盖尔芒特之路/勒科特德吉尔芒特

是的。

Yeah.

因为这就是他们失去联系的时刻。

Because this is the moment then they they've lost that.

他们失去了联系。

They've lost connection.

而且这也很感人，因为他们作为人与人之间的关系也在逐渐疏远。

And it is also it's very moving because they are becoming more disconnected with each other as people as well.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

叙述者几乎——我不知道这是否过度解读了——但一旦她明显病倒，他就几乎把这当成一种背叛，你觉得呢？

The narrator almost I don't know if this is over reading, but once she is visibly sick, he kind of almost takes it as a betrayal, do think?

因为在第二部分的开头，他说，你知道，她还没走，就已经离开了我。

Because in the beginning of the of the second part, he says, you know, she'd left me before she'd even left.

而且这也可能与他成长有关。

And if it is also to do with him growing up.

是的。

Yeah.

他从丹西尔回来时，看到她，而她还没注意到他，他发现她看起来像个陌生人，就像一位普通的老太太。

He gets back from Dancier and sees her when she doesn't see him yet, and observes that she looks like a stranger, just like any old woman.

所以，是的，我认为确实存在一种日益加深的疏离感。

So yeah, I do think there's a growing detachment.

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些形式的距离和疏离，最终在她临终时得到了再现。

There's all these forms of distance and detachment, and then replicated in her dying.

我想，这可以说是这一转变的关键时刻。

And I suppose that you could say that that is this is the pivotal moment for that.

嗯。

So Mhmm.

他们失去联系不仅具有象征意义，而且在那一刻也令人深受触动。

Their loss of connection is so symbolic as well as being really affecting in the moment.

叙述者写道：我祖母再也听不见我了。

The narrator writes, my grandmother could no longer hear me.

她不再与我沟通了。

She was no longer no longer in communication with me.

我们已不再面对面，无法彼此听见。

We had ceased to stand face to face to be audible to one another.

我继续呼唤她，在空寂的夜里，我感到她的呼唤也一定在四处飘荡。

I continued to call her, sounding the empty night in which I felt that her appeals also must be straying.

仿佛我们早已成为我任其迷失在幽灵世界里的挚爱幽灵。

It seemed as though we're already a beloved ghost that I had allowed to lose herself in the ghostly world.

我独自站在乐器前，徒劳地一遍遍重复着：祖母，祖母，就像那个被遗弃的人，独自重复着亡妻的名字。

And standing alone before the instrument, I went on vainly repeating, grandmother, grandmother, as obvious, left alone, repeats the name of his dead wife.

真让人难过。

So sad.

所以

And so

你觉得

you think

关于他们在第二卷中敲门和进行特殊交流的事。

about them knocking and having their special communications in volume two.

对。

Right.

但即使在他们身处巴贝克期间，他们也渐行渐远。

But even even during their time in Baabek, they draw further apart.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们从敲门这种状态开始，然后他发现了这个世界。

So they start from this place of knocking, and then he discovers the world.

接着，他去拜访了在巴贝克时结识的一个人，而她却不在身边。

And then here he is visiting one of the people he had befriended in Babec and away from her.

我也觉得他把自己比作俄耳甫斯，并把祖母放在恋人位置上，这非常有趣。

I also find it really interesting that he compares himself to Orpheus and puts his grandmother in the place of a lover.

我认为这里部分发生的是从家庭转向恋人的过程。

And I think part of part of what's happening here is the move from family to lovers.

俄耳甫斯独自一人离开了。

Orpheus left alone.

呃。

Ugh.

这真的只是

It's just really

是的。

Yeah.

太感人了。

It's so moving.

关于这一点令人动容。

Moving about it.

是的。

Yeah.

我在空寂的夜里继续给她打电话。

I continued to call her in the empty night.

她的呼唤一定也很奇怪。

Her appeals also must be strange.

所以，她会回应，而他却听不见她的声音。

So the idea that she'd be calling back and he just can't hear her.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，毫无疑问，让他更显悲情的是，他无疑是对的。

And I mean, I in in doubtless, what's what makes it even more poignant is that doubtless, he was right.

你知道吗？

You know?

毫无疑问，她正对着电话呼唤他，但他们的声音就是无法彼此传达。

Doubtless, she was at her telephone calling to him, but their voices just couldn't reach each other.

哦，这非常感人。

Oh, it's very moving.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我想这也是因为在这种时刻，打电话并不是一种常见的行为。

I suppose it's also because the telephone is a less typical thing to use in that moment.

但这种情况可能是一种哽咽着的倾诉。

But this is a kind of it could be sobbing off.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你经常会失去电话连接。

So you lose the lose phone connection all the time.

就像是，喂？

It's like, hello?

喂？

Hello?

你在火车上听过多少次别人打电话？

How many times do you overhear someone on the train?

你就是觉得，别这样。

You're just like, no.

别在火车上打电话。

Don't make phone calls on the train.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我在火车上。

I'm in the train.

是的。

Yeah.

但在那个特定的历史时刻，伴随着电话的出现，以及他看待这些日常事物的方式和写作方式，这一切变得如此悲伤而又美丽。

But out of that, in this particular historical moment of of the telephone, but also through his through his way of writing, through his way of thinking about these everyday things made it so so sad and so beautiful.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这并不是要把我们的阅读体验简化为一句精辟的话，但这本书的很多内容都是关于一些极其普通的事物。

I do think, I mean, that's not to reduce our reading experience to one pithy statement, but a lot of this book is about really ordinary things

嗯。

Mhmm.

却被以一种非凡的方式审视。

And looked at in an extraordinary way.

是的。

Yeah.

死亡始终贯穿其中。

With like death underwriting the whole thing.

