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大家好，欢迎收听《普鲁斯特好奇》，这是与《公共书籍》合作的播客。
Hello, and welcome to Proust Curious, a podcast in partnership with Public Books.
我是Emma Claussen，剑桥大学三一学院的早期现代文学研究者。
I'm Emma Claussen, an early modernist at Trinity College Cambridge.
我是Hannah Weaver，哥伦比亚大学中世纪文学助理教授，同时也是思想与想象力研究所的研究员。
And I'm Hannah Weaver, an assistant professor of medieval literature at Columbia University and fellow at the Institute for Ideas and Imagination.
《普鲁斯特好奇》是一档关于阅读七卷本《追忆似水年华》的播客。
Proust Curious is a podcast about the experience of reading All seven volumes.
这部作品创作于1906年至1922年间，出版于1913至1927年间，马塞尔·普鲁斯特的这部文化巨著长久以来令人着迷，也让人望而生畏。
Written between nineteen o six and 1922, published between '13 1927, Marcel Proust's cultural touchstone is an object of enduring fascination and, let's face it, intimidation.
我们并不是普鲁斯特专家，但我们以研究文学为生，因此既感到自己能力不足，又觉得自己足以应对这一挑战。
We're not Proust experts, but we do study literature for a living, so we feel both under and overqualified to tackle this.
请和我们一起寻找逝去的时光，重温普鲁斯特笔下的记忆。
Join us as we search for lost time and remember things Proust.
今天，我们要讨论的是《追忆似水年华》倒数第二卷《阿尔贝蒂娜失踪》（又名《失踪的爱人》）。
Today, we're talking about the penultimate volume of the Recherche, Albertine disparue, or The Fugitive.
正如你所记得的，在上一卷的结尾，阿尔贝蒂娜从叙述者的囚禁中逃走了。
As you'll recall, at the end of the last volume, Albertine had escaped from the narrator's prison.
本卷以他疯狂但极力掩饰的寻找她的行动开篇，以及他试图将她诱回的努力。
This volume opens with his frantic, if badly dissimulated, search for her, and his attempts to lure her back.
这些努力注定失败，因为阿尔贝蒂娜在离开他家仅数日后便因骑马事故去世。
Attempts which are doomed to fail, as Albertine dies in a riding accident only days after leaving his house.
数页内容都在沉思遗忘、习惯、爱、嫉妒与死亡的本质，同时伴随着对阿尔贝蒂娜生前可能与其他女性有染的执念调查。
Pages and pages pass in meditation on the nature of forgetting, habit, love, jealousy, and death, accompanied by obsessive investigations into Albertine's possible trysts with other women before she died.
随着记忆逐渐消退，叙述者通过那些让他想起阿尔贝蒂娜的女性重新进入世界，最终成为了一名出版作家。
As his memories fade, the narrator reenters the world through women that remind him of Albertine, and finally becomes a published author.
他与母亲前往威尼斯研究罗斯金，在返回巴黎的火车上，他们得知社会秩序因两桩震惊的婚姻而颠覆：他的朋友罗贝尔·德·圣卢与吉尔贝特·索瓦纳的结合，以及一位贵族与裁缝侄女的联姻。
He travels to Venice with his mother to work on Ruskin, and on the train back to Paris, they receive word that the social order has been turned on its head by two shocking marriages, that of his friend, Robert de Saint Louis with Gilbert Soine, and that of an aristocrat with a tailor's niece.
更简单地说，本卷中，阿尔贝蒂娜离开了，然后被遗忘了。
Put more simply, in this volume, Albertine is gone and then forgotten.
在我们更详细地讨论本卷之前，是时候回答著名的普鲁斯特问卷了——这个问卷由普鲁斯特在13岁和20岁时两次作答，后被《名利场》用作访谈工具。
Before we talk in more detail about this volume, it's time for a question from the famous Proust questionnaire, answered by Proust twice at ages 13 and 20 and used as an interview device by Vanity Fair.
我们会在节目笔记中提供问卷的链接。
We'll put a link to the questionnaire in the show notes.
但本周的问题是：你最喜欢的职业是什么？
But this week's question is, what is your favorite occupation?
而且
And
普鲁斯特回答说：去爱，艾玛。
Proust answered, to love, Emma.
把爱当作一种职业是件大事。
Loving as an occupation is a lot.
他指的是‘心心念念’吗？
Did he mean, like, preoccupation?
但艾玛，我刚才说我们也应该用动词不定式来回答，所以我想知道你是接过了接力棒，还是打算用别的答案？
But Emma, I was saying that we should also answer with infinitive verbs, so I wondered if you took up the baton or if you were going to answer differently.
我在这个问题上很纠结，因为我实在很难给出一个明确的答案，而且也不想选一个听起来特别平庸、或者只是我填在约会资料里的那种答案。
I struggled with this question because I just find it really hard to come up with one answer, and also to come up with an answer that wasn't like really banal or just like what I would fill in on a dating profile.
我喜欢自己在海滩上的样子。
Like, I like my own looks on the beach.
这大概确实是我喜欢的。
Which which I guess I do.
不过，对不起，其实。
Although, I actually sorry.
我确实考虑过把长时间散步作为答案。
I actually did consider long walks as a long answer.
不是特指在海滩上，但我还有一个更不酷的答案。
Not specifically on the beach, but I've got an even more uncool answer than that.
好吧。
Okay.
你想听听吗？
Do you wanna hear it?
好吧。
Okay.
我本来想用动词来回答，但并不完全合适。
I tried to go with the verb, but it's not totally.
但说真的，我最喜欢的活动就是和我喜欢的人一起动起来。
But like, my favorite occupation is to hang out with people I like, but in motion.
对吧？
Right?
艾玛，你刚刚描述的
Emma, you just described
正是我们友谊的起源故事。
the origin story of our friendship.
我有点
I'm kind
感动了。
of touched.
你知道的，这可能是跑步，可能是跳舞，也可能是散步。
Well, you know, it could be running, it could be dancing, it could be walking, you know.
是的。
Yeah.
某种形式的边走边逛是我最喜欢的活动，我觉得。
Some kind of hanging out in motion is is my favorite occupation, I think.
边走边逛。
Hanging out in motion.
我太喜欢这个说法了。
I love this.
我觉得我们所有的喜好都一样，所以之后很难再觉得自己有原创性了，因为我的答案本来也只是散步，但我觉得你这个说法更好。
I think we have all the same favorite things, so it's hard to feel original after that, because my answer was going to just be to walk, but it's I think it's better.
我觉得你说得对，我最最喜欢的其实就是和朋友一起散步。
I think it's you're right that, like, my very favorite is to walk with a friend.
这比一个人散步还要好。
That's even better than walking alone.
我也喜欢一个人散步，就像那只独来独往的猫之类的。
I do like to walk alone, like, the cat that walks by itself or whatever.
但我觉得，哦，天哪。
But I think Oh, no.
天啊。
Gosh.
真尴尬。
Cringe.
真尴尬。
Cringe.
其他选项比如看书。
Other candidates were, like, to read.
我真是太可预测了。
I'm so predictable.
说到底，我就是你想象中的那种人。
I'm exactly who you think I am at the end of the day.
最糟糕、最让人反感的回答会是什么？
What would be the worst possible answer to like, the most off putting answer?
对我来说，有人可能会真诚地说出这句话。
For me, that someone might sincerely say.
所以显然，不是像杀人之类的。
So obviously, not like to murder or whatever.
我一直在想这件事。
I was thinking about it.
我当时在想，如果有人说，我最喜欢的职业是争论，确实有些人特别喜欢辩论之类的。
I was like, if someone was like, my favorite occupation is to argue, which some people do really love debates or whatever.
对我来说，我会说，好吧。
For me, I'd be like, okay.
我们不会成为朋友的。
We are not going to be friends.
这让人反感。
That's a turn off.
好吧。
Okay.
对我来说，真正的雷点是，这听起来完全像个疯子。
Bear with The real turn off to me would be and this is completely sound like a psycho.
如果有人说他们最喜欢的职业是帮助别人。
If someone said their favorite occupation was helping others
天啊，艾玛。
Oh my god, Emma.
你听起来真的像个疯子。
You do sound like a psycho.
我会觉得挺有趣的。
I'd be like fun.
绝对不考虑。
Hard pass.
是的。
Yeah.
因为我就是不信任那些主动标榜自己有这种品质的人。
Because I just don't trust people who, like, who advertise that quality in themselves.
是的。
Yeah.
像这样宣扬自己无私，确实有点奇怪。
It is odd to, like, trumpet being selfless.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，就像我是那种特别愿意付出的人。
You know, like, I'm just such a giver.
我就是不担心。
I'm just just don't worry.
我喜欢给予。
I love to give.
不用谢。
You know, no thanks.
太不可思议了。
Incredible.
把它给其他人吧。
Give it to someone else.
那就留着吧。
So keep it.
留着吧。
Keep it.
我认为普鲁斯特对爱情的看法也完全疯狂，毕竟他写下了我所见过的最悲观的爱情观点之一。
I do think that Proust's answer to love is totally insane also, considering that he has written one of the most pessimistic takes on love I've ever encountered.
不过公平地说，他回答这个问题时才20岁。
Well, to be fair, he did answer this answer when he was 20.
也许那时他还没经历过足够多的人生，还没变得如此悲观。
So perhaps he just hadn't lived enough life to become such a love pessimist yet.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
也许吧。
Perhaps.
你是怎么找到这卷书的？
How did you find this volume?
你注意到了什么？
What did you notice?
我爱这卷书。
I love this volume.
我的意思是，我好像爱过所有这些，但我真的特别喜欢这一本。
Mean, I seem to have loved all of them, but I I really liked this.
再说一遍，我本来没太期待，因为有些人告诉我它有点忧郁，但我发现它非凡且非常感人。
Again, I wasn't totally expecting to because some people had told me that it was a bit doleful, but I found it extraordinary and really, really moving.
我要说一下，我这本英文平装本的背面有个小评论，说人们喜欢它是因为它始终真实。
I will say that the little comment on the back of my paperback in English that says, like, people love this because it's ceaselessly truthful.
我有点想问：真的吗？
I'm a bit like, really?
这一切都在讲述真理如何难以寻觅，书中还包含了一些非常奇怪且不可思议的行为。
This this is all about how truth is impossible to find and there's some deeply weird and unlikely behavior in it.
我不确定我读的时候是不是在想：‘是的，没错。’
I don't know if I'm not reading this thinking, oh, yes.
这就是生活的真相。
This is the truth of life.
