囚徒 / La prisonnière

所以，嗯。

So Mhmm.

这句话充满了怀疑。

It just is so infused with doubt, this sentence.

这不仅仅是他不确定自己是否爱她。

So it's not just that he doesn't know whether he loves her.

他甚至不确定自己是否不爱她。

He doesn't know whether he doesn't love her.

在这本书中，爱与怀疑是紧密相连的。

Love and doubt are really twinned in this book.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这似乎是他关于爱的完整哲学中非常重要的一部分。

It seems to be a big part of his full if we're gonna say philosophy of love.

对他而言，很多方面都是将爱延伸到其他概念，比如怀疑、嫉妒和占有，是的。

For him, a lot of that is reaching outside of love to other ideas like doubt, jealousy, possession Yeah.

等等。

Etcetera.

我不认为爱在这本书中是作为一个孤立存在的对象。

I don't think love just exists as a solo object in this

对。

No.

书。

Book.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

另外，这让我想起我的一位同事在一篇关于阿尔贝蒂娜形象的文章中写过的内容，我们会在节目笔记中提供链接。

Also, that reminds me of something that one of my colleagues wrote in an article on the figure of Albertine, but we'll link to in the show notes.

我想它叫《寻找阿尔贝蒂娜》，作者是维多利亚·巴埃纳。

It's I think it's called In Search of Albertine by Victoria Baena.

她谈到，对叙述者而言，爱是一种认识论上的驱动力。

And she talks about how love for narrator is a kind of epistemological drive.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这全都是关于不了解她的生活，不了解他的感受，不了解……是的。

So it's all about, like, not knowing not knowing about her life, not knowing how he feels, not knowing Yeah.

她怎么想，或者爱是什么。

How she feels or what love is.

是的。

Yeah.

这真的发人深省。

And that's really thought provoking.

对吧？

Right?

它激发了好奇心。

It provokes curiosity.

所以他也不确定自己是否爱她。

So he's not sure he loves her.

他一直在想分手和想留住她之间反复摇摆。

He swings all the time between wanting to break up and wanting to keep her.

因此，这种无尽的交替在他口中被称为两栖类爱情，这真是美妙。

So there is this kind of endless alternation that at one point he refers to as amphibian love, Which is wonderful.

我不禁想，这是否就是他趁她睡着时所逃避的东西。

And I wonder if that's the thing that he escapes when she's asleep.

因为那时，呼吸完全是流动的，却又具有一种既非言语也非沉默的坚实感。

Because then it's wholly fluid, the breath, but also has a solidity neither of speech nor of silence.

所以，这某种程度上是他逃离了清醒时完全被困住的这种二元对立。

So it's sort of escaping this binary that when they're awake, he's absolutely trapped in.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，而且还要回到其他引用，甚至引入神圣的芦苇，这也进入了植物的领域。

I think and and also, just to get back to the other citations too, and even bringing in the hallowed reed, it also goes into that space of plants.

对吧？

Right?

因为植物其实既不是在说话，也不是完全沉默，它们会发出沙沙声。

Because plants, like, they also are neither talking nor silent, really, because they rustle quite a bit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这让他从这种有生命的状态脱离出来，进入另一种空间，我认为他和她在一起时，身处陆地反而是一种解脱。

And it takes him away from this animate place into a a different sort of space, and I think he finds it a relief to be on land with her.

我认为他所提到的植物都是陆生植物。

And I think the plants that he evokes are all land plants.

他并没有提到海藻之类的东西。

He doesn't talk about seaweed or anything like that.

所以我认为，水的部分才是令人压力重重的。

And so I think the the watery part is the stressful part.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

在某个时刻，阿尔贝蒂娜几乎就像她本身蕴含着大海。

And at one point, says Albertine is basically like she contains the sea.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Right.

在她身后，尽管她像是某种屏幕，他仍能感知到巴尔贝克的大海。

That that behind her, like, though she's some sort of screen, he can perceive the sea of of Baalbek.

总的来说，《追忆似水年华》中这些与水相关的场景一直是一个令人愉悦的主导动机，比如第二卷中歌剧院里的游泳人物。

In general, these aquatic moments throughout the Recherche have been just a totally delightful leitmotif that have been coming up, like the swimming figures at the opera back in volume two.

嗯。

Mhmm.

总的来说，他常将社会描绘成一种水生环境，并似乎觉得这种隐喻对描述人际互动很有用。

Just in general, he often depicts society as an aquatic milieu, and he seems to find it a useful metaphor for interaction in a way.

是的。

Yeah.

还有那种半沉浸的状态，是的。

And for kind of the half immersion Yeah.

作为读者，你置身于一种全然流动的体验中，但偶尔也会出现一些时刻。

That you have as a reader where you're in where it's all about flow, but then there are these moments.

尤其是在第五卷中，你会被拉出这种状态，因为会出现一些元叙事的瞬间，叙述者会说：当然，因为

And increasingly in volume five where you get pulled out of it because there are these kind of meta moments where the narrator's like, oh, of course, because

我在写这个。

I'm writing this.

哦。

Oh.

太好了。

Great.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yes.

而且，我觉得这种半意识的状态，我想再深入谈谈这一点，因为在这个阅读过程中，越来越令人好奇的是，那么多看似关键的信息或经历，要么根本没在书中出现，要么要经过极大的延迟才被提及。

And also, I think that sort of half awareness, I I wanna follow that for just a second because I feel like one of the curious things is becoming, as it were, curiouser and curiouser in in this reading experience is how many of the vital, like, seemingly essential pieces of information or experiences are either not in the book or occur with a huge delay.

我在想，我们对阿尔贝蒂娜了解得多么少，她简直像个谜。

So I'm thinking about how little we know about Albertine, how she's a cipher.