始终被死亡所隐含。

Always subtended by death.

我们所有人，艾玛，其实都一样。

Just as are we all, Emma, really.

确实如此。

Indeed.

然而却在笑。

And yet laughing.

正是如此。

That's exactly it.

这是第二卷那种凄凉的笑声。

The bleak laughter of volume two.

我们真的只是在重复它。

We're just replicating it truly.

但你知道，那并不是全部，这卷书不只是凄凉和笑声。

But, you know, that but that's not all it's not just bleakness and laughter in this volume.

还有一种第三种状态，我觉得我一时找不到合适的词来形容，但它是一种审美沉思的状态。

There's also this third mode, which I feel like I can't quite find the right word for it, but it's sort of a mode of aesthetic contemplation.

你知道我在说什么吗，艾玛？

Do you know what I'm talking about, Emma?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

如果我们对同一件事达成共识，那么确实存在一些令人愉悦的描述性时刻，因为能感受到叙述者在观察中获得乐趣。

If we're agreeing on the same thing, there are these descriptive moments that are really pleasurable also because there's a sense that the narrator is taking pleasure in observation.

而且他还用完全出人意料的隐喻性语言来描述一些相当平常的事物，这种跨感官的奇妙并置——将不同领域的视觉、听觉和感受交织在一起——令人着迷。

And also that he's, yeah, describing something relatively commonplace in completely unexpected metaphorical language, and there's just sort of fascinating, almost synesthetic juxtapositions of different sights and sounds and sensations from one realm to another.

我最喜欢的一些例子是，他有一种倾向。

And some of my favorite examples of this are, he has a tendency.

我挑了几个例子供我们分析，但我想说，这种风格在之前的卷中就已经开始了。

I we I've picked out a couple examples for us to look at, but I would say it it already had started in previous volumes.

他喜欢把人物描述成水生生物。

He loves to describe people as aquatic beings.

我们之前已经讨论过宁芙仙女了，对吧？在上一集中，但似乎他对社会有一种特别的迷恋，将其视为某种水族馆或水神的表演。

We'd already talked about the nymphs, right, in our last episode, but there seems to be a real fascination with society as a sort of aquarium or a play of water deities, I guess.

我只想说，你还记得他是某家水公司的投资人吗？

Which can I just say, she remember that he is he's an investor in a water company?

我

I

确实，我忘了。

indeed, I forgot.

所以他本身就是富有的。

So he's just independently rich.

因为他投资了水产业。

Because of his water investments.

没错。

That's right.

但显然，他在水产业上不仅有经济上的投资，还有诗意上的投入。

But he's also, you know, poetically invested in the water company evidently.

在这一卷的早期，他就曾在歌剧院经历了一幕我们之前提到过的戏剧性场景，那时他再次见到了劳鲍玛，并出乎意料地重新评估了她。

One of these happens really early in this volume when he's at the opera in that sort of theatrical scene that we had already mentioned at the where he sees La Bauma again and reevaluates her, much to his surprise.

但说实话，从我的角度来看，他重新评估阿拉巴马的这段情节，相比之下远不如他仰望上方包厢里满座的上流社会那样令人印象深刻，或者我们该怎么称呼那些地方？

But honestly, to me, his reevaluation of Alabama, this is my perspective, is forgettable compared to the way that he sees the the stalls full of high society above him, or what do we call them?

上方包厢里满座的上流社会。

The boxes full of high society above him.

我来读一小段摘录，这样你们就能明白，这些地方是如何变成水之王国的。

I'll read just a short excerpt so that you can see how they turn into watery kingdoms.

在他们这一侧，是乐队席位，一群凡人永远被隔绝在透明而朦胧的领域之外，而那领域在某些地方以其盈满的表面作为边界，水仙女清澈如镜的双眼便映照其中。

On this side of them began the orchestra stalls, a boat of mortals forever separated from the transparent shadowy realm to which at points here and there served as boundaries on its brimming surface, the limpid mirroring eyes of the water nymphs.

对于岸边的折叠座椅，包厢中那些怪物的形体，便以简单的光学规律被投射在这些眼睛的表面上，依照入射角的原理，正如我们对待外部现实中的两类事物时一样——我们知道它们没有任何哪怕最原始的灵魂，足以与我们自身类比，若向它们微笑或投以认出的目光，我们自己都会觉得疯狂，那就是矿物，以及我们未曾结识过的人。

For the folding seats on its shore, the forms of the monsters in the stalls were painted upon the surface of those eyes in simple obedience to the laws of optics, and according to their angle of incidence, as happens with those two sections of external reality to which, knowing that they do not possess any soul, however rudimentary, that can be considered as analogous to our own, we should think ourselves mad if we addressed a smile or a glance of recognition, namely minerals and people to whom we have not been introduced.

艾玛，你能稍微解释一下他这段话的意思吗？

Emma, can you paraphrase a little bit what he's saying?

因为我觉得这其实是个极其精彩的笑话，但我担心这句话太长，可能让我们的听众迷失了。

Because I think that this is really a spectacular joke, but I'm afraid that the length of that sentence may have lost our listeners.

换句话说，你说剧院就像一片海景。

Effectively, you're saying that the theater is a seascape.

是的。

Yes.

然后岸边还有一些生物。

And then there are kind of creatures on the shore line.

不是吗？

No?

这些生物是被映照出来的吗？

Who are kind of mirrored?

是的。

Yes.

在那些眼睛里。

On the eyes.

对。

Yeah.

在眼睛里。

On the eyes.

但把它们认出来会是个错误。

But it would be a mistake to recognize them.

嗯，把它们当作真实的存在来认出来确实是个错误，是的。

Well, it it would be a mistake to recognize them as the real beings Yeah.