然而，在阿尔贝蒂娜去世后，他反思悲伤、记忆与震惊的那段文字中，我确实感受到了一种深刻的存在之真，那既美丽又充满诗意。
And yet, in that bit after Albertine dies and he's reflecting on grief and memory and shock, I did feel that some kind of really intense truth of existence was contained in that, and it was so beautiful and so lyrical.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我也非常喜爱它。
I also really loved it.
但我想强调的一点，也是我们在深入讨论之前想提到的，就是这一卷中他真正成为了作家。
But what I noticed most that I wanted to mention before we get really get into it is that this is the volume where he actually becomes a writer.
我知道你在引言里提到过这一点。
I know you mentioned that in the introduction.
他真的发表了一篇文章。
He actually gets a publication.
他发表了一篇报道。
He he gets a an article.
是的。
Yeah.
这篇报道刊登在一家如今相当保守的法国知名报纸上，对吧。
In which is one of the best known, I think, now quite a bit conservative of the French newspapers, Right.
我们读不到这篇文章，叙述者也没有告诉我们它讲了什么，这本该很重要，但其实并没有。
So we don't get to read this article, and the narrator doesn't tell us what it's about, which one would think would be significant, but no.
我们得知文章提到了一些内容，可以推测它很可能与艺术有关，因为他后来还研究过十九世纪的艺术评论家罗斯金。
We do find out that it mentions, we can imagine that it's probably about art since he also works on Ruskin, the nineteenth century art critic later on.
没错。
Yep.
但，没错，这终于发生了。
But, yeah, it's it's finally happened.
在我们之前的节目中，我们说，你知道，他还没开始写作。
In our earlier episodes, we're saying, you know, he's not writing yet.
他太忙于闲逛了。
He's too busy hanging out.
他太忙于享乐了。
He's too busy having fun.
他太忙于自我沉思了。
He's too busy, like, navel gazing.
不过，公平地说，他似乎写了这篇文章并寄了出去，但可能过了好几年才发表。
Although, to be fair, it seems like he wrote this article, sent it out, and it took years for it to appear, maybe.
确实如此。
That's true.
他只是焦虑地等待文章发表，期间似乎没有写任何其他东西。
And he just sort of anxiously waited for it to appear and doesn't seem to have written anything in the meanwhile.
但我想，这么说可能有点苛刻，而且也无关紧要。
But I mean, this is probably ungenerous and also doesn't matter.
但真的很有趣，就这一篇文章，他就觉得一切都结束了。
But like, it is funny that just this one piece, and he's like, that's it.
是的。
Yeah.
每个人都在看这篇文章。
Everyone is seeing this.
我现在是个作家了。
I'm a writer now.
对。
Yeah.
他可能在想象，每个人早上躺在床上收到报纸的样子。
He's imagining everyone getting their newspaper delivered to them in in the morning in bed, I think.
所以，当他幻想拥有读者会是什么感觉时，那段描写特别迷人又幽默，尤其是之后还出现了德·加尔蒙公爵和布洛克的反应。
And so that passage where he's like imagining fantasizing about what it would be like to have readers is really delightful and funny, especially since afterwards, you get the reactions of the Duke de Garmont and of Bloch.
德·加尔蒙公爵说：干得漂亮。
And the Duke de Garmont is like, oh, well done.
这有点老套，但很酷。
It's a bit cliched, but cool.
而布洛克根本没理会他。
And Bloch doesn't even acknowledge it.
是的。
Yeah.
布洛克一直不理他，直到后来才说了一句难以捉摸的话。
Bloch blanks him until later when he makes a sort of inscrutable comment.
难道不是他也曾在《流亡者》上发表过一篇文章吗？
Isn't it that he also gets an article in The Fugitive?
然后他才能
Then he's able to
承认我知道你那次也有一篇。
acknowledge I know that you also had that one that one time.
所以这确实是个是的。
So it's it's a yeah.
这对我们的叙述者来说是个特别的日子，这段文字相当有趣。
It's a kind of red letter day for for our narrator that is quite a a fun a fun bit of the text.
而且这里还有一个非常精彩的形象，描绘了作家与读者之间的关系：他通常以古怪的方式试图想象，如果不是自己，而是作为读者来阅读这部作品，会是什么感觉，以及同时身为读者和作家意味着什么。
And there's also this really, really amazing image of the relationship between the write writers and readers because he has this typically wacky attempt to imagine what it's like to not be him, to be reading it, and to think about what it is to be a reader and a writer at the same time.
算是一半成功吧。
Sort of semi successful.
但最终，怀着宽厚的心态，他在关于作品最终被公众阅读的小小幻想中说，美在于读者留下的印象。
But ultimately, generously, in his little fantasy about what it is to finally be read by a public, he says, the beauty lies in the impression of the readers.
如果我们只局限于作者的视角，那么我们所拥有的只是维纳斯的一条残肢；而只有在读者的心中，这种美才得以完整实现。
It is a collective Venus of which we have but one truncated limb if we confine ourselves to the thought of the author, for it is fully realized only in the minds of his readers.
这真的让我觉得……我不知道怎么说。
This is very, like I don't know.
埃泽尔和若森在发展接受理论时，是否参考了这段话？
Did Ezer and Jaussen rely on this passage when they were developing reception theory?
这就像文本中的空白，读者主动填补了这些空缺，对我来说，虚拟文本就是所谓的集体维纳斯。
It's just like, it is the gaps in the text, and the reader rises to the occasion, like, to me and it's so that, you know, the virtual text is the collective Venus as it were.
是的
Yeah.
这同样是一个非常典型的文艺复兴意象，你知道的，从一座破损的雕塑中创造出某种全新的东西。
It's quite quite a a renaissance image as well, you know, creating a kind of something new out of a ruined sculpture.
我们应当成为这座维纳斯。
We should be this this this Venus.
无论如何，我划了这条线，因为我想：谢谢你，普鲁斯特。
Anyway, I underlined that because I was like, thank you, Proust.
我们确实会参与这场集体维纳斯，这或许可以成为我们播客的另一个标题。
We will indeed participate in this collective Venus, which you could which could be an alternative title for our podcast.
我想说，我们是不是该
I'm gonna say, should we have should we
把播客命名为‘集体维纳斯’？
have called the podcast collective Venus?
我的意思是，我们一开始并不知道，因为那时我们才刚开始。
I mean, we didn't know because we started at the beginning.
所以，遗憾的是。
So alas.
所以，是的。
So yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我真的很喜欢。
I I really liked it.
它既奇怪又美丽，还有很多像那样的有趣轶事。
It was weird and beautiful and lots of funny anecdotes like that one.
你觉得它怎么样？
How did you find it?
我觉得它令人震惊。
I found it astonishing.
我真的这么觉得。
I really did.
我觉得，说实话，我特别喜欢第三卷。
I think this maybe I mean, I really loved the the third volume.
它非常有趣。
It was very funny.
但这一卷我觉得结构得极其精巧。
But this volume I found just so artfully constructed.
对我来说，它真的像一首音乐作品。
It really felt to me like a musical composition.
比如，它有着非常鲜明的节奏，而且我发现特别有趣的是，他 somehow 让读者经历了和叙述者相同的轨迹——嗯。
Like, there there were very distinctive rhythms, and I also found it fascinating that he somehow managed to produce in the reader the same trajectory that he depicts the narrator going through Mhmm.
从近乎痴迷到逐渐遗忘。
From basically obsession to forgetting.
在录音前我们聊天时，艾玛，你提到读到书的结尾时，几乎记不清开头的内容了。
And when we were chatting before recording, Emma, you mentioned that by the end of the book, you were almost having trouble remembering the beginning of the book.
我应该提一下，这一卷是我们读过的最短的一卷，或者至少是最短的几卷之一。
And I should mention that this volume is the shortest one, I think, we've read so far, or certainly one of the shortest ones.
我完全同意这个评价。
And I I completely agree with that assessment.
就像我最后也记不清我们一开始在哪里了，我认为这部小说正是营造了这种效果。
Like, I also had trouble remembering at the end where we had been, and I think the novel creates that effect.
它实现这一点的部分方式体现在小说的第一部分，这一部分在我的版本中虽然没有被单独列为章节，但讲述的是阿尔贝蒂娜离开后，他去追寻她，却发现她已经去世的故事。
And part of the way it does it is in the in the first section of the novel, which is sometimes divided off as a chapter, in my particular edition it wasn't, but it's a section where Albertine has gone, he pursues her, he finds out that she is dead.
一旦她去世，表示‘死亡’的阴性过去分词‘morte’在这一章中又出现了51次，并且以过去分词的形式反复出现。
And once she dies, the past participle Macht, which means dead in the feminine, reoccurs 51 more times in the chapter, and it reoccurs verbally as a past participle.
它被用作动词、形容词和名词，最常见的是在‘阿尔贝蒂娜已经去世’这个短语中。
It's used as a verb, as an adjective, as a noun, and most commonly, it's in the phrase Albertine had died.
我摘出了一段文字，你可以看到这种重复是多么密集，简直像整个章节的鼓点。
I pulled out a passage where you can see how dense this repetition of that sort of it's really like a drumbeat to this whole chapter.
这里有一段文字能体现这种节奏。
It's like, So here's here's a passage that shows that rhythm.
但抚摸她那件雨衣已不再可能，因为她已经去世了。
But caressing her in her raincoat was no longer possible, for she was dead.
如今我或许会走遍全世界，却再也遇不到一个愿意为我提供某些愉悦的女子，因为阿尔贝蒂娜已经去世了。
I might scour the whole world now without encountering the woman who is prepared to give certain pleasures to me, for Albertine was dead.
我似乎必须在两个事实之间做出选择，以决定哪一个才是真实的。
It seemed that I had to choose between two facts to decide which of them was true.
阿尔贝蒂娜的死亡这一事实，源于我此前一无所知的现实——她生活在都灵的生活，这与我所有关于她的想法相矛盾。
To such an extent was the fact of Albertine's death arising for me from a reality which I had not known, her life in Turin, in contradiction with all my thoughts of her.
她生前积累的如此丰富的记忆，如此多唤起并牵涉她生命的感受，似乎让人难以相信阿尔贝蒂娜已经去世了。
So great a wealth of memories borrowed from the treasury of her life, such a profusion of feelings evoking, implicating her life, seemed to make it incredible that Albertine should be dead.
我觉得这里特别引人注目的是，我们不断看到‘她去世了’、‘阿尔贝蒂娜去世了’、‘她的死’，这些表达从名词形式，最终过渡到了虚拟语气。
And what I find so remarkable here is we have this she was dead, Albertine was dead, her death, so we have it in the as a noun, and then it passes into the subjunctive mood at the end.