我想起第三卷中祖母去世时，过了整整一千页，叙述者才终于开始思考她的死并直面它。

I'm thinking about how when the grandmother died in volume three, it took us a thousand pages to get to the narrator actually thinking about her death and facing it.

我想起这里，阿尔贝蒂娜被囚禁在他家里，而我们却完全不知道这究竟是怎么发生的。

I'm thinking about here how Albertine is trapped in his house, and we have no idea how that came to be.

比如，为什么没人阻止这种情况发生？

Like, why did anyone let this happen?

因为说真的，他们俩都是年轻人，身边有负责的成年人，似乎也依赖这些人提供大量建议和经济支持，可偏偏，他却把她囚禁了起来。

Because they are no, seriously, they are both young people who have sort of responsible adults around them who they seem to rely on for a lot of advice and and financial support, and yet somehow, he has imprisoned her.

而且这种情况发生在各卷之间的空白地带，我们被默认认为这些部分已经完成，却从未有机会接触到它们。

And and that occurs between the volumes in a sort of blank space that is just presumed completed without us ever getting to interact with it.

是的。

Yeah.

她完全被控制和监视，而他在多个时刻通过情感操控让她自己选择囚禁。

She is totally controlled and surveilled, and he kind of emotionally manipulates her into choosing her own captivity at various points.

因此，我认为她作为囚徒的程度本身也是不稳定的。

So that the extent to which she is a prisoner is also kind of unstable, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，没错，你说得对。

I think well, I think that's right.

我认为，关于什么是囚禁、谁是狱卒、谁是囚徒、谁在这里掌控一切，这些问题显然是这部小说的核心关注点。

And I think the question of of what it means to be imprisoned or, like, who who is the jailer and who's who is the jailed, who's in control here is something that is obviously a is a central preoccupation of Yeah.

这部小说。

This novel.

在书的结尾处，有一段精彩的文字，他谈到自己一直以为，当他继承遗产后，就会开始收藏艺术品，但接着他问：等等，为什么要收藏艺术品？

And at one point, there's this amazing passage towards the end of the book where he talks about how he had always thought that when he came into his inheritance, he would start collecting art, and says, but wait, why collect art?

我拥有最棒的艺术品。

I have the best art of all.

这是亚当的幸运。

It's Adam's in luck.

接着，有一段我们之前提到过的长篇论述，他以一种极其抽离的审美态度，将她的身体当作一件艺术品来分析。

And then there's this huge long passage that we've already referred to where he analyzes her body as though it were a work of art, in this very sort of detached mode of aesthetic appreciation.

但在这段长达数页的、美丽而疯狂的描述之后，他扭转了观点。

But then, after this pages long, beautiful, insane description of her, he reversed his course.

不，阿尔贝蒂娜对我来说根本不是一件艺术品，他改变想法的原因是，收藏就是占有，正如我所引用的：人们只爱那些追求不可及之物。

But no, Albertine was for me not at all a work of art, and the reason that he changes his mind is that collecting is possessing, and I quote, one only loves that in which one pursues the inaccessible.

人们只爱自己所没有的东西。

One only loves what one does not possess.

很快，我又开始意识到，我其实并不拥有阿博特森。

And very soon, I began to realize once more that I did not possess Abbottson.

是的

Yeah.

这都是关于斯万的，对吧？

And that's all in relation to Swan, isn't it?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yes.

因为斯万就像我们看到的那样，常常把女性当作艺术品来呈现。

Because Swan did he often, as we saw, rendered women into works of art.

是的。

Yeah.

他也是一个收藏家。

And he was also a collector.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我非常喜欢那段文字。

I absolutely loved that passage.

它非常宏大且颇具启发性。

It was so sweeping and kind of stimulating.

但这有点复杂，不是吗？

But it's kind of complicated, isn't it?

但他说的是，不要占有她，而她却是我的囚徒。

But he's saying, don't possess her, and yet she is my prisoner.

而我无法收集她，因为我没有像斯旺那样的审美鉴赏力或实践能力。

And I haven't been able to collect her because I am not the kind of I don't have the kind of aesthetic appreciation or practice that Swan did.

然后这让我开始思考，所有关于囚禁、占有和收藏的反思，其实也关乎写作，关乎以艺术或文字形式捕捉阿尔贝蒂娜。

And then it starts to make me think that all this reflection on captivity, on possession, on collection is then also about writing and about kind of capturing Albertine within his art or on the page in a

以另一种方式

in a different

某种方式。

kind of way.

他拒绝这样做。

That he refuses to do.

对吧？

Right?

阿尔贝蒂娜在书页上从未像查尔斯那样被充分捕捉到，而我们对查尔斯的性格却有相当深入的了解。

Albertine is never is never as captured on the page as, Charles, of whom we have really a quite in-depth idea of his character.

对吧？

Right?

阿尔贝蒂娜要模糊得多。

Albertine is much more elusive.

是的。

Yeah.

但这一点却如此迷人。

And yet that has been captivating.

对吧？

Right?

不仅对我们叙述者而言，对所有后来想象阿尔贝蒂娜、设想她视角的作家来说，我认为她都已成为一种象征性人物，代表了艺术是什么与不是什么。

Not only for us, the narrator, for us, for for all the writers subsequently who have imagined Albertine, imagined her perspective, have seen her as a kind of totemic figure of what art is and isn't, I think.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Right.

因此，阿尔贝蒂娜正因为未能被完全捕捉，反而反过来俘获了我们。

So Albertine, in fact, by being imperfectly captured, captures us in turn.

而且这似乎也发生在小说中这两个人物之间的动态关系中。

And it seems like that is also what happens in the dynamic between these two characters within the novel.

是的。

Yeah.

