他怀念的不是她的名字，而是他真正的祖母。

That that he doesn't miss her name, but he misses his real grandmother.

这只是一个如此简单的短语，一点也不繁复——‘我真正的祖母’，但不知为何，却如此直击人心。

And that's just such a simple phrase and not baroque at all, my real grandmother, but somehow just so such a gut punch, really.

我想我从未遇到过如此准确地表现悲伤的作品，那种你无法选择何时被关于那个人的强烈记忆突然袭来的感受。

I've never encountered something like this, I don't think, that so accurately represents grief and the way that you can't really choose the moment that you're visited by the really visceral memory of the person.

对。

Right.

还有那种他们曾经真实存在于世间的物理性感觉。

And and the kind of the physicality of the sensation that they had once really existed in the world.

是的。

Yeah.

在接下来的段落中，叙述者沉重地写道：我知道，我可能一小时又一小时地等待，她却再也不会陪在我身边。

And later on in the passage, the narrator goes on devastatingly, I knew that I might wait hour after hour, that she would never again be by my side.

我刚刚才意识到这一点，因为我刚刚才第一次感受到她真实地活着，感受到她的存在让我的心几乎要爆裂，就在发现她终于出现的那一刻，我才明白我已经永远失去了她。

I had only just discovered this because I had only just, on feeling her for the first time alive, real, making my heart swell to breaking point on finding her at last, learned that I had lost her forever.

这个发现，当然就是

That finding, of course, being

她。

her

上次他脱靴子的时候。

taking off his boots the other time.

于是他意识到，祖母的存在在他内心持续的温情体验中，存在着一种矛盾。

So he realizes there's this contradiction between the survival of his grandmother within the ongoing experience of her affection as it has become internalized.

所以，是的，它存在于记忆中，但又不仅仅是记忆。

So, yes, it's in memory, but it's it's kind of more than memory.

对吧？

Right?

它也可以通过物理形式几乎重新演绎出来，但正是这种重现突显了她的消失。

It's like also it can be almost reenacted by by physical forms, but there's also that very reenaction drives home her disappearance.

他继续说，那段温情的时光只是短暂的一瞬，除此之外的时期，他们形同陌路。

And he he goes on to say that period of affection is only this brief window, and outside of that period, they are strangers.

比如，在他出生之前，他们没有任何关系。

Like, before his birth, they have no relationship.

而在她去世之后，他们在某种根本意义上也毫无关系。

And after her death, they, in some sort of fundamental way, have no relationship.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为祖父母与孙辈之间的关系特别能体现这种短暂的共存窗口。

And I think that's something that the relationship between grandparents and grandchildren can particularly express, like, the very the brief window of coexistence.

我的意思是，从更广泛的意义上说，悲伤也是如此，你知道，因为日历这种东西并不遵循机械的、预期的时间线，没有任何事情是有固定时间表的。

I mean, it is true about grief in a larger sense as well, you know, depending because, you know, this question of calendars, calendars just don't operate on a kind of mechanical kind of expected you know, there's no set timeline for anything.

但我确实认为，这里特别之处在于，这是他的祖母，连接着一个更早得多的时代，以及他必须在没有她的情况下长久生活的这种预期——这一点在之前的贝德贝克部分也曾讨论过。

But I do think that there is something particular about the fact that this is his grandmother here and connection with a much, much earlier time and the kind of expectation that he's gonna have to live a long time without her, which they do talk about in Beldbeck before.

所以，我想我们在这里触及了这个项目中的许多关键问题。

So, I mean, we find here so many of the key questions of the project.

你知道，你有祖母的非自愿记忆，有年代错置的问题，有不同时间线的问题，还有他自身感受到最充满生命力的时刻。

You know, you've got the involuntary memory of the grandmother, the question of anachronism, the question of different kinds of timelines, and then the fact that he's kind of feeling at his most alive himself.

他感到自己最充满生命力，是在一种

He's feeling at his most alive himself in a

意义上，因为他完全体会到了这种人类情感。

sense because he is fully feeling this human emotion.

对吧？

Right?

他真的在经历这一切。

Like, he's he's he's really going through it.