阿尔贝蒂娜竟会去世，这简直令人难以置信。
It's incredible that Albertine should be dead.
他似乎满脑子想的都是这件事，但内心仍对这一点存有一丝疑虑。
There's this feeling that it's all he can think about, and yet he continues to have this shadow of a doubt about it.
是的。
Yeah.
这种对震惊的表达方式真是不可思议，不是吗？
It's kind of an incredible representation of shock, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
这种震惊通过你指出的‘她曾去世’这一反复出现的表达不断被唤起。
That shock is repeatedly activated through through this use of that that she she was dead that that you're pointing out.
你刚才读到的这段文字中所突出的难以置信感，似乎是这段文本的关键所在，因为她的离世确实令人难以置信。
And that the incredulity that is highlighted in the passage that you just read as well seems like a really key part of this this text because it's incredible that she was dead.
但正如你之前所说，我们在第一章中长久地体验着那种执拗的不信与对‘她为何离世’这一意义的反复追问，这实在太精彩了。
But then, as you as you were saying before, we so we we live that obsessive, like, disbelief and interrogation of what it could mean that she has died in the long first chapter that is so amazing.
嗯。
Mhmm.
然后我们渐渐忘记了这件事。
And then we gradually forget about it.
到了最后，正如我之前对你说的，她的离世显得以另一种方式难以置信。
And then by the end, yeah, as I said to you before, it seemed incredible that she was dead in a different way.
是的
Yeah.
对
Right.
我无法相信这样的事情会发生在同一本书里。
I couldn't believe that that happened in the same book.
没错
Yes.
正是如此
That's right.
我还想简要提一下继承这个概念，它在这部分文本中出现得极为频繁，几乎和死亡一样密集。
I also want to mention briefly that idea of succession that is so present almost as densely mentioned in this part of the text as the death.
他将回忆描述为痛苦的、连续的色彩变化。
He talks about his memories as painful successive colorings.
他谈到了我对阿贝蒂娜所形成的每一个具体印象，都是依次出现的。
He talks about the idea of the each of the particular ideas of Albertine that I successively formed.
这确实反映了文本的写作方式，因为那里有一连串层层递进的从句，随后被那种震撼所打断。
And that really mirrors the way that it's written because there are these cascading successive clauses that are then punctuated by that shock.
她去世了。
She was dead.
我认为，正是这种结构或形式上的特点，让我在这些如流水般绵延的反思篇章中持续沉浸下去。
And that I think was the kind of structural or formal aspect that really just carried me through these pages of reflections that just like in a very liquid way.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你说得对。
You're right.
这种震撼常常出现在这些连绵不绝的句子末尾。
It often came at the end of these cascading sentences.
它会突然戛然而止，以‘阿尔贝蒂娜去世了’收尾。
It would just sort of come to an abrupt stop with Albertine etemacht.
我还注意到，我实际上使用了在线版本来搜索这个词的出现次数。
And what I noticed too, I actually used an online edition to search the appearance of that word.
这就是我统计出51次出现的原因。
That's how I have my count of 51 occurrences.
我一个个数了一遍。
I counted them up.
但在该卷的后半部分，这个词变得非常罕见。
But in the second half of the volume, the word becomes very rare.
在那最初的沉思之后，这个词只又出现了几次，我认为这种鼓点般的节奏逐渐消退，也促使我们开始遗忘阿贝顿——当提到她时，我们不再聚焦于她消失的事实，而是渐渐记起她。
It's only used a handful more times after that initial meditation, and I think that the fading away of that drumbeat is part of what contributes to us also beginning to forget Abetton, beginning to when she when she is brought up to be remembering her without focusing on the fact of her disappearance.
《普鲁斯特好奇》由公共书籍网（Public Books）联合出品，这是一家在线思想、艺术与学术杂志。
Proust Curious is brought to you in partnership with Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.
您可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。
You can find us at publicbooks.org.
网址是 publicbooks.org。
That's publicbooks.org.
如需为公共书籍捐款，请访问 publicbooks.org/donate。
To donate to public books, visit publicbooks.org/donate.
所以，艾玛，即使在那篇关于悲伤与震惊的长章节中，实际上也立刻涉及了遗忘。
So, Emma, even in that long chapter about grief and about shock, really, it's also already immediately about forgetting.
他的希望和恐惧同样强烈，那就是他会忘记阿尔贝蒂娜。
Like, his hope and fear in equal measure is that he will forget Albertine.
是的。
Yeah.
他说：我知道总有一天我会忘记她。
He says, I knew I should forget her one day.
我已经忘记了吉尔贝特和盖尔芒特夫人。
I had forgotten Gilbert and Madame de Guerrement.
我已经忘记了祖母。
I had forgotten my grandmother.
所以，这既是诅咒也是疗愈，正是你如此优美地描述过的那种命运中正在发生的过程。
So this is the kind of the curse and the cure, and it's the process that's happening in that fate that you described so so beautifully.
我认为这已经非常有趣了，因为我们在这种遗忘中看到，他谈到了两种遗忘的原因。
And I think that's already so interesting because what we see in this forgetting is he's talking about two kinds or reasons for forgetting.
他在谈论失去爱的原因，这正是发生在奇巴特和盖蒙夫人身上的情况，同时他也在谈论死亡的原因。
He's talking about the reason of falling out of love, which is what had happened with Chibat and Madame de Gaumont, and he's also talking about the reason of death.
因此，我认为他确实希望这两种原因能帮助他度过对阿尔贝蒂娜的悲痛。
And so he really is, I think, hoping for those twin reasons to help him get through the grief for Albertine.
但他感到很震惊。
But he's kind of shocked.
他想，我怎么可能忘记这个与我融为一体、活在我体内、对我而言如同生命本身一样的人呢？这既有一种自恋的意味，也是一种爱的方式。
He's like, how could I possibly be forgetting this person who was me, who lives in me, who is the same thing to me as my own life, in both a kind of narcissistic, but also a loving way.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
但他经历了好几个阶段的遗忘，而这种沉思与习惯有关。
But he goes he goes through quite a number of phases with forgetting, and the meditation has to do with habit.
习惯似乎是爱与遗忘的关键方面。
It seems like a critical aspect of love and forgetting is habit.
所以，如果你习惯了爱一个人并有他们陪伴在身边，当这种关系突然结束时，会让人非常震惊。
So if you're in the habit of loving someone and having them around, it's very shocking when that ends.
但一旦你养成了接受他们已离去的习惯，遗忘的机制就会开始发挥作用，帮助你走出悲痛。
But once you build the habit of knowing they are gone, that's what allows the mechanism of forgetting to to take over and to be able to get through and out of grief.
我们看到他逐渐从遗忘她已去世的事实中过渡，因为她在他心中依然如此鲜活。
And we see him transition through forgetting that she's dead because she's so alive to him.
没错。
Right.
某种程度上是这样。
In a way.
我的意思是，正因如此，他才不断需要对自己说：不，不是这样的。
I mean, and then that's what makes him constantly have to say, but no.
实际上，阿尔贝蒂娜已经去世了。
Actually, Albertine was dead.
是的。
Yeah.
我们有一段关于阿尔贝蒂娜持续存在感的精彩文字。
We have a nice passage about that sort of continued presence of Albertine.
艾玛，你愿意为我们读一下这段吗？
Do you wanna read it for us, Emma?
好的。
Yeah.
叙述者或普鲁斯特写道：在我并未明确意识到的情况下，如今构成我潜意识沉思主要主题的，已不再是阿尔贝蒂娜生前的记忆，而是她已去世这一事实；因此，如果我突然中断这些思绪，转而反思自己，令我惊讶的不再是最初几天那样——阿尔贝蒂娜如此鲜活地活在我心中，却已不可能再存在于世上，她已死去；而是阿尔贝蒂娜明明已不复存在于世上、已然离世，却依然如此鲜活地活在我心中。
The narrator or Proust writes, without my being precisely aware of it, it was now this idea of Albertine's death, no longer the present memory of her life that formed the chief subject of my unconscious musings with the result that if I interrupted them suddenly to reflect upon myself, what surprised me was not as in the first days that Albertine, so alive in me, could no longer exist upon the earth, could be dead, but that Albertine, who no longer existed upon the earth, who was dead, should have remained so alive in me.
这些记忆彼此相邻、接连不断，逐渐构筑起一条黑暗的隧道，我的思绪在其中沉睡了如此之久，甚至已不再意识到它的存在；而突然间，一缕阳光穿透了隧道，让我在远方看见一个湛蓝而微笑的世界，在那里，阿尔贝蒂娜不过是一个微不足道却充满魅力的记忆。
Built up by the contiguity of the memories that followed one another, the black tunnel in which my thoughts had been dreaming so long that that they had even ceased to be aware of it, was suddenly broken by an interval of sunlight, allowing me to see in the distance a blue and smiling universe in which Albertine was no more than a memory, unimportant and full of charm.
这段文字非常出色，因为它探讨了逝者持续的生命，这一点我们之前在第四卷中讨论祖母时已经谈过。
This passage is remarkable because it's talking about the continued life of the dead, which we've already talked about in relationship to the grandmother back in volume four.
而且它还以一个令人惊叹的画面收尾：在那个湛蓝而微笑的世界里，阿尔贝蒂娜不过是一个记忆。
And then it also ends on that incredible image of the blue and smiling universe in which Albertine was no more than a memory.
关于 grief 是一场必须穿越的旅程、一条隧道——这种说法其实有点陈词滥调，但普鲁斯特从这个陈词滥调出发，立刻将其转化为一个生动而深刻的意象：在这里，尺度在起作用，隧道的压抑感让位于一个宇宙，而这个宇宙甚至可能微笑；阿尔贝蒂娜依然只是一个记忆，这实际上与本章节的主旨相悖——本章节讲的是连记忆都已消失，而这种无足轻重，反而带来了一种独特的魅力。
The idea of this being a a journey, a tunnel that you have to get through, I mean, that's not that's a bit of a cliche idea about grief, but he starts with this cliche and immediately turns it into this incredible, vivid image where scale is at play, the claustrophobia of the tunnel gives way to a universe, the idea universe might smile, that Albertine continues to be a memory, which actually goes against a lot of what this section is about, which is about not even having the memory, and that lack of importance can give a certain charm.
我被这段文字深深吸引。
I'm just fascinated by this passage.
是的。
Yeah.