叙述者在多个地方自述为囚徒，似乎觉得自己因阿博特森的存在而受到极大束缚，尽管客观上她也被他囚禁着。

The narrator also just self describes as a prisoner at various points and seems to see himself as very constrained because of the presence of Abbottson, even though it is also sort of objectively true that she is imprisoned by him.

是的，没错。

There Yeah.

这并不仅仅是一个简单的施害者与受害者的关系。

It's not just a simple case of captor and captive.

在某些方面，他们彼此都用锁链束缚着对方。

They're both keeping each other in chains in certain ways.

是的。

Yeah.

而且从元层面来看，因为他正在试图描写她。

And again, in a meta way, because he's trying to write her.

比如，你喜欢小说结尾那些部分吗？她揭示了自己过去的一些行为，而他却说：天啊，我花了整整一千年写成的小说正在燃烧。

Like, did you like those bits at the end where she reveals some truths about her past behavior, and he's like, oh my god, a novel that I spent a thousand years writing is burning.

是的。

Yes.

我喜欢。

I did.

他的小说就是他的记忆。

His novel is his memory.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

他其实根本没在写。

He hasn't actually been writing.

那么我们知道，这部小说某种程度上也是我们正在读的这部小说，它真的是

Then we know that it's also somehow the novel that we're it's it's really a

太惊人了。

It's amazing.

一个极其复杂的情境。

Wonderfully complex situation.

是的。

Yeah.

然后还挺有趣的。

And then kind of funny.

对吧？

Right?

因为接着，你知道的，又有一点信息浮现出来，他说那部旧小说的最后部分已经化为灰烬了。

Because then, you know, another little crumb of information drops, and he's like, the final, like, parts of that old novel just turned to ashes.

或者当他希望可以远离她，去结识其他女孩的时候。

Or like when he or like when he he wishes he could just like get away from her and meet other girls.

他说，哦，我真的很渴望其他女性和其他未完成的小说。

He's like, oh, I just really long for other women and other sketched novels.

所以这也是阿尔贝蒂娜作为一幅草图的体现，一种……是的。

So then that's also Albertine's as a sketch as a kind of Yeah.

半成品的肖像。

Half finished portrait.

《普鲁斯特好奇》由公共书籍合作推出，这是一家在线思想、艺术与学术杂志。

Proust Curious is brought to you in partnership with Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

你可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。

You can find us at publicbooks.org.

就是 publicbooks.org。

That's publicbooks.org.

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To donate to Public Books, visit public books dot org slash donate.

你觉得只有这些角色在经历这种囚禁、占有与爱的动态吗，艾玛？

Are these the only characters, Emma, do you think that are dealing with this dynamic of imprisonment, possession, love?

当然不是。

Oh, absolutely not.

还有谁让你想到呢？

Who else comes to mind?

我的意思是，显然还有夏洛特和莫雷尔。

I mean, obviously, Charlotte and Morell.

对。

Yes.

莫雷尔真是个了不起的角色。

So Morell is kind of amazing character.

是的。

Yeah.

他确实是。

He is.

我们还没给他足够的篇幅，抱歉了，听众朋友们。

He is we haven't given him enough airtime, so sorry, listeners.

但他真的非常出色。

But he is he is incredible.

完全是个怪诞的角色。

Totally grotesque.

他是那个等等。

He is the wait.

他们之间的关系是什么？

What's their relationship?

他是叙述者家族已故仆人的侄子？

The nephew of a now dead servant of the narrator's family?

我认为他是叙述者叔叔的男仆的儿子。

I think he's the son of the narrator's uncle's valet.

哦，他是儿子。

Oh, he's the son.

所以他是叙述者家族前仆人的儿子。

So he's the son of a of a former servant in the narrator's family.

而现在他是一位成功的音乐家。

And now he is a successful musician.

他正试图隐藏自己非中产阶级的背景。

He is seeking to conceal his less bourgeois background.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这本书中间有一段精彩的文字，我们还没来得及详细讨论，讲的是他在维京群岛沙龙演奏凡特的音乐。

There's an amazing passage in the middle of the this volume that we haven't really got time to talk about in full, where he plays Vanther, his music at the Virgin Islands Salon.

他显然非常有才华。

And he's clearly very talented.

他被认为是一位冉冉升起的小提琴家。

He's considered to be kind of an up and coming violinist.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且他年轻英俊，我想书中某处描述他像是英俊、冷酷又愚蠢之类的样子。

And he, as a young, handsome I think he's described at one point as like, handsome, brutal, and stupid or something.

我不记得有这一段，但我相信你说的。

I don't remember that, but I believe you.

听起来很合理。

It sounds right.

差不多就是这样。

Something like that.

然后这就像一幅三联画。

And then this is like triptych.

这既令人震惊又特别搞笑。

This is like kind of devastating and hilarious.

所以，作为一个年轻、英俊、有才华的男子，他引起了

So as he's a young, handsome, talented man, and he catches the eye of

夏尔乌斯男爵的注意。

the Baron de Charleuse.

他是谁？

Who is?

夏尔乌斯，我们其实第一次是在第一卷中见到他的，当时他陪着奥泰莎。

Charleuse, we met for the first time, actually, in the first volume where he was keeping Ottessa company.

斯万允许这种情况发生，是因为夏尔乌斯无论是否愿意，都是一个公开的同性恋者，几乎所有与他接触的人都能意识到他是同性恋，尽管他确实试图掩饰，这一点我们稍后可能会再提到。

And the reason that Swan let that happen is that Chardous is, whether he likes it or not, an openly gay person who most people who cross his path realize that he is gay, even though he does make some attempts to conceal it that we may come back to.

他是一个年长、非常贵族化的人。

He is an older, very aristocratic person.