尽管这些时刻很可怕，但它们正是你最敏锐地意识到作为活着的人意味着什么的时刻。

And as horrible as those moments are, they are moments where you are most keenly aware of perhaps what it means to be a human who is alive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

然后将她的生命承载于自身。

And then carrying her life in him.

对。

Right.

在某种程度上，这让他更加敏锐地意识到自己的肉体存在。

In a in some ways makes him feel extra extra conscious of his physical existence.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

我们还看到他的母亲在悲痛中挣扎，因为她陪他去了巴贝克。

And we see also his mother really struggling with her grief because she accompanies him to Ba'bek.

我们看到她在某种程度上正在变成她母亲的样子，但显然这也是一种有意识或无意识的模仿，几乎像一个拟像，就像你之前谈到的幽灵般存在。

And we see that she is sort of transforming in some ways into her mother, but obviously, is also that's also like a conscious or unconscious mimicry, almost like a simulacrum, like you were talking earlier about haunting.

嗯。

Mhmm.

她似乎被母亲的离世深深困扰。

She seems very haunted by the loss of her mother.

是的。

Yeah.

我们确实也看到了你之前提到的那种间歇性和交替性，艾玛。

We do also see that intermittence and sort of alternation that you signaled before, Emma.

他最终能够再次感受到欲望。

He is eventually able to feel desire again.

他最终能够从悲痛中走出 enough 感受到欲望，而令人惊讶的是，我们第一次看到这种欲望重现时，他最渴望的是阿尔伯特·金的笑声。

He's eventually able to crawl out of his grief enough to feel desire, and it's striking that the first time we see that resurface, what he wants most is Albert Kim's laughter.

所以他一直与生活脱节，远离社交和日常生活。

So he's kind of been withdrawn from life, from social life, from his ordinary life.

我认为这部剧的结构在某种程度上反映了这一点。

And I think in some ways, the structure of this episode reflects that.

因此，大部分内容都围绕着另一种生活展开，而这段则是一个极其强烈、孤立的关于悲痛的段落。

So most of the text is about that other life, and then this is kind of very intense isolated passage about about grief.

有一天，他说，我决定通知阿尔贝蒂娜，我会马上见她。

And then one day, he says, I decided to send word to Albertine that I would see her presently.

我应该说，她一直试图见他，而他一直拒绝邀请。

I should say she's been trying to see him all the time, he's been rejecting invitations.

所以他决定马上去见她。

So he said he would he decided he would see her presently.

因为在某个异常炎热的早晨，无数孩童嬉戏的叫声、游泳者的欢闹声、报童的叫卖声，为我勾勒出一条条炽热的线条，交织成旋转闪烁的光影，那正是被微浪逐个轻抚、洒下凉意的灼热海滩。

This was because on a morning of intense and premature heat, the myriad cries of children at play, of bathers disporting themselves, of news vendors had traced for me in lines of fire, in wheeling interlacing flashes, the scorching beach which the little waves came up one by one to sprinkle with their coolness.

随后，交响音乐会开始了，与海浪的拍打声交织在一起，小提琴的旋律如同一群迷失在海面上的蜜蜂嗡嗡作响。

Then the symphony concert had begun, mingled with the lapping of the surf, through which the violins hummed like a swarm of bees that had strayed out over the sea.

我立刻渴望听到阿尔贝蒂娜的笑声。

At once, I had longed to hear Albertine's laughter.

所以这是一种巨大的扩展，是的。

So it's this great expansion Yeah.

向世界的延伸，而他立刻渴望为这个世界增添的，正是阿尔贝蒂娜的笑声。

Into the world, and what he immediately longs to add to that world is the sound of Abetin's laughter.

我觉得这非常引人注目，这并不是一场关于橙汁的闲聊，而是他真正追寻的，一种甚至未必与性有关的声音。

And I just find that so striking that it's not an orange juice make out session, but that it's, in fact, a sound that's not even necessarily sexual that he's really looking for.

是的。

Yeah.

她的形象确实是由笑声定义的，不是吗？

She's really defined by her laughter, isn't she?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但这也象征着他有多么不理解她。

But that's also a figure for how much he doesn't understand her.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

因为笑声是一种他无法完全理解的声音，这让他既感兴趣又感到不安。

Because laughter is a sound that he doesn't totally know how to read and that makes him kind of interested and uncomfortable.