我特别喜欢这是一个蓝色的宇宙。
And I love that it's a blue universe.
没错。
Yes.
这让我想起文艺复兴时期的绘画，尤其是那些有着深邃蓝色远景的意大利作品。
It reminds me of Renaissance paintings, you know, the especially the Italian ones that have a really blue far distant background.
是的。
Yeah.
事实上，他后来参观了斯克罗维尼礼拜堂，对吧？是的。
Well, and indeed, he later on, he visits the Scroveni Chapel, right Yeah.
乔托那种独特的蓝色让他着迷。
In Giotto's particular shade of blue is an object of fascination for him.
是的。
Yeah.
所以感觉阿尔贝蒂娜可能进入了那个宇宙，即乔托画作中普齐的宇宙。
So it feels like maybe that's the universe that Albertine has gone into, the universe of the Puzzi in a Giotto painting.
是的。
Yeah.
但蓝色是距离的颜色。
But blue is the color of distance.
蓝色是距离的颜色。
Blue is the color of distance.
啊。
Ah.
在那些画作中确实是这样。
In those paintings, it is.
所以我觉得这真是太奇妙了，它就在这里。
And so I just think it's so amazing that that's here.
而且我特别喜欢他说的‘无足轻重却充满魅力’。
And and I love that he says unimportant and full of charm.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我想这正是你的复述想要表达的，这个持续真实的观点，因为它确实感觉如此贴切。
I guess this is what your copy is getting at with this ceaselessly truthful comment because it just does feel so right.
用法语来说，它真的充满张力。
It feels just, in French, just really juiced.
就像，失去一个人就是这种感觉。
Like, that's just what it's like to lose someone.
我想在浪漫的分离中，比如彻底的分手，或者在死亡的时候。
I I and I would say in a romantic separation, like a definitive breakup or in in dying.
对吧？
Right?
比如，如果有人以一种永久的方式离开了你的生活，这就是那种感觉。
Like, say if someone is gone from your life in a permanent way, this is what it's like.
是的。
Yeah.
他们进入了蓝色而微笑的世界。
They enter the blue and smiling universe.
这种魅力，我认为是一种魅力，或者说是依然存在的吸引力。
And that charm, I think, is charisma or kind of like an attraction that still exists.
但这也是一种魔力，一种类似通灵的特质，嗯。
But it's also the kind of magic, kind of necromantic side of Mhmm.
普鲁斯特也对这种魅力非常感兴趣。
Charm that Proust is also really interested in.
但说到魅力这一点，它让我想起了另一个让我深有共鸣的时刻——当叙述者开始不再因阿尔贝蒂娜的突然离世而如此悲痛时。
But also on this point about charm, it reminds me of another moment that rang extremely true to me when the narrator is starting to be less devastated about Albertine's sudden death.
他说，从那一刻起，我开始写信给所有朋友，告诉他们我刚刚经历了巨大的悲伤，而实际上，我已经不再感到悲伤了。
And he says, it was from this moment that I began to write to all my friends that I had just experienced great sorrow and to cease to feel it.
是的。
Yeah.
巨大的悲伤有一种非常私密的特质，不是吗？
There's something really private about great sorrow, isn't there?
感觉真的难以言表。
Feels really inexpressible.
因此，当你能够表达关于它的某些东西时，那不可能是悲伤本身。
And so when you're able to express something about it, it can't be the thing itself.
话虽如此，我认为这部作品的非凡之处在于，它 somehow 表达了巨大的悲伤。
Now that being said, I think that's what's remarkable about this volume is it somehow does express great sorrow.
它表达了一些我常常觉得依然极其个人化且无法言说的东西。
It expresses something that I feel often remains deeply individual and ineffable.
是的。
Yeah.
同时，也将它呈现给一位未知的读者，作为属于它自己的那个蓝色而微笑的世界。
And at the same time, of showing it to a kind of unknown reader as its own version of a blue and smiling universe.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
那是从远处看，觉得它很迷人。
That's from a distance and finding it charming.
对。
Right.
能够分析它，并如此巧妙地构建它。
Being able to analyze it and being able to construct it so artfully.
是的。
Yeah.
并体验那种魔力。
And experiencing the magic.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
他长期思考遗忘与记忆，最终得出的结论或许并不令人意外，更多是对时间本质的反思。
Part of what ends up coming out of his long meditations on forgetting and memory is perhaps unsurprisingly more reflection about the nature of time.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因为显然，遗忘、记忆和时间在很多方面都紧密相连。
Because obviously, forgetting memory and time are intimately bound up with one another in a lot of ways.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们几乎无法不提及这部系列作品的标题《追忆似水年华》，因为它贯穿了我们讨论的方方面面。
I feel like we almost can't talk about the title of this series, In Search of Lost Time, because it's just so present in everything we're talking about.
但这一卷确实提出了一个问题：我们所追寻的‘失去的时间’究竟是什么？
But this volume does really ask, like, what is the lost time that we're searching for?
我们为什么要寻找它？
Why are we searching for it?
是因为我们已经遗忘了吗？
Is it because we've forgotten it?
还是说我们想要
Is it why do we want to
把它找回来？
get it back?
我们该如何把它找回来？
And how do we get it back?
比如，有可能重新找回它吗？
Like, is it possible to recover it?
当然，我们都清楚，下一卷也是最后一卷叫作《重现的时光》，显然显然，我们最终会找回它。
And, of course, we all know that the next and final volume is called Time Regained, so evidently evidently, we're going to get it back.
但在这里，他对走出阿尔贝蒂娜之痛、逐渐从那巨大悲伤中恢复的反思，带来了一些令人震惊而激动人心的关于时间的见解。
But here, his reflections on getting over Albertine, starting to emerge from that great sorrow yield some really shocking and exciting thoughts about time.
让我读一下这段文字。
Let me read this passage.
哦，我应该说，他在这里提到了一个他被吸引的女孩。
Oh, I should say that he mentions a girl that he's attracted to here.
他看到一位金发女子从加蒙公爵夫人家里走出来，心想她可能是那位在妓院工作的加蒙家族的远亲。
He saw a blonde woman coming out of Duchess de Gamont's house, and he thought it might be a distant relative of the Gamont who works at a brothel.
所以当她对他抛来一个挑逗的眼神时，他顿时激动起来，对这个可能性感到非常兴奋。
So when she gave him a flirty look, he was like, ah, and got very excited about this possibility.
于是他反复思考，并写下这些内容。
And so he thinks about this and writes.
通过另一种反应——尽管那只是分心，是对德·波尔舍维尔小姐的渴望——才让我突然意识到并清楚地感受到自己的遗忘。
By another reaction, albeit it was the distraction, the desire for mademoiselle des porcheville, that's the girl that I just mentioned, that had made my forgetting suddenly apparent and perceptible.
如果事实确实是时间逐渐带来遗忘，那么遗忘也无疑深刻地改变了我们对时间的认知。
If the fact remains that it is time that gradually brings oblivion, oblivion does not fail to alter profoundly our notion of time.
时间中存在光学错觉，就像空间中一样。
There are optical errors in time as there are in space.
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我内心深处那种旧有的、想要工作、弥补失去的时间、改变生活方式——或者说开始真正生活的冲动，让我产生了一种错觉，仿佛自己依然像过去一样年轻；然而，回忆起我生命中接连发生的所有事件，以及我内心深处相继起伏的情感，因为当我们发生巨大改变时，往往会误以为自己活得更久。
The persistence within me of an old impulse to work, to make up for lost time, to change my way of life, or rather to begin to live, gave me the illusion that I was still as young as in the past, and yet the memory of all the events that has succeeded one another in my life, and also of those that has succeeded one another in my heart, for when we have greatly changed, we are misled to suppose that we have lived longer.
在阿尔贝蒂娜生命最后的几个月里，那些日子在我眼中显得比整整一年还要漫长。
In the course of those last months of Albertine's existence, had made them seem to me much longer than a year.
如今，对这么多事情的遗忘，将我与不久前发生的事件隔开，形成了一道道空旷的深渊，使它们看起来如此遥远——因为我拥有所谓的‘时间’去遗忘它们，这些遗忘以碎片化、不规则的方式插入我的记忆，如同海上浓雾抹去所有地标，混淆并打乱了我对距离和时间的感知，时而将它们压缩，时而将它们拉长，让我误以为自己现在离某些事物更远，或更近，而实际上并非如此。
And now this oblivion of so many things, separating me by gulfs of empty space from quite recent events, that they made me think remote, because I had what is called the time to forget them by its fragmentary, irregular interpolation in my memory, like a thick fog at sea that obliterates all the landmarks, confused, dislocated my sense of distances and time, contracted in one place, extended in another, and made me suppose myself now farther away from things, now far closer to them than I really was.
比我实际的距离更远。
Well, than I really was.
我想，这大概就是所谓的着陆点。
That's that's, I guess, the kind of landing pad.
是的。
Yes.
真是令人难以置信的几句话。
Incredible couple of sentences.
在那句简洁有力地指出‘时间如同空间一样存在视觉误差’的断言之后，紧跟着一句极其复杂的句子。
One incredibly complicated sentence that follows this sort of lapidary declaration that there are optical errors in time as there are in space.
是的。
Yeah.
艾玛，说时间具有某种‘光学’，这到底是什么意思呢？
Emma, what can it possibly mean for time to have an optics?
好问题。
Fair question?
自从我读到这句话，我就一直在思考这个问题。
I've been thinking about that since I read it.
我想，这大概就是大脑如何抓住某种方式，把这种抽象的东西变得具体可感。
I I guess it's just the way that the mind kind of latches onto a way to make this abstract thing tangible.
你会自然而然地把它转化成一种图像或隐喻，而在这里，它变成了一种景观。
It kind of you just automatically turn it into a kind of image or a metaphor, and in this case, it's a landscape.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这是一种感觉，认为时间是某种你可以‘看见’的东西。
And so it's a sense that time is something that you see.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
不知怎的。
Somehow.
而且你是在通过某种扭曲的透镜来看待它。
And that it's you're seeing it through a distorting lens of some sort.
是的。
Yeah.
我想，想象时间就是涉及创造图像。
I suppose it's about imagining time involves making images.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那种对想象力的理解。
That sense of what what imagination is.
我们确实以某种方式感知时间，而谈论感知时，通过谈论视觉来讨论比谈论那种众所周知难以言表的时间体验要容易得多。
And we do perceive time in some way, and it's easier to perhaps talk about perception by talking about sight than it is to talk about the really, you know, famously difficult to articulate experience of time.