因为它们实际上是镜像，而不是真实的存在。

Because because they are in fact mirror images and not real beings.

于是他开了个玩笑，说你基本上不会向镜像介绍自己，因为它没有灵魂。

And so then he makes this joke that you you wouldn't introduce yourself basically to a mirror image because it doesn't have a soul.

如果你向镜像介绍自己，那你简直就是疯了，而这里没有灵魂的东西是

You'd be like a lunatic if you were to introduce yourself to a mirror image, and and the things that do not have any souls here are

说说看。

Name me.

矿物。

Minerals.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是矿物，以及我们尚未结识的人。

That's Minerals and people to whom we have not been introduced.

但这非常复杂。

But it's deeply complicated.

就像你实际上正处于句子的恍惚状态时，要跟上一个命题到下一个命题并不难，但要真正总结它却变得极其复杂，尽管我觉得这个笑话的妙处几乎立刻就能感受到。

It's like actually really quite as as you're, yeah, as you're in the sort of fugue state of the sentence, it it's easy enough to sort of follow one proposition to the next, but then to summarize it actually becomes fiendishly complicated even though the delight of the joke, I think, is apparent for me almost immediately.

但接着去思考那些与真实眼睛相关的水下光学难题。

But then to actually think of the underwater optical troubles that are also optical troubles that have to do with with literal eyes.

是的。

Yeah.

这一切真的相当令人困惑。

It's all really rather confusing.

《普鲁斯特的好奇心》由公共书籍合作推出，这是一家在线思想、艺术与学术杂志。

Proust Curious is brought to you in partnership with Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

您可以在 publicbooks.org 找到我们。

You can find us at publicbooks.org.

那就是 publicbooks.org。

That's publicbooks.org.

要为 Public Books 捐款，请访问 publicbooks.org/donate。

To donate to public books, visit publicbooks.org slash donate.

到目前为止，我们讨论了社会层面、情感层面和文学层面，但这本著作也具有很强的政治性，深入探讨了当前的重要事件。

So so far, we have talked about the social, we've talked about the emotional, we've talked about the literary, but this is also a really political volume, which treats extensively important current events.

我的意思是，我提到过欧洲战争的阴影，以及殖民地所面临的类似阴影。

I mean, I've mentioned the shadow of war, the war in Europe as a kind of as kind of shadows of the colonies as well.

在这本书中，反犹主义——这个我们已经提到过的 recurring 主题——变得更加突出。

And in this volume, antisemitism, which is a recurring theme of the and that we've mentioned already, becomes much more prominent.

这是对德雷福斯事件进行反复且深入讨论的结果。

And this is the result of repeated and in-depth discussion of the Dreyfus affair.

此外，还有德雷福斯事件本身，或者支持或反对德雷福斯的人，比如叙述者的朋友圈，以及这些沙龙、贵族社交圈中的立场，因为这成为了一个关乎归属感的重大问题，不仅在朋友群体中，也在巴黎乃至整个法国。

And also who is Dreyfus affair or anti Dreyfus affair, like pro or against Dreyfus among the narrator's acquaintances and in these salon social aristocratic worlds because it becomes an enormous question of belonging both within friend groups and in Paris and in and in France.

那么，汉娜，德雷福斯事件是什么？

So, Hannah, what was the Dreyfus affair?

我们之前提到过，但现在让我们更详细地讲一讲。

We have mentioned it before, but let's go into a bit more detail now.

是的。

Yeah.

我们在上一期节目中简要提过，但德雷福斯事件实际上是第三共和国的标志性事件。

We mentioned it briefly in our last episode, but the Dreyfus affair was really the emblematic drama of the third republic.

第三共和国存在于1871年至1940年之间。

The third republic dated from 1871 to 1940.

它既是政府渎职的典型案例，也是欧洲反犹主义历史中的一个重要节点。

And it remains both a critical example of government malfeasance and a touchstone in the history of European antisemitism.

这里给出一个简要版本，尽管其中还有很多细节没有完全涵盖。

Here's the sort of TLDR version, although there are many twists and turns that are not fully covered here.

1894年，阿尔萨斯犹太人阿尔弗雷德·德雷福斯，时任法国陆军上尉，被错误地判定犯有向德国军队泄露军事机密的罪行，判处终身苦役和流放。

In 1894, the Alsatian Jew Alfred Dreyfus, who was a captain in the French army, was wrongly condemned to a lifetime of forced labor and exile for the crime of having turned over military secrets to the German army.

现在，另一位法国军官费迪南·沃尔森·埃斯特哈齐才是真正的叛徒。

Now Ferdinand Wollsen Esterhazy, another French officer, was the real traitor.

但尽管他被送上法庭，却于1898年1月11日被宣告无罪。

But although he was brought to trial, he was acquitted on 01/11/1898.

两天后，埃米尔·左拉发表了《我控诉》一文，这是一封致共和国总统的公开信，指控政府串通导致埃斯特哈齐无罪释放。

Two days later, Emile Zola published Jacques Juice, an open letter to the president of the republic, which alleged that governmental collusion had led to Esterhazy's acquittal.

尽管这篇文章引发了反犹太和反德雷福斯的示威，但也更公正地促使了对德雷福斯的新民事审判开始。

Though this article provoked antisemitic and anti Dreyfus demonstrations, it also more justly caused a new civil trial to begin for Dreyfus.

1899年，他被释放；1906年，他最终获得正式赦免。

And in 1899, he was released, And in nineteen o six, he was finally officially pardoned.

奇怪的是，他重获自由后再次为法国军队服役，这可不是我会做的决定，但确实如此。

Weirdly, he used his freedom to serve once more the French army, which is not the decision I would have made, but Yeah.