对。

Right.

他们的关系非常复杂。

Their relationship is very complex.

确实如此，部分原因在于它如此难以捉摸。

It is it's partially complex because it's so inscrutable.

是的。

Yeah.

就像她的笑声一样。

Just like her laughter.

我们已经提到过这一点，但问题的一部分在于，这段关系似乎更像嫉妒而非爱。

It's and we've mentioned this already, but yeah, part of part of the problem is that the relationship seems less one of love than of jealousy.

但正是这种嫉妒，才维持了他对阿尔贝蒂娜的痴迷关注。

But the jealousy is also the thing that sustains his obsessive attention to to Albertine.

这就是为什么在所有我们听过的其他女孩和女人中，她成为了特别的那一个。

It's why she becomes the one out of all these other girls and women who we've been hearing about in some ways.

尽管我们已经见过他对吉尔贝特表现出嫉妒或占有欲。

Although we have already seen him be jealous or a bit possessive of Gilbert.

而他之所以能放下她，原因也像我们之前讨论的那样，有些奇怪且难以理解。

And the reason that he gets over her is a little is also kind of bizarre and inscrutable as we have discussed in in Yes.

第二集的部分内容。

Parts episode two.

是的。

Yes.

他不断发明各种方法留住她，行为十分阴险且令人不快。

He's constantly inventing ways to keep her with him and being quite devious and unpleasant.

而且他还很操纵人，比如他虚构了一个未婚妻，然后让对方和她分手。

And and and manipulative and and, like, he invents a fiance who breaks things off with it.

基本上，他不择手段，明显是违背她的意愿把她留住。

Like, he's just he's not above any ruse, basically, to to keep her against her will, very clearly against her will.

她显然有其他让她兴奋的计划，但他却设法把她困住了。

She'll clearly have other plans that she's excited about, and he manages to sort of cage her.

事实上，下一卷的名字就叫《囚徒》。

And indeed, I mean, the next volume is called The Prisoner.

所以我们可以推测，这位女性囚徒会是谁。

So I think we can anticipate who La Prisoner, the female prisoner shall be.

这根本不需要什么高深的智慧就能想明白。

It takes no no great genius to put that together.

但有趣的是，他确实对她充满嫉妒。

But what's so interesting is that he's certainly jealous of her.

他是否真的爱她，甚至是否喜欢她，都并不明确。

It's not so clear whether he loves her or indeed likes her very much.

这让我想起了天鹅与奥德特。

It kind of reminds me of Swan and Odette.

对吧？

Right?

这是对他们形象的重演。

And this is the reenactment of their figura.

对吧？

Right?

我之前提到过，他们之间是一种类型学关系，而这里我们看到了他们之前预示的实现。

I talked about how they were kind of in a typological relationship, and here we see the fulfillment of the prefiguration that they had offered.

这一点尤其耐人寻味，因为我觉得，到这个时候，天鹅实际上已经去世了。

And that's especially resonant because I mean, Swan, I think, has died by this point, actually.

但在他去世前，他去了我们之前提到的那场派对，并且就嫉妒这个话题进行了一番对话。

But just before he dies, he goes to that party that we talked about that happens at the beginning, and they have a conversation about jealousy.

所以他相当于把接力棒传了下去。

So he's kind of like handing on the baton.

是的。

Right.

但不仅仅是嫉妒，对吧？

But it's not only jealousy, is it?

嫉妒和爱之间有一种交织。

There is a kind of intertwining between jealousy and love.

而这些都是普鲁斯特在深入思考的两个概念。

And those are two concepts that Proust is thinking about a lot.

我的意思是，还有查尔斯和莫雷尔之间的关系，我们没时间讨论了。

I mean, also in the relationship between Charles and Morell that we don't have time to talk about.

但查尔斯在本卷末尾也深深爱着对方。

But Charles was also very much in love towards the end of this volume.

所以

So

而且同样具有操控性。

And it's equally manipulative.

是的。

Yeah.