他是戈蒙公爵的弟弟，对自己的贵族血统极为自豪，但同时也对工人阶级和中产阶级的人充满吸引力。

He's the brother of the Duke de Gaumont and very proud of his noble lineage, but also very attracted to people of the working class and the bourgeois.

所以他似乎享受着对性伴侣的支配感。

So he seems to enjoy lording it over his sexual conquest.

所以我们上一期详细讨论过他，因为他在门房庭院里与裁缝朱潘的相遇。

So we we talked about him at length last episode because of his encounter with the tailor Jupien in the Mhmm.

那是叙述者所住房屋的庭院。

Courtyard of the home where the narrator is living.

在上一卷中，他在火车站遇到了莫雷尔，纯粹被他的俊美所震撼，现在他在经济上资助莫雷尔，但不是像叙述者供养阿尔贝蒂娜那样，而是帮莫雷尔支付账单。

And in the last volume, he picked up Morell at a train station, basically just sort of astonished by his good looks, and he is now keeping Morell in in the financial sense, not in the way that the narrator is keeping Albertine, but he's helping Morell to pay his bills.

他正试图为莫雷尔安排与朱潘的侄女结婚，以此作为掩护，让他能继续自己的行为。

He's trying to set Morell up with Jupien's niece so that they have a sort of respectable marriage that can be a cover for him to continue.

这似乎并非一段性关系，而更像是一种控制与迷恋的关系——不过这一点从未被明确说明。

What seems to be, but this is another thing that is never really made clear, it seems to not in fact be a sexual relationship, but rather just a relationship of control and infatuation.

是的。

Yeah.

我对这一点不太确定。

I wasn't sure about that.

有点像查理把自己打造成一个替代性的家长，在一个虽是选择但依然受到严格约束的家庭中。

Kind of like Charlie setting himself up as an alternative patriarch in a kind of chosen, but still very policed family.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这说得对。

I think that seems right.

而且我认为，作为交易的一部分，莫雷尔不得不忍受大量的关爱，但我并不确定这是否是性关系。

And I think morale as part of the deal has to put up with a lot of affection, but I'm not quite sure that it is sexual.

但事实上，我们无法确定这一点，正是这段关系引人入胜之处。

But actually, the fact that we can't be sure is is part of the intrigue of this Yeah.

关系。

Relationship.

所以查理对莫雷尔着迷。

So Charles is kind of captivated by Morell.

莫雷尔也被俘获了。

Morell is also kind of captured.

一直保持着。

Kept Yeah.

被俘获。

Captured.

某种程度上是查鲁斯的囚徒版本。

Kind of a a version of a prisoner of of Charlus.

而且我认为，自从上一卷以来，查鲁斯和莫雷尔就成了一对双重镜像。

And that is and I think that since the previous volume, Charlus and Morell have been a kind of double of Yes.

叙述者、叙述者和阿尔贝蒂娜。

The narrator the narrator and Albertine.

所以他们处于一种类似但不完全相同的囚禁关系中。

So they're in a kind of similar, but not identical relation of captivity.

对。

Right.

值得注意的是，一个巨大的区别是，查尔斯希望莫雷尔外出活动，并且自由自在。

Notably, a a huge difference is that Charles wants Morell to be out and about and to be Yeah.

因为他才华出众而变得知名，实际上还在试图为他牵线搭桥。

Becoming well known for his talents and actually is also attempting to set him up with Yeah.

和侄女。

With the niece.

和侄女，还有其他人，他几乎是在不断为道德提供牺牲品。

With the niece and and just with other he's almost attempting to supply morale with victims almost.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他对于莫雷尔曾表达过的那种强奸幻想感到兴奋不已。

And he's like thrilled by this rape fantasy that Morale expresses at one point Yeah.

那就是。

Which Yeah.

这并不令人愉快。

Is not delightful.

对。

Right.

所以他们是这一主题或双重性的一种有趣变体。

So they're this kind of interesting variation on the theme or a double.

但我认为他们的关系也是更广泛主题的一部分，即被困、监禁或某种意义上不为人知，我的意思是，我犹豫使用这个词，因为它不是普鲁斯特的原词，但类似于‘ closet ’（ closeted ）的概念。

But I think that their relationship is also part of a broader theme of being trapped or imprisoned or somehow not known, which is I mean, I hesitate to use this word because it's not Proust's word, but, like, the idea of the closet.

对吧？

Right?

所以，即使查尔斯几乎接近了，你仍然无法公开地、或以制度化的方式与同性欲望共存，这在某种程度上也是阿尔贝蒂娜的问题。

So the fact that even though Charlez comes pretty close, that you can't live openly or in a kind of institutionalized way with same sex desire, which is also Albertine's problem in some ways.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我认为这是你在这部作品中所看到的另一种形式的封闭。

I think that's another kind of form of closure that that that you have in this.

实际上，这曾被简要提及并分析过，例如由评论家伊芙·塞德维克在其著作《 closet 的认识论》中专门用一章讨论了普鲁斯特。

So there has been actually mid a briefly mentioned, analyzed, for example, by the critic, Eve Sedgwick, who writes the epistemology of the closet with a chapter on Proust.

我认为，秘密、揭露、谎言、隐藏和坦白等许多动态也可以通过这一视角来理解。

And I think a lot of the dynamics of, like, secrecy, revelation, lies, hiding, confession can be understood through that lens as well.

但塞德里克的论点之一是，性取向本身，而不仅仅是同性恋，都受到一种秘密与揭露模式的制约。

But I mean, part of Cedric's argument is that sexuality in general, not not just homosexuality, is conditioned by a kind of secrecy and revelation mode.