他在第一次世界大战中服役。

He served in the first world war.

是的。

Yes.

所以阿尔弗雷德对这件事的投入非常令人钦佩。

So very sort of impressive commitment to the there from from Alfred.

但这种最终被推翻的冤案，在文学和历史意义上，简直是一出悲剧性的喜剧。

But this this, I mean, a wrongful conviction that is ultimately overturned is sort of a a tragic a tragic comedy in the sort of most most literary historical sense.

但他的定罪和最终的无罪释放，对法国社会产生了深远的影响。

But his conviction and eventual acquittal really had an outsized effect on French society.

这看似是一个人的处境，却因引发的广泛讨论而牵动了整个国家。

It it was a situation that involved one man, but it really involved the whole country because of the amount of discourse it generated.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

它演变成了德雷福斯派和反德雷福斯派的对立。

It became team Dreyfus, team anti Dreyfus.

没错。

Yes.

你真的能在这本书中清楚地看到这一点。

You really, really see that in this volume.

我想，这是一个关于极化现象的典型案例，当它被阴谋论和对政府的不信任所感染时。

It's, I guess, a case study in the kind of polarization Mhmm.

当它被阴谋论和对政府的不信任所感染时，就会出现这种极化。

That can happen when it it gets infected by conspiracy theories, mistrust of government.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但它确实像我们至今仍在经历的某些现象的典型范例。

But it feels really like a kind of paradigm for for some of what we continue to live through.

是的。

Yeah.

尤其是现在。

Especially right now.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以普鲁斯特写了序言。

So Proust was preface.

他是德雷福斯无罪的辩护者，也就是说，他站在了人们常说的历史正确的一边。

He was a defender of Dreyfus' innocence, I e, he was on what people love to refer to as the right side of history.

对。

Right.

他是的。

He was.

他当时在……他当时在……

He was in in He was

而且这一点……

in And this

然而，这卷书主要展现了反德雷福斯事件。

yet, this volume mainly showcases the anti Typhus affair.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这实际上是反德雷福斯派角色的一种真实变体。

So really a real variation of anti Dreyfus characters.

其中一些人反德雷福斯到连其他反德雷福斯事件都反对的地步。

Some of whom are so anti Dreyfus that they're they're also against the other anti Dreyfus affair enough.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

然后叙述者并没有明确表露自己的立场。

And then narrator doesn't really show his cards that clearly.

他就说，我问了这个人关于德雷福斯事件，我们讨论了一会儿。

He's just like, I asked this person about the Dreyfus affair, we discussed it for a bit.

我的意思是，对。

I mean Right.

他的朋友圣路易，可能圣路易和斯万都是德雷福斯派。

His friend, Saint Louis, probably the most Saint Louis and Swan are the Dreyfus.

嗯，还有布洛克，但是

Well, and block, but

布洛克其实并不是。

block is not really.

当然，布洛克。

Of course, block.

他在这个问题上其实别无选择。

Doesn't really have a choice in the matter.

对。

No.

嗯，一个人也是如此。

Well, neither does one.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

True.

根据当时占主导地位的逻辑，而这种逻辑正是叙述者所讽刺的。

According to the logic that prevails at this time, which is which the narrator skewers.

但有一段关于他夜间外出的描写，我认为从中可以清楚看出，叙述者也倾向于支持德雷福斯，但这只是简短提及，主要目的显然不是表达叙述者的观点。

But there's there's one passage I think on his night out with where it becomes clear that the narrator too inclines to support Dreyfus, but it's a very brief mention, and it's certainly the main point is not the narrator's point of view.

相反，德雷福斯事件成为了一种透镜，通过它揭示了某些事物。

Instead, the the Dreyfus affair becomes a lens through which certain things are revealed.

其中之一是贵族阶层和资产阶级潜藏的反犹主义，但另一个则真正关乎我们如何理解历史事件与真相，是的。

One of those things is the latent antisemitism of the noble class and the bourgeoisie, but another is really about how we understand historical events and truth, which is Yeah.

这是一个相当宏大的主题，令人深思。

A pretty massive theme to come up against.

另外，让我印象深刻的是，他们对这场辩论简直上瘾了。

Also, what I was really struck by is how they're kind of addicted to this debate.

辩论者。

Debater.

所以我得用一个挺特别的词来形容它。

So I cannot I've got a funny word for it.

比如，有一个场景是叙述者回到家，发现瓦勒就在他家门外也在争论这件事。

Like, there's one point where the narrator goes home and to Valle outside his house also arguing about it.

所以，这件事不仅影响了这个人的现实生活，也塑造了整个社会的结构。

So the the way that this thing that affects this one man's real life, but also the makeup of a society.

而且，那些弱势少数群体的生活，也成了所有人的一种痴迷，近乎是一种愉快的八卦式沉迷。

And also the, you know, the lives of vulnerable minority population become this obsession and almost like a pleasurable gossipy obsession for everyone else.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，它也带来了真实的政治后果，但确实如此。

I mean, it had real political consequences too, but it it is Yeah.

它只是当天的热门话题。

It is just sort of the topic of the day.

这更像是一个开启对话的引子，而不是真正让人反思不同人群所经历的实际后果。

It's like more of a conversation starter than really something where you're reflecting about the actual lived consequences for different people.

此外，它揭示了贵族阶级和资产阶级强烈的反犹主义。

Also, what it does reveal is the intense antisemitism of the noble class and the bourgeoisie.

那些平时可能从未如此激烈表达过反犹情绪的人，竟能如此轻易地调动起这种情绪。

How casually and easily those who might have never expressed it so virulently in other circumstances are able to draw on it.