叙述者所得到的模式是，是的。

The model that the narrator is getting is that Yeah.

如果你迷恋某人，就会试图操控他们，让他们尽可能多地陪伴在你身边。

If you're infatuated with someone, the move is to manipulate them into being with you as much as possible.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，嫉妒和真正的爱之间存在着这种交织或双重动机。

So there's this kind of intertwining or kind of double motivation of jealousy and actual love.

我不确定称其为‘真正的爱’是否恰当？

I don't know if actual love, is that fair to call it that?

但无论如何，这一点在接下来的段落中有所体现。

But anyway, that that is represented in the following passage.

例如，我或许爱着阿尔贝蒂娜，但我不敢让她看出我的爱，因此尽管这种爱在我心中存在，却只能像一种无价值的抽象真理，直到它经受过经验的检验。

For example, I was perhaps in love with Albertine, but I did not dare to let her see my love so that though it existed in me, it could only be like an abstract truth of no value until it had been has been tested by experience.

事实上，我觉得它无法实现，超出了生活之外。

As it was, it seemed to me unrealizable and outside the plane of life.

一方面，这就是爱。

That's love on the one hand.

至于我的嫉妒，它促使我尽可能少地离开阿尔贝蒂娜，尽管我知道，只有在永远与她分开后，这种嫉妒才可能彻底消失。

As for my jealousy, it urged me to leave Albertine as little as possible, although I knew that it would not be completely cured until I had parted from her forever.

我觉得这里很有趣，爱是抽象的，但可能通过经验来验证，而且必须保持隐秘。

I find it so interesting here that love is abstract, but could potentially be tested by experience, and also something that must remain hidden.

所以他觉得，自己成功地将某种东西保持在阴影的领域中，嗯。

So he thinks that he's successfully keeping something as it were in the realm of shadows Mhmm.

也许只可能被投射到这个领域中。

Only maybe ever to be projected into this realm.

真奇怪。

So odd.

我显然在使用柏拉图式的语言，因为我觉得这非常古怪。

I'm I'm using obviously Platonic language here because I find it deeply weird.

但另一方面，嫉妒就像超级胶水。

But then jealousy on the other hand is just like super glue.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他试图隐藏某种东西真的很奇怪，而那东西恰恰可以说是嫉妒唯一的可能动机。

I find it truly strange that he would attempt to hide something that could be, I would say, the only possible motive for jealousy.

除非你有点爱上了和你约会的人，否则你为什么会嫉妒他呢？

Why would you be jealous of the person you're hooking up with unless you're kind of in love with them?

显然，他没明白。

Clearly, don't get it.

我的意思是，尽管叙述者对自己的感受和行为有着极其细微的微观关注，但他所面对的却是自己并不真正理解的东西。

I mean, even though the narrator has this really minute kind of microscopic attention to his feelings and actions, he's dealing with something that he doesn't really understand.

我的意思是，将爱、欲望和依恋表现为常常是扭曲的、自我挫败的、难以捉摸的，这在某种程度上是可以理解的。

I mean, I think the representation of love, desire, attachment as often perverse, self defeating, and elusive is quite understandable in a way.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且，你知道的，还有其他关于爱与依恋的模型。

And, you know, other models of love and attachment are available.

但这种模式在生活和文学中都是可以辨认的。

But this one is recognizable in life and and in literature.

我想，嫉妒还有另一个方面，那就是当他们彼此靠近时，嫉妒会被极大地激发。

And I suppose that there is this other facet to the jealousy that that is that it's just incredibly stimulated when they're near each other.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

眼不见心不烦，是的。

It's a little bit out of sight, out of mind Yeah.

尤其是随着情节的发展，但最终，是她与阿万泰小姐关系中爆发的嫉妒促使他决定娶她。

Especially as the volume progresses, but then ultimately it is the crashing jealousy of her relationship with Mademoiselle Aventay that leads him to decide that he must marry her.

因此，正如我们在这里所见，爱与嫉妒是两回事，它们处于一种矛盾的关系中。

So as as we've seen here, love and jealousy are two different things, and and they're sort of in an ambivalent relationship.

它们几乎像是两个相互拉扯的极点。

They're almost like two poles that pull against each other.