当叙述者描述查尔斯如何在某些时刻试图隐藏自己的真实生活时，这一点尤为明显，但这些时刻相比他持续暴露、以令人恼火的自满态度炫耀自己、因倾诉欲望强于对暴露的恐惧而不断泄露自我的漫长时光，显得微不足道。

And there's something very resonant of that in a moment when the narrator describes how Charlez had these moments retraction in which he sought to conceal his true life, but these lasted by a short time compared with the hours of continual progression in which he allowed it to betray itself, flaunted it with an irritating complacency, the need to confide being stronger in him than the fear of disclosure.

我认为，塞德里克真正感兴趣的是拉普莱西尼厄尔。

And I think it is La Plaisigneur that Cedric is really interested in.

但没错，那本书我读得更多是因为她写过拉辛，不过我后来回想起这一点。

But, yeah, that that that's a that's a book that I've read actually more because she writes about Racine, but I thought back to Yeah.

你的话题更贴近主题。

More on topic than you.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但当我读到这段文字、思考这个问题时，又想起了这一点，把它看作是人们被困住的另一种方式。

But I thought back to that when when when we're reading this and thinking about that as another kind of way of people being trapped.

是的。

Yeah.

某种程度上，叙述者是一种向内的封闭，就像他决定主要待在室内，过一种钟罩般的生活。

It like the narrator, in a way, it's a sort of inward turning that's being trapped, just like the narrator has decided that he will stay in mostly and have this bell jar life.

而看起来，查尔斯正挣扎于渴望过一种向外展开的生活，却被社会约束，不得不至少部分地隐藏自己。

And it seems there that Charles is grappling with the desire to live an outward turning life, but constrained by society to to to keep some parts of himself at least semi hidden.

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

但我觉得我们还需要从实际角度来思考这个问题。

But I think we also need to think about this in practical terms.

那么，谁被囚禁了？

So who is imprisoned?

谁不自由？

Who is not free?

那是经济上的囚禁。

That's financial imprisonment.

我需要把这一点说得非常明确。

I need to make that really explicit.

那么，阿尔贝蒂娜为什么在那里？

Like, why is Albertine there?

她被叙述者牵着走，叙述者说他可能会娶她，这会带来根本性的转变，对吧？

She's kind of being strung along by the narrator who's saying, oh, he might marry her, which would be transformative Right.

对她而言。

For her.

因为她不仅是中产阶级，而且只是勉强算得上， barely by the skin of her teeth，因为她是个孤儿，由一位经济并不宽裕的姨妈收养。

Because not only she she's bourgeois, but barely, by the skin of her teeth, because she's an orphan who's been taken in by her aunt who is not that well off, seemingly.

她似乎出入于上流社会，却没什么余钱。

She she seems to move in the right circles, but doesn't have money to spare.

因此，阿尔贝蒂娜如果能与这位富有的年轻男子缔结一门显赫的婚姻，将彻底改变她的一生。

And so for Albertine to make a brilliant marriage with this rich young man would change her entire life.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，阿尔贝松似乎对女性非常着迷，这简直是一笔魔鬼交易。

But at the same time, Abbedson seems to be very attracted to women, and so it it's it's a devil's bargain.

没错。

It's Yeah.

在某种程度上。

Some extent.

而且，说实话，叙述者的行为实在太恶劣了。

And also, I mean, the narrator's being totally horrible.

所以你觉得很糟糕。

So You think awful.

偶尔，他会说，哦，我有点内疚。

Occasionally, he's like, oh, I felt a bit bad.

但还不够，马塞尔。

But like, not enough, Marcel.

还不够。

Not enough.

他是给她买衣服，对吧？

Like, he's keeping her in dresses, isn't she?

他过得不错。

He is well.

没错。

Right.

因为有一刻，他说他真的很担心她会离开我，但后来他想起我们约好要去试穿衣服。

Because at one point, he's like, I was really worried that she might leave me, but then I remembered that we were due to do the do a kind of try out trying on dresses.

我们八天后要去Thought You Need试穿衣服。

We're due to try on dresses at Thought You Need in eight days.

Thought You Need是一家时装店。

Thought You Need being this fashion house.

我知道她会等那一天的。

I know she'll wait for that.

是的。

Yeah.

天啊。

God.

但他还把她比作一只被驯服的野兽，一朵玫瑰丛，而我则是支撑它的支架、框架和藤架。

But he he also he he talks of her as a wild beast tamed a rose bush to which I had acted as the prop, the framework, the trellis of its life.

我觉得这个引述非常有趣，因为我们看到他意识到自己压抑了她，但同时也把玫瑰丛和它的藤架比作了一种生命体，至少能开花，甚至可能带来美。

And I think this citation is fascinating because we see that he realizes that he has curbed her, but also a rose bush and its trellis, one of those things is living and producing at least flowers and potentially beauty.

而藤架被这朵玫瑰丛包围，某种程度上被它窒息，它引导着玫瑰，但它本身却是无生命、静止的。

While the trellis is surrounded by this rose bush, sort of suffocated by it in a way, it guides it, but it is lifeless and inert.

是的。

Yeah.

这太真实了。

That's so true.

从某种意义上说，将她称为被驯服的野兽或攀附在支架上的玫瑰时，语气中带着一丝自豪与哀叹。

In a sense, the there is a little bit of a tone of pride slash lamentation in talking of her as a tamed beast or a trellised rose.

这也再次体现出一种矛盾心理，即究竟谁才是被囚禁的那一个。

There's also a sense in which it shows again that ambivalence about who exactly is imprisoned.

是的。

Yeah.

她是一位艺术家，对吧？

And she is an artist, isn't she?

没错。

Yes.

她确实是一位。

She's Yeah.

她是一位画家，就像莫雷尔是一位音乐家一样。

She's a she's a painter, just like Morell is a is a musician.

所以他们实际上都在从事艺术创作。

So they're actually doing the art.

对。

Right.

他们在做这件事。

They're doing the thing.