我的意思是，这本书里有一些非常令人震惊的片段，尤其是我们可以想想奥黛特，斯万夫人，她嫁给了一个犹太丈夫。

I mean, there's some really shocking shocking parts in this in this volume, I would say, especially, we could also think about Odette, madame Swan, who's who's married to a Jewish husband.

她利用德雷福斯事件引发的反犹情绪来巩固自己的社会地位。

And she really instrument instrumentalizes the antisemitism provoked by the Dreyfus affair to to shore up her state her social status.

她变得激烈反对德雷福斯，只是为了维持自己在朋友中原本就略显不稳的地位。

She becomes passionately anti Dreyfus so that she she can maintain her already slightly precarious position in with her friends.

在上一集中，我想我们讨论过奥黛特是个时尚达人。

And in previous in the previous episode, I think we talked about how Odette is she's a person of fashion.

是的。

Right.

她会非常灵活地根据潮流改变自己的风格。

She changes her style quite deftly depending on what is the trend.

是的。

Right.

这体现在你拥有什么样的花、瓷器和衣服上。

And when that's what flowers and crockery and clothes you have.

是的。

Right.

这是一方面。

That's one thing.

但如果你对整个群体的态度也是如此，那就大不相同了。

But then it's if it's how you feel about a whole group of people, it's pretty different.

我的意思是，有一段文字描述了这种情况的发生。

I mean, there's this passage which describes this happening.

斯万夫人得知我提到了德雷福斯事件后，开始担心丈夫的种族背景会被用来针对她，于是恳求他再也不要提及囚犯的清白。

Madame Swan, seeing that I mentioned to the Dreyfus case, had begun to assume and fearing that her husband's racial origin might be used against herself, had besought him never again to allude to the prisoner's innocence.

当斯万先生不在场时，她甚至更进一步，公开表达最炽热的民族主义情绪，而这只是效仿了那位夫人——在她身上，原本潜伏的中产阶级反犹主义已被唤醒，并发展成一种狂热的愤怒。

When he was not present, she went further and used to profess the most ardent nationalism, in doing which she was only following the example of madame in whom a middle class antisemitism, latent hitherto, had awakened and grown to a positive fury.

斯万夫人凭借这种态度，赢得了加入几个新兴的反犹主义女性团体的资格，并成功结交了多位贵族成员，因为这里你还能看到一点：对德雷福斯的支持或反对，竟成了跨越以往不可逾越的社会壁垒的纽带。

Madame Swan had won by this attitude the privilege of membership in several of the women's leagues that were beginning to be formed in antisemitic society and has succeeded in making friends with various members of the aristocracy because that's the the other thing that you see here is that it becomes such a bond between those who are Dreyfus, pro Dreyfus, anti Dreyfus that it can transcend previously unbreachable social barriers.

奥黛特因为成为狂热的反犹主义者，从而结交了贵族朋友。

And Odette can make aristocratic friends thanks to becoming a raging anti Semite.

对。

Right.

而以前，她因为曾是交际花而被排斥在外，如今却仅仅因为民族主义就能打入这些圈子。

Whereas before, she was excluded because of having previously been a cocoat, now she can penetrate those circles just because of nationalism.

所以，这又回到了我们上一卷讨论过的万花筒现象。

So again, this is it's it's back to the kaleidoscope we discussed in the last volume

是的。

Mhmm.

不同的事物变得突出，而其他晶体则相应退隐。

Where different things come to prominence and other crystals, as it were, recede.

因此，我们看到社会的视角正在发生变化。

And so here we see the sort of optics of society shifting.

她曾经属于半上流社会这一点不再那么重要，相反，她所说的话是否符合人们的期望变得更为关键。

It no longer matters as much that she was once of the demi monde, and instead it it matters much more that she says the things that people want to hear.

另一方面，查理斯的情况则完全不同。对于奥黛特来说，这一切都过于明显地带有功利性，以至于很难当真，尤其是她还有一位犹太丈夫——这本身也是一种功利性的选择。

Charlies on the other hand has a much more I mean, for Odette, it's so transparently instrumental that it's kind of hard to take seriously, particularly because she does have a Jewish husband, which is also an instrumental choice.

对吧？

Right?

这一切对她来说都是功利性的。

All of this is instrumental for her.

是的。

Mhmm.

但查尔斯的观点极其激烈。

But Charles' opinion is just wildly virulent.

他曾在薇巴黎夫人家中遇到过布洛克，或者更准确地说，曾与布洛克有过交集。

Having met Bloch at Madame de Vie Paris's house or and really having crossed paths with Bloch is maybe more accurate.

在叙述者解释了布洛克是谁之后，他向叙述者询问了更多相关信息。

He asks the narrator for more information after the narrator explains who this person Bloch was.

查尔斯说：‘如果你想了解生活，偶尔在朋友中结交一个外国人，倒是个不错的主意。’

Charles says, it is not a bad idea if you wish to learn about life, to include among your friends an occasional foreigner.

我回答说，那是法国人。

I replied that was French.

确实如此，查尔斯先生说。

Indeed, said messieur de Charles.

我以为他是个犹太人。

I took him to be a Jew.

是的。

Yeah.

这香味太浓了。

It's just so fragrant.

这香味太浓了。

It's so fragrant.

查尔斯接着建议，布洛赫可能会为他表演一些异域风情的节目，以展示他作为外国人的奇特之处。

Charlez, he goes on to suggest that Bloch might do an exotic performance for him to sort of demonstrate his foreignness as a as a spectacle.

这是一个完全怪异的段落，最后萨鲁说，他甚至可能顺手给他的老妇人几记重拳，或者像我老保姆说的，打他那个老妖婆母亲。

It's a completely bizarre passage that culminates with Saru saying, he might even, while he was about it, deal some stout blows at his hag, or as my old nurse would say, his hagag of a mother.