是的。

Yeah.

从根本上说，这是一段由矛盾定义的关系，正如普鲁斯特在一段非常优美的文字中所阐明的那样，我只简要提一下：叙述者想象着阿尔贝蒂娜在海岸线上，同样的风轻拂着他们的脸庞。

And fundamentally, this is a relationship defined by ambivalence as Proust makes clear in quite a beautiful passage that I'll only quite very briefly, but it's where the narrator is imagining Albertine kind of down the coast and that, like, the same wind is brushing their faces.

他将他们比作两个孩子，就像那些游戏中，两个孩子短暂地彼此看不见，却又近在咫尺，尽管相隔遥远，却依然紧密相连。

And he compares them to being like two children as in those games in which two children find themselves momentarily out of sight and near short of one another and yet while far apart remain together.

因此，这种距离的互动构成了他们关系中的一种刺激因素，同时也体现了他们如何努力重新靠近。

So there is this interplay of distance that is kind of part of the stimulation of of of their relationship, but also the way that they then are kind of seeking to come back together.

而嫉妒正是推动这一切的动力。

And jealousy is a kind of motor for that.

对。

Right.

而且他们参与的是同一个游戏。

And the sense in which they're involved in the same game.

是的。

Yeah.

他们都是同一个游戏中的玩家，有着相似的动机或目标。

That they're that they're both players in the same game with similar motivations or or or goals.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这个游戏有时有趣，有时感人，但并不总是令人愉快。

A game that sometimes is funny, sometimes is touching, doesn't always seem to be very fun.

说得对。

Fair enough.

它并不总是显得

It doesn't always seem to be

对任何人来说都很有趣。

very fun for for anyone.

对任何一位参与者来说都是如此。

For either participant.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

好吧，艾玛，尽管今天我们谈到了诸如性、死亡、时光不可逆转等重大主题，但我想我们都能同意，这本书某种程度上也

Well, Emma, even even though we've hit the big themes today of the I don't know, sex, death, the irretrievable passage of time, I think we can both agree that this was also sort

是一本有趣又荒诞的书。

of a funny and silly book.

在很长一段时间里都是如此。

For for long stretches.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们说这本书讲的是性、欲望和死亡，但其中也有很长的段落完全不涉及这些内容。

So we said that this is all about sex and desire and death, but there are very long sections that are not about this at all.

比如，它们讲的是如何在聚会时跟人打招呼。

Like, they're about essentially how to say hi to people at gathering.

比如一些有趣的人物速写，像两个被称作‘番茄一’和‘番茄二’的门童或酒店工作人员。

Like, funny character sketches, these two, like bellhop or like hotel staff that are referred to as tomato one and tomato two, for example.

我最喜欢的就是他们。

That's who I loved.

可惜他们没有得到更多篇幅。

Shame they didn't get more of a hearing.

就像我们之前讨论过的卷册一样，我们还发现了大量关于艺术、文学和时尚的精彩而犀利的观察。

And then we also find, as we have discussed about previous volumes, all the usual interesting and acerbic observations on art, literature, and fashion.

有一个特别搞笑的场景，讲的是大家对肖邦这位作曲家的态度：他刚被说成过时了，转眼又变得流行，所有人都困惑不已，只想着说对话、装酷。

This really funny scene with the compliments about how Chopin, the composer, is out, but then he's in and everyone's confused and just trying to say the right thing and be cool.

你知道的。

You know?

对。

Right.

所以所有这些都依然存在。

So All of that is still there.

而且我认为，正是性、死亡和时间在这些片段之间交织的方式，构成了这次阅读中另一个极具智力吸引力的部分。

And I think, actually, the way that the very, you know, sex, death, and time are are interwoven between those is another really intellectually compelling part of this read.

我同意。

I would agree.

这一卷在基调上极为多变。

This volume this volume was tonally, extremely varied.

是的。

Yeah.

这种多样性有时可能略显突兀，但同时也是这一卷特别令人享受之处之一。

And that was part of the, like, at times, maybe a little bit jarring, but but also, like, I would say, one of the pleasures of this volume in particular.

是的

Yeah.