对吧？

Right?

叙述者却无法真正去做。

The the the narrator can't quite bring himself to do.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他只关注她。

Because he's just focused on her.

你不觉得吗？在某些时候，我曾想过，他干脆去找份工作好了。

Do you not think at some like, variously, I thought at some point, like, he should just get a job.

但你知道，我并不反对，但与此同时，那对他来说甚至可能是个选项吗？

But, you know, I I don't disagree, but at the same time, was that even on the table for him?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I'm saying?

就像，它本身就很丰富。

Like, it's It's it's independently rich.

但另一方面，我想到了真正的普鲁斯特，我知道叙述者并不是作者。

But then again, I think about the real Proust, which I know the narrator is not the author.

我完全明白这一点。

I I understand that fully.

然而，与此同时，他的家庭是一个富裕的中产阶级家庭，他的兄弟确实成为了一名医生。

However, at the same time, his family was a well off bourgeois family, and his brother did become a doctor.

对于一个富裕的中产阶级男子来说，从事某种职业并不是不可能的。

It's not impossible that someone would take up a profession as a wealthy bourgeois man.

是的。

Yeah.

你说他应该找份工作，但我觉得，就像《我的休息与放松之年》里的那个女人无法保住工作一样，我根本不确定他能胜任任何工作。

You're saying he should get a job, but I feel like just as the woman in My Year of Rest and Relaxation couldn't hold down a job, like, I'm not at all sure he could hold down a job.

不。

No.

你完全对。

You're absolutely right.

你完全对。

You're absolutely right.

他病了。

He's sick.

他也很虚弱。

He's very sickly as well.

是的。

Yeah.

他身体虚弱。

He is sickly.

你知道吗，艾玛，在我们结束关于囚禁以及他们之间动态关系的讨论之前，我们必须谈谈阿比让作为时间女神。

You know, Emma, before before we finish talking about this question of captivity and the dynamic between them, I we have to talk about Abidjan as a goddess of time.

哦，必须的。

Oh, have to.

我对此着迷了。

I'm obsessed with this.

所以我们必须

So we have to we

必须突出这一点。

have to highlight this.

绝对的亮点。

An absolute highlight.

亮点。

Highlight.

然后，也许之后我们会转到赢家和输家的话题。

And then and then perhaps we'll move on to to winners and losers after that.

我会先设定场景，然后读这段引文。

I'll set the scene and read this citation.

也许你可以先谈谈，这到底意味着什么，或者对这个项目意味着什么。

Maybe you can get us started on what on earth this could possibly mean or or what it means for the project.

所以书的结尾处，叙述者说他可以将阿尔贝蒂娜抱在膝上，抚摸她，但‘我感觉我触摸的不过是一封密封的信，其内在却通向无限，她不是像瓶中精灵那样奇妙的囚徒，而更像是以残酷而徒劳的执着，催促我追寻过去，如果非要说像什么，她更像一位强大的时间女神。’

So the narrator towards the end of the book says that he can he can hold Albertine on his knees and and caress her, but, quote, I felt that I was touching no more than the sealed envelope of a person who inwardly reached to infinity, and that she's not a marvelous captive like a genie in a bottle, but rather, quote, urging me with cruel and fruitless insistence in quest of the past, she resembled, if anything, a mighty goddess of time.

我的意思是，这太引人入胜了，同时也太过夸张。

I mean, this is so compelling, and also so hyperbolic.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's true.

我觉得真的太过矫揉造作了。

I think I think there's so overwrought, really.

确实如此。

It is.

我的意思是，确实如此。

I mean, it is.

这部小说太过夸张了，确实如此。

There's something so overwrought about this novel Yeah.

就是这样。

Period.

是的。

Yeah.

但不知为何，这并不减损它的魅力。

But somehow that doesn't that dispel its charm.

在我们深入讨论之前，我想这是我最后一次提到《我的休息与现实之年》，那也是一部幽默且相当夸张的作品。

And before we, like, get really get into it, think I this is the final reference I'm gonna make to My Year of Rest and Realization, which is that that is also a comic a comic and kind of hyperbolic text.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

还有一本关于睡眠、财富和戒断的小说。

As well as one about kind of sleep and wealth and Withdrawal.

戒断。

Withdrawal.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以，是的，阿尔贝蒂娜是时间的女神，她的身体是一封密封的信封，其内部延伸至无限，而这种无限正是过去。

So, yeah, Albertine is the goddess of time whose body is a sealed envelope that inwardly reaches to infinity, but that infinity is the past.

这激发了他对这段旅程的追寻。

And so this sparks for him his quest.

对吧？

Right?

去

To

是的。

Yeah.

去寻找逝去的时光。

To go in search of lost time.

对。

Yeah.

去捕捉过去。

To capture the past.

所以她是他的灵感来源。

So she is his inspiration.

但为什么偏偏是她成为他的灵感呢？

But why is she in particular his inspiration?

是因为他试图弄清楚那本被烧毁的小说中，她去过哪里、和谁在一起，以及那种生活代表了什么吗？

Is it because he's trying to is it to do with that novel that gets burned, where he's trying to figure out where she's been and with whom and what that life represents.

他试图理解她的过往行踪，几乎是以最基础、最不哲学的方式，而这种嫉妒的冲动最终演变为对过去的痴迷。

He's trying to understand her past movements, almost in like the most basic, least philosophical way, and that that jealous impulse ends up turning into an obsession with the past.

对。

Yeah.

而且我想，她希望了解她的生活究竟是怎样的。

And I guess it's also that she he wants to know what her life is.

他多次提到这一点，比如：她的生活究竟是什么？

He refers to that on multiple occasions, like, what is her life?

我认为那些奇怪而纯粹的呼吸场景也是其中的一部分。

I think that the weird pure breath scenes are part of that as well.