所以他是在暗示布洛赫去打自己的母亲，就像他性冲动时那样。

So he's suggesting that Bloch beat up his mother as a He gets hard as sex

和布洛赫的母亲。

with Bloch's mother.

是的。

Yes.

叙述者立刻指出，我觉得他母亲其实已经去世了。

The narrator on point is like, I think his mother actually is dead.

那将会

That would

是一场精彩的表演。

be an excellent show.

对我们来说，我的年轻朋友，这并不会令人不快，因为我们喜欢异域奇观，而痛打那个非欧洲生物，无异于给一头老骆驼应得的惩罚。

It would not be unpleasing to us, a, my young friend, since we like exotic spectacles, and to thrash that non European creature would be giving a well earned punishment to an old camel.

当他滔滔不绝地吐出这些可怕、近乎疯狂的言辞时，夏多先生紧紧捏着我的手臂，疼得我直吸气。

As he poured out this terrible, almost insane language, Monsieur de Chardeau squeezed my arm until it ate.

我的意思是，它确实是。

I mean It's it's it is.

我的意思是，这简直完全疯狂。

I mean, it's completely it is almost insane.

它实际上，我要说，它真是

It it actually, I'm gonna say it's

彻底疯了。

fully insane.

我读这段的时候大喊了出来。

I was screaming when I read this.

就像我们看到他陷入这种关于骆驼的奇异幻想中一样。

Like, the way that we get he travels into this bizarre fantasy of a camel.

这太可怕了。

It's so horrific.

然而，我认为普鲁斯特通过夏罗使用这个角色，想表达关于民族主义、身份认同以及谁不被视作真正法国人的深刻见解。

And yet, I think Proust uses Charleuse to say something really important about what really is at the heart of this issue, which is about nationalism and identity and who isn't isn't French.

这还延伸开来，因为夏罗也引入了殖民主义的视角。

And that extends, you know, because Charlez also brings in the kind of colonial viewpoint.

他说，如果我们把塞内加尔人和马达加斯加人带过来，我几乎无法想象他们会真心实意地为保卫法国而战，这很自然。

He says, if we bring over Senegalese and Malagashis, I hardly suppose that their hearts will be in the task of defending France, which is only natural.

他本质上是在说，既然你不认为德雷福斯或其他任何他不视为真正法国人的人是法国人，那又何必以叛国罪起诉他们呢？

He's basically saying that, you know, why even prosecute Dreyfus for pre for treason or any other person who he doesn't count as truly French?

对。

Right.

这里有一个奇怪的转折，他其实并不反德雷福斯，因为他根本就不认为德雷福斯是法国人。

It it it there's this sort of bizarre this bizarre turn where he's actually not anti Dreyfus because he just doesn't consider him French at all.

就好像德雷福斯根本低微到不值得查理斯去反对他一样。

It's like he's so beneath Charles' notice that it's not worth being anti Dreyfus.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

在这个二十世纪之交的民族主义熔炉中，你确实能看到后来几十年所发生事情的先例。

And this in this kind of crucible of nationalism of the turn of the twentieth century, you really see the precedence for what happens in later decades.

这无论是从反犹主义还是从殖民主义的角度来看，都真的非常可怕。

And it's it's it's really, really horrifying both from a kind of antisemitism and from a from a colonial point of view.

是的。

Yeah.

德雷福斯事件在本卷中揭露的第二件事是：即便是一件从世界历史角度来说相对简单的事件——也就是一名无辜者被冤枉定罪的事，背后也藏着值得深思的问题。

And the second thing that the Dreyfus affair really reveals in this volume is the way that even with events that as actually relatively simple, world historically speaking, as the wrongful conviction of an innocent man.

人们探寻真相的途径永远都是片面的，永远都只是更大图景的一部分；在事件发生的当下，没人能真正看清全貌，只有在事后复盘时才能彻底理解整件事。

The ways of accessing the truth are always only partial and are always sort of part of a larger picture, which it seems that no one really has access to while these things are going on and that can only be fully understood in retrospect.

于是我们看到布洛赫在德·维勒帕里西夫人的沙龙里，拼命挖掘一些他认为对德雷福斯的辩护至关重要的核心信息。

So we end up seeing Bloch trying to get at some kernels of information that seem to him really important to the defense of Dreyfus in madame de Villes Paris's salon.

但叙述者评论道，哪怕他真的从德·诺普瓦先生那里拿到了他拼命追寻的这些“信息碎片”，“这些信息多半也不会比一张X光片更有价值：门外汉总以为病人的病情会明明白白写在X光片上，可实际上，这张片子只是一份研究素材，医生得把它和其他诸多材料结合起来，靠自己的推理能力统筹分析所有信息，才能最终得出诊断结论。”

But the narrator comments that even if he had been able to access these these nuggets that he's mining for from monsieur de Norpoix, quote, it is seldom that these have any more value than a radiographic plate on which the layman imagines that the patient's disease is inscribed in so many words, when, as a matter of fact, the plate furnishes simply one piece of material for study to be combined with a number of others, which the doctor's reasoning powers will take into consideration as a whole, and upon them found his diagnosis.

所以说政治里的真相，当你去找那些消息灵通的人，以为自己马上就能抓住它的时候，它反倒从你身边溜走了。

So to the truth in politics, when one goes to well informed men and imagines that one is about to grasp it, eludes one.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得我们刚才聊的所有内容都能体现出普鲁斯特对政治结构、真相和证据有着极其敏锐的洞察力。

I think everything that we've been talking about does show Proust being extremely acute about political structures and truth and evidence.