我可以总结为，这是一本让我深思的、需要付出艰苦努力的书。

I would summarize that it was hard work that made me think so much.

非常、非常有启发性。

Very, very stimulating.

是的

Yeah.

艾玛，我想现在该公布我们的胜者和败者了。

Emma, I think it's time for our winners and losers.

当然。

Absolutely.

艾玛，你的胜者是谁？

Emma, who is your winner?

我有一个有点

I've got a kind

喜剧类赢家。

of comedy winner.

我的第四集赢家仍然是。

My winner again for episode four was.

好的。

Okay.

行。

Fine.

就是因为这个。

Because of that.

解释一下。

Explain yourself.

她那强烈的女同气质。

Her big lesbian energy.

她那强烈的女同气质，正是让叙述者决定嫁给阿尔伯特森的原因。

Her big lesbian energy being what convinces the narrator to marry Albertson.

是的

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

让我简短地引用一下，然后我们继续。

Just let me let me just quote incredibly briefly, and we'll move on.

那句话，‘朋友被埃尔文特激怒了’，就像一把万能钥匙，我本不可能自己发现它，正是它让阿尔贝蒂娜深入我破碎的心灵。

The words, that friend is mad with El Vente had been the open sesame, which I should have been incapable of discovering by myself, that had made Albertine penetrate to the depths of my lacerated heart.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我知道。

I know.

所以我就想

So I'm like

她会说，我们甚至不用见她，但她实在太有影响力了。

she's like, should we don't even meet her in this, but she's just so powerful.

她的存在，以及第一卷中对她的记忆如此强大，以至于她以她的方式以及对我们的角色产生的影响赢得了胜利。

And her presence, the memory of her from volume one is so powerful that she wins in the way that she and the impact that she has on our characters.

来自小说。

From the novel.

是的。

Yeah.

她才是真正的赢家。

It was your winner.

对于一个我们从未真正互动过的人，却如此有影响力。

Powerful for someone that we never actually interact with.

是的。

Yeah.

到目前为止，完全正确。

Exactly so far.

所以，到目前为止。

So No far.

她为我赢了。

She wins for me.

你呢？

What about you?

我写了‘没有人’，我觉得我们可以就此打住。

I wrote nobody question mark, and I think we can leave it there.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这是另一个有力的答案。

I think that's the the strong other answer.

谁

Who

对你来说，谁是输家？

was the loser for you?

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

好吧。

Okay.

所以我的输家是卡塔尔。

So my loser was Qatar.

好吧。

Okay.

公平。

Fair.

可以，但你能简要说明一下为什么吗？

Could but do you want to say briefly why?

再说一遍，他就是第一卷里那个笨蛋医生。

Again, he's the physician who was a dope in the first volume.

我们了解到他最喜欢的笑话是关于滑雪的，记不太清了。

We we learned that his favorite joke is about, you know, can't remember it's Skis.

所以其中一个角色，那位雕塑家说：哦，我认识她。

So one of the characters, the sculptor says, oh, I know her.

加塔冲进来问：你是说你和她有肉体关系吗？

And Gata rushes in to be like, do you mean you know her biblically?

你知道的，他

You know, he's

他是最差的。

He is the worst.

他是最差的。

He's the worst.

他一直在讲那些恶心、下流的老头笑话。

He's making all these, like, gross, lewd, old man jokes.

是的。

Yeah.

而且更重要的是，他的生意在沿海地区并不兴旺。

Well, and what's more, his his business is not thriving on the coast.

确实如此。

It's true.

他正在亏损。

He's losing.

他真是个失败者。

He is such a loser.

还有另一点说明他为什么是个失败者。

And just one more thing about why he's a loser.

有一段时间，查尔斯以为科特对他有性方面的兴趣，但实际上科特并没有。

At one point, Charles thinks that Cotter, he's wrong, but he thinks that Cotter is sexually interested in him.

他感到无比厌恶，以至于整整用了三页纸来描述被一个你觉得恶心的人追求是多么糟糕。

And he is so revolted that we get, like, three pages on how terrible it is to be desired by somebody that you find repulsive.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我的失败者也是。

So is my loser.