还有一种持续的不合时宜感，一种时间内部的持续断裂，因此会有一些旧的事物保留下来，比如旧的希望、梦想，以及他将改变生活方式之类的念头。
There's also this sense of a persistent anachronism, a persistent disjuncture within time, so that there will be these old things that have remained, these old hopes, dreams, the idea that he will change his way of life, etcetera.
即使那些更近期、更细微的事件开始逐渐远去，即使他萌生改变人生念头的起点更加遥远，这些旧事物依然存在。
That persists even though more recent things that were more discreet as events start to recede into the far distance, even though the beginning of the impulse to make something of his life is even more distant.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
他正在挑战你，让你通过语言和图像意识到我们所有人都知道却回避的事情：我们其实并不清楚自己在时间中的位置。
And he's challenging you to be aware in like words and pictures of something that we all kind of know and avoid, which is that we don't really know where we are in time.
我们并不真正了解自己记忆中的各个时间片段之间是如何关联的，而且我们实际上记得的东西并不多。
We don't really know how all the different bits of time that we remember relate to one another, and we really don't remember that much.
是的。
Yeah.
还有，特里布尔，艾玛。
And Terrible, Emma.
糟糕透了。
Terrible.
你怎么敢？
How dare you?
我已经告诉过你，我希望自己有记性的天赋，而你现在又在跟我说这个。
I already told you that I wished I had the gift of memory, and you're telling me that.
是的。
Yeah.
这种对真正主观自我根基的渴望，非常容易引起共鸣。
This, like, longing for for for a real real kind of subjective grounding of the self is is very relatable.
但它注定会被蒙上一层迷雾。
And it can't help but be fogged over, really.
是的。
Yeah.
但普鲁斯特也在思考超越这种极其个人化的东西，我的意思是，我们完全可以用这种极其孤立、独特的视角来讨论这一卷，而我认为，我们正是被这种视角所吸引。
But Proust is also thinking beyond the really intensely individual here because, I mean, we could definitely be forgiven for talking about this volume entirely in terms of this really intense isolated singular perspective that we are being kind of seduced by, I would argue here.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但我也非常欣赏那些继续使用视觉隐喻并拉远视角的时刻。
But I also really appreciated the moments where to continue the visual metaphors kind of zooms out.
或者甚至可能是极度放大视角。
Or maybe even massively zooms in.
比如，他将人体细胞的更新与记忆的非机械性更新或失败的更新进行了比较。
Like he compares like the renewing of cells in the human body to the less mechanical renewal or failed renewal of memory.
他提到，我认为他将一个人生命中的连续阶段与历史的不同时期进行了类比。
He bit and I think he makes an analogy between like the succession successive phases of a person's life and successive periods of history.
他还思考了那种存在于个人生命中的无意识习惯，同时也存在于代际之间和家庭之中。
And he also thinks about unconscious retained habits that occur within a single person's life, but also across generations and in and in families.
所以有一段是关于吉尔伯特的，因为她像之前提到的那样强势回归，而且描述了她的性格。
So there's a section about Gilbert because she comes back with a bang, as we mentioned, and about what she's like.
她的个性中带有一种表观遗传的记忆。
And there's a kind of epigenetic memory in her personality.
对吧？
Right?
因为她
Because she
是的。
Yeah.
她继承了父母的一些特质。
Has some of the qualities of her parents.
她也有自己的特质，普鲁斯特将代际视为累积的自我中心，这一点我非常认同，原因有很多。
She has some of her own qualities, and Proust reflects on generations as accumulated egoisms, which I appreciated for various reasons.
我还曾思考过这与遗忘之间的关系。
And I had thought about that in relation to forgetting.
你能明白为什么吗？
Can you see can you see why?
比如，这些习惯、行为和存在方式似乎被遗忘了，因为它们来自上一代人。
Like, these kind of habits and behaviors and ways of being that seem to be forgotten because they're from a past generation.
它们来自那些已经被遗忘的人，但却以一种近乎自动的方式重现。
They're from, like, people who've been forgotten, but they are coming back in this kind of almost automatic way.
你知道，这简直就像一种萦绕不去的幽灵。
You know, it's sort of like the it's a haunting really in a way.
这是一种某些特质不由自主地持续存在的情况，是的。
It's an involuntary persistence of of certain qualities that Yeah.
某种程度上，这就像阿尔贝蒂娜在叙述者心中长久存活的方式，尽管她已经去世。
In a sense, it's it's almost like the the way in which Albertine remains alive inside the narrator for at least for a long time, regardless of the fact of her death.
这几乎就像是这种现象在家庭中的具体体现。
This is almost like the physical manifestation of that within families.
是的。
Yeah.
胡安即使在吉尔伯特试图将他抹去的情况下，依然活在她心中。
Juan remains alive in Gilbert's, even though she attempts to erase him.
就像，这最终注定会失败。
Like, it's ultimately going to be unsuccessful.
如果你最近没读过这本书，吉尔伯特采用了继父的名字，不允许任何人当着她的面提起斯旺，尽管斯旺是一位深爱她的父亲，还留给她一笔财富，使她成为社会中极具吸引力的年轻女子。
In case you haven't read this recently, Gilbert takes the name of her stepfather and doesn't allow anyone to mention Swan in her presence, even though he was a devoted father who also left her the fortune that makes her a very eligible young woman in society.
所以尽管他也很受欢迎，这看起来有点令人费解，为什么……
So despite and he was also popular, so it's like, it's it's a little bit baffling why
她太苛刻了。
she very harsh.
这非常苛刻，而且表面上看似乎缺乏充分的动机。
It's very harsh, and it's, like, fairly under motivated seemingly.
这几乎像是普鲁斯特用来向我们展示遗忘与记忆的一种方式，以及这些如何被包含在代际更替之中。
It's almost like a vehicle for for Proust to show us forgetting and remembering and how that kind of gets contained within a generational shift.
因此，我对这些我们一直讨论的主题如何扩展到更广阔的世界非常感兴趣。
So I was really interested in the ways that this these kinds of themes that we've been talking about broaden out into the world.
而且我也，是的。
And I also yeah.
我非常喜欢将世代描述为累积的自我主义。
I love that description of generations as accumulated egoisms.
但我要指出，这些类型的缺陷在普鲁斯特看来被一些自然的限制所缓和。
But I will note that those kind of defects are tempered according to Proust by some natural restrictions.
因此他说，通过世代的演变，道德化学作用以无限的方式稳定并中和了那些变得过于强大的元素，这将为家族史带来丰富的多样性。
So he says, the combinations by which in the course of generations, moral chemistry thus stabilizes and renders innocuous the elements that were becoming too powerful are infinite and would give an exciting variety to family history.
这是我最喜欢的一句话。
One of my favorite sentences in the whole thing.
而且我会继续使用——我的意思是，在经历了我们所有的讨论之后，我不该对记忆显得傲慢，但我还是会保留‘道德化学’这个说法。
And I'm just gonna keep well, I mean, I can't be arrogant now about memory after all of our discussions, but I think I'm gonna keep the phrase moral chemistry.
‘道德化学’这个说法真的很强大。
Moral chemistry is really it's a it's really powerful as a phrase.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，继续沿着这个稍微扩展的话题。
And and just continuing on this kind of brief broadening out.
这本书中，所有不同类型的家庭和社会结构都在被遗忘和重塑，这背后有一种黑暗感。
It's a kind of darkness to all the different kinds of family social constructions that are being forgotten and renewed across across this book.
而且，我们应当简要提一下，确实存在一些真正残酷的——
And I mean, we should just mention briefly that there are some real, like, kind of cruel There's
这里确实有一种疯狂。
a real craziness here.
是的。
Yeah.
残酷且犯罪的行为。
Cruel and criminal behavior.
还有更多一点的绑架事件。
There's more a bit more kidnapping.
实际上，不止一起绑架事件。
More than one, actually, incident of kidnapping.
不止一次发生以诱骗手段套取他人信息的情况。
More than one in instance of seduction just to ring information from someone.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
在这本书里，人们彼此之间并没有表现出多少善意。
Like, people people are not treating each other with that much kindness in this in this volume.
你之前说过，你不喜欢别人把‘给予’或‘善良’当作明确目标。
Well, you did say that you didn't like it when people declared their goal was to be giving or kind.
听我说。
Listen.
听我说。
Listen.
我不是说我不喜欢善良。
I didn't say I don't like kindness.
我当然喜欢善良。
I obviously like kindness.
我只是不喜欢它被大张旗鼓地宣传。
I just don't like it when it's really loudly advertised.
好吧。
Okay.
但没有人会在第六卷里这么做，不过我觉得所有不同的角色都在彼此周围徘徊，形成一种交换、不信任和刺激的关系，我想。
But no one no one is doing that in volume six of But I think all the different characters are kind of circling around each other in a relationship of like exchange and mistrust and stimulation, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为不信任确实是一个核心主题，是否可能建立信任一直如此，不仅体现在对爱情对象的极度防备上，也体现在朋友之间，比如圣路易斯在不知道叙述者在听的时候，暴露出极其残忍的一面，而在本卷末尾，他再也无法以同样的方式维持这段友谊。
I I do think mistrust has been like, whether or not trust is possible has been a real theme, and not just with the jealously guarded love objects, but also, you know, between friends, like Saint Louis reveals himself to be hideously cruel when he doesn't realize the narrator is listening, and then at towards the end of the volume is unable to maintain his friendship in the same way.
这基本上就是一种对任何你不付费之人的信任可能性的削弱。
It's just this sort of attenuation of any sort of possibility of trusting anyone you're not paying, basically.
即便如此，问题依然会出现。
And even then, like, questions arise.
但这也是叙述者在结尾发现的一部分，即圣路易斯生活的另一种完全不同的版本，而他自己也拥有了生活的第二种版本，因为根据叙述者的说法，他开始被男性而非女性吸引。
But that is also part of the way that the narrator discovers at the end, like a a completely different second version of Saint Louis' life where and he also has a kind of second version of his own life because he starts to, according to the narrator, be attracted to men rather than women.
叙述者评论道：一切至少都是双重的。
And the narrator comments, everything is at least dual.
这种重复与双重性，即关于你如何真正感知现实的困惑，也在这一卷中非常强烈地体现出来。
And this idea of doubling and the double being a kind of confusion in relation to how you can actually perceive reality is also something that comes through very strongly in in this volume.
有很多不对称的对称和双重性。
There are lots of kind of symmetries and doubles that aren't quite balanced.
所以是一种半对称、虚假的双重性。
So kind of half symmetry, false doubles.
是的。
Yeah.