而且，这里面还有一种呼应，一场类似的审判正在上演，嗯。

And, you there's a kind of echo, but a version of the trial happening Mhmm.

在这本书中。

In this volume.

我也不禁想到。

I can't help thinking as well.

这也是这本书的黯淡之处的一部分。

This is also part of the bleakness of of the volume.

这并不是一个充满希望的叙述。

It's not it's not a hopeful account.

我的意思是，考虑到后来发生的事情，以及普鲁斯特在回顾这段历史时已经蕴含的层层讽刺，它为何应当是乐观的呢？

I mean, why should it be given given what happens given what happens later and given already the kind of layers of irony that are present in Proust's kind of retrospective account of this?

你知道，考虑到——我认为当他写作时，或者至少当他后来写作时，德雷福斯正在参加第一次世界大战，许多塞内加尔人和马达加斯加人也是如此。

You know, given the I think when he's writing or at least when he's writing later, Dreyfus is serving in the first world war, so are many Senegalese and Malgash people.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

你知道，这一切都卷入了这种可怕而混乱的民族主义浪潮中。

You know, all going into the churn of this hideous and confusing nationalism.

普鲁斯特以他那如激光般敏锐的观察，揭示了所有人所说的话以及其中的虚伪，这本身就是一种介入。

The way that Proust has shown all this with his he he's turned his kind of laser like observation to this and exposes what everybody is saying and all of the hypocrisy, and that is a kind of intervention in itself.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's right.

我认为，小说这种形式确实完美地揭示了围绕德雷福斯事件展开的文化对话中充斥的这些虚伪和逻辑谬误。

I think I think it is it is really saying how, in fact, the novel is in a way the perfect form for exposing these sorts of hypocrisies and logical fallacies that riddle the cultural conversation around what was happening to Dreyfus.

所以，在讨论完我认为《全部我们的厨师》中最长的一卷之后，我们现在进入最后一个部分。

So now we are at our final our final segment after this discussion of, I think, the longest volume of All Our Chefs.

对吗？

Is that right?

我很喜欢，但确实太长了。

Loved it, but it was deeply long.

而且

And

现在是时候问了，这一卷的赢家和输家分别是谁。

this is the time to ask, who are winners and losers of the volume are.

汉娜，你应该先说赢家吗？

Hannah, should you winners first?

我们先说赢家吧。

Let's do winners first.

让我们以一个高点开始，而不是以一个高点结束。

Let's start on a high note instead of ending on a high note.

好的。

Okay.

你认为《盖尔芒特家那边》的赢家是谁？

Who was your winner of Le cote de Guermantes?

我的赢家是奥蕾娜，也就是盖尔芒特公爵夫人，或者说盖尔芒特夫人。

My winner was Aureanne, aka the Duchess de Guermantes, aka madame Guermantes.

我把他看作《在斯万家那边》中的男子公主，而现在她成了公爵夫人。

Saw her as the princess de l'homme in in Swan and Love, and now she is the Duchess.

她是我的赢家，因为她既有美貌又有智慧。

She is my winner because she has beauty and brains.

我不再多说了。

Not gonna say further.

你的赢家是谁，艾玛？

Who is your winner, Emma?

好的。

Okay.

请稍等一下。

Bear with me.

我知道他曾在不同阶段被提名过，但本卷的赢家是叙述者。

I realize he's been a candidate at various points, but my winner of this volume is the narrator.

啊，好的。

Ah, okay.

所以，是的，他仍然是个有点失败的人，尽管他是个怪人，但我们依然喜欢他，原因就在这里。

So, yes, he's still a bit of a loser for all the reasons that we still like him even though he's a weirdo.

比如他因为失望而在一堆地毯里哭泣的那个场景。

Like, that bit where he cries in a in a stack of carpets because he's disappointed.

但我注意到，在这一卷中，人们开始夸奖他了。

But I noticed that in this volume, people are giving him compliments.

比如阿尔贝蒂娜，我们以后会更多谈到她，她说：‘你的眼睛真好看。’

They're like, oh, like, Albertine, who we'll talk about more in future, is like, oh, you've got such nice eyes.

你的头发也很漂亮。

You've got such nice hair.

人们都说：‘是啊。’

People are like, oh, yeah.

你真有魅力。

You're so charming.

似乎每个人都喜欢他。

Everyone seems to like him.

最终，每个人都希望他留在身边。

Everyone ultimately seems to want him around.

他成功地融入了那些自童年起就让他着迷的环境。

He's succeeding in penetrating these environments that he's been fascinated by since childhood.

他表现得很好。

He's doing well.

他赢了。

He's winning.

即使他花几个小时欣赏埃斯蒂亚斯，还深夜为你做一顿饭，他们也容忍了这种行为，这带来了极大的社交尴尬，而他却完全 oblivious。

They even tolerate it when he spends, like, hours admiring Estias and makes a whole dinner for you late, which is just, like, so the social discomfort of that and his total obliviousness.

总之，好吧。

Anyway, okay.

我信了。

I I buy it.

我信了。

I buy it.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他现在势头正猛。

He's he's got momentum, I feel.

他现在势头正猛。

He's got momentum.

你的失败者是谁，艾玛？

Who is your loser, Emma?

好吧。

Okay.

我为此纠结了很久，因为候选者太多了。

So I agonized about this because there's so many candidates.

但我的失败者是。

But my loser is.

是的。

Yes.

一个好输家。

A good loser.

继续。

Continue.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他太令人厌恶了，而且明显如此。

Because he is so odious And so transparently so.

他太虚伪了。

He's so he's so two faced.

他走在街上遇到叙述者时，明明彼此很熟，却装作不认识。

The way he blanks the narrator in the street even though they know each other well.