比如，她的生活究竟是什么？

Like, what what is her life?

那么，生活是什么？

What is therefore life?

生活是一种由过去场景和情感构成的序列。

Life being a kind of sequence of past scenes and sentiments.

但同时，它也是完全封闭、与他人隔绝的，我们所能接触到的他人，都只是那封密封的信封。

But also, it's something that's completely sealed off from everyone else, that all we can access of anyone else is the sealed envelope.

而信封里面，是无限的内涵——我同意你的观点，这是过去，但不仅仅是过去，更是人的本质。

And then inside, there's the infinity, which I agree with you is the past, but it's not only the past, it's just it's the personhood.

这是

It's it's the

就是主体性。

the being Like subjectivity.

主体性就是他人在时间中的存在，像阿尔贝蒂娜一样难以捉摸。

Subjectivity is the being in time of someone else, which is elusive, just like Albertine.

天啊，是的。

Oh my Yes.

是的，艾玛。

Yes, Emma.

这是

This is

太棒了。

so cool.

不是我刚才说的，只是这段文字。

Not what I was saying, but just the text.

这段文字简直太惊人了，因为我觉得，你随便挑出一句话，停下来深入思考其中所描绘的类比和建立的联系，就会突然意识到这部小说中的所有事物都如此复杂，它也像一面镜子，复杂且映射着其他东西。

The text is like, he really is it's really just incredible because I feel like you could take any random sentence, and you stop to really think deeply about the parallels that are being drawn, the connections that are being made, all of a sudden, realize that everything is so complex in this novel, and it's also really a hall of mirrors, like, complex and reflective of something else

不断地。

constantly.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且，很多时候还非常独特，比如关于他的钱包，同时又相当具体。

And then also, like, often so idiosyncratic, like, is about his purse, and and also quite, like, concrete at the same time.

那么，什么是意象？

So what is image?

嗯。

Mhmm.

他在嗯。

He's Mhmm.

把手放在她的膝盖上。

Put his hand on her knee.

他在抚摸她，但这种触碰触及了一个人封闭的信封。

He's caressing her, but that touch reaches a sealed envelope of a person.

嗯。

Mhmm.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这种行为是在抗拒这样一种观念：你以任何方式都能真正建立联系

So this kind of resisting this idea that in any way you can actually connect

是的。

Yeah.

无论是概念上还是身体上。

Either kind of conceptually or physically.

对。

Right.

因为一个密封的信封象征着缺乏沟通。

Because a sealed envelope is sort of a symbol of noncommunication.

对吧？

Right?

哦，最后她给他留了一封信。

Oh, and then she leaves him a letter at the end.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

没错。

That's right.

但我们还没读到那封信，因为它还没揭晓。

Which we haven't gotten to read yet because it it's dangling.

它还悬而未决。

It's dangling.

所以故事结尾留下了一个密封的信封。

So we're left with a sealed envelope at the end of the volume.

艾玛。

Emma.

不可思议。

Incredible.

它

It

是时候揭晓、颁发并淘汰《拉普里西耶尔》的胜者与败者了。

is time to reveal, to award, and deny our winners and losers of La Prisoniere.

这次我觉得很难抉择，汉娜。

I found this tough this time, Hannah.

你觉得怎么样？

How did you find it?

我的意思是，像往常一样，我认为关键在于，我们已经明白，这部小说没有真正的胜者。

I mean, as usual, I think the thing is, I think that we've learned is that this novel has no winners.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者胜者是带有讽刺意味的、含蓄的，或者稍微有点不在聚光灯下。

Or that the winners are tongue in cheek or oblique or, like, a little bit not center stage perhaps.

但你愿意告诉我你的胜者吗？

But do you wanna tell me your winner?

如果你想要告诉我的话

If you have want you to tell

告诉我你的胜者，因为我会根据你的选择来决定我的。

me your winner because I'm gonna decide mine based on yours.

抱歉这样对你，还以一种类似阿尔贝蒂娜的方式隐瞒了一些信息。

I'm sorry to do that to you, and to, like, also to withhold some information in an Albertine esque way.

好的。

Okay.

我认为我会选择三个选项中最认真的那个。

I think that I'm going to do my most serious of the three options.

好的。

Okay.

也许我会告诉你我的亚军，但不为它们辩护，以防万一。

Maybe I'll I'll I'll tell you my runners up without defending them, just in case.

我的亚军，也许其中一个也是你的，你会为它们辩护，嗯。

So my runners up, and maybe one of them is yours and you'll defend them Mhmm.

是时尚巨头福尔图娜，

Is the fashion house fortune,

绝佳的选择。

Great choice.

在这本书中表现得非常出色。

Comes out really ahead in this book.

那位司机总是随心所欲地做任何事。

The chauffeur who seems to do whatever the f he wants at all times.

但我要给出我真正的赢家，这与第一集形成了惊人的反转，哦，太棒了。

But I'll give my my my real my real winner is in a stunning reversal from episode one, Oh, amazing.

他是斯万和奥泰莎都钟爱的奏鸣曲的作曲家，在这一卷中有一个盛大的沙龙场景，他们聚集在一起聆听这场音乐演出。

He's the composer of the sonata that Swan and Ottessa had loved, and there's a big salon scene in this volume where what they have done is gather to listen to the music event.

我说他是赢家，因为他的女儿的伴侣——那位公然的女同性恋伴侣——在他去世后整理了他的作品和笔记，将他的所有音乐都抄录了下来，现在这些作品正成为街谈巷议，也让人们有了更多素材去了解他，而不仅仅局限于那首奏鸣曲，使他一举成为经典。

I say he's the winner because his daughter's partner, her scandalously lesbian partner, has gone through his works, his notebooks posthumously, and transcribed all his music, which is now becoming the talk of the town, and has kind of made him an instant classic now that they have more of his work to go on besides just the Sonata.