我真觉得这一卷就像一系列不断增多的可能性和一系列不断增多的双重形象。
It's really I really feel like this particular volume is it's like a series of proliferating possibilities and a series of proliferating doubles.
它几乎像一面镜子大厅，尤其是阿尔贝蒂娜的多重镜像。
It almost feels like a hall of mirrors and particularly doubles of Albertine.
不断将阿尔贝蒂娜与叙述者的关系，与奥黛特和斯万的关系进行比较。
There are constant comparisons of Albertine and the narrator's relationship to that of Odette and Swan.
阿尔贝蒂娜与吉尔贝特的纠缠，不仅源于那个时刻——他在街上看到并没认出的吉尔贝特，帮助他度过了对阿尔贝蒂娜的悲痛；还体现在一封电报中这两者极为奇特的混淆。
Albertine and Gilbert are entangled not only because of that moment where a desire for Gilbert, whom he sees and doesn't recognize on the street, helps him move through his grief for Albertine, but also in this very odd conflation of the two in a telegram.
而或许最出人意料的是，阿尔贝蒂娜与叙述者祖母之间始终存在一种联系。
And then perhaps least expected of all, there's a persistent link between Albertine and the narrator's grandmother.
阿尔贝蒂娜某种意义上几乎像一个分形。
Albertine is somehow it's almost like she's a fractal.
她在所有这些不同关系中反复出现。
She's repeated everywhere in all of these different relationships.
但普鲁斯特谨慎地指出，这一切都不完全准确。
But Proust is careful to say that none of it is quite right.
这些重复都带有差异。
These repetitions are are are with a difference.
当他将阿尔贝蒂娜与奥黛特比较时，他写道：‘因为没有任何事物会完全重复，即使我们因性格的亲缘关系和境遇的相似而挑选出来、用以呈现为对称的最相似的人生，在许多方面仍截然相反。'
When he's comparing Albertine and Odette, he writes, for nothing ever repeats itself exactly, and the most analogous lives that, thanks to the kinship of character and the similarity of circumstances, we may select in order to represent them as symmetrical, remain in many respects opposite.
我一直在想，她在某种程度上也是叙述者的一个镜像。
I was thinking that she's about as a kind of double for the narrator in some ways also.
她其实并不真的在为父亲哀悼。
She's kind of I know she's not really grieving her father.
她更像是
She's kind of
是的。
Yeah.
她是在拒绝他，但也在应对他的缺席。
She's rejecting him, but she is dealing with his absence.
没错。
Yes.
她是否在应对受挫的爱和错位的信号呢？
And is she dealing with thwarted love and kind of misdirected signs?
我认为她也是。
I think she is also.
在卷末，她们重新回顾了共同的回忆，她们一起成长，经历了几乎平行的经历，但这种平行是严格意义上的几何式平行——她们从未真正交汇。
She also at the end of the volume, they revisit their memories together, and they really have grown up together and had almost parallel experiences with each other, but parallel in the most, you know, geometric sense of the term in that they never intersected.
尽管她们都曾对彼此产生过相似的想法和希望，却从未表达出来。
And somehow, even though they both were experiencing some of the same thoughts and hopes with regards to the other one that was never communicated.
是的。
Yeah.
吉赛尔说，哦，对了，记得我们小时候在花园里，我看着你，觉得你特别有魅力。
There's a wonderful kind of tragic comic irony in Giselle saying, oh, yeah, you know, when I looked at you in that garden when we were kids, I thought you were extremely hot.
还有，当我走在街上看到你，朝你眨了眨眼，那时候我确实是在向你示好。
And also, when I saw you on the street and I kinda winked at you, yeah, I was totally hitting on you at that point at that moment.
对。
Right.
而他却说，那我们在香榭丽舍大街上的那段呢？
And he's and he's like he's like, but what about the part when we were at the Champs Elysees?
她回答：那时你对我喜欢得太过头了。
She's like, then you liked me too much.
这对我来说太多了。
It was too much for me.
是的。
Yeah.
真的很有趣，因为在那一刻，他们实际上并没有自己以为的那么不同。
It was just so so funny that they actually weren't as different as they thought they were in that moment.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
第一印象有时是正确的。
That that the first perception is sometimes correct.
对吧？
Right?
这引发了一场漫长的沉思。
That's like that gives rise to a long meditation.
但我要说的是，我之前提到过但认为我们还需要讨论的部分是：叙述者去了威尼斯。
But the the part about speaking of the about, the part that I mentioned already, but that I think we need to talk about is so the narrator has traveled to Venice.
他和母亲在一起，收到了一封电报。
He's there with his mother, and he receives a telegram.
而且显然，威尼斯的电报系统非常糟糕，这封电报被折腾得厉害，几乎难以辨认。
And apparently, the telegram system is very bad in Venice, and this one has been, like, very battered and is difficult to read.
但他还是看懂了，电报的大意是：嘿，是阿尔贝蒂娜。
But he makes it out, and it essentially says, hey, it's Albertine.
我没死，我想知道你愿不愿意娶我。
I'm not actually dead, and I was wondering if you want to marry me.
我这是在转述。
I'm paraphrasing.
显然，这不是一句普鲁斯特式的句子。
Obviously, that wasn't a Proustian sentence.
我喜欢这个转述。
I love that paraphrase.
但他已经彻底遗忘了阿尔贝蒂娜，以至于她突然奇迹般地复活了，他却毫不在意，只觉得‘随便吧’。
But but he it has moved so far into his forgetting of Albertine that he doesn't care that she's suddenly, miraculously alive, and it's just like, whatevs.
我们继续讲我跟妈妈的家族度假。
We're gonna keep stay on my family vacation with my mom.
他一点也不急着再见她，也不在乎。
Is in no rush to see her again and doesn't care.
显然，作为读者，我们知道这封电报不可能是那个意思，因为自从她去世以来，已经过去了至少六个月，可能都快一年了。
Obviously, as readers, we see that it's deeply improbable that that is what that telegram is, because it's been a long time, at least six months, probably a year since her death.
他一直在见她的许多朋友和熟人。
He's been seeing many of her friends and acquaintance.
没人提过她还活着，躲藏在某个地方。
No one has mentioned that she's hidden away somewhere alive.
这根本不可能是对的。
It's just it it that can't be right.
但叙述者对此却相当淡然，只是说，好吧，随便吧。
Yet the narrator is sort of sanguine about it and just is like, yeah, well, whatever.
反正我也不再爱她了。
I don't love her anymore anyhow.
结果发现，这封电报实际上是吉尔伯特通知他她已嫁给圣路易斯的消息。
It turns out that this telegram was in fact from Gilbert informing him of her marriage to Saint Louis.
所以当电报中提到婚姻时，她指的是自己与圣路易斯的婚姻。
And so when she's when there's mention of marriage in it, she's talking about her own marriage to Saint Louis.
这与叙述者毫无关系。
It has nothing to do with the narrator.
是的。
Yeah.
他完全误解了它。
He just completely misread it.
是的。
Yeah.
但这种用吉尔伯特代替阿尔贝蒂娜的做法很奇怪，吉尔伯特告诉他的是实际上与他关系不大的事，而那封 supposedly 来自阿尔贝蒂娜的信本应彻底影响他的全部感受，我觉得这种替代真的让人困惑。
But this sort of, like, substitution of Gilbert for Albertine, but Gilbert's telling him about something that actually has very little to do with him, whereas the putative letter from Albertine should have really inflected his entire I find this whole substitution really confusing.
是的。
Yeah.
我同意。
I agree.
即使当他意识到自己弄错了，他也只是说，哦，对啊。
And even when he realizes that he's been mistaken, he's like, oh, yeah.
你知道的，那封信的笔迹看起来和阿尔贝蒂娜一模一样，因为笔迹有这些奇特的特征。
Well, you know, the way that writes looks exactly like Albertine due to these quirks of handwriting.
我就是觉得无法接受。
It's like, I just can't.
这不可能。
That can't be
对。
right.
我看不出来。
I can't see it.
但这两个女人也确实如此，我的意思是，是的，他对高蒙夫人有过强烈的迷恋，但那属于另一种情况。
But it's also just like these two women who I mean, yes, he had that big crush on Madame de Gaumont, but that was kind of in a different category.
对吧？
Right?
吉贝和阿尔贝蒂娜是两个他真正花了很多时间相处的女性，而嗯。
The Gibbets and Albertine are the two women with whom he actually does spend a great deal of time while Mhmm.
他深深迷恋她们，并对两者都产生了强烈的嫉妒。
Infatuated with them and becomes deeply jealous of both of them.
她们可以说是他青春期或走向成年的两个端点。
And they are sort of already bookends, we could say, of his adolescence or of his coming to manhood.
也许‘青春期’这个时间范围太狭窄了。
Perhaps adolescence is too narrow of a of a band of time.
至于吉伯特情节的结局，当她嫁给别人时，这成了一个虚假的开端，重新唤起一个早已结束的另一个情节的虚假复活。
And then for the the conclusion of the Gilbert plot, the sort of definitive conclusion when she gets married to someone else to be a false opening into a false resurrection of an already concluded plot with the other one.
是的
Yeah.
我感觉无论怎么尝试描述这件事，更不用说分析它了，都处处碰壁。
I feel like I'm bumping up against walls everywhere I turn as I attempt to describe this, much less to analyze it.
是的
Yeah.
有人说过，他本来完全可以和阿尔贝蒂娜结婚的。
And says or or someone says of him, oh, he could that he could definitely have married Albertine.
对
Yes.
是的
Yeah.
没错
That's right.
没错，我跟你说过的。
That's right, I told you.
是的
Yeah.
对
Right.
这个奇怪的爱情四方关系
This weird love square
是的
Yes.
是的
Yeah.
这确实是一个爱情四方关系。
It is a love square.
这就像一个提醒，既表明事情总有可能以不同方式发展或被重新诠释，也体现了这种无尽的重新诠释循环。
Is so there as a reminder both that things could always turn out differently or be reinterpreted and this endless turn of reinterpretation.
但也表明，每个角色在某种程度上都是其他人的替身。
But also that every character is kind of in some ways a stand in for someone else.
我们要替换一下。
We're gonna substitute.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们
I don't think we're
可能无法彻底弄清楚这个问题，但这让我想起了另一个我也觉得无法彻底弄清的问题，那就是这本书中的角色不仅在叙事层面上彼此形成双重关系。
gonna get to the bottom of it, but it does remind me of another problem that I also don't think we can get to the bottom of, which is the way that this book contains characters that not only are in relationships of doubleness to one another, like, in the diegetic narrative.