他本该和叙述者的父亲是朋友，却不愿投票支持他进入学院。

The way he's supposed to be friends with the narrator's dad, but he's not gonna vote him into the academy.

然后他也渐渐消失了。

And then he just kind of drops off as well.

因此，由于他与文·韦尔格的关系，他属于那个群体。

So because of his connection with Vin Verges, he's part of that group.

但后来他只是偶尔被顺带提起一下。

But then he's just a kind of name mentioned incidentally late later on more.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

所以他也是一个极其傲慢自大的人，实际上根本不属于上流社会。

So he's also this incredibly pretentious and pompous man who is not really in high society anyway.

虽然这未必是我们自己的价值标准，但这些正是他成为我本卷最讨厌的人的原因。

Not that that's necessarily our value system, but, yeah, those are the reasons why he is my loser of the volume.

公平。

Fair.

只公平。

Only fair.

你呢？

What about you?

你的失败者是谁？

Who's your loser?

我的失败者是……等等看。

My loser is wait for it.

我有个真正的重磅炸弹要揭晓。

I have a real shocker on deck.

还有，

Also,

奥莉安。

Ohrianne.

想过一个

Thought about a

作为潜在的输家，实际上。

as a potential loser, actually.

所以当你说到她是赢家时，我就想，好吧。

So when you said she was the winner, I was like, okay.

我给她一个很随意的理由，说明她为什么是赢家。

I gave her a really flip answer for why she was the winner.

但我想，在这本书所描绘的价值体系中，而不是这本书本身的价值体系，她显然是赢家。

But I guess I in in the value system that the book is depicting, not necessarily the value system that the book has, she's clearly the winner.

对吧？

Right?

她就是女王蜂。

Like, she's the queen bee.

是的。

Yeah.

但在叙述者以及可以推断的普鲁斯特本人的价值体系中，她是失败者。

But in the value system that the narrator and one can assume Proust actually has, she's the loser.

因为她有一个完全死气沉沉的沙龙，总是同一群人来来往往。

Because she has this salon that's absolutely sterile where the same people come.

他们放弃了有前途的职业，只是穿着晚礼服无所事事地闲逛。

They give up their promising careers to just stand around in dinner dress seemingly.

她有一种空洞而轻浮的残忍倾向。

She has this tendency towards empty and sort of frivolous cruelty.

她确实如此。

She's Yeah.

不断被背叛。

Constantly cheated on.

她的机智仅停留在表面。

Her wit is only at a surface level.

似乎她对那些自己能机智应对的事情，并没有深刻的理解。

Like, it doesn't seem that she profoundly understands any of the things that she's able to be clever about.

而且总的来说，她最终显得像个空洞的怪物。

And just in general, she ends up seeming like a hollow monster.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的，我。

I yeah.

我确实因为类似的原因强烈认为她是失败者。

I I strongly considered her for for being the loser for similar reasons.

只是因为她太刻薄了。

Just because she's so mean.

她太刻薄了。

She's so mean.

而且空洞。

And vacuous.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

空洞的怪物。

Hollow monster.

你看，就是这样。

Here, you've got it.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

这给我们所有人上了一课，关于人气。

That's a lesson for us all about popularity.

别做空洞的怪物。

Don't be a hollow monster.

好的。

Okay.

但是我们现在在哪，艾玛？

But where where are we, Emma?

从整个项目的角度来看，我们进展如何？

How are we doing in in terms of the project as a whole?

我们现在是第三集。

We're episode three.

对。

Right.

所以

So

接下来是什么？

What's coming?

接下来，非常令人兴奋的是，我们将迎来《所多玛与蛾摩拉》第四卷，鉴于这个标题，我认为我们可以期待这又是一次激动人心的阅读，再次呈现万花筒的另一种变体。

Next, very excitingly, we have Sodom and Gomorrah Sodom and Gomorrah volume four, which given the title, I think we can expect to be a thrilling read again in another turn of a different version of the kaleidoscope.

是的。

Yes.

我想这就是我们目前的情况。

I I think that's that's what we have.

而且我必须说，对我来说，仍然在更深地探索未知领域。

And I and I must say, still plunging further into the unknown for me.

对。

Yeah.

我的情况也一样。

I mean, same.

这些对我来说都是全新的。

All of this is is is new to me.

我觉得这将是一个转折点，我们在下一卷的某个时候会超过一半的进度。

I think this is a kind of turning point where we'll be over halfway at some point during the next volume.

真的是一卷了。

Volume, really.

是的。

Yes.

因为所多玛和蛾摩拉之后，篇幅变短了。

Because they get shorter after Sodom and Gomorrah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们现在大概走了一半。

So we're roughly halfway now.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

好了，本期《普鲁斯特好奇》就到这里。

Well, that's it for this episode of Proust Curious.

希望我们激发了你的好奇心。

We hope we've piqued your curiosity.

如果你喜欢这个播客，请告诉你的朋友。

If you liked the podcast, please tell a friend about it.

《普鲁斯特好奇》由艾玛·克劳森和汉娜·韦弗主持，由迈克尔·戈德史密斯制作。

Proust Curious is hosted by Emma Claussen and Hannah Weaver and produced by Michael Goldsmith.

你可以通过邮箱 proustcurious@gmail.com 联系我们。

You can reach us at proustcurious@gmail.com.

我们还要感谢我们的合作伙伴《公共书籍》，这是一本关于思想、艺术与学术的在线杂志。

We'd also like to thank our partner, Public Books, an online magazine of ideas, arts, and scholarship.

请访问 publicbooks.org 了解更多。

Check it out at publicbooks.org.

敬请期待下一期，第四卷《所多玛与蛾摩拉》。

Join us next time for volume four, Sodom et Gomach.