因此，他获得了死后的平反，就冲这一点，他就是我的赢家。

So he's kind of had his posthumous revindication, and for that, he is my winner.

理由非常充分，我同意。

Case very well made, and I agree.

我确实短暂地考虑过他，但我更喜欢司机和福图尼赢得了一模一样的狗。

I did I did briefly consider him, but I like the chauffeur and fortuney getting a matching poo.

好了，这些都是我开玩笑的回答。

Well, those are my tongue in cheek answers.

这次我试着认真一点，因为我觉得我连续给了好几个玩笑式的答案。

I was trying to a little bit better this time, because I feel like I've given a few tongue in cheek answers in a row.

好的。

Okay.

那我先说说我的玩笑式赢家答案。

So I will say my tongue in cheek answer first for my winner.

所以我的调侃赢家是莫雷尔的发网。

So my tongue in cheek winner is Morel's mesh.

莫雷尔的莫雷尔的

Morel's Morel's

发网。

Mesh.

一缕头发。

Lock of hair.

我刚才用英语思考，心想：什么发网？

I I was thinking in English, and I was like, what mesh?

但不是那个意思。

But no.

在法语中，'mesh'指的是的一缕头发。

The mesh in French, which is a lock of hair.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

头发。

Of hair.

这确实是真的。

It is a real.

就像一缕性感的头发，垂落在他拉小提琴时的前额上。

It's like this sexy lock that falls over his forehead while he's playing his violin.

太不可思议了。

Incredible.

沙玛。

Shama.

他完全被它迷住了。

He's absolutely ravished by it.

是的。

Yes.

是的

Yeah.

他一直不停地提起它。

He he keeps talking about it.

你看到那层网状物了吗？

Did you see the mesh?

是的

Yeah.

这就是为什么莫雷尔能成为古典音乐界曾经拥有的那种摇滚明星。

And it's like, that's why Morell is like, the rock star that classical music used to be able to have.

确实如此。

Indeed.

但我的最严肃的赢家，尽管有些遗憾，是夫人。

But my most serious winner, with regret, is madame.

只是因为我自以为知道。

Just because I think I know.

她太糟糕了。

She's awful.

但我觉得我们需要谈谈她对查尔斯蓄意报复的行为。

But I think we need to talk about her act of willful vengeance against Charles.

是的。

Yeah.

她认为查尔斯对她极其无礼，而她确实如此。

She decides that Charles has been unspeakably rude to her, which she has.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但她决定将他从自己的小圈子中排斥出去，当然，

But she decides to alienate him from her little group, but of course,

并不完全如此。

not entirely.

基本上甩了他，伤了他的心。

To basically dump him and break his little heart.

对。

Right.

这当然让他病得很重，而当他重新出现时，他已经放下了。

Which of course makes him very ill, and he when when he reemerges, he's kind of over it.

是的。

Yeah.

但没错。

But yeah.

我认为因为她备受挫折，感到极度羞辱，他却在她家举办了派对，所有这些高贵的女士们都狠狠地冷落她。

I think because she's so thwarted, she's so humiliated, he's organized this party at her house, and all these noble ladies are just snubbing her like crazy.

一页又一页，都是像‘维尔吉兰夫人被忽视了’这样的描述。

And page after page, it's like, madame Virgiland was ignored.

维尔吉兰夫人被忽视了。

Madame Virgiland was ignored.

然后她策划了这一幕，出自她所谓的社交嫉妒，正如普鲁斯特所称。

And then she orchestrates this scene out of her, like, what Proust calls her social jealousy.

她也可以称之为自恋，她只想成为一切的中心，不希望参加她沙龙的任何人彼此之间的联系超过与她的联系。

And and she could also call narcissism, where she just wants to be the center of everything, and she doesn't want any of the people who attend her salon to be more in relation with each other than with her.

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是她精心安排了莫雷尔和查尔斯之间的这场决裂。

So she, like, enacts this set piece break between Morell and Charles Mhmm.

这一切都是围绕一个谎言展开的。

Organized around a lie.

而且完全成功了。

And it absolutely comes off.

她演绎得完美无缺。

She plays it perfectly.

这非常残忍，但最终她在这场查尔斯根本没意识到自己正在参与的战斗中赢了。

It's very horrible, but she does win ultimately in the battle that Charlies doesn't really know he's in.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It's true.

好的。

Okay.

她是个赢家。

She's a winner.

她赢得了这场战斗。

She won the battle.

对。

Yeah.

但很可怕。

But horribly.

确实很糟糕。

Horribly so.

糟糕透了。

Horribly.

我更喜欢莫雷尔的头发，胜过击败赢家。

Kind of I prefer I prefer, like, Morel's hair to beat the winner.

莫雷尔的头发更少。

Morel's hair is less

是的。

Yeah.

让我们所有人都少些矛盾。

Causes less ambivalence in us all.

是的。

Yeah.

但我更喜欢你的赢家。

But I like your winners better.

哦，我不确定。

Oh, I don't know.

你提出了一个很好的论点。

You made a good case.

我要不要说说我的输家是谁？

Shall I say who my losers my loser was?

好。

Yes.

对我来说，这一卷的输家是弗朗索瓦丝。

So for me, the loser of this volume is Francoise.

她是一位年事已高的家庭仆人，你认为允许她这样做简直疯狂。

She is the now very elderly family servant who you're saying that it's kind of insane that they are allowed to do this.

他们可以未婚生活，花光叙述者的所有钱，继续这样下去。

They're allowed to live unmarried and just spend all the spend all the narrator's money and just keep going.

是谁在纵容这一切？

Who is facilitating that?