而且，还存在一些传记式的解读。
But also, there are these biographical readings.
因此，阿尔贝蒂娜不仅是书中所有角色（包括吉尔贝特）的某种镜像。
So Albertine is not only a kind of double for all the characters in the book, including Gilbert.
她也象征着普鲁斯特在现实生活中真正爱过的一个男人，嗯。
She's also a kind of figure for a man that Proust actually did love in real life Mhmm.
叫什么来着，我觉得是阿尔弗雷德，是的。
Called, I think, Alfred Yes.
他在一场空难中去世了。
Who died in a plane crash.
所以这某种程度上是
So there is kind
普鲁斯特曾去拜访过他。
of there's a visit to that Proust had bought him.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
所以所有这些关于他内疚的内容——他某种程度上通过囚禁阿尔贝蒂娜导致了她的死亡。
So all this stuff about him being guilty that he kind of forced Albertine to her death by trapping her.
通过囚禁她并给她那匹她摔死的马。
By trapping her and giving her the horse that she fell off of.
是的。
Yeah.
这就像对他生活中与阿尔弗雷德发生的事情的直接反映。
It's like it's like a very it's it's a fairly direct echo of what had happened in his life with this Alfred guy.
我们还应该提到，这是一种几乎系统化的解读普鲁斯特的方式，即寻找可能解释某些原因的传记细节。
And we should mention that this is this is a almost system of reading Proust where looking for biographical details that might explain Yeah.
《追忆似水年华》中的某些人物。
Some of the characters in the Recherche.
这被称为转置阅读法。
This is called the transposition reading.
我认为目前这种观点不太流行，但无论他是否将自己的阿尔弗雷德关系投射到叙述者与阿尔贝蒂娜的经历中，很明显，他确实受到了自己生活中某些事实的启发——在我看来，这一点是清楚的。
I think it's rather unfashionable currently, but whether or not he's transposed his relationship with Alfred into what the narrator goes through with Albertine, it's clear that he was inspired by certain facts that happened in his I I to me, it's clear.
就像这样，好吧。
It's like, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
他给他买了飞机。
He bought him the plane.
飞机坠毁了。
The plane crashed.
他给她买了马。
He bought her the horse.
马把她甩了下来。
The horse knocked her off.
这真的太多了。
Like, that's really a lot.
然后还有另一个非常直接的平行对照。
And then there's this other really direct parallel.
是的。
Yeah.
根据我版本中的脚注，阿尔贝蒂娜离开叙述者时写的那封信，就是阿尔弗雷德留给真实存在的马塞尔的那封信，你知道的，信的结尾是‘再见’。
Well, according to the footnote in my edition, the letter that Albertine writes to the narrator when she leaves him is the letter that Alfred left for the real Massa, you know, that ends, goodbye.
我把最好的自己留给你。
I leave you the best of myself.
而且说实话，这封信真的完全不同。
And honestly, that letter was really totally different.
它确实感觉像是被写出来的，信本来就应该这样，但把他在现实生活中这段爱情关系的档案引入虚构世界，这种移植——我想他一直都在这么做，对吧？就像我们之前讨论过的那些机智的语句。
It did feel like it was written, which a letter should, but to bring the archive of this love affair that he had in real life into the fictional world and that sort of importation, which I guess he's been doing all along, right, with some of the witticisms that we've talked about.
是的。
Yeah.
他会有一些注释，说明他真的听某人说过这样的话，等等。
There will be notes that he actually heard someone say that, etcetera.
但这封阿尔贝蒂娜离开他的信似乎显得更加核心，它是这部小说中最重要的事件之一。
But it seems a little bit more central, the the letter of Albertine leaving him is one of the sort of big events of this novel.
对。
Yeah.
最让我觉得有趣的是，这竟然是他真实的分手信。
It's so it's so it's so interesting to me that that's his real breakup letter.
之后，他许多的悔恨和观察读起来都相当具有自传色彩。
And then a lot of his kind of regrets and observations do read quite autobiographically after that.
但我认为，普鲁斯特通过这些双重角色、这些配对、这些别扭的对称性想要告诉我们的是，我们必须接受这种双重性。
But I suppose that what Proust is telling us with all these doubles, all these pairs, all these awkward symmetries is that we have to live with it being both.
你知道的。
You know?
阿尔贝蒂娜是一个女性角色，她象征着对女性的吸引，也象征着对那些被女性吸引的女性的思考，同时她也是一个拥有自己独立生命的小说人物。
Albertine is a woman who's a figure for what it is to be attracted to women, also for thinking about women who are attracted to women themselves, and a character in a text that has her own life as a character.
但她也是一个男人，这个男人以及所有其他角色。
But she's also a man and this man and all these other characters.
普鲁斯特让我们不得不面对这种混乱，因为正如他所说，现实是模糊而难以分辨的。
And Proust is making us live with that because, as he says, reality is confusing and difficult to to to discern.
艾玛，我觉得这正好自然地引出了我们本集的压轴环节——本卷的赢家与输家。
Emma, I think that's actually a great segue into our capstone segment, the winners and losers of this volume.
是的。
Yeah.
告诉我，汉娜，你认为第六卷的赢家是谁？
Tell me, Hannah, who was your winner of volume six?
我在这上面纠结了很久。
I struggled with this.
当然。
Of course.
但我当然。
But I of course.
但我认为，我会反常地宣布阿尔贝蒂娜是我的赢家。
But I think that I'm going to perversely declare Albertine my winner.
真的吗？
Really?
我觉得是的，让我解释一下。
I think I am, and let me explain.
我正在
I am
感到震惊。
shocked.
我也有点惊讶，甚至可能还没完全被说服，但我确实有一套自己的理由。
I'm a little shocked too, and possibly not fully convinced, but I do have I do have an argument.
在这一卷的最后几页里，叙述者坦白说他困住了另一个女人，对的。
At the end of this volume, in the final pages, the narrator reveals that he has trapped another woman, and Yes.
他现在和另一个女人在一起，还聊到哪怕自己已经忘了阿尔贝蒂娜，他却还是在重蹈覆辙——这又一次印证了我们之前聊过的“替身”的说法。
He is keeping another woman, and he talks about how even though forgetting has overtaken Albertine, he nevertheless is replicating these patterns, yet another double to to continue our earlier conversation.
明白。
Mhmm.
好吧。
Okay.
但另一个女人只占了寥寥两段，根本不值一提。
But that other woman gets like two paragraphs, and is nothing.
而艾伯丁却撑起了整部小说的大半篇幅。
Whereas, Albertine is most of a novel.
所以我觉得她以一种奥维德式的方式赢了，她的名字会被永远铭记。
So I think that she has won in a sort of Ovidian way, like her name will be remembered forever.
是的
Yeah.
因此，如果不是因为那几段文字，他只是简略提及了另一段似乎同样让他着迷的恋情，但那段恋情几乎没有任何展开，我不会提出这个观点。
And and therefore, if it hadn't been for that couple of paragraphs where he like just briefly refers to some other love affair that was apparently obsessing him just as much, but that gets basically no airtime, I don't think I would make this argument.
但我认为阿尔贝蒂娜才是那个关键人物。
But I think Albertine is the one.
是的
Yeah.
好吧
Okay.
我同意
I'll buy
它。
it.
因为同样在那一部分，如果我没记错的话，他说他与阿尔贝蒂娜养成的习惯如此强烈，以至于他无法以任何其他方式去爱。
Because also in that section, if I remember it right, he says that the force of the habits that he developed with Albertine mean he can't love any other way.
对。
Right.
而且他摆脱她的整个方式，实际上是在寻找阿尔贝蒂娜的影子。
And like his whole way of moving on is actually seeking echoes of Albertine.
比如，我认为，他忘记阿尔贝蒂娜的方式，实际上恰恰是通过记住她。
Like, I think even, like, his way of forgetting Albertine is remembering Albertine, actually, in a way.
所以我认为她赢了。
So I think she wins.
好吧。
Okay.
你的赢家是谁？
Who's your winner?
是的。
Yeah.
而且她确实逃离了他。
And and she did escape him.
哦，她确实做到了。
Oh, she did.
是的。
Yeah.
这也对。
That's also true.
她
She
是的。
Yeah.
她是在自由中去世的。
She died in freedom.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
她是你的赢家，艾玛。
She's your winner, Emma.
我被说服了。
I'm compelled.
你要买它吗？
You're buying it?
是的。
Yeah.
我要买它。
I'm buying it.
我的赢家没那么有吸引力，但我觉得更明显。
My winner is less compelling, but more obvious, I think.
我的赢家是奥黛特。
My winner is Odette.
啊，好的。
Ah, okay.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
她确实赢了。
She's definitely won.
但请告诉我们听众，如果他们有一段时间没读过这个故事了，为什么她赢了。
But tell our listeners, in case they haven't read this for a while, why she has won.
所以，奥黛特，吉尔贝特的母亲，曾经是斯旺的妻子。
So Odette, mother of Gilbert, formerly wife of Swan.
在这个故事的这部分，她是福舍维尔男爵夫人。
Now in this part of the story, she's the wife of monsieur Baron de Forcheville.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以她嫁入了一个非常优秀的贵族家庭。
So she's made an excellent aristocratic marriage.
她还成功利用了女儿和圣路易斯的爱情纠葛——吉尔贝汀·圣路易斯，嗯。
And she has also succeeded in exploiting the love trials of her daughter and Saint Louis, Gilbertine Saint Louis Mhmm.
以此操控圣路易斯，让她继续过上惯常的奢华生活。
To manipulate Saint Louis into keeping her in the manner to which she's accustomed.
所以我认为我们最后看到她的画面，是她在晚宴上闪闪发光，浑身佩戴着红宝石。
So I think the last the last the last image we have of her is like glittering at dinner parties, dripping in rubies.
叙述者说，你知道，她已经五十岁了。
And the narrator's like, you know, she's 50.
有些人甚至私下传言她可能已经六十岁了，但她依然在社交圈中光彩照人、魅力非凡。
Some people even thought whispered that she might be 60, but she still looks as just dazzling and fascinating as ever on the social scene.
无论发生什么，无论世事如何变幻，奥黛特总能崛起。
And no matter what happens, no matter how the kaleidoscope turns, Odette rises.
所以她才是真正的赢家。
So she is the winner.
是的。
Yeah.
你，我的意思是，你说得对。
You I mean, you're right.
所以奥黛特现在已经赢了两卷，我想。
So Odette has now won two volumes, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
她最终胜出了。
She comes out on top.