你的失败者是谁？

Who is your loser?

我的失败者稍微真诚一点。

My loser is a bit more sincere.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

我的意思是，科塔德是个失败者。

My I mean, Cotard is a is a loser.

这是个绝佳的选择。

It's a great pick.

我的失败者是他母亲。

My my loser was his mother.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

看起来她在各个方面都在失利。

It seems like she's losing on all fronts.

她正深深陷入失去母亲的悲痛之中。

She's like really struggling with grief about her mother.

与此同时，她的儿子却与一个她不喜欢的人交往，并且现在打算和她结婚。

And meanwhile, her son is getting involved with and now planning to marry someone whom she doesn't like.

是的。

Yeah.

他们的关系非常亲密，但也充满疏离感。

And their relationship is quite close, but also marked by alienation.

所以，是的，从这个角度看，她是一个非常悲伤的角色。

So, yeah, she's a very sad figure in this in this way.

我只是觉得她简直像一个被压抑的幽灵，四处漂荡，她确实如此。

I just feel like she feels almost like a thwarted ghost just drifting around She truly does.

她不参与任何行动，却深受行动的伤害。

And and not part of the action, but but hurt by the action.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个非常真实的观察，也是一种对失败者不同的定义。

That's a very true observation and also a different kind of definition of loser.

她本质上被失落所标记。

She is fundamentally marked by loss.

好的。

Alright.

这也对。

That's true too.

是的。

Yeah.

所以在这种情况下，她是一个非常字面意义上的失败者。

So that's a very literal loser in this in this case.

那么，当我们总结这个项目时，我们处于什么位置呢？

And where are we then as we wrap up in terms of this project as a whole?

实际上，这里有一件重要的事情要说。

Well, actually, there's something important to say here.

这是普鲁斯特在世时出版的最后一卷。

This was the last volume that was published while Proust was still alive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，尽管他在去世前已经算是‘完成’了作品，但他是个痴迷的修订者和自我增补者，不断回头添加、再添加、继续添加。

So though he had sort of quote unquote finished before he died, he was an obsessive reviser and auto interpolator going back and adding and adding and adding.

这就是为什么。

And that's why

嗯。

Mhmm.

前四卷非常长，对吧？

The first four volumes are deeply long, am I?

我们可以达成共识。

We can we can agree.

尽管我们如此喜爱它们，但它们确实非常长。

For all that we've loved them, they've been really quite long.

接下来的三卷是在他去世后出版的，因此它们已经达到了足以出版的完成度，但不像法语中所说的那样，缺少了他反复修改、增补和精炼的痕迹。

The next three were published posthumously, and so they were in a state of enough completion that they could be published, but they didn't kind of have that as they say in French, the stuffing of him going back and adding and refining and adding and refining.

所以我们发现最后三卷要短得多，也少了很多修订。

So we're we're kind of falling into the last three volumes being much shorter and much less revised.

是的。

Yeah.

这将会很有趣。

It's gonna be interesting.

我还觉得我们会看到更多令人痛苦的阿尔贝蒂娜。

I also think we're gonna get more of the miserable Albertine.

更多关于阿尔贝蒂娜的痛苦。

More of Albertine's misery.

确实，下一卷是《女囚》。

Indeed, the next volume, The Prisoner.

本期《普鲁斯特好奇》就到这里。

That's it for this episode of Proust Curious.

希望我们激发了你的兴趣。

We hope we've piqued your curiosity.

如果你喜欢这个播客，请告诉你的朋友。

If you like the podcast, please tell a friend about it.

《普鲁斯特好奇》由艾玛·克劳森和汉娜·韦弗主持，由迈克尔·戈德·史密斯制作。

Proust Curious is hosted by Emma Claussen and Hannah Weaver and produced by Michael Gold Smith.

你可以通过邮箱 proustcurious@gmail.com 联系我们。

You can reach us at proustcurious@gmail.com.

我们还要感谢我们的合作伙伴《公共书籍》，这是一本关于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。

We'd also like to thank our partner, publicbooks, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

请访问 publicbooks.org 了解更多。

Check it out at publicbooks.org.

下次请和我们一起进入第五卷。

Join us next time for volume five,