是的。
Yeah.
以一种有点愚蠢的方式。
In a kind of stupid way.
是的。
Yeah.
以一种肤浅的方式，或者说是讽刺的方式，但她确实赢了。
In a sort of facile way or like an ironic way, but she does.
是的。
Yeah.
然而。
Nevertheless.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我完全还是觉得，就像斯万在第一卷里说的那样，她自己其实有点傻，而这恰恰帮助她赢得了胜利。
And I totally still think, as actually Swan said about her in the first volume, that she herself is kind of stupid, that's also what helps her to win.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这很傻，而且好像所有事情都成了她的工具，这一点我们之前讨论过，是的。
It's it's stupid and sort of like everything is instrumental for her, which we discussed Yeah.
我认为是在第三集。
In episode three, I think.
但你的输家是谁？
But who was your loser?
好的。
Okay.
我有一个主要输家和一个亚军输家。
So I had a main loser and a runner-up loser.
好的。
Okay.
我的亚军输家是威尼斯。
My runner-up loser was the city of Venice.
啊，那也在我的亚军输家名单上。
Ah, that was on my runner-up loser list too.
好的。
Okay.
威尼斯这座城市是亚军输家。
The city of Venice is a runner-up loser.
是的。
Yes.
继续。
Continue.
因为
Because
在整个阅读过程中，叙述者一直期待着去威尼斯。
the the narrator has been waiting to go to Venice for the entire time that we've been reading.
从第一卷就开始了。
Since volume one.
对。
Yeah.
这一卷中有两件事是我们等待了很久的。
Two things happen in this volume that we've been waiting a long time.
他成为了一名出版作家，并前往了威尼斯。
He becomes a published writer and he goes to Venice.
对吧？
Right?
在这部作品中，威尼斯显得非常令人失望。
Venice is very underwhelming in this text.
花了大约三十页的篇幅。
It takes like 30 pages.
大部分时间，他都在拿它和康佩比较，或者谈论他从巴黎认识的人。
Most of the time, he's comparing it to Compe or talking about people who he knows from Paris.
有几处对运河的优美描写，或者他漫步城市时看到的画作。
There are a couple of nice descriptions of the canal or of him walking around the city and the paintings that he sees there.
你知道，你看到了他对天鹅版画的描述，与现实中真实画作的对比。
You know, you got you got the description of him looking at the Swan's prints versus the actual paintings IRL.
是的。
Yeah.
总的来说，这完全让人失望。
In general, it's totally underwhelming.
但那个天鹅版画和实物的对比其实是在帕多瓦。
But also, that that Swan's prints versus IRL, that's in Padua.
所以...
So
哦。
Oh.
哦，天哪。
Oh, shit.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以，没错，就是这样。
So, yeah, exactly.
威尼斯并没有完全完蛋。
Venice is not totally lost.
我根本没注意到。
I didn't even notice.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
威尼斯在我可能失败的地方列表上。
Venice is on my list of potential losers.
但你的真正失败者是谁呢？
Who's your real loser though?
那只是你的亚军失败者。
That was your runner-up loser.
我的真正失败者是Swan。
My real loser was Swan.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
这真是个不错的例子。
That's a good one.
因为这真的伤透了我的心。
Because it actually broke my heart.
我非常喜欢Swan，就像这个文本中的许多其他角色一样。
I was quite fond of Swan, as many other of the characters in this text are.
还有他的女儿Gilbert，尽管她活泼、酷炫、机智，正是他希望她成为的样子，却完全拒绝了他。
And his daughter, Gilbert, even though she's kind of like fun and cool and witty and etcetera, in the way that he would have hoped she would be, has totally rejected him.
在她努力征服的所有社交场合中，她甚至不愿提及自己与父亲的任何关联。
She doesn't even wanna hear any association between herself and her father in all the social settings that she is trying to conquer.
叙述者回想起Swan曾思考自己死后会发生什么，他以为自己会因为Gilbert而被铭记。
And the narrator thinks back to when Swan was thinking about what would happen after he died, and he thought that he'd be remembered because of Gilbert.
但事实上，并没有。
And in fact, no.
她正在抹去他的记忆。
She is erasing his memory.
所以他所设想的死后留名的方式实际上并没有实现。
So the thing that he thought of for his afterlife has in fact not come to pass.
所以事实上，他就像一个反奥维德式的失败者。
So in fact, he's sort of a loser for like an anti Ovidian reason.
尽管很明显，他确实出现在这部小说里。
Even though, obviously, he's in the novel.
所以，好吧。
So, like, okay.
实际上，我之前关于阿尔贝蒂娜的说法也适用于斯万，但小说中对他的记忆的处理方式非常令人心酸。
So actually, like, the the point I made about Albertine applies to Swan as well, but the way his memory is being treated diegetically is very sad.
是的。
Yeah.
这非常忧郁而动人，没错，这就是他成为我的路德教徒的原因。
It's it's very melancholic and touching, and, yeah, that's why he's my Lutheran.
你呢？
What about you?
嗯。
Mhmm.
你
Do you
想再多说说威尼斯吗？
wanna say anything more about Venice?
我不想。
I don't.
只是那个部分，是这一卷中唯一让我觉得‘好吧’的部分。
Just that that was, like, the part of the the only part of this volume that I was like, okay.
而且篇幅也不长。
And it wasn't long.
并不让人觉得负担，但它就是没有像这一卷其他部分那样打动我。
It wasn't onerous, but just it just didn't it didn't get me the way the rest of the volume did.
我的失败者是工人阶级，因为基本上，他们只是被绑架、被引诱、被不尊重地对待，而不被当作完整的人来看待。
My Loser is the working class because, basically, they're there to be, like, kidnapped and seduced and treated disrespectfully and not seen as full humans.
哎呀。
So whoops.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实非常真实。
That is very true.
实际上，这真的令人震惊。
It is really harrowing, actually.
就是说，是啊。
It's just like Yeah.
街头女孩、商店女孩、洗衣女工等，在这个世界上，只是被随意掳走的对象。
Street girls and shop girls and laundry maids, etcetera, are just kind of there to be snatched in this nation of the world.
不仅是女孩，还有
Not only girls, but
主要是女孩，而且在这个特定的卷册中是这样，尽管在其他地方，也出现过男仆、侍者和听差。
Well, mostly girls, and it's it's in this particular volume, although elsewhere, it's been like valets and waiters and footmen.
是的。
Yeah.
这看起来就像是她们成了上层资产阶级和贵族的猎物，这真令人绝望。
It just seems like they are the prey of the haute bourgeoisie and the aristocracy, and that's bleak.
所以是的。
So Yeah.
她们是我的失败者。
They're my losers.
确实如此。
Indeed.
那么，艾玛，我们现在到哪儿了？
So Emma, where are we now?
我们目前只是处于这样一个阶段，也就是我们的项目进展到什么程度了？
We're only this is our final where like, what's happening in the terms of our project?
这可以说是我们在该项目上最终的进展状况了？
This is kind of our, like, ultimate what's happening in terms of this project?
我简直不敢相信。
I can't believe it.
只剩最后一卷了。
Only one more volume to go.
那就是
That's where
我们就在这个地方。
we That's where we are.
我们正面对着《追忆似水年华》。
We're we're facing down time regained.
是的。
Yeah.
但从叙事角度来看，发生了什么？
But what's happening in terms of the narrative?
比如，叙述者和他所处的世界现在进展到哪里了？
Like, where are we with the narrator and the world that he's living in?
因此，在本卷的结尾，我们已经得到了一些强烈的暗示，表明社会正处于动荡之中。
So we've had some pretty strong intimations at the end of this volume that society is in flux.
我们看到了我在本集开头提到的那些令人震惊的婚姻，同时在结尾处，吉尔贝特在与成年后的叙述者共处时透露，‘这条路’连接着‘那条路’，而‘那条路’正是贵族之路，这令叙述者大为震惊。
We saw those shocking marriages that I mentioned at the top of the episode, and we also see at the end, Gilbert reveals to the narrator when they're in Compre together as adults, that the way, which is way, connects to the way, which is the way of aristocracy, and that shocks the narrator.
他无法相信这两个地方竟能够调和，而在我看来，这显然是一个隐喻，象征着社会的交融——那些曾经被严格隔离的事物，如今已不再能维持原有的界限。
He can't believe that these two places are reconcilable, and that to me seems like a pretty evident metaphor for the way that society is mingling, and that things that have been kept so strictly separate are no longer to remain that way.
是的。
Yeah.
在结尾处，母亲多次提到，你的祖母若看到人们竟然跨越阶级界限通婚，一定会大吃一惊，诸如此类的细节随处可见。
And there's there's all these bits at the end where the mother is like, oh, your grandmother would have been shocked to see the way that people would marry across cross class boundaries and so on.
对，没错。
So, yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
到了结尾，我们已经身处一个截然不同的世界了。
By the end, we're in a changed world.
叙述者也发生了一些变化。
The narrator has also changed a little bit.
我认为他现在已经是完全的成年人了。
He's, I'd say, a full adult now.
他谈到了自己的衰老过程。
He talks about his own aging process.
当他收到自己的文章时，他说，我的大脑已经足够老化，不再拥有年轻时的敏捷了。
That when he gets his article, he's like, oh, my my brain had aged sufficiently that I didn't have the kind of alacrity of youth anymore.
没错。
So Right.
对。
Right.
是的。
Right.
我认为到这个时候，我们确实已经看到了马塞尔的成熟。
I think we've definitely got Marcel in in maturity at this point.
所以我很期待看到这个故事接下来和最后部分会发生什么。
So I'm interested to see what happens in the next and final part of this story.
我想这期《普鲁斯特好奇》就到这里了。
Well, I think that's it for this episode of Proust Curious.
希望我们激发了你的好奇心。
We hope we've piqued your curiosity.
如果你喜欢这个播客，请告诉你的朋友。
If you like the podcast, please tell a friend about it.
《普鲁斯特好奇》由艾玛·克劳森和汉娜·韦弗主持，由迈克尔·戈德史密斯制作。
Proust Curious is hosted by Emma Claussen and Hannah Weaver and produced by Michael Goldsmith.
你可以通过邮箱 proustcurious@gmail.com 联系我们。
You can reach us at proustcurious@gmail.com.
我们还要感谢我们的合作伙伴《公共书籍》，这是一本关于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。
We'd also like to thank our partner Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.
请访问 publicbooks.org 了解更多。
Check it out at publicbooks.org.
敬请期待下一期的第七卷：追忆似水年华。
And join us next time for volume seven, time regained.
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